Friday, 24 May 2013

The Encore eServices Assault and Exploitation Case exposed: part 2

So much has been said on social media about the slapping video that has gone viral - goodness me, when was the last time a news story from Singapore made it into the news in both in the UK and US?

OK for those of you who are not familiar with the case (where have you been?!) here are the details in a nutshell. This case centred around a video taken by an intern at Encore eServices which captured the manager/boss/supervisor (well it is a tiny company) repeatedly slapping an employee. The boss has seen been identified as Alan Lee Yew Nam. Alan Lee has since offered an apology to the parents of the victim but the parents have made a police report. Apparently, they didn't realize the full extent of how badly the victim was treated or how badly he was paid.
There are many questions now asked by Singaporeans about this case: how did the victim agree to work under such conditions? Why did the victim hide the full extent of his abuse from his own parents? How on earth did SIM continue to send interns to such a dodgy company? What kind of responsibilities does SIM have towards their students when it comes to such internships? What kind of charges could be brought against to Alan Lee - will he be punished?

First, I am going to compare and contrast this to the recent Jerard Lee vs Timetric case to show you what you should and shouldn't do when you do go public about bullying in the workplace. How are the two cases different? Whilst Jerard Lee was the one single-handedly spearheading his media campaign, the as yet unnamed victim in the Encore eServices case has kept a very low profile. Let's analyze the role of the victim in both cases - the victim in the slapping case was originally reluctant to admit that he was the person in the video because "he did not want the incident to affect Alan's family." Contrast this to the way Jerard was mouthing off on social media, making threats to Amit Patel in quite an aggressive manner, being egged on by others on EDMW who used racist, xenophobic language to attack Amit. In being so aggressive, Jerard came across as a difficult to manage, unruly former employee.
Alan Lee was caught on film assaulting his worker. 

If you have decided to play the role of the victim in such a dispute, then stick to the script. Jerard was an incredibly unconvincing victim - upon reading his threats on the EDMW forum, one's first reaction is, "Okay, so where was all this bravado when you encountered Amit in the office? Surely if you can say all these things in the forum, you can defend yourself in an office environment?" Jerard didn't behave like a victim convincingly - in fact, the way he behaved weakened his case considerably because he provided evidence contrary to his claim that he was a victim.

In the slapping case however, whilst you may be dismayed at this guy's behaviour and choices, he is definitely sticking to the script in being extremely meek even when interviewed by the papers. He had every opportunity to say horrible things about his employer who slapped him around and paid him only $500 a month for 3 years - but no, instead he bit his lip and even said positive things about his experience there. Is he really that meek (possibly) or is he cleverly playing the part of the victim who has been exploited and bullied? Either way, it is achieving the desired effect: public sympathy, something Jerard Lee never got.
Media and public interest in his case has been overwhelming. 

Why is he behaving like this? Should he even at this stage have the guts to say something about his former employer? It is not so simple - the journalists have already done plenty to dig up related stories, such as tracking down other former interns who have said plenty of nasty things about that supervisor and the facts of the case speak for themselves. The fact is, the victim doesn't need to say anything - the public have already made up their minds about the firm in question (Encore eServices) and the supervisor involved (Alan Lee).

Originally, I thought that the case might have been settled quietly out of court - surely Alan Lee would have written the victim's parents a blank cheque to keep the story out of the press. But no, it is now too late - we now know intimate details of Alan's life, his parents and wife which have been circulating on the internet. But note that this was a result of netizens digging up these details - the victim divulged very little. Alan's reputation is finished and though I am not sure what impact it may have on his business as his product is so incredibly niche market. If he has a good international network of established clients who have been happy customers, they may choose to ignore this story.
Oh yeah, it is too easy to ignore the plight of those making the product you consume if you are getting a good price for a quality product. Remember the tragedy in Bangladesh last month when over 1000 were killed (most of them garment factory workers) when a building collapsed? Well, one of those factories were supplying to a UK high street fashion retailer Primark. All Primark had to do was to put up a big red sign that said, "SALE!" Ooh and suddenly, a lot of people conveniently forgot about that building collapse as they rushed in to grab themselves a bargain. Would Encore eServices' clients ignore the fact that Alan Lee had been mistreating his staff? Probably. Did Alan think that his clients would continue using his services regardless of what happens next? Quite probably.
Indeed, with so much public anger and animosity directed at Alan Lee now, I wonder what he was thinking when he didn't settle out of court with the victim's parents. Maybe he believed that he could get away with no more than a slap on the wrist (pun intended), like a warning letter from MOM? It sounds incredulous - but if he didn't think that he could get away with it in the first place, he wouldn't have been this abusive in the first place. Perhaps he is still in denial over the whole incident and thus he didn't do anything to protect himself from the media fall out - a bit like an animal staring a car in the headlights in utter shock that moment before it gets run over. Here's a hint - when you don't know what to do, seek advice. When you're in deep shit, call a lawyer and they will tell you what you ought to do next to deal with that shit you're in. If you're in a complex situation, never try to solve it yourself - talk to your smarter and more sensible friends and most importantly, talk to a good lawyer!

In this context, the victim's parents were demanding only $100,000 - that would have nipped this case in the bud and prevented any further investigations. It seems that Alan hasn't paid up (well, they didn't give him much time to consider and if Alan gets persecuted and found guilty of assault, then he could spend two years in jail. Would he rather go to jail for two years than to pay $100,000 to settle this out of court? What was Alan thinking? Maybe he thought he could haggle and bargain, maybe he was afraid that the figure of $100,000 may turn into $500,000. After all, many Singaporeans did think that $100,000 was a rather small amount to demand for an out of court settlement and I agree - they should have figured out how much Alan could afford to pay (how much his business is worth, how much his house is worth etc) and then base that figure on what Alan can afford. After all, they are not suing him solely for lost income (as the victim was only paid about $500 a month for three years) - they are also claiming damages for the physical abuse and what kind of price can you put on that kind of physical and psychological abuse?
How much money should the victim ask for to settle this out of court?

So let's move on to the next question: why did the victim put up with this kind of abuse for three years? Well, I have already talked about this in my previous article on the issue when I analyzed the victim's body language. It is similar to the way battered wives put up with the beatings rather than leave their abusive husbands - they believe that they would be worse off without their husbands or that they will not be able to find a better husband. Likewise in this case, the victim may be very afraid of being unemployed if he left Encore eServices and he was convinced by Alan Lee that he would not be able to find a better job. Well what do you know, the victim has already received some job offers already. I am glad he realized that Encore eServices needed him more than he needed that job.

As an aside, there will be plenty of companies who would totally love to hire someone like the victim - after all, look at the traits he has demonstrated. He works extremely hard, he comes to work even when he is sick, he doesn't dare to question authority and even when things go badly wrong, he doesn't dare to complain. Compare him to someone like Jerard Lee who complained non-stop about the way he was managed - if you were the boss of a small company, who would you rather hire? When can we complain and when should we keep quiet?
When can we complain and when should we keep quiet at work? 

