There have been two kinds of responses to Jerard Lee's story - firstly, there was the typical xenophobic anti-foreigner sentiments directed at the company (well, there are xenophobic Singaporeans, we all know that). Secondly, there were some people who pointed out that Jerard had made a terrible mistake by going public with this story without first trying to resolve things internally with his employers. I would like to offer my personal response to this story and talk about some of the issues involved in this story.
Now I am going to point out that this kind of name-calling and bullying is nothing new in Singapore - heck, anyone who has served national service in Singapore will know that this kind of name-calling and bullying tactics are completely normal in the SAF. I understand that things have improved considerably since the 1990s when I served NS, but there is still a precedent, a culture where this kind of bullying is not just tolerated but silently condoned by the system.
There are plenty of Singaporeans bullying other Singaporeans in Singapore everyday and there are plenty of Singaporean bosses who are nasty to their Singaporean employees. Unpleasant as it may seem, learning to deal with unreasonable bosses and colleagues is a fact of life and I fear that many Singaporeans on social media are distorting the issue altogether. Do you actually believe that you will be better off working under a boss who is Singaporean? Even if you got rid of every single foreigner in Singapore tomorrow and created a Singaporean-only workspace - guess what? We already have that - it is called the SAF (foreigners cannot serve in the SAF) and there's plenty of bullying there. Why? This has nothing to do with one's nationality - but it boils down to the synergy between two people when they try to work together.
Hands up those of you who experienced bullying in NS |
Am I excusing this kind of bullying tactic (as displayed by Amit Patel, Ruben Kempeneer)? No, not at all, in an ideal world, such people would not behave like that and if they did, those higher up the food chain should step in and stop them from behaving like that. But in the real world, we all know that doesn't happen. Get real. I get the feeling that some Singaporeans still behave like they are in primary school, where they can run to the teacher if something is wrong, if someone misbehaves and expect the teacher to put things right. "Teacher, teacher, he scold my mother, he say my mother work in Geylang one!"
If you are a ten year old in primary school and if you do have a teacher you can count on to rectify that situation on your behalf, then by all means, go run to your teacher. But if not, what do you do? Did it occur to you that you could try to deal with the situation yourself? "When your mother tried to work in Geylang, all the Geylang pimps said her face was so kena-sai that they made her wear a paper bag over her face when she served the clients."
A rude sales director? What were you expecting? For crying out aloud, this is a SALES environment. If you wanted to primary school environment, you should have trained to be a primary school teacher where you could feel a lot more comfortable. In a sales environment, there is only one way to gain the respect of your boss - by selling. If you hit your sales targets, they will be nice to you. If you exceed your sales targets, they will love you and take you out for lunch at nice restaurants. If you can't sell, then don't expect them to sayang-sayang you by giving you a nice pep talk over a cup of herbal tea. Amit sounds like a very typical sales director to those of us who have worked in sales and whilst his tactics may not sound nice, you will encounter the same kind of management style anywhere in the world if you want to work in sales.
It really boils down to one thing only: can you sell? |
Why do people want to work in sales in the first place? It is not an easy job, you need to have a very thick skin and face a lot of rejection - however, if you can sell, you will be rewarded handsomely by generous commission structures. Depending on the kind of product and commission structure your company has, sales people can expect anything from 1% to even 30% on a deal and if the deal is worth $1 million, then even 1% of a million is $10,000 and there's repeat business as well. Successful sales professionals can make a lot of money and they write their own pay cheque every month depending on how much they sell. This is why people work in sales - to get rich.
VRL Singapore Timetric sell research and information to the financial services sector - this is a highly lucrative industry with very high profit margins. For example, a report like this: The Family Office Report costs US$4995. The report has already been commission and written - now there are virtually no additional costs associated with the sale as all they do is give you a password to access the report online. This is very similar to the way you pay to download a song off iTunes - there are no additional costs involved when you to download the mp3, their revenue is practically 100% profit.
There is a lot of money to be made with companies dealing in electronic media. |
With this business model, they can sell the same product over and over and over against at no additional costs associated with each sold. Compare this to say a business which sells cars, shoes or cosmetics, where they do have a lot more hard costs associated with the product. All media content sold over the internet works (films, porn, music, e-books, information etc) exactly the same way, following the same business model. Companies selling electronic media this way can afford to pay their salespeople very high commissions because of their very high profit margins. Allow me to state the obvious: Jerard had a very good job, he just didn't realize it: a clear case of 身在福中不知福.
Employees at Timetric would hit the phones hard everyday, calling up practitioners in the financial services industry, trying to sell these products to us. Now I have not been approached by Timetric yet, but I have been targeted by one of their rivals in Singapore, Eurekahedge. And good grief, their sales people are quite frankly, terrible. They just go on and on about how great their product is but have made virtually no effort to establish a rapport with me. Despite the fact that I obviously have a Chinese surname, none of them have managed to figure out that I am actually from Singapore and there is the obvious Singaporean connection. They don't even talk about the fact that they are in Singapore. Nope, they couldn't be less interested in me and all they wanted to do was tell me about their products - major fail.
Did the people from Eurekahedge not realize that Limpeh is from Singapore?! |
I have spent years in the lucrative sales environment in financial services (ie. B2B business-to-business, not business-to-consumer) and I have made my fortune in the heady days of the mid 2000s before the recession hit, having earned enough in 2004 alone to pay for my flat in central London, the start of my property portfolio. It was a high pressure environment, fiercely competitive and there was plenty of drama. It was amazing how seemingly good friends would betray you over a few thousand pounds - but such was the sales environment for you. I was stabbed in the back and I stabbed others in the back. You know the saying, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen and I saw many people fail miserably in sales because they simply couldn't handle the demands of the job.
In sales, you need to listen to your clients, understand their needs, empathize with them, make them feel comfortable with you and earn their trust. You need to establish that kind of relationship before you can get them to spend money with you. Now you have to approach prospects with one aim in mind: to make a sale. Even if they are nasty people whom you may despise in real life, you put all that aside and you have to establish that good business relationship. You must get the business prospect to like you, like your company and trust you enough to to do business with you. If Jerard wasn't able to apply that basic principle with his own boss Amit, then how the hell was he going to apply that principle with his sales prospects? That piece of evidence tells us two things: that Jerard is simply not cut out to be a salesman as he doesn't the fundamental principles of how sales works. Where do we go from there?
Why was Jerard stabbed in the back at Timetric? |
Let's move on to the next part of Jerard's complaint. "The first incident occurred about when Amit took my wallet which was on my desk. He screened through my wallet and took out my IC to inspect it. When he saw the photo displayed in my IC, he began to laugh very loudly in front of other colleagues. I felt very insulted because what he did was insensitive, unsympathetic and immature. The second bullying incident happened when my ex-colleague brought her 4 year old daughter to the office and Amit made a remark to everyone saying "Ask your daughter to come tomorrow as she can make better sales calls than Jerard." This disparaging remark belittled me and my ability in making sales calls. As a sales director, he should motivate the sales staff by encouragement and set a good leadership example, not the opposite by saying such a remark."
Jerard could have made a lot of money at Timetric. |
Good grief. Learn to grow a thick skin for crying out aloud Jerard and stop being such a fucking cry baby. You are acting like a primary two kid who would go running to her teacher, crying the moment she got into a disagreement with a fellow classmate. I have encountered plenty of incidents like the IC photo joke - there is a window period of about 10 seconds for you to come up with a rebuttal and say something like, "Alright Mr Photogenic, so you think you know better, let's see some photo ID so the rest of us can scrutinize your photo as well." There are several ways you can respond to such a situation - you can challenge to turn the tables and scrutinize him the same way, you could use the American "your mama" approach and insult them back or you can join in and laugh at how bad your photo is because a little self-deprecation goes a long way. Basically, if I am able to laugh at myself, then it takes the sting out of someone else's attempt to laugh at us. Otherwise, you can always tell the other party that you felt offended and that the line was crossed. Either way, you should have said something rather than keep quiet.
