Monday 3 July 2017

How does one define class identity in 2017?

Hello again. I love my readers because I can always rely on them to ask good questions - credit to my loyal reader Choaniki for the question that made me think hard about my answer, then I realized I couldn't do it justice in my reply and decided to do a full length post. In his question, Choaniki pointed out that because my parents (retired primary school teachers) didn't live in a HDB flat they were clearly not working class. In fact, on that front, my parents are doing very well: not only did they manage to buy a substantially large terraced house years ago, they also have a lovely buy-to-let condominium with stunning facilities. (Think about the kind of inheritance my nephew is going to get.) So yeah, regardless of the fact that they do have a rather working class mentality and act pretty much like working class folks, their personal net worth is anything but working class. This is hardly uncommon - in the UK, there are plenty working class folks who have managed to make a lot of money but still remain staunchly working class in their behaviour and mindset.
How do you define your class identity?

And then on the other end of the spectrum, there is a brilliant saying in Chinese to describe the situation: 打肿脸充胖子 (dǎ zhǒng liǎn chōng pàng zī). We're talking about younger adults in their 20s, maybe 30s who are seemingly well educated but are struggling to get well-paid jobs. However, despite not earning much, they aspire to have a glamorous lifestyle: they want to wear the nicest designer clothes, hang out in fashionable bars, dine in the best gourmet restaurants, drive expensive cars, go on exotic holidays: they want to be seen to be living a lifestyle akin to famous celebrities and that is the image they portray on social media. Certainly, one could argue that such young people have a middle class mindset (whilst others would describe their mindset as 'aspirational') despite the fact many of them are not just poor, but are obtaining all these luxury items on credit, thus plunging them further and further into debt. They want to appear to be middle class whilst their bank balance tells a different story. So clearly, there doesn't seem to be a direct correlation between one's class identity and one's bank balance, the picture is indeed a lot more complex than that and there are many other factors we need to consider. Let's look at some interesting case studies in this context.

So we can look at one's bank balance (or more accurately, the summary of one's total assets, otherwise known as one's personal net worth) or one's lifestyle - but there's also one more aspect of social class: the social aspect, more specifically, whom your friends are. If a rich Chinese family sends their children to be educated in the UK, would they have the social skills to be able to fit in and be accepted by the upper class in the UK given their wealth? It isn't a straight forward process - once again, this is down to one's social skills rather than one's bank balance; however, the more money you have, the more social skills you can develop. I have a friend who was an Oxford graduate and he had a lucrative part time job whilst at Oxford to teach these rich Chinese kids the finer manners of British society, so they will not do embarrassing things like slurp their soup whilst having dinner or talk too loudly whilst having polite conversation. This is a very British obsession with manners and decorum - we're far more subtle about using such methods to establish someone's social class. We are observant and use little details like the buttons on one's shirt/jacket to the way you pronounce certain words to your table manners to establish your social class: then based on that, the upper/middle class person would be able to ascertain, "are you one of us or are you an imposter-wannabe of the 打肿脸充胖子 variety?"
Class identity isn't solely defined by wealth.

