My opinion is that I don't think the Democrats care all that much for the poor either, they favor globalization and environmentalism. And that means loss of factory/mining jobs.
Democrat policies to these poor are very in their face, sure they may get more welfare but they lose their ability to make a living. Much akin to taking someone's kidneys but giving them a dialysis machine. Republican policies are more kicking these poor while they're down, when they already don't have/lost the ability to make noise about it. Democrats are more socially progressive but economically speaking they're not really any less on the right with Republicans, which pisses these poor even more. Both parties hate the poor.
For now, the right wing populists offer a simple answer which is easy to understand, blame the "other" and once they're gone things would be better. No different from the Communists with capitalists/land owners or the fascists with the minority races. For people in the US and UK, things were better in living memory so it's easier to convince them of that. Brazil well, if I'm willing to bet that the fairer they are , the past was brighter for them.
Hi Bay, this reminds me of something I talked about with my family over the weekend. The question was about why people still smoke despite the fact that we have good information regarding the consequences of smoking on your health? The conclusion is that humans are irrational (or you can use the words foolish, silly, dumb, stupid or something to the same effect). When one smokes, one thinks about the pleasure that the cigarette will give us for the next few minutes, one doesn't think about getting lung cancer 10 or 15 years from now. Likewise, if I have a great big slice of chocolate cake in front of me, I eat it knowing the pleasure it will give me in the next few moments, I block out the consequences of obesity induced by such a high fat + sugar diet. People are irrational in thinking short term and make poor decisions, sometimes we need a parent or nanny-state to tell us "don't smoke, it is bad for you" and literally make that decision on our behalf if we can't be trusted to be rational.
On the issue of the loss of factory and mining jobs - yes there will be short term pain of unemployment, but in the long run, the world will no longer be dependent on fossil fuels, we have to turn to alternatives like solar, wind and other forms of renewable energy as we run out of coal and oil. Likewise, manufacturing jobs will inevitably be lost to places like China and Vietnam where labour costs are so much lower and there's just no way a factory in America can be profitable when competing with an Indian or Chinese factory.
The only way to keep these factory jobs is to pour in government subsidy - an enormous amount of government subsidies to keep these factories open and keep these workers employed in manufacturing despite the fact that there's just no way they can compete with their counterparts in India/China. A government thinking about the next election around the corner will promise to keep the factory open by pouring tax payers' money into the factory to keep it open, a government thinking of long term consequences will simply allow the factory to go out of business then deal with retraining the unemployed workers to help them transition to other parts of the economy where they can make a living.
So that's short term vs long term. What kind of government does the country want? Do you want to pay a lot of taxes only for your tax money to prop up totally unprofitable businesses that would collapse the moment the government withdraws all those subsidies? It makes no economic sense at all. But like I mentioned above, people are stupid, really stupid, foolish, dumb, ignorant, foolish idiots.
I think you're harsh on both the democrats and the republicans because the problem (as I see it) are not with the parties, but it is with the poor themselves. They're poor because they're stupid. They make very bad decisions. And to compound the situation, they're even harder to help because they are that stupid. Hence they are open to exploitation if someone decides to tell them what they wanna hear to buy their votes - Trump has already done that, but has done little to help the poor in America but there's a part of me that just shrugs my shoulders and thinks, that's Trump for you. He's not as dumb as he seems - he did win the 2016 election by duping the poor working class Americans en masse.
I don't disagree with you on the fact that factory and mining jobs are going to disappear in the developed countries. The sort of benefits and pay that American workers got was ridiculous in the first place, though it made sense initially. Even China is facing the problem of its low cost industries going overseas.
I don't know that even trying to retrain the workers would work, there's just too much in depth knowledge required now. You're not making a coal worker with high school qualifications learn how to manage a network of robots, I picked up programming at 30 and I struggle to make sense of the complex software architecture and algorithms that the 20s breeze through. To the victor goes the spoils is going to be a much more serious problem in the next decade.
Perhaps, but I think I'm closer to the truth than most Americans are of their politicians. It's not possible for them to legislate their way out of this, there's too much competing interests within the system and they're not willing to admit that the rest of the world has caught up and could now compete with them.
I don't know, stupid is a very binary term for me. Professionally, I can't accept that as an answer to build coding solutions. Trump exploited the dissatisfaction, he didn't start any of the dumpster fires, only fanning them. He just has no clue about what to do next as long as he gets to say he won(No difference from Boris and Nigel I guess). Not dumb, definitely smart enough to be dangerous and cause a great deal of damage.
I don't look at the Americans that voted Trump as dumb(Some are fairly wealthy) . I look at them and see desperation. They voted Trump because they see Hillary as keeping the decline going.
Hi Bay. Well if I may point you to the UK in the 1980s as a case study, when Margaret Thatcher got into power as our first female PM ever, she inherited a country in steep decline: the economy was stuck in the dark ages with manufacturing and mining. The pound was also very strong then, making exports difficult and so the previous Labour government (left wing) was pouring money into subsidizing these loss making industries to keep the voters happy, but they ran the economy into the ground with these socialist principles - well, calling it socialism isn't even fair, they were just a bunch of incompetent idiots who mismanaged the economy because they just cared about getting more votes rather than sorting the economy out. Thatcher was very unpopular at first when she pulled the plug on these loss-making industries, she closed everything from textile factories to steelworks to coal mines and there were riots in the streets. The period from 1977 to 1983 was a terrible period of turmoil for the UK when there was deep mistrust of the government but eventually Thatcher's gamble paid off when the UK emerged from the long and painful 1980s recession much stronger as a result of her policies to focus on growth industries like the sciences, tourism, IT and banking rather than manufacturing and mining. Without Thatcher, good grief, the UK would be as poor as Romania or Bulgaria. She was unapologetically right-wing and a capitalist and she delivered - she is still a deeply divisive figure today with half the country hating her whilst the other half worshiping her. I don't like her personality but I agree that she did the right thing.
So what happened in the 1980s when the manufacturing and mining workers got retrenched? Well in Thatcher's Britain, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. They became destitute, they were on benefits for years, became alcoholics and depressed. The government essentially gave up on them and these communities became extremely poor - but hey, these were areas located faaaaar away from London like North Wales, Lancashire and County Durham. The rich people in the South East weren't affected and the economy was doing well in the London area - thus the Londoners just shrugged their shoulders and say, "well, they should try harder. They only have themselves to blame if they are still poor when some of us are able to get so rich under Thatcher."
It is thus a fallacy to think that every one of those workers can be helped - under Thatcher, many were just abandoned and drank themselves to an early death. But won't they vote against her party at the next election you may ask? Well, that's again a calculated gamble - as long as there are enough happy people making plenty of money as stockbrokers, investment bankers, nuclear scientists and plastic surgeons in the new Britain than the disenfranchised ex-workers of factories and mines (now newly unemployed facing a very bleak future), then she can earn enough votes to form the next government.
Remember, Thatcher wasn't aiming to win a 100% mandate from the people. No, she needed to win just enough seats in the next parliament to be the majority party that goes on to form the next government with her as the PM. So she gambled on pleasing around 55% of the people by making them better off whilst alienating the 45% by making them a lot worse off.
Part 2: Not that I am a big fan of Thatcher, but she was pragmatic. She knew there were people like ex-miners who could never be retrained to do another profession. All they can do is mining and if you close the mine, they were become long term unemployed, depressed and drink themselves to an early death. When you tell her about that, she would give you a cold long stare and then eventually say, "do I look as if I care?" Her gamble worked and gosh, people think that the UK is rich but we're divided into the South-East and London region which is extremely wealthy and people in the depressed areas who are living in really terrible conditions akin to the worst areas you'll find in Eastern Europe. I have visited some of these areas in the UK before and I can barely believe I'm still in the same country - I feel like, "oh I've stepped into a time machine and this is what Britain was like in the 1960s". We have had two Labour (left-wing) prime ministers - Blair and Brown, neither could lift these depressed areas out of poverty. The fact is whether the government is left or right wing, the poor are still fucked either way.
Millions of American voted for Trump because even a very popular, left wing president like Obama could lift millions out of poverty - it is mission impossible. They voted for Trump as a protest vote. But as Thatcher demonstrated, you can't lift the poor out of poverty even if you do the full Swedish thing and tax the rich at 76% to redistribute that money to the poor - even the Swedish model doesn't produce satisfactory results.
So you have two strategies:
Thatcher: Fuck the poor, alienate poorer working class voters, but reach out to the middle classes and hope that between the rich and the emerging middle classes, you can get at least 51% of the vote and win that election whilst sticking your middle finger out at poor people, mouthing the words, "fuck you".
Trump: Lie to the poor that he's going to do all these things for them and then do nothing because he is an incompetent, lying, dishonest bastard.
Between the two, I prefer Thatcher. At least she is honest about exactly what she was going to do to the poor people of this country. Trump lied to the poor, but that's exactly what he does - he just lies about everything, everyday.
Alex, Thatcher sounds a lot like the Democrats in America. So it isn't a myth that the democrats in America are basically the center-right party in Canada/Australia/UK/Germany/other OECD country.
The thing is though... the country did still roll on didn't it? Society didn't collapse even though the UK eliminated coal and manufacturing. The main argument for capitalism is that the need to earn one's keep is necessary to maintain society, such that people will clean the streets, produce energy, produce goods, build new buildings, etc. But it seems in this case, life can go on even with a huge swathe of the country unemployed. I guess that's the argument for a universal basic income, that societies have gotten so technologically advanced that we do not need 100% use of human capital just to keep everyone clothed, fed, and housed. With robots coming along that may drive that argument even further, as they will put a lot of low-skill but high dexterity jobs out of work.
Well Thatcher's Conservative government were seen as the right wing villains but by American standards, they would be centrist, even left wing. The British Labour government would be seen as some tree hugging hippies high on marijuana whilst the Green party would be the stuff of fantasies. The yardsticks and goalposts are so completely different in America compared to the rest of the world.
And yes, Thatcher's gamble worked - a portion section of the country experienced horrific economic hardship after she shut down the unprofitable mines and factories but as long as that number of people numbered less than 50%, she could keep the majority happy. The majority were the emerging middle class who found good jobs in the modern economy, within sectors like banking, education, tourism, IT and other service industries. So the poor working class were left to rot, to suffer and these people would never ever vote for Thatcher anyway as they saw her as the devil, so she was like, well screw you lot then, you're never going to support me so I am now going to make your life hell whilst I know I can comfortably win the next election. I don't need a 100% mandate, just 50.1% will do thank you.
Lol America is so right-wing we don't even have universal healthcare. You can't go around supporting the green party here without being seen as an anti-capitalistic lunatic, even by Democrat standards. But in the UK the Labor party gets behind coalminers, while in the US it's the Republican party. Maybe its because a lot of the rich supporters of the Republican party that work in traditional media feel under attack by the big software companies which tend to align Democrat (Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon).
In hindsight, Thatcher did make a sacrifice that did modernize the UK's economy. Coal couldn't last forever, and a country whose wealth is built on natural resources is doomed to fail. The only problem with a modern economy is that it makes it very hard for people with little education and skills to find work, and a lot of people aren't keen on studying their whole lives just to stay up to date. Of course this isn't 50% or more of people, so that works in Thatcher's favor, shrewd. Ugh, lately because of Covid I just don't have the mental health to get up and do science. I have 2 math textbooks to read in 2 weeks for research purposes, and I'm binge-watching netflix and putting it off as long as I can. And the thing is I get paid to study, while most people don't, so I see why retraining is so difficult.
What do you think is the right approach? Make it easier for everyone to study all the time, or make surviving require less study through a universal basic income? Of course we can still preserve the highly skilled high paying jobs like banking or software engineering, but for the 80% of other jobs that are more precarious, what is the most practical option?
To be fair, Labour didn't support the coal miners either - allow me to explain, prior to Thatcher's victory in 1979, the UK had a Labour prime minister (James Callaghan 1976 - 1979) and he lost control of the situation. In that period, the mines were losing a lot of money at that stage and in response to that, the miners organized strikes to demand more and more government subsidies to keep the mines open with the argument that if you close the mines, then entire communities will collapse (which is 100% true) because the mines employ so many people and there is no alternative employment. Callaghan mostly gave into the miners but couldn't satisfy them as they just kept demanding more and more and more - the economy went into a downward spiral, tailspin and was crashing, inflation was high, the government was broke and the miners were holding the country to ransom as many of the power stations were still reliant on coal as fuel then and without enough coal, the electricity supply would be interrupted.
The rest of the country looked on at Callaghan supporting the miners and the miners walking all over him and thought, this is ridiculous. Our country is a joke, our economy has crashed and his prime minister has messed it all up - so from the point of view of the coal miners, the Labour government and Callaghan were the enemy. You may have looked at that situation and thought, well Callaghan was far more of a friend of the miners than Thatcher, but that wasn't the case from their perspective; the miners hated both Callaghan and Thatcher. They hated the government, never mind if they were from the left or the right, they were only loyal to their own trade unions. Of course, Callaghan's mismanagement of the situation with the miners and the crash of the British economy in the 1970s led to Thatcher storming to victory in the 1979 election because people were desperate for change - they needed someone to come and clear up the mess and placed their faith in Thatcher within that context.
I know Trump supported the coal miners but the situation in the UK was quite a different one indeed. Trump just wanted their votes - but I believe that Callaghan and Thatcher were desperately trying to do their best in a messy situation when trying to rescue the British economy from the verge of collapse. She succeeded where Callaghan failed because she was willing to use tactics like denying strikers and their families any welfare benefits, mass arrests and she acted like a communist dictator with very heavy handed methods - she wiped out the mines, these economies did go into deep decline with mass unemployment and a lot of suffering, but she sacrificed those mining communities to save the rest of the economy. It was a gamble and as long as those people numbered less than 50% of the electorate, she did the maths and realized the odds were good - so her policy was "fuck the miners, they can starve to death for all I care, their children can beg in the streets whilst I drink champagne - tough shit, that's what I was elected to do." And this policy was actually pretty popular with the rest of the ordinary civilian population who were desperate for the economy to improve. One needs to see this from the point of view of the majority, ie. people not employed in the mining & manufacturing industry and how they felt about Thatcher's methods.
There is no perfect solution of course, no way. The UK doesn't provide any kind of template for the US as we've messed up the situation - Callaghan made such a massive mess that Thatcher had to try to clear up using pretty extreme measures that meant subjecting those mining communities to a lot of hardship, starvation and suffering for a generation whilst the rest of the country looked on with no sympathy at all for the miners. All I can say is that the UK provides a case study of "here's what not to do, avoid making this dumb mistake."
To be clear, the British government did very little for these mining communities after the mines were closed down - those communities experienced a lot of poverty, alcoholism, high rates of unemployment and were essentially left to rot and starve for a generation. The unemployed ex-miners were given unemployment benefits which enabled them to have a roof over their heads, buy food and have a very basic survival, but they didn't want a life like that - when they were miners, they are least had a job, they had the skills to work in a mine and they were proud of what they did as miners. That was taken away from them when the mines closed and Thatcher's attitude was simple - the mines were a relic from a previous generation, get with it, go find work elsewhere and whilst it may not be well paid work, but you can at least go stack shelves in a supermarket or do some other unskilled work in your communities. The problem was that there were only so many jobs left in those communities - the problem was that the salaries of the miners supported a lot of local businesses, so the local shop where the miners bought their boots and equipment closed down because the miners no longer had the need for this equipment - the supplier of the equipment sold in the shop then also closed down and etc etc, you see the chain reaction set off the moment the mines closed. Callaghan was afraid of that chain reaction and so he prevented it from happening whilst he was prime minister, Thatcher wasn't afraid to face the inevitable and her attitude was, so be it, it will be very painful but it has to happen.
