Hi there guys, recently I got into a conversation with a friend whom we shall call Rhys (not his real name) and he is one of my Welsh-speaking friends who lives in London. I got to know him through the Welsh speaking community so he never really knew had happened to his employment situation until fairly recently. I know he had changed jobs a few times but recently, he has fallen on hard times and has been forced to take on quite a poorly paid working class job just to make ends meet in an expensive city like London - he cannot remain unemployed whilst looking for an ideal job, he needs to earn some money in the meantime. When I heard when he was doing, I was shocked as he is overqualified for that kind of work and that's a theme that I covered in my last post, when graduates are forced into working class jobs as they struggle to find a good job that would match their qualifications. Just for context, Rhys is in his late 40s like me - he is not young. So in today's post, I am going to share with you some of the questions that Rhys asked me during our conversation, given that he asked me some questions which I found interesting to answer, as it covered issues that I had not thought about in a while. I realize that this is quite similar to another post relating to a friend 'Vera' but that was written quite a while ago and Rhys' situation is a rather different - allow me to explain using some of the questions he asked me.
Q: How did you get into investment banking?
A: Well, way back in my 20s, I had been tinkering around the edges of the financial services industry for a while having worked for an events organizer that did some events for the banking industry. It was through that job that I got to know a hedge fund manager who needed a fluent French speaker on his team as his hedge fund was domiciled in Luxembourg and there was a lot of paperwork in French that needed to be done - he didn't speak any French so it was a happy coincidence that I had the right language skills and industry-specific knowledge that allowed me to get my first proper job in finance. I was in the right place at the right time, however, I did consider several job offers at that same time for similar roles - so if I had not gone with that company, I would have done the same thing with another. Oh yeah, I wasn't going to stay with that events company - it was just a stepping stone for me. In hindsight, I was glad I got out when I did because events were a big thing back then. This was way before the days of social media and you couldn't just go on websites like Linkedin to start meeting other professionals in your industry so people really wanted to go to events like that to network. Events like exhibitions and conferences still exist today but they no longer have the kind of importance as they did 20 years ago. Besides, I also saw many other people who used that route to get their foot in the door when it came to getting a job within financial services. You need to have useful skills that the employers need for them to wanna hire you.
Q: Wait so it was your languages? Nothing to do with your degree?
A: Oh please, it was entirely to do with my languages. I did the most fucking useless degree in the world, I studied geography at UCL for all the wrong reasons. Oh my employers may have been aware that I was a graduate but that was not the reason why they hired me. None of my employers even asked to see a copy of my degree - degrees are so overrated and they just weren't interested, it wasn't important. Look, if I knew just how vital my language skills would've been to my career, I would've done something like a degree in Spanish and French, given that those were the two languages I used the most in my career. But I did some modules in French at university and my Spanish is completely self-taught, but still, they proved to be very useful in my career. Whereas you could argue that the process of doing a degree was what was most important, that I was in an environment where I had to perform independent research and present my findings - that this process was they key skill I took away from university and whether I studied geography, French, music, psychology or art was a moot point. I know I can take any topic thrown at me and figure it out on my own.
A: Well yes and no - sure there's the graduate recruitment programmes where banks hire the best graduates from the top universities, but note that only accounts for a small percentage of the people who enter the financial services industry, it's not like a flight from Tokyo to London, you have only one chance to board that flight before it takes off at Tokyo Narita airport and if you turn up too late, you have missed your flight. Instead, think about it as a train that is traveling from Glasgow to London, the ultimate destination of that train is London Euston station but the trains does make several stops along the way between Glasgow and London, so not all passengers on that train who arrive at London Euston started their journey in Glasgow - they may have boarded that train somewhere along the way like in Carlisle or Manchester but they still end up in the same destination. So some people have spent their entire career in banking whereas others have done something else in a different industry where they have accumulated some useful, transferable skills and knowledge that have enabled them to get good jobs in the financial services industry. I also have met people who have found their first job in banking in their 50s after having done something quite different before but that's another story for another day.
Q: Can I help my friend Rhys find a job in investment banking then?