Let me give you an example from a few days ago when I was at the Henley Regatta - I was invited there by a client who had booked a marquee at the Temple Island Enclosure. Within this enclosure, there are several marquees, each booked by a different company and whilst we had our separate dining areas, we were free to mingle around and be social with people who were in the enclosure. There was this man whom I got talking to in the enclosure - I don't know which company he was working for or whom he was invited by, but he was talking about going to Greece on holiday and I joined in the conversation as I had worked in Greece The conversation was fairly bland and polite but it was still early in the day, around 12 noon and people were simply making small talk. I ran into him later in the afternoon around 6 pm and by then, he had had a lot to drink (open bar - free alcohol all day) and was clearly drunk. He wasn't misbehaving as such, but any decorum was gone - I remember him talking and laughing very loudly and that was when I thought, right - I don't want to be anywhere near you. In sharp contrast, my rather posh colleague whom I went to the event with did have plenty to drink as well - but even when he was somewhat intoxicated, the alcohol seemed to have no impact on his impeccable manners. I don't doubt that the drunk man heading to Greece on holiday was rich (he wouldn't have been invited to the event otherwise), but such was the difference being accept and rejected by people of a certain social class.
Oh the same thing can go the other way as well - in one of my earliest posts on my blog, I recounted in great detail an incident when I had caused offence by speaking in a very posh manner to a very working class person. It is not even something I did consciously, it is just that when I am nervous (such as when speaking to a stranger), I overcompensate when it comes to my accent. This is mostly because I don't want the stranger to think that English isn't my first language just because I am not white - but in this case, I had gone way too far and he took offence to the way I spoke. He thought I had come across as somewhat condescending when really, I just wanted to sound 'proper'. I suppose I was way too self-conscious about the way I came across that I didn't pause for a moment to think about how my accent would have been received by the other party - in fact, I am somewhat disappointed that I didn't handle that incident a bit better since I had gone through similar circumstances when I was serving NS and had to deal with many über-working class guys (aka 'Hokkien pengs') then. This was no different and I had clearly misjudged the other party for I had unintentionally caused a lot of offence. Oh don't get me wrong - I clearly thought that I was his socially his superior, I just didn't mean to rub it in his face like that and upset him. It wasn't my intention, I don't round looking for a fight by upsetting people like that.

So Choaniki had been asking me how we define one's social class apart from your wealth and your mindset? Well, I say the third important aspect is your friends - if I were to go through phone and see the last 50 people you spoke to or texted (yes you can include Facebook Messenger, Whatsapp, Snapchat and Skype as well), what are their social classes? What kind of jobs do they do? You see, aspiration can only get you so far - you can desire to identify yourself as middle class, but are you socially accepted by whom you identify with? If you aren't, then you have failed the social test: you can't certify yourself as 'middle-class' or 'upper-class' if you are not accepted by the cohort you wish to be a part of. Likewise, the late Bob Crow - a former union leader - had angered a lot of his working class supporters: in 2014, whilst his union members were in the middle of a strike, he jetted of to Brazil on a luxury holiday - leaving many of his union members questioning whether he was actually the right man to lead a union for working class transport workers. Sure he may claim to be working class, but he had abandoned his cause for a luxury holiday that practically all of his union members would never ever be able to afford on their meager salaries. Oh well, as if in an act of poetic justice, he died just a month after that amazing holiday in Brazil - but that meant we never really got to see if he was ever going to be rejected by the working class folks he claimed to have represented. So Choaniki, what kind of jobs do your friends do?
Who are your friends, where do you 'belong'?

Let me share a story that my friend Fred told me - Fred is a golf coach, most of the time he works with the spoilt brat kids of the mega-rich who would like their children to play golf too, but he has one client who is an adult, let's call him Mr Bus. Mr Bus used to be a bus driver but one day, he won the lottery, winning a massive fortune and became a multi-millionaire overnight. He realized he never had to drive a bus in his life ever again, so he retired and decided to try to do all the fun things he could never afford to do when he was a bus driver, such as play golf. He bought himself a membership at an exclusive golf resort, invested in the most expensive set of golf clubs and engaged the services of coach Fred to get him started in golf. After a few months of lessons, Mr Bus thought he was good enough to challenge some of the regulars at the golf resort - but each time he made polite conversation to try to engage the regulars there, the conversation went nowhere. It was not like anyone was hostile or rude to him, but the regulars there knew he was a former bus driver who won the lottery. They would often congratulate him for winning the lottery, at first Mr Bus thought they were just making small talk - but soon it felt as if they did it just to remind him how he stumbled upon this massive windfall purely by chance. Each time Mr Bus challenged them to a game, they would politely make their excuses and it wasn't long before he realized that nobody wanted to play golf with him there even if nobody specifically said, "you're not one of us".

