Q: Who is suing who?
A: Jerard Lee brought a case against his former employers Timetric, alleging bullying in the work place. Timetric have consulted their lawyers and are building a defence. They can choose to counter-sue for libel. Now the lawyers of both parties are currently in negotiations at the moment to see if a settlement can be reached - if not, then they will go to court and a judge will hear the case and make a ruling on the case
A: That is NOT true. The case is far from complete and nobody expects something like that to be resolved so quickly because it is not simple. This is going to drag on for a while yet. As this is an on-going legal case that may go to court, I cannot divulge any confidential information regarding the case but this is not trial by media. No agreement or settlement has been reached yet.
What did you actually think Timetric was just going to give Jerard a lot of money just because he kicked up a big fuss online? Just you wait and see what is going to happen very soon.
Q: If there is no bullying, then Jerard has no case - but why is this dragging on then?
A: There is the issue of libel - for Jerard Lee went public with the story online and with Wanbao and he contacted many more media sources both in Singapore and abroad. If someone says something false about you in public, you can sue them for libel. So there are two issues here - bullying and libel.
Q: If Jerard is found guilty of libel, what will happen to him?
A: They can reach some kind of compromise - there is no point in suing a man who is already jobless and broke (who has a 1 year old daughter). There could be a public apology of sorts but this is really down to the lawyers and what kind of deal they strike. Of course, everything has to be done according to the law and the law in Singapore is very clear about the issue of libel. It also depends on what Timetric is willing to accept as a reasonable settlement.
It's just the way the corporate world is kids, grow up. You think you can blackmail any ex-employer for a lot of money by kicking up a big fuss like that online without going through proper channels? What Jerard is doing is nothing short of blackmail - "pay me a private settlement or else I will destroy your reputation." But he played his cards badly by trying to destroy their reputation before they have even started the negotiations so he has nothing to hold them to ransom to, weakening his bargaining position. Watch and learn kids, do not repeat Jerard's tactical errors if you ever want to blackmail anyone.
Q: How long do we have to wait for the final outcome?
A: Hard to say, depends on the the lawyers really.
Q: Why has Jerard disappeared? He was so vocal, then suddenly diam diam?
A: He is following his lawyer's advice, but fear not, you shall hear from him once the case is concluded. Please be assured that Jerard does have a lawyer and has legal advice, he is not trying to anyhow hantam his way through this legal process.
Q: In law, can all workplace bullying can be defended as "Motivation" and "Training"?
A: You can argue till the cows come home about this - about when you cross the line. In this case, it boils down to whether you can prove your case and what evidence you have - and whether it will stand up in court and how a judge would react to, say, that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle cartoon.
Q: There is all this talk about 'evidence' by Amit and Jerard but I haven't seen it. All I see is that youtube video of someone spitting and that's not even Amit and that screen grab of that Ninja Turtle pizza email. What else is there? I want to see.
A: I can confirm that there is a lot more evidence - but I will not divulge the details here. The lawyers of both parties would have seen each other's evidence and they will keep it that way - it is an internal matter for the lawyers and the parties involved to resolve. This is not trial by social media! Once this resolved, then you may see some of that evidence but this is up to the parties involved if they wish to release any of it to the public.
Q: But if Amit or Patel have nothing to hide, then why don't they just release this evidence to the public?
A: In principle, yes - but both parties also have the right to privacy as well and as this is a private matter, they can choose to tell you as much or as little as they like. Right now, both parties have chosen to keep it private after seeking legal advice.
A: I can confirm that there is a lot more evidence - but I will not divulge the details here. The lawyers of both parties would have seen each other's evidence and they will keep it that way - it is an internal matter for the lawyers and the parties involved to resolve. This is not trial by social media! Once this resolved, then you may see some of that evidence but this is up to the parties involved if they wish to release any of it to the public.
Q: But if Amit or Patel have nothing to hide, then why don't they just release this evidence to the public?
A: In principle, yes - but both parties also have the right to privacy as well and as this is a private matter, they can choose to tell you as much or as little as they like. Right now, both parties have chosen to keep it private after seeking legal advice.
Q: Will this case affect Timetric's reputation?
A: Simple answer - no. Not at all. They sell very niche market, very specialized market intelligence reports that cost up to US$5000 a report. This is not a retail product for the mass public, they have a very selective, very targeted clientele in certain industries so whether they thrive as a business boils down to the quality of their product.
Q: Why do you make such a big deal about the lawyer's fees? Are you saying that the legal system in Singapore is corrupt, that as long as you have a lot of money to throw at big lawyers, you can win any case?
A: I am stating a fact: Jerard chose to go down this route in instigating a legal case against his former employers and then going public with his story early in the process. He chose to fight a battle that was going to cost a lot of money when he took on a big MNC Timetric. Singapore's legal system is very fair and it gives him a chance to sue his former employers but by the same token, Timetric also have the right to defend themselves when they kena sued by Jerard.