I had to think about that this week - my bosses do not hesitate to scold me when I get things wrong. Just this week, I had to prepare a marketing plan for a Dutch client and I had to redo it about four times. Each time they found something wrong and it was frustrating as they wouldn't tell me exactly what they hated about it - they rejected each copy with short emails like, "it looks all wrong" and "it is a mess". I went to my colleague Sylvie for help and told her what happened. I told her in exasperation, "But I am already trying my best!" She replied, "Yes, but they are not paying you to try your best Alex, they are paying you to get it right - preferably the first time."

You know what? She's right. I had to admit that as much as I would've appreciated more guidance from my bosses in the preparation of that marketing document, she has a point - they're not paying me to teach me stuff. They're paying me to do something I claim I can already do with years of experience in sales and marketing and if I don't deliver, then that's me who is in the wrong. I did think about arguing with my bosses after they rejected my marketing plan yesterday but I remembered what Sylvie said and I bit my tongue - welcome to the harsh reality of the working world.
I was hired to deliver results, not try my best but get it wrong. 

Let's compare this to a scene from my primary school - I had a really ferocious Chinese teacher when I was in primary 3. She would summon you to the blackboard and if you couldn't write the Chinese characters correctly, she would hit you - sometimes with a ruler, sometimes with her hands. If you were very lucky, she may just shout at you and scold you. Hey this was 1985 - teachers behaved very differently back then. We were expected to just memorize chunks of Chinese characters just to make sure we didn't get beaten by her - it was a scary experience when you got asked to come up to the blackboard as you were afraid that even one stroke or dot out of place would result in a beating.

Now was it right for that Chinese teacher to punish her students for not knowing how to write those Chinese characters? No, because it was her job to teach us how to read and write in Chinese and as students, we had the right to expect her to teach us rather than hit us when we didn't know how to write certain characters - the teacher was being paid a salary to teach us after all and we're paying for those Chinese lessons with our school fees. However, nobody is paying my boss to teach me how to draft those marketing plans - he is paying me to write those marketing plans so the onus is on me to get it right, not on him to teach me how to write them correctly. Such is the difference between being a student and being a worker - do most Singaporeans understand that difference when they make that important transition from being to student to entering the workforce?
Oh I had a terrible Chinese teacher back then!

This is why some Singaporeans have a very student-like mentality when they enter the workplace - people like Jerard Lee expected his bosses at Timetric to act like teachers and treat him like a student. Time for a wake up call - the dynamics of the worker-boss relationship is very different from that of a student-teacher relationship. Jerard Lee is one extreme - the victim in this case the another extreme: he didn't question the authority of his boss at all even when he was being physically abused. Again, there's a rather child-like mentality there, when we were sent to school as young children, we were instructed to listen to our teachers and obey them. As Singaporeans, we had cultivated this respect for authority from an early age but this victim was so trusting he didn't even flinch when Alan Lee repeatedly struck him in the face. How did he remain in this naive, trusting, child-like state?  Did the work experience of his internship prepare him adequately for the working world? Evidently not.

This brings me neatly to my next point. I would love to see heads roll at SIM - what the hell were they thinking sending intern after intern to a shitty company like Encore eServices, some crappy one man band company, run by an abusive moron with serious anger management issues? If this is an example of one internship from SIM, I wonder what kind of other terrible, shitty companies SIM are sending their undergrads to? For crying out aloud, why are people going to SIM in the first place when there are respectable universities like NUS and NTU in Singapore for crying out aloud? NUS has a global ranking which is always top 30 - that's top 30 in the whole freaking world. SIM's current ranking is 5429th - good grief. I'll let that ranking speak for itself. Are you going to get good internships from a university with that kind of ranking, or is a stint at a crappy company Encore eServices the best you can expect?
What kind of internship did you have in mind?

Having done my tertiary education in France and the UK, I am not familiar with the Singaporean system so I have a question for my Singaporean readers please. If an internship is a part of your course, then do you get a say in your intership posting? I remember the way I was posted to my unit when I was a soldier during NS, I didn't get a say in what I did or where I went - it was decided for me and off I went when I got that piece of paper. Surely as a fee paying university student, you should have some say in what kind of internship you get? Or don't you? Can you as a student say, "that's a shitty little company, no way. I want to do an internship with someone like Citibank, Nokia, Google or Singapore Airlines." Please let me know how it works because I can't understand why these students accept such shitty internships. I know that I would never accept such a crap internship, would you?

Lastly, what kind of relationship did the victim have with his parents? Could he not have told his parents what was happening at work? It took a relative to show the victim's parents the video before they realized what was going on and he still tried to deny it at first even to his own parents. This is what I mean about how some Asian kids can live under the same roof with their parents but still be so very distant in their relationship. Did they put any pressure on him to get a job and stay employed? How could they not realize just how little he was earning? I find it incredible that they could have been in the dark for all this time about just how badly he was treated at this company. Who do you blame? Are they bad parents for having brought up a son who doesn't dare to even confide in them when things go wrong? Is he a bad son for having kept the truth from his own parents? I don't want to start speculating what the answers to these questions may be - but there are many unanswered questions about this family indeed.
Was the victim wrong to have kept all this from his parents? 

If you are a Singaporean parent reading this - ask yourself, if your child finds himself in such a situation one day, would s/he have the confidence to come to you and say, "mom/dad I am in trouble, please I need your help." Or would s/he be too afraid or ashamed to come to you for help? How can you make sure you earn your child's trust so s/he will not keep something like that from you? What kind of relationship would you like to have with your child? Likewise, if you are a Singaporean child, then ask yourself this - do you have the confidence to go to your parents for help if things go wrong at work? If not, why not? Who would you turn to for help and advice in a difficult situation then?

In my case, I probably will not want to tell my parents anything if things don't go well at work - why? It is not that I am ashamed or anything - heck, I am telling complete strangers on my blog that I have been having a tough week over this marketing plan for my Dutch client. I'm human, I have troubles and problems like everyone else and I am bravely trying my best to cope with the challenges that life throws at me. I might go to someone like my older sister for help for she is extremely resourceful, wise, intelligent and insightful. She has a brilliant career and has been working longer than I have. I love and trust my wonderful sister a lot and know that she would be the right person to talk to for things like that.
"Don't worry mum, I get along with everyone at work. They are nice to me."

But my mother? And my dad? Sigh. Like, where do I even begin with them? They are retired primary school teachers who know little of the big bad world beyond the primary school gates. If I told them my problems, all I will do is make them worried and they won't be able to offer any kind of advice or solution at all - in short, they can't help because they are in no position to even begin to understand my problems. That is why I don't tell them the bad news, I just tell them the good news so they think I am happy and successful. Quite simply, I don't want to worry them. Actually, I don't think my situation is that unique as many of my peers actually feel the same way about telling their parents their problems as well. Maybe the victim in this story felt the same way and didn't want to worry his parents - is that the reason why he kept the truth from them? What do you think? Would you have done the same thing for the same reasons?

