Monday, 27 September 2021

шоу-бізнес у Києві part 2: how to get people to like you

Hello again guys, today I want to talk about one of the reasons why I had such a wonderful time on this shoot: I really liked all the people I worked with and without sounding too boastful, I think they enjoyed working with me too. I have been on shoots in the past where there was a toxic atmosphere but thankfully this time, I thought everyone was so nice to me and of course, this made the experience even more wonderful for me. The fact is when I got off the plane at Kiev Boryspil airport, I didn't know a single person on the project but I managed to make friends very quickly with the cast and the crew. In this post, I want to talk about the art of getting people to like you at work. Don't forget, you can always check out all the photos and videos I had posted from this trip to Kiev on my Instagram so here are six key factors on the topic. 

Step 1: Establish common ground 

The first thing to do when you meet someone for the first time under such circumstances is to try to establish common ground. To do this, you first need to ask a lot of questions about the other person, show plenty of interest in them. So in my case, this was easy: the first thing I did was to try to find out if they traveled to Kiev from another city/country for the project or if they were a local. I would also try to ascertain if they spoke another language apart from English and if it was possible for us to try to speak in another language as well. I know that the odds of actually finding someone with the exact same interests as myself is very low, but nonetheless, even in a worst case scenario: I meet someone whom I realize I have virtually nothing in common with called Ben - I then use the topic of "Ben" as the starting point after all, Ben is going to be interested in himself. You'll be amazed how big people's egos are: most people actually love talking about themselves and if you show interest in them, then at least you both have one thing in common. Thus in this case, both Ben and I have one thing in common: we're both interested in Ben. Would I ever be able to establish a solid and profound friendship with Ben if this is all we have in common? Let's get real, no way - that's never going to happen if we simply don't have enough in common but at the very least, this tactic would enable me to establish some rapport with him in the first instance. I also keep an open mind when I meet people like that whom I have nothing in common with: so I will pretend that I am participating in a piece of experimental immersive theatre or conducting my anthropology experiments!

Step 2: Avoid talking about yourself, but be open at the same time

A big mistake to avoid is to talk about yourself: the golden rule is to offer that information only when people show interest in you. So if someone asks you a question like, "what is your job?" or "do you have a pet?" Then feel free to volunteer as much information as you want about that topic. So allow me to share with you how one woman got this totally wrong - let's call her "Carrie" because she is from Hong Kong and her accent reminds me of Carrie Lam. She is a prime example of someone who is highly intelligent but lacks basic social skills. Carrie is an external consultant that my company works with a lot and so during a meeting this week, one colleague said, "hey Alex, tell Carrie what you were doing in Kiev last weekend." So I told her in a nutshell what I did in Kiev in like three sentences, short and sweet - if she wanted, she could ask me for more details. But Carrie did next was unreal, she then started telling us this story about how she once sang at an event in Hong Kong when she was much younger - she claimed that everyone at the event thought she was a professional because her voice was so incredible and how they gave her a standing ovation - she went into every minute detail, right down to the dress she was wearing that evening. Oh dear, Carrie just went on and on and on despite the fact that my colleague and I had lost interest in her story - but no, she remained oblivious to the way we were clearly bored. Carrie clearly enjoyed reliving what must have been a fun experience from her youth, but was she establishing rapport with me by saying, "you do some acting, me too, I used to be a singer when I was younger." No, she had misfired and totally failed to establish any rapport with me by assuming that I wanted to listen to her story that went on and on and on.

There is definitely a right balance to be struck when it comes to offering information about yourself - the trick is to offer some interesting detail and then allow the other party to respond, thus turning it into a proper conversation. So if Carrie had summarized her story in just two or three sentences, I could have then responded with questions like, "did you ever consider going into showbiz if you really had such a great voice? Did you prefer singing in English or Cantonese? Who are your favourite singers? Do you prefer singing something classical or pop music? What kind of music did you grow up listening to in Hong Kong?" That would have at least allowed me to feel more involved in that conversation and  she could have then reciprocated by trying to ask me some questions about what kind of music I liked  or if I enjoy singing. Then I'm sure we could have had a more cordial conversation about music if she had allowed me to participate in it that way but no - instead, I felt totally bored by Carrie going on and on and on, not giving me a chance to respond to anything she was saying. My colleague was equally wary of Carrie - he said that whilst she was absolutely brilliant in her area of expertise, holy shit this woman had no social skills when it came to the simple art of conversation. All she ever does is talk about herself whilst being totally oblivious to whether the other party is interested or not. So if you do want people to like you, then you must avoid making Carrie's mistake by talking too much about yourself. Maybe it's a cultural thing - I do think part there's definitely a strong correlation between her poor social skills and the fact that she's from Hong Kong. 