Mr Bus did enjoy the game of golf, so he kept on engaging the services of coach Fred who ended up playing with him, Fred was the only person who would play with Mr Bus there. I suppose Mr Bus knew the score, he was never ever going to fit in at the golf club no matter how he tried to dress just like the others or impress the others with the most expensive set of golf clubs used by Tiger Woods. As for my friend Fred, he didn't have an axe to grind with Mr Bus, "oh he treated me with respect, unlike some of the other nasty kids of the other clients I have had to teach. He would tip me generously, he would buy me lunch at the club house and I always have fun chatting with him when we play together. He is a very nice guy and undoubtedly my favourite client but he's working class and even if he spent the next three decades playing golf there, I don't think any of the regulars will ever accept him as one of them, he's always going to be the bus driver who won the lottery. It doesn't matter how rich he is, I am guessing that he may be even richer than some of the regulars there. You just don't find working class people playing golf there. It is quite unforgiving but well that's just the way it is."
Why does this matter? In the case of Mr Bus, he realized that no amount of wealth can get him the kind of acceptance he was seeking. This matters to you only if you are trying to fit in and be accepted by a certain community. In my case, because I am working in sales within financial services, it is very important for me as I often need to build business relationships with people from the middle/upper classes of British society. So I would never get drunk and misbehave when an important client invites me to an event - there would be unthinkable consequences if I ever did something like that.  But in the case of my parents, well not only are they retired, they are financially comfortable - they have neither the need nor incentive to do anything to 'fit in' or even work anymore, so basically they can do what the hell they like and not worry about the consequences. This does of course, create a separate category for those who do not crave acceptance by either side of the social class divide: I call them the weird loners. It is hard to come up with a neutral phrase to describe them without sounding as if I am passing judgement on their choice to eschew any kind of belonging to a particular social class. In rejecting any kind of class identity, they would probably label themselves as rebels, but I see them as loners. Do we need to invent some new categories to try to define these individuals outside the system?

A good example of this would be Navinder Singh Sarao, otherwise known as the flash crash trader. Despite once having made as much as £40 million in 2009 (approximately S$80 million then), he was a loner who still lived at home with his parents, working from the bedroom of his parents house. After he made that much money, did he spend his millions on champagne, fast cars, loose women or at least buying his parents a bigger house? No, he seemed oblivious to the fact that he was ridiculously rich and wore an inexpensive track suit everyday. He would cycle around and sometimes borrow his father's car, despite the fact that he could have bought any car in the world he wanted. You get the idea - Sarao was undoubtedly a genius who was brilliant at making money but completely lacked any kind of social skills and had often been compared to the character 'Rain Man' from the movie of the same title. Sarao was eventually arrested and extradited to the US for his illegal trading activities where he has pleaded guilty and is awaiting sentencing. So if you were to use Sarao as a case study: yes by virtue of his wealth (an estimated £27 million of his wealth is still unaccounted for), then he's richer than most middle and upper class people. But he never once tried to use his wealth to lead a more comfortable middle class lifestyle (or even spend that some of that money making his poor elderly parents more comfortable - his mother still worked despite the fact that he made vast sums of money) and it became clear that he was a loner who had virtually no friends (nor was he ever interested in making any). So is Sarao just a rich working class person? Or are such labels like working or middle class just meaningless when it comes to special cases like Sarao?
In any case, given the complexity of our modern society, it seems overly simplistic to imagine that three categories: working class, middle class and upper class would suffice. The BBC had come up with a class calculator and if you have not tried it before, give it a go! I like this class calculator for several reasons, it does ignore the concept of "only those with inherited wealth can truly be considered upper class" - no, this class calculator doesn't care how you acquired your wealth as long as you have the money. It also looks at other aspects of your social and cultural life in order to determine what your class is. It then offers you a possibility of seven different social classes which reflect the realities in modern Britain. Oh and yes, I came out as an 'elite' of course, given the combination of my wealth and social/cultural patterns. Although this test does have its limits - it doesn't quite know what to do with people like my parents who do have money but do not lead a middle class lifestyle, there simply isn't a category of 'rich proles' that would adequately describe them.