As usual, I am most interested to know your thoughts - please do leave a comment below, thanks!

40 comments:

  1. "Please let me know how it works because I can't understand why these students accept such shitty internships. I know that I would never accept such a crap internship, would you?"

    Hi, I have been a long time reader of your blog, but haven't commented till now (though I enjoy reading your blog very much!). I am an undergraduate at one of Singapore's 3 local universities (not SIM) and I have done an internship myself last year.

    I do not know what the internship criteria is like in SIM, but for my university course, internships are mandatory. This means that every student in my university has to finish an internship during the normal study duration (3-4 years) - failure to complete the internship means that the students cannot graduate and have to continue paying tuition fees until they finally complete the internship. In most cases, the internship has to be related to the course of study, ie. a Business student has to do a business related internship, an Accountancy student has to do an accountancy related internship and so on.

    In my university, we do have a choice in our internships as we have to source for and apply for the internships by ourselves (this is because my university's career services offices simply do not have the resources to find internships for every student). I know that at least 1 other university in Singapore is slightly different in that they do not give their students a choice in choosing which company to intern in.

    However, the risk of not being able to graduate on time and the heavy competition from fellow students from all universities for internships has made it very tempting for many students to accept lousy internships (ones that don't teach the students anything and are basically ways for the companies to get free labour) or the first offer that comes by. Some students basically just want to finish the internship fast and get it recorded in order to graduate on time. This is especially so if the students in question have a poor academic record so they already know that their chances of securing an internship is low. (Note: I'm referring only to lousy internships, not physically/psychologically abusive internships as I don't know anyone who has experienced that.)

    I don't know if this is the situation in SIM, but if it is, I can certainly understand why the intern in question accepted the internship and went on with it. Though it is beyond my comprehension why he went on working with that company even after the internship.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks so much for your insight EV!

      The French and British system is quite different and the internships are not compulsory at least for some of the courses - so the students are free to go find their own internships in the long summer holidays if that is what they want - so the students are not in that kind of situation where they get posted to a shit company where they get treated like crap and exploited. By that token, they're responsible for their own internships and those with well connected parents get the best ones - I didn't actually bother with an internship actually, I travelled a lot instead during my holidays and worked part time anyway, but I never got an internship - it never really affected me anyway.

      Thanks again EV.

      Delete
  2. Hello LIFT,

    Thanks for writing your thoughts on this issue.

    After the news break out, I did thot why the guy kept quiet the sufferings at his workplace for 3 years from his parents. A possibility he may be introvert type like me, hardly express myself to others and prefer to be alone and keep things in heart.

    I do share a bit of my work problems to my parents but I won't give the full picture as I don't want them to worry over me. Most of my work problems I share to my manager and colleagues to find out the solutions.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hiya - yeah i know what you mean. I remember how disappointed I was when i tried to share my NS problems with my parents and they just didn't get it, they haven't the faintest clue what goes on in NS and they couldn't sympathize or help in any way and I remember thinking, why did I even tell them in the first place? All i did was get them worried about me, they couldn't help... it is not about being introverted per se, but more like, you go to someone who can help or will be at least in a position to understand and offer good advice and that's not my parents.

      Delete
  3. Hi Limpeh,

    I just want to say that I fully agree that SIM is to be blamed for the situation. An intern basically is a student whose grades are at stake and has very little power vs his employer. It is the duty of the school to protect his rights to not just a bully-free place but a good internship as they sent him there. Pay is a separate matter as it is usually within the prescribed range i.e. very low minimum. That fear of getting a poor grade is enough to hold a lot of kiasu Singaporeans people back.

    During my U internship days I was sent to a very small manufacturing company. Times were hard and places were hard to find, we understood the school had a hard time. This place was like a few army training sheds with no walls and had 20 unskilled foreign workers doing carpentry stuff like nailing and sawing and varnishing. But then they hired 20 tertiary students on internships to supplement. We basically did the same things as those Indian and Bangladeshi workers. I led a rebellion to AWOL off to complain up to our dean as our school supervisor was not helpful. Some of classmates preferred to stay out of trouble and just bear the 8 weeks. It was very disappointing less than half were backing my action to complain to dean. Eventually the dean sent another supervisor to check who then reported that there was "insufficient engineering" content in our internships there. It turns out later that the owner was a good personal friend of our supervisor. I won't be surprised if Alan has a few friends in SIM.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good grief! Yes in that context, then Alan would have a few friends in SIM.

      I do hope heads will roll at SIM!!!

      Delete
  4. Hi Limpeh!

    Here to post my 2cents worth on local internships.
    I went through internships in my time in a local polytechnic.The internship experience for me and my peers were mixed, depending on the company assigned. My school has a record for assigning students to small/weird/unrelated jobs or companies. Some were basically treated like cheap labour and while others (like myself) were fortunate enough to gain useful experience in a position related to our studies. Students, like my boyfriend, who did not want to run the risk of being assigned a shitty company were also allowed to source for their own internships.

    I got my preferred internship position by making multiple requests to the relevant lecturers and internship co-ordinators.
    I felt many of my classmates then did not take the initiative and have a rather apathetic attitude for internships. Even with the knowledge that the school could potentially send them to a f-uped company internship. They then start complaining about under utilization of their skills/unrelated jobscope..etc days into the job when they could have had the chance to improve their internship experience.

    Personally I feel internship experiences are valuable, and do not want to leave it up to a co-ordinator who does not understand my strengths, weaknesses and interests. It is also up to the individual to find and fight for what he/she wants in an internship; nobody is going to spoon feed you forever lol. Yes, the school could have done better sourcing for companies. But ultimately I feel the individual has to fight for his/her opportunity as well. If you don't ask, you don't get.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, back in my time when I was doing my poly internship, some dude got posted to a small watch shop in a small shopping centre, working 6 days a week (typical retail hours) 8-9 hours each day for $400 a month. Some other friends got posted to do call centre work for the same $400 a month, working 6 day work weeks and 8-9 hour shifts without OT pay.

      That is pure and open exploitation when it is a job you don't even need a poly diploma to do, and I am sure the interns could easily get the same job outside part-time paying much more...

      Delete
    2. If this is the case, then clearly the companies who offer such internships are in cahoots with the university/poly to exploit these students to do such crappy jobs which are not really related to what they are studying! If it is useful, relevant work experience that will help then get a job, then fair enough - but if it is totally unrelated crap (see B Tiger's story above), then it's seriously WTF ... how can any respectable university or poly do this to their fee paying students? It's scandalous that fee-paying students are treated so poorly! Singaporean students should stand up for their rights as fee paying students to say, this is bullshit, this is exploitation, we deserve better.

      Delete
    3. This is Singapore you are talking about. What rights again?

      Delete
  5. Limpeh,

    To answer some of your questions:

    Q: Do you get any say to which company you are posted to?