But to answer your question, no, successive British governments have failed to address the issue of unemployed ex-miners. They merely kicked the can down the road until it no longer was an issue. If a miner was 25 years old in 1985 when the mine closed, then that was a good 35 years ago and that miner would be 60 years old today. The government would now look at the 60 year old and say, "you're too old to retrain, it won't be a good use of our resources to teach you anything new, we're just going to classify you as retired so sweep that problem under the carpet because you've spent the last 35 years unemployed." The problem will go away in a generation by that token, these ex-miners will eventually reach retirement age then die at some stage. But the longer you keep mines open in America, the longer it will take to get to that stage where you no longer have angry ex-miners living in poverty protesting the government. Thatcher wasn't perfect but I do approve of what she did by closing the mines.
Hmm... I kinda wonder why the tech industry isnt like the energy industry where coalminers can be upstaged by oil drilling in the North Sea. Floppy disks and hard drives have gone out, but it seems these people just work on SSDs instead. I guess the issue with coalminers compared to floppy disk engineers is that its a manual labor job, and the only other jobs they could get are manual labor but probably less well paid (unless it was being a plumber).
I dont disagree with Thatcher if coal was just not as competitive as other forms of energy. The issue is that there arent enough former coalminers elected as MPs to deal with the human cost of the fallout. In America even the Democrats are deeply classist, they assume that if you are laid off or your job is automized, you should take on 1000s of dollars of debt and go back to university, preferably in computer science (the learn to code movement here is even more cringe than Fatimah's next job).
I guess the moral of the story is that society is unkind to the uneducated. This problem probably goes beyond coal, it also applies to the people who didnt finish school and ended up stacking shelves at Tesco's or driving for uber since those may be automized soon.
Btw I notice the way Sg tries to handle this is by giving working adults free money to take subsidized courses at the government universities part-time. I dont know how successful that is, but its much less risky than a full time degree. The UK equivalent of that would be subsidized night school at UCL for working adults I suppose.
1. Goodness me, UCL does NOT do night classes for working adults. Allow me to explain. There's a lot of snobbery associated with the universities at the top of the league tables. Their prestige comes from the fact that you need to have excellent grades in order to earn yourself a place there and if you don't have the grades, there's no "back door" route to claim you "studied at UCL" simply by taking a night class there. Only universities at the bottom of the league tables who are so desperate for cash would run such courses - otherwise universities like UCL are way too snobbish to deal with the kind of people who would attend "night school for working adults". To be fair, there are places like City Lit https://www.citylit.ac.uk/ which do run "night school" type courses and I do know of a few universities much lower down the league tables that do so, but not the best universities. Oh they won't allow such types to darken their doorways with their presence on campus. British snobbery, you know. There is no obligation on the part of universities to educate everybody including the unwashed masses - Oxford for example decides you focus on the top 0.01% and look, they followed that formula and came up with a vaccine for Covid-19. Funny how the university of Brighton (at the bottom of the league table) didn't come up with the vaccine, oh that's because the people studying there aren't as intelligent.
2. The coal industry was a mess because coal was a vital resource that kept the power stations running in the 1970s and 1980s - so even though digging the coal out was dirty, manual labour, the work was relatively well paid for a simple reason: the miners formed very powerful labour unions which meant that they demanded pay increase after pay increase, "give us what we want or the country won't have electricity." It got so bad that in 1973, the UK had a 3-day working week because there wasn't enough electricity to run the factories (like steelworks) 5 days a week - the country had plenty of coal but the government couldn't buy the coal from the mines at a decent price for the power stations because the mine owners had to pay their miners such high salaries because of their labour unions. They held the country ransom and basically, Thatcher came in like the headmistress and said, "enough of this rubbish, things have to change and I am here to shut down the mines. This is no way to run a country." So she punished the miners by making them unemployed, plunging the mining communities into poverty and merely laughed as those communities starved and suffered abject poverty for a whole generation - that's just payback for holding the country ransom during the 1970s, now it is payback time and not only will you suffer, your children will suffer and your children's children will suffer. It was beyond cruel, it was vicious. But the miners did get too greedy, if they had worked with the government instead of against the government, who knows how things might have turned out.
3. So in the case of the UK, it wasn't just that we were unkind to the uneducated miners - they were often remembered as greedy people who were a lot better paid than other manual workers like bus drives, construction workers and factory workers. What they did through their labour unions would be the equivalent of nurses and doctors striking in the middle of the Covid-19 pandemic, claiming, "we're not going to work unless the government gives us a 50% pay rise right now, hurry up because the patients in the ICU are dying but we're not returning to save their lives until you agree to our demands." That's why many Brits were happy to see the kind of payback Thatcher delivered to the mining communities because she really made them suffer for over a generation. What they did was immoral but what she did was by the same token quite vicious.
4. Not everyone is a fan of Thatcher (I have mixed emotions about her, I like some things she did and I hate other things she did), but at least she worked her ass off trying to get this country back on track when it was in a very deep recession and the previous Labour government had left her a big stinking pile of poo to inherit - she had to clean up the horrific mess the previous Labour government left behind and she would work 17, 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. Her personal staff said she often got by on 4 hours of sleep a night, sometimes less. I do recognize that she did take her job very seriously and she wanted to be remembered as the prime minister who made the country better, not the prime minister who left things worse. Now compare that to Trump who is either playing golf or spending his time tweeting about conspiracy theories whilst thousands of Americans are dying everyday from Covid-19. At least Thatcher is still a much better leader than Trump. She had far more balls than he would ever have.
Hahahaha, true about Trump playing golf and probably not taking Corona as seriously as he should. I have a Dutch friend who once said "our Prime Minister (Mark Rutte) is working 70-80 hours a week just to manage the pandemic within the Netherlands. I don't imagine Trump is willing to do the same, so the situation in the US does not surprise me." Btw Alex, Thatcher actually has a degree in Chemistry from Oxford, working under a Nobel Prize winner (Dorothy Hodgkin). I see why she didn't like the coal industry, because it represents the stone age to a scientist like herself.
I didn't mean literally that UCL has night classes, they probably don't because the UK is snobbier than SG. In SG because its a dictatorship the government can force NUS/NTU/SMU/SUTD to offer these courses even if they don't want to. However most of the night school courses are offered through SIT or the rebranded SUSS (formerly SIM). I do know some SUTD professors hate offering these courses because they'd rather spend time on research than help an adult worker retrain.
Hmm... The thing about the coalminers is that they couldn't compete with more automatized forms of energy extraction like oil-drilling. In comparison to coalmining which is done by hand, oil drilling is done by machines which are staffed by highly trained engineers. My dad once hired an engineer who worked as a consultant on short-term contracts around the world, and that engineer cost the drilling company 5000 dollars a day, plus expenses. But without this engineer who magically fixed their equipment problems, the company would have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars per day.
The thing is, engineers like that consultant don't have unions, yet they can still make a decent salary. This is because they can deliver cheaper energy by increasing their productivity(improve the machine) without reducing their salary. The same can't be said for human manual labor, unfortunately. And I guess the UK government and people, and rightly so, wasn't willing to pay for that anymore.
This makes me think, when people say don't do a degree in computer science/engineering because there might not be enough jobs in that industry, I think they should go for it anyway. They may not get into the sector they originally wanted, but the mathematical knowledge may be put towards a totally different industry, as long as it has machines that produce a new useful product that the engineer can improve over time. This is better than working at a manual labor job where it isn't possible to improve productivity past a certain point. I myself started out in electrical engineering and quantum physics, but I got bored with how slow progress occurs in the semiconductor industry, and now work in robotics where a lot more advancements have been happening lately.
Anyway, in summary, in the energy/manufacturing industries, it is better to be an engineer building and improving a machine than to be "the machine" that pulls things apart/puts them together, which can't be improved.
Hi Amanda, a quick reply as I have a lot on my plate today, a long reply will follow later today once I get the working day out of the way. But I wanted to point out that top universities like UCL will NEVER EVER have night classes for adults looking to improve themselves - this is purely out of snobbery. Why is it so hard to get into top universities like Oxford and UCL? It is because you need to meet their impossibly high standards in order to score a place there and that's their brand image they are protecting - ie. we deal with the best of the best, the brightest talents in the world. So that's the exclusivity that comes with the brand image they need to protect from a marketing point of view.
Would Tiffany's ever launch a $5 bracelet that everyone can buy as a present this Christmas? Hell no, Tiffany & Co pride themselves in being EXCLUSIVE, that means being so expensive that poor people can never afford anything in their stores - it is only for rich people. Launching a $5 bracelet will destroy their image of being an exclusive high class brand. The same issue applies to top universities like UCL running night classes - that's the same as Tiffany's launching a $2 bracelet for Christmas, like no Amanda, hell no. Stop for a moment and try to think like a business professional. No sane brand will destroy their brand identity by doing something like that - the damage is irreparable.
So you wrote "UCL probably don't" have night classes - I'm objecting to your use of "probably", I'm explaining that HELL NO, they will NEVER EVER in a million years ever run something like that because it is going to hurt their reputation of being exclusive. Hell no, like just NEVER. NEVER NEVER NEVER. No freaking way. Which part of NEVER do you not get? Like no no no no no no no. Some exclusive brands will never do something like that to hurt their reputation. Never.
Lol so exclusivity is a huge part of the brand in the UK. A few universities in America, including some elite ones, have these online certificate programs to make a quick buck. But yeah I guess they will never run part-time programs that would grant the same degree as a full-time student just like UCL. Alright my mistake.
Btw recently I found out I have access to the Penn Club of New York because my uni is affiliated with them. I was thinking of going there to network when corona is over, but its an elitist club(you have to graduate from xyz university to get in). Though it seems easier to talk to people who came from similar universities than talking to strangers over linkedin. When universities are exclusive I guess its all about preserving the networking opportunities.
1. Firstly, from the business perspective, you have to weigh up the pros and the cons. So you can make a quick buck from cheap online certificate programmes that allows quite stupid people to claim that "hey I studied at this prestigious elite university" despite not having met their strict admission criteria. The damage done to the brand is huge because people will then question, "did you do their online programme or did you qualify for their undergraduate programme by meeting their impossibly high admission criteria?" This then taints even the genuinely talented and intelligent graduates by confusing the quality of the goods. That's as bad as Tiffany's launching a range of "under $10 Christmas gifts - what a bargain!" Then the next time someone gives you something from from Tiffany's, you'll wonder if it is from the expensive range or the bargain basement. Sure loads of people will buy the $10 xmas gift from Tiffany but in making a quick buck, you have well and truly TRASHED the good name of the company by associating yourself with cheap trash. You're a scientist, I'm a businessman - trust me when I tell you that I know a lot more about sales & marketing and how important brand image is to any organization including universities. If a university is dumb enough to make a quick buck at the risk of tarnishing their reputation, then that's a very dumb move. I believe you that some universities have made that mistake - it doesn't change the fact that it is still a hideously dumb mistake to make and it will affect their ability to attract donors and funding in the long run; big organizations will pick the best universities to work with on important research projects and they will pick the ones who only work with the brightest talent, not the ones who will teach anyone who will pay the fees.
2. I tend to talk to people from the same part of my industry (quite niche) as opposed to people from the same university because if they studied something completely different like chemistry, law or history then I have nothing in common with them I'm afraid.
1. Oh I guess I was thinking accessibility was a good thing because it may get talented students who didn't apply the normal route. But that's me as a scientist thinking of the collective good, instead of the personal good to an institution. Business is the latter, and universities are a big business I suppose. Personally, I don't know whether it is morally right/wrong for universities to be like this. I like how my university has a big bank balance to spend on scholarships and covid protections so their students can study in peace. But to do so they have to admit only people who will be successful enough to donate to the university later in life, or those with rich parents (10% acceptance rate).
In contrast, in developed countries not the UK/US, universities are more egalitarian. University of Toronto is the best university in Canada, but has a 43% acceptance rate since they take in a wide variety of students. However, this means the bright students going to U of Toronto don't have as good branding as the bright students attending Harvard/UCL, but it means a less than bright student is more likely to go to university in Canada than in the US/UK.
I guess its just up to a country how much help they want to give the brightest students versus everyone else. If universities were left to operate as businesses then they would definitely only invest in the brightest students since they are safer investments. It seems UK/US universities, including UCL, are definitely run as a business haha.
2. Uh yeah, I really should get out of my comfort zone when approaching people. Scientific conferences or tech conferences are probably better for networking, even if they have more people in a less intimate setting.
Yes from that point of view, you're thinking about "what can I do to improve society to help less privileged kids who may be bright but never got the support they needed to access higher education", but that's not always what comes to mind when universities consider what they need. It is a higher competitive environment - certainly the universities in the top 10 in the UK are jostling hard with each other; even between Oxford and Cambridge, they are always trying to outdo each other because education is big business here in the UK and I suppose I'm the businessman, you're the scientist - we can both look at the same issue and respond very differently. Let me give you a story from the UK from quite a few years ago but the principle is the same: there was an exclusive designer, very expensive high-end clothes for women. At the end of the autumn-winter season, they destroyed left over stock instead of discounting it and then restocked their boutiques with the spring-summer season. When asked why they preferred to destroy the stock (literally, the clothes were shredded and then dumped in the rubbish skip) instead of being sold of at a discounted price or even donated to charity, they replied that their brand is so exclusive they don't want to be associated with discounts or sales and that doing so would cheapen their brand. And as for donating it to charity, they said they would rather make a donation to a charity than give them unsold clothes, because the poor people might then flog it cheaply on eBay, creating a secondary market for their clothes at a much lower price online and thus cheapening the brand. So they stood by their decision to shred millions of dollars worth of designer clothing to point where it is worthless and only fit for the dustbin - you may think, whaaaaat? Don't you wanna sell that off at a discount and get some money for it rather than nothing for it (and have to pay for it to be shredded and disposed of on top of that)? But such is the nature of defending the exclusive nature of an elite, luxury brand. You do what is best for the profits in the long run and any desire to do some good, help the poor, help the community - all that goes out of the window. To be fair to this brand, they did say, "yes we do make charitable donations to charity, here is a long list of charities we have given money to - we have helped these people a lot but we are not going to cheapen our brand, that's just bad for business and anyone in business will understand that very basic principle we abide by."
Thus by the same token, Oxford remains highly exclusive and only available to the top 0.001% who have proven themselves worthy of Oxford's extremely high standard. In abiding by those exclusive standards to shut out 99.999% of the population, they have focused on the brightest talents in the world and have come up with a vaccine that will allow life to return to normal. You get miracles like that when you shut out 99.999% of the general population who are not in the 0.001% - that's only possible when you focus all your energies on the best of the best. So poor people can benefit from this vaccine that would not have been possible if Oxford decided to be more inclusive and help disadvantaged kids from working class families.