3. Be prepared to earn any friendship, don't something for nothing. 

The fact is I was respectful and friendly to Carrie in spite of her atrocious social skills because my relationship with her is strictly professional - she is not a personal friend but someone I have to work with. My company is paying me good money to put up with her poor social skills listen to her terribly long stories. I think there was an expectation on her part that because my company has chosen to work with her and use her services, that it somehow implies that we adore her as an individual and like her as a friend. There is a huge difference between demanding respect and genuinely earning it - whilst I've always been very critical about my father, it is quite incredible how he has managed to get away with it most of his life. When he worked as a primary school teacher, he demanded unconditional respect from his students and they were culturally conditioned to offer that to him (even if he was a really terrible teacher). Likewise, with my mother, I have never seen him do anything nice for her like even buy her a birthday present - no, his logic is he married her when no one else would and given her a family, thus in return he demands her unconditional devotion. Likewise with his children, he has never ever made any effort to try to be nice to his own children - his logic is that he has brought us up, given us a roof over our heads, fed us and paid our school fees etc, thus in return we have to offer unconditional respect. Most people from his former students to my mother to my two sisters actually do give him what he wants (most of the time anyway), but sadly he has no real friends because he does not understand the concept of earning someone's friendship. 

When I go to a very expensive restaurant, I would naturally expect to receive very good service during the meal and that's because I have paid a lot of money for someone to treat me like a VIP. However, the waiter who is very polite to me doesn't actually like me at all - rather, he is merely doing his job. Likewise, my sister is culturally conditioned to act in a respectful manner towards my father but does she actually love or like him? No, I don't think so - I genuinely have no idea how she puts up with his atrociously bad social skills, there is a good reason why I live eight time zones away from him and avoid him as much as possible. I don't actually hate my father, but sorry, I just can't deal with people with such awful social skills. I seek social interactions that will bring me love and joy rather than frustration and angst. My point is simple: you should never assume that people have any reason to like you but you need to give them a reason to like you - now that may be because you have proven to them that you have enough common ground with them that they will enjoy your company or maybe because you could prove to be a very useful contact to know (and hence you might be of great help to them in the future). It is so important to offer them that reason to like you in the first instance and so in Kiev, I had two things to offer my fellow actors - if they wanted to go sightseeing with me, I was happy to take them around as I have done my research on Kiev and I do speak Russian well (along with a little Ukrainian). Secondly, I do know a lot of people in the industry in London so if they ever want to consider working in London, I would be a useful contact to have. I am offering them something for free and giving them enough reasons to like me as I don't expect something for nothing. 

4. Remember facts about the people you've met. 

Have you ever been at a party or event where you're introduced to ten people at a time and you can only remember the names of about half of them? Yeah, that's because you're given a lot of information at one time and without a clear context associated with each individual person, it is pretty hard to retain that information associating a name to a face. Yeah imagine walking onto a film set where there are like 40 or even 50 people there, just trying to remember everyone's name is mission impossible. But when you do remember details about people, it usually impresses them and it shows you are taking an interest in them. So on the first day in Kiev when I met my Dutch colleague Aaron, he told me about an ad he had done in Amsterdam earlier this year and a few days later, when that came up in a conversation, I casually said, "oh yes, that was what you had to do for that mywheels.nl ad right?" It demonstrated to him that not only was I paying attention during our initial conversation but I genuinely took an interest in his work. It was a minor detail but it impressed him that I remembered it. Likewise, when a reader remembers a post I have done ages ago, it usually makes me very happy and that is really a far easier way to impress someone than to try to dazzle them with your impressive achievements. You would be amazed how many people simply fail to remember basic facts about people they have met for a simple reason: they're not interested enough in the other person to care so any information associated with that person simply slips through the net. It takes a certain amount of discipline to pay enough attention and retain all that information, if you really want to use that information to build rapport with them - by pressing the right buttons with them. 

I'm currently currently watching a German drama series Der Gleiche Himmel with my husband and he would constantly pause the film to ask me questions like, "who is this older man? How is he related to Lars in West Berlin? Where have we seen him before?" He usually wouldn't remember all the characters from the story and I would be the one who would have to explain how each character is related to the others and elements of the plot to him - it's not even as if any of that detail is lost in translation: we are watching it with English subtitles (which I am not using of course, given that I do speak German) but he simply found it hard to keep track of so many moving parts in a complex story - it's not like I have read the entire plot from the page on Wikipedia (no I don't want any spoilers) so I am dealing with the same amount of information as he has but somehow, I am able to remember a lot more about each individual character in the show. My conclusion from this is that I am actually far more interested in this German series than he is, otherwise he would have paid more attention. This is when I channel my inner Asian student - I've sat through so many lessons as a student when I am not really all that interested in the topic but I simply force myself to pay attention, take note and remember everything the teacher is saying. There is definitely an element of discipline to stay focused when absorbing a large volume of information in a short space of time and whether you're watching a movie, meeting people at an event or attending a lecture at school, you need to harness that same discipline to process and retain that information. My husband not paying enough attention to a TV programme is a simple example of how seemingly well-educated, intelligent people can allow information to slip through their fingers - it takes a genuine effort to retain all that information. 

