Saturday, 31 October 2020

Fact check: Yonden Lhatoo's warning to HKers about the UK

Hi there, I am usually quite a big fan of the South China Morning Post's (SCMP) Youtube channel as they do give us quite a balanced view of affairs from Hong Kong and most notably, their rather anti-Beijing, pro-democracy stance. But I was rather taken aback by a recent post by Yoden Lhatoo about emigrating to the UK which contained a lot of misleading half-truths, so in today's post, I am simply going to fact check some of the claims that he has made in this video because it is ultimately an opinion piece, rather than a news report. So to begin, here's the Youtube video below for you to watch. 

Claim 1: "The streets of London were in fact not paved with gold". 

Fact check: You're mixing truth and lies about what people believe. 

No shit Sherlock, really? I have lived in London for 23 years and I don't think anyone has come to this city with such expectations. The population of London is 9 million and like any other big city in the world, London has a lot of opportunities to offer in various industries from finance to tourism to fashion to showbiz to just about any sector you can think of but nobody is going to hand you a wad of cash just for showing up! You're expected to earn your keep, prove yourself and those of us who do flock to the city with big dreams are only hoping to be given the chance to prove ourselves, that's all. Now I need to point out that many who do come to London are from smaller towns and rural areas because such opportunities aren't available where they came from but Hong Kong is a big city as well with 7.5 million people. So by all means, there is no lack of opportunities in a city like Hong Kong, but just like London, the streets of Hong Kong are not paved with gold either - in fact, there isn't a single city in the world where the streets are in fact paved with gold. Oh please. Get real. I think Lhatoo is somewhat unfair to the Hong Kongers who are seriously considering this prospect of moving to the UK - they're not naive enough to believe that the streets of London are indeed paved with gold, that life would somehow be super easy here in the UK. They just want to leave Hong Kong because of the current political situation and they realize that it is virtually impossible to win this battle against the Beijing government in the long run - that's why they want to leave. It has nothing to do with having unrealistic expectations about how easy it would be to earn money in the UK. So whilst his claim of the streets of London not being paved with gold is correct, he is implying that those who are thinking of taking this offer to move to the UK actually believe that to be the case and that's not true. So, that's when he craftily mixes truth and lies to make it harder for you to figure out whether or not what he said is true. 

Claim 2: Unemployment in Britain has been at its highest in more than three years, rising to 10%.

Fact check: True but this is actually a massive red herring.

Yes whilst the unemployment rate in the UK has always been higher than that in Hong Kong, we're not proud of that but that's mostly because of the welfare state which makes it easier for people to become unemployed - despite having been a British colony for so long, Hong Kong has a very different system so the unemployed can get a bit of help from the government but it is not generous at all. But if Lhatoo's point is that migrants from Hong Kong won't be able find jobs because of the high unemployment rate - I have to challenge that. A lot of whether or not you can find a job or not depends on your personal circumstances: are you highly educated or are you a high school drop out? Are you a highly skilled professional or have you been only doing unskilled, low-paid jobs? Do you speak many languages or are you hopelessly monolingual? Do you have exceptionally good social skills or do you totally suck at job interviews? Do you have many years of valuable work experience?  There are so many factors that determine how employable you are - therefore just pointing to the unemployment rate is a complete red herring. I compare this to the situation in Singapore: there is hardly any unemployment in Singapore for a simple reason - neither the government nor the citizens of Singapore believe in a welfare state. If you're unemployed, you're forced to either take low-paid work or starve (or depend on your family to support you). This is why we have the elderly in Singapore still working low-paid jobs such as clearing dishes at food courts because they cannot afford to retire - thus the low rate of unemployment isn't so much a sign that Singapore's economy is doing super well. If you moved to Singapore tomorrow, there's absolutely no guarantee that you would find a good job if you just don't have the right skills. In any case, we're in the middle of a Covid-19 induced recession - all economies around the world (including Hong Kong's) have taken a sharp hit as a result, so the UK is not different by that token. Thus any talk of the UK's high unemployment rate is really quite misleading: a red herring indeed. 

Claim 3: The new migrants from HK will not be able to claim benefits and have to support themselves.

Fact check: I don't think they want to come to the UK to live on benefits!

Lhatoo points out that the new migrants from Hong Kong will not qualify for any kind of benefits and must support themselves financially for at least six months - they then have to be self-sufficient for up to seven years before they can become British citizens. Whilst all this is true, I think it is once again a red herring. Lhatoo pretty much described the path that other migrants like myself had to take before I could naturalize as a British citizen - however, even after I did become a British citizen, I never did take a single penny in any kind of welfare payments. No - that's reserved for poor people who desperately need help and let's just say I am relatively rich. On top of that, I am well educated, ambitious and I have dreams - I didn't come to London to simply exist on the periphery of society, barely getting by on welfare benefits which by the way, are not generous at all. I'm sure you've all read about how the government is refusing to provide free school meals to the children of the poorest of the poorest in the UK. It is a fucking miserable existence to be so destitute to have to beg the government for free food for your starving children. Yes there are a lot of poor people in the UK but I don't think the Hong Kongers who do choose to move to the UK have any intention of living like that - heck, being Chinese (ethnic stereotype I know), they want to earn money, become successful and show the folks back home that they have made it in the UK. There's a great saying in Chinese: 好馬不吃回頭草 - in this context, it means that those who have chosen this path will not return to where they have come from, instead they will do whatever it takes to prove to everyone that they have made the right choice. Thus it is no surprise that amongst all the ethnic groups in the UK, the Chinese are the richest - hence we are so much richer than the white people here, mostly because of the "好馬不吃回頭草" mindset! 

There is already a sizable Chinese diaspora in the UK anyway given the links between Hong Kong and Britain, with 1997 giving many the push they needed to make the difficult decision to move to the UK. Currently there are already 111,733 people in the UK who are born in Hong Kong according to the 2011 census, however that doesn't include people like my friend Jack who was born in England but both his parents are from Hong Kong and he still closely identifies with Hong Kong despite being born here. Overall, the British Chinese community number 433,150 according to the 2011 census and thus that number will include people like me who were born in Singapore as well as my friend Jack who was born here. So the migrants from Hong Kong easily account for more than a quarter of the Chinese community here in the UK and we're doing pretty darn well as an ethnic group, thank you very much. Lhatoo hasn't realized that this is mostly because those who do move to the UK are usually highly educated graduates and professionals who are not your average Hong Konger, this is because we need to meet pretty strict criteria before we even get the work permit to work in the UK. So this filter creates the illusion that we are the model minority who work so hard and earn so much more than white people when really, the local white English are not banished from England if they become unemployed. People who are interested in moving to the UK will do their research before making that big decision whether to actually move or not and most will only decide to move if they know that they will be better off in the UK. I trust these migrants from Hong Kong to do their homework and arrive at a sensible decision because moving to another country is not an easy decision. 

Claim 4: Immigration consultants expect mostly unskilled youngsters and those trying to escape prosecution for protest related crimes to take up the citizenship offer. Not the usually sought after professionals.

Fact check: Holy crap, where do I even begin? He is wrong on so many levels. 