And as for the remark about the 4 year old daughter, please lah Jerard. Tolong lah, for fuck's sake, this is a sales environment and he's your sales director, not your primary school teacher lah. What the fuck were you expecting? There are no sales directors in the world who will sayang-sayang you and hold your hand as you make sales calls. Again, you had the opportunity to respond, there was a window period for you to say something like, "Ask your daughter to come tomorrow as she does a far better job in motivating everyone around here than Amit." No, instead you just say there and felt sorry for yourself. How the hell do you expect us to have any sympathy for you when you have such a defeatist's attitude?
I was also subjected to excessive monitoring as I was forced to sit beside Amit without any clear say of my sitting arrangement. He was able to see my computer screen and could monitor every action and movement which I make. Last week, he sent me a private email stating "less reading... more talking". Being supervised until so closely, there was a tremendous amount of pressure on me mentally because of the lack of trust from Amit and as a subordinate, I had no privacy to do my work.
Listen, Amit has far better things to do than you scrutinize your every move - if you had been hitting your sales targets, then he would gladly leave you alone and let you get on with it. But if you are clearly failing, then as your line manager, he has the responsibility to try to make you work harder and improve your results - what he did was completely normal and I am not sure I would have been as patient as him in putting up with your pathetic whiny antics.
As for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle email - I just wanted to laugh. For fuck's sake Jerard, are you a fucking man or a mouse? Grow some balls for fuck's sake you pathetic fucking loser. Limpeh is an Ah Beng from Ang Mo Kio and I would never take that kind of treatment lying down. If you feel that Amit and Ruben have crossed the line, then by all means, challenge them, raise hell - go to head office, go to Ruben's boss, confront them all and demand an apology.
But what do you do? You feel sorry for yourself and gave up a good job despite being the sole breadwinner of your family. How bloody stupid was that? You acted foolishly, you made a rash decision and it was the wrong decision. You have let down your wife and your young child. Look, colleagues forward jokes to each other all the time - sometimes they sail close to the wind and may offend people and you should have dealt with the situation rather than simply resigned. You may want to play the victim's card but what will that get you? You think Timetric is going to give a shit that you resigned? You think the police or the MOM are going to help someone like you just because you claimed you're bullied? Get real man. And now you're unemployed. Great. I feel sorry for your wife and kid - they deserve better.
But what do you do? You feel sorry for yourself and gave up a good job despite being the sole breadwinner of your family. How bloody stupid was that? You acted foolishly, you made a rash decision and it was the wrong decision. You have let down your wife and your young child. Look, colleagues forward jokes to each other all the time - sometimes they sail close to the wind and may offend people and you should have dealt with the situation rather than simply resigned. You may want to play the victim's card but what will that get you? You think Timetric is going to give a shit that you resigned? You think the police or the MOM are going to help someone like you just because you claimed you're bullied? Get real man. And now you're unemployed. Great. I feel sorry for your wife and kid - they deserve better.
Likewise for the sale you made that morning you resigned, did you fight for justice or did you simply suffer in silence? Did the person who receive the fruits of your labour thank you or pretended to 'act blur' about the whole thing (but still gladly pocketed the commission)? You see, that's one thing that was missing from Jerard's story - there was no mention of anything pertaining to his colleagues. Did he have any friends at Timetric? If he did, did they try to help him when he was being bullied? Did they defend him against Amit and Ruben? Did they offer him any kind of moral support when he was feeling dejected? Or (as I am guessing), Jerard failed to make any friends or allies at Timetric and nobody reached out to help him as he crashed and burned. We all need friends and allies in the workplace. Whilst you cannot expect to like everyone at work, you should always make a genuine effort to get along with even those you despise whilst identifying people you can trust and turning them into your friends. After all, when things go wrong, you need help.
I remember back in 2003, a similar incident happened to my ex-colleague Julian who made a sale the day he resigned. The boss gave the commission to a colleague for the simple reason - why bother paying the guy who had just left? The boss felt that he may as well use the commission to reward someone else who has been working hard and is still with the company. Julian protested but to no avail - he was no longer an employee of the company, but Julian had already earned my friendship and loyalty. I stood up for him and told the boss that he was going to risk losing me if he didn't pay Julian his commission. I was the top sales person in the company at that time, I was single-handedly bringing in about half the company's revenue and I knew I could get what I wanted. Besides, I told the boss that I had helped Julian with the deal and it was effectively mine since I helped Julian close that deal. The other colleague wasn't even involved in the slightest, so there was no justification to give him even a penny. There was a lot of arguing but jump to the punchline, I got what I wanted and I had the choice of either taking all of the commission, sharing it with Julian or giving it all to Julian. I chose to give it all to Julian because that was how much he meant to me as a friend and it was the principle of the matter. I just wanted to win the argument, the money wasn't that important to me as I was already earning a lot then anyway.
When Jerard was facing such a situation, where were his friends? Did he even have any friends to turn to? Did he not have someone like me who would have stood up for him? Hey, I didn't stand up for Julian just because I am such a freaking nice guy. Julian had made a genuine effort to become my friend and I appreciated it, I reciprocated and that is the way friendships work. All that happened over ten years ago, we're still great friends today.
Despite this, I will stand up to fight for my rights and create awareness in Singapore. I will go all the way to make sure that justice is served and the bullies to face the consequences of their actions.
Editor's Note: This email has been forwarded to the MOM for clarifications. We urge everyone to stand up and fight for your rights as a Singaporean and put a stop to all this bullying by foreigners. Singapore belongs to Singaporeans not foreigners.
Groan. Jerard doesn't get it. Neither does the editor at TRS. Let me spell it out for you and the rest of you who still don't bloody get it. This case has nothing to do with the nationalities of those involved, it is not an FT vs Singaporeans issue at all. Had Jerard been working in media sales for another company in Singapore and had a Singaporean boss, he would have encountered exactly the same kind of issues because these are the job hazards the come with the territory if you want to work in sales. A Singaporean sales director would not be any kinder to someone like Jerard who clearly cannot cope in such an environment. Heck, even in a all-Singaporean environment like the SAF. any male Singaporean who has served NS would have seen plenty of Singaporeans bullying other Singaporeans.This is a clear case of a Singaporean finding a scapegoat to blame for his failures, rather than admitting any liability on his part. So for the benefit of of my readers, let me spell it out to you clearly where Jerard is at fault. There are 6 reasons:
1. Jerard could have made a much greater effort to get along with Amit and Ruben - he didn't have to like them but he had to maintain a working relationship with them. It seems that Jerard expects his managers to behave more like school teachers rather than colleagues - he could have tried to improve the quality of their relationship and it takes two hands to clap. Jerard, you can't just sit back and expect your manager to mentor you, motivate you, guide you and spoon-feed you. You are an adult, you can make an effort to reach out to him as well.
A working relationship is a two-way street. If you feel that things are going wrong, what do you do? Let things get from bad to worse, let a disaster turn into a catastrophe? Or do you swallow your pride and try your best to rectify the situation? Can you be a bit less childish about the whole situation Jerard?
2. Whilst I do not condone the things that Amit and Ruben have done, I think there was a lot that you could have done in terms of speaking up for yourself. If you stay silent, people may interpret your silence to be consent - but if you speak up and let people know how you feel, then they can react once they know how you feel. Don't diam diam boh chu xia, if you're genuinely buay song, you have to speak up!
