Monday 20 February 2017

Have I ever explained what I do for a living?

Hi everyone, for today's post, I thought I'd tell you a little about corporate finance and what I do on a daily basis these days. I am really getting into my new job now and am pretty excited - I don't think I've ever mentioned anything about what I do at my company since I've only been in this job since September last year, so if you'd indulge me a little in this post, I'd be talking about myself for a change today. Allow me to explain a little bit about the world of corporate finance and how I fit into what my company does - hopefully it'll be interesting for those of you interested in working in finance.
Time for an economics lessons

There are medium sized companies which are successful businesses and these people need money to scale up. We are not talking about start ups here - rather we are looking at companies which have a proven track record of generating healthy profits for at least a few years and have substantial assets that can be used as collateral. Such businesses have the potential to grow and expand even more aggressively if they have the capital, but when they approach the banks for a loan but the banks either refuse them outright or offer them loans at such a high interest that they is obliged to say no. This is where they turns to the world of corporate finance - we step in and help him create a structure that enables him to raise the finance, but we go further than that: we help him raise the finance so he can focus on the one thing that matters the most: running their successful businesses. A man running a successful bakery chain wants to be able to focus his efforts on his cakes and not worry about raising finance.

So instead of individually asking people to invest in his business, we do that on his behalf by creating a corporate bond to raise that amount for him. We can raise anything from £10 million to £100 million - anything less than £10 million is too little for us to bother with.  You see, such clients falls into a crack between big and small - big businesses who want to raise over £100 million have far more clout with financial institutions and have far less trouble trying to obtain credit from the big banks. When they do, they get far better deals at the negotiating table. Much smaller businesses (such as start ups) can obtain grants from the government or obtain smaller, more modest amounts of money through schemes like crowdfunding. Where does that leave businessmen who are somewhere between the two extremes? There is a gap in the market - traditionally such people would rely on their connections, their relationships to attempt to raise the money but that would mean them spending a lot of time and effort persuading people to invest in their business.
Money makes the world go round.

So we create a corporate bond for them: we create a 'bucket' whereby investors can invest an amount of money (we usually set a minimum, either £50,000 or £100,000 so we are only dealing with serious investors and we don't waste our time with people who are not prepared to commit to a sizable investment) and we go round approaching financial professionals (anyone from IFAs, DFMs, private bankers, fund managers, institutional investors but never individual private investors) and persuade them to invest in the corporate bond. We structure the product in a way that it pays a fixed rate and market it as a fixed income product, so the investor gets a guaranteed return regardless of how well the business performs. Typically, such corporate bonds pay out between 5% to 8% - that's far more lucrative than anything you'll get from the high street banks when interest rates are stubbornly low. Welcome to the wonderful world of securitization, whereby credit is obtained and secured against assets that generate a source of income. We draw up a water-tight legal agreement whereby if the business fails, his business and personal assets will be liquidized to repay the investors of his bonds first before he even sees a penny of it - such legal agreements are enforceable by law and they allow the investors peace of mind when committing to the investment. We do this for clients all over the world.

Now that we have created this 'bucket' in the form of a corporate bond for client, that's when I step in: I am not involved in creating the bond per se, that's mostly for our lawyers. To be honest, the structure for such bonds are fairly standard, they merely take a template and replicate it - it is so straightforward you'll be amazed how easy it is. But here comes the hard part: I have to go round persuading financial intermediaries to put in sizable investments into this bucket - I have to go round selling client's success story. So for example, I have recently convinced a distribution agent in Kent to work with us and he is going to tell his brokers to flog our corporate bonds: each time we manage to get some money for a bond, both the distribution agent and I get a cut - that's when it starts getting interesting for me. I do not deal with private investors: it makes no sense at all for me to do so. My distribution guy in Kent has relationships with over a thousand IFAs in the country, that is why I want to work with him because all I have to do is convince him to use my product and he will then tell his thousands of IFAs all over the country to use my product. So the moment I have a good working relationship with him, I don't have to even lift a finger and my commission will keep flowing.
We are helping successful companies raise finance to expand.

