Tuesday 10 January 2017

Why do people want to have children?

In a recent post, I talked about a few former classmates of mine who were under a lot of pressure to get married and have children and it generated a huge discussion. In today's post, I will talk about some of the most common reasons people have children and offer my reaction to these reasons. After all, I am 40 and many of my peers do indeed have children: some for the right reasons, some for reasons I will never understand. Once again, I'm simply hoping to stimulate yet another vibrant discussion on the topic so if you don't agree with anything I say here, please don't be offended, it's nothing personal - I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here and challenge some very traditionally held views on the topic. For the record, my mother-in-law has put pressure on my partner and I to adopt as gay couples can adopt in the UK - but I have adamantly refused to become a parent even via adoption. No, not after the childhood I had. I just can't face the thought of raising a child only to not get along with him/her after s/he becomes an adult.
Do you want to become a parent?

"Children fill your life with fun and laughter - without them, life would be a lot less fun." 

My friends who do not have children have plenty of free time on their hands - they have a choice of either spending more time at work or going to pursue other interests in their free time when not working and having a vibrant social life. From the moment you have a baby, unless you have a supportive extended family or if you can afford to pay for quality childcare, every spare moment will be spent on childcare when the child is young. The bad news is that you can kiss goodbye to your hobbies, your friends, any kind of sports you enjoy, watching the latest movies - forget all of that and be prepared to change nappies, wake up in the middle of the night when the baby starts crying and it will be quite a few years before you can even leave the child on their own at home for a few hours. If you do not have that extended family or the money to pay for childcare, can you shoulder that kind of responsibility whilst holding down a job? Will the stress of taking care of the child affect your performance at work? Children may bring some joy to your life, but that is contingent on you taking pleasure in seeing them have fun rather than the other way around.

"Having a child feels like the final piece to complete the puzzle of my life." 

At my gymnastics club, I see two kinds of adults - there are the adults who take part in our adult gymnastics programme and continue to enjoy the fun of the sport. Then there are the adults who hang around, waiting to pick their kids up after their training. I often joke with the parents waiting to pick their kids up that they should come and join us in the adult classes. One mother said to me, "actually I'd love to, I see you guys always having so much fun. I used to do gymnastics when I was a student years ago, but I have to get my daughter home after training so I'm afraid I can't." She gets saddled with the boring tasks whilst her daughter has fun? That sounds like a pretty bad deal for the mother - if not for that responsibility, I'm sure she could find a far more interesting way to pass those few hours where she gets to focus on herself instead of her daughter. There are only so many hours a day and between holding down a job and caring for your children, unfortunately most parents find that they have virtually no time left for themselves.
Is it selfish for adults to actually want a little 'me' time? I had this conversation with a director in a company I dealt with - he lived way out in south London then and his office was in central London. When I found out that his train journey into town takes about an hour everyday, I asked him if it was possible to work from home sometimes to spare him spending two hours a day commuting, His answer surprised me, "hell no, I love my commute. I have children at home and the moment I step into the house, either my wife or my kids want my attention. When I am in the office, I have a department to run and I have either someone in accounts wishing to speak to me about some budget or someone in marketing wishing to talk to me about the new strategy for their latest project. It's like the only time I am ever on my own is when I am on the train, I turn my phone off, I can read a book or just stare out of the window and just empty my mind, not having to do anything else." I suggested that he try something like yoga to relax and he said, "sure that sounds like a great idea but really, with four kids, I just have no time to do anything like that." I'd hate to think that riding the northern line to and from work is the favourite part of his day - but that seemed to be the case.

"I want there to be a little part of me left in this world after I die." 

Many people are afraid of death, this fear of mortality is normal and we often feel a deep sense of sadness when someone famous dies, mostly because that reminds us that we too, will die one day. Many people actually have children because there is a part of them that will live on after they die and if their children have children, then their DNA will be passed on long after they die. However, I do wonder why these people think their DNA is worth preserving: do they have any wonderful athletic ability that should be passed on? Are they some brilliant scientists with extremely high IQs? Or are they just ordinary folks who have really not achieved a single thing worth boasting about in their entire lifetime? Rather than investing so much time and effort into bringing a child into the world, why don't they first spend a few more years trying to achieve something worthwhile before turning their minds to making babies? If you were to die today, what would be your legacy to the world? George Michael was a gay man who had no children - yet he left behind such an incredibly legacy with his music when he died and so many people will miss him now he is gone.
"I want to share my dreams with my children." 

I see this a lot with my parents' generation: my mother had unfulfilled dreams of playing the piano, so she forced all her children to take piano lessons. My two sisters dutifully did as they are told without questioning my mother - I protested every step of the day until the day I took my very last piano exam. I told my mother that the only person in the family who was interested in playing the piano was her and that she should be the one taking the lesson - not me, I never had any interest at all. Why the heck was I the one taking the piano lessons and not her? It made no sense at all: but my mother simply didn't have the self-confidence to learn something new like that. She confessed that whilst she loved the idea of being able to play the piano beautifully, she thought it was too difficult to learn at her age, her fingers were too clumsy and she would struggle to read music. And I was like, that's for you to deal with - but how is making me learn how to play the piano any kind of sensible alternative to that?  And even if my mother turned out to be terrible at the piano, at least she would have enjoyed taking piano lessons far more than I ever did. Parents should always let their children choose their own interests, rather than use them as a vessel for their unfulfilled dreams.

"There is something special about the mother-child bond."

My friends who are mothers have told me about that magical bond they have with their children. "Alex, that baby was in me for nine months, that baby was a part of me, grew in me - that created a special bond that will never ever break once that child leaves my body and you'll never understand it because firstly, you're a man and you're not a parent." I don't want to question the kind of feelings a mother will experience during pregnancy, but please forgive my cynicism as I am barely on talking terms with my mother. Didn't I come from her womb too? Didn't I spent 9 months there before I was born? So how can it be that my mother doesn't even know what the heck I do for a living today? I think too many mothers assume that they will always have that kind of special bond with their child and then they get a rude shock when their children grow up to become teenagers - suddenly, that magical mother-child bond is no substitute for proper parenting skills. That mother-child bond is mostly experienced by the mother but not always by the child - that's rather presumptuous of the mother to assume that this bond goes both ways. A mother may have experienced all kinds of emotions when she was pregnant whilst few of us have conscious memory of anything until we are at least 3.
"I may not be Superman, but I can be Superdad!" 

Oh dear. I have encountered people who want to become a parent because of this notion that they will be a great parent. The worst part is that these people have not achieved any kind of remarkable success in their careers, so they default to, "hey I may be a clerk who spends her time doing loads of boring administration work for very little money, but I can be the best mom in the world! I may have been a disappointment in both my studies and my career, but I can make it up through parenthood and raise the perfect child who will go on and be a superstar!" Oh dear. Talk about a recipe for disaster. You see, parents with this mindset are usually not complete disasters in their own lives, but neither are they successes. They are certainly not good role models for their children You should be a parent because you want to have a child, not because you're wishing to use parenthood to plug a gaping hole in your life. Such people should focus on fixing the problems in their lives rather than see parenthood as the solution to their problems.

"My children will take care of me when I am old."

Oh this is so Asian. That's a really bad reason to have children. Let's run through the following scenarios:

- You may have children who are simply not in a position to take care of you because say by the time you're 80, they are 50 but they cannot afford to retire and become full time carers. At the age of 50, they may have children still trying to finish further education or they may be in debt (a mortgage for example) or quite simply, they may be simply working hard just to make ends meet because they earn so little money. You are really rolling the dice and gambling that your child will be rich enough by the age of about 50 to become your full time carer - there's absolutely no guarantee that will happen. I've seen very intelligent parents produce children who struggle at school and by the same token, I've also seen very average parents produce children who are super high-fliers. In short, life is just too uncertain: without a crystal ball, you have no idea just how capable that baby is going to be in a few decades' time.
- Even if your child is earning a lot of money and very filial, health may be an issue. Case study 1: Evelyn is one such filial child who was prepared to take care of her parents when they got old, but when she turned 47, she found a lump in her breast and was diagnosed with breast cancer. The next few years saw her leaving her job, undergoing treatment and it was extremely traumatic for her to say the least. Evelyn's parents were there for her and they took care of their daughter as Evelyn was in very poor health for the next few years. So even if Evelyn wanted to take care of her parents, her ill health prevented her from doing so and it was her elderly parents who still took care of her.

