Interview with an IT gatekeeper: degrees, graduates and Google

Hello everyone! I see two of my posts on the issue of degrees and gatekeepers this year have proven to be extremely popular, so let's return to this theme and focus on the IT industry. Even though I have worked a contract for Google in 2014 in a marketing and promotion capacity, I do not have an IT background and thus I have managed to get hold of a very senior expert in the field who has plenty of experience as a gatekeeper in the IT industry as well as mentoring younger people just starting out in the industry. His name is Rob and I had many questions to ask him about this issue.

Do you have what it takes to work in IT?

Limpeh: Hi Rob, let's begin by looking at the news that Google has also moved away from just hiring people based on paper qualifications especially for technical roles. A reader of mine got very excited as he was under the impression that Google has leveled the playing field for him, that he will be treated just the same as a graduate from an Ivy League university. Now personally, I find that hard to believe having worked for Google - they are a profit making business who hire the very best experts in the industry, they are not the kind of company to start giving jobs to poor people from the inner city who don't have the right skills They are in the business of making profits, not doing charity by giving jobs to people who do not have the best qualifications for whatever reason. In fact, Google has been in the news headlines recently for just how little taxes they pay in the UK, so I certainly don't see them as a "level the playing field" kind of company. Even when such high-profile companies hire say a disabled person or someone from a disadvantaged background at a junior level, it is usually a PR stunt to demonstrate just how inclusive and caring they are. So let's try to understand what is going on at companies like Google: what can you tell us about the hiring process in companies such as Google please and why is it so different from elsewhere?

Rob: You see, companies like Google are not interested in leveling the playing field here, not at all: they have simply found a different way to test applicants to identify the very best candidates for the job. Now you have to remember what Google is, they are a big data company, this company collects vast quantities of data on everything and they index the web: such is Google search. They are so obsessive about this process that they they analyze their internal data in great detail too. So the way Google makes money is as an advertising outlet and the way they make that work so effectively by analyzing the vast quantities of data about the likelihood of a user clicking on an ad they place that appears alongside a Google search. Hence everything their business does involves recording every detail they can measure, analyzing it until they can find meaningful correlations and they do this with all of their internal processes as well, of course. That's why they are so much more than an effective search engine - they make sense of big data. 

Can you make sense of big data?

This approach extends to includes their recruitment process - they are a very big company, they have a lot of employees to collect data on and being Google, they have analyzed every single one of their employees to try to find meaningful correlation between their productivity (or failure) and their education backgrounds, their paper qualifications, their work experience, their interests and hobbies, their social backgrounds, down to every last minute detail. What they have found is that the graduate degrees of their employees are far less important indicators than everyone had originally assumed say ten years ago. So nowadays, Google uses the applicants' CV to create a shortlist of candidates that they want to consider for the role, but will base their decision entirely on the interview process and the candidates will be evaluated in great detail during the process. Your CV merely gets you through the door for the interview - you have to survive their intensive interview process to prove yourself worthy.

Limpeh: So a company like Google advertises for a position and of course, it is a desirable and prestigious company to work for, they will receive thousands of applications for every one position advertised. So how do they decide whose CVs make that shortlist to even be seen at the interview? Surely that still puts candidates from prestigious universities at an advantage over those from less well-known universities? They can't realistically interview and test all the thousands of applicants, can they? So if they were to reject a candidate for whatever arbitrary reason, then so what? They still have thousands of quality candidates to choose from, so how do they decide whom they invite to interviews?

Rob: The answer is that Google would usually know exactly what they are looking for and will have a method to sift through the many applications to identify the right candidates out of the thousands who have applied - that's what they do, they know how to make sense of big data; but if Google is favouring certain parts of the applicants' CVs, it is because they have statistical evidence that other employees with similar qualifications have performed well at Google in their culture. I can't say that for sure that, "Google favours graduates from Stanford" for example, that kind of information is classified within the HR departments of Google, but Google does have great relationships with universities like Stanford, so it won't come as a surprise that this great relationship may translate into some kind of statistical evidence of Stanford employees doing well at Google. It is not some kind of favoritism based on snobbery, but it is based on statistical evidence. Such is the way Google operates, along with others like Facebook and Youtube,

There is really only so much a good degree from a top university can tell you about the candidate, there is so much more to the selection process than just looking at paper qualifications and that is why interviews are so important. You need to sit down in front of the person and talk to them for a while, understand what they are like, see how they function - that is why Google and other companies like Google will probably have loads data to try to correlate the traits of their most successful hires. There was a rumour a few years ago that one of these top IT companies favoured chess players as a result of this kind of correlation and suddenly, everyone put down chess as a hobby on their CVs. You can't really predict what these companies are looking for in terms of the perfect personality traits, the best advice I can give you is to have a varied, well-balanced lifestyle outside university: do loads of sports, travel and see the world, be involved in your local community, have an active social life and the gatekeepers are interested in things like that to.