Think about it this way, let's deal with something that everyone can relate to: cakes. Mr Baker clearly makes delicious cakes, would he want to go door to door, trying to sell one cake to one family at a time, or would he rather negotiate a deal with one of the country's biggest supermarket chains with thousands of stores all over the country? If he has such a deal with a big supermarket chain, then just that one client will place an order for thousands of cakes everyday. Mr Baker than doesn't have to worry about trying to sell the cakes to individual customers - he simply focuses his energies on fulfilling the orders for that supermarket chain. Likewise for me, I am trying to get my bond products into the equivalent of 'supermarkets' in the financial services world. I'm not interested in individual investors, because I know that one big distributor will be able to channel millions of pounds of investments my way every month. I manage those relationships - these distributors are constantly be pitched for new products all the time, so I have to make sure that I do not slip to the bottom of their lists, that they are constantly using my bonds instead of my competitors'. That's what I do - I do a mix of business development, sales, marketing and relationship management. My company rewards financially me each time I establish a new relationship with another distributor by giving me a cut of whatever investments they make. And yes, this is potentially very lucrative if I can get my company loads of distributors.

The corporate bond products my company produces are sound and water-tight, I guess the biggest challenge for us is that there are bigger players in the market and we are much smaller than some of the well established players out there. Corporate bonds are nothing new. Imagine if you are a small soft drinks manufacturer, even if your soft drinks taste amazing and you have the most attractive packaging out there, consumers are still used to drinking the big names when it comes to soft drinks like Coke, Pepsi, Fanta and Sprite. Trying to fight for a share of the market when you're up against big names like that is a challenge, but that's when I have to pick my battles. But here's the best part about my job: I only need to negotiate distribution agreements, yet I get commissions on whatever investments are made through those distributors whom I have brought on board. I think the hardest part of the equation would be to persuade the individual investor to make that commitment and invest a sizable sum of money in the bond - well, I don't have to do that thankfully, that is done by somebody one or two links removed from me in the distribution equation.
Hopefully this job will turn out to be very lucrative when the commissions add up.

I know that some distribution relationships will be more successful and lucrative than others - some will bring in a lot of money, others will bring in little or none. As long as I manage to maintain a healthy number of distributors, then I know I will do well out of this as long as some of them bring in some money. The longer I do the job, the easier it will become because I'm like a farmer trying to persuade fruit trees to grow in my orchard: the more fruit trees there are growing, the more likely I am to be able to be able to harvest some fruit. When I first started last September, my orchard was completely empty - now 5 months in, I have a few trees growing. Hopefully by the end of this year, I would have figured out how to do this better and I'd have an orchard full of trees, their branches heavily laden with sweet fruit. There is a steep learning curve of course and I've come an awfully long way in 5 months. My bosses have been quite satisfied with my progress so far, so whilst I do want to prove myself, I don't really feel like I'm under too much pressure at the same time - it's ideal. Even when we have to work to deadlines, nobody has lost their temper yet!

A downside of my job is that we're dealing with so many different bonds - I've had to deal with bonds in very different kinds of sectors. Every time I get a new bond to flog, I have to learn the A to Z of that sector - some are more familiar than others, but still I have to accumulate a vast wealth of knowledge in a very short period of time. From green energy to mining to hotels to tourism - I'm expected to have understand all of these sectors I have to deal with. Once we have raised the full amount for a bond, that's it - it's finished, we've raised our target, we move on to the next project. So all that knowledge that I have accumulated for that sector is suddenly rendered useless the moment we move on to the next bond where I often have to start from scratch. Some people become experts at what they do because they are dealing with the same product for many years - well I don't have that luxury, I'm dealing with a bond invested in a different sector every few months in my job. I constantly have to learn, it's like a learning curve that I can never totally climb - I get to the top of one and then there's yet another one to climb for the next product. Fortunately, I guess that's where the geeky Asian student in me kicks in and I suppose I do know how to study/learn very quickly.
I feel very much at home in the banking world.

So there you go, that's where I am at with my new job. I am enjoying it because I have a nice team and they treat me very well. I actually get along pretty well with everyone! I am grateful for having had this opportunity and I know it is really up to me to make it successful. There is much to learn but I feel confident in my ability to adapt and pick things up quickly enough to do my job well. My bosses do have quite a hands-off approach when it comes to my work, it's very much "get it done soon, let me know if you have any questions" and I'm pretty much allowed to work in peace with very little scrutiny. On one hand, yes I'm grateful I don't have a boss breathing down the back of my neck all the time, on the other hand, I'm 40 for crying out aloud. If you can't trust someone as old as me to work independently, then who can you trust?  Another key reason why I am happy is because I am not trying to do something crazy or try something that I have little experience in - rather, I'm sticking to exactly what I know I am good at and have loads of experience in. Please let me know if you have other questions about working in finance. Many thanks for reading.

