The biggest blind spot in the world.
Whilst I was so careful about covering up my knees and shoulders, there were plenty of women walking around town wearing very, very little. I even saw this young white woman in what I can only describe as transparent see-through lingerie outside a very expensive hotel and it was clear that she was a prostitute trying to snare her next customer there. We also visited the world's largest water theme park Aquaventure which was on the Palm Jumeirah, whilst there were very strict rules about how the men's shorts had to be modest and any form of nudity was strictly forbidden in the changing rooms, there were no equivalent rules for the women and I saw a woman with such a skimpy bikini going down a water slide that by the time she got to the bottom, let's just say everything was on show. She promptly rearranged herself and nobody said anything. When I was in Dubai Marina (a trendy, upmarket, expensive part of Dubai), you can't walk a few meters without seeing all these 'prostitute call cards' on the ground - these are all photos of white foreign women with a phone number. And wait, there's more. I love sharing my travel adventures on Instagram and I don't even have that many followers on my travel Instagram profile, yet the moment I shared photos of myself staying at an expensive hotel in Dubai - the prostitutes swooped in. One morning I turned on my phone to find over 50 messages from prostitutes offering my all kinds of services and this was through Instagram for crying out aloud. Is this how they find their customers? By looking at the latest posts of older businessmen in expensive Dubai hotels? I do regularly post stuff on Instagram when I travel to other countries of course but it was the sheer amount of attention I got from the prostitutes that shocked me. How is this legal in Dubai? More to the point, why is this ignored in Dubai if it is supposedly such a conservative, religious society? This is a far cry from Iran, where Mahsa Amini - a 22-year old Iranian woman was arrested and beaten to death by the morality police for not covering her hair. Boy, I would like to see how the Iranian morality police try to do their job in Dubai by enforcing Dubai's very strict laws that are broken by so many people there.
One set of rules for us, another set of rules for them.
I did this really touristy but super fun thing in Dubai - the desert safari. Oh it's highly recommended, the guide will take you out to the desert in small groups and you'll do various activities in the desert - I did this in the evening which included a dinner with entertainment. So I thought, how nice, good food in the desert and some local culture. Well the entertainment included a belly dance - technically speaking, this isn't from the local culture in the UAE. It is from Egypt and Turkey, a long way from Dubai. The belly dancer was wearing very little, it was the kind of costume that would make audiences blush in London or Paris but we were in Dubai. Oh it wasn't just what she was wearing, it was the kind of dace moves which involved thrusting her groin and bottom towards the audience in a way that was definitely not suitable for the children in the audience. It was nothing more than a sex show, a woman wearing very little gyrating her groin at the audience. As a gay man, I actually got quite bored with it as it was clearly aimed at the straight men in the audience but at least the food was good and I was happily eating away. In fact I ate so much that I felt I had to walk around a bit just to help with the digestion, so whilst the rest of the audience was happily watching the belly dance, I was took a little walk around the compound. This belly dancer then finished one of her routines and ran backstage for a quick costume change. I heard her giving instructions to her colleague backstage and they were speaking Russian (I speak Russian, of course). This belly dancer was a white Russian migrant worker, she was neither a local nor was she Muslim; by that token, the strict rules in the UAE don't really apply to her. The unspoken understanding is that if you're a foreigner, the authorities will close one eye and shut the other when it comes to what you do. As for gay people in Dubai, the rule I was told was never do anything with a local, never touch a Muslim, if you want to do something, do it with a non-Muslim foreigner behind closed doors and you would be left alone - there's a gay community in Dubai amongst the expatriates.
So do the rules actually apply? Only selectively.
Indonesia made the headlines recently when they passed a new law criminalizing sex outside marriage and there was much talk about it in the news, but in the UAE, there have always been very strict laws concerning adultery. This was highlighted in the case when a Norwegian woman Marte Dalelv was raped by a colleague in 2013, but was then arrested and prosecuted for having sex with a man she was not married to under the UAE's strict adultery laws. Dalelv was treated very harshly by the UAE courts as she was drunk at the time of the rape - whilst it is legal for non-Muslims to consume alcohol in licensed venues in the UAE, it is frowned upon when a woman does so, especially if she gets drunk in the process. Of course, this case sparked a huge international outcry over the status of women in the UAE and it took the intervention of the Norwegian government to get Dalelv out of jail and back to Norway. Needless to say, the man who raped her got away with it and such is the attitude towards Western women who do not conform to the strict laws on modesty - ie. if you want to be a liberal western woman by wearing revealing costumes and getting drunk, don't expect us to step in and help you when you get into trouble because you're asking to be raped and if you are raped, then we shall make an example of you to warn others women to behave. Now all that seems to be in line with what one expects of a strict Islamic country, but the contradiction is that this law only applies very selectively. In the case of Dalelv, this case was brought to the attention of the authorities after she made a report of rape to the police and asked the police to arrest her rapist. If it had been a case of consensual sex that happened behind closed doors in a hotel room, then the adultery laws wouldn't have been used against her. In this case, Dalelv was punished for being a woman who got drunk in a society which does not condone women behaving like that - but let's not judge UAE society based on just this case.
Meet Vince the American expat in Dubai.
I had a very interesting meeting in Dubai with a white American expatriate whom I shall call Vince (not his real name). Vince is a long-term resident of Dubai and over the years, he has worked with various government departments in Dubai before setting up his own company. Vince is the kind of guy known as a fixer - you want to do business in Dubai but can't wait six months for the government to issue the appropriate licenses? No worries, just call Vince and he will make sure that all the paperwork would get sorted by the end of the week after he makes a few phone calls to the right people. One thing he did tell me which surprised me was this, he has a wife and three kids but he also has his mistress. His wife is now older and pretty much a full time housewife taking care of their three children, whilst his younger Latina girlfriend is from Mexico and 21 years old. I asked him about adultery in the UAE since technically, that was a crime. Vince explained to me, "the rules are there, they exist but it's a question of enforcement. So the rules about adultery and gay sex is meant to show the world that they're such a religious state, but the truth is very few people actually get persecuted. There's a difference between having a mistress whom you visit discreetly and everything happens behind closed doors, nobody has any idea what the hell is going on. The authorities aren't going to break down every door to track every single citizen every hour of the day, that's not possible. So as long as they maintain this image to the outside world that they are so conservative and religious, you'll be amazed how many local Arab men regularly practice adultery, be it by having a mistress or three, or just regularly visiting prostitutes." I then asked about the women; after all, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Vince looked perplexed as I don't think he has never contemplated that point before. "I don't know, I don't really think much about what the local Arab women get up to in that aspect. Not much I suppose - those more liberal women who don't like these very strict rules have probably left the UAE to live elsewhere."
Censorship and VPNs in Dubai: window dressing?