- Case study 2: Chung was an extremely filial son who had every intention to take care of his parents when they were old. One day as he was returning from work late at night, he was a victim of a hit and run accident which left him severely injured. As a result, he was left crippled and in very poor health for a long time. As in the case above, Chung's elderly parents had to step in and take care of him instead, for he was simply not in a position to take care of them.
- Case study 3: Lillian wanted to have a child to take care of her when she grew old, however, her first child was diagnosed with Down syndrome and she was warned to see if she could cope with caring for that child before trying for another. When she learned more about Down syndrome, she soon realized that this severely disabled child was never ever going to be able to take care of her when she was old and she would be the child's carer until her dying day

I could go on, but there are a multitude of reasons why a child may not be in a position to take care of their parents: what if in the case of Evelyn and Chung, the cancer or accident resulted in the death of the child. Life can be unpredictable and there is every possibility that your child may die before you - then what? The bottom line is that having children is no substitute for sound financial planning - you need savings, you need a pension plan, you cannot rely on anyone else but yourself to finance your retirement. If you become ill and frail in your advanced years, make sure you have set aside enough money to hire the best healthcare professionals to care for you then. This simply boils down to sound financial planning - you should only really have children if you can already take care of yourself rather than expect them to take care of you. If you haven't made plans for your retirement yet, consult a financial advisor!
"If I don't have children, my parents will be disappointed."

Oh that's the worst one I've heard and to be fair, it's not just Chinese parents who do that. I've been to enough weddings in the UK and I've heard so many parents put pressure on the newly weds to have a baby as soon as possible as if that was the sole purpose of them getting married. Having a baby should be the decision of the parents, not the grandparents. In recent posts, we have talked about how parents and grandparents wield certain mechanisms to wield control over their children and grandchildren: I'm going to use my own parents for example. When my sister graduated and became a highly skilled professional holding a well paid job, my parents soon realized they have no idea what the hell my sister does for a living - it's not like she tried to hide anything from them: she would tell them everything that is going on in her life, the only problem was that my parents are not educated enough to understand any of the complex projects she handled at work. It was all simply beyond their understanding for they were retired primary school teachers: I'm afraid anything more complex than the PSLE syllabus simply confuses them.

My sister had did everything she was told: she studied hard at school and had excellent results every step of the way. She got a degree from NUS - something my parents never achieved and within a few years of working, she was earning far more than my parents. Though they'll never admit it, the way my sister had done everything right had somehow left them feeling inadequate in comparison and they were scrambling around to find ways to criticize the perfect daughter. The one way they could make her feel inadequate was her marital status: she was single. So instead of praising her for all the great things she achieved, they nagged at her to get married. When she finally did get married, they nagged at her to have children. When she had a son, they nagged at her to become a better mother - you see, my mother had more children than my sister, so in her mind, it was one thing she did better than my sister since she had performed worse in every other aspect of her life. That is why my mother had been so obsessed with pressuring my sister on the subject of motherhood for that perverse reason. But in my mother's head, it does make complete sense: in her culture, a woman's primary duty is to be a good wife and mother, not to have a career.
Should a woman have a career after she has children?

So are my mother's actions wrong? Yes - she should have put my sister's interests first. Is it unusual? No. I remember when I was in Singapore, my sister had a Wii console and I played a few different games with my nephew - I found that I was good at some and sucked at others. Naturally, my nephew wanted to play the games that I sucked at, so that he would always win and he avoided the ones where I had any chances of winning. You see, it is human nature to want to win and we all hate to lose - what my nephew did in making those choices is perfectly normal and quite frankly, I didn't mind losing to him as long at those games as we could hang out and had fun together. My mother's choice to pressure my sister to have children is really no different from my nephew choosing the games where he would win - the desire to 'win' is often so strong it becomes our primary motivation without us even realizing it. Fortunately, in this case, my sister did have a maternal instinct and a very strong desire to become a mother and I suspect that is in part because of the way she has simply surrendered and embraced her culture's expectations of her in a way I never did.

"I have always wanted to be a parent, ever since I was little."

That's a mistake that a lot of people make because in their minds, they imagine that their children will take after them and be like them. It's almost an ego thing - to want to create a 'Mini Me', those of you who have seen the Austin Powers will know how Dr Evil created a mini clone of himself because he was so disappointed with his son (see clip below - really great movies BTW). But without the kind of technology that allows us to clone replicas of ourselves, you are really rolling the dice to see what kind of child you may have and that's a process you have little control over. I am sometimes shocked at how completely different I am from my parents to the point where I wonder just how much one's character is nurture vs nature. After all, I am such a passive aggressive bitch who went out of my way to make sure that I don't share a first or even a second language with my father, just to prove to him that I'm nothing like him at all.
I know that there are many good parents out there who do understand that their children may turn out to be totally different from themselves and do not expect to bring up 'Mini Mes'. I have seen a lot of conflict between parents and children because the children have decided to follow a different path that their parents have set out for them. Either the parents were trying to create 'Mini Mes' or were trying to channel all their unfulfilled desires and dreams to their children (ref: my mother forcing me to learn the piano), but either way, when the children choose a totally different paths for themselves, some parents react extremely negatively because they didn't get the child they wanted. But such is parenthood, it is not shopping - you can't take the child back to the store and ask for a refund. You are stuck with whatever child you have: the child may be gay/lesbian, may be hopeless at school, may be completely different from you and have different ideas of the world - are you then prepared as a parent to accept that when it happens?

"I had a terrible childhood, I want to make things right by being the perfect parent." 

I've actually encountered a few parents like that before. These are people who have had terrible childhoods and really bad relationships with their parents - as adults, they are simply not in a position to fix the poor relationships they have with their parents (often it is too late, the damage done is irreparable), so instead, they want to retrospectively make things right by being the perfect parent. They want to show their parents by example how parenting should be done properly. Often they end up doing the complete opposite of what their parents did - "my parents never let choose what TV programmes to watch so I am going to trust my children to make the right choices when it comes to TV". Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't: context is everything. A parent should make the best choices for the child based on the child's needs, rather than a resentful desire to just do the complete opposite of what their parents did.
Some people are trying to fix the past by having children.

"Having a child will bring the couple closer together as you become parents." 

I have a problem with people with that mindset - shouldn't you want to be close to your spouse regardless of whether you have any children or not? Time for another case study: I know of this woman Julie whose husband used to stay out late after work, going drinking with his colleagues. Julie was left feeling very frustrated - her husband claimed that it was necessary for him to network with the guys at work in order to be accepted in an environment where there was a lot of office politics and he had little choice. She saw little of him and they felt they were drifting apart so they decided to try for a baby. After Julie had her first baby, she pressured her husband into coming home earlier from work to share the childcare responsibilities and it did work. To be fair, her husband did make a genuine effort to try to become a good father for their young child and Julie was relieved that the baby did provide a solution to her situation.

I do have a problem with Julie using the baby as a pawn in her relationship - if she wanted her husband to spend more time her, she should have addressed the situation without introducing a baby into the equation. Fast forward several years, Julie and her husband drifted even further apart and have become the couple who have stayed together just to give their young daughter a stable environment and a happy childhood. The only thing they seem to have in common was their love for their daughter, but they have long fallen out of love with each other. However, any thought of divorce was out of the question as they both wanted the best for their daughter and that meant staying together for her. Julie's daughter is now 14 years old and in a few years' time, she will be going to university and I wonder what will happen then, when the daughter is finally an adult? Will that marriage finally fall apart once their daughter leaves home? Or will they then pressure their daughter to give them grandchildren just so they can stay together for a new purpose? 
Julie's husband worked very long hours

"Giving life to another human being is the most generous act of kindness you can do." 