31 comments:

  1. Does your company focus on certain specific industries?

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    1. No, we raise funds for anyone, anywhere as long as they are willing to use our services and they meet our criteria. We'll do this for anyone and corporate bonds are used by companies in so many different industries to raise capital when expanding.

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  2. Hi limpeh,

    Your job sounds very dynamic! I like this article a lot because it tells me how interesting your job is and you make it simple enough to understand. How long is the corporate bond duration? Does it work a bit like Private equity?

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    1. It is typically between 3 - 5 years, the longer you park your money for, the higher the interest you get. My most popular product pays 8.5% for 5 years - it's somewhat different from private equity from the liquidity POV, yes you can sell it before the term is due but we'll put the product on the secondary market and appoint a market maker to find a buyer for the product and the price you get on the secondary market is a function of supply vs demand at that point. Whereas with private equity, if it's listed, then you know exactly what the price it is trading at.

      Let's see, I'm about to launch a big marketing initiative that will be pretty much all about whom I choose to target: I had been quite passive and just taking instructions when I started but now my boss is giving me more freedom to operate independently. The next few weeks will be interesting.

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  3. Hi LIFT, I stumbled upon your blog a while ago (the ones on university season) and have been addicted to all your posts ever since then so thanks for sharing your experiences! I will like to ask some advice from you for as a third year NUS student with a humanities degree, I am planning to start applying for my first job soon. The goal is to ultimately work (sales and marketing) and live abroad like yourself so I wonder if there are certain kind of industry/skill set that may increase the likelihood of doing so. You mentioned corporate finance in this post but I understand that you also work with tech companies and even started your own company so I thought it will be cool to hear from you :) cheers!

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    1. Oh yes, the university season series, I enjoyed writing that series of articles.

      I hate to be the bearer of bad news but with an arts & social science degree, you're already at a major disadvantage. It's the worst possible degree to have - trust me, I'm speaking as someone with a degree in geography and French. So it's not like I'm an engineer putting down people who studied the humanities - I went down the same path as you did as I was lured by the scholarships that were dangled in front of me. There were various schemes/scholarships along that way that were designed to attract smart students to study the humanities instead of the sciences and I loved the idea of being a scholar + I followed my heart: I loved the humanities anyway. You're already a 3rd year so it's a moot point - it's not like we can turn back the clock. I graduated as a triple scholar and thought, oh shit now what?

      I fell into sales as there was fuck all I could do with my stupid useless degree (prestigious university, scholar et al) - it was kinda random as I realized I could use my French/Chinese skills to sell in a very monolingual country (the UK) and the geography element of it? Completely useless, never used an iota of it in my workplace. I realized that languages were my forte so I went on to learn more and now I speak 10 confidently, 6 fluently and in my current job, I use French, Welsh, Spanish and German.

      I managed to have worked with tech companies in the past as everyone needs a sales/marketing/PR guru - you can have the best high-tech gizmo in the world but you still need someone like me to make sure the public knows about it and wants to buy it. Here's a picture of me doing just that for Google in Paris 2 years ago: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/google-translate-app-updated-with-20-new-languages-and-super-fast-translation-as-engineer-reveals-10427865.html

      As for what kind of skill set you should pick up, man I have no freaking clue because it's useless for me to say, "hey languages have served me well, madhatter please study 10 foreign languages until you speak them all fluently like me - Google France paid me good money to work in Paris for them because of my language skills". And you'll be like, "but that's impossible! How do I learn 10 languages?"

      You're asking me the wrong question, you see. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

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    2. Part 2: You know I wouldn't leave you hanging like that.

      I'd tell you what you should be doing instead. I'm nice like that.

      You need to sit down and look at your CV - then perhaps with the help of an older, experienced working adult in his/her 40s or 50s and a big red marker, circle the most useful skills you have and cross out the useless ones. Then from that, identify the one or two more useful areas of your skill set to develop into something you can build into a viable career route. In short, you need career advice from someone who has sat down and spent a good amount of time talking to you, understanding you, finding out what you're good at (and what you suck at ), what you like to do (and what you loathe), finding out everything about you down to your shoe size and what your favourite ice cream flavour is. Oh and that person had better have a great career as well, don't just take advice from anyone at all. As much as I appreciate the fact that you're my reader (and thanks for being a loyal reader), I don't know you personally so it's impossible for me to try to offer anything really constructive apart from pointing you in the right direction when it comes to seeking meaningful advice.