A: Ooh Rhys, probably not. I am really sorry mate, but no - it would be really hard.
Q: Why would it be so hard for Rhys to find a position in your industry then?
A: Let me share some background information about Rhys with you: he used to work in sales for a high end luxury clothing company, with the cheapest item starting at about US$3,000 and I thought he did quite well there but then the pandemic hit. People started working from home and stopped spending money on fancy clothes, so the demand for that kind of high end designer luxury clothing just dried up as a result of the pandemic. I thought Rhys would've been able to adapt his sales skills to a different product and went to sell something else, but he didn't. Instead he went to do a job which didn't involve any kind of sales at all, where he just was paid a flat rate for his time in the service industry (and it is poorly paid, IMHO). Working in high end retail is a great stepping stone for quite a number of jobs, I know of this woman for example who started as a sales assistant in a high end luxury boutique in New York selling expensive jewellery to rich women. She then moved from that to an art gallery where she convinced buyers that it was worth spending an insane amount of money on a painting, from there she became an art dealer who managed to shift an insane amount of high end art related investments and today, she runs her own company dealing in high end investments and prides herself as an art expert. Not bad for the woman who started off selling earrings and bracelets. She kept moving up the food chain but to be shock, Rhys took a step down the food chain and anyone who does that is effectively giving up on himself. I can't help him if he doesn't want to help himself. He was in a good position to move onto better things in the past, but not anymore. He is a good friend but I don't think I can help him. I just don't think it is possible given the number of questions raised by this rather bizarre move he took after leaving that last job - so why did Rhys take a step in the wrong direction?
Q: Would you recommend studying languages to get a job in banking then?
A: Yes and no, I'm never ever going to give you a straight answer, am I? Firstly, if you are indeed a polyglot who finds it easy to learn many languages, then it makes complete sense to cash in on your skills in a high paying job - I remember when I was in Dubai last November, I got chatting to a multilingual manager at the hotel I was staying at, she spoke seven languages but I did wonder why she was wasting all that talent in a nice hotel, when she was clearly very intelligent and could have achieved so much in the corporate environment. Polyglots can make themselves useful in environments like tourist attractions, hotels and airports but not all jobs for polyglots are well paid! Thus using your language skills is one way to stand out when trying to get a job in the banking industry, but note that you must be reasonably fluent in the language before you can use it in this context. So one of the key roles that I play is that of an account manager, so I maintain that good relationship with the client in order to encourage them to keep investing with us. Thus being able to communicate with the client in their mother tongues gives me a massive advantage, but it's not like these people don't speak English - most of them actually do speak English fluently, but speaking their language simply gives me the opportunity to connect with them at a different level. On top of that, I have to be technically astute when it comes to the technical aspects of the investment process because that is equally important, hence simply having the language skills is not enough to do my job; it is that unique combination of languages and technical knowledge that is what I bring to the table. Without all that technical knowledge of the complex investment management process, I might be stuck doing a poorly paid job, doing customer service in a hotel or airport - serving customers in different languages.
Q: Would there be any degree in particular that could lead to a good job in investment banking?
A: Not really. Allow me to speak more generally about how companies strive to hire the very best candidates: the employer wants to attract the smartest, brightest, most intelligent talent to their companies - essentially, we're looking for people with super high IQ along with great social skills. Now note that you can't learn either of those at a university - your IQ is determined at birth, you get what you're given, you work with what you have. As for social skills, yes those could be nurtured but it is something we develop as we are growing up and there simply isn't a course or module at university to teach you social skills. Financial institutions certainly don't expect you to hit the ground running on your first day at work - rather, they will have their own training process which will prepare you for the role they want you to perform. It is complete bullshit to imagine that a degree in economics or finance will prepare you for this and this is because the whole point about working at that level is that you would be regularly given tasks that you know nothing about, that you had no prior knowledge of and you would then be expected to figure it all out very quickly by learning everything you need to know very quickly and efficiently. This is of course a far cry from a working class job say in a supermarket, where the shop assistant is doing the same task over and over again, week after week, month after month and is never expected to make any difficult decisions or solve any problems. In fact the default response for someone in that position would be, "let me get my manager." But in sharp contrast, in financial services, we want to get the most intelligent talents who will figure stuff out for themselves without having spent three or four years at university getting a degree to teach them how to do it - no, we want people who are so naturally brilliant that they can do all that without a degree! Thus if you have a degree from Oxford, I'll hire you as it proves that you were smart enough to gain a place there as they only accept the best and brightest students. There are also many other ways you can prove that you are super intelligent, have great problem solving skills and good social skills: it doesn't have to come in the form of a degree from a prestigious university.