5. Make others feel like they are a part of the team too. 

In this ad, I had to learn lines in Cambodian and it is actually not a language that I speak so I am merely remembering the words that the Cambodian language teacher has given me. I was one of the few characters in the ad who had lines, most of the others had just non-speaking parts. Whilst I was quite happy to simply do this task entirely on my own with just the help of the language teacher, two other members of the cast wanted to get involved and learn the lines with me as well. Someone who was more insecure would have asked them to back off just in case they did it better than me and the director would give them the lines instead but no, I was happy to invite them to learn the lines with me as I was curious to see how they coped but since they wanted to get involved, I wanted to make them feel like they were part of the team. Even though I was the one with the speaking part, the ultimate goal of the team was to give the client the best possible result and working together would help us achieve that goal together as a team. Did I actually need any extra help from them though? Not at all! Oh come on, modesty aside - I am a polyglot who can speak 25 languages already and even if Cambodian/Khmer wasn't one of the 25 languages that I speak, if anyone can learn a few sentences in Cambodian quickly, it would be me. So really, they were more like cheerleaders encouraging me and cheering me along rather than helping or teaching me per se but I didn't tell them that. Instead, I did the opposite: I told them that they had been awesome and without their help, I would have really struggled with the process and hence I am most grateful for their help. In return this helped establish team spirit and created a very conducive working environment within the group

6. Let's not forget the element of luck as well. 

When I got off that plane in Kiev airport, I didn't know a single person on the project but when I boarded that plane to come back home, I had made quite a few good friends on the project - I particularly got along extremely well with the two Dutch guys who were so amused by the fact that I speak Dutch and am a huge fan of a popular Dutch reality TV programme. I asked them, "am I the first non-Dutch person you've met who is a big fan of Wie Is De Mol?" They laughed and said, "I think you're the first non-Dutch person we've met who actually speaks Dutch." They felt so comfortable with me that they would speak to each other and to me in Dutch, whilst they only spoke in English in the presence of others so I felt like I was given "honorary Dutch status". I suppose it was plain luck that I ran into these two Dutch guys and got along so well with them - contrast that to the shoot I did in Hungary in 2016 when I really struggled to get along with some of the dancers on the shoot. I suppose it's a bit like showing up on the first day of school: you hope for the best but expect the worst when it comes to the people you find in your class. Yeah I can talk about social skills all night but really, luck plays such a big role to determine whether you're in a class full of nasty bullies and assholes or if you step into an environment full of kind people - well, this was really the latter for me in Kiev. There wasn't a single person I disliked there and I cannot ignore the role of luck here. I was extremely lucky in this case. It was a shame that this was such a short project because I really liked all the people I worked with in Kiev - I would have loved to spend more time with that team. 

Okay so that's it from me on this topic, what do you think? Do you have any tips for making friends very quickly with strangers you've just met at work? Have you ever been in a position like myself where you turn up for work on the first day and had to get to know everyone around you at work? Do you think I was lucky in Kiev, or could I take more credit for having made friends quickly with the people on the project? Please do leave a comment below, many thanks for reading. 

36 comments:

  1. Oh god the new guy in my workplace is someone like Carrie, can't stop talking after you ask just one small question, and bragging about his achievements. But of course, I still have to establish common ground. The other day I saw he was wearing a mask with sushi all over it, and I asked if he liked sushi and what were his favorite Japanese restaurants since I love sushi too. Catching on visible small details like that is another way to build rapport, especially if it's something you like too.

    See what I don't like about that new guy's way of building rapport is that I don't care about his grades/achievements if he talks like a one-way radio and doesn't even care about my involvement in the conversation. It's just disrespectful. One thing people don't understand too well because authority figures can be assholes is that to earn respect, you have to show respect to other people. But it seems this guy is so desperate to be liked and respected that he thinks achievement dumping is the way to win it. Maybe your father was his primary school teacher haha, I can't imagine him showing interest and respect to his students to get it back...