Now don't get me wrong, there are universities are various governmental bodies that help these disadvantaged kids from working class families access higher education but that's the job of the government to do that and they don't place that burden on Oxford to get involved. Hell no. You leave Oxford alone and let them concentrate on the top 0.001% of the human species because you want miracles to come out of Oxford and let's not pretend that helping the poor kids from working class backgrounds will deliver miracles - no way, you're NOT going to get any kind of miracles from these kids. You're giving them social mobility, you're making sure they have a better life than their parents, you're giving them a brighter future but are they the top 0.001%? Hell no, far from it. Even if they are of the top 1%, that's just not good enough. You are totally incorrect in vastly overestimating the kind of "good" that will come out of helping these poor kids - we help them because that's the kind of responsibility any government would have but get real Amanda, these people will attain some sort of social mobility but will you get a vaccine that can save the world or a similar kind of miracle from such people? Hell no, not a chance. Never. Because they're not the top 0.0001% and that's why we need to let Oxford remain painfully exclusive. Other universities lower down the league tables can get on with helping the poor kids from the inner cities but leave Oxford alone to do their amazing miracles for humankind.
Currently there are about 24,000 students at Oxford. They attract the very best brains from around the world. Let's do some maths, there are about 1.2 billion adolescents between 10 - 19 in the world at the moment, let's say only those who are 18-19 can consider going to Oxford, so that's 20% = 0.24 billion or 240 million. Out of 240 million, Oxford can take in 24,000 at a time, so that's 1 in 10,000 or the top 0.0001% - okay you may argue that there may be bright American students who choose to go to Harvard or Yale instead of Oxford, but that's the kind of statistics we are dealing with. It's no good being in the top 1%, you need to be in the top 0.001% at least to even stand a chance and the reason why we follow this very discriminatory model to exclude 99.999% of the population is because incredible things happen when you put the very best brains of humankind together in the same room and they make miracles happen. You can't do that when you have some poor kid from the inner city who has been a charity case and granted the same access to that process - if that kid is in the top 0.0001% then please give him a place at Oxford, otherwise, please give him a place somewhere else less exclusive like a university ranked 11th in the league tables and let Oxford get on with doing what they do best.
Hmm, from that perspective your argument is quite rational. In the US people argue the ivy league should open their doors to disadvantaged children because they have the most resources to do so. But its not like other universities don't exist. And personally I dont think its the ivy league's problem to fix issues in K-12 education, thats just politicians passing the buck. Oh and I was gonna say University of Toronto invented insulin for diabetics, but it was not nearly as fast as a covid vaccine. And yeah you're quite right about how universities compete fiercely for students at the top. Especially the rich universities who arent quite ivy league ranked, they will invest more in scholarship money to pry away bright students to increase their rank next year.
But rich universities will accept people who will exaggerate their poor background since they are under fire for classism. Even poor kids hate that, because they say "I am more than my poverty, can I talk about something else of my character instead?" But high school counselors warn them the ivy league is more likely to accept stories of "adversity" instead. There was even a recent scandal about this where a highschool faked transcripts and wrote essays on behalf of students which lied about their parents drinking or being drug addicts to get them into Harvard and Yale. But these students didnt do well at Harvard and Yale and transferred out. I'm not saying poor people cant be bright. But the ivy league should accept poor students with good grades and some neat hobby that they showed talent and initiative with (like you with gymnastics), instead of accepting who is more willing to tell the most vivid sobstory instead of getting on with their life. Jeezus one of my classmates is like this, and instead of focusing on science he likes telling people every 5 minutes how he grew up poor, and bitching about how some of his classmates have yachts.
Just to return to the original topic of the blog post. I do think that inequality in higher education is a symptom rather than a cause of overall inequality in society, and this inequality drives people in the US/UK to vote for Trump/Brexit. It isn't possible to provide everyone an ivy-league level education because the students would have to pay for it somehow, either by becoming millionaires/billionaires and donating later in life, or heavy loans (NYU's business model, admit poor kids but give no scholarships). But it would be possible to at least provide more feasible pathways to a middle class life, even if it isn't an ivy league education, and most of the time it doesn't have to be. Like apprenticeships in Germany, which pay you a small stipend while you are training and lead to good jobs. Or even loan forgiveness of certain important jobs that don't pay that well, like schoolteacher or child psychologist. Unfortunately in America to be a teacher you have to get a masters degree in teaching on top of a bachelor's degree, and that discourages many people since the debt from both degrees will make life on a teacher's salary very difficult.
I think if certain groups didn't feel so marginalized or hopeless in the UK/US, then less people would bother with Brexit and Trump. I know in Germany they do have significant far right party support, but its only 12% of the country and not 51%. And of that 12%, most of them live in East Germany which still hasn't caught up economically with West Germany after the reunification. A German who I played boardgames with said that in East Germany when the economic situation worsened, the first people to leave for West Germany were the women and young people. So you get a situation of middle-aged poor straight men who grumble about not being able to find a job or wife, and vote far right.
1. Helping the poor should not come at the cost of impeding the work that top universities do - let Oxford get on with saving the world whilst the other universities can help these kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. It's a bit like kissing frogs - sure you can get a poor kid from a broken family who shows some promise, but granting that sob story case kid a place at a university is the very act of kissing a frog: he may turn into a prince, he may be just another frog. Should we force top universities to do this frog kissing exercise or can the government come up with a different body to address this inequality in society whilst allowing the universities to simply get on with what they do best?
2. I think it's quite disgraceful to allow a student to pass through the entire education being so neglected and then at the age of 18 or 19, beg the university to make an exception for this poor kid. Intervention by the government needs to be done much, much earlier if you want to help poor kids like that rather than place that responsibility on the universities after having turned their backs on that kid for the first 18 years of his life.
3. Yes the US turned to Trump out of desperation, as the ultimate protest vote but look what happened - the US then gave up on Trump and voted for Biden after having realized that protest votes don't really work. It's like those monks who pour petrol on themselves then set themselves on fire in order to make a protest - like great, you've made your point oh and you've reduced yourself to a pile of ashes in the process. What lengths would one go to in order to make a point when you really want to protest? Surely the point of the protest would be to want things to get better, rather than allow the act of protest to literally reduce you to a pile of ashes in the process of protesting?
4. Thus I turn your attention to the case study of Wales - they voted for Brexit as a protest vote because they're a lot poorer than England, they want to make a point and get our attention. Then they realize, holy shit, the EU pours a lot of money into Wales because we are so poor and now we're not going to get that help; the British government certainly has no money to replace that EU money we're about to lose, holy shit, we've made a terrible mistake. Yes they've made a point by protesting but have only hurt themselves in the process instead of making things better - just like the monk who set himself on fire as a gesture of protest.
Yeah, the ivy league/Oxbridge isn't to blame for how a poor kid was treated aged 0-18 years old. That's the fault of the government and public schools, but its easier for politicians to scapegoat someone else through op-eds in the New York Times every now and then. But in America I think this sob-story admission business is also classism. The schools probably want to admit a poor kid that they know won't succeed, just to prove to everyone why they should only stick to admitting rich and middle class kids. If they admitted poor kids who suddenly did better than lazy rich kids whose parents donated to the school, then that would seriously expose them.
Wow, nice metaphor with the monks immolating themselves. Yeah protesting doesn't achieve anything if you have zero leverage. And lol I didn't even know that the EU helped with UK poverty when the UK wouldn't, but that isn't surprising since the EU is more socialist and has more social programs. Frankly I don't know the solution to regional inequality in any country. Some countries have tried moving the capital city, bribing people to move out of dense areas and into less populated areas, or lowering taxes in certain regions to encourage companies to move there (Puerto Rico's case, but it didn't end well when the tax-breaks ended). Its just a bad hand to be dealt to not be born in an industrial center with more opportunities. Kinda makes me feel lucky I was born in a big city instead of a small town.
Hi Amanda, it's not that these Ivy League / Oxbridge type elite universities don't want to help, but it is totally unreasonable to place the responsibility of fixing the problem at their doorsteps when the government has done too little to help poor kids in the first 18 years of their education. No, the government has to do a lot more, a lot sooner and intervene when the kid is 5 years old, not wait till he is 18 and then pass the buck onto the universities. The governments need to do their jobs, not shirk their responsibilities by accusing these top universities of being too elitist. That's misrepresenting the situation.
The EU has a lot of programmes to help fund projects in areas within the EU to help alleviate poverty. So for example, https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/19-things-european-funding-done-10939396 everything from swimming pools to railway stations to museums to sports centers, even highways and universities and power stations have been funded by money from the EU. But that's what governments do, they fund infrastructure projects so it will generate jobs and then the infrastructure (such as a new university campus, a new highway, a new sports facility etc) will be there for years to benefit the local community and continue employing more locals, lifting them out of poverty. Well Wales can kiss goodbye to all that now, they were too dumb to think it through before biting the hand that feeds in that gesture of protest.
I think instead of begging elite schools to accept an unprepared 18 year old, it would be far wiser to ask them to collaborate with nearby disadvantaged schools to provide extra-curricular programs. Many schools quietly already do this, including mine. But it takes far more work and is less glamorous than forcing Harvard to take a kid with a sob-story, which politicians like to pat themselves on the back for.
Yeah, I agree with you that at the end of the day, Brexit wasn't about hating Europe at all. Brexit was about trying to hurt the "elites" in London, which tend to vote remain. Sad how it panned out though. Lol that welsh highway cost 800m pounds, of which a big chunk came from the EU. Yeah they really burned themselves, instead of getting more funding after Brexit, now they're getting less.
If a bright kid from a poor family has the grades to gain admission to Harvard or Oxford but cannot afford the fees, then sure give the poor kid a scholarship to s/he can complete that degree but if a poor kid from the inner city hasn't got the grades but has a compelling sob-story, then no, that's not up to the universities to fix that kid's problems in life.
Ironically, the areas in the UK which are probably going to do better after Brexit would be the city of London, notably the banking sector because we're now free to do a lot of things that were a lot more regulated under EU law but now we're free to make up our own rules. So the rich will get richer and areas like Wales will suffer even more without EU support. Oh dear. How's that protest vote going? They have made their point but they've well and truly burnt themselves in the process. Ouch.
@Amanda since you are no longer in SG let me enlighten you on the government giving free money for people to attend courses.
1) These are mainly just very basic language or skill courses nothing like an undergraduate course in NUS or NTU. In fact when I did my degree upgrade for my 2nd qualification I found out I could not utilise a single cent from this scheme.
2) I personally do not think the money is enough to be of any use. Most adults are given 1k and those over 40 get 1.5k (a driving license to be a taxi driver costs more than that). What is going to happen is that these training centres (PA etc) are just going to make a quick buck.
3) There is a common trope that you can lead a horse to water but can't force it to drink. My experience with these free training courses (I volunteer befriending elderly folks) is that everything they learnt just get forgotten. They are not going to use it to get a new skilled job (not enough training and/or motivation) or even apply the new knowledge in their daily lives.
4) Due to lack of competition, just like the recent SG discovery vouchers, course providers are just going to mark up the course price to increase their profits. So at the end of the day this "free" money is just a way to transfer tax payer monies to the rich.
I live in Tennessee and my family lives in Texas, both Trump states. Our observations about Trump voters is that they are exactly like your poor cousin who refused the school subsidy money. I find that funny since many American rich people will go through great lengths to pretend to be poor to get more scholarship money for their kids from universities, which award money based on need instead of merit.
But another thing is that the Republican party's plan for lifting people out of poverty is jobs, which is very attractive for poor people. This reminds me of one of your old blogposts about the bus driver who won the lottery but wasn't accepted by the other rich people at the local country club. Many poor republican voters don't want to be someone who got wealthy only because someone felt sorry for them. They'd rather get a foot in the door with an entry level job and work their way up to earn their respect(Vera's plan basically).
Mathematically speaking the democrat's subsidies for housing/education are just a way of levelling the playing field for poor people to deal them similar cards to what rich people are born with. But a lot of poor people probably don't come into contact with enough rich people to see they were dealt worse cards through no fault of their own.
Another thing, the Democrat party is also just as elitist as the Republican party. The American equivalent of Oxbridge is the Ivy League + MIT/Stanford/Caltech/Chicago, and a lot of the top democrats went to school here. They tend to look down on jobs that don't require a college education, and blame people without a degree for their own poverty. A lot of Trump voters see Democrats as a bunch of ivy-league educated coastal elites advocating for green jobs and wiping out coal. Green jobs definitely require at least an engineering degree because they are more technologically sophisticated (coal is just setting things on fire, a solar panel requires quantum physics to get working).
Oh please, I lied to get a half price discount when I enrolled for some diving lessons years ago. I was told that I could get a half price discount if I was either a student or on low-income, all I had to do was tick a box on the form and nobody checked for like a student ID or anything like that. So I shamelessly ticked the box and paid student price for the lessons. I can't understand why my cousin said no to the free money - I love free money, please give me free money. I remember walking down the street in Buenos Aires and there was a gust of wind as I came around the corner and a note literally flew into my face - it was an 100 Argentinian peso note (about £1 or US$1.34) and even the thrill of literally getting free money like that was fun as it doesn't happen very often.
I can see why the Republicans' plan to offer more jobs for poor people to work their way out of poverty is attractive to them - but the problem is this: even if you gave someone like Vera a chance to work her way up the ladder, say we employ her as a legal clerk in the law firm and she has the foot in the door - can she prove herself and climb the ladder in the firm? I doubt it as the odds are against her: she isn't that intelligent, she is so working class and she is always going to lose out to your typical middle class graduate who has all the right social skills. The odds of Vera succeeding are so painfully low that it seems unfair even tempting her to play that game of climbing the corporate ladder. That's why I called the Republicans' promise to people like Vera a con because I know what Vera is like - she's always going to work low-paid jobs because that's all she can do. She's a personal trainer now, she can lead a fat, rich housewife through a pilates routine whilst offering a lot of encouragement; that's easy enough for Vera to do but it isn't well paid but that's kinda all she knows how to do. But like you said, Vera has been dealt worse cards through no fault of her own and at her age, I don't even know where to begin for her to try to fix the situation.
Oh and I refer you to the case study of Thatcher in the 1980s in my response to Bay above - that's the whole coal situation in the UK dealt with by her back in the 1980s.
Lol I know You specifically are a cheapskate whether you are poor or rich lol. Yeah your cousin should've thought that a few jeers from her peers about being poor is worth it if she gets all As and wins a place at university and a well-paid job afterwards. But all too often people don't think of the "Long Game." Your cousin is more scared of short term social pain from her peers than the long term winnings of climbing out of poverty. But a lot of young people struggle at looking at the long game...
I don't want to mention the elephant in the room when it comes to voting Republican - racism. My sister said in Texas she overheard some Trump voting colleagues of her's saying they never want a black man in the white house again after Obama. Some trump voters just really don't like hearing the Democrats' plans for social justice, and feel that poor whites are being ignored in favor of poor minorities.
However, in America, white people are extremely blind to classism. They have this notion of the "American Dream" where anyone can be middle class if they work hard enough that dates to the founding of the country. They also believe class doesn't exist because we don't have a monarchy and hereditary titles. However, America is just as classist as the UK. Regardless, poor white voters here don't see a difference between themselves and someone like Trump who has had every advantage in life. They think they can be just as successful as Trump if they just work hard, because that's the "legend" that America uses to distinguish itself from the UK.