And then, there's my former colleague Seth (not his real name) - his family are/were upper class, he was sent to Eton when he was young and had a very privileged upbringing. His father had been running the family business but in the mid 1990s, he made a few terrible mistakes and the business failed, forcing them to sell off almost everything they had to pay their debts as a result. To make matters far worse, his father was so stressed out dealing with all that, the old man had a heart attack and died. Seth was posh but not that intelligent - just because his parents bought him the best education money could buy didn't mean that he was intelligent, even the best teachers in the world couldn't get him into a good university. He wasn't stupid, he just wasn't that brilliant either - he was but average with a degree from a university that sat in the middle of the league tables. He got into sales as he oozed upper class charms - but dig a little bit deeper, scrape away the veneer of his good looks, posh accent and fine manners and you'll realize that as he is supporting two children and an elderly mother (who unfortunately has been quite ill), he was struggling to make ends meet. There is always the assumption that posh, upper class people have access to a bottomless pit of inherited family money - but in the case of Seth, through no fault of his own, he found himself in a difficult situation financially despite being upper class. He is the complete opposite of my parents: my parents are working class but rich, Seth is indeed upper class by virtue of his parents but so poor today he is in debt. So is Seth still upper class or not - or are such labels totally inadequate to represent his unique (and unfortunate) situation? Or do we need to come up with a new sub-category for Seth then?
Seth was undoubtedly posh but very poor.

In any case, do all upper class people have access to a bottomless pit of money? Clearly not - yes they will have some inheritance, but the amount of money they can access varies from family to family. Sometimes this wealth is tied up in land and property, so they may look rich on paper but freeing up that money would mean liquidating the assets and most rich families are more interested in protecting their estate and legacy, rather than simply spending the money. The property could be co-owned by several people in the family and trying to sell it off could be a complex decision. The real advantage they have however, is firstly being able to afford the best education money can buy for their children and even if they have mediocre results, their family connections will enable them to get good jobs anyway - nepotism runs deep in such circles, that is the true advantage they possess. Once they have secured well paid jobs, that's when they are truly financially independent, rather than simply spending their inheritance. You can't stay rich if you are constantly depleting your reserves of wealth without topping it up. Contrast this to my nephew who currently is sitting on a sizable inheritance that includes three properties in Singapore (two amazing condos and a large terraced house) - he may not be posh or upper class, but our situation is such that he is actually better off financially than some upper class people in the UK (such as my friend Seth). My nephew could let out two of the properties and live in one, then as a landlord, he probably never needs to work a day in his life. (I'm presuming that he is going to get everything from my sisters and parents.)

Are there any conclusions that I have arrived at, after having explored all these different angles? The bottom line is that class identity is a very complex issue and when people get shoved in one box with a certain label, it could be a case of squeezing a square peg into a round hole. But such is the complexity of the modern world: there are working class people who have managed to make their fortunes and upper class people whom like Seth's family, have found themselves really struggling to make ends meet. Ultimately, I think the good news is that we live in an age where social mobility is possible in a way that wasn't possible for our parents or our grandparents. And for those who say, "oh if you don't have inherited wealth, you'll never be upper class", I think you're missing the point. The number of upper class aristocrats who live in castles and palaces today whilst turning their noses up at anyone who isn't royalty or nobility is tiny: the amount of wealth and influence they have in the world today has dwindled when you compare them to modern day media-royalty like Selena Gomez, Katy Perry, Ariana Grande, Cristiano Ronaldo, David Beckham and Beyonce. What social class label do you use to define someone like Selena Gomez, who was born to a teenage mother and had a really difficult childhood due to their poverty? Today she has far more money and influence in the world than some old rich British aristocrat or minor royalty who may be a third cousin to the Queen but lives in relative obscurity? What is the point of being from a certain privileged social class, if it isn't about money and power at the end of the day? The modern world is changing fast because of the internet and I can't help but feel sometimes that concepts of social class are something that has been constructed from another era, it badly needs updating to remain relevant in this day and age.
So that's it from me on this topic. What do you think? How would you define your class identity in this modern age? Is it all about money now - or do we get to define our own class identity by picking our friends and activities to suit the social class we wish to identify with? What about those who eschew the concept of social class altogether and refuse to identify with any one group - do we still try to define them based on criteria or do we give up trying to define them at all? And finally, how do we evolve our concept of social class to take into concept media royalty like Selena Gomez who richer and wields far more influence than some minor royalty in the UK? Do leave a comment below, many thanks for reading.

28 comments:

  1. According to the BBC survey my class is emerging service class. In my social network I don't know many working class people but mainly upper middle class people like CEOs, directors, road warriors and
    people like you.