So let's look at another example: censorship. In the UAE, you have fast internet but all adult content is banned, so you're not just talking about porn sites, you can't access dating sites like Tinder or Grindr. I can see why Grindr is blocked because gay sex is illegal in the UAE, but even Tinder is blocked as it was thought to encourage dating, promiscuity and even adultery. So what do most people do? They get a VPN to enable them to access such content on their phones and it's an open secret that most people do that, even those in government. So on this issue, Vince explained that no one is going to check your phone in the UAE, it's not like you're going to get a knock on the door when you're at home, minding your own business, only to find a team of police at your door demanding that you hand over your phone for a check. That may happen if you commit a crime, get arrested and part of the police's investigation may be to go through your phone but most people would never be in that kind of position in the first place and thus they are quite happily having forbidden or illegal content on their phones and laptops. But it is not like only criminals or those intent on viewing porn using VPNs in Dubai, you might know that you can only send Whatsapp messages and voice notes in the UAE but you cannot make or receive calls on Whatsapp there. that is because the telecoms market in the UAE is dominated by two major players (with significant government control) who would rather you paid for those calls on one of those networks rather than use your apps like Whatsapp to make calls - thus they just blocked that function on Whatsapp but guess what? You can get around that by using a VPN and that's so straight forward and easy that even children in the UAE are familiar with the use of VPNs. Thus on the surface, you have a government and society who are willing to block and censor content you can access on the internet in the UAE, but on the other hand, you have a society (including senior government figures) who are regularly using VPNs to dodge that censorship. This begs the question: why bother with that kind of censorship in the first place then if it is not effective and nearly impossible to enforce then? It is nothing more than window dressing.
The law of unintended consequences.
When you block and ban so many things on the internet, you force a lot of the activities into areas where they really shouldn't be. A good example of that is prostitution: in a city like London, there are adult websites and apps where you can arrange to meet a prostitute and no one is going to accidentally stumble unto such a website unless you specifically would like meet a prostitute and use their services. However, I was not at all looking for services like that in Dubai - I am a gay man for crying out aloud but I was bombarded with ads from pimps and prostitutes in Dubai because I was posting pictures of myself staying at an expensive Dubai hotel. Instagram is not banned nor censored in the UAE, but this meant that many of these more adult content for prostitutes and their services was forced onto a more mainstream platform that everyone could access with ease in Dubai. Now I'm no prude, I simply roll my eyes and delete the many messages that I received everyday in Dubai from the prostitutes and pimps - I treat it like a minor inconvenience but really, I don't think the UAE authorities had anticipated this as they had forced sex workers onto Instagram. Now that's something that wouldn't happen at all in a place like London, sure there are plenty of prostitutes in London too but they don't try to use Instagram to try to find customers. At least it is kept a G-rated, child-friendly social media platform where you will not be bombarded with messages from prostitutes all the time. Thus even those who are not looking to pay for sex in Dubai are exposed to this all the time if they happen to use Instagram. Likewise, the streets around Dubai Marina are full of sex workers' call cards. These were so common in London back in the 1990s but nowadays they have mostly disappeared as it's all done online but a young child could walk down the street in Dubai Marina and quite easily pick up one of these prostitutes' call cards - that is at least something that's far less likely to happen in London. The irony is that Dubai is the city with all these strict, draconian laws but you are far more likely to stumble upon things like that there than in London.
Amsterdam vs Dubai: same but different
Allow me to compare Amsterdam to Dubai - I picked Amsterdam as it is probably the most liberal city in Europe (possibly the world) when it comes to all matters regarding sex and sexuality. At least the laws there reflect that, you pay tax when you consume the legal drugs and the prostitutes have to submit a tax return on their income. There's no contradiction or hypocrisy when it comes to the way the Dutch are liberal. The government and the people are on the same page in Holland - a liberal society elected a liberal government and thus the laws reflect that relationship. In the UAE, it is very different - there is no democracy, no elections. On top of that, 89% of the population there are expatriates (like American Vince) who bring with them their values and social norms from another country. People like American Vince have no intention of changing his way of life in Dubai, he is just going to find ways and means to bend and break the rules there. So it is not even like the 11% of local UAE population get to vote for a party that may alter the status quo by introducing more liberal laws, they don't even get a say in the way they are governed and most just accept that if they don't like the way things are in the country, they can always leave as changing the status quo is next to impossible. Thus you have this bizarre situation where the rulers of the country impose these really strict rules that most people find a way of avoiding and the authorities are quite happy to look the other way in many cases. On one hand, I find the contradictions all too hypocritical but on the other hand, these bizarre contradictions on the ground is at least far better than the situation in places like Iran where a woman can be arrested and beaten to death by the police for not covering her hair properly, that will never happen in Dubai where women can wear what they want in public as if they were in Europe or America. So no, it is not perfect, but it could be a lot worse. But what do you think of these contradictions? So am I judging Dubai unfairly, or do I simply not understand how their society works? Please do leave a comment below and many thanks for reading.
Epilogue: American Vince's sleazy story about his 21 year old mistress
I do get to meet some very unusual people on my travels but Vince has got to be one of the more larger than life characters. He's an American guy in his mid-50s, he's loud and brash, he brags about his wealth and his connections, he even talks about his 21 year old mistress. I found this all rather unnerving of course - look, I can assure you that I'm no prude, I'm a gay man but I never talk about my personal life when at work. It is called being professional - I believe in keeping work and play separate. But why did Vince steer the conversation in this direction then and risk making me feel uncomfortable talking about it? Did he perhaps think, "I'm so rich and influential, I can talk about all these things and you're supposed to just smile, nod politely rather than pass any judgment because you need my help to do business in Dubai!" Well if he did that, then there's an element of him showing of, it is a display of his dominance in that business relationship. It is a rather nasty thing to do, it was nothing short of him farting or picking his nose to make me feel uncomfortable and see if I would react. The other possibility was that he might have sensed that I am a gay man (I never hide my sexuality, I just didn't raise the topic when I was in Dubai but I would never lie about it). Thus perhaps that was his way of saying, "I have just divulged something that is very personal because I do trust you, so that's your cue to tell me something personal in return by admitting to me that you're gay, then we can take our trust to the next level. If we are going to do business together in Dubai, then we need to trust each other." But no, I didn't take the bait because I wasn't sure that was his intention. At that moment, I just wasn't sure what he was trying to achieve by sharing that information about his mistress in Dubai and it wasn't the kind of topic one would normally discuss in a business meeting. So I simply asked him if he has learnt any Spanish from his Mexican girlfriend and Vince said no, "she speaks English very well." I then said, "well you shouldn't squander this great opportunity to learn some Spanish from her, especially if you're going to be working with a Latin American company like us." He just smiled and said, "okay Alex I'll certainly bear that in mind."
Dubai is a really weird country to me, did you say that 90% of the country is foreign? What percentage is high skill vs low skill? As in bankers and engineers vs construction workers and taxi drivers? If it's heavily tilted towards the rich, I have no idea why they keep their draconian laws considering the rich locals and foreigners are breaking them all the time.
ReplyDeleteAs for Vince, I have met Americans like that on vacation who talk to my parents. It's almost always an American who divulges that much information. I think they're just bragging, and somehow I suspect they are new money because old money is way too polite to admit to having a younger probably less educated mistress to a total stranger.
Aaah if I may correct you there - Dubai is a city and the United Arab Emirates in the country. So you should have said "Dubai is a really weird city to me" or a really weird place, but not a really weird country. 89% of the country is foreign and there are no statistics available on the split between highly skilled (Vince the American) vs lowly skilled (Indian construction worker) workers in the UAE, but most estimates agree that it is approximately 1/3 white collar 'Vince the American' vs 2/3 blue collar construction workers amongst the foreigners in the UAE. Taxi drivers have a much, much better life there than construction workers as taxis are all air-conditioned whilst summer temperatures are unforgiving in the desert heat in Dubai and construction work goes on throughout the summer months. The 2/3 lowly paid migrant workers are super law abiding as they need to keep working in Dubai to feed their families back home, but it's people like Vince who break the laws routinely and don't really care as he is practically above the law.