3. If you are constantly hitting your sales targets, trust me, the sales director will leave you alone and let you get on with making money for the company. If you don't sell, that's his ass on the line as well as he is responsible for your performance as well. You should have understood that.
4. If you have any issues with your management, you must always try to resolve them internally within your company first - running to the media does not support your case. If your bullying charges are not acknowledged by Timetric or the authorities in Singapore, then you risk a serious libel suit.
5. You need to make friends and allies in such a competitive environment - who was the top sales person at Timetric? Did you make the effort to get to know him/her and become his/her best friend (the way Julian became my buddy)? It's pretty sad that you were allowed to crash and burn whilst colleagues stood by and looked the other way - but you reap what you sow. Welcome to the real world.
In any case, the MOM would not get involved over something this minor. Jerard couldn't cope in a high stress sales environment - there is no case to answer for in terms of the law and it would be up to Timetric if they wish to deal with the issue of the email. If the instances like laughing at the IC photo broke the law, the fucking hell, they could lock up half the SAF already with the amount of bullying going on in the army everyday. The government isn't going to lift a finger as well to help Jerard - it is simply too minor an issue for the police or any governmental body get involved.
The only question I would raise is with Timetric's HR department - how the hell could they give a sales job to someone like Jerard who is so clearly not suitable for such a job? What were they thinking when they gave him the job? By that token, I feel sorry for Amit for it would have been a total nightmare having to manage someone like Jerard. If Jerard worked for me... well, no - I would have blocked his job application at the interview stage and it would just never ever happen. It would've been to unkind to set him up to fail spectacularly like that.
Limpeh has been in the business world long enough to see loads of people try and fail at sales - loads of people are seduced by the prospect of earning big money but few actually succeed. The manpower turnover is ridiculous, many companies like Timetric churn and burn through so many sales people - it is such bad HR. They are wasting so much time and money by giving people like Jerard a chance to try and when he fails, they have to start all over again to find someone else and start training them from scratch. There must be a better way to do this! Simply hire the right people for the job, invest in their training. Pay them generously, treat them well, so they become loyal to the company and you hold on to the best sales people who will stay with the company through good and bad times.
Limpeh has been in the business world long enough to see loads of people try and fail at sales - loads of people are seduced by the prospect of earning big money but few actually succeed. The manpower turnover is ridiculous, many companies like Timetric churn and burn through so many sales people - it is such bad HR. They are wasting so much time and money by giving people like Jerard a chance to try and when he fails, they have to start all over again to find someone else and start training them from scratch. There must be a better way to do this! Simply hire the right people for the job, invest in their training. Pay them generously, treat them well, so they become loyal to the company and you hold on to the best sales people who will stay with the company through good and bad times.
In going public like that, Jerard has well and truly ruined his reputation. The next time a HR manager receives a job application from Jerard Lee (note the unusual spelling of his first name), all the HR manager has to do is google "Jerard Lee, Singapore" and all the related content on TherealSingapore's website as well as Facebook and EDMW will come up and even if the HR manager may not judge Jerard as harshly as I did, chances are, s/he will think, "this Jerard is potentially a trouble maker, what if things go wrong as well with us and he end up running to the MoM and complain about us? We don't want to be involved in a bullying scandal like Timetric, better not hire this guy when there are other applicants to choose from." I bet the people at Timetric are asking the same question now, "Who was the one who gave Jerard Lee a job in the first place?!? What were they thinking - look at the mess he created."
Let me remind Jerard of two sobering facts: firstly, we're in the middle of a recession still and there are not that many well paid jobs out there for him to choose from in Singapore where he faces fierce competition. Secondly, he has a wife (who is a housewife) and a young child and as the sole breadwinner of his family, they are in financial trouble now. He really needs to be thinking about them, rather than feeling sorry for himself at this point in time!
No company will want to risk getting involved in a scandal. |
Let me remind Jerard of two sobering facts: firstly, we're in the middle of a recession still and there are not that many well paid jobs out there for him to choose from in Singapore where he faces fierce competition. Secondly, he has a wife (who is a housewife) and a young child and as the sole breadwinner of his family, they are in financial trouble now. He really needs to be thinking about them, rather than feeling sorry for himself at this point in time!
Well Jerard, what did you think was going to happen when you went public with your story? Did you think people would help you or feel sorry for you? Ha! Yes they love a good story and you may get a few statements of support from random strangers on Facebook who have an axe to grind with FTs in Singapore - but do you realize just how seriously you have screwed up your future job prospects? I hope you have rich parents who can support you whilst you're unemployed because no HR manager is going to touch you as long as this story is on the internet. Just no way. Good grief. You really weren't thinking this through, were you? Aiyoh. Alamak. As if your original story wasn't bad enough, I have just spent some time reading your thread on EDMW and after having seen what you've written, like dude. Any HR manager who read that would definitely put you on a black list - and if they don't have one, they would start a black list just for people like you.
You know, if only you had a really common name like John Lee or James Lee - there would be millions of John Lees and James Lees around the world and this story would disappear into the internet in a matter of days. But hey, your parents had to call you Jerard spelt that unique way, so now this story will be associated with you for as long as the internet lasts. Oh dear. Once you've calmed down, you may just realize how badly you've fucked this one up Jerard. Listen, if I could offer you one good piece of advice. Well make that two. Firstly, stop this nonsense right now. You are not going to get anywhere with this. And secondly, if you ever want to find work again, you need to change your name so people wouldn't associate you with this ghastly episode. Use your Chinese name or something but you don't want any HR manager to be able to connect you with this terrible mistake you've made.
Lastly, let this be a lesson to anyone who think they may receive good advice by asking random strangers for help on the internet. Surely Jerard may feel good when he reads the anti-foreigner xenophobic statements left on social media for him, but are any of them actually able to help Jerard get a new job? I did actually find one kind soul who had actually bothered to write a long reply to Jerard on EDMW (which he didn't respond to, quelle surprise). Now that's a real shame as this was the one person who actually did offer Jerard some really useful and sensible advice (compared to the hundreds of idiots who offered bad advice) and I shall cut and paste it below.
Your decision on how to deal with events leading to your resignation is a major contributor factor that will affect chances of your future employment.
1. Without going through proper channels, you chose to publicize internal emails to the public.
2. You willingly assisted to confirm identity of the involved individuals, and the organization. If proven otherwise (ie. bullying charges doesn't stand, libel suit may be initiated against you).
3. You're contemplating getting professionally certified to be mentally affected. Depression perhaps? This will be on your record.
4. You alleged that by posting your FB account, your life is affected? Eh! This is EDMW! Numerous FB accounts have been stated by strangers. Same can be said about this dude who labeled you a turtle, no?
5. You're kinda 'trigger-happy'. No qualms about approaching MPs, Police, MSM, Internet, etc.
Ask yourself this: Will you hire an individual that possesses the above traits? Sinkie or non-Sinkie, I wouldn't hire you. Cos I'll be utterly clueless when something might spark you to do likewise to me and my company. A ill-timed jibe of bad taste may lead the company to be cast under such limelight. Such are potential pitfalls that I try to shun away from.
My motto: If you cannot 100% ensure that such things do not happen, avoid them. As much as you seek 'justice', do seriously consider what you actually seek to achieve? You want them sacked? - That's the mgmt's prerogative. Not yours. Not MOM's. Not the cops. Should after investigation, they decided to just issue warning letters, ... that also equates action taken. Where does that leave you?