    A: In short, pretty much, no, and this is pretty much how it works at polytechnic and university level (unless Papa/mama are well connected and can get you into one of those big companies - I say this with no tinge of jealousy or envy as I refer to myself having previously been in that privileged position once).

    It is drilled into you how "lucky" you are to have a company willing to take you in to teach (exploit) you when you are pretty much "useless, fresh, don't know anything" etc - the things they will say about your (in)ability just to exploit young, willing labour! This is pretty much what happens in polytechnic (which I went through) and with a large number of friends in SIM, it is pretty much what happens in SIM as well.

    Q: Why the hell would you go to SIM when there is NUS/NTU?

    A: This also partly answers the previous question as to internship exploitation, and they are linked; I won't mince my words, but the reputation of SIM is pretty much as a university that people go to when they can't get into the local Us. Again, I am qualified to say this; I would be in SIM if not for papa and mama's money.

    This is another issue altogether (because those PAP idiots are giving all the places in NUS/NTU to foreign talent like that China guy who says Singaporeans are dogs, etc), but you can see how companies then exploit this situation by saying they are like some saintly companies willing to give these students a chance when others won't etc.

    I hope this gives you an insight into the shit students face in the education system; this might actually be the wake-up call Singapore needs to start regulating all this intern shit. Australia recently passed laws in Victoria prohibiting unpaid internships, and they have a real union that protects the exploited, but then again, we all know Singapore gahmen is pro-business and doesn't really give a shit about peasant interns (all the minister's children obviously get nice, comfy internships at big firms)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Yoda. Thank you for your message.

      1. Aiyoh. That is just so unfair to fee-paying students!

      2. Surely retaking one's A levels to get a second shot at NUS is better than settling for SIM? In my NS days, I did know someone who did just that - take one of his A levels was a disappointment, take 2 got him a place in NUS.

      3. Yes Sun Xu ... I am aware of that case. PAP sucks.

      Delete
    2. 2. A lot of SIM students are diploma students from poly like myself, it is not possible to retake the exam because the graduating GPA is based on a weighted average of all your subjects you took in those 3 years (very much like a university GPA).

      It is also getting impossibly hard for diploma students to get into local Us even with almost perfect GPAs, either due to grade inflation or because we need more people like Sun Xu... so the only option is usually to go overseas (which is, as you should know, prohibitively costly for most) or to to go places like SIM.

      And yes it is very unfair to fee-paying students, back then in poly we made a big fuss about this on behalf of a friend too and the faculty director actually said, "if you not happy you can always quit school!"

      In many ways, SIM is run like a polytechnic (meaning the same bullshit happens)...

      Delete
    3. Hi Yoda, thanks for your comment. May I ask you some more questions please as I am curious about the poly route?

      1. As you've explained, it's getting impossibly hard for diploma students to get into NUS/NTU even with almost perfect GPAs (with no chance of retakes) - so surely if your long term ambition is to get a place at NUS/NTU, then surely it would make sense to go to a JC to maximize your chances of getting into NTU/NUS rather than take the poly route which seems a lot harder for that purpose?

      Please, this is no judgement on the quality of a poly education - it is just a reflection of what you've just told me in the comment above. In my day, it was easier for poly students to make that cross over to NUS/NTU.

      2. Given the fact that students at polys and SIM get a bad deal when it comes to internships (and you agree it is very unfair to fee paying students), then why pick the poly route? Is it because you weren't aware of the full extent of how badly the poly interns were treated (or how hard it would be to then go to NUS/NTU after that)? Or is it because there are other great things that a poly experience offers that compensates for these other problems? Or is there something just so awful about going to a JC that you'll rather pick the poly route?

      In light of your comments, I wonder why anyone would want to take this route and risk such bad experiences. Things have indeed changed since my time.

      Delete
    4. Hi Limpeh, I am happy to share my personal thoughts on this, especially since I don't foresee this turning into one of those juvenile JC v Poly discussions (I suppose you are too old for that, ha ha)

      Polys, like all educational institutions, do marketing campaigns to get gullible 16-17 year olds to enrol, and this is one issue of contention that I have been pretty sore about. No need to wear uniform, flexible timetables, and they always market anecdotal success stories about their students being able to make it to unis, a diploma that you can use just in case you fail rather than the A Level - this all sounds pretty promising to a 16 year old, especially one who has been struggling or mediocre at best in Singapore's harsh and narrow education secondary education system, and has been told since 13 they are stupid and cannot study.

      One of the personal reasons for choosing poly over the JC route was also the supposedly more "practical" and project-based, tutorial type of method of learning. I guess I will never know what would have happened if I had chosen JC, but this more independent method of delivery allowed myself to flourish contrary to myself struggling previously in the rigid secondary education system. Again, you must remember that myself, and a whole lot of people around my ability were being told from 13-16 that we couldn't study, so best to pick up a practical skill and diploma that can get you a job just in case.

      In recent years, the standing of poly has increased, with students with very good scores at O levels choosing poly, but this hasn't been reflected in university admissions and this is obviously causing a lot of frustration with poly students like myself who feel cheated by the shiny marketing campaigns the polys run.

      Ultimately, I blame the polys for marketing promises to students they couldn't fulfill; if polys are meant to be places for people who need to learn more practical skills because they can't study, don't market it like it isn't; polys are somehow caught in the middle now, and even 5-6 years back when I was doing my poly diploma, it was pretty theoretical and I didn't learn much practically - so, neither here nor there.

      The other way you can look at it is that the ruling party has shifted the goalposts by bringing in people like Sun Xu at the expense of those who could study, but chose to go to poly, who suddenly find themselves caught out even with a pretty decent score being told, "Oh, you suddenly aren't good enough". I will probably start a shitstorm debate about the quality of poly students here, but after poly with a supposedly average score, I was rejected by all 3 unis in Singapore, but accepted at 3 UK unis of good quality and international standing - all higher-ranked than our local unis (this is ranking-obsessed Singapore). I chose Australia for other reasons and ironically am on the way to becoming an academic.

      Obviously, that left a very bitter taste, and now, the advice I give to my younger cousins or friends is not to be taken in by the bullshit that the polys tell you especially if you want to go to uni, unless your parents can pay for you to go overseas to receive a much higher quality education because ironically, our poly diplomas are valued much more overseas than in Singapore.

      Delete
    5. Hi there, yes there seems to have been a really long tradition of bitchy, childish poly vs JC quarrels and I am so glad I have found someone as eloquent and articulate as you to explain the situation to me! I am most grateful, thanks for indulging me.

      Now, I know about the poly's very seductive marketing campaigns - that is my sister's job and I know how good she is. Everything you have highlighted is true about the poly experience - ie. no uniforms, treated more like adults, more flexible timetables and the possibility of entering the workforce with a diploma. That is a choice one has to make but it seems like the last point about entering the workforce with a diploma becomes far less of a selling point if practically ALL poly students have the intention of then going on to get a degree after their diploma. This begs the question - if you really do want a degree at the end of the day and you are not going to be satisfied with a diploma, then why aren't you taking a shorter, more direct route to a degree then via a JC?