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    3. HAHA thanks for the swift reply LIFT I laughed at your "its the worst possible degree to have" i kinda agree but also you gotta give yourself credit because without your humanities degree maybe your blog wouldnt be so interesting to read + all your social skills when travelling?! I actually have work overseas before under a scholarship and most of my past work experiences have been related to marketing and communications in tech startups. Ok perhaps a better way of asking will be to tell you some of the options im contemplating:
      - join a tech MNC and hope for relocation (im currently about to start interning at one).
      - apply for a scholarship for masters abroad and hopefully find a job while studying there (not easy to apply i know).
      Also, I am a little hesitant to graduate without honors (in NUS people usually study 4 years for a bachelor with honors) so sometimes I am thinking if i should wait a bit before rushing into finding a job ??? Perhaps more specifically I'm curious when you landed your first job what made you decide to take it (salary/big MNC brand etc..)?

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    4. Hi again.

      1. I think my blog is interesting because I don't really talk about myself that much, seriously if you were to here me talk about my day, you'd be BORED. Not much happened, one of my best friends (also called Alex) stopped by and chatted a bit and we took some photos of the sunset from my roof. Duh. What's interesting about that? I didn't have a productive day as I needed approval from my boss for a few major decisions and he was in meetings all day - so I am frustrated with the lack of progress. Seriously, I am not that interesting, instead I talk about bigger issues that interest people (see the current debate about management styles east vs west - my latest post which has generated quite a debate).

      2. Social skills - that aspect developed when I went into the army and was forced to get along with people whom I had nothing in common with and then in the working world, it was a adapt or die situation and I adapted. You don't learn social skills at university, you learn it in the real world. It's not on the curriculum in any university - perhaps if you did a degree like psychology, perhaps that helps.

      3. I'm not sure if I would have bothered with a degree if I could do it all over again, but hindsight is 2020.

      4. Joining a tech MNC and hoping for relocation is a loooooooooong shot. I have a friend (Choaniki - one of my regular readers here) he did that and waited a long time and finally when the HR boss in his UK office said, "look it's not going to happen, I wouldn't wait if I were you." I'm not saying it's impossible - I'm warning you that you have to wait for conditions to be *just right* for them to need someone like you in the office in say London or New York. There was absolutely nothing wrong with Choainiki's ability - it's just that there wasn't a demand for a person with his kind of skills in his company's English office.

      5. Getting a scholarship means nothing - trust me, speaking as a triple scholar, it means faaaar less in the West than in Singapore where people kowtow to scholars. There's zero guarantee that you will get a job even if you do land a masters scholarship (and even that, is admittedly a long shot even if you do have good grades).

      6. 4 years for honours? Geez. That's another reason why NUS is crap. Fuck that, I got my 2:1 with honours in 3 years (+scholarship) in the UK.

      7. The honest answer for my first job? I graduated, I applied for loads of jobs, I got loads of rejections and the first people who said yes, I took the job. It wasn't great but it was hard to get my foot on the first rung of the ladder as a fresh grad. Please lah, I was a fresh grad, beggars are NOT choosers. I am now 40 and can negotiate a fat salary package with benefits - but as a fresh grad, I was just grateful that any company would give me a chance. I stayed there long enough until I could land myself a better job. And that's life. You start from the bottom - even scholars like me do not always waltz into a great job upon graduation.

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    5. 8. Oh and if you intend to work overseas - then you have little incentive to spend an extra year to get honours within the NUS system. Dude, in the UK, if you spend a 4th year in university, you graduate with a masters degree. It's this ridiculous Asian obsession with studying - if you're busy studying, then you're not out having sex, fucking around, giving/getting blowjobs and thus that makes you a good kid. That may work when you're 12 years old but you're an adult for crying out aloud and the Singaporean/Asian mentality quite frankly sucks balls. I have worked as a gatekeeper in previous jobs and yes I read CVs, I look at their degrees but I also look at their work experience and I would never reject someone on the basis of them not having gotten honours at university - it's a fucking stupid Asian mentality to think that someone would offer you a job just because you did well in a fucking exam. Only my parents believe that crap - but then again, they're Singaporean teachers (now retired) and they believe that I managed to get such good jobs because I did well in my exams. I had to tell them that my boss doesn't even care if I have a degree or where it's from, as long as I have the relevant work experience and I am know how to handle myself in the job interview. Heck, I've been the evil man grilling candidates in job interviews for many years now.