For the sake of you, and your family, I trust you do know what you want. Cool down, and try to rationalize your actions. Know what you can, and cannot achieve. And more importantly, do consider the potential repercussions of all, or any, of your actions.
Is it too late for Jerard to try to salvage the situation? |
As usual, any comments, any ideas or advice for Jerard, please let a comment below. Thanks!
Part 2: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/jerard-lee-vs-timetric-case-part-2.html
Part 2: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/jerard-lee-vs-timetric-case-part-2.html
Hi LIFT, you got the company name wrong, it's VRL Timetric Singapore not “VLR”. You mentioned about name-calling and bullying in Singapore. I agree with you it is nothing new and heck, I've been through them as well in my period of serving NS. Now, for my case I would like to highlight that it is workplace bullying. Definition of workplace bullying - "Persistent, offensive, abusive, intimidating or insulting behaviour, abuse of power or unfair penal sanctions which makes the recipient feel upset, threatened, humiliated or vulnerable, which undermines their self-confidence and which may cause them to suffer stress" - MSF Union, 1994
ReplyDeleteJust to share with you about my working background. I have been mainly doing sales all along with reputable financial institutions in the banking and financial services industry. VRL Timetric Singapore is my latest employment. As you might or might not know, Singapore does not have any legislation specifically covering workplace bullying. Many victims of workplace bullying suffer in silence alone and they are afraid to speak up for the fear of losing their much-needed jobs. Senior management of some companies might abuse their power (which some of the methods used are bullying) especially to the low level executives and if they have the top management to back them up.
It's a little relief to hear that you are not excusing this kind of bullying tactic (as displayed by Amit Patel, Ruben Kempeneer). I will not drift into the topic of bullying in Primary School but in the context of my incidents. As for my case, the bully is my direct supervisor, Amit and his supervisor, Ruben. So there is no point for me to confront them as you see in the email that Ruben sent which strongly backed Amit's earlier email of me as a Ninja Turtle. So, I'm left with 2 options – HR and MOM right? By reporting the bullying incidents to both the parties means that in the meantime, I have to endure more instances of bullying and as someone in the forums mentioned before, some of the HR in the companies tend to side senior management. Afterall, why should they side an executive who is not even at management level and would rather protect the interests of the senior management whom can develop the growth and strategy of the company moving forward.
If you go and google the qualities of a sales director, some of the qualities displayed would be integrity, positive, leadership by example, motivation, listening and communication. I must say that the latter is important as some of our ex-colleague had feedback to Amit about the work processes, challenges etc but they were not resolved promptly as a whole. During my first face to face meeting with him, I also highlighted the problems and issues that I have, well he did try to resolve some for me but in the later stages, they were being ignored. I will not go into details on that. All along, I worked with sales managers, sales directors and this is the first time I encountered a rude sales director. You mentioned that I cried out aloud as it is a sales experience but tell me, how did a sales director manage to get into that particular position if he listed his personal quality as “rude”. I personally feel that no HR would want to hire a sales director like that. Yes, although KPIs are measured by sales targets, shouldn't the sales director be coaching and guiding a staff who has difficulty hitting the sales target? On a side note, my ex-colleague had excellent sales achievement but the way that the ex-colleague was treated by Amit was also similar to my predicament.
OK hello Jerard, welcome to Limpeh's blog, I never expected you to come here to comment directly but well done for having the balls to do so. Allow me to respond to your points.
Delete1. I have corrected the typo of VLR/VRL - thanks for pointing that out to me.
2. Yeah, you and I have both been through NS - a Singaporean-only environment - and I am not condoning any kind of bullying, not at all. Look, if you have read my posts about NS, I totally condemn the bullying that goes on in NS but the fact is, bullying still happens a lot there even in the absence of foreigners. The point I am making is this: Amit's nationality is irrelevant to this case, yes his bullying tactics are wrong but why are you making such a big deal about his nationality, unless you're being xenophobic? You see how you can lose an argument like this by barking up the wrong tree?
3. I fell into financial sales upon graduation - long story, I hated my first job upon graduation and was desperate to take the first better thing that came along and that's how I got into financial sales and then I got totally seduced by the commissions. At one stage, I was earning more in a month than my dad did in a year as a teacher in S'pore - that was the period 2003-4. Yeah, that's why I got stuck in it for so many years, made my money, bought my flats in London and then I decided, okay, it is time to try to do other things that I want to do with my life in the arts before I grow too old but I am still working as a strategist for a hedge funds consultancy as I am still in love with the money in finance and people who work 100% in the arts starve, fact of life lah. So if you are father with a family to provide for - it is a very good job to have.
4. I'm saying however, that you're not very flexible in your thinking. You have this 'run to the teacher/person in authority' approach to resolve the bullying, when dealing with the bully directly by using humour and wit (as suggested by some on the EDMW forum) may also work - especially in the context of S'pore. Listen, if you were in the UK, you could get the your union involved, there are various charities etc you can approach but in S'pore, face it, you are alone, there's no one who will help you. HR dept will take the side of the management and MOM will not lift a finger to help you, your MP will not upset a company providing employment to so many people (it wouldn't take much for them to relocate to KL or Bangkok) and the police? Are you kidding me? You have to look at the situation in terms of the context of SINGAPORE - and your best bet in resolving the situation would've been to confront Amit & Ruben yourself and try to either show them that you're tough, you're an Ah Beng, this Limpeh bu hao re attitude ... or you can try to win them over and make them like you so they will stop bullying you. Such was the reality of the situation - you did not have an alternative. You are in Singapore - yes it sucks but you have to face the truth.
5. You can wax lyrical about how Amit should've behaved as a sales director but at the end of the day, that's an internal HR issue for Timetric to deal with and you don't have a say in it - clearly, they have already let you know their stance on the issue and you are not going to change their mind. At most, they will issue them with a letter of warning over the issue and then they can say, okay we have dealt with the issue internally - then what? What have you gained? Nothing. You can't win this fight, get real.
Delete6. As for sales directors ... I measure them like sports coaches - you will see that I use a lot of sports analogies in my writing. I measure a sales director by their performance (ie. the team's sales figures) not how happy the team is. Likewise, I measure a sports coach by just how many gold medal the team wins at the competitions, not how happy the team is. Welcome to the harsh, tough world of business - this is not a primary school classroom where he is there to sayang sayang you and hold you hand, make sure everyone is having fun - he is there to deliver results and if you're not pulling your weight, tough - a sales director will get rid of you.
It's not what you wanna hear, but you have to realize that this is the harsh truth and there's nothing you can do to change the way it is. If you don't like the way it is, then you should really work in another industry.
I would like to dispute on your point of “jerard had a very good job, he just didn't realize it: a clear case of 身在福中不知福.” When I first joined VRL Timetric Singapore, they had a very condusive working environment, without any politics and colleagues were all very helpful toward one another. I had very good guidance by the previous sales director and respected the previous sales director for the professional and excellent leadership. Things only began to change after the re-organisation whereby Amit and Ruben joined the company. As you go through the bullying incidents which I relate, you would have realised that I had to undergo a lot of mental torment and suffered in silence. I'm just earning basic salary to bring home so that I can support my family and spend time with them.
ReplyDeleteAnother dispute when you mentioned “ Jerard wasn't able to apply that basic principle with his own boss Amit, then how the hell was he going to apply that principle with his sales prospects? That piece of evidence tells us two things: that Jerard is simply not cut out to be a salesman as he doesn't the fundamental principles of how sales works. Where do we go from there?” You do not have facts to back this statement.