Are you a chess player?

Limpeh: So what kind of CV is likely to get you an interview with such a prestigious company then?

Rob: An honest CV to begin with! If you are the right person for the job, they will probably realize it. If you are still at the age when you're still trying to decide which degree you want and where you want to go for your degree, then follow your heart and do what you are passionate about. Do it in the best university that you can, so make sure you check the various league tables for the relevant departments. People like Google will know exactly what ranking your university's department is nationally and internationally, they are obsessed with data like this and inferring information from it. Record your real world experiences: work experience, internships, your travels, your hobbies, your personal projects - it doesn't matter what it is, do mention it on your CV because if you are fresh out of university, even a small project done for school can be a good indicator of what you are capable of.

Limpeh: What are they testing for during the interview process?

Rob: Now this depends on what job you are applying for. No two interviews are the same, a company like Google will have different kind of jobs and they all require different skills. Google will need all different kinds of talents and it really depends on whether you are what they need, what they are looking for at that time - they are looking to fill a position, not simply reward the smartest person who comes along. Who is to say who is the smartest person when there are so many ways to measure one's talents - so they default to what they need for that position. So to prepare yourself for such an interview, you need to understand what the job you applied for is and if you are not sure, then ask them questions about the role at the interview but always do your research first. If you haven't done your homework, then you are unlikely to be successful. They will present you with problems to solve and they will observe your approach very closely, to see what kind of problem-solving skills you possess, how you go about that process. It is not just about arriving at the right answer but how you go about it. They are interested in soft skills, not just paper qualifications.

Google wants to observe your problem solving skills during the job interview.

Limpeh: In your experience, do you encounter mostly people from top universities in your industry?

Rob: Yes and no... well, it varies. The IT industry is different in that you are more likely to find  people who have dropped out of degree-level education to follow their passions and many of those people have actually done very well for themselves without a good degree or a degree at all. Both in start up companies and in large companies like Google, I have observed this.You're simply not going to find a doctor who has dropped out of medical school working in an NHS hospital as a doctor - their training is a lot more stringent and rigid, compared to the IT industry. And of course, there are brilliant people in my industry who did get a degree from some of the best universities in the world.

Limpeh: Is this something to do with the way the IT industry evolves so quickly? Something that is all the rage in 2014 would have already become totally obsolete in 2016 because something new, something faster or better has already come along. Given that it usually takes three years to complete a degree, is that why any kind of degree in computer science is pretty much useless because by the time you actually receive that degree at the end of your three year course, what you have studied is already obsolete? Does the technology really evolve that quickly? Is that true?

When I was working at Youtube London HQ

Rob: A computer science degree is about the science of computing rather than about programming per se. Those fundamentals do not change that quickly, but the tools that you are using at the beginning of your degree may well been superseded by the time you have graduated and are looking for your first job. So a good computer science degree is never totally a waste of time. However, do you actually need a computer science degree to do a programming job? And the answer is shouldn't surprise you: no, you don't, not at all - many other degrees such as engineering degrees may give you just as good a grounding in this field. For some roles, you don't need a relevant degree or even a degree at all, as long as you have proved your passion and skill in teaching yourself programming outside of an academic environment. You can actually learn a lot by yourself, the best talents in this industry all learn this by themselves rather than in a classroom, they are the best innovators.

Limpeh: So let me put this to you: imagine if I am a young person with a degree from a university at the very bottom of the league table or a private university with ridiculously low entry requirements. How do I get a job with a company like Google? Is that even possible? Where do I get started? How do I prove myself as worthy as a graduate from MIT?

Rob: I don't know for sure. If it was that easy, if there was a formula to follow, then everyone would be doing it, but Google can only employ so many people and they will pick the best, the most suitable candidates. For a start, you need to be showing them the work that you have done outside university, internships, projects that you have done outside your degree programme. You need to demonstrate that you do possess tangible skills through these activities and that these skills are directly relevant to the job you are applying for. Apply for a job that you know you are going to be good at and you must have a reason to believe that you will be good at it, so that is really what you have to demonstrate. So you need to put the degree aside and prove yourself otherwise: that is the same for anybody who wants a job with someone like Google, you can't expect to be given a job based on your academic qualifications, every one of their employees has proven themselves above and beyond what was required of them at university.