      Think about the poor Singaporean male (2 years NS) who takes the poly route - he is very unlikely to enter the workforce much before the age of 25/26 (it depends on how much credit his university will give his poly course, how much of it will count towards his degree). Compare this to a female Singaporean student who took the JC route, followed by a 3 year university course at NUS. She would be 21 by the time she graduates and could be 4-5 years ahead of her male counterpart who took the poly route! This used to be even worse when NS was longer in my day - when poly diploma holders had to serve up to 2.5 years of NS.

      Here's my question: surely if you already have to serve NS, then why would you pick a slower route to a degree? Wouldn't you want to pick the faster route so you can try your best to catch up with your female counterparts? Surely any higher starting salary that a degree will bring will have to be offset against the fact you have already lost time (up to 5 years for Male Singaporeans) in delaying your entry into the work force?

      Erm, as for being told you're stupid and bueh tak chek - I have news for you, I was also subjected to the same thing. Triple scholarship notwithstanding, I am far more educated than my parents but it didn't stop them from trying to convince me that I am stupid and lazy - it is a cultural thing. My parents thought if I was told I could study, I would become complacent and not study hard enough, so they were protecting me from 'pride'. Go figure.

      I am rather confused though, because there seems to be people (including my reader Denise Lee) who tell me that bright students with excellent O level results are opting for the poly route rather than JC route - but why would they then choose a route which would reduce their chances of getting into NUS/NTU? If all they want is a diploma to enter the workforce as quickly as possible, then fair enough - but if they do want a degree, then they are not only reducing the chances of getting into a good local university but taking a longer route as well. It just doesn't make any sense - could you explain this paradox please Yoda (or anyone)?

      Lastly, it seems CRAZY that Singaporean poly diplomas are valued much more overseas than locally in Singapore - surely something has gone wrong with the system?!

      Delete
    6. Hi Limpeh, I think those really bright students (like Denise Lee's child) who choose to go to poly can probably secure an NUS/NTU placement anyway despite the odds. I had 2 friends in my cohort with stellar O'Level results, who not only managed to clinch the top spots in Poly, but they went on to secure First-Class Honours in NUS as well.

      But as for myself, I did manage to get to NUS despite being nowhere as bright as them. I think it all depends on which route works the best for you. For me, it was the Poly route which gave me the opportunity to major in IT(which I was pretty good at). I was able to exploit this advantage and at the end of my 3 year course, I got third place in cohort(after those two friends) and got invitations to study in both NUS and NTU

      I can safely say that, if I had chosen to do A'Levels instead, I would have ended up with really mediocre grades which would not have gotten me far. So yes, the longer route worked for me. But that being said, the chances are still 5-15%(varies from Poly to Poly) for a Poly student to get into NUS/NTU, as compared to JC, so one must make a hard decision.

      Delete
    7. Hi Limpeh,

      I've been reading your posts for quite some time now but my fingers felt itchy after seeing this one!

      As a final year poly student in SP, I can confidently say that it is wayyyy more competitive in polys now than, say, a decade ago. The cut-off points for popular courses like business and some sciences have been getting lower and lower each year. It is also partly due to the increase in marketing by the various polys. (heck, some polys even publish their course guides that could pass off as encyclopedias) Those students who chose poly with confidence of making it to NUS/NTU are usually very sure of their path of choice. And they usually perform well consistently too. In that case, i believe poly is better for them due to the exposure gained from hands-on and work attachments etc.

      One more thing I would like to note is on choosing the JC path for easier entry into NTU/NUS. Sure, it is GENERALLY easier to enter those unis, with a huge priority for A level grads over diploma grads, but there are a number of factors to consider as well. (Let's exclude Medicine and Law, for obvious reasons) Not all students can tahan the "mug it all out" route for 2 years. Coming from a good sec sch most of my friends opted for the JC path and have shared their personal experiences with me. For someone like me who has the potential but doesn't have the discipline to pull through conscientiously, I'd reckon I would've retained for a year and probably be left bitter. I personally know a few like that, who were my sec sch classmates. On the other hand, it is easier to get past exams in poly - I've tried cramming from scratch just a day before a paper, pulling an all nighter. Not As, but average Bs. Quite good already. Might be a bit biased here though, as it varies from course to course, and school to school. I stand corrected.

      Another factor is on whether the student has any interest in the course at all if he/she opts to enter in said NUS/NTU too. Like I mentioned above, sure, it is easier, but depends on the course as well. Some just require a mix of Bs and Cs, but those are usually the less popular courses (Computing Science, etc). The more popular courses have ridiculously high cut offs, and are equally competitive as well too. Really boils down to individuals I think. Getting in is not everything though. I'm reflecting as I'm typing this out. I'm studying science right now and I can't imagine myself going through another 3 years as an undergrad after NS. I just don't have the interest to sustain. But back then I was only 16. Oh well. Better late than never to realise now.

      Not sure if you've heard of SUTD and SIT, the 2 latest universities to open in SG. SUTD is pretty reputable (curriculum and lecturers from MIT) and SIT caters mostly to poly grads. Will take a long time for the public to accept them and gradually get rid of the "only NUS/NTU is a viable option" mentality and stigma though. Especially the older generation.

      And yes, things have indeed changed since your time. In general I would just say that everything is much more competitive now than before, in line with the national agenda of 6.9m too, unsurprisingly.

      Cheers,
      Youxun

      Delete
    8. Hi there Youxun,

      Thanks for your insight into the issues raised - I am going to write another blog post to follow up on the issue.

      I wouldn't say that A levels is all about 'mug it out' - then again, that really depends on the subjects you take really. I did geography, economics, english literature and TSD and let's talk about economics - a very popular A level subject. If all you did was memorize loads of facts and then vommitted them back out in the essay during the exams, you would get just a C or a B if you're lucky. The As are those who are able to apply critical thinking and demonstrate an ability to think on the spot and show that they have understood the topics properly enough to analyze them, rather than just treating the exam as a regurgitation exercise. If one went through A levels simply memorize chunks of facts without exercising any critical thinking, then you're unlikely to do well.

      So there is a lot more to A levels than simply mugging - yes there is a lot of studying involved and I would've preferred more course work being a part of the exam rather than for your fate to be decided over a few exams, but there you go, that's the downside of A levels.

      I would also like to add that if you do enjoy what you study and you are actually interested in the subject, then discipline shouldn't be a problem. Yes believe it or not, you can actually like stuff at school! That is why some people enjoy studying more than others.

      Yes I have heard of SUTD and SIT v recently too - but like you said, they are new and have a long way to go.

      Delete
    9. Hi there Limpeh,

      It is heartening to know that you are curious about the poly perspective, particularly with your JC background, rather than letting this degenerate into one of those poly vs JC threads on hardwarezone (you are too good for that), so I am more than happy to share as a former poly student.