DeleteAs for why Vince told me what he did, go figure - I still don't know. That is why I am talking about it here; he is ridiculously rich of course and I'm still shaking my head when I recall that meeting. I had to change a lot of details to mask his real identity but I suspect that you're going to find a lot of people just like Vince in Dubai.
Oh I forgot about the UAE because Dubai is such a large city with its own laws it might as well be a country onto itself. 2/3rds is a huge amount of the population! Like I don't know who the conservative laws are even pandering to. At least in Singapore there is a large middle class population, some of whom are Christians, which is why gay marriage isn't legal there. It could be a percentage of the 10% of locals where there are still very old and religious conservative people. I'm not surprised about Vince because there are rich people who flout the laws all the time elsewhere, usually related to drug laws in more liberal countries where adultery and prostitution are legal.
DeleteBy the way, I'm a little baffled about the prostitution in Dubai because how did these people get a work visa? Titus Low can't simply get a work visa to live in Canada to do OnlyFans work, and Canada is way more liberal than Dubai. I'm also surprised when it comes to prostitutes in Singapore as well, since most of them don't look local.
I think maybe Vince thought you're a dude so you won't judge haha.
The UAE is split up into 7 different emirates (or states, like in the US) and Dubai is not just a city but the capital of one of the emirates. As for the conservative laws, you have to understand that there's no democracy, no elections, no congress, none of the political references we have in the West apply there. So if the Emir (ruler, from the royal family) wishes to build a golden statue of himself tomorrow, he snaps his fingers and it shall be done. No need to care what the voters think as there are no elections or popularity polls to think about. So the ruling emirs just make the rules they want, even if they are nonsensical or ridiculous - like they he wanted to ban chocolate tomorrow, he could without giving any kind of justification. That's why the laws are ridiculous, they are not properly enforced and they make no sense in light of modern Dubai today.
DeleteThe prostitutes in Dubai are illegal immigrants - it's very easy to enter Dubai as a tourist and overstay your visa. Or they simply enter Dubai, Dubai offers many countries (including Russia) a 90-day visa on entry, no questions asked. So the prostitutes can either just overstay their tourist visa or leave before 90 days are up and re-enter Dubai as a tourist. These prostitutes are in Dubai as 'tourists' not as whores in the eyes of the government. They don't pay tax, they get no protection from the police, they are in a dangerous and precarious situation. As for Titus Low, Canada will NEVER give a porn star a visa to do porn work there as that's political suicide. Working visas are given out to doctors and nurses, not porn stars. His best case scenario is to arrive in Canada as a tourist and then overstay, become an illegal immigrant and just do porn whilst keeping a very low profile in Canada. But if he is gonna do that, he can do that anywhere, even Dubai. But even in the UK, we have a thriving porn industry but we would NEVER give out a visa to a porn star to do porn work here - no, that's political suicide. Any government minister who approves that would be shooting themselves in the foot (or the head). It has got nothing to do with being liberal, it's got to do with, "will this make me look good to the voters or would it invite ridicule?" Hence there's no country in the world that will give a porn star a work permit to work in porn, they have to find loopholes to make it work. In the US for example, you can get a work contract as an employee from a major adult entertainment company and they sponsor your work permit - but in that case, you go down the same route as an engineer or an IT specialist getting a work permit sponsored by your employer. It can be done in the case of some big names if it is worth the employer's while to spend that much money doing it properly like that. But self-employed porn stars like Titus Low? Forget it. Never.
As for the nationality of the prostitutes in Dubai, they tend to be from Russia (along with other places like Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Ukraine, Romania, Moldova) and other poorer Eastern Europeans/central Asian states. In Singapore, the vast majority are from China, with a small number of others from places like Indonesia and the Philippines. All of them are illegal immigrants of course, Singapore would never give out work permits or residency permits for sex workers like that.
DeleteOkay I get that the laws don't make sense because there are no checks and balances. As long as the economy is ticking along and taxes are collected nobody will enforce some of their more draconian social laws. I have no idea who wants to live in such a country even as a rich person when there are other places which can act as a "playground for the rich" with more liberal laws like Singapore, Hong Kong, or even Monaco.
DeleteOh wow, illegal immigrants. That must be very hard to find a landlord to rent to them unless they stay in hotels or hostels. That's a very precarious existence indeed. Though Singapore doesn't seem to have much sentiment against illegal immigration so I doubt the police would raid a brothel unless there was a case of modern day slavery.
Don't forget, the taxes in Dubai are super low - there is no personal income tax and businesses pay very little taxes. There is no GST/VAT as well so people are happy to live and work there as nobody likes paying taxes. People just shrug their shoulders when it comes to the laws and think, meh they don't really enforce the laws so just ignore it. Then why bother having the laws then? As for prostitutes and housing, they don't get on a flight from Moscow and come to Dubai looking for work as a prostitute. They are lured there by people smugglers who then put them up in apartments that the pimps have rented. You do realize this is indeed modern day slavery and these prostitutes have an awful life, serving many customers a day against their will - whether they are in Singapore or Dubai, few of them are willingly doing it as an easy way to make money. They have no choice and some do it out of poverty/desperation, others are simply put in a horrible position where they cannot even run to the police in a place like Dubai as women have so few rights there - a prostitute might be thrown in jail for a long time for a whole long list of offences. But does the government care? No, they simply look the other way and ignore the plight of these women.
DeleteOh so it's a tax haven and that's what lures in the highly paid white collar professionals. Still I'd never work in Dubai, but then again I am a woman so it doesn't benefit me to compared to other countries.
DeleteOh so you're saying the prostitutes in Dubai are in a similar situation to the migrant workers we've been hearing on the news who died building Qatar's stadiums. That is a bad situation indeed, and like the construction workers the middle Eastern government likely doesn't care.
The status of women is much lower in Dubai than in the West. Given the way Western/foreign women are allowed to walk around town wearing practically nothing, it just goes to show that white/foreign women are seen as sex objects for men to enjoy. I was just shocked when I saw a woman in lingerie in the hotel lobby of a very expensive hotel and I was like whaaaat? I know it's hot but did you lose your clothes at the pool or something or what? Why are you walking around in your underwear like that? But that's somehow 'tolerated' and I am struggling to find out why - women are either oppressed by forcing them to wear all kinds of head scarves/hijabs/niqabs to cover everything, or exploited when they are on display for men to look at (like that belly dancer). I'm not comfortable with either given how I respect women.
DeleteProstitution is illegal but tolerated in so many countries in the world. It's one of those laws that make no sense. In many poor but religiously conservative countries, women are forced into sex work but it is technically illegal - so it opens the door for corruption. If a policeman arrests a pimp or a prostitute, they just bribe the police and then the police makes a lot of money through bribery. It's a terrible situation and the Dutch have the best solution by legalizing it, that's so much better than tolerating it by turning a blind eye to it like in Dubai.