Oh I beg to differ. What kind of life are you giving this child you've brought into the world? I have talked about this case where a working class single mother has raised a child who has been causing all kinds of trouble at school - the child gets into all kinds of trouble everyday and doesn't listen to the teachers. Fingers point back to the mother who is at best guilty of neglect, at worst, she is responsible for creating a monster. This woman works all day as a market traders, selling products at a street market and hence has little time to care for her son who has been left to his own devices everyday for years. What kind of childhood does he have? What kind of parenting skills does this single mother have? The gift of life doesn't end at childbirth - you have the next 18 years to contend with. If you are going to bring a child into this world then taking parenting seriously is an act of responsibility, not generosity. If you bring a children into this world, only to subject them to a miserable childhood, then you're not generous, you're a monster.

If you really want to be generous, then do acts of charity: tales of George Michael's extraordinary generosity and kindness emerged after his death - this man gave away vast sums of money to charity. If you want to be a kind, generous person, there are thousands of charities out there you can support - you don't have to have a baby you know. The act of copulating creates a baby - that isn't the gift of life, that is a result of a biological process, a result of a man and a woman fucking and impregnating the woman. Carrying a baby to term doesn't make you generous, choosing not to do so doesn't make you selfish either - that is why I am so pissed off when I hear people accusing adults who don't have children as selfish. The world is overpopulated already and you want to make more babies?  Let's not glorify the act of reproduction: even animals are capable of having sex and producing offspring, it is but a biological process. Do you know the difference between being a responsible parent and being generous?
Do you know what generosity really is?

So, where do I stand on this issue?

Am I anti-parents? No, but I do have something against people who have children and become parents despite not considering what the hell they are getting themselves into. In such a situation, it is the unwanted children who ultimately suffer the results of poor parenting and I consider myself one such victim. My parents were under a lot of pressure from their families not just to have a children but to have a son - nobody actually gave them a plan as to what to do after the son finally came along, as if everything would magically fall into place when they clearly didn't. They struggled to cope with having so many children but most of all, failed to take into account the widening generation gap that was a result of the world changing so quickly. Instead of trying to deal with the problem, they just went into total denial and refused to even acknowledge it and as a result, I'm pretty much estranged from my parents today.

I know there will be people who will be leaving my hateful messages like, how dare you be so ungrateful, your parents brought you into this world and raised you yet you have the audacity to question whether it was the right choice to even have you in the first place. How would you feel if your mother had an abortion instead of keeping you? I ask you to spare a thought for every child out there who is currently having a miserable childhood and every adult out there who's hurting on the inside because they too had a miserable childhood and with that in mind, I put this to you: we are made to take a difficult driving test before we are allowed to get behind the wheel of a car and drive, yet we allow anyone to become a parent without any kind of verification if these people are prepared for the duties of parenthood or even have any kind of basic parenting skills? I hope I've given you plenty of food for thought - as always, I can't wait to hear your responses. So, please leave a comment below and let me know what you think. Many thanks for reading.

65 comments:

  1. The only justifiable reason to have children is that one genuinely, from the bottom of one's heart, loves children, unconditionally, and wants to provide the best for them. Children are not tools that one should use to conveniently complete one's life, please parents-in-law, secure one's retirement, achieve one's dreams vicariously, etc.

    The saddest thing, and I suspect you know it too, is that 99% of Chinese parents not only don't have children for the right reasons but also for the wrongest reason: they see children as an investment vehicle to produce an ROI to enrich their own lives. That ROI isn't necessarily money; it also includes pride, companionship, labor, ego, validation, need to feel important, etc. etc. It's so bloody obvious that most parents love their kids more whenever they, say, get good grades in school or win a sporting competition and love their kids less whenever they disobey parental advice or fail their exams. I don't think Chinese parents know the concept of "unconditional" love at all, which technically means they don't know the concept of love whatsoever, because is love really love unless it's unconditional?

    My sister had a childhood friend, let's call her Nicole, who had a huge argument with her mother over some petty financial matters when she was 21 or so. She tried to reason with her mother, but did her mother listen? Hell no, her mother was deeply ingrained in the "I'm the mother, you're the daughter, you're wrong, I'm right, so sit down and shut up and listen to me. End of story." mindset. At one point, her mother stormed out of the living room into the bedroom and emerged with an old little exercise book and tossed it in Nicole's face.

    She told Nicole to read it.

    Nicole opened the exercise book to see a record of a various expenses: milk powder, napkins, medical expenses, books, school fees, clothes, food, piano lessons, toys, etc. Her mother then screamed at her, matter-of-factly, "You want to talk about money? This is a complete record of all the money I spent on you from the day you were born all the way to the day you turned 18 years old. I don't think you can ever pay me back all the money I spent on you. And you still want to talk about money!?"

    I wish I was making this up, but these things happen. I find it deplorable that Nicole's mother would even bring something up like that, because Nicole clearly didn't ask to be born. It was Nicole's mother who deliberately wanted to have Nicole, knowing that she'd be a dependant for at least 18 years of her life. Nicole's mother willingly walked into the deal with both eyes open -- no one blindsided or hoodwinked her -- and now, when the going gets tough, she turns around and basically refuses to take responsibility for a decision she made with a clear head 20 years ago?

    There's nothing that makes a child feel more unloved than for the parent to in any way imply that she would rather not have the kid in the first place. Nicole's mother blatantly violated this. And guess what? It's been at least 6-8 years now, and still her mother has never apologized for her actions.

    My whole point is that having children for the wrong reasons is not just the norm, but some bat-shit crazy parents even take it to detestable extremes. Very, very few parents have kids for the right reasons; they're the exception, not the norm. Because of that, these very very few kids are the fortunate ones.

    You, and I, and billions of other Asian kids (and non-Asian kids, for that matter), aren't that lucky.

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    1. So Hmong Bong, would you want to have kids?

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    2. I can't think of an easier way to ruin a perfectly-good life other than to have children.

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  2. Screw that don't want a kid and never will consider it. I find other people's kid super annoying and the spouse's retort is always it will be different if its your kid. I doubt so, a cry baby wakes everyone up regardless of who is the parent.
    Plus I doubt I will make a good parent I had no role models growing up and don't have the patience to handhold anyone for such a long period of time.

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    1. Aaah. Interesting. Cos I know you: you're a straight man, a married straight man with a beautiful wife - how do you respond to the 4 parents putting pressure on the two of you to have a baby then?

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    2. I don't really care what my parents think to be honest. I won't argue with them since it is futile but i don't have to action whatever they tell me to do. I left home straight after NS and their influence on me is so minimal after close to 2 decades so there is that.
      As for the inlaws, FIL has passed away and MIL probably would be quite far away so i can ignore her as well since wife would most likely end up in Singapore or whichever country i think of moving to next.

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  3. Wow! Big question. I think we more or less have the same universal needs, of which no less than 12 have been listed here. Are children a suitable means to have these various needs met?