    On the topic of authority figures with bad social skills, I can't believe my coworker said this recently when he had to manage a project for some undergrad students "Oh if you have problems understanding X, Y, Z components on the project, that's fine, because we have two very smart experts available in myself and this other guy." Two very smart experts?! I have no idea how he has a girlfriend and how she puts up with this... But saying that to students under you was just lame because they can't say anything back due to the power difference.

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    1. Yup, I'm sure we've all met people like Carrie! I don't think she's a bad person per se, she is just utterly clueless when it comes to social skills and thus I kinda feel bad because on one hand I feel sorry for her, on the other hand, the thought of spending time with her socially - no no no no no. That's why whenever she asked me and my colleague out for a meal or to go for drinks, we always find an excuse to say no, sorry I can't do it today but nothing time. I don't have the heart to say, "no Carrie, we don't wanna hang out with you as we both think you have no social skills and we definitely don't wanna spend the whole evening just listening to yet another one of your super long stories. But hey, thanks for your work on the latest project, you're brilliant at what you do despite the fact that you have no social skills." So yeah, your colleague is just like that - he has no idea what it means to establish rapport and get people to like you, you should share this post with him!

      I think it is unreal how my father got away with zero social skills all his his but it is his culture which allows him to get away with it. You see, back in Singapore, we have something called 'teachers' day' - it is the last Friday of the third term in the academic year and that's the day when children (and their parents) would offer everything from flowers to cards to cakes to thank the teachers for their hard work all year. You would get half day off and students from secondary schools would go visit their ex teachers in primary school, those in JC would go back to their secondary schools and even working adults will take time off and go visit their favourite teachers. It's a big thing in Singaporean culture and here's the thing I noted: even the terrible teachers received many gifts from the students and I often wondered why? I would gladly offer a teacher I like a gift, but why would anyone offer a bad teacher a gift? I can only conclude that it must be a cultural thing - that Asian students are culturally conditioned to respect all teachers (and that respect is not contingent on the teachers being good at their jobs).

      It's like that time I told my parents that I thought my uncle (ie. my sister's younger brother) was a good for nothing loser and my father told me off for being disrespectful to an elder, that I couldn't speak like that of someone like my uncle because he was older than me. And oooh boy, did I back down? No, I went on a tirade and my father was left exasperated - I just refused to back down. I'm culturally so different from these Asian people. I don't do what these Asian people do.

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    2. LOL I have just been dealing with Carrie this afternoon. My way of keeping her at arm's length is by being very, very formal with her - so that's my way of saying, "this is work, I'm formal with you as I work with you; please don't mistake me as a friend whom you can hang out with socially. Feel free to speak to me if you need help on this project we're working on but otherwise I only see you as a work contact and not a friend."

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    3. It seems Carrie does not know how to read the room to gauge interest. Whether that's in her stories or in people wanting to meet her outside of work. Can't do much about that except not appearing biased against her in a professional capacity. It makes me wonder if Carrie is married and doesn't put as much effort into social skills with strangers due to the lack of need to impress people.

      Since I'm younger I tolerate my "Carrie" more. But he isn't my favorite coworker that I would initiate an invitation myself. I'm just trying hard not to appear cold since we're still technically students.

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    4. Since you've asked, I know the answer! Carrie is divorced but is currently seeing someone - I know because (surprise, surprise) she told me. I would never ask such a personal question but once she gets talking, she doesn't know where to stop. So she told me all about the guy she is currently seeing and how they met, what they did on holiday together etc. Clearly he likes her enough to wanna be with her, but I can see what you're thinking of - because in my parents' case, their attitude is, "well I am already married, so why do I need to bother to be nice to my spouse and do things like buy birthday presents?" My company wants to work with Carrie because she is a specialist in her niche area of expertise and she is superb at her job. So this kinda allows her to get away with it, much like my father did.

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    5. Well that means Carrie was charming enough to charm at least two men hehe. Still I have no idea what guy could go on vacation with that, unless Carrie has good social skills when she really likes someone. But yeah, like the phrase "dad bod", or "mom bod", when people get married and have kids they stop trying to win a mate. But good for Carrie she's talented enough to make a decent living without needing that much social skills. Though I used to work like a Carrie, I am getting more out of life after I did pick up some interpersonal skills.

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    6. Oh in the case of Carrie, it's not even like it's an issue with her looks/appearance, no it is with her social skills. Can you imagine what her boyfriend must have to go through, each time she starts telling yet another story that goes on and on and on? But my theory is a simple on: my father is so autistic yet he got married, because he aimed low - lower your standards enough and there will be someone who will think you're awesome. Maybe Carrie's boyfriend is really old and gross - who knows? I never met him so I have no idea but I'll leave that to your imagination as to what he could be like.