Q: I've heard that degrees give young people a foundation to learn more about the banking industry, as it will function as a means to help young people cope with this big transition from student life to the working world.
A: No. Not at all. That's complete bullshit. This is a misconception that you can teach someone how to be intelligent, that it is a step by step process that can be taught by a teacher in a classroom. At a very basic level, young kids at primary school have got to be taught the basics of course but once we become adults, we have to learn to acquire the useful information we need very independently. The nature of education does evolve very radically from what we experience at primary school level to what we do at university - hence tertiary education is not simply an extension of primary education where we are simply fed more information about the subject matter in a similar manner. Let me be blunt here: if you're just too stupid to figure out how to solve complex problems on your own, no university course on earth is going to fix that. You just can't fix or cure stupidity, so you can't educate a stupid man until he somehow becomes intelligent. So this whole argument about it being a 'foundation' is a flawed one by that token. If you're super smart then you will not need that 'foundation' at all but if you're really dumb then no, that degree simply isn't going to fix that problem. That flawed argument is peddled by those in the education industry, trying to get students to spend more money on useless courses.
Q: Is there an easier option to step into this industry?
A: Actually, yes there it because there are a lot of different roles within the industry. I was asked at the gym last night what was the difference between what I did and what an accountant did - we certainly use a lot of accountants as part of the process but we play very different roles. Say we have a project that we need to raise finance for - I am the one who finds the investor(s) for the project and convince them that this is a great investment opportunity. Only when the client has agreed to invest, the money that is to be invested needs to be moved from A to B using the appropriate structures - that's when the accountants get involved. Without my efforts to convince the investors to participate in the project, they would have no work and so my role in the process is far more important, consequently I earn a lot more than your average accountant. So allow me to use a simple analogy from the hunter-gatherer cavemen society: back in those days, they didn't have any processed sugar readily available so it was hard to get hold of sweet treats. That might come in the form of ripe fruits but don't forget, they did not have fruit stores in the local markets selling you loads of nice fruit either. So honey was very highly prized then, as the hunter-gatherers faced huge risks in trying to harvest the wild honey from the hives full of angry bees which would defend the hive! These hunter gatherers didn't have any of the modern equipment that beekeepers today use, so they had to resort to using rudimentary tactics like using smoke to get to the honey. Once the wild honey was harvested, it was brought back to the home where typically, the women would then use it to prepare food with that tasty honey. So whilst I'm sure the women who prepare the meal with the honey have some skills, the real heroes in that context were the brave hunter gatherers who had braved the angry bees to harvest that honey. By that token, the accountants in banking are like the women who stayed in the kitchen, waiting for someone else to bring the honey home. No disrespect to accountants, but that's why there's a huge difference to the nature of our jobs.
Q: But what if I don't mind waiting in the kitchen for the wild honey to arrive?