    My opinion point by point:
    •For fun and laughter
    Sounds like a desire for community, for belonging. I believe being part of community is essential - children might be a good means...
    as long they are NOT one's only community!!
    For the first few years at least, the parents need to be busy giving energy to the kids, which might be fun for the kids but not the parents!! We need relationships, but shouldnt bet solely on kids to meet all our needs
    • Final Puzzle
    This bothers me. Sounds like, if i may be poetic, a lost lamb trying to use its kid as a map to what it really desires.
    • Legacy.. piece of you..
    Ah this makes me think of Kings & Empires. Hey if one is financial secure enough to bestow an inheritance - a Kingdom or an Empire even, why not?
    • Unfulfilled dreams
    Another one that bothers me. Sounds like a spineless coward trying to use children to fulfill his dream on his behalf, as if its some sort of easy way out.
    •Mother Child Bond
    Hmm.. i think its magic when it works. That said, i think all friendship is magic when we invest in one another. Perhaps whats really crucial is the level of investment in the ones we care about?
    •Parenting as achievement
    Sounds like yet another spineless person.
    Better to achieve, then have kids and be a role model achiever for him or her to follow.
    •Take care of You when old
    Yup, its a gamble.
    •Disappoint. Parents
    They want to have grandkids, thats normal.
    I believe if would be grand parents want to have grand kids, then they better be prepared to pay for it in money and time - time spent helping to raise the kids while mummy's at work.
    We should be taking responsibility for what we what and not pass the burden of our whims and fancies to anyone, certainly not the next generation.
    •Parents "mini-me"
    Again, spineless. Want influence over people?
    Theres instagram, hell, start a blog :D
    •Having children as "therapy"
    Oh dear. Such a person will recreate the abusive environment they suffered, despite themselves - the research is clear on this and i have also seen it firsthand. i sympathize though. My ex thought this way. And no, i didn't knock her up, thank God.
    •Bring the couple together
    Let's say i'm an equal share partner in a company. Me and my partner are having conflicts, which have not been resolved. Instead of disolving the company or hiring a third party to negotiate, we decide to expand the company and rope in more partners in the vague hope these new partners will resolve our problems.
    Doesn't make any bloody sense does it?
    •Giving Life
    Hmm.. no comment yet. What is this thing we call "life"?

    In conclusion, i believe we have many means to meet our human needs, having children being just one means.
    And having children is a big leadership challenge, the returns are big, but so is the investment. Cowards and paupers need not apply (yet they often do)


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    1. Hahahaha, I like what you said about influencing people: blog! Instagram! Well my parents' generation do not have the internet, I wonder how the internet would change our generation's perspective on that aspect, or would they just default to old, fashioned cultural norms. I have mentioned this example so many times: my sister is super intelligent, super capable: I look up to her, she is successful, good at everything in her life. Yet she makes some pretty questionable decisions sometimes because she puts aside her incredible brain and allows her Chinese culture to dictate some aspects of her life for her. What gives? And I know she is super tech-savvy and does social media etc.

      In any case Chen, do you want children?

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    2. Yes. I feel the 'want'
      However, its gonna be awhile before u send me a congratulatory bottle of scotch :D
      I estimate it will be another 5 years + for me to get my mind and money right AND find the right person for marriage!
      Let me build my 'Kingdom' clarify my needs, and find a woman who doesn't need kids as therapy!
      I'm in 'Everything To Do minus one' state of mind now. No unnecessary additions please!!

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    3. I don't believe in congratulating people in making a baby. Even animals are capable of creating an offspring through the act of copulation - it's fucking at the end of the day. Do I congratulate my friends each time they get laid? No. Whether or not the sperm actually fertilizes the egg is completely random, there have been couples who have tried for a baby for a long time and failed despite there being nothing wrong with their reproductive organs. I will congratulate you when you prove to me that you can be a great parent. Now that's something worth congratulating about.

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    4. Well, anyone can go on a holiday, but I got angry with my mother because even when I pass her a piece of information like "I want to go to Bulgaria" - she makes it about her when clearly, it is not about her. She isn't going to Bulgaria with me, she doesn't want to go to Bulgaria with me - yet somehow, her only response to any piece of random information I give her is to make it all about her as if the sun shines out of her ass and the world revolves around her. See, such people have ZERO social skills and it is infuriating to even try to have basic, normal conversations with people like that. You see, if you told me you were going to Sofia, I'd be like, oh is it for business or pleasure? Have you been to Bulgaria before? How long are you going to stay there? What will you be doing when you are there? Any time for a day trip out of Sofia etc? I'll be interested to know about YOU and I would never make it about me.

      You can see why I don't talk to my mother if I can help it.

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    5. hahaha!
      ~ A human being is the most sophisticated machine ever made by unskilled labor

      Delete
    6. Well Chen, when my sister had her son, there was an element of relief on my part because child birth is obviously a traumatic experience for the mother, so much pain, all kinds of complexities can arise if she doesn't have a straight forward birth and when she delivered the baby, I was just relieved and happy to know that both mother and son were healthy and doing fine. So it's not like I was cold and unemotional, but it has to be put in context.

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    7. Yes, your newphew is a delight for you i think :)
      Wasn't implying anything bad with the above quote (which is from one of my old psychology textbooks); i meant to illustrate at once both the magic AND the challenge of life.

      Having taught children before, i found it a wonderful experience. But to really teach a child effectively does demand surprising amount of energy and expertise. By effective i mean effectively building a bond of trust, whilst giving them the necessary information to learn skills.

      Adults can be.. overconfident! Thinking only of the magic of children, & not fully recognising that its also hard work

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    8. Well Chen, I don't think it is as delightful as you think. I do experience all kinds of emotions with my nephew - you see, he's 8 time zones away in Singapore, how am I supposed to be any kind of influence in his life? I have concerns about his upbringing (as expressed in the last post) as well as his education but am simply not in any position to do anything about it. And quite frankly, I don't know what to do when around him - for example, when he mispronounces a word in English (he has a very strong accent), do I correct him? But if I do, will I make him feel self-conscious in the process? Will I upset him if I do so, will he take it the wrong way? Will he understand that I am trying to help him rather than put him down? I do have so many doubts about how to be an uncle.

      My brother-in-law's girlfriend Stephanie is a wonder with kids, I've seen her in action before: like she is a natural, she knows how to speak to a child at their wavelength, show genuine interest without being condescending and kids love her. Whereas with me, I'm like, what the hell do I have to say to a kid? Nothing. Don't expect me to do what Steph does so well, I don't know how to show interest in anything the kid has to say. Yet my family shoves me in front of my nephew and I fear I say the wrong thing. I talk to him as if he's an adult - I don't talk down at him just because he's a kid and that's the only way I know how to talk to him. My parents talk to him like he's 3 and that's so wrong.

      I have experienced something extraordinary with my partner's niece - when she was young, I didn't know how to talk to her at all when she was a kid. Then the first time I had a proper conversation with her was when she was at university (Oxford, medicine) - suddenly she had blossomed into an ambitious young woman with strong political opinions about feminism and I realized, wow now I find you highly interesting compared to a few years ago when you were but a girl. I remember one day we took the dogs for a long walk and we chatted for over an hour, just her and I. http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/lift-vlog-episode-54-walking-dogs-at.html When will I ever to speak for an hour with my nephew like that?

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    9. So yeah, a delight? We have our moments of bonding - but most of the time I'm just worried. Like how is my nephew going to cope with NS? And I'm not there in Singapore, so I can't help either. The only thing that reassures me is that I know that his father deals with the problems he is facing in quite the same way I would. To cut a long story short, my sister wanted my nephew to talk to me about one issue about friends at school - I then realized that his father has already given him exactly the same advice as I would have given. So I'm not really needed - well, at least I know he is getting the help he needs. That's reassuring for me, so far away in England.

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    10. Aye, hes got Mum, Dad, internet, books, classmates and Far Away Uncle..
      Hes got many many counter-influencers
      Parenting has a decisive influence on our lives, but with that said we aren't made of glass either.

      And speaking of NS? Trust me mate, its a far cry from what u went through. These days even a spineless wimp will survive. If thats any consolation!