Of course a Singaporean judge will look at the case and pass a fair judgement (if it ever came to that), but Timetric's lawyers could easily bury Jerard's lawyer with paperwork and Jerard's lawyer probably charges by the hour (unless he is a friend doing Jerard a favour) and pretty soon, Jerard will run out of money to pay his lawyer unless some of his friends help him out. I'm sure it wouldn't come to that as Jerard's lawyer would not lead him into such a situation. If Jerard hadn't gone public with his story, then there would be no libel element to the case and it would've been a lot more straight forward.
Q: Can Jerard approach his MP for help? Or the MOM? Even the police?
A: He has already done all of the above and has received little help from all of the above.
Of course a Singaporean judge will look at the case and pass a fair judgement (if it ever came to that), but Timetric's lawyers could easily bury Jerard's lawyer with paperwork and Jerard's lawyer probably charges by the hour (unless he is a friend doing Jerard a favour) and pretty soon, Jerard will run out of money to pay his lawyer unless some of his friends help him out. I'm sure it wouldn't come to that as Jerard's lawyer would not lead him into such a situation. If Jerard hadn't gone public with his story, then there would be no libel element to the case and it would've been a lot more straight forward.
A: He has already done all of the above and has received little help from all of the above.
Q: Will Timetric punish Amit? Will he kena sack?
Q: How can I help Jerard?
A: Find the guy and give him some money - he has legal fees stacking up from this case. None of this EDMW keyboard warrior bullshit is going to help him pay his bills and he has a baby daughter. Talk is cheap.
Q: How come you have inside information one? Who are you talking to?
A: Both Jerard and Amit have contacted me through my blog and have left comments on my articles on the case. Jerard has gone totally silent and isn't talking to anyone but I am still talking to Amit. I am most happy to talk to the both of them.
Q: Did you know Amit or Jerard before blogging about this case?
No. I didn't know of either of them before this case came to my attention.
Q: Have you worked for Timetric in the UK or are you in anyway connected to them?
Never. I have worked in sales in financial services but Timetric is one of many, many companies in this industry.
Q: Did you know Amit or Jerard before blogging about this case?
No. I didn't know of either of them before this case came to my attention.
Q: Have you worked for Timetric in the UK or are you in anyway connected to them?
Never. I have worked in sales in financial services but Timetric is one of many, many companies in this industry.
Q: Is Amit Indian or British?
A: His ethnicity is Indian, his nationality is British.
A: Nothing. This is between him and his employers Timetric and none of your business. Timetric really don't care what you have to say unless you spend millions on their products every year. If you don't like FTs, you should've been protesting at Hong Lim Park on the 1st May.
Q: What will happen next?
A: Not much. Be patient and wait for the lawyers to work things out and then we will hear from those involved - I will report it on my blog then. It may be a while.
Q: A lot of people come to your blog because of this, right?
A: About three times the normal volume and it is still increasing. Normally I get 5,000 to 10,000 hits a day but now it is more like 20,000 a day and I am attracting brand new readers. I love the fact that people are reading my posts and reacting to it, thank you! This is exciting for me as a blogger.
A: I am on the side of reason. 我帮理不帮亲, that's my ethos.
Q: Why do you care who wins this case then?
A: I have worked in financial sales before and have been in both Jerard's position and Amit's position - I have had really nasty bosses before and I have also had to manage some really difficult people who just weren't selling enough and making all kinds of stupid excuses. So really, I can empathise with them both - that's why the case interests me.
Q: A lot of the people on the forum hate you. Do you care?
A: Many more love me. You can't please everyone in life and I'd rather be controversial than bland.
Q: Can I ask you more questions?
A: Yes, just leave a comment below.
Part 2: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/jerard-lee-vs-timetric-case-part-2.html
Part 3: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/amits-statement-where-has-it-gone.html
Part 4: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/part-4-local-journalists-pov-on.html
LOL, I love your response to the question of " I hate Amit and want him out of Singapore - what can I do?" Hahahaha.....
ReplyDeleteI get the feeling I am addressing a 13 year old on the issue ...
Deleteoh my goodness, Jerard, what have you done? It's like watching a crash-and-burn in slow motion. While reading about this case, I find that it does evoke some levels of sympathy from the masses of the little guys (EDMW etc etc). I mean, it's quite a nightmare scenario and part of 'adult fear' that when you're nice and happy, your company hires a 'ang mo' or 'Indian expat' who proceeds to bully and humiliate you out of your job....