      I think thebevil has pretty much given a very good reason as to why students would want to choose poly over JC despite, as you say, the odds being stacked against you; the poly system simply works better for a lot of the learners in Singapore who struggle under the rigidity and control of the secondary school/JC system, and doesn't allow for independent learners to flourish - can I also say that, from personal experience, you can sometimes see the system failing to prepare people adequately for the independence of tertiary education (and later on, working life).

      I would caution largely against thebevil's "friend who got into NUS/NTU despite going to poly" - again, like I say, it is anecdotal and gives poly students false hope and the impression that a large number of them make it to local university - the fact is, most don't, and while I don't have statistics, it is safe to say a large number of those who want to pursue further education find themselves frustrated and ending up in places like SIM, PSB etc - the closest in statistics I have, are that in my poly class of 30, none of us made it to local unis, and only a handful (about 3-5 people) went to overseas unis because we (our parents) could afford it - the majority of the class (about half) ended up pursuing private education in SIM, PSB, the like - the rest just entered the workforce and will forever have to work extra hard to get into that executive level position. I think it is a very dangerous and misleading way to market poly to students, perhaps even veering on the unethical - it is akin to saying "Oh I knew this guy from (insert good JC name) who went to Oxford, go JC can go Oxford/Cambridge" - we know not everybody in JC goes to Oxford!

      Another perspective that you can see the poly diploma, is as a sort of insurance in risk averse Singapore - you must remember that as 16-17 year old students who are being told they cannot study, parents will be encouraging their children to "take a diploma just in case - otherwise A level result buang, you cannot do anything!". I'm sure you are familiar with this mindset (I have read and identified closely with your posts on your conversations with your parents)- I believe this is leading to many bright students with good O Level results later ending up very frustrated or underemployed/utilized in a way simply because of a bad choice to go to poly.

      Thus, I identify with the optimism of You Xun, back in the days when I was a final year poly student as well - of course, You Xun, I wish you all the best in applying for a local university place, but having being in your position once, I will advise you to temper your expectations slightly to avoid disappointment and have a Plan B, because honestly, everything they tell you about poly students going to uni is absolute bullshit - but so is everything they tell u about not being good enough...

      Delete
    10. Hi there Yoda, thanks for your reply once again.

      I hope you have read my latest post where I gave my stance on whether degrees are important and I basically argued that they are NOT, work experience is far more important in the long run and it is the stuff other than your academic qualifications that matter to employers. So for me, I am agnostic whether the student goes to ITE, Poly, JC, whatever route, as long as they find a way to make themselves shine and stand out from the crowd in a very competitive environment.

      What I do resent however, is any sense of entitlement by anybody - ITE, Poly, JC - nobody owes you anything in life. Nobody owes any students a place a university - you have to earn yourself a place there. Having said that, it should be a fair, level playing field where the odds are not stacked against you. Likewise, regardless of whatever route you took, nobody should 'expect' to get a job upon graduation just because you've studied hard and passed all your exams - again, you need to prove yourself worthy to an employer through stuff you've done outside school, as nobody is going to hire you to study and function like a student.

      There seems to be this struggle to make that transition from student life to working life in Singapore for some students and this is because Singaporean parents (yes I blame the parenting!) place studying above everything else. Whereas here in the UK, parents would nag at their children to get a job and work during the holidays to get some work experience and earn some money - Singaporean parents would prevent their children from seeking any kind of employment just in case it gets in the way of their studying. Do these parents not realize that their children will one day stop being students and have to start working? Good grief. Neurotic Ramblings have written an excellent piece on these so-called elite students from a top school in Singapore who are academically brilliant but are so bloody hopeless they don't know how to eat chicken with bones or use an umbrella. It sounds utterly ludicrous but it can ONLY happen in a place like Singapore as I know how ridiculous Singaporeans can be.

      Another point I would make is that not all JC students make it to NUS/NTU - certainly in the top 5 JCs - the vast majority do make it to a local University or like myself, go on to one of the top universities in the UK/US. Limpeh is v old (I am 37) - so back in my day, NUS wasn't ranked 29th in the world, so for those of us who were scholarship material, there was no question about it - you simply had to go abroad to go to a university that was ranked top 10 or at least to 20 in the world if you were of that calibre as the best local university then wasn't that highly ranked internationally. Thankfully, NUS has shown such vast improvement in the last 10 years that many of the best local talents can choose NUS as a viable option - but things were rather different in my day.

      Delete
    11. What happens to those from the JCs who do not do well enough in their A levels to get into a local university then? They have few options and are stuck in a rather bad situation - they can choose to retake their A levels. They can go to a poly (which begs the question, why did they bother with JC in the first place, they've just wasted 2 years of their youth), they can go to some shitty university abroad (a waste of time and money if it is some chapalang university) if they have rich parents.

      Let me tell you about a friend in VJC. After her prelims in 2nd year, it was clear she was going to end up with a bunch of fails for the A levels if she went ahead. So her v rich parents decided to send her to America, where she could do a 9 months bridging course that would guarantee her a place in a university (a chapalang university) if she completed that bridging course and then she could get a degree in a choice of subjects - and I was at first cynical, like, you should just take an extra year to study harder and take your A levels when you're ready ... but in the end, she returned from America, armed with a degree in America - found herself a rich husband and got married. Et viola. Such is life.

      So not everyone from JC makes it to a local university either - the % who make it vary from JC to JC - but for those who do not make it, they are stuck in a worse position than their poly counterparts who - like you said - are in at least possession of a diploma which enables them to enter the workforce.

      Delete
    12. Hi Limpeh,

      I do think there is a need to contextualize the situation especially in Singapore - you do need a degree to "succeed" in that narrow little way that Singaporeans have been taught is what success means. I am guessing you would say that it is a very narrow and poor view of what success means, and coming from a non-conventional background, I totally agree that we sometimes have a too narrow view of success - but pragmatically speaking, like you said in your latest post on degrees, the degree is one quick way to filter out applicants when there are simply too many, and with 6.9 million, that is definitely too many. Let's face it - you wouldn't even get a second look for that executive level position if you didn't have that degree, and dream on about that promotion if you are in the civil service/public sector if you don't have that branded university degree.

      I totally agree with you a degree doesn't make someone automatically capable - I have a friend who is driven, smart, eloquent and reads in his spare time about financial markets and stuff like that simply because that is his interest (while the rest of us are out getting drunk) but he can't get an interview because he is from SIM; meanwhile, he has NUS friends flunking interviews because they have no clue what they are talking about, and it is this simplistic approach to generalizing who is talented and not, when brought to extremes in an environment like Singapore, that is making the driven and motivated younger generation extremely restless and frustrated (and companies equally frustrated because all the graduates seem to be duds).