A: And that's fine, as a lot of people do end up in more boring, lower paid jobs where they wait for other people to come up with brilliant ideas or solve difficult problems, then they just come in afterwards and provide some kind of support. You would be paid a lot less if you're not the person adding the most amount of value to the process, but you also don't have to work as hard - as illustrated in the wild honey example above. But this whole original conversation started because Rhys wanted to know how he could get a super well-paid job without realizing that such positions meant being able to add or create the most value in the process. What Rhys is currently doing today adds very little value to the product that he is handling, that's why he is paid very little. So by all means, wait in the kitchen for others to harvest the wild honey, but you're going to earn very little like that. That is exactly the situation that Rhys is in right now, he's earning too little and so he is wondering what it would take to join the people climbing up those cliffs to harvest that incredibly valuable wild honey. This is a trade off and you must therefore consider what you want out of life: do you want to be the beloved hero who climbs up the side of a steep cliff to harvest the sweetest wild honey for your tribe or do you want to be the one who is simply waiting for someone else to bring home that wild honey whilst not getting as much respect, money and recognition for the role that you play? One thing is clear: you cannot stay in the kitchen whilst expecting to be treated like the hero who brings home the wild honey that everyone loves. Either you have to do something truly extraordinary to be the hero, or you accept a quiet life of a low-paid worker where you're not expected to add that much value in what you do. But no you cannot have your cake and eat it: you can't ask for a very simple job and expect to be treated like a hero.
Q: But Rhys just wants to be given the chance to prove himself but he was never given that chance.
A: I'm sorry but the harsh reality is that there are very few jobs for those at the top of the food chain who are tasked with heroic tasks like harvesting the wild honey whilst the vast majority of people are further down the food chain doing more mundane tasks and paid a lot less. Hence someone like Rhys is unlikely to even be given the chance to prove himself given that he hasn't fought his way to the front of the queue by proving himself already by being excellent in other areas of his life. He's been so average in terms of his education and career so far, whilst we are friends because we have connected through our common language (Welsh), I look at what he's achieved so far and I just can't see someone like him even being given a chance in the first place to prove himself. I'm sorry but average people like Rhys do not get invited on wild honey harvesting missions. If Rhys wanted to change gears and get a better career after the pandemic, he had a lot of time to try to get his act together but he did nothing - thus he is paying a high price for that now. The amount of time he spent in his current job really works against him as it raises too many questions like, why did you do choose to do that terrible job? Have you just given up on life? What went wrong? Sorry, but the damage has been done.
Okay guys so that's it from me on this topic. What do you think? Is it really too late for Rhys to get a better paid job? Is my diagnosis of his situation way too pessimistic? What do you think someone like Rhys can do to find a better job? Or is he already too old now in his late 40s to try to make that change? Or is age really nothing to do with it, is it more about his mindset and his skills? Why do you think Rhys is regretting his decision to 'take an easier job' for less money? How do other people in working class jobs deal with that issue? Please leave a comment below and many thanks for reading.
Well as they say "there's no such thing as a free lunch." Although some lucky undergrads at Oxbridge might be handed an internship at Goldman Sachs or Barclays while still a teenager, they probably have to work long hours to prove themselves since there's a long line of people waiting outside to take their place if they wash out. It's easy to want a better paid job, it's not easy to put in the work and sacrifices to contribute enough to deserve one. What has Rhys done to distinguish himself? Or is he just sick of poverty and dreaming of a better life?
ReplyDeleteHi Amanda, I think Rhys was sick and tired of the very difficult job he had for the high end tailoring/designer service company he worked for. Sure each package he sold was very expensive and if the celebrity was going to attend an award ceremony where they would be photographed by the paparazzi then they would spend £30,000 on an outfit if they knew that would be on the cover of magazines. But how many people needed to spend that kind of money on a regular basis? Even if you were to go to rich businessmen (like me) and say, Alex you're a man with great taste, how about a new suit? I'll be like, do you know how many suits I already have? Do I really need another? It's a tough market to operate in. So Rhys just gave up in the pandemic (perfect excuse) and took a job in a service industry role where he goes into work, does an 8-hour shift and then get paid a flat fee for the 'services' he performs in that role which basically involves servicing customers at an entertainment venue. No sales, no commission, flat fee, very low pay, very working class job. I can imagine the manager yelling, "Rhys someone has thrown up in the toilet downstairs, I want you to go clean it up." Yup, that's the kind of work he has to put up with. He's fallen from having quite a difficult but lucrative job to an easy but very poorly paid job - now he's looking at me earning good money and wondering where the hell it all went so terribly wrong?