      Sorry if I have an axe to grind but most Singaporean teachers are fucking ignorant - if they admitted "you know what, do what the hell you want, even if you flunk my subject you'll probably go on to have a good life regardless." No their ego gets in the way and they insist that you will be doomed for life, have a one way ticket to a life of crime and imprisonment if you do not study hard for their subject. My parents were such fucking awful teachers who fed their students just dumb lies for so many years - and got away with it because such is the Singaporean system.

      Look, I'm glad you wanna work abroad because damnit the grass is so much greener outside Singapore, outside Asia, in the West.

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    6. Couldn't agree more with what you said and of course, thanks for your insights!

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    7. madhatter, I am in HR for 15 years (various MNCs and in tech now) and only seen ONE case of a local who relocated to work in Japan. You may be better off with a local organization with offices worldwide. Most of them typically send locals to manage offices in other countries.

      As for educational qualification like honors? Frankly, I don't give a shit unless it's a specific requirement from the hiring manager which happens rarely anyway. We are mainly preoccupied with finding individuals who can fit in our organizational culture with the right skillsets (depending on role requirements). We have had Ivy League/branded graduates who impressed us initially, but if you do not fit then you are out. Academic qualifications can only get you so far, the rest is your attitude.

      You have to understand that tech is a fast moving industry with short business cycles, unlike say more conservative ones like banking or insurance. Thus it is imperative to possess a flexible mindset and not be resistant to changes. I've seen individuals who refused to give up on their pet projects ("sunk cost") despite changes in management directions. They were not able or refused to suck it up and move on, ultimately ended up disengaged themselves when they lost management support. Do not be like them. Be responsive to changes and do not dwell on things that you are not able to influence.

      I hope it was useful.

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    8. Thanks for the brilliant write up Cecilia - I wish people like madhatter had the chance to speak to people like you more, it is so important for these young people to hear from people like you and understand what the hiring process is like - so many students think that we're only looking at grades when there's sooo much more to the process than that.

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    9. LIFT, I would say that looking at grades is a lazy way of getting to know candidates. Our interview process is more competency and achievement based, as in the companies I worked for. Thus we tend to ask questions on how candidates deal with certain situations, past achievements etc. We seldom touch on candidates' academic results unless we suspect something fishy about their education background.

      So madhatter, to be different and stand out among your peers: reflect on yourself, know your strengths and weakness well and how to work them to your advantage.

      Enlightened interviewers are not going to ask about your studies, since you should already know. Instead, we ask you for examples of situations where you felt stressful and how you overcome them, how you communicate/work with others etc.

      There are no right and wrong answers, it is to find out this candidate can fit into the organisation/dept/job. We like candidates who are honest and tell us as it is, and how they move on/take away from a particular incident.

      There are simply so much to share on such topics that it can be a post on it's own.

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    10. Thanks @Cecilia and @LIFT, just to give an update, I am on my second interview (I passed the first which was with HR and the people that I was going to work with) and now its going to be with the CEO. It is an advertising firm based locally with offices in other places as well so I really hope to get this job. hopefully fingers crossed. @LIFT this might be a stupid question but what are your thoughts about pay negotiation? As a gatekeeper, when you ask such a question are you looking for a numerical answer or are you testing the candidate's willingness to work? (I gave an actual number but after that I was wondering if they were just testing me...so I'm feeling a little silly now.)

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    11. Sorry to evade the question but I think it depends on the culture of the company. Some companies like candidates to know what they are worth (that is mostly based on what they have earned before), others find it a bit arrogant and demanding for candidates to come in with a number in mind (because they will already know what they are willing to pay). I don't know which it would be in your case.

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    12. I understand. I tried to deflect coming off as arrogant by smiling a bit too wide while saying a number sheepishly (fresh grad woes haha).

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    13. Nooooooooooo!!! Hell no! No no no.

      Never EVER do that again. NEVER play the sheepish card and imagine that it is a good response.

      It is a pretty dumb ass response.

      Either: state your number with some balls and say with pride, this is what I am worth, hold your head up high and you will be respected for that.