Does that mean there are very few professional women expats in Dubai? Come to think of it in Singapore there are many male expats who work in either finance, tech, or at oil refineries. There are much more female expats who work in tech or academia nowadays in Singapore, but probably not as many as the men. I'd imagine Dubai has even less female expats given the draconian laws there. Did you meet any white collar women in finance while you were in Dubai Alex? What was their experience working in a country which doesn't give women as many rights as the west?
DeleteYeah I heard in the Netherlands most of the prostitutes aren't even Dutch, but also from poor Eastern European countries like Romania or Moldova. But at least they can't get thrown into jail and can go to the police.
It's not unusual but women face some prejudice rather than discrimination in Dubai - it's the kind of sexism whereby women are perceived as either wives & mothers or whores & mistresses rather than professors, engineers and business leaders. That would have been the case in the USA say in the 1950s and 1960s but we're seeing that today; it's the role of women in society that's out of date with the modern world. So for example, Akila the restaurant manager at the hotel was a woman and she's an expat, but it's that kind of role where women are allowed to work in. In all my meetings, I only had one meeting with a woman (who was from the UK) working there in a senior role, the rest were all men and take going to American Vince's office for example; the meeting was with him, the people who met me at reception and brought me my coffee were all women. So women are doing the more junior roles whilst the big bosses are all men - like I said, think America in the 1950s. It would be challenging of course for a woman to thrive in that kind of environment, it's not impossible, it's just harder than say in Amsterdam, London, New York or Sydney.
DeleteWow that is very out of date. I take it it's because the local women have very little rights the country isn't going to suddenly change with an influx of foreign women. Singapore sometimes feels that way, but only with the older generation in their 40s and 50s. In America one thing I'm always surprised about is if there is a male PhD student who has children during their studies with a stay at home wife. I feel like my stipend is barely enough to pay for rent, food, and a car loan, let alone support a spouse and child that I wonder why anyone would deliberately impoverish themselves for 5 years while being extremely busy. Especially the stay at home wife who chooses to be in this arrangement instead of working. Then I realized for some women they think that being married to a future PhD holder is the best they can do, and that when their husband does graduate they'll be making so much more that it's worth it. But for me it's like, why not focus on your own career? Why endure so much poverty because you think your husband has a better shot of succeeding than you do? But because of how bleak some job prospects are for certain female dominated majors, some women just don't feel they have a future where they can be earning a decent salary and will settle for marrying a man with better prospects. The women who usually do this come from a working class background themselves. A girl from a middle class or wealthy family would be raised never to settle like this. Like women's rights in the west are great and all, but it doesn't seem that evenly distributed by social class.
DeleteHi Amanda, good grief, older generation?! I am 46! The way I see it, it's not a question of age per se but whether you're left/right wing, Republican/Democrat that affects you views on various social issues such as the role of women in society. But you know me, I'm totally liberal/progressive on the social spectrum and that's got to do with my beliefs and identity, not my age.
DeleteI ain't kidding, I met a lot of Singaporean men in their 40s and 50s who don't even think female engineers can win a paper aeroplane contest without male help. But yeah, it's nothing to do with age and everything to do with internal politics. The men I met with backwards views have never lived and worked outside of Singapore and have mom's and grandmother's who are just stay at home wives. Meanwhile you have studied and worked in the UK and a bunch of other countries so you have a different view. Also your mom and sisters work, and you're gay so in a relationship things are more equal.
DeleteBtw, in America some women are questioning whether it's still rude if a man doesn't pay on the first date. Their argument is "if it was a gay couple going on the date then who would pay? The person who picked the restaurant?" Actually who does pay Alex? The richer one? The older one?
But is that sexism that you encountered in Singapore a function of age? Cultural or political factors? Would you encounter the same kind of sexism amongst male Singaporeans younger than you or are those under 30 somehow cured or immune from this kind of toxic sexism? If we're in a society like Singapore where men are sexist, then this kind of men learn such attitudes from others around them - as you've pointed out, I've spent more of my life outside Singapore than in Singapore so if my dad said something sexist, I would say "that's bullshit" rather than allow him to influence me. When I met my husband, we went Dutch on the first date. I thought that was cheeky of him as he earned more than me then but I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. Today I went for a drink with a friend, he had a glass of wine (£13) and I had a hot chocolate (£5) so we could have either split the bill (£9 each), paid for our respective drinks but since he had the more expensive item, he paid the whole thing and I just said thank you.
DeleteI think it's more common among older people, but like you said it's probably culture. The younger men grew up watching Hollywood movies and tv shows like Game of Thrones with strong independent women. In America it's more of a rural vs urban divide. Even today young men in very rural areas aren't that kind to women, while older men in New York city are.
DeleteLol yeah with gay couples there isn't much of a tradition so you can write your own rules. I have a coworker who recently broke a pot and had to spend $50 to replace it, but because money is tight he felt anxious spending that money. His boyfriend who works in the oil industry and makes 6x what he makes offered to just buy him the pot, but he said "no I don't want your $50 pot!" because he insists on financial parity in the relationship. But even as a woman I don't like letting guys pay for things, even though I'm constantly told "if he doesn't pay, he doesn't love you."
Lol that's a very nice friend of yours. I would've just gone dutch. But some of my friends are like "you can just get the next thing."
It has got to do with your upbringing - the key thing about the younger generation is the internet enabling you to consume media from a much wider range of sources and making your own choices about what your cultural influences are. But when I was a child, we didn't have the internet and a lot o what we saw, read, were told etc was controlled by the government. Then you also have to consider the role of religion - if someone is brought up in a religious family, that can have a massive impact on their attitudes towards women and goodness me, all religion hate women. Most religions find a way to oppress women and I struggle to find a religion that actually empowers women - religion is the enemy of feminism as it always pushes women into the role of child bearing, thus cutting them off from further education, economic empowerment and independence. I always roll my eyes when I see religious women who swallow this kind of anti-women doctrine in the name of "oh I am so pious and faithful, look at me, I'm such a good person." Duh.
DeleteWell that friend did ask me out, so he felt obliged to pay. And I know he earns more than me, so I gladly let him do it since the waiter brought the bill along with the credit card machine.
But as for gay men and money. You see everything - there isn't one set of rules that applies universally to all gay couples. I see gay couples where both parties are very rich, I see gay couples where both parties are poor. To be honest, financially mixed couples are rare (ie. 1 rich, 1 poor) as that's just a source of conflict. Rich guy wants to go to see his rich friends, but afraid what the poor boyfriend might do in such a situation - would the poor boyfriend feel intimidated or uncomfortable? Poor boyfriends wants his rich boyfriend to meet his parents but worries how the rich boyfriend will judge the working class poor parents? Sure there are relationships where a rich older guy gets a younger toy boy but that's actually quite rare. More rare than you think even in a place like London.
DeleteI never understood the reason why religions were so obsessed with children, then I realized that back then a bigger population meant a larger economy. Nowadays people think reckless expansion is bad for the environment and creates a welfare-dependent underclass. Yeah it always surprises me when I meet women who are very religious but don't support other women, while wanting to be "the girlboss" who only rules over men. It sounds like some serious internal misogyny. I usually observe it among women who only derive their high social status through being the child of or the wife of a rich man, rather than a self-made woman.