Lhatoo is probably assuming that the people who were on the streets protesting didn't have to be in the office because they were unemployed or had such terrible, shitty jobs that they would rather protest in the streets than go to work. There is however, a happy medium to be struck in this case however - I hate to use anecdotal evidence but allow me to use myself as an example. I left Singapore because I had become very disillusioned with both the Singaporean government and Singaporean society (the two go hand in hand, the PAP wouldn't be in power without the support of the people) - however, I never once protested against the government, never even got a parking ticket or arrested for something minor like jaywalking. In fact, I wasn't just a law-abiding citizen, I was a triple scholar and former national champion gymnast. I was nothing like the kind of 'unskilled youngster' or criminal trying to escape prosecution when I decided to leave Singapore and move to the UK - instead, I was apolitical and saw that as a private matter, a decision I had to make for myself. my happiness and my future and I didn't have to justify it to anyone but myself. I had no intention of challenging the authority of the Singaporean government or changing the minds of my fellow Singaporeans, instead I simply wanted to leave quietly and peacefully to start a new life in London. Lhatoo assumes that the professionals who are gainfully employed in Hong Kong would not want to leave because they have good jobs there and thus have little to complain about - but many of those who do take up on this offer to move to the UK would be highly skilled, highly educated professionals like myself who will simply arrange the paperwork quietly and then get on that plane to London without making any fuss. What makes Lhatoo think that well educated, highly skilled professionals in Hong Kong are completely happy with the current status quo under Carrie Lam? Even if they aren't in the streets protesting, it doesn't mean that they are completely happy with the situation - quite a number would just leave quietly once the opportunity is presented. 

Claim 5: Lhatoo talks about other countries with better prospects and quality of life than Britain. 

Fact check: Totally misleading. 

The most popular destinations for migrants from Hong Kong include Canada, New Zealand and Australia - then there are other countries as well like America, Singapore and of course, the UK. Do these countries offer better prospects and quality of life than Britain? That's the wrong answer to ask! If you're on your way to London with an extremely lucrative job offer from an investment bank, then the money you earn enable you to live an incredibly good life. But if you're poor, then it really doesn't matter whether you're in Hong Kong, Canada, New Zealand or New Zealand, life is going to really suck for you because you are working really long hours just to make ends meet. How good your prospects are depend entirely on the quality of your CV and the quality of your life depends on how rich you are - these are factors that vary person to person, rather than country to country. So for Lhatoo to talk about the UK as if it is such a terrible place compared to other countries, well that's totally misrepresenting the situation here. If we were to take GDP per capita as the measure of "prospects" and "quality of life" in a country, then according to both the IMF and the World Bank, Singapore is actually the second richest country in the world but do all residents in Singapore have equally good prospects and quality of life? Hell no, there is a huge disparity between the rich and the poor - not all Singaporeans are crazy rich Asians just because it is the richest country in Asia and the second richest country in the world. The wealth is not equally shared amongst all citizens and the Singaporean government isn't really that interested in redistributing the wealth from the rich to the poor and indeed, there are some very poor Singaporeans leading absolutely wretched, miserable lives in one of the world's richest countries. Hence any talk about prospects or quality of life without even mentioning one's individual circumstances is totally misleading. So the quality of your life ultimately depends a lot more on your personal wealth rather than other factors like a country's GDP per capita or the kind of government of a country.

Claim 6: The Covid-19 situation is so much worse in the UK than in Hong Kong. 

Fact check: True but what are the practical implications of this? 

No one is denying the fact that Hong Kong has handled the Covid-19 situation extremely well - there have only been 5,309 cases so far in Hong Kong, just 105 deaths (at the time I am writing this) and usually less than ten new cases a day. This is in sharp contrast to the situation in most European countries right now which are experiencing a massive second wave of infections and deaths. As for the statistics in the UK right now, the case numbers are meaningless as testing is still woefully inadequate and whilst we have officially 917,575 cases, the actual number is many times more than that given that people are only asked to get a test when they show symptoms, this misses out of the large number of asymptomatic cases. Even our death toll of 45,365 (at the time I am writing this) is a massive under reporting and the real number (when you look at excess deaths) would be around 65,000 instead. So whilst it is absolutely true that the British government has been totally fucking incompetent when it came to Covid-19, the other side of the coin is that it is still mostly the elderly and the vulnerable who fell very ill and died. At 44 years old, I'm not exactly one of these young men who feels invincible, but otherwise life still goes on pretty much as normal for me. I'm still working hard, I'm going to the gym, I'm seeing my friends, I even went on traveling to five countries this summer. Lhatoo is giving the impression that if you move to the UK, you're going to die of Covid - that's not really true, you'll probably die if you're over 80, obese and have a pre-existing medical condition that makes you more susceptible but for ordinary folks like me, I'm not really that worried or concerned about the situation. It is more an inconvenience that I have to put up with, like having to wear masks all the time now and not being able to do all those things I love like going to the theater. So please, let's put things in perspective: of course I'm quite annoyed because I have been inconvenienced but I'm certainly not dying of Covid-19. 

Claim 7: Lhatoo talks about the racist attacks against Chinese looking Asians in the UK. 

Fact check: This is totally blown out of proportion, very exaggerated. 

I'm not denying that in the early days of the pandemic, there was some anti-Chinese racism because the virus did originate from Wuhan, China. There was also that attack that took place in central London when Singaporean student Jonathan Mok was brutally beaten up by four white youths after being insulted about the virus - that was not the only incident and they made the headlines. However, Lhatoo makes it sound as if Chinese people are constantly being attacked everyday in the UK, that we're afraid to even leave our houses because of the threat of such racist attacks - again, that's completely untrue. After work today, I took the train to the gym, I met my friends (a mix of Italian, Polish, Spanish, Indian and British friends) there and then I went to the supermarket on my way home. The journey itself was uneventful and boring, apart from the fact that my Overground train was delayed by about ten minutes - that was the only part of the journey that irked me. At no time did I ever feel unsafe or that anyone was going to attack me because I am Chinese-looking and East Asian origin (technically speaking, I'm mixed Eurasian but that's another story for another day). Sure I get upset when I read about incidents of racism in the news, but I've yet to personally experience any Covid-related racism personally in London. The fact is London is a very cosmopolitan city with people from all over the world living here - only 62% of London is white and even if you do meet a white person, s/he could be an immigrant from somewhere like Poland, Estonia or Hungary. There are areas in London like Brent, Hounslow and Tower Hamlets where white people are in the minority - there are parts of England which are a lot more white, with far fewer ethnic minorities but if these migrants from Hong Kong are really that worried about racism, then they can always choose to live in a big city like London, where the many ethnic minorities here have always been a part of the multi-cultural identity of the city. 

Furthermore, Lhatoo neglects the fact that racism doesn't affect all Chinese people equally - one's personal wealth and job plays a huge role in whether or not you will be encounter racism. If you worked in a low-end customer service job like in McDonald's, your chances of encountering abusive behaviour is a lot highter. My friend Brenda had worked in McDonald's as a part time job when she was a student and she explained to me what she encountered there, "people think they can speak to you like you're nothing, for the slightest thing - like if you made them wait a few minutes for their food, because they ordered a special burger and it is being prepared for them, but they expect to see it within like 30 seconds, they'll yell at me as if it was my fault. It's like we don't deserve any respect or dignity just because we take a job like that, they think you're the scum of the earth, the lowest of the low. Even though I'm black, I don't think I ever got any kind of racist abuse but that doesn't mean I didn't get abuse - what I'm saying is that my white colleagues got just as much abuse and they weren't spared that abuse because they had fair skin and blonde hair. In hindsight, I should have never worked there but I was so young and naive back then." In sharp contrast, I have mostly been working from home during the pandemic and since I work in banking providing a B2B service within financial services, I would never ever come across a random member of public the way Brenda had to at McDonald's. So a Chinese immigrant to the UK is far more likely to encounter racist abuse (or just abuse regularly, as Brenda points out - abuse is abuse, whether racism is involved or not) if s/he is working in a low-end customer service role as opposed to a well-paid professional job. Mind you, the exact same principle applies in Hong Kong (and any other big city in the world) as well - very poor people with crap jobs will suffer a lot more abuse. So may I state the obvious: it really sucks to be poor anywhere - even Hong Kong!