DeleteTo be fair, in one of your QnA points you mentioned you previously worked for an events company before pivoting to finance by meeting the right people through that job and working your social skills magic. I imagine that Rhys must've met some very impressive clients in his previous job selling expensive runway-quality fashion. Only very wealthy and successful people can afford those kind of clothes in the first place. He probably could've done what you did in trying to get one of his clients to like him enough to offer him a job doing sales for them instead. But he didn't, and here we are. He might not have to think much at his new job, but he's quite replaceable with far less access to other opportunities. By the way, what is Rhys' family background? Did he grow up working class?
DeleteBy the way, I just came back from Microsoft's Boston branch. I was originally there to help participate in an experiment run by a PhD intern where they needed test subjects. But I talked about my prior research and my current job while we were chilling out, and the intern offered to give me a tour of their ivy league university and lab(not in Boston) if I'm ever in town. I did not expect that, the intern also gave us a tour of the building too which was nice. Social skills for the win! Anyway the intern was telling me they were working 12 hour days and weekends the past 6 weeks because some aspects of their project were very new to him. This is the kind of person that Rhys is competing against for good jobs, and this person makes 5 figures/month only as an intern. Ivy league educated, lots of technical experience, and much more hardworking than him. I see what you mean by "there is no angle" for you to help Rhys.
Rhys certainly had a path to a better job as you said, he could've done what I did - impress a client and say, "give me a job, you've seen what I have done for you, you're a happy customer, now imagine me making all of your customers just as happy." It isn't rocket science, but the pandemic happened - still, Rhys could've easily gotten in touch with some of his old clients and say, I'm not trying to sell you anything today, but I need your help please, can I come work for you? I am not sure who were his customers (they were undoubtedly rich) but the question is then, could they have employed him? Did he have the right kind of skills to join their team or would they say, "I adore Rhys, he's such a nice guy but I simply am not in a position to employ him now as I run a firm of architects and I need architects only, not someone to do high end sales of luxury products - Rhys is just too far removed from my industry." Yes Rhys grew up very working class in rural North Wales, I have visited his home town and it's pretty (look it up, Ynys Mon) but really really cut off from civilization. That's why he came to London in the first place, in search of the bright lights. But at his new job, he works at an entertainment venue where the staff do very menial work like, "carry these boxes for the client to room 2C", "the client upstairs wants to order some coffee, go get them whatever drinks they want." No he doesn't have to use his brain, he just responds to instructions, but it is terribly poorly paid as a result.
DeleteTo me, it seems that although in theory Rhys could've called one of his former clients, he doesn't look like someone who would do a lot of research on the potential new industry. Social skills are a big deal but you need some technical skills too. If he had a hypothetical client who ran an architecture firm that was hiring architects, and somehow he secretly had a passion for architecture, then he'd also have to study part time to be an architect to get the job. The friend I'm helping who is the "American Rhys" in a similar situation, it's so hard for me to get her to do her research on the skill requirements of higher paying jobs. Even if I can get her in a room with someone who is hiring and paying well, like say myself, she's not in the mood to learn any new technical skills. Not even if it would change her life. One can't just say "but I want to do what I love!" Or use the excuse "it would be hell to work 8 hours a day at something you don't love, even for higher pay." Sounds like a very sour grapes attitude and an excuse not to work hard. But also to me it's like she's very used to working class jobs where the barrier to entry is very low. The concept of having to learn everyday, on your own, without people telling you what to do in white collar jobs is very alien. After visiting MIT and Microsoft, even I have a lot of shit to read up on to catch myself up to the state of the art.
DeleteYes it wasn't going to be an easy transition and undoubtedly, it would involve Rhys having to adapt his sales skills to a different kind of product - would that have been impossible? No, it would mean climbing a steep learning curve but with some will power that can be done. But I now look at his situation and just shake my head. I don't know how I can help him.
DeleteYeah maybe it just can't be helped. From my perspective it looks so simple, just invest in studying a new thing in exchange for more money. Someone like Rhys already has the connections, they just need the skills and know-how. But the people who have that mindset probably already grew up with money or were at least middle class. The working class tend to think they are destined for working class jobs because everyone in their immediate family is also working class, who don't expect more from them. And when people do expect more, they throw up their hands and say "getting rich is too hard." Not that there aren't lazy rich kids, but they have family money to pay for expenses or expect to inherit the family home when they're older. A lazy poor kid has no such safety net.