DeleteLol that coworker said that recently his boyfriend's parents and family friends are going on an expensive vacation in Europe, and offered to pay for him to come along. But that coworker said no because he doesn't feel comfortable taking their money. At least this financially mixed situation is only temporary, as my coworker will eventually finish his PhD and work a high paying job in industry, but yeah like you said it's a potential source of conflict. I'm surprised London doesn't have more financial mixing, but then again it's a big city and the rich people will probably only pick spaces where they hang out with other rich people, like a tennis club or art gallery, and vice versa for poor people who hang out at the local pub. So there's probably not much of a chance that a bus driver is going to start dating a rich banker who frequents their bus route.
You have to see it as a competition between the religions - let's take Northern Ireland for example, the Catholics are desperately trying to outbreed the Protestants in a generation or two. You see, Northern Ireland was carved out, taken away from the Republic of Ireland because it was majority Protestant 100 years ago. But if the Catholics there kept having 5 or 6 children whilst the Protestants had 1 or 2, then eventually they will outnumber the Protestants, removing the justification for Northern Ireland to remain in the UK. In Singapore for example, the Chinese are horrified at the thought of Malays increasing from 15% to 20%, then 30 + etc if they keep having 6 children, so the government there import more Chinese people from China to balance the numbers out so Malays stay at around 15% no matter how many children each Malay family has in Singapore. I'm so cynical about religion and what they do to women. Oh and a rich banker will use Uber or drive, s/he wouldn't take the bus.
DeleteOh in America white people are also worried that black people will have more children than them, but these people don't usually work in politics. Singaporeans like to tell me that the government doesn't provide child subsidies like the UK does simply because most of the money would go to working class Malay families rather than middle class Chinese ones. Y'know surprisingly I grew up around very liberal Christians and Muslims. And the reason why I turned atheist wasn't that much to do with social conservatism, and more to do with me not being able to reconcile that we have a loving God watching over us when bad things happen all the time. Like why do pedophiles even exist? It just felt too random to me. Why did you turn atheist? Did it have anything to do with not being accepted for being gay?
DeleteReally? In Manhattan even rich bankers take the subway, but that's only because the streets are so narrow. West London probably has more space for roads and parking since it isn't an island.
Oh yeah the Singaporean government has ways to make sure that the money is spent on richer Chinese families - so for example, they pour money into education and good schools tend to have a much lower percentage of Malay students, so they receive plenty of government money. So the system is seen as meritocracy, ie. we reward the good students who have earned this, but really, it's keeping the rich rich and the poor poor, because it is the poorer kids from the terrible schools that need the most help but they're denied that. As for why I turned aethist, you have to go back to when I turned religious in the first place. You know what my childhood was like - I was unloved, in a working class family where my parents were too busy arguing with each other to care about me and I had a hard time fitting in at school. I was so desperate to feel some kind of love from anyone, anything, any source so when someone told me Jesus loves me, God has love for me - I went for it because I was lonely, desperate and I needed something to fill that void in my empty life. I didn't believe in God because I was convinced by the doctrine but rather, I was this poor, pathetic, loner with a desperate need to experience some kind of love. Hence I became a Christian and when I became an adult and sorted my life out, it was only then that I started asking questions and I was shocked at how I embraced something I didn't understand (and now don't accept) out of sheer desperation because I was so lonely and desperate to experience love. I never had any love from my parents and thus the concept of God loving me was really nice at that time.
DeleteHmm, for me growing up religion was never about "God loves you" but more about "God maintains law and order in this world, and you'll go to hell for being an atheist." It was the stick rather than the carrot in my case. Wow you must've been very desperate for love to believe someone you've never heard of who has complete power over your life loves you even if that life is miserable. So basically you fixed your life, escaped poverty, learned how to get love from actual people, then realized you didn't need God? What was that like coming out as atheist to the people around you? My mom didn't take my atheism very well, but then again she uses religion and prayer to absolve herself of any responsibility of sins she commits.
DeleteWell yes, life didn't suck as an adult - I moved away from Singapore, I became a lot more successful in many aspects of my life in Europe and I'm not saying that things are perfect but it is a far cry from the way I felt as a child. Let's take a classic example of an angry, isolated teenager thinking, "nobody understands what I am going through, nobody understands how I feel" and then someone comes along and says, "Jesus is your best friend and he understands exactly how you feel, just talk to him, open your heart to Jesus simply by praying." And of course, prayer is a very one-sided conversation where you are literally talking to yourself and even that filled a gap in my life as an adolescent and that's why I totally embraced religion then as I did't have people I could talk to like that - I felt that I trusted no one, I respected no one, I hated everyone and that's why religion was so comforting. It was easy to put my faith in Jesus when ordinary humans like my parents have let me down. But I did what my mother did - I invented a version of God in my head who was my best friend, who understood me, who would talk to me and be there for me. That's what desperate poor people who have nothing resort to - they create a version of reality that suits their situation and it helps them sleep better at night. My mother is still very religious but she has learnt one lesson though - never get into an argument with me because it ends with, "I'm educated, you're an idiot, I'm right, you're wrong, don't even embarrass yourself by trying to tell me what you think as you only spout rubbish, so save some face and shut your mouth." I know this sounds horrible but I really don't give a damn what she thinks or if she's upset or whatever, I don't give a damn. We're not close anyway.
DeleteWow you have a very different religious experience than I had. I don't want to sound too callous because some people genuinely believe in Jesus being their best friend, but isn't it a little exploitative to give someone an imaginary friend to talk to in order to come to church? The religious experience I had was extremely different, it was just "God sends bad people to hell and good people to heaven." There was no encouragement to talk to Jesus or whatnot, prayer was more of being thankful for things. In that sense Christianity was more like a supernatural form of a government in the afterlife rather than a source of love and affection. But then again I grew up with affluent Christians whose lives weren't that miserable and hopeless, they only turned to religion for morals and to console themselves of their fear of death. Same applied to the liberal Muslims I encountered.
DeleteHi Alex,
ReplyDeleteI've just popped in to check on your posts again. I'm always amazed by how much you can talk.
Interesting take. It's a juxtaposition of concepts in Dubai(?). The power of money is really something.
A question... the IT industry in UK is flourishing, especially in AI and software development. How's the ROI like if a local Singaporean decides to head over for IT roles?
Rgds,
S
Did you think that a British IT/AI firm would hire someone who was stupid, useless, inexperienced and unable to pull his weight in the company? Of course not. Even if someone like that got as far as the interview stage, he would be eliminated at that point as no company (regardless of the industry) would want to hire someone that useless. But if you do have something to offer these companies, then great but let me point out something painfully obvious to you: in a city like London, we still have people doing terribly low paid work. We're talking about cleaners, delivery drivers and other people who are struggling to make ends meet in London - why aren't they working in IT and AI, especially software development then? Oh it's because they're uneducated and stupid, they don't have any relevant skills or experience to work in such roles. So why aren't these lucrative roles in IT/AI being filled by locals then? Again, it boils down to the individual. Are you brilliant or useless?
DeleteYeah, you're right, Alex. It boils down to the individual. I didn't phrase the question properly.
DeleteWhat should be said is - If I am average with decent social skills. Would it be worthwhile to try by overcompensating using hard work?