Claim 8: Anti-immigration is real - that's what Brexit is all about, remember. 

Fact check: Again, very misleading - the devil is in the detail. 

I feel that we need to look at the details of this statement to understand the situation better - the Brexit vote was a hugely divisive issue and in the end, it passed by a tiny margin of 51.9% to leave vs 48.1% to remain. The nature of democracy means that we have a winner takes all situation whereby the majority wins, no matter how slim the victory may have been and in this case, 51.9% is barely scraping through. Many parts of the UK such as London, Scotland and other big cities like Birmingham and Manchester actually voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Lhatoo is implying that 100% of the voters in Britain voted for Brexit and that 100% of British people are anti-immigrant - that's not true of course and if he is using the Brexit referendum result to justify this claim, then that is so misleading  given how close the results were and how huge the regional variations were. Looking at the results in more details, you will see that some areas like the richer cosmopolitan cities being very pro-EU and some poorer rural areas being very pro-Brexit - the devil is in the details. This is because these poor rural areas are already struggling and they are afraid of all these Eastern European migrants coming over to the UK, competing for the few half-decent jobs they have locally. Whereas in a place like London, well we're not fussed about migrants coming over from Eastern Europe to 'take our jobs' - when my company closed down our London back office and relocated all those jobs to Tallinn, my former colleagues merely spent their redundancy payments on lavish extended holidays, before finding equally well-paid jobs in London - there was no panic whatsoever when they had to undertake that transition. So for Lhatoo to imply that the entire country is pro-Brexit and anti-immigrant as a reason to dissuade Hong Kongers from moving to the UK is quite misleading because he has selectively picked information to make Britain look racist and ignored anything to the contrary - he did not present a reasonable argument. 

Claim 9: There's a whole new world of pain coming to Britain given the way they are mucking up Brexit.

Fact check: True but again, different people are going to be affected differently. 

Oh I don't doubt that Boris Johnson is a fucking moron who is fucking up Brexit badly, yeah I can't tell you just how much I hate Boris Johnson. The people who had put their faith in him and his bunch of lies deserve exactly what they are getting when this whole new world of pain comes. However! The devil is once again in the detail: those who will be hit hardest are the poor, not the rich. Our currency the pound sterling has already lost 20% after the Brexit vote and it may lose even more value due to a chaotic Brexit. We import a lot of food in the UK so food prices will go up - we don't grow coffee in the UK (too cold) and so if I walk into the supermarket and see that the price of the usual coffee I buy has gone up by 20%, I might grumble about having to pay more but I'll buy it anyway because I need my caffeine hit in the morning and I'm rich - I can still afford it. But if poor people are faced with the fact that food prices have gone up by 20%, then they have no spare cash to spend to cover that increase in prices: they would either have to make cuts elsewhere (spending less on clothing, entertainment, transport, education etc) in order to buy the same food they used to consume or they would have to make cuts within their supermarket shopping, buying either less food or lower quality, cheaper alternatives. There will be shocks to the economy and businesses will suffer - so if you're running a local restaurant, when there is a whole new world of pain, people will not spend as much money, they will eat out less and they would choose cheaper alternatives like buying food from the supermarket instead, so the restaurant will have less business and they may have to lay off some of their staff if they cannot make as much money due to poor business, this is a vicious cycle. So it is true that some people are indeed going to suffer of course as this Brexit shit show continues, but some will suffer a lot more than others. So the poorest in our society are going to be suffering the most, whilst the rich will be fine.

How does this affect would-be migrants from Hong Kong then? Well, time for a dose of common sense: hypothetically speaking, if a lowly-educated, unskilled manual labourer from Hong Kong somehow gets his hands on one of these BNO passports and is thus eligible to move to the UK, then undoubtedly he is going to have a totally miserable life in the UK working in a very lowly paid job! But if you are a  banker moving to the UK on a very lucrative contract from a top investment bank, then you will still have a pretty good life in the UK because you have the means to buy everything you need to have a very high standard of living. Furthermore, for someone like myself who works in an international business, I have clients everywhere from Chile to China - quite unlike the local restaurant who is dependent on the local community supporting it to make money, I'm able to do business with people from halfway around the world. This is why I am not going to suffer like the guys working at local restaurant during a recession because I'm able to say, "okay so Covid-19 is hitting South America really hard, but things are a lot better in Hong Kong, China and Taiwan." So I can simply change my marketing strategy, shelf my Latin American business plans and just focus on the Chinese markets instead - all from the comfort of my living room since I've mostly been working from home during the Covid-19 pandemic. This reminds me of the time when I told my parents that my old friend Sue, a former classmate from Singapore is moving to Manila - now my parents think of the Philippines as this very poor country, where most people are desperate to leave and work abroad in search for better paid jobs. So they were confused as to why my friend Sue would want to move to Manila, like isn't she going to see a big drop in her living standards there? Oh man, I just rolled my eyes and said, "do you have any idea how much money that company is going to pay Sue? You seriously have no idea how rich Sue is and how much she earns?" The Filipino economy may be a hot mess but nonetheless Sue is one of those crazy rich Asians. 

Claim 10: HK has lower crime rates, low taxes, high quality and efficiency of services, good public transport, good public health care - you can kiss all that goodbye if you move to the UK. 

Fact check: A lot of half truths mixed in there with lies in a deliberate attempt to mislead. 

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of Hong Kong but Lhatoo makes the UK sound more like Nigeria or Tanzania and even in such places, life isn't that horrific either. Let's deal with each of the items he mentioned: it's not like the UK has such high crime rates that we're afraid to leave our houses - yes there is more crime than in Hong Kong but there are huge disparities in terms of crime rates depending on where you live. Poor people cannot afford to live in nice neighbourhoods, so they are forced to settle for cheaper housing in areas with higher crime rates, where there is gang violence and drug dealers on your doorstep. Yes the situation is pretty grim for poor people but for richer folks, they are spared such issues: I have a good friend who lives in an expensive condominium complex in London - there is only one entrance where you need to get past security and without an electronic key fob to get through the secondary gate, you can't enter the compound unless the security guard (who is there 24-7) lets you in. During the lock down, I cycled a lot because it was a form of exercise that allowed me to get out of the house - I explored the local neighbourhood of Primrose Hill on my bike rides which is one of the most exclusive areas in London and most of the streets in Primrose Hill have private security. The fact is if you have money, you will gladly spend some of that money to make yourself feel safer where you live and that's money well spent - only the poor who don't have any money are at the mercy of the dangerous criminals that lurk around in dark corners within the communities where they live. So when it comes to crime rates, the fact is if you're poor, you're fucked. But if you're rich, you're going to be just fine! So if you're a rich person from Hong Kong looking to move to the UK, you have nothing to worry about. But if you're poor, then you're better off choosing a society that offers you the best chances at social mobility to escape your poverty, rather than looking at the other issues. 