DeleteBtw does Rhys have any dependents?
DeleteAlso, I think the example of Rhys shows how escaping poverty is a very complex issue, and that even staying middle class is difficult if you can't adapt. If one is used to working class jobs where you don't have to think much, then adaptability is an afterthought. My dad used to say "one can't be a one trick pony for a 50 year career because progress inevitably renders everything obsolete." Also right now I'm in the same boat as the Microsoft intern having to read on my weekends to get something up and running in 3 weeks. If I fail, I could be fired. I don't have Rhys' job where he knows what to do day in day out with very low chance of failure such that his (low) income is guaranteed. But then again I'm paid a lot more and if I succeed I could put a down payment on a house with my bonus money.
You know, I didn't think about the impact of Rhys' family background that might have had an impact on him. It did seem that initially, at least for a couple of years, he did achieve some level of social mobility though it was shaky. If he managed to do well in a month, then he was taking home a lot of commissions. But he could also go through a dry spell with no sales and that would be difficult. He would visit the client, listen to what they wanted, then come back with a bag full of fabrics for the client to chose from and discuss options and prices, before taking the instructions back to the team of designers who would then put everything together. Being a good looking gay man, his clients thought Rhys fitted the stereotype of the ultra stylish gay man who understood style. But once he has been in that world, it shocked me that he was willing to take a step back to a working class job - I can understand if it's temporary, but come on, the pandemic is but a distant memory now. Is it his upbringing or his family background that is prompting him to do this?
DeleteAs a gay man, Rhys doesn't have dependents. His elderly parents live a quiet life back in North Wales and he doesn't have any children, he does have a boyfriend. Talk about adapting, that's exactly what Choaniki is having to do right now in his situation and I know he's trying his hardest but it's not been easy at all for him. At least I know he is keen to prove that he will succeed in finance one way or another now that he has announced to the world he is doing this; you gotta admire him for that drive - which has been missing in the case of Rhys.
DeleteHmm maybe it's no so much growing up working class as it is growing up Asian working class vs Western working class. I think there is a difference between Choaniki, an Asian man, and Rhys, a Western man. If Choaniki has a dry spell, he'll look for side hustles to fill the gap. If Rhys has a dry spell, it doesn't seem he did much. I notice in the West when a working class person makes some money, they're quite grateful for it and will enjoy the good times while they last. But the West has more work life balance than Asia, so the work ethic might be different. Also Asians tend to think and talk about money more I feel. It's a very taboo topic in the west unless you're very rich and among other rich people. My friend Yvonne, the American Rhys completely shuts off thinking about work when 5pm hits and goes out drinking. I think it's terrible because she should spend at least one day of the week planning her next career steps or learning new skills. But she's like "I need to live life to fullest so I don't want to waste any time. I don't even save for retirement" But the lack of long term planning hits her very hard when she gets an unexpected rent increase or her car breaks down.
DeleteOh Rhys is childless. At least he doesn't have much expenses aside from his own, and he has someone to share a flat with to keep costs low. What does his boyfriend do?
Rhys' boyfriend has a working class job, they are not rich.
DeleteI am not the expert, I know someone who is, Eric Sim who is super working class, and this is what his boss says: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7097006314983211008
ReplyDeleteIf you ask me if it is ever too late to get on the plane: no.
If you ask me if it is easy: hell no.
Which is why most people don't try getting onto the plane. Everyone thought I was crazy. Except @LIFT.