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    1. Well, like I said, there are limits to the BBC model but at least it is an attempt to use a test to create 7 new categories that to some extent, reflect the modern world. I had a search online but no one else has tried to do anything vaguely similar of the same quality.

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    2. And it's not like I have anything against socializing with working class people, class per se isn't a criteria I use to choose my friends. If I have something in common with you, then yeah I'd have a reason to wanna hang out with you. So as you know, I like gymnastics and still train: so if you enjoy that sport too, then we'll have something in common and we can train together, it's a social experience and I make friends with other gymnasts regardless of their social background, culture, nationality etc.

      Except that my gymnastics club is one of the most expensive ones in the country and they charge adults about 3 times more than the cheapest alternative in London , so it tends to attract wealthier adults who wanna do the sport and poor people tend to find £15 a session rather expensive. Whereas after last training, two of the gymnasts went on a date to a restaurant where a starter can easily cost £15. They gave me a lift home in their car which is clearly very expensive. You get the idea, even though I am not specifically going there to meet other rich people (think about Mr Bus at the golf club), I somehow end up doing so at gymnastics.

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    3. The nature of my work is such that I almost never come into contact with working class people. My hobbies are such that I usually encounter middle class and above since it mostly quite academic and the underclassed are usually only interested in drinking and boobs.

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    4. OK maybe the gymnastics is a bad example - let me try something totally different. I speak Welsh and it's a rare language spoken by about half a million people but I'll take those statistics with a pinch of salt. That includes people who have had some lessons in Welsh if they were ever in a Welsh school and the true number who speak it fluently is probably somewhere at the 250,000 to 330,000 mark. We're a pretty rare breed, considering that the majority of Welsh people (about 75%) speak NO WELSH whatsoever, we're talking about Welsh people, with Welsh ancestry, who were born and bred in Wales being unable to speak their own language (obviously they are English speakers).

      So I have a small cluster of Welsh speaking friends in London and what binds us together is the desire to speak Welsh (and not English) when it each other's company. And in that group, there is a mix of working class + middle class people who just happen to be Welsh-speaking people working in London. I have nothing against working class people at all given that my own family background is very working class and if I have something in common with someone (say a shared love of the Welsh language or gymnastics), then I don't mind/care about their class identity.

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  2. A word came to mind: "intelligentsia"
    In today's major cities at least, people with
    technical expertise and/or the social influence to shape society are perceived to have elite status.
    Think of a wealthy banker, skilled with numbers and people, and enjoys art, sports and travels to experience the richness of foreign cultures.

    A person with poor social skills and/or low value skills will then rank amongst the underclass or even the outcast, untouchables of society. Think of your Singaporean cleaner, whose job is unskilled, can't even hold a proper conversation - mostly u end up listening to them bitch & moan; does nothing when hes not working and has trouble figuring out what bus to take him from Loyang to Jurong.

    That's my 2 cents.

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    1. And within that context, I particularly admire people like Selena Gomez who have made it in spite of the odds having been stacked against her.

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    2. Though I wonder whether Selena Gomez would have the same problems as the bus driver you mentioned. That'd be a rather interesting story to hear. Granted American society may not be as stratified as British society but I'm betting there'd be conversations she would have problems with due to her background.

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    3. Well it's not so clear cut.

      When I was back in Singapore I had some idiot Caucasian banker (Could tell from his outfit and the crowd around my area) banging at my apartment's door because he was stone drunk and didn't know where his apartment was. I definitely wouldn't consider him intelligentsia. He probably was ridiculously wealthy but cultured he was not. I like what Chris Tucker said about the difference between being rich and being wealthy , there are plenty of rich bankers out there but wealthy they are not there's a rather subtle difference.


      It's not so plain what poor social skills is sometimes. Most of us on the blog would be considered having poor social skills if we ever tried to mingle with upper class British society simply because we just don't have enough common upbringing and experience to communicate on a common tone or like Limpeh being in a profession that allows access along with the observational skills to learn it on the go.


      An example is a startup I was in hired this university dean as our company's CEO. Now, this man has no experience whatsoever in my industry and he made decisions that made no sense or ignored suggestions made by my bosses who had spent decades in the industry. We never understood why the man was hired to be the CEO until we had to entertain investors touring our company. The man knew how to talk to multi millionaires and billionaires, in other words he knew how to talk rich.