As for low taxes, well have you seen how the poorest in Hong Kong live in cage homes? Have you seen the number of homeless people in Hong Kong? Part of the reason why taxes are so low in Hong Kong is because of the government refusing to spend more money taking care of the very poorest in society there. The poor are blamed for their predicament, so instead of offering help all they get is shame from society, they are labeled as lazy or stupid and if they are homeless, then that's their fault for not having worked harder to earn more money. Yes we pay higher taxes in the UK and that is a bid to redistribute the wealth from the rich to the poor - is that such a bad thing? We have a progressive tax system, that means those like me who earn a lot of money pay more in taxes, whilst the poor who earn very little hardly pay any taxes but are net beneficiaries in the system - meaning that they receive more in benefits than actually they pay in taxes. Is this system perfect? No it isn't, but at least there is some attempt to help the poor in the UK. There is a very high price to be paid for low taxes in Hong Kong and it is the poorest in Hong Kong society who can least afford it who are ultimately paying that price - is that something to be proud of? I don't think so! Moving onto our public transport system, it may not be the best in the world and it may not be as cheap as in Hong Kong, but most big cities in the UK have a pretty decent public transport system. It isn't perfect but it is not as if it is unsafe or falling apart. The only places I have been disappointed with public transport are Argentina and Georgia - both of these countries are very sparsely populated, so there just isn't enough demand from the locals there to justify investment in a decent public transport system hence it is extremely limited in some areas. I'll complain about the public transport in Argentina but not in the UK. 

On the topic of quality public health care, Lhatoo isn't fair to the UK's NHS. Many would point to our poor handling of the Covid-19 pandemic as evidence that the NHS doesn't work but there are other European countries like Belgium, the Netherlands, Czech Republic, France and even Switzerland who have been hit very hard as well by Covid-19 despite having very good health systems. Allow me to use the example of the micro-nation of San Marino which I actually visited back in September for a short holiday - the Covid-19 death toll there is just 42 and you might think, that's a low number, even lower than Hong Kong's so they must be doing well, right? But when you take into account San Marino's tiny population and calculate the deaths per population, that adjusted figure shoots San Marino to number in terms of the Covid-19 deaths per population (in second place is Peru, followed by Belgium). It's not that San Marino doesn't have a public health care system - it is a small and rich country with a well funded public healthcare system but the key reason why Europe is hit so hard by Covid-19 is because countries like Italy, France, the UK, Spain and San Marino have much older populations due to our shockingly low birth-rates. So there are far more old people around in these countries who are vulnerable to Covid-19, compared to places like Africa or India, where the population is a lot younger as the birth-rate is a lot higher and mind you, they have much worse public healthcare systems. So whilst I want to acknowledge how great Hong Kong's public healthcare system is, it is unfair to dismiss the UK's healthcare system the way Lhatoo did - honestly, things are really not that bad here in the UK. We got hit harder by Covid-19 because of our ageing population. 

Claim 11: Those who end up leaving are going to be deeply disappointed and desperate to return home to HK.

Fact check: Again, completely misleading and he made too many assumptions. 

Once again, Lhatoo has based this assumption on the condition of the UK economy and the current mess we're in right now rather than making each individual immigrant take responsibility for their personal decisions. Will migrants from Hong Kong end up deeply disappointed in the UK? That will depend on so many factors like whether or not they can find a well paid job in the UK - that in turn will depend on whether or not they are highly educated, highly skilled and are thus very attractive to employers. At that level, then conditions will vary from individual to individual - if you do have the skills to get a good job in Hong Kong, then you're probably going to be fine in the UK. If you are uneducated, unskilled and doing a terrible, lowly paid job in Hong Kong, then your fortunes are not going to change just because you move to the UK. Thus how well these migrants ultimately fare in the UK depends entirely on themselves, rather than all of these other factors that Lhatoo has talked about in this piece. Lhatoo makes the mistake of lumping all of the migrants from Hong Kong bound for the UK into a monolithic entity when really, they needed to be treated as individuals and you cannot make any kind of assumptions about them as a group per se. Moving to another country is a big undertaking and it is up to the individual to make it work - let's compare it to going to university: are you going to graduate with brilliant results or are you going to do so badly and end up deeply disappointed, unable to graduate? A lot depends on the individual and how hard s/he works towards that degree - the university cannot promise or guarantee anything, the individual student needs to take personal responsibility to ensure that s/he gets the grades s/he needs to graduate. Lhatoo didn't once touch upon the concept of personality responsibility, which really weakens his entire argument against moving to the UK. 

Claim 12: "Let's hope Beijing is benevolent enough to let them back in without retaliation."

Fact check: That's highly unlikely, as long as you remain apolitical. 

First of all, it is completely legal for Hong Kongers to have more than one passport, dual nationality or citizenship isn't forbidden by Hong Kong's laws - which is the whole reason why so many Hong Kongers have this BNO passport in the first place. So a migrant from Hong Kong could go work in the UK for a few years, whilst taking advantage of his/her BNO passport to bypass the more stringent requirements associated with getting a work permit in the UK. Is this enough to incur the wrath of the Beijing government, by simply exploiting a loop hole to gain employment in the UK? That's unlikely, given the number of Hong Kongers who do work abroad - even within China, there are loads of Chinese nationals who do go work abroad; seeking employment outside 'the motherland' isn't seen as such a massive betrayal. There's no sense of "oh how dare you go work in London instead of contributing to your motherland, the country of your birth!" In fact, this freedom of movement is something that is a fundamental right both in Hong Kong and in China - so if you have the ability to find yourself a well paid job abroad, then the Beijing government really doesn't care where you go or what you do, as long as you do not act against the interest of the Beijing government. Indeed, they have bigger fish to fry: namely those who are politically active and the Chinese Communist Party can be ruthless in dealing with anyone seen as an enemy - but by definition, that means people who are directly trying to hurt the interests of the Chinese government, such as by exposing the atrocious human rights abuses going on in Xinjiang against the Uighur people or the rampant corruption within the Chinese Communist Party. Simply using this loophole to work in Britain is definitely not enough to put you on the radar of the Beijing government, as long as you remain apolitical then really, the Beijing government doesn't care what job(s) you do, where you go or what country you settle in, so Lhatoo's warning is really just a big fat lie.

Conclusion: what is the point of Lhatoo's piece then? What is he trying to achieve? 

SCMP are fiercely proud of their Hong Konger identity, this is evident from a lot of the cultural pieces presented by Luisa Tam about the Cantonese language and other aspects of life in Hong Kong. Hong Kong has long had a difficult relationship with both London and Beijing - after all, they had gone from being a British colony to a state that's effectively controlled by Beijing, whilst they're probably wishing that they could achieve full independence like Singapore but that was never going to happen given how the Chinese governments is so keen to flex their muscles over Hong Kong. So they had gone from being London's mistress to Beijing's bitch, whilst really disliking both. The best explanation perhaps is that they are merely trying to appear patriotic by discouraging Hong Kongers from leaving their country and seek green pastures in the UK - the message is, "don't go, please stay in Hong Kong and help us fight for a better future for Hong Kong." If that was the intended message, then they had certainly misfired with this video because that was not the message I got - instead, it was just Lhatoo telling us what a horrible nasty country Britain was and not to move there because things are just shitty here. It was so one-sided that it even came across as somewhat racist or at least woefully ignorant, written by someone who doesn't have a good understanding of the situation here in the UK. Journalists can misfire and in this case, Lhatoo's badly written script was a muddled mess of miscommunication. If he was trying to inspire a pro-Hong Kong feeling of patriotism, then he should have talked about Hong Kong's unique cultural identity rather than simply insult Britain - let me address the elephant in the room: Lhatoo is not Chinese, he is in fact Indian. He speaks Hindi, not Cantonese. He may have been a long-term resident of Hong Kong but he was born in India. He wouldn't have been the right person on the SCMP team to deliver the message about Hong Kong's cultural identity - thus it would have made more sense for someone else on the SCMP to do this piece, but Lhatoo was not the man for the job. 