Hi Amanda, I grew up poor, so I am conditioned to react a certain way when it comes to money. I would have chased that 100 peso note halfway across Buenos Aires if I realized that was money (luckily I didn't have to) but still, I am glad to have economics and statistics to use as a rational behaviour because it is a completely different approach to the knee-jerk emotional response I always first come up with - then I use a rationality to challenge myself. Just last week I went to the dentist and I was trying to get NHS treatment (ie. the cheap kind on the government that I am entitled to) and the receptionist said no we don't do NHS treatment here as we have reached our quota but if you're willing to go private, I can get you in tomorrow morning. A part of me wanted to say no thanks and hang up the phone but the rational part of me said, "hang on, did you say tomorrow morning? You mean I can get my fillings sorted by lunchtime tomorrow?" So I went ahead and booked it, paid for private treatment which was faster than being on a waiting list for NHS treatment. My instinct was to save money, but the rational side of my head told me, "just get it over and done with, they're offering to see you tomorrow morning! Get that chip on your tooth fixed!"
Your analysis is correct, spot-on. It's all about short terms pain vs long term gain. Take the money now, develop a thick skin if your classmates jeer at you for being poor and needing charity - use that money wisely to improve your grades so you can get into a top university, graduate with good grades and get a well paid job, achieve true social mobility. That required my cousin to think 15 years into the future, she wasn't able to do that - it was a big ask for a teenager only thinking about the next day or next week and the classmates who bully her for being so poor. Therein lies the problem of poor people unable to climb out of poverty.
As for racism, sure there is an element of that of course but I didn't want to talk about it - this piece was about why poor people (who can be black, white or Asian) vote for Trump, rather than a discussion about racism in America. Of course racism is a problem, but I am only analyzing one specific aspect of the election. Kamala Harris was on the ticket and she faced a lot of racism during this election.
Again you're spot on when it comes to Americans imagining that the US is a class-free society. You have a different system which comes with privileges for those of middle class and the odds stacked against those from working class backgrounds, but is that a bad thing? In Singapore, we also believe that it is a class-free society when it clearly isn't - it's just that in the UK, we call a spade a spade and acknowledge the fact that we have a social class system. But let me tell you why it is a good thing: people have hope based on the fact that they are oblivious that the odds are stacked against them. Is that a bad thing?
Let me give you an analogy from my army days. There were two separate platoons that contributed the guards to do guard duty at this old building during this exercise; those from my platoon were warned that the old building was haunted, we were given vivid description of how a man was killed there blah blah blah his ghost still lingers in the corridors of that building etc. The other platoon was given no information as their commander wasn't a psycho who took pleasure in scaring his soldiers with ghost stories. So I was a soldier who was given the ghost stories and I was quite nervous and scared that night. The other soldiers from the other platoon were relaxed and slept like babies. The moment I saw something move in the dark - it could have been a mouse, just the wind blowing the leaves across the yard or something equally harmless, the thought of ghosts had already been planted in my head and I would look around, my pulse would race and the adrenaline would be pumping through my veins. One of my friends even thought he saw a ghost (I didn't see anything that night).
If you had to spend a night at that "old house", would you rather have no information or have your head filled with ghost stories? In such circumstances, sometimes it is good to be ignorant of some facts, even if I can confirm that the old building had a reputation to be haunted, so the person who told me the stories didn't make them up, he had heard the stories himself from another person. Likewise, if the odds were stacked against you as a poor working class student, would you rather a) be filled with hope on the basis that as long as you work hard, you can get a good job when you graduate and have a bright future or b) give up because you realize that your odds of succeeding are so low 'cos life is so unfair?
I would say that a) is actually a good option as b) offers nothing but despair.
Oh yeah, at the high end of healthcare you pay to save time rather than for a higher quality of care. Because some rich people like your sister who works in healthcare are really short of time even if they aren't short on money. As a poor college student I used to only buy videogames that were on sale because I had very little money. Now I can buy almost any game I want, but if I wait for games to go on sale I might not have time to play them later. So nowadays I just pay the full price whenever I have time to play, otherwise I'd be wasting my own time since "hell weeks" are a huge problem in academia.
I guess this is the unfairness of not having good parents. Parents are usually the ones who play the "long game" for you when you're a kid. I grew up with parents who believe that relationships should be banned until I finish a bachelor's degree. But when I started dating I had very little experience since I had zero in high school and undergrad, and it was so awkward. However, my career is fine, so if I were to get into a relationship now I could easily afford (at least in the future) to get married, buy a house, have pets, have kids, etc. I understand now that my parents tried to play the "Long game" for me relationship wise to prevent me from focusing too much on pleasing a guy during highschool/undergrad, and give me the best start to my career possible to make a serious relationship more financially feasible. However, some days I wish I was allowed a few throwaway relationships as a kid so other people won't jeer at me too much for being too inexperienced.
Ahh yes, Asia is also pretty blind to classism in a similar way to America. I guess there is no perfect solution on what to tell a person. Would you rather they knew more about the system and how to beat it, at the risk of reducing hope? Or would you rather they had the best self-confidence/hope possible, at the risk of being naive about the system? Both things must be balanced, hope and knowledge, emotion and rationality. I'd say it depends on the person. There are some cold-blooded people who thrive on knowledge and finding loopholes in the system. Others require a passionate story to believe in (Trump voters, but Democrat voters can also be passionate).
I guess the real challenge for the government is how they can help kids from families where their parents are clueless or simply unable to help their children in any way. What help is there for them? Let me tell you what I did last weekend which was a bit cruel but I needed to make a point: I have been giving my nephew tuition (I call them tutorials, mostly just discussions to check if he knows how to apply what he has learnt in an exam situation) and my mother has been making dumb-ass suggestions like "he needs to read the newspaper more" and I'm like, how's that going to help his critical thinking? So I gave her and my sister a difficult exam question and my mother was completely dumbfounded - she couldn't understand the question or give an intelligent reply, at least she had the humility to conceded, "now I realize how difficult it is". And at the back of my mind I was thinking, "at least I'm trying my best to help my nephew - you are way too stupid to have offered me any help with my studies because you're simply not educated enough to handle anything difficult." So if you just compare my nephew to myself, I had to figure out all this complex stuff out at school with no help whilst I can push my nephew to the limit giving him the kind of attention that his classmates will never get from their teachers. I got lucky with the genetic lottery and was in a position to figure stuff out for myself with little or no help - but it seems unfair that my nephew is able to get to that same position with a lot of help, when some of his classmates could get to where they need to be but simply are not getting the help they need, so what about them then?
As for the "ignorance is bliss" situation as described in the last paragraph, quite frankly, I don't know. Hope is always good, even if it based on a misunderstanding of the facts. If you don't even try, you will never have any chance of succeeding. So it's like the lottery - if you know how poor the odds are, you will never even buy a ticket. But if you do buy the ticket nonetheless based on a misunderstanding of your odds, at least now you do stand a chance of winning something. That certainly was my case as a child - I had no idea just how poor my odds were. I was naive but hey, that worked in my favour because I tried really hard. If I was told, "don't bother, you'll NEVER succeed no matter how hard you try", I might have just given up on myself.
To be fair Alex, your nephew has autism which does put him at a slight social disadvantage compared to his peers, so its nice he gets some extra mentorship from his uncle. That phrase "it takes a village to raise a child" rings very true, which is why a lot of outreach programs involve mentorships between people who aren't related.
I don't think telling people about their disadvantage necessarily has to mean telling them they won't succeed because the odds are slim. What people should be doing is saying "the odds are worse given the cards you've been dealt, but that just means you have to do things unconventionally to succeed." We only have to look at Tommy from your previous blogpost and how he managed to succeed in banking. You mentioned he left school without qualifications and worked his way up through job experience instead of going to an elite university, getting a degree, and using that to apply for a job at a prestigious investment bank.
It may be harder to be Tommy, not having the name of a university to hide behind or mentors to teach him the conventional ropes. But you said Tommy did things unconventionally and made a lot of money, and surely any boss would reward that.
Honestly I think some things in the traditional path are a farce, like a PhD. Apparently some students and professors think you shouldn't need to publish original research as prerequisite to get a PhD because "students have stressful classes to deal with already, and peer reviewers may reject the paper." But if someone doesn't do original research which is appreciated by the scientific community, what is the point of a PhD over a bachelors degree? Jeezus even Stanford lets students get a PhD without publishing anything. I would rather hire a poly graduate with several years in industry developing original technology that made lots of money than a whiny PhD graduate trying to convince me they are worth something when the thesis they spent 5 years on is not much better than a worthless undergrad project, even if their PhD is from Stanford.
I'm in two minds about this - I always believe that one should put emotions aside and look at statistics, so take a simple example buying a lottery ticket. Some people may buy it because they hope to win the lottery for the prize money would change their lives, they are buoyed by the optimistic and hope - whereas I would do the math and calculate the odds of actually winning then I would decline to even buy that ticket. That's why I have visited the casinos in Singapore, Las Vegas and Macao and didn't spend a single dollar gambling whilst walking through the splendid casinos, observing all these people gambling.
Talking about rich people lying, wasn't it not too far back where rich people in Mercedes Benz were going to collect free school textbooks in Singapore? I'm would unashamedly lie to reduce my income tax or get subsidies since I know that rich people don't stay rich by spending more money but less. Also I don't put a monetary value on face like the more traditional boomers.
Hi Sandra, I was expecting a reply from you. Allow me to make the following points please:
1. I wasn't writing a piece entitled "why do people vote for the Republican party" and then listing the reasons. That would have led to a very different article indeed. No, instead my friend Jean challenge me to write an article specifically analyzing the poorest Americans who still always vote Republican every time, so that gave me a far more narrow focus on this article. So that was my angle, what you wrote in the first paragraph is true of course - but that wasn't the issue I was try to tackle in this post. I was just answering Jean's question.
2. Indeed, even North Korea and Cuba allows for some degree of capitalism these days and in North Korea, the Kim family's inner circle enjoys a very high standard of living - there isn't the kind of 'equality' that socialism is supposed to achieve even in North Korea because of corruption. Thus you end up with different variations of government systems (such as the Singaporean approach to housing vs the British approach as you've described) so it is no longer a socialism vs capitalism debate, but a far more nuanced debate focusing on which political party has a better system to solve the most pressing needs in our society. But yet in America, Trump goes on and on and on about socialism and his supporters are buying his rhetoric.
3. Yup, stupidity is a major problem. As discussed above with Bay, it is hard to help stupid people even if you go out of your way to try to give them free stuff that's good for them. It reminds me of this story of a cat that got stuck in a tree, a fireman climbed up the tree to try to help it. The cat got suspicious of the fireman, scratched the fireman and then climbed even higher and the fireman then said, "my ladder is only so long and now I can't reach the cat, there's nothing more I can do. Your cat will come down that tree when it wants to come down."
Oh yes, religion - the opium for the masses. Rich people have the money to go do fun things that make them feel good, but that costs a lot of money. Poor people can go to church on Sunday, sing hallelujah and praise the lord - that's the only kind of fun they can afford. What you said is 100% true of course. And as for the pro-life voter, well that's a single issue voter. But you raise a very good point, there are a large number of disenfranchised voters who feel that neither Republicans nor Democrats will help them - 8 years of Obama and there are still so many poor people in America. So these poor people either vote on single issues (as you've described) or simply not vote at all.
Well, I don't believe it was one issue that led to his failure to win a second term, it was so many other factors that led to him getting elected in the first place. We have to go back to the Obama era where the poor in America didn't see the rise in living standards compared to those working in Wall Street or Silicon Valley - hence we're talking about the politics of envy here, rather than poor people genuinely starving. If he was able to deliver on the economic front and raise the standards of living for all of these poor people who voted for him, then I think he would have easily won a second term and then COVID came along, he was out of his depth. Way out of his depth - but the bottom line was, there were so many people who felt left behind, left out and excluded under Obama that they voted for Trump out of desperation as a protest vote. When those voters gave Trump their protest vote, they expected something in return and they clearly didn't get what they hoped for - that's why they turned on him. But it's a complex situation with so many factors, COVID being one of many factors.
Well, I agreed that it is a complex situation and yes, there is a percentage of voters who had turned on Trump due to the reasons you had stated, but I believe COVID is the biggest factor of them all.
Firstly, there will always be a group of Americans whose standard of living will not improve significantly even during the strongest of economy. Yes, some of them may get disappointed and turned on him. But there is a significant percentage of them who will believe whatever Trump said - and we all know how good Trump is in deflecting blame to others, and how much influence he has over many Americans.
It is a fact that Trump's mishandling of COVID had caused thousands and thousands of Americans to lose their lives and jobs, directly or indirectly, and the Democrats made sure of this fact hit home during the election campaign.
Donald Trump won more than 70 million votes, the second highest total in American history. Nationally, he has more than a 47% share of his vote.
I cannot imagine the kind of margin he could had won if not for COVID and if the economy was doing well ( The economy was doing strong before COVID hit ), not mentioning the advantage of incumbency: the twin factors that usually secure a sitting president a second term.
历史不可假设. However, Trump 2020 election results is very good, considering the poor economy and loss of American lives. I do not see the US economy being weak if there is no COVID. Hence, I strongly believe Trump will win the election if not for the epidemic.
Well yes, on that point, I do agree with you - I did think that Trump had a good chance of winning even in light of Covid and without Covid, he would have won a second term easily. But of course, I can't hide my joy and glee that he lost and am enjoying reading the news everyday to see his legal challenges fall apart; I particularly enjoy watching American comedians like Stephen Colbert and Seth Meyers rip him apart and mock Trump in their routines on Youtube.
I'm a little late to this conversation but since I know nothing about US voter habits I won't comment. However, LIFT how do you consider the political leaning of PAP in SG? They are right wing when it comes to medical insurance and retirement funds (CPF) but I when it comes to low taxation and courting of MNCs with their very capitalistic policies they lean hard left.
It's ironical how Trump and his supporters act all surprised with the results and scream voter fraud. If an incumbent loses, he only has himself to blame. Despite his boasts and bravado, he was not able to show real leadership during the crisis. To be honest, I don't think Biden could have done this either, but this election was a more an appraisal of Trump's performance than a validation of Biden's capabilities. The former should even be thankful that he got 74 million voters (2nd highest in history) despite this fiasco.
In a side note, the US mainstream media should try to be less left-wing biased and focus more on factual as opposed to opinion based articles. This biasness drives the equally sizeable conservative viewers to conspiracy theory sites like Newsmax and Fox News though the latter is more center right. These sites are just giving more strength and credibility to the Cult of Trump
Sorry I just realised after I posted that I got my right and left wing policies mixed up. But then I only slept 6 hrs after working 11 hrs straight on Sun....
My opinion is that I don't think the Democrats care all that much for the poor either, they favor globalization and environmentalism. And that means loss of factory/mining jobs.
ReplyDeleteDemocrat policies to these poor are very in their face, sure they may get more welfare but they lose their ability to make a living. Much akin to taking someone's kidneys but giving them a dialysis machine. Republican policies are more kicking these poor while they're down, when they already don't have/lost the ability to make noise about it. Democrats are more socially progressive but economically speaking they're not really any less on the right with Republicans, which pisses these poor even more. Both parties hate the poor.