      I think we have to be careful when classifying what is a sense of entitlement against frustration against a system that (I feel) is ultimately doing a bad job at classifying who is talented and not, and there is a very grey area in between - like yourself, you are frustrated against the Singaporean government for treating you well as an expat only under the guise of a foreigner, but that doesn't necessarily equate to you having a sense of entitlement to having a high position in Singaporean society because you are a scholar, and I guess the analogy and frustration applies to students who have done well both locally and overseas, but continue to be overlooked in Singapore, sometimes because, as I like to quote from that Jack Neo movie, "Ang Moh idea is always very special! Even if I have to pay more, I don't mind!" which generally reflects the PAP's policies of Chinese self loathing and praise for everything foreign.

      I think ultimately, we don't have to worry too much - these are problems even the most developed countries face with underemployment of graduates. The thing that is excaberating the problem and making it seem worse is the whole Asian culture nonsense of looking down on less qualified jobs, and that whole bullshit about "I'm a manager/earn more than you, so you have to defer to me and listen to me in everything, don't question", which is putting a lot of self-created, unnecessary pressure on people to get "respectable" professional jobs. Singapore definitely has a long way to go before we reach the level of respect for blue collar workers in places like the UK/Australia etc.

      Delete
    13. Hi there, thanks again for your reply.

      1. I am glad you have used the term 'branded university' - to coin a phrase... so by that token, NUS is branded, SIM isn't - so why do people still bother with SIM then? Is a 2nd rate degree better than no degree at all? I don't believe in that - I believe that spending 3 years working is far more valuable than getting a degree from a 2nd rate university like SIM, but what can i say, I have been away from S'pore for so long.

      2. Are all the graduates duds? That bad meh? Aiyoh.

      3. Yes i actually do have that DVD of that Jack neo movie xiao hai bu ben.

      4. Again, i concur with you on the last point about underemployment - at the end of the day, i feel sorry for the parents who pay for their children to go to a 2nd rate university like SIM, at the back of their mind, they must know that SIM is not NUS and will never be and when you show up at a job interview with an SIM degree, the first thought that crosses the HR manager's mind must be, 'tsk tsk he didn't get into NUS/NTU/SMU - had to settle for SIM'. The parents must know they are paying for an inferior product, but what can they do? Tell the kid to go into the working world without a degree? It is their hard earned money they are spending on their child's degree - this is not free education sponsored by the state.

      I have said before - if your child earns himself a place at Oxford, then beg/borrow/steal to pay the fees, but SIM? What is the point?

      Delete
    14. Re: so why do people still bother with SIM then? Is a 2nd rate degree better than no degree at all?

      I am one of the perfect examples lol. I passed my A levels with such crap results that couldn't qualify me for NUS/NTU (i got D,D,E) so the only other options were 1) retake A levels which seemed quite scary for me, what if I got crap results again? 2)go overseas chapalang university and spend truckloads of parents $$ or 3) go chapalang SIM and take UOL distance learning degree.

      So I went to serve my 2.5 years NS (I took my A levels in 1998) and had platoon mates in a similar predicament. One of them had a sister in SIM and so he suggested 'hey! lets just go to SIM, cheaper than chapalang Aussie Uni and is still considered a degree, better than diploma'. So off we went after ording to studying the SIM-UOL banking and finance degree.

      When we graduated in 2004, the industry will still pretty boomy with Asia coming out of the SARS epidermic. My friends and I were't picky while looking for jobs, we basically settled for any banking jobs we could get our hands on including back office contract operations. I landed my first job within a week of looking (I wouldn't really call the meeting with the manager an 'interview' cause he was basically telling me what the job entailed), a 6 month contract role in SCB as a ops officer (doing random support functions). My other friends also took on similar contract roles and our pay was quite terrible (like 2K starting).

      But all in all, we still found our 2nd rate degree more useful than say a poly diploma. Banks are certainly biased again poly grads (Diploma holders are generally recruited under clerical schemes whereas degree holders are automatically given executive officer ranks etc) so even with a crappy degree we were still hired as officers and as you know, once we start working, other organizations look at your working experience rather than qualifications henceforth (cept local banks cos their recruitment forms ask you to list your results for every single subject, so sometimes you get the occasional eh why your results so cui question...). So overall, I would say the 2nd rate degree did serve its purpose as a stepping stone to landing our first jobs.

      Even though the jobs we accepted back then were kinda bad compared to what we expected NUS/NTU grads to apply for, at least we managed to get a job relatively easily and as you know once you start working, employees generally just look at your work experience rather than what degree you have henceforth. Since then, my friends and I have all been doing well since as long as you have the right attitude, experience and ace your interviews, most employers do not look at our degrees anymore.

      Delete
    15. Hiya - thanks for your comment. Yeah I think you've hit the nail on the head and if I may summarize it as:

      1. The degree is really only there to get you there your first job upon graduation, after that work experience becomes more and more important. That was the case for you and certainly was the case for me as well.

      2. A degree from SIM is not a death sentence, it just means the odds are against you when you are - say up for a job vs an NUS or Oxford graduate. A lot of it depends on what the company is looking for at that time and other non-academic factors involved in the selection.

      Delete
    16. The problem without a degree in Singapore is for jobs that specify a degree, even if you match the job experience, likely HR will filter you out. They are not even going to read the Job Experience section once you don't have degree. The only way to skip this filter is a strong internal referral.

      Yes, SG companies are that pampered even in a 'tight' labour market. They still haven't gotten out of the labour buffet mentality. Just look at the recent news articles about companies being unable to find people with the right skills for: office support, supervisors and labourers. I wonder what kind of 'skills' they want. http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/nearly-half-of-s-porean-employers-having/689470.html

      Is no degree with job experience really better than a bad degree? There will be lots of foreigners with bad degree (maybe even worse than what SIM provides) and job experience to compete with.

      Delete
    17. Let me turn this around and ask you this then: if an SIM graduate is up against an NUS graduate, are they treated as equals by the HR dept or is the NUS graduate always going to get priority then?

      Delete
    18. Dear Limpeh,

      Can I also point out that Poor dad and probably yourself graduated at a time when the economy as a whole was looking much more promising and at almost full employment - it was much easier to get an entry level job back then if you will allow me to say that, and thus easier to build that experience that eventually makes the brand of the degree irrelevant. Of course, credit to yourself and Poor dad, and the people of your generation for making the most of your abundant opportunities back then - there is still a large amount of effort and hard work that is required to make good use of that experience and I recognize that.

      However, I think this is one factor we have to take into consideration especially with the increasingly tight labour market we are facing for entry level graduate jobs with decent progression and learning opportunities (combined with the bullshit PAP tells us about Singaporeans shunning PMET white collar jobs in banking and finance, thus we have to bring in foreign fresh grads) - all I am trying to say is that even grads from "branded" universities are finding it increasingly hard in this environment to get that first step in and have to work as $500 a month interns (unless papa and mama know someone, of course), and while most of us from this generation would take anything we get, we are also faced with generalizations that we are picky, lazy, etc...