So there you go, that's it from me on this issue - what do you think? Are you a fan of SCMP? Why is Lhatoo refusing to even touch upon the issue of personal responsibility when it comes to one's quality of life? Why does Lhatoo seem to hate Britain so much - is it simply racism or is the relationship between Hong Kong and Britain too complex to simply dismiss as one tainted with racism? If you live in Hong Kong, are you tempted by this offer to move to the UK and what are your concerns about starting a new life in the UK? Why do you think the Chinese minority in the UK are the model minority who earn so much more than every other ethnic group? Or do you think Lhatoo has a valid point, have I been too harsh on him? Would you want to move to the UK in 2021? So do leave a comment below, many thanks for reading. 

40 comments:

  1. Thank you for giving us a more balanced view of the issue. I had watched the video and had felt it does not provide the full story.

    I am interested to hear your stand on free speech.Personally, I feel it's important to be sensitive, especially on religion and race issues. There are certain lines that shouldn't be crossed, i.e insulting of religion figures, especially in multiracial countries like France and Singapore.

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    2. Hi Jon, if you're asking me about the current situation in France which started with the beheading of the teacher, then I am of the opinion that the problem arose because of these poorly assimilated Muslim migrants. If they were unhappy with what happened, they should learn to voice their opinions in the media and express themselves with words, rather than reacting by, "I am not happy with this person - I shall cut off his head because he insulted my religion. That will teach people not to mess with Muslims." Nowhere in Islam is this kind of knee jerk reaction ever justified, Islam is a complex religion and the problem is that some people simply don't have the intellectual abilities to defend their religion - they are not educated enough, not articulate or eloquent enough to persuade people to respect their religion more. So that's when they resort to violence like terrorist acts and beheading people.

      I grew up with parents who beat the crap out of me whenever I dared to defy them or challenge them - as a child, they controlled my actions with the threat of pain and physical punishment. I feared them as a child but there was no respect, only fear. They didn't know how to win my love and respect through reason, they only knew how to make me fear them by violently beating me up. Right now, they are wondering why I have no love or respect for them as an adult when they brought me up - how am I supposed to react to violence with love? You can't scare someone into respecting you - you can only use the power of reasoning to win someone over with a cogent, powerful, intellectual argument. My parents were not intellectual, they were not educated and that's why they resorted to using fear.

      Thus I feel that in French society, it is 100% perfectly accepted to discuss the Charlie Hebdo drawings about the prophet Mohammed, the line was NOT crossed and if you think that what the teacher Samuel Paty did was wrong - then I have to vehemently disagree with you. The beheading was wrong - if Muslims want to live in France, then they have to assimilate and learn how to express their opinions with words, rather than just behead those they disagree with. We should never condone those who try to rule by fear - we always need to encourage people to win the respect of others through the power of words.

      I'm speaking as someone who has had way too much fear in my terrible childhood that I suffered at the hands of my very abusive parents. Never give in to fear.

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    3. In fact I have written on the original Charlie Hebdo attack back in 2015: https://limpehft.blogspot.com/2015/01/je-suis-charlie.html So if you are a long time reader of my blog, then you should know I am 100% on the side of the French president and I believe that the French way of handling the matter is 100% and that I have to totally, vehemently disagree with you that certain lines shouldn't be crossed. Look - I don't want to pick a fight with you over this; you're entitled to your opinion and that's fine, but if you want me to say that I agree with you and no, absolutely not, I absolutely do not agree with you. People need to have the freedom of speech to express their opinions and Muslims need to learn that murder is not just a crime under French law, but ask any reasonable Muslim person if they think such murders are justified and they will tell you that they condemn such terrible acts of terrorism. You sound very Singaporean in your stance on the issue - well, I've lived in France, I speak French fluently and so I actually understand the French POV on this issue and I definitely agree with them on this.

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    4. Thanks for your comments LIFT. Of course I am 100% disagreeing on the violence. But why hurt other people feelings making fun of such sensitive issues? I am all for keeping an open mind and having an open discussion on religion. But personally, I will not want to cross the line of making fun of other's belief or race.

      I am not asking you to agree with me, I sincerely want to understand why the French think it is ok to make fun of religion. Yes, you are right that my mindset is very Singaporean. The importance of racial harmony is being drilled to me since I was very young. We were often reminded of the racial riot in Singapore in the 1960s where many people were killed and to keep that peace, we need to be respectful of one another.

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    5. Hi Jon. Thanks for your reply and please allow me to make the following points:

      1. We live in a very different culture in Europe - there are protests in Thailand right now asking for the reform on the monarchy and for the first time ever in Thailand, people in Thailand are openly mocking the current king. This would have been unthinkable under the old king who passed away in 2016 but the current one is a spoilt brat who spends most of his time in Germany, he hasn't earned the respect of the Thai people and thus the Thais are looking at countries like the UK for example, where we have freedom of speech and we make fun of our royal family all the time - oh yeah, it's completely legal and normal for comedians to mock the royal family here. This shows us that respect is earned, not demanded. The old Thai king earned the respect of the Thai people by being a good king, whilst his son has only inspired protests on the streets.

      2, Thus if respect is what one wants, one has to earn it. If a religion wants respect from the society, then earning it is a pretty difficult option but if that's what you want, then you have to find a way to earn it. Going out and killing people who disrespect your religion will only make people hate your religion more - the same way the new Thai king didn't earn the respect of the people by getting the troops to arrest more protesters in the streets of Bangkok, no they are only going to hate the king even more.

      3. Thus I believe that as a citizen, I have a fundamental right whether or not I choose to offer this respect, be it to a politician or individual (like my prime minister, my Queen, the new Thai King etc) or to a religion or even to my parents. Like you my friend, it was drilled into my head since I was a kid that I must respect my parents no matter what they do - but all they ever did was beat me up when I was a child. I remember once I did something quite innocent, I took an apple from the fridge and I saw that the apple had a leaf on it still attached, since it was unexpected, I showed that to my father and he beat me up for that. I still can't understand even as an adult why showing him that leaf on the apple was enough to make him so angry to warrant a beating and it wasn't just a slap across the face, it was one of those prolonged, savage attacks over something as bizarre as showing him a leaf. So yes, I feared my father back then but did he win my respect? No he didn't. I look back at that incident of that leaf and can now categorically say that no decent parent would have reacted like that.

      I'm not looking to 'punish' my father over how he acted back in those days, that's a long time ago - but I'm exercising my right to tell my side of the story and state clearly and publicly that he was a bad father who did not win my respect because of his actions. Other Singaporeans may believe that I should offer my unconditional respect regardless of how he behaved, well I beg to differ. Perhaps that's me having more western values and all I am doing right now is exercising that choice by stating my stance on the issue rather than conforming to what Singaporeans expect me to do, you would probably expect me to remain silent on my father's abusive behaviour and simply offer unconditional respect now he is old, right? See - I'm merely saying I won't do that. He hasn't earned my respect.

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    7. 4. And that's exactly what the French are doing - if the religion of Islam hasn't earned the respect of a French person, then s/he is free to say "I don't respect Islam because ABC and XYZ". And then Muslims are able to respond by saying, "you're wrong on those points and I want to challenge you." It is through having a dialogue that you then have a breakthrough and understanding - that's when you can have real respect for the other party. Being told to be respectful to each other and never talk about religion isn't real respect - that's merely you being in a climate of fear, you're fearing the consequences of speaking out rather than offering real respect for a religion that you're not even allowed to talk about.