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    11. Chen, there was this poster I saw when I was a kid, it became my mantra. The words on it read: don't pray for an easy life, pray to be tough. And of course, on that poster was a gymnast doing a difficult strength move on the balance beam. Clearly my eyes were drawn to the poster because of the gymnast but more to the point, it makes complete sense. As for NS, I don't wish for my nephew to have a holiday camp experience there - rather, I wish instead that he will have every opportunity to learn as much as he cane from the process and grow to become a mature, sensible and thoughtful man as a result of the experience. So many people in his life treat him like he's an idiot incapable of learning anything - but idiot or not, he's got to go through life and I'd rather treat him like anyone else who has to learn valuable lessons in life and face the same challenges like everyone else. You can't wrap the kid up in bubble wrap forever.

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    12. Alex, im with u on this. Personally i envision a life of 'simple & tough'
      The modern trend of fancy & easy is hmm..
      almost corrupting.
      Maybe ur Sis could put him through gymnastics?
      Or boxing? Learning to get hit in the face, to compete, thats a good education!

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    13. Oh dear, you have to realize, he's not a normal child, he is autistic. My sister has tried putting him through several different sports but he gave up on all of them. They really wanted him to learn Tae kwando but he gave up on that as well, believe you me, my sister gets an A for effort in pushing him but you can't force him to do anything - there's no point.

      Please, I don't want you to think that my sister hasn't tried to help her son - she has tried a zillion things, believe you me. She loves him so dearly.

      But let me tell you why he can't learn sports - I saw him try to play ping pong, he's new to it and he can't play well. He gets angry and frustrated every time he fails to score a point and throws a massive tantrum because he is angry with himself, the game, everyone. Autistic children cannot deal with their feelings and don't know how to express them - it doesn't help him stay calm in a situation where you have to stay calm and humble, listen to the teacher/coach whilst learning how to play ping pong. Whereas in his perfect world of computer games where he seeks solace, if he fucks up and 'dies' in the game, no problem: he'll just pretend it never happen, start a new game and repeats the process until he gets the outcome he wants. There is no "penalty" for not succeeding the first time whereas in sports, the "penalty" is the humiliation you experience with defeat and failure. Us normal folks can handle failure, defeat and humiliation in sports - we put it in context, my nephew sadly can't. It's worrying how badly he handles it. Given his difficult behaviour, it's clear to see why every sports coach/teacher has found him very, very hard to teach and why he always retreats to his safe world of computer games.

      Whereas I'm like the total opposite, when I play table tennis and I fail to score a point, I instantly say 'sorry' to my opponent. And my friend had to ask me, "why do you say sorry every time you miss the ball?" I said it's the humility thing, in gymnastics training, every time you make a mistake (however small), you apologize to the coach to acknowledge that you can do better. I've been trained to be humble for so many years, so it's a reflex. Sigh, my nephew is the total opposite. He can't handle defeat. Can you see why I am worried about him doing NS, under such circumstances?

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    14. Hey Alex, i was under the impression it was relatively mild autism. Naturally ur intelligent sister has tried many obvious options already. The last thing he needs is overbearing parents making him feel even more incompetent. Now i think i have a clearer picture. Tricky situation.

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    15. sorry meant Grandparents

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    16. Well, I think the autism was much, much worse when he was younger - you can't cure autism but you can teach the patients various coping mechanisms to fit in and get on in the real world. I have seen improvements in him, a lot of improvement believe you me but naturally, as you said, the grandparents are not exactly helping at the moment by holding him back. (Ref: my previous post on that topic).

      Delete
  4. Hi Sandra,

    Are you under pressure from your extended family to have children now that you're happily married?

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  5. On the flip side of the "having kids for wrong reasons" phenomenon, we have a converse social occurrence known as "overly defensive about NOT having kids" here in SG.

    During a recent company dinner, my colleague (single, in his 30s) was to receive an award.
    Before inviting him on stage, the MC (older man, sarcastically witty type) attempted to entertain the audience "you work too hard thats why you get this award. At your age, I was already married w/3 kids. Well, you better get cracking!" Many people laughed.

    The awardee was infuriated; when he came up to receive his award, instead of a "thank you speech" he unleashed a diatribe against the MC saying his remarks were uncalled-for and "you should not be so judgmental proclaiming to everyone here, that marriage & children is the way to live my life".

    It was meant as a harmless joke, albeit in bad taste. But the anger implies he's sensitive / unhappy about his situation, rather than brushing it off (he is usually a good natured guy).
    Im wondering if he over-reacted & what would you have done if someone suggested in front of a crowd that you "better get cracking" to have children?

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    Replies
    1. Well CLT, I think you have to put yourself in his shoes - I do believe that the remark was uncalled for. I see the very toxic relationship between my perfect sister and my mother - my sister does everything she is told, excelled in her studies, has a great job, married with a son: yet my mother who is so insecure has to find that one thing by her standards to make my sister feel bad about her situation and that is that she only has one child. Instead of feeling happy that she is blessed with such a great daughter, she has gone out of her way to find something to make her daughter feel bad about herself?! I can see why your colleague got upset - the joke was in very bad taste and I can't imagine anyone in a British company trying anything that crass.

      Here's why it was in such bad taste: it shows a total lack of empathy. The award was about the recipient, not the MC for crying out aloud. Why the fuck was the MC comparing the situation to himself when it was not about him? It had nothing to do with him, he didn't win the award, he was just the person presenting it - yet he chose to make it about himself which is a terribly crass thing to do. I hate people like that so much.

      I blew up at my mother over Skype on the weekend. I said to her that I might be going to Bulgaria soon and it's -25 in Sofia right now and she went on and on about how she cannot tahan the cold and I was like, what the fuck: who's going to Bulgaria? Are you going to join me in Bulgaria? What the fuck is wrong with you? Why can't you ask me what I am going to do there instead of making it about you? Unless you wanna get on a plane and join me in Sofia, why the fuck are you telling me what you think about the weather there? What the hell is wrong with you - why can't you see things from another person's POV? Why do you always want to make anything and everything about yourself - the world doesn't revolve around you, the sun doesn't shine out of your ass, this isn't about you!

      So you can see why I think that MC is a fucking asshole for saying what he did. That's right. He should go fuck himself.

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    2. Seems to be the very crass style of humor thats popular around here. Its a joke at the expense of the awardee; its insinuating that he has lower social value and people may be laughing at that.
      If its was Kumar doing stand up comedy at comedy club maybe ok, hey its just banter. A guy going to receive an award, to receive applause isn't there to be laughed at

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    3. Thank you Chen - I am glad I'm not the only one who found that motherfucker MC's joke downright offensive.

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    4. I guess by sharing that anecdote, what Im trying to ask is this-
      Which is worse: to have kids without thinking much about it since its the expected thing to do, and spend the next 2 decades being responsible for someone else, with unpredictable outcomes

      Or NOT to have kids as one determined to flout social norms & live for oneself, but risk ending up with vague dissatisfaction & emptiness later in life wondering what 'could have been'.
      My point is the guy who defended himself came across as pretending that he is ok with being childless but secretly, he may be upset about it. Would you buy that?

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    5. CLT, you're approaching the topic of having kids the wrong way round. You don't have kids the same way you go out and buy a car or a pair of shoes. I have to take this personally because I definitely will never have kids.

      Being parents made my parents fucking miserable. They raised 3 kids and their only son has no respect for them and lives 8 time zones away - we barely talk. Oh I bet they're thinking, damn if only we stopped at 2 kids and not bothered to try for a son. See how badly wrong things can go? You talk about how being a parent can help you avoid emptiness later in life - well guess what? I don't bloody talk to my parents - we don't have a relationship! Talk about emptiness. That word would describe the conversations I don't have with my father. When I skype my sister, I know my dad is somewhere there in the room cos I can hear the TV programme and it's always some crappy stupid China programme on CCTV - I don't wanna talk to my dad and he sure as hell doesn't wanna talk to me. Now that's as empty as you get - he spent all these years raising me and is there a relationship there today? No, instead of a relationship, there's nothing but a vast EMPTINESS where there should have been a loving relationship.