First of all, when I speak to prospects, I would like to find out their needs, and to build a basic relationship with them. I also took over the portfolio of previous sales colleagues whom had already left and service them well. Whenever they have issues, I will do all I can to help them resolve it. I absolutely do not agree with the hard-sell sales approach because clients will only buy products which they have a need for and not want were pushed to them.
Your next statement on “Learn to grow a thick skin for crying out aloud Jerard and stop being such a fucking cry baby.” Ok how would you have handled it if someone looks at your IC and laugh out loudly in front of your friends/colleagues to shame and humiliate you? Based on your statement above, probably you wouldn't feel offended and thank him for that. As for me, it's insult and humiliation.
Let me deal with these points here.
Delete1. If you get a good sales director, then great - but if you get a bad sales director, then you cannot simply sulk and allow yourself to sink! You have to fight and prove yourself! The easiest way is to prove yourself by selling more than anyone else - but otherwise, confronting Amit & Ruben directly could also be a solution; but there is always the option of going to go work elsewhere. Loads of people change jobs after a few years, it is no big deal - it is the easiest solution. You move to a different company, get a different sales director and problem solved!
You have shot yourself in the foot because you no longer have that option. Even if you had a sales record, no one will dare to give you a job and risk getting involved in you blowing up like that and having an ex-employee go rogue on them by running to the media with all kinds of accusations without first trying to resolve them internally. You were the victim of bullying - I don't dispute that - but you have also exposed yourself as a highly unreasonable person, that is why I say you've lost the argument despite not being in the wrong.
As for facts to back that statement - it's simple. Amit doesn't like you. Amit is bullying you - Amit was making life hell for you - that's by your own admission. Have you ever tried teaching Amit like a sales prospect, but this time the product you are trying to sell him is that of Jerard Lee - yourself? Clearly, Amit isn't sold on the idea of Jerard Lee - you've failed in selling yourself to him, or maybe you didn't even try at all. You just don't get it do you? You treated him like a primary school teacher, rather than a sales director. Good grief. How salah is that, good grief. You just don't bloody get it do you? Limpeh is trying so hard to explain this nicely to you but you're just so bloody stubborn. Amit is not your primary school teacher, he was your sales director and the onus was on you to sell yourself to him as a good salesperson.
I don't have an IC, I am British and we don't do identity cards, but if someone looked at my passport photo and laughed, then I would - as I have explained in my blog above if you have bothered reading it - demanded to look at the person's photo ID and say, "Alright Mr Photogenic, so you think you know better, let's see some photo ID so the rest of us can scrutinize your photo as well."
I am an Ah Beng at heart, when I was a kid growing up in AMK, I would get into all kinds of fights over staring incidents, yeah I was that kind of chao Ah Beng. "kuah simi kuah!?" I would always react, say something, do something, challenge the person, insult them back, put them in their place but I would do what you did - which was suffer in silence. That tells me you're nothing but a coward.
On your next statement whereby Amit told everyone that my ex-colleague's daughter could make better sales call than me where you mentioned “No, instead you just say there and felt sorry for yourself. How the hell do you expect us to have any sympathy for you when you have such a defeatist's attitude?” Wow, so you would want me to reply Amit that I agree with him and my colleagues daughter can make better sales call than me. I'm pondering, how could a 4 year old make better sales calls than me as the profiles of the prospects are very senior people of different companies. As a sales director, this comment totally belittled my ability to perform and if he feels that I have performance issues, then he should be coaching me on sales calls instead of making this remark.
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned about “Listen, Amit has far better things to do than you scrutinize your every move - if you had been hitting your sales targets, then he would gladly leave you alone and let you get on with it. But if you are clearly failing, then as your line manager, he has the responsibility to try to make you work harder and improve your results - what he did was completely normal and I am not sure I would have been as patient as him in putting up with your pathetic whiny antics.” For your information, all the sales people are closely monitored and even for the top sales person, they did not get away with this. I do not see any relationship between hitting sales target and excessively monitoring.
“As for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle email - I just wanted to laugh. For fuck's sake Jerard, are you a fucking man or a mouse? Grow some balls for fuck's sake you pathetic fucking loser. Limpeh is an Ah Beng from Ang Mo Kio and I would never take that kind of treatment lying down. If you feel that Amit and Ruben have crossed the line, then by all means, challenge them, raise hell - go to head office, go to Ruben's boss, confront them all and demand an apology.” Go ahead and laugh but before you do, why dont you show a screenshot of you sending something like this to your top management.
“You think the police or the MOM are going to help someone like you just because you claimed you're bullied? Get real man. And now you're unemployed. Great. I feel sorry for your wife and kid - they deserve better. As a local Singaporean, to be bullied by a superior and his superior is a serious matter to me. I wouldn't comment whether the police or MOM would help me but I will stand up for my rights and go out all the way to make sure that justice is served.
Jerard failed to make any friends or allies at Timetric and nobody reached out to help him as he crashed and burned. I wouldn't comment on this as it might involve the legal lawsuit and implicate ex-colleagues. I would just say that in all my jobs, I maintain good relationships with my fellow peers.
And now you're unemployed. Great. I feel sorry for your wife and kid - they deserve better. You dont have to feel sorry, because through this incidents, I have lots of support from them.
Last but not least, I just want to say that I did not or have not promote any xenophobic or racism in Singapore. Singapore is a multi-racial country that I have grown up in and it's just unfortunate that the bullies of my workplace are FTS. I would want to share my incidents as I know there are a lot of similar incidents out there and any employees don't deserve that at all.
Oh ya, my parents gave me a unique name you can call me Steven Gerard just replace it with a J. It's the same pronounciation.
Let's move on to these points here.
Delete1. I never said you should agree with Amit. I said you should have opened your mouth and said something - I don't care whether you wish to use humour to mock him, use anger to voice your disagreement or tell him in a calm way that you didn't appreciate his statement, just open your bloody mouth and say something damnit. No, instead, you sat there gong gong diam diam boh chu xia like a dummy, for crying out aloud, are you a man or a mouse? Nobody was asking you to agree with him, but I was asking you to stand up for yourself there and then and challenge him, instead of sitting there like a stupid dummy unable to respond.
2. As for excessive monitoring - get used to it. All sales managers/directors put pressure on their staff to perform better. It comes with the territory and if you can't handle it, then don't work in sales. Let's say there are 5 people in the sales team and there is one sales director: he can only stand over one person at a time. Who do you think is going to be scrutinized the most? The person with the best sales performance or the person with the worst sales performance? You can easily move yourself out of the spotlight by not being the worst person on the team - and by your own admission, you were only earning the basic salary and not like doubling/tripling your income through lucrative commissions? No wonder you were being scrutinized like that.
You can scream and shout and kao beh kao bu all you want at the end of the day but the only person you will hurt is yourself and your wife & kid as a consequence of you being unemployed and unable to provide for your family. Like dude, what did you think is going to happen? Stop feeling sorry for yourself and get yourself a job for you have to be a responsible father. Think about your young child instead of yourself.
FYI, there are a lot of words in English starting with G but pronounced like a J: like Gymnasium, Geography, Gigantic, Gentle, Ginger, Genie, etc.
Mr Jerard Lee is talking shit, I think he has deluded himself, and is being influenced by others.
DeleteYou should wait until the truth on this story comes out, he is going to be in severe hardship for this stance he taken.
Exactly Jay, I have had a look at the EDMW forum (I don't take part in forums for good reason, I used to and got into too many flame wars to realize they're just not worth it) - Jerard is getting a lot of bad advice from people who just don't give a shit about him but are jumping on the band wagon because they have an axe to grind about FTs and the PAP's policy on letting in so many foreigners.