      5. In European cultures, we believe that true understanding can only happen through conversations that are conducted when we have freedom of speech - not when people are silenced through fear, which is what is happening in Singapore. There are laws of course against hate speech in Europe: you are not supposed to say anything homophobic, racist, misogynistic, sexist, etc in public and people have gotten into trouble for that. But you can talk about the issue of religion and criticize it and if you have a cogent argument, then you can voice your opinion about religion and feel safe that you have the right to have that discourse - that was exactly what the teacher Samuel Paty was doing in his classroom. It is the Muslims in France who need to learn that they should respond with words, not violence. You seem to be confused over fear and respect - you think you're being respectful but you're really acting out of fear. I actually know that difference: I remember hiding in the storeroom so afraid of my father when he was extremely angry, knowing he would beat the crap out of me the moment he found me. I really feared him but did I ever respect him then and do I respect him now? Clearly not. Fear and respect are not the same thing. I believe that fear is no substitute for respect and if religions want people to respect them, then a free and open dialogue about religion is a necessary precondition. All you have an uneasy truce in Singapore based entirely on fear.

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    8. 6. So I think in your culture, you have this 'unconditional' respect reserved for figures in authority, parents, religion, government, teachers etc - whereas in the West, this is not the case and people in that category are expected to earn that respect rather than just receive it in spite of their bad/immoral behaviour. At what stage does this enforced unconditional respect turn into fear? In the West, we may pay a price for choosing real respect over fear but I have actively embraced my European values and firmly rejected my Asian upbringing to the point where I say, this is a price worth paying to live in a society where we know the difference between fear and respect (and I must say Jon, that's the huge difference).

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    9. @LIFT your story about your father brought back suppressed memories about my father belting me and burning me on the leg (scars still there) for being "naughty". I remember I was quite mischievous when younger and broke some stuff but that was just because I was bored as hell. There was nothing to do at home, no toys and my father locked up the tv remote when he went out. So what do you expect a young kid to do once home from school? Stare at walls? Facebook and internet were not a thing then. Consoles games were already present but my dad didn't buy any of those as it would "affect my grades". Jokes on him. I didn't have any distractions from studies yet I still did very badly for my PSLE.

      In contrast my younger brother had free reign of the TV, a brand new Playstation all to himself. And all other privileges or basic childhood wants that my elder (estranged) brother and I did not get to enjoy. Double standards and all that. But I can earn my own money and buy all the consoles I want (I own the PS1-4, Wii, 2x 3DS, Gamecube, Nintendo Switch, water-cooled gaming PC, etc). Didn't need to depend on my parents for anything. I'm a self-made man who succeeded in spite of all the non-existent parenting skills of my parents; lest my father think that by abusing me and depriving me of entertainment while I was young made me what I am today.

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    10. Thank you for your detailed explanation. We are able to have this open and peaceful discussion but unfortunately there is a small percentage of people who will use violence against people whom insulted/disagree them.





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    11. Well yes Jon, there are people who will react like adults and have a civilized conversation with those who disagree with them and then there are those who will use violence because they do not have the ability to express themselves. They are angry, they have no way of elucidating their anger with words so they go round cutting heads off. So the question I have for you is this: what do we do about people like that? Do we allow them to set the rules of our society and do we seek to appease them? Or do we try to control them and make them behave accordingly?

      Just for comparison, my friend Yuri has a young daughter who is about just under 2 years old and a dog - both the baby girl and the dog cannot express themselves with words so the baby will scream/cry when she cannot get something and the dog will bark/bite. Does Yuri a) allow the baby to behave like a savage and the dog to run around barking all day, biting anyone and everyone? or b) Teach his daughter how to learn to behave in a reasonable way and train his dog to behave? The answer is b) - his daughter is reasonably well behaved for a child her age and his dog is a pleasure to be around. So even little things like getting the dog not to poo/pee in the house, Yuri has managed to toilet train the dog to get the dog to comply.

      If we are capable of training babies and dogs, why can't we train adult humans to behave like decent, normal human beings who will behave in a logical, reasonable, law-abiding manner then? It can't be that hard. Yuri isn't some specially trained expert - he is just a father and a dog owner, yet he has a really great job with his daughter and dog.

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    12. Hey I would treat my dog better than my parents. Dogs are loyal and don't hold grudges. They are also not as intelligent as humans so if it does something wrong you can immediately discount malice and deduce ignorance as the cause.

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    13. LIFT, to your Q on how to deal with those people whom cannot express themselves except with violence, I prefer the SG system where we are being sensitive to race/religion. Yes, I am placing tolerance/peace above freedom of speech. Although I disagree on the French, I respect what they are fighting for.

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    14. Hi Jon, I beg to differ - I think that your system in Singapore is based on fear: you're allowing these people to threaten you and control you with the threat of violence, "follow our rules or we shall cut your heads off regardless of what your law may say on murder." I don't call that being "sensitive" to race/religion - I call that censorship based on fear. You may see yourself as being 'sensitive' but I think that's the wrong word, I think you're being forced to censor yourself out of fear and that's not the same as being sensitive. Being sensitive is based on respect and true respect can only be establish through a proper dialogue, an open and honest discussion about religion.

      I am speaking as someone who has lived in the middle East, have loads of Muslim friends and have visited loads of mosques over the years, even spoken with senior clerics in the mosques before. When I lived in Singapore, I had never set foot in a mosque before as I was taught that it was only for Muslims, I would not be welcome there as a non-Muslim. I see myself as someone who is willing and open to have a real open & honest dialogue with Muslims to facilitate better understanding between non-Muslims and Muslims - to improve community relations. Whereas the Singaporean approach to this is so different - it is just censorship and keeping your distance from Muslims. It's the way Muslims and non-Muslims don't even eat together in Singapore - the Halal and non-Halal kitchens are separated. I have sat down with my Muslim friends in the Middle East and in North Africa and eaten with them, I speak French and some Arabic and Turkish which allows me to make a lot more friends with Muslims in that part of the world.

      Don't get me wrong - I'm someone who has spent a lot of time in Muslim majority countries and probably know more about Islam than 99.99999% of non-Muslim Singaporeans. I'm attacking the Singaporean system, not Islam. I think Singaporeans like you don't understand the difference between fear and respect, you're so used to being censored by your government and you accept that your system is good - whereas I've spent time in countries like France and I think their system is far better than what you have in Singapore.

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    15. I think the Singaporean system treats you like a dumb idiotic child who knows nothing, you're not trusted to make the right judgement when it comes to opening your mouth, so the governments censors you or expects you to censor yourself. Whereas with someone like myself who has spent time in the Middle East, speaks some Arabic, has loads of Muslim friends and has a good understanding of Islam, I can have an informed discussion about Islam with my Muslim friends. I can say what I like about their religion and they're fine with it because it is based on knowledge, not ignorance. What pisses them off is when ignorant non-Muslims say totally false crap about their religion because they know nothing about Islam. Yeah, people who know nothing about Islam should shut the hell up, because the moment they open their mouth, they only expose how ignorant they are and cause offence. But if you're knowledgeable about the religion, then by all means, you can express and opinion and Muslims don't expect it to be "be complimentary or I will react with great offence." I've loads of Muslims friends who have criticized aspects of their religion before and they feel comfortable doing that in front of me because they know I have a good enough understanding of the situation to have an intelligent conversation with them about it.

      I am simply pro-dialogue and anti-censorship: dialogue improves understanding, whereas the Singaporean way is to censor everything and they then try to fool you by calling it 'being sensitive'? Oh yeah right, I expect you to censor yourself and then reward you by calling that behaviour 'being sensitive'? That's why I think the Singaporean system is bullshit. Total bullshit. And I can have that conversation about how shit the Singaporean system is with you because I trust you're going to react intelligently instead of with violence.

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    16. The SG system is like blinkers on a horse. The government censor and suppress all discussions on controversial issues to pretend it doesn't exist. Then hope it goes away. What is more likely to happen is it would blow up like the little India riots from years ago. Wouldn't want to be be here when it all goes down.