      Or: simply refuse to answer the question, say, "surely you have a figure in mind for this position, could you tell me what it is?"

      There's NOTHING to be gained by being sheepish. Just say the fucking number and say, "yeah bitches, that's what I'm worth because I'm better than all the others you've seen today. Take it or leave it." You win no respect, no kudos, nothing from being sheepish. It just tells the gatekeeper one message, "what a loser, no self-confidence, maybe I'll consider this loser if I am hiring a doormat everyone can wipe the soles of their shoes on."

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    14. OH OK! I actually followed up with something along the lines of your second statement after saying a number and he laughed thats why the sheepish reaction. I think he found it funny that I'm trying to be confident but still questioning him at the same time. UPDATE: I am going to keep this in mind because they're calling me back again tomorrow to "negotiate some details". Thanks so much!

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    15. OK what to do if he laughs like that. I think the only option is to laugh like him, mimic his reaction. That is the default response when someone throws something unexpected like you - pretend that you're on the same page as him and laugh just like him. Then perhaps you can choose to say something about why you laughed with him or just move on. I'm sorry but looking sheepish will never ever help you under any circumstances, it just sends out the signal that you're not confident and you don't believe in yourself. Believe you me, I get nervous and doubt myself all the time, like ALL THE TIME. But as I get older, I get increasingly good at hiding my insecurities and feelings and putting on a very bold, very brazen, garang front when work demands it. You're young, you don't know how to hide your feelings yet. When you learn to hide your feelings, you may think, "oh shit why the hell did I say that" but your face will never betray whatever you are thinking.

      You'll get there one day, I hope. Sorry if I am terribly harsh but I would like you to treat this as a learning experience.

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    16. OK here's an example of how I had to keep a poker face. We have a contractor we deal with and he needed him to do something for us - the price he quoted us was £20k and at first we wanted him to do it for £15k. Then he dropped his price to £18k and my boss said yes, but I went in and tried to make it sound like my boss was only willing to spend £17k max but I managed to get him up to £18k just to make me look like the good guy, buy some goodwill as we'll be working with this guy. Then after we agreed, my boss turns up and the contractor said, "Alex told me the good news that you're offering me £25k and I have gladly accepted." I thought, WTF? I never said that, I didn't know how to react - so I kept calm and defaulted to poker face. My boss then laughed and said, "oh we were willing to go up to £35k but Alex must be keeping £10k for himself because he wants to go on holiday." Then I realized, okay, my boss must know this guy was joking that's why he joked back. So all is cool, signed the contracts everything, done and dusted. But there was like a period of 5 seconds or so when I didn't know what the hell was going on. Did I look sheepish?! No, I just went poker face. You couldn't tell from my face what I was thinking. My mind was racing, but I looked totally composed and calm.

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    17. Haha I know you meant well and I totally appreciate your advice, and yes I think if I was in your position in this story my face might have been like :O if the contractor said that but I get it. The point is to act cool/laugh along instead. Update: yeah I did get the job offer in the end! The only thing holding me back now is the pay offer. The number is simply...well below my expectations (but like what did I expect its a PR/Advertising firm).

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    18. OK! So you got the job offer. I think it's a steep learning curve for most young people lah, I do sales pitches all the time so I have mastered the art of bringing my poker face no matter how badly things go. Imagine if a client asks me a question and I have no idea what the answer is, I would poker face and say, something like, "I think that is an interesting question because I was just talking to someone else the other day and he was also asking about the same issue. (insert unnecessary detail) But just to be clear, could you explain to me exactly what you needed to know?" You see, whilst I am waffling, I am buying myself thinking time to figure out what I am going to do - can I find the info in the time I am buying? Can I answer his question with a question? Or do I have to just say, "I've noted your question and I'll get back to you on that one." But yeah, skills like that you need to pick up through real life experience. I watched a gymnastics competition on the internet today, saw the current Olympic champion Sanne Wevers totally went to pieces and performed really badly probably because of pressure and nerves - so don't feel bad, even someone like her can crack under pressure and we all do that sometimes. As long as you learn from your experience. :)

      How low is the pay offer dare I ask? Is it so low you're going to say no and hold out for something better?

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    20. How does that compare with others in your position? Same? Less/more?