DeleteAt the end of the day, how many of these people can actually help Jerard get another job? Are they going to pay his bills for him and his family whilst he goes on this crazy wild goose chase for 'justice'? But go on, you seem to know something more than is not out there already and I'd love to hear from you and find out more about what you know... don't be shy, please spill the beans here, thanks!
Let's say there are 5 people in the sales team and there is one sales director: he can only stand over one person at a time. Who do you think is going to be scrutinized the most?
DeleteHahahahaha then like that Amit should be monitored and sit beside Ruben liao cos as a SD he bo bring in lui leh. 1 cent eh si bo bring in. wa every month wu bring in money hor. if SD cannot lead by example then shouldn't the top management do something abt the SD first.
Wa i really chio until peng. thx for ur blog really lighten my mood and atmospher as u noe i'm now under medical treatment. kum siah .
LIFT,
Deleteu wrong liao. cos of EDMW, a lot of fellow sinkies have offered me lots of job opportunities. i'm not afraid to tell u tat. sinkies help one another and stay united. dont tink that sinkie = sink.
i am going to tell u that sinkie = pa buay toh one ok and u dun have to keep re-emphasizing that i can't find job etc. sometimes there's a change in a person's life that he dont have to be an employee but can be an entrepreneur.
anyway really kum siah all ur advice, if u free and come to sg, we can go AMK and lim kopi!
Allow me to deal with your points.
DeleteOn the issue of leading by example - no, it doesn't work like that. You don't understand how hierarchies work. The boss has the luxury of delegating tasks to managers and workers - does the CEO of Honda actually motivate his workers down on the assembly line by joining in, working on the cars himself? No, he doesn't. Does the owner of a an airline like SQ actually work on the flights, serving passengers drinks in order to lead my example? No, he doesn't.
You are at the bottom of the pecking order, you are not in management, so you have no right to ask them to do what you do - they are there to manage you but don't forget, they are paying you very good money to do what you do and you have to accept that you are not in the army nor are you in school anymore. You shouldn't demand to be motivated. They're paying you a good salary - what more motivation do you need apart from money? I'm just being very practical here. Your attitude is very arrogant and you don't know when to be humble by looking at the big picture and figuring out where you stand in the big picture.
As for job offers from fellow S'poreans, well I hope they are serious because somebody has to pay the bills for your wife and child and for their sake, I hope you do get a new job very soon rather than pursuing this wild goose chase for justice. Being an entrepreneur is not easy you know, you need capital to start a business to begin with and when things go badly, then you could lose a lot of your own money. If you work for someone else, then you don't have that kind of responsibility. Personally, I wouldn't run the risk of offering you a job (for all the reasons as discussed and I have made my opinions on you very clear already) - but if others are willing to give you a chance, I say good luck to them and you should realize how lucky you are to have even one genuine job offer in this difficult economic times. Having said that, you did give up a really good job at Timetric, even though you may not be ready to acknowledge that right now.
I may just hold you to that promise for kopi as I will indeed be coming to SG sometime in the second half of 2013.
This needs to be posted.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kZg_ALxEz0
Hahahahahahahaha. Classic. Everyone needs to watch this. And here's Jerard's problem. He has a boss like Amit who wants to act like one of these ball breaking sales directors who will get the best results - and Jerard wants to treats him like some primary school teacher? Hahahahaha. Get real.
DeleteYeah, it's a movie but it's pretty close to what you get in that kind of cut-throat sales environment - there is big money to be made. But you need to be pretty tough to survive in a place like that.
There's also this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Pu_JuPILw
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deletei already know ur intentions liao, Ah Meat aka Jay Miers
Deletethe fact that you and "capitalist" has been repeatedly emphasizing something to "spark" me that made me exposed all the bullying that u have done.
well i can say that ur next course of actions will be pointless because what u did is workplace bullying. just accept it lah, dont have to keep on defending and try to cover up.
and "capitalist" just admit u are LIST lah, no need to be a humji kia .
i am not scared to file a civil case with u or the ex-coy and if u free anytime soon, i can treat u to kopi and shun bian pass u my lawyer letter
Now you've really got me confused but I suppose this is something between you and Jay Miers and will someone please explain the context of what you're referring to please?
DeleteAnd no, i do not take part in EDMW or any of the forums. I used to, yeaaaars ago, then I got into a lot of flamewars with people I disagreed with and it wore me down. I was like, why the fuck am I involved in this ridiculous flamewar with some Singaporean I am never ever going to meet? Boy there were quite a few stories I could tell you from those days but it just got to the point where i decided, that's it enough is enough. I enjoy writing but I don't need this bullshit - flamewars.
So, I started blogging, got tweeted by MrBrown and suddenly, I went viral. Currently I get anything from 5,000 to 10,000 hits a day - and when I write about a hot topic, I can get up to 100,000 hits a day. So far, I've had about 3.5 million hits on my blog and I have readers from all over the English speaking world and some very exotic countries from Angola to Mongolia to Chile to Iraq. As you're new to my blog Jerard, i suppose you don't know just how popular my blog is. Well modesty aside, what can I say? Limpeh writes a pretty darn good blog - otherwise I won't have this many readers.
So Jerard, when I have so many readers on my blog, when i have such a captive audience, why would I bother writing anything on any of the forums, knowing that it will get buried in no time given the amount of bullshit that gets posted there? I have no idea who Capitalist is - but he is wasting his time on EDMW or rather, he's casting pearls at swines there. I do not desire another flame war with anyone - and that includes you.
I wanted to voice my thoughts on the issue having worked in the same industry a decade ago and made very good money from it and I wanted to write about the issue because this was something I could talk about based on my personal experiences. And that's it, really.
weird so what's ur point in bashing me as per above or re-emphasizing what "capitalist" had said.
Deletetrying to cover up the bullying incidents that occured?
look, i have more evidence and witnesses and if this goes viral, i wonder the company will go down first or me.
And why the use of this statement if you mentioned you dont want any flamewars? "For fuck's sake Jerard, are you a fucking man or a mouse? Grow some balls for fuck's sake you pathetic fucking loser."
haha seems that u can be v good friend with Amit and Ruben.
1. In bashing you, I was, like the journalists at Wanbao, after a funny story to write about on my blog. When someone does something funny - such as the way you made a fool of yourself - I think, hahahaha, my readers would laugh at something like that. It has nothing to do with my nationality, your nationality or racism or anything like that - it boils down to the fact that you did something funny for me to write about. It's not just all about you - my blog has been going for a LONG time and i have written over 500 articles like that and I have attacked/made fun of various people who have done stupid things in my other articles - do have a read. You may find out just why my blog is so freaking popular. You're just another one of them I thought would be fodder for a good story.
Delete2. As for what Capitalist said, that was a point I was making about the EDMW forum, ie. most of them there are idiots, who deliberately post in one liners in Singlish and they are egging you on because they are xenophobic racists who have used some rather nasty racist language when referring to Amit just because he is Indian. You wanna engage with them and believe the idiots who tell you that Amit is actually on the forum and will pay you millions of dollars as a result of a law suit - hahahaha, then go ahead please, believe what you wanna hear as this is so interesting. Are these the same people who are also offering you lucrative job offers?
3. I don't take sides, I may be an Ah Beng who grew up in Ang Mo Kio - but I have spent my adult life since ORD living in various countries in Europe and the Middle East. I am but a neutral observer.