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  2. This is why I really hate patriotism. From the video it looks like this Lhatoo person is really talking down to Hong Kongers saying they will likely "fail" in the UK, while glossing over the fact that HK has poor people too.

    But let's look at the economics of if 1 million Hong Kongers leave. Would it make life better for the people who stayed? This reminds me of the hypothesis that migration from the countryside is good for the country as it would fulfill jobs in the city, while raising the wages of farmers as there is now less competition in farming. Maybe poor hong kongers will face less competition for jobs and be able to land one to live decently. On the other hand, migration could also cause a brain drain, which is what happened to Eastern Europe during the Cold War (still happening now too). I think Lhatoo is more concerned about the latter, selfish as it may be.

    If anyone had told me I shouldn't have left Indonesia to be a scientist, I would've pointed that my country is very sexist and would have never given me a job anyway.

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    1. Oh Amanda, you're totally right. Ultimately, whether the migrant will succeed or not in the UK will depend pretty much on the migrant himself/herself - not any of those factors that Lhatoo talked about. Those who are highly educated and skilled will thrive in the UK (or any other country for that matter) whilst those who are uneducated and unskilled are screwed in Hong Kong anyway, so by that token, they have little to lose by trying their luck in the UK (even if their chances of succeeding are low). SCMP is probably trying to appeal to HKers not to leave the mother land, but trying to send this message out by simply saying awful things about the UK instead of discussing issues of HK's unique cultural identity is just plain wrong - this video was badly scripted and it misfired on so many levels.

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    2. Patriotism is nothing more than a means of emigration control to keep taxpayers in (as opposed to "immigration control" of keeping people out). I think SCMP is worried HK will go through what the Eastern Bloc went through when the Iron Curtain went down, people leaving in droves(its a domino effect that is hard to stop). They couldn't care less about the prosperity of individual citizens. Maybe they'd like to kick out the poor people, but not the middle class or wealthy who pay taxes.

      Actually when you think of it, Hong Kong is going through what the Eastern Bloc went through after WW2. A sudden loss of freedoms means nobody wants to live there anymore. My dad once talked to a Polish engineer who during the Cold War saw his coworkers gunned down during a strike at the mine they worked at. Due to the trauma, he illegally immigrated to Italy to work as a dishwasher at a Polish restaurant. Only when the Berlin wall fell did he apply for Asylum in Canada(still didn't want to go back to Poland).

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    3. Ah what will happen in HK will be similar to Singapore - loads of people will leave, leading to a brain drain and it is a serious problem given that it will be the brightest and the most highly skilled who will leave, knowing that they can get a good job in another country and you're left with those who are not the best and the brightest in HK. Hence the solution would be to allow far more skilled migrants from China to move to HK to take up these skilled jobs so there will be no gaps in the labour market, that will lead to a dilution of HK's identity - so Mandarin will replace Cantonese and English as the local language in a few decades and migrants from the mainland will outnumber locals. I remember trying to take a bus in HK and I struggled on in Cantonese to speak to the bus driver and when she didn't understand me, I thought my Cantonese was so awful - it turned out she's from China and so she asked me if I spoke Mandarin, so thankfully for me, my Mandarin is much better than my Cantonese so I got the information I needed about which bus I needed to take. But that's exactly what's happening in both HK and Singapore, migrant workers from China are coming to take local jobs (like driving the buses) and that trend is only going to increase over time.

      If the SCMP is trying to dissuade HKers from leaving, then they needed to come up with a more persuasive argument then, "if you go to UK, you will fail and starve, then come crawling back to HK, you'll be sorry." They are ignoring the fact that the richest ethnic group in the UK is the Chinese by a very, very long way - we're the richest ethnic group here, so much richer than white people and because of the links to HK, at least a quarter of these Chinese people in the UK have their roots in HK (either born in HK or born to parents from HK). So the evidence actually shows that migrants from HK have done extremely well in the UK - something that Lhatoo conveniently ignores as well.

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    4. Actually the Chinese are also the richest group in the US and Canada too haha. Its a combination of only skilled Chinese migrants being allowed in, and cultural factors. In Texas and California I see a lot of math tuition centers, but only Asian kids use them.

      Yeah, there is no need for aggression to get people to stay, actually such scorn will push people to leave. So how would you rewrite Lhatoo's script to get HKers to stay and fight for independence? In my opinion it is quite difficult to get people to stay out of true patriotism, which is love for their country instead of just hate for other countries. Thats probably why they're using the economic argument, its not perfect but people are motivated by money quite a lot.

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    5. Good question Amanda, I would have appealed to their sentimental side, about what it means to be from Hong Kong, to have grown up in Hong Kong speaking Cantonese, to feel at home when you walk through the streets of Hong Kong, that sense of connection to the place you grew up in. By that token, Lhatoo is an immigrant from India who doesn't even speak Cantonese - he is NOT the right person to deliver such a message, hence the only one he can deliver is to put the UK down and it feels like Lhatoo has a personal axe to grind with the UK.

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    6. Is that why the SG gov imports a lot of Chinese people? I've always found it strange they prefer only one country (or 2, including Malaysia) to import people from. Like Australia takes in a lot of skilled economic migrants every year but with no particular preference of country, hence more skilled Asians and Africans are moving there instead of Europeans. But when I look around the professors at universities in SG, there are just as many mainland Chinese or Malaysians who took up Singapore citizenship than there are local born Singaporeans. It seems the brightest Singaporean scientists tend to leave (unless they have a 6 year bond with the A*STAR scholarship haha), and only Malaysians and Chinese immigrate to Singapore because its an increase in their standard of living. Hmm, come to think of it I see why the Singapore government attaches a bond to everything, they really don't want skilled people to leave.

      Oh and what's the deal with the SG white paper calling for an additional 2 million Singaporeans? The MRT is already crowded as it is, and housing prices are still very expensive. That looks like it would cause a lot more poverty than there already is.

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    7. Hmm thats true... Everyone has a sentimental connection to their childhood, especially the neighborhood they grew up, the TV shows they watched, and the food they ate. It would be hard to find the same culture overseas. The guy I really liked went to Raffles Institution and Raffles JC. He really likes to follow the Democratic party in the US and hates Brexit, but at the same time he is a hardcore PAP supporter which I really don't understand. But I think its just because he went to RI and RJ(PAP factory), and had a great childhood in SG so doesn't mind returning to it and living there.

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    8. I hate PAP supporters who emigrate overseas and think they have a right to comment on local politics. If PAP is so fantastic just stay in SG and get screwed by their policies. It is just like ex-pm GCT who called SG who emigrate quitters when all his children are working overseas. The label i would use to describe these people is hypocrite. If the shoe fits...

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    9. I do have that sentimental connection to my home town and I do visit Singapore sometimes (and I always meet up with Choaniki when in Singapore). But I don't see this as a mutually exclusive emotion - I can have my sentimental connection to Singapore and still appreciate other parts of the world I live in. I can still make new friends in other parts of the world with people from other countries and form new connections with them.

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    10. As for 2 million more Singaporeans, that's a relentless pursuit of growing GDP: in raw numbers, yeah more Singaporeans = more output = more GDP for the country. Remember that wealth is never equally shared, so if there is competition for a limited commodity like space (for housing), then rich people will have the wealth to outbid poor people for that same limited amount of space so rich people will still live well and poor people will end up with smaller and smaller housing units, this is often masked by the fact that those same units will be shared by bigger families - we have seen this in Hong Kong for example, whereby you have 3 generations under one roof (in a tiny flat) because the kids grow up, get married but simply cannot afford to move out because they are so poor. So the people who wrote that white paper really don't care what the hell happens to the poor people who are stuck in Singapore and see their standard of living fall year on year as the population keeps growing - the PAP's attitude has always been to ignore the poor because Singaporean society allows them to think like that. Singaporeans are taught that a welfare state creates an underclass that will simply expect the government to support them, so it is good to punish poor people with starvation and suffering to motivate them to do better.