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    7. So my "Carrie" said to me once after he went on and on "did I just mansplain? My girlfriend says I mansplain a lot." No, because mansplaining implies he only seeks attention at the office from women, but he doesn't discriminate by gender. I also found out his girlfriend works at a supermarket. I really hope he didn't just pick someone who actually thinks he's smart no matter what he says just because he has a bachelor's degree while she doesn't. Also I don't think Carrie's boyfriend is likely to be old and gross, more like poor(whatever age too), since Carrie looks like she clearly makes a lot of money. Many guys would love to date a girl with a much nicer car than them.

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    8. I laughed out aloud when you said he was dating someone from the supermarket. Look, I have two friends who actually work in a supermarket currently and you can make that three if I am allowed to include a friend who used to work in a supermarket but has left to do something else. I guess it's a bit like that story I said in the other thread about the waiter in the restaurant who suffered a fit and had a seizure - I don't think it's just about money per se, it's also about looks and as you've pointed out, age. I'm sure Carrie will tell me more about her boyfriend at some stage since we work together and she can't stop talking about herself - when she does, I'll let you know! Mind you, I am a bit curious actually.

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    9. Look I have nothing against people who work in Supermarkets. Maybe it's because I'm a girl, I knew it was not too long ago you had men who wanted a woman where he could look down on their achievements, infantilize, and "take care of" because he thought she couldn't take care of herself as well. And the kinda men who did this were super insecure and took pride in their number 1 status at home to boost their own ego. I fear this dude is doing that to his girlfriend since his bragging makes him sound like he thinks he's better than everyone. Last week he said out loud "I hate people on Linkedin, all they do is brag", and I just lost it and said "but don't you do the same?" and listed all his examples. He went quiet immediately, couldn't even defend himself or admit "yeah I suppose I do..."

      Yeah I'm curious too who could put up with her talking on vacation. But then again I know many guys who put up with a lot for just a casual relationship if the girl is really pretty. I know you like men but is Carrie really pretty?

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    10. Well yes, what you've described is the situation in China today where males are left on the shelf because they can't find a woman less educated/poorer than them. They are not willing to marry an equal or a woman who earns more, so they remain single or even resort to getting a bride from a remote province in the countryside. But if the men are already in a remote province in the countryside, then they have no hope, no chance of finding a wife. Actually Carrie isn't pretty at all, sorry if I may be blunt. She's kinda around my age I am guessing (mid-40s) and in Singapore, we'll refer to her as your typical 'auntie'. Maybe 20 years ago she might've been hot but not today, sorry.

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    11. Lol, I thought you would say they would buy a mail order bride from Vietnam or another poor Southeast Asian country. But most likely the in-laws want a Chinese daughter-in-law. What you're saying sounds similar to the situation in East Germany. When I talked to a West German in Singapore he said when the economic situation is bad in a small rural town, the first people to leave are the young people and the women. So you have a situation with a lot of single middle aged men in East Germany and nightclubs with 75% men. The German guy's American girlfriend even joked that the guy's brother in law who is East German had to "immigrate" to West Germany to marry his sister. But East German men are less fussy about their wives making more than them, because in communist East Germany everyone worked, man or woman.

      Carrie probably met this guy on Tinder, or anywhere really. Jeezus that reminds me of this guy I met in fencing class once in Sg who asked me out on one date, then immediately the next day asked me to go on a scuba diving trip with him to Thailand. Apparently he had a scientist fetish because he couldn't stop talking about how his best friend is a scientist. I'm so surprised he gave me that much attention because I hardly say anything.

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    12. Carrie wants to introduce me to one of her friends tomorrow - yikes. I hope it is purely professional and surely, like surely, I don't have to spell it out to her that I AM GAY. I hope she isn't so clueless that she isn't trying to play cupid. If it's strictly professional, ie. her friend wants to do business with our company, then that's fine then. But urgh, I know I have to spent part of my Thursday with Carrie and even my boss was like, "tell her I'm not free tomorrow but find out what she wants." Wish me luck.

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    13. Lol you think it's a date? Yeah I'm curious too as to why she wants to introduce you to someone. If it's to help get connections for a job then she could at least be upfront about it. Good luck listening to Carrie haha.

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    14. Oh please, let's hope it's just a work thing. I am curious though to see what kind of people Carrie has as friends - I've met some people who are my father's friends. It was weird. My father has no social skills, he doesn't listen, so once when I was at a lunch with his friends, it would be like this: friend A tells a story, no one else at the table acknowledges what he is saying. Friend B then tells a story, same thing happens. Then my father tells a story, no one cares. It is a series of monologues rather than any semblance of a real conversation. I didn't really care about his friends anyway since I thought I would never meet them ever again, I think they're just a bunch of lonely old men who are in the same boat, none of them have any social skills but how well do they really know each other if they don't even know how to talk to each other? Bizarre, one of the weirdest social interactions I've ever witnessed I swear.