      I know you and your son have a good relationship - I'm glad for you, well spare a thought for miserable fuckers like me who don't have a relationship to speak of with our parents. Maybe your colleague dodged the bullet - he avoided a father-son relationship as bitter and empty as mine. Parenthood could bring you joy or bring you a lot of heartache and pain. Having seen the way my parents fuck up, I just think, no way I'm going to take that risk. No way. Fuck that shit, I'm going to find other ways to fill the emptiness later in my life because hello, am I spending time with my parents to fill the emptiness in their lives? No, we don't even fucking talk. I'm 8 time zones away and we don't have a relationship. And you wanna fucking talk about EMPTINESS with me?

      Look CLT, if you were to raise this with one of your friends who is happily married with kids, s/he will probably agree with you. But you've come to me - the one person who is not even on talking terms with his parents and you wanna talk about this? You are so barking up the wrong tree. Talk about salah.

      I fucking hate the idea of being a parent - I hate it so much and that's purely based on my own awful experience in my dysfunctional family. So don't you come here and hint that your colleague may be upset about it - I don't fucking buy it. Some of us don't wanna be parents and you have to respect our choices in life. How would you feel if I were to turn around and look at your son's academic record and called you a failure as a father - ooh how does it feel to be judged by others then? No, I don't judge you so you sure as hell shouldn't judge others who don't wanna have any fucking children.

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    6. When you realize that things aren't working out as a parent, when you can't handle the responsibilities of being a parent - can you take the child to the orphanage and say, "hey this one isn't working out, can I get an exchange or refund?" No, you can't you're stuck with that child. And you risk fucking up two people's lives: your own and your child's. It's not something to be taken lightly - you need to have met the right person and settled down before you're ready to contemplate having a baby. It's not about flouting social norms and living for oneself, it's about not fucking up two people's lives. My parents fucked my up life royally and gave me a miserable childhood - I in turn, turned out to be the awful son who fought with them every step of the way and then fucked off to England. Great, how fucking amazing that parenthood experience turned out to be. People should think twice before having a child. Things can go terribly wrong and you seem to be quite casual about rolling the dice and hoping that you don't fuck up as a parent. How would you feel if others looked at your son and said, oh that Chin Lam Toh shouldn't have started a family - just look at his son, if he had been a decent father, would his son be like that? Please - this is not a personal attack, you of all people should realize that parenting isn't a bed of roses, so why are you writing as if it is? What if you fall out with your son and he fucks off to another country the way I did, then who's going to fill the emptiness in your life then? Like I wrote in the article, if you feel dissatisfaction or emptiness in your life - then fucking fix it. A child is not going to fix the problems in your life for you - you fix your own goddamn problems. A child is not meant to make you feel better about your failures in life - you're so approaching the whole parenting thing the wrong way round. Good grief, you've learnt nothing from being a parent.

      I'm very disappointed in you CLT. You've written a lot on my blog over the years but this is utter bullshit from you this time.

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    7. LIFT I wasnt insinuating you should adopt a child. Sorry for not explaining clearly & you misunderstood!
      What i meant: many (not you) choose not to procreate but aren't entirely sure its the right choice as they worry abt regretting someday down the line. When others bring it up, they "doth protest too much" (ie claim so strongly they dont care, ironically showing how much they DO care).

      Some want to, but cant as they havent met the right person, resulting sometimes in "settling" for the wrong person while trying to beat their biological clock.
      I was making an impersonal observation about how socially complex the issue of human reproduction is, no offence intended.

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    8. The world is full of egoistic parents who had children just to avoid the prospect of "vague dissatisfaction and emptiness" later in life, who, when they find their lives still unsatisfactory and empty even after having kids, unleash their frustrations on their kids in a multitude of ways. Talk about being selfish bastards. It's not your children's damn fault for not curing the problem of emptiness in your life; they didn't ask to be born.

      Like Alex said, if your life is empty and unsatisfactory, go fix it. Having kids is not the answer. Having kids is a serious fucking undertaking; you don't do it unless you want them for their own sake and not to solve some personal issue you have. In fact, one shouldn't ever have children unless one is already leading a full and satisfactory life. That's the only way to ensure that your kids don't grow up in a shitty fucked-up environment, and that's just a necessary -- not sufficient -- condition to ensure a great childhood. A lot more goes into good parenting; those are merely the pre-conditions.

      I know it's very hard and painful for parents (like CLT) to accept that there are people out there who're completely content and happy with not having children and wouldn't have it any other way. I can only imagine him going "fuck those lucky bastards, if only I had the foresight back then like them, I wouldn't end up in this mess right now."

      But parents like CLT will never admit that having kids was a mistake, even if it very well may be.

      It's near impossible for these parents, who have essentially pawned their lives away and toiled day and night for decades to provide for a bunch of ungrateful brat, not to undergo some measure of denial and somehow even project their own sour grapes mentality on to others... just to avoid invalidating their entire existence. The amount of sunk cost in having kids is so staggering that it's just more comfortable and reassuring to just imagine, pretend, and hope that single child-free people are leading an empty existence.

      This is an inevitable form of post-choice rationalization/choice-supportive bias, especially when the decisions involve huge sunk costs and irreversible ramifications, like having children. Denial is a very powerful thing.

      I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who voluntarily chose to be single and childless who wishes they were married and had kids. Conversely, I've encountered many married people (mostly men) who have kids who seriously envied their single counterparts. And we all know why: they made a mistake, they realized that they're forced to live a life they didn't sign up for. Well too bad, "caveat emptor" is the way of the world, you reap what you sow.

      Imagining that the lives of those who chose differently are more miserable might provide you with some cold comfort, but it's not reality, and you'll just be fooling nobody but yourself.

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    9. CLT, Hmong Bong may have been harsh in his words but I do agree with him. If there's anything missing in one's life, this dissatisfaction or emptiness cannot be filled with children. Try having a dog instead.

      Here's what bothers me about people who try to use children to fill the emptiness in their lives: it is hard to maintain relationships as adults. For example, this guy at my gym (let's call him Mr H) did something stupid and I thought urgh, that's dumb. So when my buddy Alex the vet suggested he joined us for a game of ping pong at my place, I said no I'd rather not. We have pretty darn high standards for friends and if you do and say dumb things that offend and upset people, guess what? People will not wanna be your friend.

      However, with parents, they have such a hold over their kids, 100% complete control. When I was growing up - the rule was simple: even if your parents are in the wrong, they are always right because they are your parents. They still want to apply that rule today believe it or not and never ever admit they are in the wrong, making it virtually impossible for me to speak to them about anything. Even a simple conversation about the freaking weather turns antagonistic because they don't understand basic concepts of weather, they can't remember a thing from whatever geography lessons they had decades ago, they spout bullshit rubbish about the weather and I try to correct them and boom the fireworks begin, like i am this nasty monster for daring to correct my parents.

      I have a feeling that people who have crap social skills have children, so they have at least one relationship in their lives where they can be totally unreasonable and it doesn't matter because their child(ren) have little choice but to put up with the unreasonable behaviour of the parents. Yes I am speaking from experience. But that relationship can only last like 18 years cos if you are going to be an unreasonable parent, guess what? Once your kid's grown up, boom they're going to leave home. Then that emptiness is back.

      Where's the nearest pet store then?

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    10. CLT was just making observations about people. I don't it's fair to assume that he found having kids to be a mistake and is not wanting to admit it.
      Believe it or not, there are parents out there who actually cherish their children's existence and feel that they are gifts from God. These parents would not deny that it is exhausting and expensive and thankless, but they love the very fact that their kids exist. They make those noble sacrifices you scorned about. I don't know CLT personally, but I would not make the assumption that he would say, "fuck those lucky [childless] bastards, if only I had the foresight back then like them, I wouldn't end up in this mess right now." (Humong's words)
      It is suffice if we agree that parenting is hard to do. It is to be undertaken for the right reasons and only by those who have the means (financial and community support).