Hi there, I work in A.I for academia, and am interviewing for A.I roles in industry in the US right now. Unfortunately one can't simply "work hard" to succeed at A.I because people are paid to come up with an algorithm that uses the least amount of time, memory, and data. If you work twice as many hours there is no guarantee your code will work twice as fast or use half the resources, because an algorithm that works twice as fast uses vastly different underlying concepts than a worse algorithm. In that sense we are comparing ideas rather than hours worked to calculate pay. For certain jobs in software engineering like making websites or digitization then working twice as many hours means you have coded twice as many webpages and/or digitized twice as much systems. In this case yeah you can make up for a lack of good ideas with hard work. But this job is vastly different than being an A.I expert and pays less, but still pays a decent amount. If you want to go so niche that hard work truly pays because nobody wants to go into that field, you can pick up an obscure and old programming language that the banks still use only because their systems cannot be taken down that they can't simply recode everything in a modern language like python. I actually have a friend who graduated with a 2.5/4.0 GPA that works for a big bank upgrading their systems everytime Microsoft pushes out a new software update. Sure he isn't paid that much, probably paid slightly above the US average and actually below average for a software engineer. But he doesn't have to be nearly as creative or "genius" as the quantitative finance coders who develop A.I algorithms to trade stocks in the same building.
DeleteWell Amanda, this is an example of how good advice can become incorrect, misleading or inaccurate when taken out of context. In the UK, Canada and Japan, I can quite reliably say that "December is colder than July" as we have four seasons, but is that statement still true if we go to Argentina, South Africa or New Zealand? No, that statement then becomes the opposite as we're in the Southern Hemisphere. Simply working a lot harder can yield better results in certain circumstances such as in primary school or if you're a taxi driver (whose daily income can be increased by simply spending more hours at work, picking up passengers). But once you move out of that context, then that statement no longer is true. So the person who came up with this very misleading statement about hard work being the answer to overcoming the lack of intelligence is wrong on so many levels. When it comes to dealing with the top jobs in IT, then simply working harder is no substitute for intelligence and talent.
DeleteAh yes the main ingredient of social skills/communication - context. To me anonymous didn't provide much details on their background to give any specific advice. We don't know what their career background is, age, or even if they wanted a top job or an average job. But unfortunately companies need to spend 10k pounds just to file all the paperwork for a work visa, so they will only sponsor Singaporeans for top jobs anyway.
DeleteI am making a guess here - I am willing to give Anonymous the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't believing random advice from a stranger and that he isn't that naive. I am guessing that the person who told him that piece of advice probably has made something of themselves but has attributed that success to hard work rather than intelligence or talent. People do that sometimes to claim credit, "do you know how hard I worked to get to where I am today?!?" vs "oh it was easy, I was born intelligent, I didn't even have to try very hard." But whilst I am willing to acknowledge hard work in such cases, it is still impossible to assume that a stupid person with below average intelligence can simply work 18 hours a day 7 days a week and achieve the same results. No, at the most senior levels, especially if you're talking about IT/AI then you need superior intelligence to come up with brand new ideas and solutions. Only taxi drivers can make more money if they are working more hours, as their earnings directly correlate to how many passengers they pick up and the only way to do that is to work 18 hours a day instead of 12 hours a day. But you don't become more intelligent simply by working harder - at primary school level, the kids who study super hard are only cramming more facts into their short term memory in order to take an exam; that works within the context of a primary school examination system, but once you step out of that into the real business world, if you're not born with natural talent, business acumen and intelligence then the best thing to do would be to specialize, pick an area of expertise that is quite niche and become an expert in that so you're not competing with loads of people trying to get into AI/IT.
DeleteHi Amanda, thank you for the insights - yes, I was thinking what would be enough for an average person to survive in the industry (but I am not familiar with global IT industries so I was hesitant to casually remark on it).
DeleteAnd yes, Alex, spot on as usual. I was sceptical...
Part of me thinks it's also Singaporean culture in general. The tuition industry is huge in Singapore because parents think any child, regardless of intelligence, can get an As in their A levels with enough hard work at tuition class. But getting an A on an exam is different from coming up with a completely new A.I algorithm. The former is just memorization of old exams and their answer keys, while the latter is solving an exam that doesn't even exist yet or doesn't have an answer key yet. There is some element of hard work, simply because at the top intelligent people are trying to outcompete each other, but there is still a minimum threshold of intelligence to do a certain job.
DeleteOK let me take you at face value: if you're really that average, then no amount of hard work is going to compensate for your complete lack of intelligence or skill when it comes to succeeding in an industry where you're rewarded for being brilliant. I remember this situation years ago when the company I was working for was hiring and this guy came to me, he was a personal friend but I had to tell him, you don't have any experience in banking how the heck are we going to hire you to do a job you are not qualified for? He said "but I am willing to work hard to learn if you give me the chance." The fact is I already had like ten candidates at the front of the line who have brilliant CVs and have already proven themselves in the industry - they have achieved a lot, they have credibility, they were all clearly very intelligent. How am I supposed to ignore those ten brilliant candidates and give my friend with no experience a chance to prove himself? Get real, no amount of nepotism could help him. He ended up working in a completely different industry. Put yourself in the shows of the HR manager filtering the candidates: the first person you reject is Mr Average who thinks he can compensate for his lack of brilliance by working harder. No, I just shake my head and think, "go be a taxi driver, I can't help you here, we're trying to hire people who have the unfair advantage of being born super intelligent."
DeleteAmanda - Yes, that could have contributed to his line of thought too.
DeleteAlex - That was brutal, I snickered when I saw the last statement that you made. If you had given personal friend a concession and hired him, the resulting catastrophe would have been unimaginable.
Let's put it this way: I am a great believer of this mantra. I'd rather try to reach for the stars and fail, knowing that I can walk away saying "at least I gave it my best shot, I tried." Rather than never ever trying and lying on my death bed with so many regrets about what could have been if only I had the guts to try (and fail). I don't mind failing, I just don't want the aching regrets of never even tried. It sounds to me that you'll rather have regret than failure but let me put it to you this way: if you never even try in the first place, that is still by default a failure as you're right back in the same place. Staying in your lane is accepting failure already, it's a terrible stance to take. Don't make that mistake.
DeleteThat's true. I only have one life and this many opportunities.
DeleteOkay. I have my answer, should have just posted this question in the first place instead of trying to generalise it.
ReplyDeleteI appreicate the detailed explanation, Alex.
People have been telling me that hard work does triumph intelligence and they keep harping on it... but the way I see it, it's a combination of factors - and each of us has to hone said strengths while trying to ensure that our flaws do not end up overpowering them. It reminds me of allocative efficiency.