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    15. The friend thing is also a good question. Because I wonder what happens if Carrie's friend has a problem and needs Carrie to listen but she can't/doesn't. Oh yeah you told me the story of that weird lunch when you were afraid your father's friends would find out you're gay, but it turns out they never even asked about your life because they were busy talking about themselves. It really makes me wonder how such old men even manage to get married as well. But then again not everyone expects an emotional connection from marriage. Like you once mentioned a friend who is a lawyer who got a mail order bride who doesn't even speak English and had a kid with her.

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    16. Well turns out Carrie's friend is already married and the meeting is purely professional, to Carrie's credit, her friend was a very relevant contact and it was a good introduction. As for my father, go figure: he's married and has friends but that weird lunch was testament as to quality of those friendships - go figure. Let's put it this way: if I may compare marriage to lunch. A poor person may eat two slices of white bread and that's lunch, it fills his stomach. A rich person may have a very expensive meal and that's still performing the same function, it is still lunch but oh the latter is a far more pleasurable process. Likewise, anyone can get married if you lower your standards far enough. But let's not imagine that all marriages are of the same quality, clearly not - just because you've had lunch doesn't mean you've had a nice lunch (ie. 2 slices of white bread).

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    17. As for why Carrie is good friend with his totally normal lady, go figure - I've yet to figure why they are hanging out. I don't get it.

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    18. *Sorry typo: "THIS" totally normal lady.

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    19. My guess is that Carrie and this friend actually do have loads of things in common, such that her going on and on is an interesting conversation. I guess I watch too many rom-coms and Disney movies and assume every marriage has a minimum standard to it. But even rich people can have miserable marriages. They just have other hobbies to fill the void.

      Btw I'm surprised you used Emmanuel Macron as an example of "politician handsome" and not Justin Trudeau. Though Trudeau comes off more as "former Prime minister's jock son" instead of super intellectual like Macron. But I like Macron too actually. Btw, Spain also has a hot male prime minister (Pedro Sanchez).

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    20. Who knows Amanda, I kept it very professional and only talked about our my company could collaborate with her friend. As for marriage, have you seen people eating the equivalent of two slices of white bread for lunch because they can't afford anything else? Well the same thing can happen with marriage - they have the equivalent and that's it. I think you and I are too conditioned to think about ourselves, our thinking is, "if I am going to be married, I should be happy otherwise why bother." Which is obviously the most logical way to approach it. But there are a lot of people who see marriage and having a family as a duty they must perform. So I see these news reports of famine and poverty in places like Afghanistan and Yemen and the women there have something like 8 children, I'm like whaaaat? You have no job, no home, no food to feed yourself and you wanna have that many children? OK so that's a bit of an extreme example but you get the idea. Macron is the best of all the DILF politician out there. But heck, Macron is younger than me - now I feel old! But I accept that and now I strive to be a DILF.

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    21. Ahh okay so it was a business meeting, sounds cool. I thought the 8 children in Yemen was to provide cheap labor for subsistence farming. But that is the "skills trap" that developing countries suffer. They need money now so they mobilize a mostly low skilled workforce. But lack of investment in machinery and skills means productivity doesn't increase and the country is perpetually dependent on young low skilled workers and jobs to survive. It's the macro version of the working class mindset. But I'm privileged to only look for upper class jobs because my parents looked down on any job that didn't require innovation or ideas.

      Yup Macron is handsome whilst also looking smart. He does have nice hair though, but there are bald DILFs like Vin Diesel and Corey Stoll you could emulate. Y'know as a kid I just accepted I didn't have a great physique, but as an adult I'm like "oh I have money and time and can do something about it now. Off to the gym and eating healthy food."

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    22. On the topic of 8 children in places like Yemen: that's the kind of answer that school kids would memorize for a geography exam Amanda but the un-PC reality is that people in such countries have that many children because that's the norm for them. A wife who only gives her husband 2 children would be seen as letting him down, religion actually plays a massive role in this. The countries with the highest birth rates have a combination of the following:

      - very religious society embracing either Islam or Catholicism
      - very low rates of literacy
      - very bad situation in terms of women's rights

      So it is a combination of all that which compels women to have many children whether they want it or not - I dismiss the idea that there's any kind of rational thinking on the part of such people to consider children as cheap labour for subsistence farming. Nah, sorry but these people are irrational or plain stupid - they make really bad decisions that trap themselves and their next generation in deep poverty. It is the working class mindset at work - when they are caught in an endless cycle of poverty generation after generation.