By the way Alex, I was thinking maybe Rhys didn't go about asking you for a job the right way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpret his pitch to you as "I'm dirt poor and could really use more money. You make a lot of money, can you help me get a better paid job in your industry?" That is not a good pitch at all. When I had the interview for my current role, I didn't mention my advisor was under investigation for abuse and I was looking to escape my PhD program. Instead I told the interviewer I just attended a hackathon at MIT and about the projects I'm working on. My pitch was more "here is what I can offer you" rather than "I'm so desperate for what you can offer me, an escape from misery." But this is social skills 101 in learning to pitch yourself the right way, think about what the other side wants, not what you want. I think Rhys could've pitched himself better had he did something on the side related to finance, like offering to work for a small business for free, because then he'd have an experience to talk about rather than just "I'm desperate." Nobody paid me or told me to attend the hackathon and be sleep deprived for 2 days coding, but I went anyway and it helped me land a job outside my field of study.
ReplyDelete@Amanda, when I first approached @LIFT it wasn't to ask for a job. It was more related to my previous job exploitation.
DeleteLIFT basically told me to GTFO out of SG because all companies in SG are crap (as observed by both his sisters working super long hours).
Which is where I started asking him how and he said he would introduce me to someone who might be able to help. But I first had to complete a test.
Hi Amanda, whilst all that you said is totally true, I think Rhys knows me well enough to let down his guard and not have to pitch me his services or skills when he asked me for help. I responded sympathetically and could have gone further to try to get him more help, but at that stage, I felt like he was just after information about how he could deal with the situation rather than simply beg for a job. Good opportunities are hard to come by and to be fair to Rhys, there's a huge amount of nepotism going on in the world of banking. I have told you this story before, I know of this big boss who hired the guy his daughter was going to marry just to ensure that his son-in-law will have a successful career. He's not a complete loser, this son-in-law, but would he be in his position today if he wasn't already engaged to the daughter of the big boss? Of course not. That's simply nepotism in your face - it happens, so when I see that, I think, why shouldn't I go out of my way to help my friend Rhys then, if this happens all the time in the world I live in? In fact, it makes me even more motivated to wanna help Rhys.
DeleteAs for Choaniki's situation, I'm afraid as it was his first job in finance, he had to start at the bottom and as well established companies wouldn't consider a candidate in his 40s with zero experience in finance. I called in some favours and got him an interview with a young company run by a young guy in his late 20s; I put 3 of my friends up for jobs at this company, two of them succeeded and Choaniki was one of them. So it wasn't even like I could guarantee him a job at that stage, as one out of the three friends I had put forward was actually rejected at that stage. But fundamentally, I think there's a mismatch between what Choaniki wants to do with his career, where his skills lies and what this company wanted him to do - therein lies the problem.
At least Choaniki has healthcare and IT to fall back on, whereas in the case of Rhys, he was doing high end sales. I suppose he could always go back to that but sales is only gonna work out if you have a good product to sell. They say a good workman never blames his tools but that's bullshit in the world of sales. You simply can't sell an inferior product, whereas if you have a good product, it makes your job so much easier.
DeleteCertain products have the brand name that allows it to sell itself. E.g. Rolex watches. People to go into a Rolex dealers already know that they want a Rolex watch. It doesn't take much effort to sell to them.
DeleteThen there is a Chinese watch brand called Sea Gull. People who want a cheap watch might buy this brand. But then they would probably want to go around to different watch dealers to find the place where it is sold the cheapest.
This presents 2 problems:
1) It is not exclusive to one dealer. People don't need to buy from you.
2) Watch connoisseurs will never buy a Sea Gull over a Rolex no matter how hard you market it.
I have checked with a friend who worked in retail - he informs me that if you are flogging a product like a Rolex which is very well known, you get little or no commission because the products are selling themselves, you don't even need to pitch the customer when they walk into the shop. They are really just looking at the price and they know what they want, so you just need to pay sales assistants to do some level of customer service without having to pay them any commission as they don't need to sell anything. However, if you're selling a product that is completely unknown and you need to convince the buyers to part with their money on that product, that's when you need to offer commission to get the best salespeople to work their magic. In short, there's no free lunch in life - it would be wrong to think, if only I worked in a Rolex shop, I'd be so rich and it'll be an easy job. No, you'll be paid very little as a sales assistant and earn very little or no commission as the owners of Rolex know they don't need to pay their sales assistants any commission in that context.