Well whose advice have you been taking then? Anyone can work hard but we have to acknowledge that the playing field is never level, there will be those of us who are blessed with talents and gifts such as natural intelligence or an exceptional ability to perform in a certain discipline with ease. Can anyone become a composer like Mozart if we simply studied hard and worked hard when it came to music? Absolutely not and there's no shame in acknowledging that we don't have the talent in that area. It is very foolhardy (even downright ridiculous) to claim that hard work can triumph intelligence, it sounds like this person you talked to has acknowledged that he is stupid and lacks intelligence, but he is trying very hard to convince himself that what he lacks in intelligence, he can compensate with hard work. That may work in primary school and even secondary school, where the below average kids can make massive sacrifices and still get the same good results as the naturally clever kids simply by working a lot harder. But that's within a very limited context of the syllabus you will be tested on and all the answers are ultimately found in the textbook - let's leave the school environment and venture out into the real world, the business world where we simply don't have a 'textbook' where all the answers can be found. As such, people like me have to rely on my intelligence to come up with the answers to challenges & problems when there is no 'textbook' to refer to - in such circumstances, those who are naturally intelligent will thrive and those like your friend who lack intelligence will flounder and struggle, given that no amount of hard work will help them deliver the answers in the real world in the absence of a textbook they can memorize. Your friend sounds incredibly Singaporean but more to the point, he sounds like he hasn't realized that the real world is vastly different from the very sterile environment of the school where you can get good results by memorizing the textbooks. People like that who lack intelligence are subject to confirmation bias - so if your friend becomes a taxi driver, then he will work twice as hard to earn more. The taxi driver who is on the road for 16 hours a day is going to earn more than the taxi driver who is only on the road for 8 hours a day because how long you work is directly proportional to the number of passengers you can pick up and the amount you can earn. Yeah it works for people at the bottom of the good chain who have to put in the blood, sweat and tears to earn more money - but once you move beyond that up the food chain to jobs where I'm paid to work smart rather than work hard, you'll realize that it's a completely different set of rules. Sounds like your friend is a loser and is in total denial about the massive disadvantage he is at given his lack of intelligence, I hate to kick a man when he is down but given what a total loser he is, you should just smile and silently judge him for being such a pathetic loser, rather than believe for a moment that anything he said could possibly be true.
DeleteI concur with you, Alex. I didn't take his advice but I was starting to doubt my own judgement because he had been persistent with this set of points that he had mentioned (it had been raised numerous times during the past few months).
DeleteWhat I'd pointed out was this fact - are we even able to compete with people who are more capable? Halfway through the conversation, he said he didn't understand why a NUS first class/2nd upper honours student wouldn't head to Silicon Valley.
That was the moment I got upset (I was holding it in for a while because I felt bad if I were to be too blunt). I was like look dude - Carousell just retrenched 10% of their team. Meta laid off staff in Singapore. The same for Shopee. Even if we wanna talk about standards, it should be GovTech (which is a more probable aim).
Y'know, all this discussion about hard work and intelligence is really a moot point for an individual, because you can't change what you were born with. But one thing an individual can do is find ways to assess their competency relative to their peers. In IT/A.I, an easy way to see how competent you are is to participate in coding challenges. I like using
Deletehttps://leetcode.com/problemset/all/
because after you turn in your solution, it shows you the distribution of all submitted solutions in terms of speed and memory, and you can see your rank. Companies also use these websites to administer coding tests during the interview process. I think it's more helpful than just comparing GPA between applicants. That and opensource contributions.
Just because your friend had been persistent with his set of points for a few months doesn't make him right - I grew up with my uneducated autistic parents who were wrong about most things in life and they are still wrong after several decades, but being wrong for such a long period of time doesn't create an alternative universe where it suddenly becomes true. Are you able to compete with people who are more capable? It depends on what kind of skills are needed for that role and it comes down to your ability to give the employer exactly what they need. If a good NUS grad wants to try their luck in Silicon Valley, it would take a lot more than just good grades to get a good job in Google or the likes of Meta. No, so many people apply for their limited number of positions and they then subject all candidates to a complex recruitment programme that go way beyond the usual psychometric tests - it would involve long interviews, role play scenarios and even games to see how you function in a group. They don't just give out jobs to the grads with the best results you know, the recruiters are finding the people who have the right kind of skills that the company needs and as Amanda has pointed out, social skills form a large part of that process. The way I see it, Singaporeans tend to suck so bad in this process not because they're any less intelligent or capable, but because they have such awful social skills compared to most white people - that's a direct result of the fact that we live in an Asian culture which doesn't place much importance on social skills. So I think you're viewing this from a very warped perspective when you've placed way too much importance on academic grades rather than putting yourself on the other side of the fence of a big company in the West - what are they looking for? What are their criteria? Do they care what your grades are or do they want to know if you're going to be a good fit for the team (for example, if you have good social skills that allow you to work well in a team)?
DeleteHi there, I'd just like to add I recently failed the first round of interviews at a big tech company because it was a "behavioral" interview which I'd never experienced before. Their questions were things like "when did you once have a disagreement with a colleague and how did you resolve it?" I worked alone for the past 5 years so I wasn't prepared with any examples. But this was a case where one has to showcase their ability to negotiate with other people, independent of the technical knowledge. I did my undergrad in Singapore so wasn't prepared for this type of interview, but that just shows how big of an emphasis American companies place on social skills. Not American, but I talked to a Canadian software engineer recently who told me that "in North America, we generally feel that if someone is easy to work with and intelligent, then they will generally be cooperative enough to train at things they might not know. But if someone is an asshole, even if they know a lot that's very hard to work with and we don't want them!"
DeleteOh it's perhaps not a Singaporean thing but social skills are rarely taught properly. I did do some training with my new company where I emphasized the principle of when someone gives you a piece of information on a topic you know nothing about, simply turn that information into a question to continue facilitating the conversation. (All this was done in Spanish of course.) So I held my cup up to the screen (as this was Zoom) and I gave them a little piece of information, I bought this lovely cup when I was on holiday in Wales. So according to the training, you don't know anything about the cup but you have that much information, so some questions you could ask could be, "when were you in Wales? Why did you go to Wales? Which part of Wales were you in? What else did you buy in Wales? Do you go to Wales often? etc" or even "Do you like buying mugs and cups as souvenirs when on holiday? Do you have mugs/cups from other places you have been on holiday?" No wrong answers as long as you generate a question from the piece of info I fed you. The guy took ages to reply and he asked me, "is Wales a part of England?" Oh I could scream. Firstly, this was never meant to be a test of his geography, I don't expect my Latino colleagues to have any understanding of British geography but he completely didn't understand the purpose of the exercise and I was like, where do I even begin to teach him social skills in a business context?!?!?!
DeleteDuring my big tech interview I really struggled to figure out what the interviewer wanted to know from me. A friend of mine who studied in America said to go to the career counselor because then they tell you exactly what they are looking for, and unless I did my undergrad here I wouldn't know. Usually I figure out what an interviewer wants by observing them talk, but when I had to ask the questions then they would only talk depending on what I say. But I think I prefer your approach Alex, instead of trying to give an answer as a piece of information the other person is looking for, instead turn the topic into another question.
DeleteI also went to an internship information session, and I think I observed someone else, a college freshman, pull that off eloquently. The speaker was talking about his education background, and how he stumbled in his early years. Then this college freshman asks "what kind of advice would you give your younger self?" and the speaker said "I like how you phrased that question as what I'd tell my younger self instead of what advice I'd tell you right now. I would say to ask experts more questions, does that make sense?" and the freshman said "well I'm talking to you right now eh?" At first I thought, but that freshman didn't say anything technical, then I realized that's not the point of the info session. The speaker even said that during the interview process they ask for 3 references, but they will only call them to ask how is it like to work with the interviewee rather than about technical knowledge. I notice its not all companies that ask for a behavioral interview, but the very top companies which pay the highest salaries tend to do it because they get too many applicants and prefer people they enjoy working with.
Hi Amanda, thank you for sharing your experiences (the interview for a big tech company and the internship information sessions) and observations. Those were very helpful and yes, I have been attempting leetcode challenges.