4. Cover up what happened? No one can do that, not even Amit and Ruben if you wish to raise a formal complaint - you are being paranoid in imagining some of the bullshit you've talked about on EDMW. Like hello? What are the chances of Amit or Ruben and I knowing each other? Why do you assume that I must know them because I am 'taking their side'? Did it not occur to you that I am merely someone who has stumbled upon all this on the internet and thought, what a funny story, let me write about it on my blog. At first I thought i'd use this story to talk about how to cope with difficult management/bosses in a sales environment, but I didn't expect you to be this irrational, paranoid and ridiculous - so it has turned from a serious article to one that is just downright funny as we observe you and wonder, what will he do next? Go on, keep us entertained, please. Please make this go viral and you have the attention of my readers for now.
5. Quite frankly, I insult people on my blog all the time - you're one of the first to actually come here and challenge me on my turf - good for you. Now if only you had the balls to challenge Amit when he said all those nasty things to you instead of suffering in silence, tsk tsk.
6. I totally agree with your last statement. Then again, I'm through with working in big companies and am working with a small consultancy today and it's more autonomy, less stress - oh, and more money too.
It is ironic that someone posted a clip from Glengarry Glen Ross to criticize Jerard (and therefore by default, 'defend' Amit. If you recall, in the movie, the salesmen really hated Indians and made some remarkably racist anti-Indian remarks, and of all names, the one they used to illustrate their point was 'Patel'!!
DeleteMOSS
To get on the board. Yeah. How
you goan'a get on the board sell'n
a Polack? And I'll tell you, I'll
tell you what else. You listening?
I'll tell you what else: don't ever
try to sell an Indian.
AARONOW
I'd never try to sell an Indian.
MOSS
You get those names come up, you
ever get 'em, "Patel?"
AARONOW
Mmm...
MOSS
You ever get 'em?
AARONOW
Well, I think I had one once.
MOSS
You did?
AARONOW
I...I don't know.
15.
MOSS
You had one you'd know it. Patel.
They keep coming up. I don't know.
They like to talk to salesmen.
(pause)
They're lonely, something.
(pause)
They like to feel superior, I don't
know. Never bought a fucking thing.
You're sitting down "The Rio Rancho
this, the blah blah blah," "The
Mountain View--" "Oh yes. My
brother told me that..." They got a
grapevine. Fuckin' Indians, George.
Not my cup of tea. Speaking of
which I want to tell you something:
(pause)
I never got a cup of tea with them.
You see them in the restaurants. A
supercilious race. What is this
look on their face all the time? I
don't know.
(pause)
I don't know. Their broads all
look like they just got fucked with
a dead cat, I don't know.
(pause)
I don't know. I don't like it.
Christ...
Williamson comes out of the office with leads. Roma takes
one, reads it.
ROMA
Patel? Ravidam Patel? How am I
going to make a living on thses
deadbeat wogs? Where did you get
this, from the morgue?
Look out for part 6 when I will be talking about working in sales - not strictly speaking part 6 as I will be talking more about my personal experiences and not really talking about the case any more - but yeah, you'll like it I think. Akan datang. Now I need to get some real work done.
Delete*palm to forehead*
ReplyDeletethis is worth a mention too.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Pu_JuPILw
Hello Jay Miers. I know who you are lah. Why don't dare to use real identity? Now act Atas gt ang moh nick liao very satki ah? Tell u lah, people like you have too much pride and ego that you will never repent. It's really sad. Oh ya if you free in the future, we can meet up for prata. There's one at upper Thomson quite famous one. Or meet at Kovan Mac lor. The latter is nearer right?
ReplyDeleteIf u got more evidence put here lah. Don't shy.
P.s I forgot u jiak kantang one cannot eat prata.
Will someone care to explain what is going on please?
DeleteSeems like Jerard thinks that Jay Miers is his ex-boss/colleague using a pseudonym.
DeleteI honestly think you need to seek some help. 1. I don't understand these words you are saying. 2. your English is impeccable in your earlier replies but has deteriorated since. Did you get someone to write it for you? Was it your school teacher? 3. Do you think there is a reason why this Amit guy has not responded to this? Do you not think you are total wanker? I am pretty certain that whatever evidence they have will be displayed in private, MNC's don't usually get involved with little idiots like you online.
DeleteTake the advice that real people are giving you, and grow the fuck up you little prick.
Well Jay, it's a Singaporean thing. They use Singlish in their writing in an effort to alienate those who don't understand the loanwords from Chinese/Malay - but to me, when I read it I just think, why not just write in Chinese if you really want to alienate them, unless you're too lazy to write in Chinese or you don't speak Chinese well enough to string a sentence together in Chinese? Duh.
DeleteI love Singlish and often use Singlish with my Singaporean friends & family - I also use Singlish on my blog sometimes too but it has to be done with the right effect. For example, it is great to express humour for there are some lovely expressions that don't translate easily into English. However, to use it to alienate others simply doesn't work - often it just gives the impression that the writer is uneducated and can't write in proper English = FAIL.
I am familiar with how proper HR departments would handle a case like that - but just for the sake of my readers, we would appreciate some juicy details please.
As for the 'real people' giving him advice? Jay, he has people on EDMW telling him that he will win MILLIONS if he goes to court and sues Timetric - and he is choosing to listen to what he wants to hear. And he believes that there are Singaporeans who will help him on the basis of his nationality and offer him a job ... on that basis. What can I say? You have my attention. He has my attention. I am watching this space to see what happens next, LOL.
Guys guys guys, try this.
Delete1. Go to google.com
2. Do a search for "Jerard Lee" + Singapore
3. Look at what is the number one result that Google gives you.
Dear Jerard,
ReplyDeleteI hope that you've learnt some key things that will hold you in good stead for a successful and happy life.
Develop a sense of humour, and you will never end up in this ridiculous situation again.
COWABUNGA!!!
Is Jerard Lee here even the real Jerard Lee. Look at how different the grammar is between the responses. The first 3 are well structured, all use good English and grammar. Then the following responses do not follow suit........possibly someone else stirring the pot?!?!
ReplyDeleteNo lah, if you see the way he has been writing on EDMW, he writes like that on the forum as well lah, it is the same guy lah.
DeleteSome people really need to get a life. I mostly agree with this post. Jerard does not seem to be the brightest bulb around. I really have to admire your patience in engaging him. I would have left him on ignore.
ReplyDeleteI'm not trying to help him per se, I just love a good story :)
DeleteHello LIFT,
ReplyDeleteI understand that you have good intentions in giving Jerald Lee advice. I do not expect Jerald's bosses (Amit Vithal Patel and Ruben Kempeneer) to motivate him, or "sayang-sayang" him in your words. However, I want to point out some things you have overlooked.
1. You wrote "If you exceed your sales targets, they will love you and take you out for lunch at nice restaurants. If you can't sell, then don't expect them to sayang-sayang you by giving you a nice pep talk over a cup of herbal tea."
I'm afarid you're missing the point here. There is a difference between managing / scrutinizing your staff for underperformance and abusing / bullying them. Amit and Ruben may critcise Jerald for poorer-than-expected performance, but laughing at his IC photo or depicting his family as ninja turtles have clearly crossed the line into abuse as it has nothing to do with the work at hand.
Not recognizing this difference is a bit like some Singaporeans not recognizing the difference between chasing away Rohingya refugees and chasing away economic migrants. Jerald may or may not have underperformed, but he is also a victim of abuse.
2. You wrote "In going public like that, Jerard has well and truly ruined his reputation..."
Yes, I agree that it's best for Jerald to file a complaint with the authorities privately, before considering bringing this matter to the public's attention.
It may be true that employers won't hire Jerald due to fear of getting into similar troubles, but I think the same can be said of Amit and Ruben. Not knowing when the line is crossed reveals their lack of professionalism, and it may even lend them into legal trouble in future. This is especially true in Western countries where workers can turn to their unions, as you said in your reply to Jerald (28 April 2013 12:52)
3. You claimed that you do not condone such bullying tactics, but I'm afarid you are at risk of contradicting yourself when you wrote:
"A rude sales director? What were you expecting? For crying out aloud, this is a SALES environment."