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    21. Same/more. I simply googled "account manager" to get a rough gauge on sites like Payscale and thats why i think I felt that the pay was too low. Generally, my impression was that as a fresh grad 3K is a good number. Of course, I'm well aware that such statistics also depend on how much experience the person has and also the type of industry. My plan now is to see if i can drag it out a bit to buy myself more time before I make a decision because I have 2 other pending interviews (at varying stages but this is like leaving fate to speed of HR urgh) OR, try and make a counter offer again. I think the question I have to ask myself is how much do I need vs want. Its quite hard to know if the experience is going to be worth it but hey dont try wont know. Thanks for offering a listening ear. I tried to talk to my parents about this it went completely off-topic. My dad just wants me to continue studying ("NUS not easy to enter why you want to graduate without honors") , my mum just said "记得做工就要给我钱" alamak.

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    22. Hey, I'm here for you. I feel for you as my parents never gave me a single useful advice for my career anyway and I figured it out with the help of my FRIENDS. And that's what friends are for! If I can be a friend to you at this time, then it's me sort of repaying that debt of kindness to my other friends who helped me out when I was younger.

      1. Do you now what the progression of the pay is? $2.5k now but what is the scope for promotion/pay rise? It's not where to start that matters, it is where you will be in a few years' time. Any info on that - ask for it.

      2. I think your dad is plain wrong. There is the issue of opportunity cost. You give up this opportunity to study one more year and guess what? This company may not be hiring this time next year. Who knows what kind of job offers you may get next year? Would an NUS honours bring you more money - or is your dad defaulting to the dumb Asian thinking that study more = always good? At your age, you should be thinking about the pay off about whether one more year at NUS is necessarily going to bring you that much more knowledge that is going to make it worth your while - measure that against the opportunity cost of one year's work experience and I say the work experience wins hands down. And that's coming from a gatekeeper - is your dad a gatekeeper? When was the last time your dad had to look for a job? As for your mother, sigh, just don't bring up the topic with her lah, I don't try to talk to my mother about things like that as she offers equally dumb remarks. Talk to me instead ok?

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    23. 1. Hypothetically, there will be a 3 month review but also performance varies. Its difficult to determined.

      2. Yep! Like my friends, you all have been really supportive of me entering the workforce :D its just that I still have to explained it to them and when my mum use arguments like "i brought you up and this is how you repay me " kind makes me feel very guilty. I understand where my dad is coming from though, his rationale is student life is now but there will always be working waiting for you so don't rush into it. Oh well, I'm still job hunting anyway will let you know how it goes!

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    24. Sorry to be the English teacher here, you did a very Singlish thing there: "its difficult to determined" - you should be said, "it is difficult to determine", the fact that we don't know what will happen in the future should you take this job means that the pay rise situation should be talked about in the future or at least present tense (ie. you're trying to talk about it now, by answering my question), not the past.

      Onto the situation - you're right, it is hard to determine. A good employer will reward a good employee by keeping them happy with perks such as pay rises, promotions, benefits etc. We don't want a situation where they end up thinking, "what the hell am I doing here when my friend who works for another company is treated so much better, is paid more etc. I may as well go there." True story: my friend Michael thought this years ago, so he left and after he left, he came back and tried to poach a number of members of staff. He literally said, "come and work for this company where I am working now, the money is better, the management are so much nicer etc". When a company loses quality staff, that's when they will suffer because we spend a lot of time and money training our staff. Companies wanna guard that investment. So please, be assured that this is something you don't have to worry about and if they don't treat you well, then forget them and go work elsewhere.

      You have nothing to feel guilty about lah, don't be silly. I urge you to read my latest piece which I am going to publish today when I talk about my difficult relationship with my parents and you have to realize that the fault can lie with them sometimes. You are so like my sister, my sis is a v intelligent person who is often ruled by emotion rather than reason. I am the total opposite, I can put my feelings aside and be totally rational. As for your dad, the question he should be asking is this: will having honours reward you more in the job market? Would it command a higher salary or would it make little difference in a few years? You see, as a gatekeeper, I don't really care about that - I care about university ranking, I care about work experience, I care about soft skills but honours? Not relevant, not important. Can he explain to you WHY you should get this honours? Cos this gatekeeper is not convinced.

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    25. oh yes urgh determine* and also work* not "working" since im onto it haha.

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  4. If it helps my exact response was "I believe X is a reasonable number if you disagree tell me what you think." He laughed thus, my knee-jerk reaction (sheepish smile)...seems like I will need to practice bitch face expression more!

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