      Corey Stoll is okay if he shaves but he doesn't look good with a beard.

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    23. I didn't really want to mention the un-PC answer to be fair, but I did get scolded for that in my high school humanities class by my teacher. I was asking the teacher why people had children before they had a career and house, and she said "you take it for granted everyone is educated about conception and birth control." But when I look at the poor people in America who might have 4 children before age 25, that is also true even with universal education in a rich country.

      Yeah Corey Stoll doesn't look good with a beard unless he wears a wig. He was handsome on the tv show Billions recently, where he plays an impact investor that is always wearing luxury suits.

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    24. I think the reason why people make such poor decisions is because they want to find a purpose in life. If I may be blunt, working class people with crap jobs (remember the kind where they switch off their brains and just do as they are told) can be left feeling totally bored and devoid of any sense of purpose in their lives. Hence when you hear someone making a statement like "family is so important" - a truth translator would translate that sentence as "I am being treated like crap at work where my boss yells at me as if I am a total idiot, I work long hours for so little money and I hate my life - but when I am a parent, wow I have another human being who is totally dependent on me and I have the right to order this little child around, I'm actually in charge when I am with my young child, quite unlike at work, when I am being treated like an imbecile who can't be trusted." You would be amazed how many people feel like that and have children for that reason: it fulfills a need for them even if they ignore the fact that are totally not in a position to provide for a child and thus is dooming that child to a lifetime of hardship.

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    25. Hmm, I didn't think about the autonomy part at all. In a few of your posts you talked about how some jobs require one to be a literal robot who is piloted by someone else. I remember one of my teachers in primary school once taught us about the concept of foster care and adoption, and said "for almost every job you need to be educated and obtain a qualification, except being a parent. Now isn't that strange?" But people don't want to implement an unPC-like policy of "family is only a privilege of the wealthy." In China's lie-flat movement it might as well be.

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    26. Imagine if you had a shitty job, like if you worked in a supermarket and all you did was stack the shelves - you would be told, "we're running low on packets of flour in aisle 9, go to the store room, get enough stock to fill that shelf now. Once you're done with that, come back to me, I think we're running low on eggs on aisle 11 but you do the flour first." All you did in your shift all day long was to respond to instructions to get this product or that product from the store room and then refill the shelves. Not only is it boring but it's that complete lack of control - you are treated like a child all day long as you just do as you're told. Some people in that kind of position actually get a pet because it is refreshing to have someone else (even if it is a cat or a dog) you're in charge of for a change, whilst others desperately need to be in charge of another human, so they have a child only to fill that need to fill like an adult for a change after being treated like a child all day at work. I see that in my parents actually, when my nephew was very young they totally enjoyed spending time with him but even they have grown increasingly distant from him now that he is 18 and they're not in any kind of position to help him with his school work. Kinda sad really, I think my parents need to get a dog - it would make them very happy to have a dog totally dependent on them for everything.

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    27. I never thought of that since I've never worked any kind of job where I'm told what to do step by step. Right now in my life I like being told what to do on the weekends or after work, especially by a coach at a sports club. Hmm, I guess you can say working class people aren't mentally challenged or stimulated enough by their jobs that the challenge of child-rearing doesn't sound like too much of a mental burden, even if it is a huge financial burden. Meanwhile people who make more money using their ideas are already tapped out on the intellectual side by 6pm on a weekday. Adding a child to that middle to upper class lifestyle is burdensome on the mind even if it isn't on the wallet. I know because it was so easy for my parents to buy me clothes, food, vacations, books, music lessons, etc., yet so difficult just to show up to school events or help with homework. But my parents did have amazing social lives with huge circles of friends. Though even with nannies and tutors keeping the kids busy, rich people don't usually have more than 3 kids as to keep up their amazing social life whilst functioning in high-stress innovation-based working environments.

      I think the issue with having a dog is that no stranger is going to give your parents praise for raising it compared to raising a grandchild. If they wanted a dog or any other pet they would've gotten one long ago. Lots of Chinese people like to keep goldfish.

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    28. Well you're lucky! Doing a job where you have to follow instructions like that would probably leave you feeling quite bored and restless - but let me also point out that stimulation comes in many forms. I was on the train the other day when I saw a few working class guys laughing their heads off over a TikTok video which involved slapstick humour. OK I would probably laugh at the kind of video where a fat person slips and falls over but I wouldn't share it just in case a friend like you thought I was not intellectual, that I liked this kind of puerile humour. But if you're that working class then that's the level of intellectual stimulation you seek after working all day in a working class job, you are satisfied by watching a slapstick video on Tiktok. But even people like that do crave the feeling of being in charge and hence that's one of the reasons why poor people in that position tend to want to have children far more than you. You already get that feeling from your professional career - they don't.