"whilst his (Amit's) tactics may not sound nice, you will encounter the same kind of management style anywhere."
You seem to give Amit (and Ruben) an excuse to abuse Jerald just because many people in the sales industry do so. It's okay if bosses in the sales industry are demanding, but abuse in any industry is unacceptable. Let me remind you what you wrote on 16 Dec 2012: "Two wrongs don't make a right". This applies to workplace bullying as much as it applies to evil governments and refugees.
Hi there and thanks for your comment. Allow me to respond please.
Delete1. Sales managers/directors are notoriously tough when it comes to discipline - there is a carrot/stick approach. There are usually very attractive prizes to motivate the team - for example, they would set a time period of a week or a month and the sales person with the highest sales figures can win really attractive prizes and these prizes can be luxury holidays, shopping vouchers worth hundreds of dollars or even cold hard cash. I've won some pretty nice prizes back in the day when I worked in sales - those are great motivations to try to outperform everyone else. And of course, there are the great commission packages - the more you sell, the bigger your cut. Like I said, there were months when I earned more in one month than my dad did in a year as a teacher in Singapore.
My point is this: the chance to make such ridiculous money is enough of a motivation for any sales person to work hard and hit those targets. People work in sales for one simple reason - to get rich quick. So Jerard was really barking up the wrong tree when he expected Amit/Ruben to motivate him to sell better - when really, the desire to make money should have been enough. If it isn't, then clearly, Jerard needs a career change and is in the wrong job.
As for laughing at his IC and calling him a ninja turtle, I never disputed the fact that it was unprofessional conduct on their part and they really should not have said those things. I don't condone it - but by the same token, I am also saying that Jerard shouldn't have been a passive victim - he should have and could have dealt with the situation when it happened, rather than suffer in silence.
2. I don't think the kind of things that Jerard has been saying on these forums helps his case at all - if anything, he is showing that he is very emotional and a lot of these reactions are knee-jerk. Such as when he threatened Amit with jail - like come on, get real lah. The best case scenario is that he could get some kind of financial settlement from Timetric over the case, but for Amit to be jailed? You've gotta jail more than half the SAF and track down every NS man who has said/done worse things than call a recruit a ninja turtle. Let's not make mountains out of molehills here, especially when you are uncertain if the MOM will take your side (they've not done anything so far to help Jerard).
As for Amit & Ruben - that's true but don't forget, Amit is Indian and Ruben is Belgian. They can both easily move out of Singapore at the drop of the hat, go to another country and start anew. Think about just how many Amit Patels there must be in a place like India, Amit is a fairly common first name and Patel is one of the most common Indian surnames. It's like an Englishman with a name like John Smith. Whereas Jerard is stuck in Singapore with a wife and kid - where is he going to go to start anew? Even if you may feel sorry for him, ask yourself this - would you dare to give him a job?
3. It's true, I do not condone the way sales directors behave, but I acknowledge that it happens a lot - I don't see any contradiction in this. It's like saying, I do not condone parents who smack their kids as a form of punishment, but I acknowledge that it happens more often than we think. I am merely comparing and contrasting what I believe to what I observe. I can't control what Amit/Ruben do, and they do not need me to give them an excuse to do what they do - their actions speak for themselves. I am just saying, if you want to work in sales and earn big money, you must be prepared to deal with the job hazards that come with the territory.
The easiest solution is this: if you don't like the way people behave in this industry, go work else where rather than try to single handedly change the face of sales people.
Hello Lift,
ReplyDeleteI generally agree with your post, and I think people have a lot to learn about standing up for oneself. From the way you write, you really look down on young, inexperienced blood don't you? Your article will elicit lots of emotions from readers and get you tons of views for sure.
Jin
Hi Jin, yeah I don't suffer fools gladly and that's why I am judging Jerard harshly but I actually really enjoy reading his posts on those forums now for he is slowly descending into madness, LOL. He has all these conspiracy theories in his head now - first he thought I was friends with Amit & Ruben (like hello, we don't even live in the same continent!!) and now he thinks I have something to do with Timetric (nope, i've never heard of them till I stumbled upon this case).
DeleteWhat is clear is that my readers are interested in his case and it's generated plenty of traffic to my blog.
PS. Look out for part 2, am writing it now.
DeleteMaybe you should tone down a little. I'm sure he's learning, so cut him some slack. :)
DeleteNot by the looks of things - he's turning up the heat and making far more threats online in those forums.
DeleteI would like to thank Jerard, if not for him I would not have been directed to LIFT's blog which is actually pretty awesome!
ReplyDeleteThat said being in multiple sales roles in the financial industry one would have expected him to have developed a damn thick skin already...Alamak at worst just tong and look for another job at the same time lah. Worst thing to do ever is to quit without a job (esp when being the sole breadwinner).
Hi PD, welcome to Limpeh's blog.
DeleteI'm glad you like my blog.
Working in sales within the financial services industry can be extremely lucrative - that is why people want to do such jobs, to get rich quick. It is a fallacy to imagine that this kind of nasty bosses don't exist elsewhere in Singapore amongst other Singaporeans, so I think trying to associate this with the FT issue is a complete red herring.
Let's see if any of the people on those forums will actually offer Jerard any real help in terms of MONEY to help with his legal bills - talk is cheap.
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ReplyDeleteWow - Amit thanks for this.
DeleteListen, I am going out tonight and have to get out of here in 5 mins but I will write more later tonight when I get back. If you read part 2 of my post on this case, you will see how much scorn I pour on the kind of interaction that goes on in those Singaporean forums.
I have one question though - Jerard has closed that thread on EDMW and it has disappeared (though Google keeps a cache of all those nasty racist comments about you - esp by this character Dun Tang who is especially racist - so with a bit of technological know-how, you should have no trouble retrieving it - let me know if you need help). Why did Jerard close this thread - he claims that Timetric has contacted him to settle this out of court, are they really giving in to him when he doesn't have a strong case (especially after having read your side of the story). What is going on?
I have spoken to other Singaporeans who know far more about employment law in Singapore who told me that Jerard's case is flimsy at best and he is a fantasist who comes up with conspiracy theories - like he is convinced we're best buddies just because I am not on his side, LOL. I can only cringe when I think of what kind of impression you must have of Singaporeans after this incident.
Gotta get outta here now, thanks again Amit.
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DeletePS. My suspicion is that Jerard's lawyer (if he is any good) told him to stop all this nonsense on the forums because Jerard is simply mouthing off non-stop and is heading for a libel case with Timetric like a run away train - but then again, like I said, google archives everything and this content does leave a digital footprint that can easily be retrieved thanks to the power of technology, whoopee.
DeleteOK I gotta dash - I will email you when I get home later tonight. Thanks Amit.
DeleteLooks like Jerard bailed out.
Deletehttp://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/thread-i-have-been-bullied-ft-gone-4195680-2.html
This is what he wrote in his own words.
"Lose Liao this case. And another sinkie life destroyed.
The purpose of my thread was not to for promote xenophobic Singaporeans but mainly how to deal with workplace bullying because in Singapore, there is nothing much we can do about it. That's the sad truth"
As for you Limpeh, thank you for taking the time to do a 5-part write up on this issue. You had really captured my interest in the past few days.
I also like your blog on Margaret Thatcher and LKY and I agree on most of your assessment of them.
Cheers!
Thanks, I love having readers like you :)
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