      My direct bosses knew their stuff but they struggled to get funding simply because they were working class, they couldn't get access to the people who had the money to invest because they were never in the same social class.

      I'm not disputing your point, just bringing up the more subtle shades in between.

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    4. People like her are a great inspiration, man. Living proof that if u got vision and courage, u can get almost anything u want.

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    5. Hi Bay,

      I totally get what you mean when you wrote, "he knew how to talk rich" - it's another language altogether, engaging these people on their wavelength.

      On that point, I'll make two observations, if I may.

      1. It's not rocket science actually. No I didn't have a privileged upbringing - I grew up in Ang Mo Kio for crying out aloud and my dad doesn't even speak English! But I am extremely observant person, I pay great attention to detail when it comes to human interaction. So many people are so full of themselves they focus their energies on themselves rather than the other party during social interactions: well I am the complete opposite. I make a concerted effort to always focus on the other person. Sometimes I think it is a cultural thing: like in Japanese, you rarely use the word 'watashiwa' (me/I) in a sentence unless you're deliberately trying to emphasize the answer, like, "Who? Me? Are you kidding? I wasn't the one who upset the boss this morning?!" Same thing occurs in Spanish but in English and indeed Chinese, we do not hesitate to use me/I/我 and I feel it can lead to people being more self-centred: something I actively avoid.

      2. I have met people who know how to 'talk rich' - and once again, I use my powers of observation to study in great detail what they do, how they do it and then mimic them. IMHO, a lot of the time, people refuse to even consider learning from others because they are way too proud - take the issue of one's accent for example. Many Singaporeans lash out the moment anyone dares to suggest there's anything wrong with their accent. It's not that they're incapable of altering their accents to suit the occasion, but rather they are way too defensive when it comes to the issue. I have no qualms whatsoever about learning from those who are better than me. I am humble, I want to learn.

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  3. LIFT, here is my proposition for you: social mobility is higher in Singapore than UK. Do you agree, disagree?

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    1. Short answer is YES. Social mobility is far, far higher in Singapore than the UK. Have to dash for my next meeting in 5 mins so no time to write longer version, maybe later.

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    2. Alex u mean even if a working class Brit becomes fabulously rich he would still fail to be seen as elite?

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    3. Alamak, I still owe you an answer from yesterday. No, you misunderstood. That's not at all what I meant. I'm a working class immigrant from AMK and I am seen as an elite today because I have the social skills to navigate my way around a new society and learn how to fit in with the people I want to identify with. In the case of Mr Bus (who won the lottery), he has the money but doesn't have the social skills. Can you see where the missing component is? Social skills are so vital in a class-based society.

      But I'll get to you later on social mobility. Sorry. Been so busy.

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    4. OK got my bowl of pasta with me at my desk: here's the wonderful thing about Singaporean society, it is somewhat misguided but Singaporeans truly believe that as long as you study hard, you will be rewarded with a good job, money and success. Now, we all know that isn't true - the real situation isn't that simple in the real world, but based on this rather naive belief, so many Singaporeans from working class, deprived backgrounds have worked their butts off truly believing that they have a real shot in a brighter future.

      Contrast that to the situation in the UK, whereby many believe that their destinies are determined by their social class - so they do not have the kind of confidence that young Singaporeans have. I suppose it is a lack of faith in the system which leads them to have far less confidence in their chances in life to make it in spite of the odds.

      Having that self-confidence is so vital to any young person trying their best to make it to a good university, get that job they want, improve their lot in life: even if it is based on a misunderstanding or misplaced trust in their system, there's no denying that young Singaporeans are far more confident than their British counterparts as a result.

      Does that make sense?

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    5. Here's my analogy to help illustrate the situation: imagine there's a big forest fire and the animals in the forest have two choices. They can either try to flee or give up and wait to be burnt to death. Whether or not you decide to flee depends on whether you're convinced you have a good chance of making it out of the fire alive. You would only give up if you're convinced there's no way you're going to succeed in escaping.

      It sounds like a no brainer of course: even if your chances of making it out of the forest fire alive is slim, what have you got to lose by trying to flee?