ReplyDeleteBut whoooa man..... what's with the lawsuit? Don't la! Move on, get another job and fast, for goodness sake. Drop the name Jerard and you should be pounding the vitual streets for a job as fast as you can. Even if you win, so what...? This Amit guy can go anywhere if he has a proven track record of making people SELL things. And it's such a generic name! Don't be wallowing in angst while he could be sipping a drink in the Bahamas, for goodness sake. No, no no! If you wanted to bite and take a chunk off his hide, you should have done it BEFORE you tossed in the letter, not after!
Success is the best revenge, go on, bounce back from this and perhaps you can post in this Limpeh blog months later about how you found another job and won some award or something for top sales somewhere else. Just don't keep thinking of yourself as the victim please!
Another lesson of the story is this: beware of whose advice you take.
DeleteYes, I mean seriously, how many of these EDMW fellas are in a position to actually hire this guy? From my guess, most of them are actually small fry aged about maybe 13 - 30s. How many CEOs? Upper management? If you are a big boss towkay, would you be on EDMW? (maybe Sammyboy, more likely bwa ha ha) "I would like to give you money for your lawsuit bro but my pocket money is not enough"
DeleteSo go on, they can carry on with their usual "We hate foreigners, we shall embarrass you by CSI-ing your personal photos" but eventually the company will flatten our hero Jerard and in his own words, if he does not wake up, it would be "another life destroyed".
My advise for the guy is give up this foolishness, just find another job, selling stuff asap. Telemarketer for credit card insurance should do. You just keep making calls, sure can tan jiak one. Who knows?
From what I can gather, what happened was some of the EDMW people were genuinely trying to help - but it was more like, "oh my uncle works in this company and I heard that they were recruiting for XYZ position, I will put you in touch" or "my brother works in this company and maybe you can speak to him to see if they are recruiting at the moment as their business is very good etc". There was no "come work for me , can you start next Monday? I will pay you S$_____ a month and this will match your previous salary". So yes, there is plenty of goodwill and kindness on EDMW that is true, but in terms of REAL job offers? Zilch. Nothing. For the reasons you've pointed out.
DeleteJerard, Jerard, Jerard, such questionable choices, all ruled by emotion. I can't help but judge him as a person, employee, father, husband and son when he chooses to much such decisions. What was he thinking? He's really depressed because his employer laughed at him and made Ninja Turtle jokes? If his superiors were locals, I bet everyone will be calling him out for the joker that he's making himself out to be. I don't want to be unsympathetic about how he got treated at work but is his brain made of cheese for him to think the course of action he took will yield anything good.
ReplyDeleteFor the sake of your wife and child, I hope you make a better man of yourself moving on Jerard. They say in life, you got to choose your battles. This is one battle you should have just took in your stride and left it as that. If you had made a case for the commission, perhaps that might have given you some tangible returns and given your ex-employer some small trouble you can gloat at. But sue them for a manager laughing at you?!? Oh dear!
Correct. I agree with all of the above. He is failing his wife and daughter big time - he is a husband and a father, after all. Who's going to pay the bills in the meantime? I bet you if I set up a paypal account for him in order to collect money from the EDMW forum keyboard warriors to support him called the 'Jerard Lee' fund, it will collect ZERO dollars ZERO cents. Talk is cheap.
DeleteGoodness... this case has spun out of control since I last read it.
ReplyDeleteSeriously Jerard, if you are not happy with the organisation, just get a new job and leave. Keep a good relationship don't burn bridges... you may return one day when Amit is no longer around. Who knows. One good chinese saying: Riding a donkey while looking for a horse (騎驢找馬)
I feel by taking this case to the court is gone a little bit too far if it's just for your pride, I think it's going to be very expensive.
Indeed many Singaporeans are uncomfortable with the in-flux we had for the past few years, but there are also many Singaporeans are just too conveniently blaming, condemning everything and jumping to the anti-FT band wagon too fast, too soon.
If you feel this island is hopeless, then make a plan and action to move. It's the same like any other job. I personally become a FT myself working most of my time in HKG/China/TWN. I think I am doing better by moving out from the small little island (with my family too). It's all about global opportunity nowadays. Try not to draw yourself within a small circle, Patriotism is useless during peace time, you dont need to 'stay back and fight for the holistic cause', our government is not going to create any magic and overturn anything in an instant. What you really need to do as a priority is plan for yourself and family.
Take good care.
Hi Chris, walau you use classical Chinese one hah, lagi cheem.
DeleteI have another Chinese saying for you, whilst your advice is 100% correct, xian zhai sheng mi yi jing zhu cheng shu fan le (sorry at work, not time to type it out in Chinese characters), ie. raw rice grains already cook into white rice - meaning that a threshold has been crossed, an irrevisible change has happened, ie.
1. He has already touted his story to the press both in S'pore and abroad, and some like Wanbao and various websites did run with it.