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  6. I love being my son's mama. He is my greatest love. The miracle of birth and life cannot be explained but only experienced.
    Having children or not is a very personal decision. No one should judge. I will only judge bad parenting and people who have kids who clearly do not have the means to do so.

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    Replies
    1. Di, just curious, does Papa also share a
      'special bond' with your son?

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    2. I hate to play the devil's advocate, but I think the bond is one way. Yes the mother feels the bond because of pregnancy - but we have no conscious memory until the age of at least 3 or so. Hence that's why I don't feel this magic, special bond with my parents. I think it's then a matter of nurture nor nature - nature doesn't create this special bond by virtue of the pregnancy process; no it is something that parents have to forge over the years.

      By that token, I think whether or not papa has a special bond with Di's son, well that depends on Mr Di's parenting skills.

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    3. Actually, I believe the bond starts in the womb. However, it has to be maintained throughout a child's life, even as an adult.
      Fathers can nurture that bond from birth. My husband does have a special bond with our son which is quite different. He works longer hours than I do, but he tries to spend quality time when possible with our son. He is very involved in his life. My son adores his father and looks out for his interests. Example, last night we ordered take out without my husband. My son insists that we included chicken fried rice because it was Daddy's favorite from that restaurant. I would not have ordered chicken friend rice because I don't like it. I believe he should eat whatever I ordered. LOL!
      Parenthood is a serious decision, and your job is never done. For us, one is enough!

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  7. Relevant article: https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-books-or-sources-for-raising-very-skilled-and-intelligent-children/answer/David-Schneider-5?ref=fb_page

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  8. Ah, this is something I can chip in, since I became a father last year. Have to say that most of the reasons listed are pretty far from why I decided to start a family. To cut it short, my wife and I simply felt that having children would complete our family unit. But not in the way that some might think. For instance, the idea of moulding my kid in my image, or having him fulfil my dreams or allow me to engage in some sort of redemption is really a ludicrous idea that I am nowhere close to entertaining.

    If you ask me what do I look forward to as my child grows, it is really to engage in a journey of discovery with him. Not just helping him discover but also self discovery for myself. I believe that my child will inspire and teach me as much as I aim to inspire and teach him.

    But then, I couldn't rationalize 100% why I have to have children in order to get these. You could always list out many other alternatives. Indeed I do intend to engage in many life fulfilling experiences. Having a child just happens to be one of them. That's all I can say if you ask me why I had one. Perhaps humans have more animal instinct despite our advanced thinking? That enough of us will feel the need to procreate and care for our young, and in so doing, ensure the survival of the species? Sometimes thats all there is to it. Although we see ourselves apart from animals, some areas of our physiology may just be in built that way.

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    1. Hmmm. Raymond, if I may ask you a cheeky question (one which I asked another friend who just had a baby). What if your child turns out to be difficult, say the child is disabled or plain stupid, keeps failing exams in school. Then what? Is this animal instinct to care for one's young going to override society's disapproval or disappointment in you as a parent in failing to produce a brilliant child that meets society's expectations?

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    2. It is. Actually what do you mean by society's disapproval or disappointment? I got no pretensions or assumptions about what my child must be. To start with, I am not of some noble bloodline for whom my descendants have to conform to some particular standards, lol. You know like in the past. So as long as he/she is of the right values, is honest, works hard, etc, etc, what he or she fails to do would not be for want of trying and would not come at the expense of hurting others.

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    3. OK you sound really reasonable - like my friend whom I asked the same question to. Thank you. You see, my friend whom I asked this question to was a really good student, high flying scholar who now earns big bucks. I did wonder how he would react if his kids turn out to be average or even below average, unlike him.

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    4. I think there's no easy way to motivate a child. That's why a lot of people can start with the best intentions but eventually fall into the "can't you be more like dad/mum" or "you gotta do well for the family" trap. Maybe in the years to come I will but I can tell you know how I hate that kind of thing. I think its so pathetic when I see parents trying to earn plaudits and brownie points on the back of their children's achievements. I'm sorry but if you were loser, it doesn't matter how great your kid does. You are still a loser. Lol.

      But it'll be a challenge to get any child to understand that look, if you have a God given talent in something, but you screw your potential, its your life that's gonna suck, not your Mum's or Dad's. Its gonna be hard to get that sort of thinking in, since the carrot and stick way is usually the most quick fix and tempting, but somehow its got to be done I guess.

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  9. My wife and I wanted to have a child, did not want to have a child, want to have a child, did not want.... You get the drift.

    There are tremendous costs to having a child. In my opinion, many "joys of parenting" stemmed from cognitive dissonance. Many parents ended up idealizing the concept of parenting and its merits/benefits in order to rationalize the many upheavals that children can bring into the couple's life.

    Joyful parenthood is a myth, or a myth that parents tell themselves to justify the profound challenges of raising children.

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    Replies
    1. Actually a factor that few parents want to acknowledge is MONEY. Oh yeah, MONEY can solve many problems. Take child care for instance, I am aghast at how many Singaporean parents use their maids for childcare when they can spend a lot more money to enroll the child in some kind of after school activity that will keep them enriched and occupied in a far more fulfilling way. Children also have a better childhood when they have a better quality of education - do you have the money to send your kids to the best schools in town or are you limited to the cheapest options?

      You see, so many parents spout bullshit about the power of love when really, love is all they can offer in the absence of money. I have one friend with 4 kids and her husband's salary doesn't go nearly far enough, so they talk about love a lot when facing financial problems - like deciding which child gets to go for the holiday camp and which child can't because they can only send one child to a holiday camp that costs a lot.

      People say money can't buy happiness - but the lack of money can cause you so much grief and stress. So Dave, how's your financial situation? Can you afford a child at this stage?

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    2. Well Alex i have given this some thought
      I say money is the glass, love is the wine,
      No glass, no wine.
      Thats the harsh reality, which actually is not so harsh once we accept it.
      Money isn't just about luxury or self aggrandization, its really about
      feeding, protecting and nurturing your family.
      Or in my case since i have not created my own family, having money prevents me from being. a burden to the family i come from.
      And whats wrong with that? I have certainly met many people with a bizarre anti money bias
      linked to their supposedly spiritual or humanistic beliefs - but thats a topic for another time

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    3. @Alex: Not sure why, but sometimes I cannot see certain posts and replies if I am reading the blog on my phone. I saw on my phone that you were asking about my financial situation and if I can afford a child at this stage.

      Short answer: No.
      Long answer: It really depends on what you mean by "afford".I certainly have the means to pay for child-related expenses. Of course, it helps to receive financial payouts from the Centrelink (i.e., social security in Australia).

      However, I will have to reduce/change certain "lifestyle choices" that my wife and I are currently enjoying. For example: (1) Fewer trips to the cafes/coffee houses for cuppa and cakes; (2) Fewer road trips around Australia when we feel like driving into the country areas; (3) limited trips overseas for holidays (or even back to Singapore for visits); (4) less eating out and more cooking at home.

      Having a child is expensive. If and when I do have a child, it's going to be a "planned accident" - an oxymoron no doubt. I am rather terrified of the lifestyle changes that I have to make. The costs are real!

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  10. Interesting post including the comments.
    As a teenager I didnt get it - so you grow up and have a kid, he/she grows up and has a kid and so on - the point ?
    What made me have a child was eventually maternal urges - the selfish gene. Hubby and I decided to wait 3 years after our marriage before thinking about kids, but by 2 years , I couldnt keep my hands off babies, to the point I felt like asking friends if i could baby sit their baby. And so 6 months before our planned period I found myself pregnant - not so much a failure of contraceptives as a failure to use contraceptives "accidentally" . My mom was like "what was the hurry?"

    Parenting has been tough, it involved a lot more than I thought it needed, it showed I was far tougher than I knew, but I am living every minute of it. Sounds cliche, but i really wouldn't trade a minute of it. Yeah, I have paid the price for it, but very willingly. I make no sacrifices, every time I put my child before me, is because I want to.
    They are growing up so fast, I would like to think we am doing a decent job of nurturing them , but only time will tell.