      Delete
    19. Totally correct - I graduated in 2000 after the dotcom bubble burst but before the big crash of 2008, so I had 8 v productive and lucrative years to build a career before times got v hard. Younger people who graduated after 2008 would have had a much tougher time getting their first job.

      Do you think there is any truth to the generalization that younger people are generally more picky/lazy? I look at someone like Jerard Lee and think, yup, totally - but then again, he's just one person out of how many younger Singaporeans... then you look at that kena-hantam guy in this story and it shows a different side to this generation.

      Delete
    20. Limpeh - I thought Jerald Lee was closer to your generation than mine! Anyway, generally, I think it is dangerous to generalize any generation of people - every generation faces their own set of challenges and it is a matter of making the most of what opportunities are presented to you, relative to what the rest of your generation are doing. This Gen Y may have all the material comforts, but the expectations stemming from that are much higher and anything less than a degree (as you have noted) is usually considered a failure - stressful one leh! Compare this to baby boomers, who would have been more than happy with a factory job at the same age.

      Anyway, for example, the baby boomers can be generalized as being obstinate and stubborn people who always think they are right and aren't open to new ideas, your generation (Gen X) would probably be generalized as the arrogant ones who rode the wave of the booming economy and reaped its rewards, etc etc - it never ends, and your generation (I'm assuming Gen X) was probably getting the same shit the younger generation is getting now from the baby boomers (yuppie jokes, remember?)

      Anyway, like I said, every generation has their leaders, the driven people, and the lazy bastards, and it is all a matter of making the most of the opportunities given to you. I know people your age who are still living off their parents, and I also know people my age (Gen Y) who work two jobs to pay their school fees.

      I worked odd jobs while studying and my first job offer after graduating was below RM3k, (yes, Malaysian Ringgit) which I was going to accept because of the learning opportunities I felt it was going to give me - my baby boomer parents were the ones who said "You're an idiot, sit in my office and I'll pay you more" - so naturally I bristle at "strawberry generation" accusations (so much that I am writing to you this reply in the middle of the night) just like you would naturally bristle at "arrogant Gen-X yuppie" accusations!

      So yes anyway, Jerald Lee - he's your generation, not mine! I'll claim the kena-hentam guy as Gen Y though, ha ha

      Delete
    21. I am 37, Jerard Lee is 30, Mr Kena-hantam is 29 ... how old are you?

      Delete
    22. I am Yoda, I am centuries old... Just kidding, I'm 24. Guess its kinda hard to categorize them into Gen X/Y!

      Delete
    23. Alamak, you are a baby! You can call me uncle Limpeh....

      Delete
    24. Dear Limpeh,

      Just thought of sharing some insight on why 3 years ago a 16 year kid like me choose the poly route.

      1:My O level result sux

      2:JC is like a second round of secondary education system which will bored me to death

      3:One of the most important reasons is that I really want to pursue my interest in computer science/information system field. Rather than the doing something I don't like.

      With the reasons above, I went to poly to get my diploma in information technology. Now I'm 19 years old a top 10% student from my cohort and a partner of a Startup IT solutions company. So back to the story, with my decent/above average resume and GPA im confident that i can get into a local uni like NUS/NTU without problem.

      Additional story of my life: Im currently being paid 500-2k for my "part time" work and theres no problem in earning more than 3k(with company shares) next year when i graduate.Who knows maybe one of the apps I made is well received by the market. I may be a millionaire! :D

      Cheers!

      Delete
  6. Dear Limpeh,

    I had read a few of your posts and many of your points resonate with me too. Coincidentally, I had the same results as Poor dad (D,D,E) for my A levels. Being part of the "dragon" batch where competition is stiff and knowing my results will never get me to any local university, I enrolled in SIM.

    SIM is not a university per se. Infact it is separated into two entities: SIM University (which is slated to be the next university alongside SIT) and SIM Global Education (SIM GE).

    SIM GE does not award degrees. Instead it partners with overseas universities to award the degree. While I agree that most people enter SIM because they are less academically inclined and I alone am responsible for my results, there were a few interesting cases:

    I know many JC and Integrated Program students who came into SIM because something happened during A levels and they did not want to retake A levels or take the relatively less popular choices in local university.

    There were a few people who left their courses in local universities to come into SIM. Most of them realized that it was not their interest, so they decided to take a huge risk and left the "safety" of the local brand.

    There were also several odd cases that makes me wonder why they ended up in SIM in the first place. Again, it was probably because something happened during their A levels. One of them will be starting his Masters in Economics at LSE this coming September.

    Why am I sharing these anecdotes? Because I found that while the university "brand/name" matters, it does not fully reflect the potential of individuals. It is fascinating somehow to observe that just like a change in attire, the difference in the brand of university will instantly change a person's impression of you.

    While most of my sharing above sounds like common sense, it is not to say that people should go to SIM. If I could advise my juniors, I will still say this: go NUS if possible, and perhaps other local universities before you consider SIM.

    Too often, young people naively assume that getting a "Banking & Finance" degree will allow them to step into banks. Or they took "Business Management" to "do business". It may seem dumb to working adults, but we were once clueless youths too (unless we had professional parents, relatives or friends who advised us from an early age).

    Personally, I took Economics with the explicit interest of potentially entering academia in the future, but I decided not to do so after considering the opportunity costs and competition involved.

    With regards to the SIM internship system, critics are quick to point out its flaws. Some of the criticisms are valid, but few people actually know that the internship system is probably less than 2 years old- it was developed from scratch, and there is much to be improved on. Personally, I sourced for my own internships, so I had no complaints whatsoever.

    In addition, many of the school facilities and services such as the new building, Student Life Services, Networking Events and enrichment classes were virtually nonexistent in 2009. Even though there were issues involved, credit should still be given where it is due.

    This is not to create PR for SIM- I have no incentive to try to inflate its image since I already said that I will advise my juniors to choose local universities before SIM. However I hope that it will provide some insights to outsiders and allow us to judge the situation more objectively.

    Thanks for your patience in reading this post! Have a good day!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi there - thanks for sharing your insights. It is only too easy to bash SIM after what happened to this intern who kena-hantam, so it is good to have your side of the story.

      I just wish to make a simple point though - for Singaporean students, unless you can get a scholarship - it is your parents who are paying for your degree and it is a lot of money, so Singaporean students should be very careful when choosing their degree choices and ensure that they make the most of their parents' funding.

      Delete
  7. Hey LIFT, I just came across this rather silly piece of news at http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/new-licensing-scheme-news-websites-reach-50000-people-month-20130528....It is freaking retarded to expect anyone to register with the MDA especially if he or she is based overseas lol...now, how stupid can people get?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah I have seen that - I will write a blog post about it later today, it's just I am up to my eyeballs in work right now, but I do think it's just going to change the nature of alternative news in Singapore and drive people to alternative sites like blogs and FB which the MDA can't censor.

      Like I'd like to see how the MFA is going to try to stop people from speaking ill about the PAP on social media such as FB.

      Delete