For now, the right wing populists offer a simple answer which is easy to understand, blame the "other" and once they're gone things would be better. No different from the Communists with capitalists/land owners or the fascists with the minority races. For people in the US and UK, things were better in living memory so it's easier to convince them of that. Brazil well, if I'm willing to bet that the fairer they are , the past was brighter for them.
Hi Bay, this reminds me of something I talked about with my family over the weekend. The question was about why people still smoke despite the fact that we have good information regarding the consequences of smoking on your health? The conclusion is that humans are irrational (or you can use the words foolish, silly, dumb, stupid or something to the same effect). When one smokes, one thinks about the pleasure that the cigarette will give us for the next few minutes, one doesn't think about getting lung cancer 10 or 15 years from now. Likewise, if I have a great big slice of chocolate cake in front of me, I eat it knowing the pleasure it will give me in the next few moments, I block out the consequences of obesity induced by such a high fat + sugar diet. People are irrational in thinking short term and make poor decisions, sometimes we need a parent or nanny-state to tell us "don't smoke, it is bad for you" and literally make that decision on our behalf if we can't be trusted to be rational.
DeleteOn the issue of the loss of factory and mining jobs - yes there will be short term pain of unemployment, but in the long run, the world will no longer be dependent on fossil fuels, we have to turn to alternatives like solar, wind and other forms of renewable energy as we run out of coal and oil. Likewise, manufacturing jobs will inevitably be lost to places like China and Vietnam where labour costs are so much lower and there's just no way a factory in America can be profitable when competing with an Indian or Chinese factory.
The only way to keep these factory jobs is to pour in government subsidy - an enormous amount of government subsidies to keep these factories open and keep these workers employed in manufacturing despite the fact that there's just no way they can compete with their counterparts in India/China. A government thinking about the next election around the corner will promise to keep the factory open by pouring tax payers' money into the factory to keep it open, a government thinking of long term consequences will simply allow the factory to go out of business then deal with retraining the unemployed workers to help them transition to other parts of the economy where they can make a living.
So that's short term vs long term. What kind of government does the country want? Do you want to pay a lot of taxes only for your tax money to prop up totally unprofitable businesses that would collapse the moment the government withdraws all those subsidies? It makes no economic sense at all. But like I mentioned above, people are stupid, really stupid, foolish, dumb, ignorant, foolish idiots.
I think you're harsh on both the democrats and the republicans because the problem (as I see it) are not with the parties, but it is with the poor themselves. They're poor because they're stupid. They make very bad decisions. And to compound the situation, they're even harder to help because they are that stupid. Hence they are open to exploitation if someone decides to tell them what they wanna hear to buy their votes - Trump has already done that, but has done little to help the poor in America but there's a part of me that just shrugs my shoulders and thinks, that's Trump for you. He's not as dumb as he seems - he did win the 2016 election by duping the poor working class Americans en masse.
I don't disagree with you on the fact that factory and mining jobs are going to disappear in the developed countries. The sort of benefits and pay that American workers got was ridiculous in the first place, though it made sense initially. Even China is facing the problem of its low cost industries going overseas.
DeleteI don't know that even trying to retrain the workers would work, there's just too much in depth knowledge required now. You're not making a coal worker with high school qualifications learn how to manage a network of robots, I picked up programming at 30 and I struggle to make sense of the complex software architecture and algorithms that the 20s breeze through. To the victor goes the spoils is going to be a much more serious problem in the next decade.
Perhaps, but I think I'm closer to the truth than most Americans are of their politicians. It's not possible for them to legislate their way out of this, there's too much competing interests within the system and they're not willing to admit that the rest of the world has caught up and could now compete with them.
I don't know, stupid is a very binary term for me. Professionally, I can't accept that as an answer to build coding solutions. Trump exploited the dissatisfaction, he didn't start any of the dumpster fires, only fanning them. He just has no clue about what to do next as long as he gets to say he won(No difference from Boris and Nigel I guess). Not dumb, definitely smart enough to be dangerous and cause a great deal of damage.
I don't look at the Americans that voted Trump as dumb(Some are fairly wealthy) . I look at them and see desperation. They voted Trump because they see Hillary as keeping the decline going.
Hi Bay. Well if I may point you to the UK in the 1980s as a case study, when Margaret Thatcher got into power as our first female PM ever, she inherited a country in steep decline: the economy was stuck in the dark ages with manufacturing and mining. The pound was also very strong then, making exports difficult and so the previous Labour government (left wing) was pouring money into subsidizing these loss making industries to keep the voters happy, but they ran the economy into the ground with these socialist principles - well, calling it socialism isn't even fair, they were just a bunch of incompetent idiots who mismanaged the economy because they just cared about getting more votes rather than sorting the economy out. Thatcher was very unpopular at first when she pulled the plug on these loss-making industries, she closed everything from textile factories to steelworks to coal mines and there were riots in the streets. The period from 1977 to 1983 was a terrible period of turmoil for the UK when there was deep mistrust of the government but eventually Thatcher's gamble paid off when the UK emerged from the long and painful 1980s recession much stronger as a result of her policies to focus on growth industries like the sciences, tourism, IT and banking rather than manufacturing and mining. Without Thatcher, good grief, the UK would be as poor as Romania or Bulgaria. She was unapologetically right-wing and a capitalist and she delivered - she is still a deeply divisive figure today with half the country hating her whilst the other half worshiping her. I don't like her personality but I agree that she did the right thing.
DeleteSo what happened in the 1980s when the manufacturing and mining workers got retrenched? Well in Thatcher's Britain, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. They became destitute, they were on benefits for years, became alcoholics and depressed. The government essentially gave up on them and these communities became extremely poor - but hey, these were areas located faaaaar away from London like North Wales, Lancashire and County Durham. The rich people in the South East weren't affected and the economy was doing well in the London area - thus the Londoners just shrugged their shoulders and say, "well, they should try harder. They only have themselves to blame if they are still poor when some of us are able to get so rich under Thatcher."
It is thus a fallacy to think that every one of those workers can be helped - under Thatcher, many were just abandoned and drank themselves to an early death. But won't they vote against her party at the next election you may ask? Well, that's again a calculated gamble - as long as there are enough happy people making plenty of money as stockbrokers, investment bankers, nuclear scientists and plastic surgeons in the new Britain than the disenfranchised ex-workers of factories and mines (now newly unemployed facing a very bleak future), then she can earn enough votes to form the next government.
Remember, Thatcher wasn't aiming to win a 100% mandate from the people. No, she needed to win just enough seats in the next parliament to be the majority party that goes on to form the next government with her as the PM. So she gambled on pleasing around 55% of the people by making them better off whilst alienating the 45% by making them a lot worse off.
It could be summarized as, "fuck the poor."
And it worked.
Part 2: Not that I am a big fan of Thatcher, but she was pragmatic. She knew there were people like ex-miners who could never be retrained to do another profession. All they can do is mining and if you close the mine, they were become long term unemployed, depressed and drink themselves to an early death. When you tell her about that, she would give you a cold long stare and then eventually say, "do I look as if I care?" Her gamble worked and gosh, people think that the UK is rich but we're divided into the South-East and London region which is extremely wealthy and people in the depressed areas who are living in really terrible conditions akin to the worst areas you'll find in Eastern Europe. I have visited some of these areas in the UK before and I can barely believe I'm still in the same country - I feel like, "oh I've stepped into a time machine and this is what Britain was like in the 1960s". We have had two Labour (left-wing) prime ministers - Blair and Brown, neither could lift these depressed areas out of poverty. The fact is whether the government is left or right wing, the poor are still fucked either way.
DeleteMillions of American voted for Trump because even a very popular, left wing president like Obama could lift millions out of poverty - it is mission impossible. They voted for Trump as a protest vote. But as Thatcher demonstrated, you can't lift the poor out of poverty even if you do the full Swedish thing and tax the rich at 76% to redistribute that money to the poor - even the Swedish model doesn't produce satisfactory results.
So you have two strategies:
Thatcher: Fuck the poor, alienate poorer working class voters, but reach out to the middle classes and hope that between the rich and the emerging middle classes, you can get at least 51% of the vote and win that election whilst sticking your middle finger out at poor people, mouthing the words, "fuck you".
Trump: Lie to the poor that he's going to do all these things for them and then do nothing because he is an incompetent, lying, dishonest bastard.
Between the two, I prefer Thatcher. At least she is honest about exactly what she was going to do to the poor people of this country. Trump lied to the poor, but that's exactly what he does - he just lies about everything, everyday.
Alex, Thatcher sounds a lot like the Democrats in America. So it isn't a myth that the democrats in America are basically the center-right party in Canada/Australia/UK/Germany/other OECD country.
DeleteThe thing is though... the country did still roll on didn't it? Society didn't collapse even though the UK eliminated coal and manufacturing. The main argument for capitalism is that the need to earn one's keep is necessary to maintain society, such that people will clean the streets, produce energy, produce goods, build new buildings, etc. But it seems in this case, life can go on even with a huge swathe of the country unemployed. I guess that's the argument for a universal basic income, that societies have gotten so technologically advanced that we do not need 100% use of human capital just to keep everyone clothed, fed, and housed. With robots coming along that may drive that argument even further, as they will put a lot of low-skill but high dexterity jobs out of work.
Well Thatcher's Conservative government were seen as the right wing villains but by American standards, they would be centrist, even left wing. The British Labour government would be seen as some tree hugging hippies high on marijuana whilst the Green party would be the stuff of fantasies. The yardsticks and goalposts are so completely different in America compared to the rest of the world.
DeleteAnd yes, Thatcher's gamble worked - a portion section of the country experienced horrific economic hardship after she shut down the unprofitable mines and factories but as long as that number of people numbered less than 50%, she could keep the majority happy. The majority were the emerging middle class who found good jobs in the modern economy, within sectors like banking, education, tourism, IT and other service industries. So the poor working class were left to rot, to suffer and these people would never ever vote for Thatcher anyway as they saw her as the devil, so she was like, well screw you lot then, you're never going to support me so I am now going to make your life hell whilst I know I can comfortably win the next election. I don't need a 100% mandate, just 50.1% will do thank you.
Lol America is so right-wing we don't even have universal healthcare. You can't go around supporting the green party here without being seen as an anti-capitalistic lunatic, even by Democrat standards. But in the UK the Labor party gets behind coalminers, while in the US it's the Republican party. Maybe its because a lot of the rich supporters of the Republican party that work in traditional media feel under attack by the big software companies which tend to align Democrat (Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon).
DeleteIn hindsight, Thatcher did make a sacrifice that did modernize the UK's economy. Coal couldn't last forever, and a country whose wealth is built on natural resources is doomed to fail. The only problem with a modern economy is that it makes it very hard for people with little education and skills to find work, and a lot of people aren't keen on studying their whole lives just to stay up to date. Of course this isn't 50% or more of people, so that works in Thatcher's favor, shrewd. Ugh, lately because of Covid I just don't have the mental health to get up and do science. I have 2 math textbooks to read in 2 weeks for research purposes, and I'm binge-watching netflix and putting it off as long as I can. And the thing is I get paid to study, while most people don't, so I see why retraining is so difficult.
What do you think is the right approach? Make it easier for everyone to study all the time, or make surviving require less study through a universal basic income? Of course we can still preserve the highly skilled high paying jobs like banking or software engineering, but for the 80% of other jobs that are more precarious, what is the most practical option?
To be fair, Labour didn't support the coal miners either - allow me to explain, prior to Thatcher's victory in 1979, the UK had a Labour prime minister (James Callaghan 1976 - 1979) and he lost control of the situation. In that period, the mines were losing a lot of money at that stage and in response to that, the miners organized strikes to demand more and more government subsidies to keep the mines open with the argument that if you close the mines, then entire communities will collapse (which is 100% true) because the mines employ so many people and there is no alternative employment. Callaghan mostly gave into the miners but couldn't satisfy them as they just kept demanding more and more and more - the economy went into a downward spiral, tailspin and was crashing, inflation was high, the government was broke and the miners were holding the country to ransom as many of the power stations were still reliant on coal as fuel then and without enough coal, the electricity supply would be interrupted.
DeleteThe rest of the country looked on at Callaghan supporting the miners and the miners walking all over him and thought, this is ridiculous. Our country is a joke, our economy has crashed and his prime minister has messed it all up - so from the point of view of the coal miners, the Labour government and Callaghan were the enemy. You may have looked at that situation and thought, well Callaghan was far more of a friend of the miners than Thatcher, but that wasn't the case from their perspective; the miners hated both Callaghan and Thatcher. They hated the government, never mind if they were from the left or the right, they were only loyal to their own trade unions. Of course, Callaghan's mismanagement of the situation with the miners and the crash of the British economy in the 1970s led to Thatcher storming to victory in the 1979 election because people were desperate for change - they needed someone to come and clear up the mess and placed their faith in Thatcher within that context.
I know Trump supported the coal miners but the situation in the UK was quite a different one indeed. Trump just wanted their votes - but I believe that Callaghan and Thatcher were desperately trying to do their best in a messy situation when trying to rescue the British economy from the verge of collapse. She succeeded where Callaghan failed because she was willing to use tactics like denying strikers and their families any welfare benefits, mass arrests and she acted like a communist dictator with very heavy handed methods - she wiped out the mines, these economies did go into deep decline with mass unemployment and a lot of suffering, but she sacrificed those mining communities to save the rest of the economy. It was a gamble and as long as those people numbered less than 50% of the electorate, she did the maths and realized the odds were good - so her policy was "fuck the miners, they can starve to death for all I care, their children can beg in the streets whilst I drink champagne - tough shit, that's what I was elected to do." And this policy was actually pretty popular with the rest of the ordinary civilian population who were desperate for the economy to improve. One needs to see this from the point of view of the majority, ie. people not employed in the mining & manufacturing industry and how they felt about Thatcher's methods.
There is no perfect solution of course, no way. The UK doesn't provide any kind of template for the US as we've messed up the situation - Callaghan made such a massive mess that Thatcher had to try to clear up using pretty extreme measures that meant subjecting those mining communities to a lot of hardship, starvation and suffering for a generation whilst the rest of the country looked on with no sympathy at all for the miners. All I can say is that the UK provides a case study of "here's what not to do, avoid making this dumb mistake."
To be clear, the British government did very little for these mining communities after the mines were closed down - those communities experienced a lot of poverty, alcoholism, high rates of unemployment and were essentially left to rot and starve for a generation. The unemployed ex-miners were given unemployment benefits which enabled them to have a roof over their heads, buy food and have a very basic survival, but they didn't want a life like that - when they were miners, they are least had a job, they had the skills to work in a mine and they were proud of what they did as miners. That was taken away from them when the mines closed and Thatcher's attitude was simple - the mines were a relic from a previous generation, get with it, go find work elsewhere and whilst it may not be well paid work, but you can at least go stack shelves in a supermarket or do some other unskilled work in your communities. The problem was that there were only so many jobs left in those communities - the problem was that the salaries of the miners supported a lot of local businesses, so the local shop where the miners bought their boots and equipment closed down because the miners no longer had the need for this equipment - the supplier of the equipment sold in the shop then also closed down and etc etc, you see the chain reaction set off the moment the mines closed. Callaghan was afraid of that chain reaction and so he prevented it from happening whilst he was prime minister, Thatcher wasn't afraid to face the inevitable and her attitude was, so be it, it will be very painful but it has to happen.