      But such is the situation in the UK, many people who have the odds stacked against them socially and they effectively give up - whereas in Singapore, there is this... blind optimism, call it a faith in the system if you like - but it makes the animals try to flee out of the forest fire even when they know the odds are equally stacked against them.

      Such is hope - it doesn't matter what it is based on or where you get it from, but it is one helluva motivation and it makes a huge difference in life.

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    6. What about welfare? Dose it affect a certain number of people who feel they would be better off doing nothing and living off welfare since no matter how hard they work they would still remain poor? However there does exist a certain amount of underclassed in Singapore who remain really poor no matter how hard they work at odd jobs and collecting cardboard boxes.

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    7. Hmmmm. There is an element of that - there are ways to increase the amount of money you're entitled to, for example, a single mother gets far more than a single woman with no kids. So the system almost encourages such women to have babies and then they're never gonna work once they get on that cycle. I think the money is given out wrongly - education and training should be subsidized to give these people the skills to access better jobs and have a better future, so they will have the confidence to say YES I can get a great job, have a wonderful career and have a great life rather than just barely surviving from one welfare pay out to the next. May I clarify that after the austerity cuts have been implemented, those on welfare are barely getting by - they have enough to eat, have a roof over their heads but it's a grim existence.

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    8. @ Alex, ah that clears things up nicely. Real Shame that young brits lack of determination.
      And thanks for putting this myth of a welfare paradise to bed.

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    9. L Chen, may I clarify please that it is a certain type of young Brits (ie. working class, underclass) who lack determination. The rich ones from wealthy families have enjoyed the benefits of privilege and they have plenty of determination & confidence in their futures.

      It is all about social class - this is Britain.

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    10. Ok i see what u mean. I had a conversation with a working class Brit (he was managing a deli owned by a rich Singaporean banker) - absolutely depressing this fellow was. Contrast that to British oxford grads doing post grad research at Duke-NUS.. who speak as if anything is possible.

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    11. Seems like Singapore is far more similar to America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfgSEwjAeno long video but worth it and hey that's John Oliver, I love him so much. But such is the class system for you - people don't talk about it much but it is the elephant in the room.

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  4. Iron rice bowl? I prefer my purple rice bowl https://emacs.li/system/media_attachments/files/000/038/932/original/dab66ddc5e3edb5b.jpeg?1499790785

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  5. Interesting follow up LIFT. Thank you.

    From my experience you need both - the money to keep up with the Osbrone-Camerons (or pretence depending on your PoV) and the decorum.

    The mythical Bus driver could have achieved his 'class' if he just switches golf club - perhaps to a more upmarket one where people assume the new member is 'somebody' and behaves accordingly. You need money because you will be expected to 'do your part' in social outings or on worthy causes. He could stay too if he is prepared to spend enough to 'buy' his way in - of course simple lunches won't do.

    Your friend Seth would have hard time in the circle if he is struggling financially. What would he be expected to talk about when the lady and gentleman on the table talks about £40k pa Eton school fees and the exotic holidays they just returned from? He can only keep it to 'polite' conversation for so long.

    Why are you so attracted to upper class social practises though? People will buy your bonds if the returns are right, accents only play a small part.

    Good luck with your adventure.

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    1. SPV some points for you if I may.

      1. The point about Mr Bus is that he lacked the social skills, the decorum to fit in. He was a multi-millionaire but no amount of money could buy him the kind of respectability to fit in within those circles at the golf club. It wasn't that he was short of cash (quite the opposite - he had so much he didn't know what to do with it) but he just didn't have the social skills and the people at the golf club, well - I think you're missing the point that it goes beyond having money, it's about social class at the end of the day and a bus driver who has won the lottery isn't even the same as say, a working class man who has made a fortune by actually being good at something.

      2. Seth is of the upper crust, but he didn't have a rich uncle who would gladly give him a million or two just because he's down on his luck. Does he have rich family relations and connections? Of course. Are they willing to give him money? No. It's tough for Seth as he doesn't have access to wealth once his father's family business went under.