    But I still dont know the point :-), but personally I found this journey enriching.

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    1. Interesting Sundari, thanks for your comment. What do you think about the price you paid, the sacrifices you made? You see, my sister is a highly educated, ambitious career woman, then she had a baby and there is that balancing act of childcare, motherhood and one's career: I secretly think she would have done ten times better in her career if she had delayed having the child (or even not had any). Can you reflect upon the sacrifices you have made as a mother and comment please? Thanks ever so much.

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    2. Haha, my brother thinks just like you do. Honestly I am not that smart but yes of course career took a back seat, even my health. I have turned down promotions, travels anything that doesn’t give me flexibility. So financially I have been less productive in career and no time for proper investment portfolio. In a stressfull study environment like Singapore, it also meant a lot less me-time, lesser socialising and volunteering. Before kids I used to say there is no such as "no time", if it matters to you, you will make time. When the children are small, I felt genuinely there was no time, hard to schedule time. When I had a baby I knew it was going to be my number one priority. But what I didn’t know was it was going to be prioity 1 to 10. Every other priority was going to have to take in the baby. Now that they are older, I have made time for myself like I regularly to the gym, meeting friends, but interests have changed. Thinking of studying, but I probably am not as sharp as i was 20 years ago, but I know I have to get out of my comfort zone. I dont claim to have made best use of all my time, surely I have wasted plenty of time too, there is only so much I can use the children as an excuse.
      I dont like to call them sacrifices like that implies someway the kids are obligated to me. They were my choices, I know my children will grow up and fly away, leaving a yawning gap in my heart. But bringing them up has been really enriching, and if I have nurtured them to be well adjusted, strong, passionate independent persons, that will be my fullfilment . I hope fifty is not too late to see the world though...
      PS- Though we live in the opposite sides of the globe, my brother has been a great support . He has constantly been encouraging me to grow. I am sure your sisters value your support even if they don’t follow everything you say, it will be at the back of their mind.

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  11. As for the bond being both ways- ask a Indian wife. One in two will lament how her husband is a mamma's boy. Indian men will rarely do anything that displeases their mom.
    Forgive my stereotyping.

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    1. Hahaha! Sundari, being married to a brown guy, I should know! THAT bond has an entity of its own!

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    2. Mum's have this powerful bond with the kids
      It can magic or malignant depending on the person! Do you nurture ur kids, watch out for their interests & ask fairly for yours to be met?
      Or do u disregard their needs, or covertly exploit them for your own pleasure?
      U see this whole thing about 'not displeasing the mother'? I have her interests at heart.. thats different from pleasing her whims & fancies.
      Trouble though children who have been exploited still retain this misplaced sense of loyalty to the mum - bloody hell i know i do! So u end up dancing to the mums tune, at expense of your own life, your relationship with ur wife (who lets be frank, is your number one, especially if she bears u children. Ur mum needs her husband and her friends to provide that support. Can't come from the kids)

      A genuinely caring mum can only be a big asset
      to the in-laws
      A self centred one is unfortunately a liability

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  12. What a nice topic you have written. I agree with all the points you wrote - most of the reasons seem to be extremely selfish and self-centered in that they have children to feel better about themselves such as the superdad reason. Totally terrible.

    I doubt I will ever have a child to be honest, too much trouble and you are literally playing the lottery. Adoption is a better alternative to be honest.

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    1. Well Eugene, some parents do have the best of intentions, others are somewhat misguided but society seems to applaud anyone who has a baby. As for adoption, well, so many young children desperately need parents but people only turn to adoption if they can't conceive - it does seem like a lot of people want a create children for reasons like, "I want a part of me to live on after I die, the offspring must have my DNA - adoption wouldn't suffice". I do believe that in the battle of nature vs nurture, nurture is so much more important in shaping a person's life so adoption is seriously underrated.

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  13. Let me try and sum this up:
    Do not rush into parenthood for all the wrong and naive reasons.

    Well, it could be said for every single choice one makes.

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    1. Sorry if I come across as bitter but my bad childhood experiences were a result of my parents' lack of parenting skills - they were put under soooo much pressure not just to have a child but to have a son to the point where I don't think anyone questioned whether or not they were ready to become parents. That's why I get so pissed off when I go to a wedding and everyone starts putting pressure on the newly weds to have a baby - like hello? We're here to celebrate their marriage, it's not just about having babies you know.

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  14. I posted a similar comment in an earlier post but I think it is more relevant to this topic. I think that everyone who wants to be a parent should consider this question:

    If your only teenager child suffers from a brain disease and wants to be euthanised because he does not want to suffer from pain caused by the tumor. If he is not euthanised, he would experience continuous pains caused by the tumor for life and will never be able to do any outdoor activities, which he used to adore. Would you as a parent consent him to be euthanised?

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    1. Ruther, This question boils down to a dichotomy of "emotion vs reason". Emotionally i wouldnt want to lose my child & i desperately hope this never happens. But logically if he finds his life so meaningless that he has nothing left to live for (as he lost everything that gave him happiness) i would start by trying my hardest to understand his wish, and act accordingly from there, as long as its within the limits of ethics & law.

      LIFT sorry i made a mess of my previous comment which came off UNINTENTIONALLY sounding like "single child-free people actually want to be married with children", to which Hmong Bong turned around declaring that "married men with kids wish they were still single & carefree".
      Can i start over again? Back to the emotions vs reason paradigm, obviously its irrational & a BAD investment to have children, yet why is it the natural route taken by a majority except those few who really think carefully & made a conscious choice NOT to procreate?

      Because emotions trump reason, as can be seen in Brexit and Trump winning.
      Before discovering your blog i didn't see this contrast so clearly, but your articles give a startling perspective of topics muddled with confusion because of the chest-beating that comes along with feeling too much, at the expense of thinking calmly.
      From the City Harvest fiasco, to Sporeans' attitude towards their government, to our ridiculously stressful education system, i used to be part of the fray creating nothing but frustration & bewilderment in my life.
      After reading your blog Im now on the other side of the mountain where i see a different, bigger picture.

      So when you asked why people want children, only the smart ones (like Di) mentioned considering their financial resources & deciding to stop at one. Most of the answers from other readers who have kids go something like "cannot explain, it just felt right they make me happy i love them".
      All to do with emotions, but not reasoning.

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    2. @Chin Lam Toh, it seems that in your need to address your previous comment, you unintentionally imply that readers who said "it just felt right.. or... happy.." are not “smart”. The dichotomy between emotions and reason is arguably a false one. At the very least, emotions and reason are not opposites. Neither is always better nor worse. For example, emotions help us to discover what goals are worth pursuing (e.g., studying hard to get into a good university, so as to feel happy and a sense of achievement at the end).

      Emotions and reason reflect the two systems of the human mind that engages in adaptive functions (i.e., both are used to determine an appropriate response to an event). Pure reason can be an impoverished form of thinking and highly unrealistic.

      A quote I read somewhere: “If you can’t feel, you can’t think effectively because you can’t decide… All the logic and evidence in the world won’t change a person’s mind if he or she isn’t motivated to change. And motivation comes from emotion”.

      In other words, a person will need to ‘feel’ the need to change before he can decide to act on a change. And guess what, that ‘feel’ is an emotion-based response. Reason and emotions coexist. Decades of research in psychology and neuroscience have consistently debunked the idea that emotions and reason are separate or mutually exclusive entities.

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  15. Meh, fuck kids...cant stand baby crying and changing their nappies. Every time I hear a baby crying, I'd like nothing better than to smash their little skull against a rock.

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  16. Limped,thanks for this brilliant post. Lots of Singaporean women are pressured by society into thinking that being childless is a handicap. And many others have children because they have no other vision for their own lives. Your article gives me strength to think alternatively. Write on, my friend!

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