Limpeh: At what age should one start proving oneself in IT? Should all kids be learning how to code from primary school or is that too young?

Rob: This isn't about what it takes to get a job with Google - you can have just a year's experience in coding and still get a job with Google. In general, I think that children even as young as those in primary school should be exposed to computer programming and how computers work because some of them will be fascinated by it and they will be the digital pioneers of tomorrow. All kids should try to code, most kids won't get very far with it though. It is like teaching kids sports, music or poetry, some kids will love it, others will not be interested but everyone should at least get a flavour of it and give it a go - it should be a part of every child's general education, to make children aware of the possibilities if they do have a gift for it. But let's be realistic - I don't think it should be compulsory for all the students.

Should children learn coding as part of their education?

Limpeh: So, is the playing field in IT more leveled because of the nature of the industry? Is it easier for young people without a degree from a top university to make it in this industry compared to say, banking or engineering?

Rob: Yes, because the tools for creating wonderful things are so cheap in computing compared to other creative industries. The fact is the laptops that we use cost a few hundred pounds and you can run whole businesses off it - you can't do anything in banking without being a part of a much bigger structure within the financial services industry. Likewise, you can't do much as a musician if you had just £400 worth of instruments and hardware. Other programmers have created so many tutorials open source frameworks and libraries that you can teach yourself everything you need to succeed in this industry - all from a relatively cheap, affordable laptop. Such is IT for you.

Limpeh: Given what you have just described to me, it sounds like the industry would be full of very brilliant people who have made it in the industry all by learning everything themselves, without bothering to go to university at all. So wouldn't it be better to enter the industry as someone who didn't even bother with university, a non-graduate, rather than someone who went to a lousy university at the bottom of the league tables? As a gatekeeper, when I see someone with a degree from a lousy university, alarm bells ring: why did you end up there, what went wrong? Why did you spend all that time and money on such a degree rather than just trying to strike it out on your own without a degree? If I had such a crap degree, I might even be tempted to hide the fact that I actually went to such a terrible university and try to pass myself off as a maverick genius who was too cool for school and smart for any university. The problem would be then how you would account for those three missing years on your CV. Sorry if that sounded really judgmental - you can take a boy out of Singapore but you can't take Singapore out of the boy.

Rob: I can't guess how Google's analysis of graduate school as an indicator of performance may be. Don't be embarrassed by not knowing what you wanted to do with your life at the age of 18 - most people's careers will take them around many corners before they know what direction they are heading. Most people's goals and aspirations change dramatically during their lives. So just because you decided to get a degree from a less desirable university doesn't mean that you can't decide to teach yourself something completely different later. It is okay to change your mind and unlike deciding to say become a doctor which will take about ten years, you can train yourself up to be a specialist your chosen field in IT relatively quickly and cheaply, thanks to the resources that are freely available to you on the internet. So yes, thanks to that, the playing field has been leveled to some extent - I suppose you could say that. I don't think (laughs) it was envisaged or intended to as a means to improve social mobility or to right whatever wrongs there may be in the world, but it is just so happens that it is possible to teach yourself a lot in IT. Not that any of it is easy of course, but compare that to medicine: you can't teach yourself to be a doctor. And once you have acquired the right skills, you prove yourself with your work and good luck to you. It is that simple and that's the beauty of it.

Nothing to do with social moiblity, just the way IT works.

Limpeh: So in theory, someone from a truly awful university like SIM can still get a job with Google?

Rob: Only if he manages to prove himself worthy. Anyone who wants a job with Google has to prove himself worthy regardless of what degree he has - but let me make this clear, it is not about charity, it is not about leveling the playing field, it is not about giving someone a chance, not at all! If you think you can get a job with Google on that basis, then you are wrong and you will be disappointed. In fact they have one of the world's most modern, sophisticated methods to identify the most worthy, credible candidates for the roles - that is why Google is one of the top companies in the world and they didn't get there by hiring random people they felt sorry for. In short, they don't hire idiots, that's not good for business. The skills you need to perform well at a company like Google are completely different from the skills you need to get a degree from a top university and that is what they test for. But make no mistake, their tests are rigorous, difficult and will identify whom the best, smartest, brightest talents are. It is a revolution in HR, we can learn a lot from Google's approach. They are the first to take this approach; in time, I'm sure many others will follow their lead.

Limpeh: It has been most enlightening, many thanks for sharing your insight about your industry Rob.

Rob: Thank you.