      3. You're wrong about the bonds: there is a very competitive market out there, competing for investments from rich people. Heck, if it's all about good returns, then they can sack the entire sales department and just keep a secretary or two to do the admin as people queue up to invest with us. But that's not how the real world works - you're extremely naive to believe that it actually works like that, so let me give you another example that's a bit more easy to relate to: luxury cars.

      A BMW is an extremely well made, expensive, luxury car - but would they simply put all the info of their cars on their website and say, "well people will only buy our cars if they are well-made, accents only play a small part - so let's not bother with marketing the cars or bother hiring any sales staff." Hell no. BMW have some of the world's most innovative and eye-catching marketing campaign, they spend millions on branding and have you ever stepped into a BMW showroom? The salesmen are very good at what they do - because every single company trying to sell you a luxury car worth a small fortune is making such a concerted effort on their sales campaign and if you're dumb/naive/stupid enough not to do the same, then your competitors will hoover up all the business.

      I have no idea who you are - but what you said about the bus driver was painfully naive and what you said about "people will buy your bonds if the returns are right", holy shit - have you ever worked a day in your life? What are you, some 18 year old student with Corbyn tattooed on your buttcheeks with socialist ideals? You have no freaking clue what the hell you're talking about - you're naive and stupid, yet you waltz in here talking as if you know it all.

      Ha!

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    2. Heem LIFT,

      I recognise that 'talking' over the internet without the usual expressions can sometimes lead to misunderstanding.

      I am sorry if I misread your views about Mr Bus but the conclusions were similar albeit that we came from different angles. He needs both the money and mannerism.

      I take your point that the types of bond that you sell - i.e. to HNWI as opposed to institutions or retail require you to connect with them. I asked out of curiosity and I am sorry if I offended you.

      As for your last paragraph, I suppose it is a little uncalled for?

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    3. 2 points for you:

      1. Right, Mr Bus needs both money and not so much mannerisms per se, but social skills to fit in. Is it possible? Of course it is: but it is contingent on him developing the right social skills in order to do so, but until he figures it out, he cannot fit in. It's a bit like saying, can I lose 10 kgs? Any personal trainer would say of course you can! A combination of calorie controlled diet + daily exercise routine = you can easily lose 10 kgs. Just because it is theoretically possible doesn't mean it is easily achieved - the individual still has to do change his diet and do the daily exercises if the goal is to be achieved. Just because the goal is possible to achieve doesn't mean that everyone will automatically achieve it. That's why some people are still overweight and why Mr Bus has not been able to fit in with the crowd.

      2. It is a crowded market out there for investors - how do you decide between product A and product B? Sure if you are an analyst who is an expert when it comes to doing your own compliance and due diligence, then you're able to decide which product is superior. But even then, my company's product may be up against an equally attractive product: what then? That's when sales & marketing are important, especially when you're competing against so many rival brands out there doing what we do. This is no different from the car industry or the fashion industry, where consumers with money have a lot of choice and people are often choose one brand over another for a really small reason like, "they're both good, but I get better service at this place, the sales team there looks like they give really good after sales support."

      Ironically, I don't deal with HNWIs at all - I deal with intermediaries who deal with HNWIs, so I am one removed from HNWIs in the supply chain and these intermediaries (private bankers, wealth management experts, family offices, portfolio managers etc) have so many different kinds of products to choose from when investing on behalf of their clients.

      But hey, it's not just my job, or my industry: if people were completely rational and able to select the best product purely based on merit, then sales & marketing people would be made redundant. But they are not! People are highly emotional and irrational even when making investment decisions and a lot of it comes down to building relationships in the business world based on whom you feel comfortable doing business with: I rely a lot on my existing contacts opening doors for me, so I can even get a foot in the door to pitch the private banker or the family office to convince them to consider our products. Without these introductions from people within the industry, they wouldn't even take my calls or read an email I send.

      As for the last paragraph, sure I was being deliberately rude to you: but I don't apologize for it. You have made so many assumptions about my industry when you're clearly not from my industry - instead of phrasing it as a question to engage me, you waltz in here and make statements instead as if you know what you're talking about when clearly, you haven't got a clue. Let this be a lesson. You can make the same point in a less offensive manner so you wouldn't come across as the worst kind of idiot: the idiot who is blissfully oblivious to the fact that he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

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