2. He has been sounding off, making a lot of threats online to his previous employers
You can't 'undo' either of those actions once they are done. This is why he is being kena sued for LIBEL now. If he had sued them for bullying and lost but had not been shouting about it online like that, then damage would be limited to legal costs of the case. But now he go and big mouth and is now paying a big price for his big mouth. Alamak. No wonder even his own lawyer tell him to shut the fuck up and stop going to EDMW forun, now that's why he is totally diam dia mm ga chu xia.
Chris, even if he doesn't dare to take the case to court now, Timetric are now in a position to countersue him for LIBEL. He is in sooooo much trouble now and he realizes it but the silly idiots on EDMW don't realize just how serious the situation is, duh. That's why I am convinced they are a bunch of 13 year olds who need something better to do with their time after school for they are really spouting rubbish.
LIFT, Thank you for the front-row seats to this circus. This case has taught me so much, especially in terms of parenting. Jerard is someone who has grown up believing in the benevolent egg -it has let him down. He clearly wanted to be popular & accepted; his ego couldnt take it when he wasnt, now it has landed him in a quagmire.
ReplyDeleteObviously this guy has been brought up thinking everything must go his way. If it doesnt, throw a tantrum, kick up a fuss, somebody will be there to put it right. At home & school, he maybe only got positive strokes, now getting treated negatively is intolerable. Dont know how he got through NS, must have passed those days in a haze. This incident is a necessary wake-up call for him & all of us.
My pleasure! I am so glad you liked it and I totally agree with you. :)
DeleteLimpeh, Been reading your blog on and off until this case blew through the roof. I still remember when it was just a 1 - 2 page thread on edmw. Read it, lol'ed at it, and moved on.
ReplyDeleteBut it just kept resurfacing on page 1 like a bad penny.
I started reading edmw a few mths ago and while it's a quick source for news, I'm quite convinced that the majority of peeps there are small kids (either in age or in mind or in experience horizons). But got some saving grace la, got some 精英 there.
Anyhoo, the reason for my comment is I think you made a typo:
I am stating a fact: Jerard chose to go down this route in instigating a legal case against his former employees and then going public with his story early in the process. He chose to fight a battle that was going to cost a lot of money when he took on a big MNC Timetric. Singapore's legal system is very fair and it gives him a chance to sue his former employees but by the same token, Timetric also have the right to defend themselves when they kena sued by Jerard.
It should be "former employers".
Yes I do get the impression that a lot of them talked in a very immature manner then it clicked when one of them mentioned 'school project' and I was like, oh. It's a secondary school kid. Duh.
DeleteTypo noted and corrected. Kum siah!
Goodness heavens. Bearing in mind that this is your blog and you solely determine the content that appears on it, can I humbly suggest that we move on from this episode that is really not worth our collective times(and SPH's etc etc.).
ReplyDeleteFrankly I did enjoy your piece about re-introduction of dialects into SG a lot more than this(fun as it was), it did have a lot more in adding some insight into topics that people don't consider but are important from YOUR overseas POV which adds a lot more value vs. the repeated stamping on a guy on e floor from his own doing.
Hi there, thanks for your comment.
Delete1. I am writing about this because people want to read about it (well, not you, obviously) ... but I follow the traffic statistics and it has drawn a lot of people to my blog over the last week.
2. I am so pleased you like my heartfelt piece on Hokkien - kum siah.
3. According to Amit, this case isn't over yet and the conclusion may raise the profile of the case just yet - but perhaps we should all give it a break and talk about it again when the time is right.
4. I would like to think that I am using this story to raise other wider issues - such as how Singaporeans react to FTs in S'pore. Maybe I didn't make that link clear enough and I note your point, thank you.
Hi LIFT, thanks for the hard work in compiling the large amount of information for everyone's benefit! I've gained a lot of insight from your objective analysis of bullying versus slander.
ReplyDeleteJerard Lee IMO made a not-so-wise move in bringing his case to the media and *ahem* EDMW (facepalm!). Agree with you that he should have gone through the appropriate channels. This is very much like the case of those ex-SMRT captains who went on strike as a matter of principle.
Looking forward to more updates from your blog. 帮理不帮亲!
Hi LIFT, thanks for the hard work in compiling the large amount of information for everyone's benefit! I've gained a lot of insight from your objective analysis of bullying versus slander.
ReplyDeleteJerard Lee IMO made a not-so-wise move in bringing his case to the media and *ahem* EDMW (facepalm!). Agree with you that he should have gone through the appropriate channels. This is very much like the case of those ex-SMRT captains who went on strike as a matter of principle.
Looking forward to more updates from your blog. 帮理不帮亲!
Thanks for your comment. I think the moral of the story is that if you have a difficult situation you should always seek proper legal advice from someone who knows what they are doing - such as an experienced lawyer who has dealt with similar cases successfully in the past. What does he do instead? He listens to the kids on EDMW (face palm) and listen to their bad advice when none of them, not a single one of them have so far even given him one dollar towards his legal fees. Groan.
Delete