DeleteBut to answer your question, no, successive British governments have failed to address the issue of unemployed ex-miners. They merely kicked the can down the road until it no longer was an issue. If a miner was 25 years old in 1985 when the mine closed, then that was a good 35 years ago and that miner would be 60 years old today. The government would now look at the 60 year old and say, "you're too old to retrain, it won't be a good use of our resources to teach you anything new, we're just going to classify you as retired so sweep that problem under the carpet because you've spent the last 35 years unemployed." The problem will go away in a generation by that token, these ex-miners will eventually reach retirement age then die at some stage. But the longer you keep mines open in America, the longer it will take to get to that stage where you no longer have angry ex-miners living in poverty protesting the government. Thatcher wasn't perfect but I do approve of what she did by closing the mines.
Hmm... I kinda wonder why the tech industry isnt like the energy industry where coalminers can be upstaged by oil drilling in the North Sea. Floppy disks and hard drives have gone out, but it seems these people just work on SSDs instead. I guess the issue with coalminers compared to floppy disk engineers is that its a manual labor job, and the only other jobs they could get are manual labor but probably less well paid (unless it was being a plumber).
DeleteI dont disagree with Thatcher if coal was just not as competitive as other forms of energy. The issue is that there arent enough former coalminers elected as MPs to deal with the human cost of the fallout. In America even the Democrats are deeply classist, they assume that if you are laid off or your job is automized, you should take on 1000s of dollars of debt and go back to university, preferably in computer science (the learn to code movement here is even more cringe than Fatimah's next job).
I guess the moral of the story is that society is unkind to the uneducated. This problem probably goes beyond coal, it also applies to the people who didnt finish school and ended up stacking shelves at Tesco's or driving for uber since those may be automized soon.
Btw I notice the way Sg tries to handle this is by giving working adults free money to take subsidized courses at the government universities part-time. I dont know how successful that is, but its much less risky than a full time degree. The UK equivalent of that would be subsidized night school at UCL for working adults I suppose.
Hi Amanda a few points for you:
Delete1. Goodness me, UCL does NOT do night classes for working adults. Allow me to explain. There's a lot of snobbery associated with the universities at the top of the league tables. Their prestige comes from the fact that you need to have excellent grades in order to earn yourself a place there and if you don't have the grades, there's no "back door" route to claim you "studied at UCL" simply by taking a night class there. Only universities at the bottom of the league tables who are so desperate for cash would run such courses - otherwise universities like UCL are way too snobbish to deal with the kind of people who would attend "night school for working adults". To be fair, there are places like City Lit https://www.citylit.ac.uk/ which do run "night school" type courses and I do know of a few universities much lower down the league tables that do so, but not the best universities. Oh they won't allow such types to darken their doorways with their presence on campus. British snobbery, you know. There is no obligation on the part of universities to educate everybody including the unwashed masses - Oxford for example decides you focus on the top 0.01% and look, they followed that formula and came up with a vaccine for Covid-19. Funny how the university of Brighton (at the bottom of the league table) didn't come up with the vaccine, oh that's because the people studying there aren't as intelligent.
2. The coal industry was a mess because coal was a vital resource that kept the power stations running in the 1970s and 1980s - so even though digging the coal out was dirty, manual labour, the work was relatively well paid for a simple reason: the miners formed very powerful labour unions which meant that they demanded pay increase after pay increase, "give us what we want or the country won't have electricity." It got so bad that in 1973, the UK had a 3-day working week because there wasn't enough electricity to run the factories (like steelworks) 5 days a week - the country had plenty of coal but the government couldn't buy the coal from the mines at a decent price for the power stations because the mine owners had to pay their miners such high salaries because of their labour unions. They held the country ransom and basically, Thatcher came in like the headmistress and said, "enough of this rubbish, things have to change and I am here to shut down the mines. This is no way to run a country." So she punished the miners by making them unemployed, plunging the mining communities into poverty and merely laughed as those communities starved and suffered abject poverty for a whole generation - that's just payback for holding the country ransom during the 1970s, now it is payback time and not only will you suffer, your children will suffer and your children's children will suffer. It was beyond cruel, it was vicious. But the miners did get too greedy, if they had worked with the government instead of against the government, who knows how things might have turned out.
3. So in the case of the UK, it wasn't just that we were unkind to the uneducated miners - they were often remembered as greedy people who were a lot better paid than other manual workers like bus drives, construction workers and factory workers. What they did through their labour unions would be the equivalent of nurses and doctors striking in the middle of the Covid-19 pandemic, claiming, "we're not going to work unless the government gives us a 50% pay rise right now, hurry up because the patients in the ICU are dying but we're not returning to save their lives until you agree to our demands." That's why many Brits were happy to see the kind of payback Thatcher delivered to the mining communities because she really made them suffer for over a generation. What they did was immoral but what she did was by the same token quite vicious.
4. Not everyone is a fan of Thatcher (I have mixed emotions about her, I like some things she did and I hate other things she did), but at least she worked her ass off trying to get this country back on track when it was in a very deep recession and the previous Labour government had left her a big stinking pile of poo to inherit - she had to clean up the horrific mess the previous Labour government left behind and she would work 17, 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. Her personal staff said she often got by on 4 hours of sleep a night, sometimes less. I do recognize that she did take her job very seriously and she wanted to be remembered as the prime minister who made the country better, not the prime minister who left things worse. Now compare that to Trump who is either playing golf or spending his time tweeting about conspiracy theories whilst thousands of Americans are dying everyday from Covid-19. At least Thatcher is still a much better leader than Trump. She had far more balls than he would ever have.
DeleteHahahaha, true about Trump playing golf and probably not taking Corona as seriously as he should. I have a Dutch friend who once said "our Prime Minister (Mark Rutte) is working 70-80 hours a week just to manage the pandemic within the Netherlands. I don't imagine Trump is willing to do the same, so the situation in the US does not surprise me." Btw Alex, Thatcher actually has a degree in Chemistry from Oxford, working under a Nobel Prize winner (Dorothy Hodgkin). I see why she didn't like the coal industry, because it represents the stone age to a scientist like herself.
DeleteI didn't mean literally that UCL has night classes, they probably don't because the UK is snobbier than SG. In SG because its a dictatorship the government can force NUS/NTU/SMU/SUTD to offer these courses even if they don't want to. However most of the night school courses are offered through SIT or the rebranded SUSS (formerly SIM). I do know some SUTD professors hate offering these courses because they'd rather spend time on research than help an adult worker retrain.
Hmm... The thing about the coalminers is that they couldn't compete with more automatized forms of energy extraction like oil-drilling. In comparison to coalmining which is done by hand, oil drilling is done by machines which are staffed by highly trained engineers. My dad once hired an engineer who worked as a consultant on short-term contracts around the world, and that engineer cost the drilling company 5000 dollars a day, plus expenses. But without this engineer who magically fixed their equipment problems, the company would have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars per day.
The thing is, engineers like that consultant don't have unions, yet they can still make a decent salary. This is because they can deliver cheaper energy by increasing their productivity(improve the machine) without reducing their salary. The same can't be said for human manual labor, unfortunately. And I guess the UK government and people, and rightly so, wasn't willing to pay for that anymore.
This makes me think, when people say don't do a degree in computer science/engineering because there might not be enough jobs in that industry, I think they should go for it anyway. They may not get into the sector they originally wanted, but the mathematical knowledge may be put towards a totally different industry, as long as it has machines that produce a new useful product that the engineer can improve over time. This is better than working at a manual labor job where it isn't possible to improve productivity past a certain point. I myself started out in electrical engineering and quantum physics, but I got bored with how slow progress occurs in the semiconductor industry, and now work in robotics where a lot more advancements have been happening lately.
Anyway, in summary, in the energy/manufacturing industries, it is better to be an engineer building and improving a machine than to be "the machine" that pulls things apart/puts them together, which can't be improved.
Hi Amanda, a quick reply as I have a lot on my plate today, a long reply will follow later today once I get the working day out of the way. But I wanted to point out that top universities like UCL will NEVER EVER have night classes for adults looking to improve themselves - this is purely out of snobbery. Why is it so hard to get into top universities like Oxford and UCL? It is because you need to meet their impossibly high standards in order to score a place there and that's their brand image they are protecting - ie. we deal with the best of the best, the brightest talents in the world. So that's the exclusivity that comes with the brand image they need to protect from a marketing point of view.
DeleteWould Tiffany's ever launch a $5 bracelet that everyone can buy as a present this Christmas? Hell no, Tiffany & Co pride themselves in being EXCLUSIVE, that means being so expensive that poor people can never afford anything in their stores - it is only for rich people. Launching a $5 bracelet will destroy their image of being an exclusive high class brand. The same issue applies to top universities like UCL running night classes - that's the same as Tiffany's launching a $2 bracelet for Christmas, like no Amanda, hell no. Stop for a moment and try to think like a business professional. No sane brand will destroy their brand identity by doing something like that - the damage is irreparable.
So you wrote "UCL probably don't" have night classes - I'm objecting to your use of "probably", I'm explaining that HELL NO, they will NEVER EVER in a million years ever run something like that because it is going to hurt their reputation of being exclusive. Hell no, like just NEVER. NEVER NEVER NEVER. No freaking way. Which part of NEVER do you not get? Like no no no no no no no. Some exclusive brands will never do something like that to hurt their reputation. Never.
Lol so exclusivity is a huge part of the brand in the UK. A few universities in America, including some elite ones, have these online certificate programs to make a quick buck. But yeah I guess they will never run part-time programs that would grant the same degree as a full-time student just like UCL. Alright my mistake.
DeleteBtw recently I found out I have access to the Penn Club of New York because my uni is affiliated with them. I was thinking of going there to network when corona is over, but its an elitist club(you have to graduate from xyz university to get in). Though it seems easier to talk to people who came from similar universities than talking to strangers over linkedin. When universities are exclusive I guess its all about preserving the networking opportunities.
Hi Amanda two points for you:
Delete1. Firstly, from the business perspective, you have to weigh up the pros and the cons. So you can make a quick buck from cheap online certificate programmes that allows quite stupid people to claim that "hey I studied at this prestigious elite university" despite not having met their strict admission criteria. The damage done to the brand is huge because people will then question, "did you do their online programme or did you qualify for their undergraduate programme by meeting their impossibly high admission criteria?" This then taints even the genuinely talented and intelligent graduates by confusing the quality of the goods. That's as bad as Tiffany's launching a range of "under $10 Christmas gifts - what a bargain!" Then the next time someone gives you something from from Tiffany's, you'll wonder if it is from the expensive range or the bargain basement. Sure loads of people will buy the $10 xmas gift from Tiffany but in making a quick buck, you have well and truly TRASHED the good name of the company by associating yourself with cheap trash. You're a scientist, I'm a businessman - trust me when I tell you that I know a lot more about sales & marketing and how important brand image is to any organization including universities. If a university is dumb enough to make a quick buck at the risk of tarnishing their reputation, then that's a very dumb move. I believe you that some universities have made that mistake - it doesn't change the fact that it is still a hideously dumb mistake to make and it will affect their ability to attract donors and funding in the long run; big organizations will pick the best universities to work with on important research projects and they will pick the ones who only work with the brightest talent, not the ones who will teach anyone who will pay the fees.
2. I tend to talk to people from the same part of my industry (quite niche) as opposed to people from the same university because if they studied something completely different like chemistry, law or history then I have nothing in common with them I'm afraid.
1. Oh I guess I was thinking accessibility was a good thing because it may get talented students who didn't apply the normal route. But that's me as a scientist thinking of the collective good, instead of the personal good to an institution. Business is the latter, and universities are a big business I suppose. Personally, I don't know whether it is morally right/wrong for universities to be like this. I like how my university has a big bank balance to spend on scholarships and covid protections so their students can study in peace. But to do so they have to admit only people who will be successful enough to donate to the university later in life, or those with rich parents (10% acceptance rate).
DeleteIn contrast, in developed countries not the UK/US, universities are more egalitarian. University of Toronto is the best university in Canada, but has a 43% acceptance rate since they take in a wide variety of students. However, this means the bright students going to U of Toronto don't have as good branding as the bright students attending Harvard/UCL, but it means a less than bright student is more likely to go to university in Canada than in the US/UK.
I guess its just up to a country how much help they want to give the brightest students versus everyone else. If universities were left to operate as businesses then they would definitely only invest in the brightest students since they are safer investments. It seems UK/US universities, including UCL, are definitely run as a business haha.
2. Uh yeah, I really should get out of my comfort zone when approaching people. Scientific conferences or tech conferences are probably better for networking, even if they have more people in a less intimate setting.
Yes from that point of view, you're thinking about "what can I do to improve society to help less privileged kids who may be bright but never got the support they needed to access higher education", but that's not always what comes to mind when universities consider what they need. It is a higher competitive environment - certainly the universities in the top 10 in the UK are jostling hard with each other; even between Oxford and Cambridge, they are always trying to outdo each other because education is big business here in the UK and I suppose I'm the businessman, you're the scientist - we can both look at the same issue and respond very differently. Let me give you a story from the UK from quite a few years ago but the principle is the same: there was an exclusive designer, very expensive high-end clothes for women. At the end of the autumn-winter season, they destroyed left over stock instead of discounting it and then restocked their boutiques with the spring-summer season. When asked why they preferred to destroy the stock (literally, the clothes were shredded and then dumped in the rubbish skip) instead of being sold of at a discounted price or even donated to charity, they replied that their brand is so exclusive they don't want to be associated with discounts or sales and that doing so would cheapen their brand. And as for donating it to charity, they said they would rather make a donation to a charity than give them unsold clothes, because the poor people might then flog it cheaply on eBay, creating a secondary market for their clothes at a much lower price online and thus cheapening the brand. So they stood by their decision to shred millions of dollars worth of designer clothing to point where it is worthless and only fit for the dustbin - you may think, whaaaaat? Don't you wanna sell that off at a discount and get some money for it rather than nothing for it (and have to pay for it to be shredded and disposed of on top of that)? But such is the nature of defending the exclusive nature of an elite, luxury brand. You do what is best for the profits in the long run and any desire to do some good, help the poor, help the community - all that goes out of the window. To be fair to this brand, they did say, "yes we do make charitable donations to charity, here is a long list of charities we have given money to - we have helped these people a lot but we are not going to cheapen our brand, that's just bad for business and anyone in business will understand that very basic principle we abide by."
DeleteThus by the same token, Oxford remains highly exclusive and only available to the top 0.001% who have proven themselves worthy of Oxford's extremely high standard. In abiding by those exclusive standards to shut out 99.999% of the population, they have focused on the brightest talents in the world and have come up with a vaccine that will allow life to return to normal. You get miracles like that when you shut out 99.999% of the general population who are not in the 0.001% - that's only possible when you focus all your energies on the best of the best. So poor people can benefit from this vaccine that would not have been possible if Oxford decided to be more inclusive and help disadvantaged kids from working class families.