DeleteThis question in particular - "when did you once have a disagreement with a colleague and how did you resolve it?" was actually raised during my interview too. There were numerous other questions (would you rather take in average skilled + hardworking teammate or someone's who's very technically competent but has attitude issues) and one of the other interviewers eventually asked if I'd coordinated with HR before speaking to him - I didn't know whether to treat it as a compliment or insult... I just said that my opinion stemmed from a belief that I held close.
And also, Alex, I wasn't thinking along the lines of grades when it came to capability - more of: intelligence + rate of adaption + ease of working in a team (includes communication skills) + tenacity + whether person takes the initiative + decision-making process. This is why I asked average person, decent social skills, and, hard work. You are right that I was starting to waver with my stance because said person is successful.
Additionally, this approach (turning topic into question) that you have stated here is effective. I think that you get more information that way and it leaves behind a favourable impression because you show that you're paying attention. It is what I personally discovered and started using a while ago (probably a year or so).
Allow me to introduce another dimension here - the concept of Asian face and how we hate losing face or doing anything that may tarnish our image in Asian cultures. Now on my blog I have shared stories of how I had encountered difficult people at work, how I had been miserable at work in the past, how I had hated some of the terrible jobs I did in the past. I don't want to justify it and say but it was all worth it, or that it was character building exercise that taught me valuable lessons blah blah blah. I am doing something a lot of Asian people would never do - I am honestly putting my hands up and say I HAVE MADE THOSE MISTAKES, I HAVE BEEN WRONG, MY JUDGEMENT WAS POOR WHEN I WAS YOUNGER. A lot of Asian people would rather commit suicide than actually go through that process of admitting that they had been wrong. Why? They have low self-esteem. They think that if they actually admitted that they were wrong, then you would lose all respect for them and consider them an idiot. That's not true of course. I think my readers find my willingness to admit my mistakes, my candid approach, this honesty really refreshing because they are sick and tired of talking to people who are so Asian they will never have this level of honesty because of this concept of 'face'.
DeleteYes I am successful today but I have made so many stupid mistakes in the past. If I could change the past, I would have avoided that worst mistakes. Let's not pretend for a moment that I knew what I was doing, otherwise I wouldn't have messed up and made those mistakes. Now it sounds to me like the person you talked to could be like me; ie. successful today but has made mistakes in the past; however, he is very reluctant to admit that those mistakes were stupid errors of judgment and he is trying to present them as some kind of character building exercise that was valuable experience. I have met successful people like that who are still insecure, they want you to focus on their most successful achievements and they will try to present their bad mistakes as character building experiences rather than, "yeah even I made some bad decisions in the past that I still regret today."
Yeah, I agree - now I see why he was clinging onto his success for dear life. Making mistakes is just part and parcel of life - we have to acknowledge that these existed instead of pretending those never happened. It's what makes us human anyway.
DeleteOh it's an important social skill to have but a lot of Asian people lack that because they are obsessed with this concept of "saving face" - this has been a recurring theme with my family and that's why I keep my distance from them. My parents will always defend a mistake even though they have been proven wrong: firstly, they will deny that what they have said or done is wrong by trying to justify it. My sisters will usually give them face at this point and let them say their piece but I'll be like, "nope you're talking rubbish, allow me to bring up these sources to prove that I'm 100% right and you're 100% wrong." Then they'll start making excuses as to why it is not their fault that they've been misinformed. And I'm like, I'm not interested in your excuses, I don't mind that you don't know about this topic - what I don't like is the way you assume I will lose respect for you if you're proven wrong, or that I'll think you're stupid. After all, I already know for a fact that my parents are very stupid and totally uneducated. I wanna tell them, "please don't worry about losing face because you have none left - I already have a very low opinion of you, it can't get any lower." But I see how they have set a terrible example for my nephew. I remember once I was teaching him A level economics and we were dealing with an exam question about the South Korean economy, he tried to defend himself by claiming that his teacher never taught him anything about South Korea so he can't be expected to know the answer - that was when I really lost my temper and gave him one hell of a scolding because that's the kind of bad behaviour he has picked up from my parents. Did I expect him to know the answer? Not really. But the correct response would have been, "wow Uncle Alex you know so much about South Korea, I love K-culture, you can teach me so much about South Korea." And that would have left me as the teacher in that case feeling quite happy to indulge him and forgive the fact that he got that question wrong. It really irks me when people get defensive - that's so freaking Asian. That's why I am totally open and I refuse to be defensive about the dumb mistakes I've made in the past, I hope that gives you the confidence that in place of this Asian need to be defensive, you get something far more precious from me: honesty. And on that basis, you feel you can trust me and believe what I say. That's worth so much more to me than any concept of 'Asian face-saving'.
DeleteThere was a recent discourse that I had with a colleague who was fixated on jumping to another "better" company and the benefits of doing so - said person would repeatedly bring it up.
ReplyDeleteWe've been confirmed in our current positions so I had pointed out that we've already acquired the best out of the scenario we're in. That led me to this question - am I underestimating my own ability?
Your colleague may have a point about working for a better company - you need to be in a place where you can grow, where you're empowered, where you're trusted to take the lead on projects, where people will listen to your original ideas. I had been in a position in the past where I did all the hard work and my boss took all the credit - I was so miserable there. As for your ability, I don't know you well enough to give you an answer to that question and only you can answer that question or at least someone who knows you well enough can give you a good answer to that question. I've struggled with that recently with my sister - she has a terrible job but then again, would she be able to leave her company and get a better job? I'm not sure, I don't know but there's a possibility that she would really struggle to get a better job and even if she did get a better job, I'm not entirely convinced she would be able to rise to the occasion and thrive in that better job - thus she may have considered all that and decided that she was better off staying exactly where she is until she retires eventually. Now that's my sister I'm talking about, I actually know her well enough to judge her abilities that way. You need to talk to someone who knows you well enough to give you a harsh but fair evaluation about your abilities and where you stand right now with regards to your current position at work.
DeleteI agree, but I do not have the fortune of having someone who knows me well enough to evaluate my abilities... Instead of throwing caution to the wind, I will be staying in my lane and gaining the necessary experience first.
DeleteI hate to be harsh but that sounds like a terribly lame excuse to "stay in your own lane", people who use that line of reasoning end up staying in their lane year after year then one day they wake up and they realize they're 60 years old. You're never going to become smarter - you have to realize that staying in your lane is NEVER going to somehow make you a better worker, it's never going to improve your IQ or make you more brilliant. All it will do is making you good at staying in your lane whilst others overtake you. Like I said, it's time for some tough love - like you do even read the shit you're posting here and how terribly wrong that all sounds?
DeleteI was going to apologize for being harsh on you but then again, I don't feel bad about giving you a wake up call and telling you that your kind of reasoning is total bullshit and does absolutely nothing to help get you further in life. Nobody ever becomes successful by staying in their lane and giving themselves bullshit excuses not to try harder - what you wrote is a huge pile of bullshit and for your own sake, I hope you realize that and wake the hell up.
DeleteNot wrong, Alex. To a certain extent (shamefully speaking), I have given up - which why I felt that I should just stay like that. A wake up call is needed.
DeleteYou know me, Uncle Alex is all about tough love.
DeleteI appreciate the timely advice as usual, Alex. Thank you.
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