      I don't think anyone is going to praise my parents for what they have done as grandparents - I've gone out of my way to tell people how awful they are as grandparents and I've even had conversations with my nephew when I had to tell him that my parents are totally wrong, that he shouldn't listen to them when they talk rubbish and he gets it. He knows his grandparents are stupid.

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    29. There's nothing wrong with watching a good TikTok haha. But I get your point, people seek entertainment from their personal life if their professional life doesn't fulfill them. Sigh, recently I'm feeling the cutthroat nature of innovative jobs. There is a huge ceiling if you can come up with the best ideas, but absolutely no safety net if you don't come up with any. But then again I cannot imagine having a kid on a low budget, that is definitely no safety net either. I worry for the kid more than myself.

      Btw have you seen the new Netflix series "Squid Game"? It's about some desperately indebted working class people signing up to play a deadly game show for prize money. For some reason South Korean dramas like to paint capitalism as some sort of dystopia, while the west takes a more lax view. Like you hardly see working class mothers with 6 kids in Asia. I dunno if it's because there is no support for single mothers there, or much social welfare in the first place, which makes capitalism a dystopia with no safety net.

      Yeah but not many strangers would know exactly what they do as grandparents. You know because you're their family. I'm just saying there is social capital to be gained from being a parent or grandparent, even if you're a shitty one. People always act better in public than in private.

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    30. I have heard a lot about Squid Game, mostly because there is apparently a very good looking Korean actor in it but I read the synopsis and now I am interested. I have just started a Swedish box set - as a rule, I only consume entertainment in another language other than English so I'm definitely keen on this if it is good. My partner once suggested a K-drama series but we both gave up after 1 episode as it was waaaaaay too slow moving.

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    31. Oh and here's one thing we actually have Amanda: empathy. You wouldn't want to be a parent unless you are able to be a good one because you're able to see things from the child's point of view. Well a lot of people aren't like that - they have no empathy, they're totally autistic and they go onto become autistic, terrible parents.

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    32. There is a very handsome korean actor in it, he plays the cop! Oh yeah normal Korean TV is very slow, I cannot stand those types of dramas so have never watched any of them. Korean movies are great though, very fast paced. I've watched a few , Oldboy, "The King"(2017), and this other movie about cops taking down an MLM. Squid Game is more like a movie than a TV show, it was originally envisioned as a thriller movie too.

      I cannot stand selfish parents who like having a child to lord over who can never argue back on even footing. It's these types of people who can't keep adult friends or lovers around because they can't handle compromise or empathy.

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    33. Squid game is definitely on my list of things to watch! I am currently watching a Swedish drama that is set in Thailand and it's very intriguing. It is called Farang: Dead Man Walking and it is about a Swedish man who has run away from Sweden, he is a fugitive who has found a quite life working in a beach resort in Thailand where he seems to have found a quiet piece of paradise. Then one day, the daughter whom he had abandoned back in Sweden shows up - she is 15 and she turns his world upside down. He goes out of his way to avoid her at first but when she gets caught up with the nasty drug gangs and mafia, he has to try to rescue her but as the story progresses, we find out that neither father nor daughter have been totally honest with each other and there are so many twists in each episode, along with the exotic setting of Thailand, it is definitely worth checking out. The characters speak in a mix of Swedish, Thai and English so I'm offered enough foreign languages to keep me happy!

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    34. Lol it seems like a stereotype for westerners to dream of moving to Southeast Asia and enjoy a tropical paradise by the beach with consistently good weather. But what intrigues me is the "fish out of water" international experience of the Swedes in Thailand, or how the Thai people react to living and working alongside foreigners. It reminds me of my childhood growing up amongst many expats in Southeast Asia. Btw I googled the show, and it's "dead man running" and not walking haha. I'm trying to find a US streaming service with it, but can't(I even tried vpn on channel 4, didn't work. These companies are getting smart). It seems there's all these shows in Europe that are licensed to the continent that just haven't found a buyer for the US distribution.

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    35. I think we all crave what we don't have, it's human nature to believe the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. So for the Swedes, it is a tropical beach in Thailand with golden sand, coconut trees and it is always 33 degrees at lunchtime. Whereas for me, I crave the opposite of all that and am so glad we're now in winter time; it is currently 11 degrees in London and there's no hot weather till at least April-May next year.

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