DeleteNow don't get me wrong, there are universities are various governmental bodies that help these disadvantaged kids from working class families access higher education but that's the job of the government to do that and they don't place that burden on Oxford to get involved. Hell no. You leave Oxford alone and let them concentrate on the top 0.001% of the human species because you want miracles to come out of Oxford and let's not pretend that helping the poor kids from working class backgrounds will deliver miracles - no way, you're NOT going to get any kind of miracles from these kids. You're giving them social mobility, you're making sure they have a better life than their parents, you're giving them a brighter future but are they the top 0.001%? Hell no, far from it. Even if they are of the top 1%, that's just not good enough. You are totally incorrect in vastly overestimating the kind of "good" that will come out of helping these poor kids - we help them because that's the kind of responsibility any government would have but get real Amanda, these people will attain some sort of social mobility but will you get a vaccine that can save the world or a similar kind of miracle from such people? Hell no, not a chance. Never. Because they're not the top 0.0001% and that's why we need to let Oxford remain painfully exclusive. Other universities lower down the league tables can get on with helping the poor kids from the inner cities but leave Oxford alone to do their amazing miracles for humankind.
Currently there are about 24,000 students at Oxford. They attract the very best brains from around the world. Let's do some maths, there are about 1.2 billion adolescents between 10 - 19 in the world at the moment, let's say only those who are 18-19 can consider going to Oxford, so that's 20% = 0.24 billion or 240 million. Out of 240 million, Oxford can take in 24,000 at a time, so that's 1 in 10,000 or the top 0.0001% - okay you may argue that there may be bright American students who choose to go to Harvard or Yale instead of Oxford, but that's the kind of statistics we are dealing with. It's no good being in the top 1%, you need to be in the top 0.001% at least to even stand a chance and the reason why we follow this very discriminatory model to exclude 99.999% of the population is because incredible things happen when you put the very best brains of humankind together in the same room and they make miracles happen. You can't do that when you have some poor kid from the inner city who has been a charity case and granted the same access to that process - if that kid is in the top 0.0001% then please give him a place at Oxford, otherwise, please give him a place somewhere else less exclusive like a university ranked 11th in the league tables and let Oxford get on with doing what they do best.
Hmm, from that perspective your argument is quite rational. In the US people argue the ivy league should open their doors to disadvantaged children because they have the most resources to do so. But its not like other universities don't exist. And personally I dont think its the ivy league's problem to fix issues in K-12 education, thats just politicians passing the buck. Oh and I was gonna say University of Toronto invented insulin for diabetics, but it was not nearly as fast as a covid vaccine. And yeah you're quite right about how universities compete fiercely for students at the top. Especially the rich universities who arent quite ivy league ranked, they will invest more in scholarship money to pry away bright students to increase their rank next year.
DeleteBut rich universities will accept people who will exaggerate their poor background since they are under fire for classism. Even poor kids hate that, because they say "I am more than my poverty, can I talk about something else of my character instead?" But high school counselors warn them the ivy league is more likely to accept stories of "adversity" instead. There was even a recent scandal about this where a highschool faked transcripts and wrote essays on behalf of students which lied about their parents drinking or being drug addicts to get them into Harvard and Yale. But these students didnt do well at Harvard and Yale and transferred out. I'm not saying poor people cant be bright. But the ivy league should accept poor students with good grades and some neat hobby that they showed talent and initiative with (like you with gymnastics), instead of accepting who is more willing to tell the most vivid sobstory instead of getting on with their life. Jeezus one of my classmates is like this, and instead of focusing on science he likes telling people every 5 minutes how he grew up poor, and bitching about how some of his classmates have yachts.
Just to return to the original topic of the blog post. I do think that inequality in higher education is a symptom rather than a cause of overall inequality in society, and this inequality drives people in the US/UK to vote for Trump/Brexit. It isn't possible to provide everyone an ivy-league level education because the students would have to pay for it somehow, either by becoming millionaires/billionaires and donating later in life, or heavy loans (NYU's business model, admit poor kids but give no scholarships). But it would be possible to at least provide more feasible pathways to a middle class life, even if it isn't an ivy league education, and most of the time it doesn't have to be. Like apprenticeships in Germany, which pay you a small stipend while you are training and lead to good jobs. Or even loan forgiveness of certain important jobs that don't pay that well, like schoolteacher or child psychologist. Unfortunately in America to be a teacher you have to get a masters degree in teaching on top of a bachelor's degree, and that discourages many people since the debt from both degrees will make life on a teacher's salary very difficult.
DeleteI think if certain groups didn't feel so marginalized or hopeless in the UK/US, then less people would bother with Brexit and Trump. I know in Germany they do have significant far right party support, but its only 12% of the country and not 51%. And of that 12%, most of them live in East Germany which still hasn't caught up economically with West Germany after the reunification. A German who I played boardgames with said that in East Germany when the economic situation worsened, the first people to leave for West Germany were the women and young people. So you get a situation of middle-aged poor straight men who grumble about not being able to find a job or wife, and vote far right.
Hi Amanda, a few points for you if I may please:
Delete1. Helping the poor should not come at the cost of impeding the work that top universities do - let Oxford get on with saving the world whilst the other universities can help these kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. It's a bit like kissing frogs - sure you can get a poor kid from a broken family who shows some promise, but granting that sob story case kid a place at a university is the very act of kissing a frog: he may turn into a prince, he may be just another frog. Should we force top universities to do this frog kissing exercise or can the government come up with a different body to address this inequality in society whilst allowing the universities to simply get on with what they do best?
2. I think it's quite disgraceful to allow a student to pass through the entire education being so neglected and then at the age of 18 or 19, beg the university to make an exception for this poor kid. Intervention by the government needs to be done much, much earlier if you want to help poor kids like that rather than place that responsibility on the universities after having turned their backs on that kid for the first 18 years of his life.
3. Yes the US turned to Trump out of desperation, as the ultimate protest vote but look what happened - the US then gave up on Trump and voted for Biden after having realized that protest votes don't really work. It's like those monks who pour petrol on themselves then set themselves on fire in order to make a protest - like great, you've made your point oh and you've reduced yourself to a pile of ashes in the process. What lengths would one go to in order to make a point when you really want to protest? Surely the point of the protest would be to want things to get better, rather than allow the act of protest to literally reduce you to a pile of ashes in the process of protesting?
4. Thus I turn your attention to the case study of Wales - they voted for Brexit as a protest vote because they're a lot poorer than England, they want to make a point and get our attention. Then they realize, holy shit, the EU pours a lot of money into Wales because we are so poor and now we're not going to get that help; the British government certainly has no money to replace that EU money we're about to lose, holy shit, we've made a terrible mistake. Yes they've made a point by protesting but have only hurt themselves in the process instead of making things better - just like the monk who set himself on fire as a gesture of protest.
Yeah, the ivy league/Oxbridge isn't to blame for how a poor kid was treated aged 0-18 years old. That's the fault of the government and public schools, but its easier for politicians to scapegoat someone else through op-eds in the New York Times every now and then. But in America I think this sob-story admission business is also classism. The schools probably want to admit a poor kid that they know won't succeed, just to prove to everyone why they should only stick to admitting rich and middle class kids. If they admitted poor kids who suddenly did better than lazy rich kids whose parents donated to the school, then that would seriously expose them.
DeleteWow, nice metaphor with the monks immolating themselves. Yeah protesting doesn't achieve anything if you have zero leverage. And lol I didn't even know that the EU helped with UK poverty when the UK wouldn't, but that isn't surprising since the EU is more socialist and has more social programs. Frankly I don't know the solution to regional inequality in any country. Some countries have tried moving the capital city, bribing people to move out of dense areas and into less populated areas, or lowering taxes in certain regions to encourage companies to move there (Puerto Rico's case, but it didn't end well when the tax-breaks ended). Its just a bad hand to be dealt to not be born in an industrial center with more opportunities. Kinda makes me feel lucky I was born in a big city instead of a small town.
Hi Amanda, it's not that these Ivy League / Oxbridge type elite universities don't want to help, but it is totally unreasonable to place the responsibility of fixing the problem at their doorsteps when the government has done too little to help poor kids in the first 18 years of their education. No, the government has to do a lot more, a lot sooner and intervene when the kid is 5 years old, not wait till he is 18 and then pass the buck onto the universities. The governments need to do their jobs, not shirk their responsibilities by accusing these top universities of being too elitist. That's misrepresenting the situation.
DeleteThe EU has a lot of programmes to help fund projects in areas within the EU to help alleviate poverty. So for example, https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/19-things-european-funding-done-10939396 everything from swimming pools to railway stations to museums to sports centers, even highways and universities and power stations have been funded by money from the EU. But that's what governments do, they fund infrastructure projects so it will generate jobs and then the infrastructure (such as a new university campus, a new highway, a new sports facility etc) will be there for years to benefit the local community and continue employing more locals, lifting them out of poverty. Well Wales can kiss goodbye to all that now, they were too dumb to think it through before biting the hand that feeds in that gesture of protest.
I think instead of begging elite schools to accept an unprepared 18 year old, it would be far wiser to ask them to collaborate with nearby disadvantaged schools to provide extra-curricular programs. Many schools quietly already do this, including mine. But it takes far more work and is less glamorous than forcing Harvard to take a kid with a sob-story, which politicians like to pat themselves on the back for.
DeleteYeah, I agree with you that at the end of the day, Brexit wasn't about hating Europe at all. Brexit was about trying to hurt the "elites" in London, which tend to vote remain. Sad how it panned out though. Lol that welsh highway cost 800m pounds, of which a big chunk came from the EU. Yeah they really burned themselves, instead of getting more funding after Brexit, now they're getting less.
If a bright kid from a poor family has the grades to gain admission to Harvard or Oxford but cannot afford the fees, then sure give the poor kid a scholarship to s/he can complete that degree but if a poor kid from the inner city hasn't got the grades but has a compelling sob-story, then no, that's not up to the universities to fix that kid's problems in life.
DeleteIronically, the areas in the UK which are probably going to do better after Brexit would be the city of London, notably the banking sector because we're now free to do a lot of things that were a lot more regulated under EU law but now we're free to make up our own rules. So the rich will get richer and areas like Wales will suffer even more without EU support. Oh dear. How's that protest vote going? They have made their point but they've well and truly burnt themselves in the process. Ouch.
@Amanda since you are no longer in SG let me enlighten you on the government giving free money for people to attend courses.
Delete1) These are mainly just very basic language or skill courses nothing like an undergraduate course in NUS or NTU. In fact when I did my degree upgrade for my 2nd qualification I found out I could not utilise a single cent from this scheme.
2) I personally do not think the money is enough to be of any use. Most adults are given 1k and those over 40 get 1.5k (a driving license to be a taxi driver costs more than that). What is going to happen is that these training centres (PA etc) are just going to make a quick buck.
3) There is a common trope that you can lead a horse to water but can't force it to drink. My experience with these free training courses (I volunteer befriending elderly folks) is that everything they learnt just get forgotten. They are not going to use it to get a new skilled job (not enough training and/or motivation) or even apply the new knowledge in their daily lives.
4) Due to lack of competition, just like the recent SG discovery vouchers, course providers are just going to mark up the course price to increase their profits. So at the end of the day this "free" money is just a way to transfer tax payer monies to the rich.
I live in Tennessee and my family lives in Texas, both Trump states. Our observations about Trump voters is that they are exactly like your poor cousin who refused the school subsidy money. I find that funny since many American rich people will go through great lengths to pretend to be poor to get more scholarship money for their kids from universities, which award money based on need instead of merit.
ReplyDeleteBut another thing is that the Republican party's plan for lifting people out of poverty is jobs, which is very attractive for poor people. This reminds me of one of your old blogposts about the bus driver who won the lottery but wasn't accepted by the other rich people at the local country club. Many poor republican voters don't want to be someone who got wealthy only because someone felt sorry for them. They'd rather get a foot in the door with an entry level job and work their way up to earn their respect(Vera's plan basically).
Mathematically speaking the democrat's subsidies for housing/education are just a way of levelling the playing field for poor people to deal them similar cards to what rich people are born with. But a lot of poor people probably don't come into contact with enough rich people to see they were dealt worse cards through no fault of their own.
Another thing, the Democrat party is also just as elitist as the Republican party. The American equivalent of Oxbridge is the Ivy League + MIT/Stanford/Caltech/Chicago, and a lot of the top democrats went to school here. They tend to look down on jobs that don't require a college education, and blame people without a degree for their own poverty. A lot of Trump voters see Democrats as a bunch of ivy-league educated coastal elites advocating for green jobs and wiping out coal. Green jobs definitely require at least an engineering degree because they are more technologically sophisticated (coal is just setting things on fire, a solar panel requires quantum physics to get working).
Oh please, I lied to get a half price discount when I enrolled for some diving lessons years ago. I was told that I could get a half price discount if I was either a student or on low-income, all I had to do was tick a box on the form and nobody checked for like a student ID or anything like that. So I shamelessly ticked the box and paid student price for the lessons. I can't understand why my cousin said no to the free money - I love free money, please give me free money. I remember walking down the street in Buenos Aires and there was a gust of wind as I came around the corner and a note literally flew into my face - it was an 100 Argentinian peso note (about £1 or US$1.34) and even the thrill of literally getting free money like that was fun as it doesn't happen very often.
DeleteI can see why the Republicans' plan to offer more jobs for poor people to work their way out of poverty is attractive to them - but the problem is this: even if you gave someone like Vera a chance to work her way up the ladder, say we employ her as a legal clerk in the law firm and she has the foot in the door - can she prove herself and climb the ladder in the firm? I doubt it as the odds are against her: she isn't that intelligent, she is so working class and she is always going to lose out to your typical middle class graduate who has all the right social skills. The odds of Vera succeeding are so painfully low that it seems unfair even tempting her to play that game of climbing the corporate ladder. That's why I called the Republicans' promise to people like Vera a con because I know what Vera is like - she's always going to work low-paid jobs because that's all she can do. She's a personal trainer now, she can lead a fat, rich housewife through a pilates routine whilst offering a lot of encouragement; that's easy enough for Vera to do but it isn't well paid but that's kinda all she knows how to do. But like you said, Vera has been dealt worse cards through no fault of her own and at her age, I don't even know where to begin for her to try to fix the situation.
Oh and I refer you to the case study of Thatcher in the 1980s in my response to Bay above - that's the whole coal situation in the UK dealt with by her back in the 1980s.
Lol I know You specifically are a cheapskate whether you are poor or rich lol. Yeah your cousin should've thought that a few jeers from her peers about being poor is worth it if she gets all As and wins a place at university and a well-paid job afterwards. But all too often people don't think of the "Long Game." Your cousin is more scared of short term social pain from her peers than the long term winnings of climbing out of poverty. But a lot of young people struggle at looking at the long game...
DeleteI don't want to mention the elephant in the room when it comes to voting Republican - racism. My sister said in Texas she overheard some Trump voting colleagues of her's saying they never want a black man in the white house again after Obama. Some trump voters just really don't like hearing the Democrats' plans for social justice, and feel that poor whites are being ignored in favor of poor minorities.
However, in America, white people are extremely blind to classism. They have this notion of the "American Dream" where anyone can be middle class if they work hard enough that dates to the founding of the country. They also believe class doesn't exist because we don't have a monarchy and hereditary titles. However, America is just as classist as the UK. Regardless, poor white voters here don't see a difference between themselves and someone like Trump who has had every advantage in life. They think they can be just as successful as Trump if they just work hard, because that's the "legend" that America uses to distinguish itself from the UK.