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    11. I actually know people who were educated/worked in HK for a bit before moving to SG. They said they were getting older and wanted to own their own home instead of renting. Housing prices are crazy in HK.

      Btw I've never seen any other country's politicians behave that way with regards to immigration and GDP. That's as if tomorrow Denmark, which has a similar population to SG (5.8 mil vs. 5.7 mil), suddenly declared they'll take in 2 million more new Danes. They could never do that, many people would complain they couldn't build new houses fast enough to prevent significant overcrowding/homelessness. Even in Germany where they have 80 mil people, many people were upset in 2015 when Merkel allowed 1 mil refugees in to counter their shrinking workforce problem.

      Btw I'm surprised for a rich country, the PAP does not care about reducing poverty. There are snobby politicians in the UK/US, but they cannot make the same comments as PAP politicians do to attack poor people in public. Their plan mostly seems to be "import more smart Chinese immigrants to outnumber local poor people so most people won't notice the poor even exist." It sounds almost Dystopian to me which was why I left. I may pay higher taxes in the US but at least we don't have elderly cardboard collectors here (most of the welfare money goes to seniors).

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    12. The culture is different in Singapore - for years, we have been brainwashed that any form of welfare would render people lazy, remove the incentive to work and improve ourselves, so the government are being a strict but loving parent by refusing to help poor people and shaming them instead, just like how a strict Asian parent would punish his/her child if the child does badly in an exam.Yes the punishment may hurt in the short run but in the long run, this discipline would make the child work harder in order to achieve much better results. I certainly don't buy that bullshit but that's the way people in Singapore think - thus that's why PAP gets away with no reducing poverty because society believes that it is wrong to allow these poor people to get any help.

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    13. Hmm... but it seems the PAP doesn't mind giving generous "welfare" to useless scientists who work for A*STAR haha. Seriously A*STAR is filled with lazy people who had good grades in school that the PAP thinks "deserves" to take it easy. Yup its all bullshit, "Socialism for the Rich, Capitalism for the Poor." I just think how morally corrupt does someone have to be to peddle such two-faced lies? But this problem is not unique to Singapore, the Republicans in the US and the Conservatives in the UK also do the same (going against school meals during Covid, jesus...). The US may have Trump but we still had free school meals during the summer.

      But instead of looking at the bad... how can Singapore transition to a country that is fueled by passion instead of fueled by fear of failure? We can see that fear does not help at all to incentivize top performance (e.g lazy A*STAR scientists who have good grades but 0 patents and 0 founded companies). But someone like Joseph Schooling was looked down upon for wanting to be a pro athlete, but persisted anyway because it was his passion and not just something society expects him to do. How do we change to a culture in SG and Asia in general that encourages more Joseph Schoolings instead of useless iron rice bowl chasing A*STAR scientists?

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    14. @Amanda good thing you got out fast. I would advise you not to come back. Alvin Tan of Alvivi infamy is doing very well in the US of A (better than that stupid pedophile who I won't name).

      In fact I got out of a lucrative career and in IT working for an MNC and transitioned to healthcare and suffered 3 years in school and another 3 years working off a bond just so I can get the global passport to fuck off from SG. I hate the country (and my parents) so much I would derail my life to gtfo of this hellhole. The recent election results and the rise of sociopaths like Jo Teo further strengthen my resolve to move.

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    15. Jo Teo really scares me, how can she be minister of manpower when she made that comment about not needing lots of space to have kids? The US isn't perfect and has problems, but we at least have a democratic system in place where people can make change(if they want it). In Singapore its a dictatorship so change happens very slowly. I was doing well in academia but I really didn't like the attitude that Singaporean scientists had where they say "just outsource new patents/factories to China, while we just import their products and sell them as an Asian sales hub." The foreign scientists hated this too and left in droves after a few years. LOL they even import scientific expertise from China instead of doing their own. A*STAR should change their name to "Agency for Sales of Chinese Technology" (ASOCT) hahaha.

      Good for you Choaniki. So whats the last hurdle you need to clear to immigrate somewhere else? (when Corona is over). Are you applying for Canada's skilled migrant route where you score points and can get a PR before finding a job? One of my friends said Canada is thinking of letting more immigrants in for their economy to recover.

      https://www.cicnews.com/2020/10/canada-to-release-2021-2023-immigration-levels-plan-1016133.html#gs.kcn5x6

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    16. With Choaniki's skills, he can migrate to any country he wants.

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    17. @Amanda, yes I am considering Canada. Although I have sufficient points now with 2 tertiary qualifications and an in demand job I want to increase my score by learning French and biding my time until covid blows over or the vaccine is released.

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    18. During the pandemic, all medical-related personnel with some kind of medical training are drafted in to do Covid-19 related work - even my friend who is normally a lab scientist has been roped in to do testing work because we just can't do enough testing fast enough to keep up with this virus. The question is, are you going to be happy working in a Covid-ward in Canada now, or would you rather wait till things stabilize in 2021 after we have a vaccine?

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    19. Yeah I heard Quebec implemented a fast track system for asylum applicants to get a PR if they worked in healthcare during the Covid 19 pandemic: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/2020/08/pathway-to-permanent-residency-recognizes-exceptional-service-of-asylum-claimants-on-front-lines-of-covid-19-pandemic.html

      I think its a little exploitative to import immigrants to do dangerous jobs locals dont want to do, but Canada is offering permanent residency which gives immigrants almost the same rights as a citizen. This is more humane than Singapore which creates temporary work visas for undesirable jobs like maid, construction worker, or even nurses, with no path to citizenship and very limited rights. The average Canadian would be horrified by how Sg treats certain migrants.

      But I think @Choaniki can wait and check out Europe/Australia too. Australia also has a healthcare worker shortage. The Quebec healthcare express pathway is more for low skilled migrants with little education, and even allows failed asylum claimants to earn a PR (thats very generous). If the Canadian border wasnt closed, some illegal immigrants in the US would gladly come over and work in Canadian care homes to earn themselves a PR.

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    20. Well you need to be fluent in French if you wanna work in Quebec, they are very strict about banning English and creating a French-only work environment - there was the whole story about pasta-gate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastagate they have the language police patrolling the state to remove English from the public domain and an Italian restaurant got into trouble for using Italian words like pasta on the menu. This is incredible - I have worked in Paris where the locals are pretty happy to speak to me in English not because I don't speak French, but because they are keen to find someone to practice their English with and improve their English, but not Quebec! It is even more French than France, so the question is whether or not Choaniki will be happy adapting to a French speaking work environment or if he would be better off and happier anywhere else in Canada which would be primarily English speaking?

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  3. Lots of people have left HK for Taiwan and other countries post 1997 and more still will leave after the new public security law took effect.

    I can only say that unless you are a CCP sympathiser it is better for you to leave China and Chinese controlled HK.

    Just look at Xinjiang now and image what would happen once China is allowed free reign once the 50 years of SAR 1 country 2 systems have expired.

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    1. Mind you, some people are not political at all, so they don't take an interest in things like that - it's not that they support the CCP per se, it's that they just don't care. It makes it a lot easier for them to put up with life in Hong Kong now. But if you have an opinion about anything from freedom of speech to human rights, then it's time to get the hell out of Hong Kong.

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