Hi Amanda, I grew up poor, so I am conditioned to react a certain way when it comes to money. I would have chased that 100 peso note halfway across Buenos Aires if I realized that was money (luckily I didn't have to) but still, I am glad to have economics and statistics to use as a rational behaviour because it is a completely different approach to the knee-jerk emotional response I always first come up with - then I use a rationality to challenge myself. Just last week I went to the dentist and I was trying to get NHS treatment (ie. the cheap kind on the government that I am entitled to) and the receptionist said no we don't do NHS treatment here as we have reached our quota but if you're willing to go private, I can get you in tomorrow morning. A part of me wanted to say no thanks and hang up the phone but the rational part of me said, "hang on, did you say tomorrow morning? You mean I can get my fillings sorted by lunchtime tomorrow?" So I went ahead and booked it, paid for private treatment which was faster than being on a waiting list for NHS treatment. My instinct was to save money, but the rational side of my head told me, "just get it over and done with, they're offering to see you tomorrow morning! Get that chip on your tooth fixed!"
DeleteYour analysis is correct, spot-on. It's all about short terms pain vs long term gain. Take the money now, develop a thick skin if your classmates jeer at you for being poor and needing charity - use that money wisely to improve your grades so you can get into a top university, graduate with good grades and get a well paid job, achieve true social mobility. That required my cousin to think 15 years into the future, she wasn't able to do that - it was a big ask for a teenager only thinking about the next day or next week and the classmates who bully her for being so poor. Therein lies the problem of poor people unable to climb out of poverty.
As for racism, sure there is an element of that of course but I didn't want to talk about it - this piece was about why poor people (who can be black, white or Asian) vote for Trump, rather than a discussion about racism in America. Of course racism is a problem, but I am only analyzing one specific aspect of the election. Kamala Harris was on the ticket and she faced a lot of racism during this election.
Part 2 coming up.
Again you're spot on when it comes to Americans imagining that the US is a class-free society. You have a different system which comes with privileges for those of middle class and the odds stacked against those from working class backgrounds, but is that a bad thing? In Singapore, we also believe that it is a class-free society when it clearly isn't - it's just that in the UK, we call a spade a spade and acknowledge the fact that we have a social class system. But let me tell you why it is a good thing: people have hope based on the fact that they are oblivious that the odds are stacked against them. Is that a bad thing?
DeleteLet me give you an analogy from my army days. There were two separate platoons that contributed the guards to do guard duty at this old building during this exercise; those from my platoon were warned that the old building was haunted, we were given vivid description of how a man was killed there blah blah blah his ghost still lingers in the corridors of that building etc. The other platoon was given no information as their commander wasn't a psycho who took pleasure in scaring his soldiers with ghost stories. So I was a soldier who was given the ghost stories and I was quite nervous and scared that night. The other soldiers from the other platoon were relaxed and slept like babies. The moment I saw something move in the dark - it could have been a mouse, just the wind blowing the leaves across the yard or something equally harmless, the thought of ghosts had already been planted in my head and I would look around, my pulse would race and the adrenaline would be pumping through my veins. One of my friends even thought he saw a ghost (I didn't see anything that night).
If you had to spend a night at that "old house", would you rather have no information or have your head filled with ghost stories? In such circumstances, sometimes it is good to be ignorant of some facts, even if I can confirm that the old building had a reputation to be haunted, so the person who told me the stories didn't make them up, he had heard the stories himself from another person. Likewise, if the odds were stacked against you as a poor working class student, would you rather a) be filled with hope on the basis that as long as you work hard, you can get a good job when you graduate and have a bright future or b) give up because you realize that your odds of succeeding are so low 'cos life is so unfair?
I would say that a) is actually a good option as b) offers nothing but despair.
Oh yeah, at the high end of healthcare you pay to save time rather than for a higher quality of care. Because some rich people like your sister who works in healthcare are really short of time even if they aren't short on money. As a poor college student I used to only buy videogames that were on sale because I had very little money. Now I can buy almost any game I want, but if I wait for games to go on sale I might not have time to play them later. So nowadays I just pay the full price whenever I have time to play, otherwise I'd be wasting my own time since "hell weeks" are a huge problem in academia.
DeleteI guess this is the unfairness of not having good parents. Parents are usually the ones who play the "long game" for you when you're a kid. I grew up with parents who believe that relationships should be banned until I finish a bachelor's degree. But when I started dating I had very little experience since I had zero in high school and undergrad, and it was so awkward. However, my career is fine, so if I were to get into a relationship now I could easily afford (at least in the future) to get married, buy a house, have pets, have kids, etc. I understand now that my parents tried to play the "Long game" for me relationship wise to prevent me from focusing too much on pleasing a guy during highschool/undergrad, and give me the best start to my career possible to make a serious relationship more financially feasible. However, some days I wish I was allowed a few throwaway relationships as a kid so other people won't jeer at me too much for being too inexperienced.
Ahh yes, Asia is also pretty blind to classism in a similar way to America. I guess there is no perfect solution on what to tell a person. Would you rather they knew more about the system and how to beat it, at the risk of reducing hope? Or would you rather they had the best self-confidence/hope possible, at the risk of being naive about the system? Both things must be balanced, hope and knowledge, emotion and rationality. I'd say it depends on the person. There are some cold-blooded people who thrive on knowledge and finding loopholes in the system. Others require a passionate story to believe in (Trump voters, but Democrat voters can also be passionate).
I guess the real challenge for the government is how they can help kids from families where their parents are clueless or simply unable to help their children in any way. What help is there for them? Let me tell you what I did last weekend which was a bit cruel but I needed to make a point: I have been giving my nephew tuition (I call them tutorials, mostly just discussions to check if he knows how to apply what he has learnt in an exam situation) and my mother has been making dumb-ass suggestions like "he needs to read the newspaper more" and I'm like, how's that going to help his critical thinking? So I gave her and my sister a difficult exam question and my mother was completely dumbfounded - she couldn't understand the question or give an intelligent reply, at least she had the humility to conceded, "now I realize how difficult it is". And at the back of my mind I was thinking, "at least I'm trying my best to help my nephew - you are way too stupid to have offered me any help with my studies because you're simply not educated enough to handle anything difficult." So if you just compare my nephew to myself, I had to figure out all this complex stuff out at school with no help whilst I can push my nephew to the limit giving him the kind of attention that his classmates will never get from their teachers. I got lucky with the genetic lottery and was in a position to figure stuff out for myself with little or no help - but it seems unfair that my nephew is able to get to that same position with a lot of help, when some of his classmates could get to where they need to be but simply are not getting the help they need, so what about them then?
DeleteAs for the "ignorance is bliss" situation as described in the last paragraph, quite frankly, I don't know. Hope is always good, even if it based on a misunderstanding of the facts. If you don't even try, you will never have any chance of succeeding. So it's like the lottery - if you know how poor the odds are, you will never even buy a ticket. But if you do buy the ticket nonetheless based on a misunderstanding of your odds, at least now you do stand a chance of winning something. That certainly was my case as a child - I had no idea just how poor my odds were. I was naive but hey, that worked in my favour because I tried really hard. If I was told, "don't bother, you'll NEVER succeed no matter how hard you try", I might have just given up on myself.
To be fair Alex, your nephew has autism which does put him at a slight social disadvantage compared to his peers, so its nice he gets some extra mentorship from his uncle. That phrase "it takes a village to raise a child" rings very true, which is why a lot of outreach programs involve mentorships between people who aren't related.
DeleteI don't think telling people about their disadvantage necessarily has to mean telling them they won't succeed because the odds are slim. What people should be doing is saying "the odds are worse given the cards you've been dealt, but that just means you have to do things unconventionally to succeed." We only have to look at Tommy from your previous blogpost and how he managed to succeed in banking. You mentioned he left school without qualifications and worked his way up through job experience instead of going to an elite university, getting a degree, and using that to apply for a job at a prestigious investment bank.
It may be harder to be Tommy, not having the name of a university to hide behind or mentors to teach him the conventional ropes. But you said Tommy did things unconventionally and made a lot of money, and surely any boss would reward that.
Honestly I think some things in the traditional path are a farce, like a PhD. Apparently some students and professors think you shouldn't need to publish original research as prerequisite to get a PhD because "students have stressful classes to deal with already, and peer reviewers may reject the paper." But if someone doesn't do original research which is appreciated by the scientific community, what is the point of a PhD over a bachelors degree? Jeezus even Stanford lets students get a PhD without publishing anything. I would rather hire a poly graduate with several years in industry developing original technology that made lots of money than a whiny PhD graduate trying to convince me they are worth something when the thesis they spent 5 years on is not much better than a worthless undergrad project, even if their PhD is from Stanford.
I'm in two minds about this - I always believe that one should put emotions aside and look at statistics, so take a simple example buying a lottery ticket. Some people may buy it because they hope to win the lottery for the prize money would change their lives, they are buoyed by the optimistic and hope - whereas I would do the math and calculate the odds of actually winning then I would decline to even buy that ticket. That's why I have visited the casinos in Singapore, Las Vegas and Macao and didn't spend a single dollar gambling whilst walking through the splendid casinos, observing all these people gambling.
DeleteTalking about rich people lying, wasn't it not too far back where rich people in Mercedes Benz were going to collect free school textbooks in Singapore? I'm would unashamedly lie to reduce my income tax or get subsidies since I know that rich people don't stay rich by spending more money but less. Also I don't put a monetary value on face like the more traditional boomers.
DeleteHi Sandra, I was expecting a reply from you. Allow me to make the following points please:
ReplyDelete1. I wasn't writing a piece entitled "why do people vote for the Republican party" and then listing the reasons. That would have led to a very different article indeed. No, instead my friend Jean challenge me to write an article specifically analyzing the poorest Americans who still always vote Republican every time, so that gave me a far more narrow focus on this article. So that was my angle, what you wrote in the first paragraph is true of course - but that wasn't the issue I was try to tackle in this post. I was just answering Jean's question.
2. Indeed, even North Korea and Cuba allows for some degree of capitalism these days and in North Korea, the Kim family's inner circle enjoys a very high standard of living - there isn't the kind of 'equality' that socialism is supposed to achieve even in North Korea because of corruption. Thus you end up with different variations of government systems (such as the Singaporean approach to housing vs the British approach as you've described) so it is no longer a socialism vs capitalism debate, but a far more nuanced debate focusing on which political party has a better system to solve the most pressing needs in our society. But yet in America, Trump goes on and on and on about socialism and his supporters are buying his rhetoric.
3. Yup, stupidity is a major problem. As discussed above with Bay, it is hard to help stupid people even if you go out of your way to try to give them free stuff that's good for them. It reminds me of this story of a cat that got stuck in a tree, a fireman climbed up the tree to try to help it. The cat got suspicious of the fireman, scratched the fireman and then climbed even higher and the fireman then said, "my ladder is only so long and now I can't reach the cat, there's nothing more I can do. Your cat will come down that tree when it wants to come down."
Sorry I spotted a typo: 1. "my friend Jean challengeD me to write"
ReplyDeleteOh yes, religion - the opium for the masses. Rich people have the money to go do fun things that make them feel good, but that costs a lot of money. Poor people can go to church on Sunday, sing hallelujah and praise the lord - that's the only kind of fun they can afford. What you said is 100% true of course. And as for the pro-life voter, well that's a single issue voter. But you raise a very good point, there are a large number of disenfranchised voters who feel that neither Republicans nor Democrats will help them - 8 years of Obama and there are still so many poor people in America. So these poor people either vote on single issues (as you've described) or simply not vote at all.
ReplyDeleteIf not for Trump's mishandling of COVID, he would had won the election easily.
ReplyDeleteWell, I don't believe it was one issue that led to his failure to win a second term, it was so many other factors that led to him getting elected in the first place. We have to go back to the Obama era where the poor in America didn't see the rise in living standards compared to those working in Wall Street or Silicon Valley - hence we're talking about the politics of envy here, rather than poor people genuinely starving. If he was able to deliver on the economic front and raise the standards of living for all of these poor people who voted for him, then I think he would have easily won a second term and then COVID came along, he was out of his depth. Way out of his depth - but the bottom line was, there were so many people who felt left behind, left out and excluded under Obama that they voted for Trump out of desperation as a protest vote. When those voters gave Trump their protest vote, they expected something in return and they clearly didn't get what they hoped for - that's why they turned on him. But it's a complex situation with so many factors, COVID being one of many factors.
DeleteWell, I agreed that it is a complex situation and yes, there is a percentage of voters who had turned on Trump due to the reasons you had stated, but I believe COVID is the biggest factor of them all.
DeleteFirstly, there will always be a group of Americans whose standard of living will not improve significantly even during the strongest of economy. Yes, some of them may get disappointed and turned on him. But there is a significant percentage of them who will believe whatever Trump said - and we all know how good Trump is in deflecting blame to others, and how much influence he has over many Americans.
It is a fact that Trump's mishandling of COVID had caused thousands and thousands of Americans to lose their lives and jobs, directly or indirectly, and the Democrats made sure of this fact hit home during the election campaign.
Donald Trump won more than 70 million votes, the second highest total in American history. Nationally, he has more than a 47% share of his vote.
I cannot imagine the kind of margin he could had won if not for COVID and if the economy was doing well ( The economy was doing strong before COVID hit ), not mentioning the advantage of incumbency: the twin factors that usually secure a sitting president a second term.
历史不可假设. However, Trump 2020 election results is very good, considering the poor economy and loss of American lives. I do not see the US economy being weak if there is no COVID. Hence, I strongly believe Trump will win the election if not for the epidemic.
Well yes, on that point, I do agree with you - I did think that Trump had a good chance of winning even in light of Covid and without Covid, he would have won a second term easily. But of course, I can't hide my joy and glee that he lost and am enjoying reading the news everyday to see his legal challenges fall apart; I particularly enjoy watching American comedians like Stephen Colbert and Seth Meyers rip him apart and mock Trump in their routines on Youtube.
DeleteI'm a little late to this conversation but since I know nothing about US voter habits I won't comment.
ReplyDeleteHowever, LIFT how do you consider the political leaning of PAP in SG? They are right wing when it comes to medical insurance and retirement funds (CPF) but I when it comes to low taxation and courting of MNCs with their very capitalistic policies they lean hard left.
It's ironical how Trump and his supporters act all surprised with the results and scream voter fraud. If an incumbent loses, he only has himself to blame. Despite his boasts and bravado, he was not able to show real leadership during the crisis. To be honest, I don't think Biden could have done this either, but this election was a more an appraisal of Trump's performance than a validation of Biden's capabilities. The former should even be thankful that he got 74 million voters (2nd highest in history) despite this fiasco.
ReplyDeleteIn a side note, the US mainstream media should try to be less left-wing biased and focus more on factual as opposed to opinion based articles. This biasness drives the equally sizeable conservative viewers to conspiracy theory sites like Newsmax and Fox News though the latter is more center right. These sites are just giving more strength and credibility to the Cult of Trump
Sorry I just realised after I posted that I got my right and left wing policies mixed up. But then I only slept 6 hrs after working 11 hrs straight on Sun....
ReplyDelete