DeleteFollowing on with that point, I asked my friend then, what's the point in working for a luxury brand like Rolex if you don't stand to earn any commission or if they have a very poor commission structure? Why don't you go work for a company where you can at least have the chance to boost your earnings via a generous commission structure? The answer was really simple: commissions are only offered for products that are hard to sell. That could be like a brand new product trying to break into the market that no one has ever heard of (hence nobody is actively shopping for this new thing that they don't even know about), a new brand trying to enter an already crowded market (where there's a lot of brand loyalty - how are you gonna overcome that as a salesperson). That's a tough sell, it's not an easy job at all and it takes a combination of technical knowledge, social skills and a good network of contacts to be able to sell. And imagine if Sea Gull watches open a brand new boutique in London and you worked there as a salesperson, how are you going to convince someone walking in the door for the first time to spend money on that watch on the spot? It's ridiculously hard and my friend has been in that position before where he was given a new product that no one has heard of, told he could earn massive commissions if he sold it but no one managed to sell a new brand in a crowded market with a lot of customer loyalty. Please note, we're talking luxury retail here. Working in a place like a Rolex shop is a decent option for people who simply don't have excellent sales skills - they show up everyday for work, the working conditions are okay, they have regular breaks, the pay isn't great but at least they don't have to worry about their sales figures and it's a simple, predictable life that many working class people are more than happy to settle for. If you look around you in society, there are a lot of people who settle for working class jobs of that nature.
DeleteOh and my friend even said, if you work for Rolex, you know there will be there 30 years from now as they're a big brand. If you work for an unknown brand, they may not be there six months from now if it doesn't work out. So for working class people who are after that kind of stability knowing that the employer will always have a job for them (even if it is a lowly paid job), they will gladly be the security guard at the Rolex shop even if it pays peanuts.
DeleteI'd assume all luxury brands have low to no commissions. But I see their retail assistant all dressed in suits and ties. I bet they have to be of a certain educational qualification (not uneducated ah bengs/lians) to be able to interact with well-heeled customers. How are you going to get these people to work for you then, if you pay a low basic salary with no commission?
DeleteThere is often a dress code when it comes to working in these high end luxury boutiques but there will be a manager who will make sure that there is an inspection with every single employee before operations begin. If there is a newbie who is somewhat clueless, it is then the manager's responsibility to explain the dress code as part of the training process - this is not rocket science at the end of the day. Many jobs do require employees to adhere to a dress code and this is just part and parcel of being in the working world. As for how educated they are, I think you overestimate it because the first rule of retail is that you do NOT bother the customer and make the customer feel uncomfortable with intrusive questions. I actually once made a complaint in a high end retail shop in London because the customer service assistant asked me what he thought was an innocent question to establish rapport. He asked, where are you from? I then demanded to speak to the manager. The manager apologized at once - the staff are instructed to be helpful and friendly, but they were not given clear instructions about what topics to avoid, often these things are left up to the individual to make a judgment call on. So generally, sales staff might make comments about the weather to stay on neutral ground, "I know it has been raining all morning, but don't worry, I've seen the weather forecast, it will stop at lunchtime and we will have a lovely afternoon later." You do not ever speak to a customer as if they're your friend and try to extract information with questions like "where are you from". When I'm doing my high end shopping, I might want information about the product but I certainly don't want to start chatting with the sales assistant about anything personal - I don't even know that person, why would I wanna talk to them in the first place? But this is retail we're talking about, now if you're selling a higher value item like real estate or a luxury car then okay, you might be able to get a bit more personal to try to match the buyer to the right product based on their personal circumstances but in retail, you do not get personal. That's why I made that complaint. I felt he had crossed a line that he should have stayed the hell away from.
DeletePart 2 coming up below.
I don't need the person who serves me to be articulate or have a degree, my shopping experience does not depend on that. As long as they are well trained to be efficient and polite without ever asking any personal questions, that's good enough for me. The job is NOT rocket science, it is a working class retail job (that's why they're paid peanuts) and thus you're mistaken in imagining that I want any kind of interaction with the shop assistants. If I wanna talk, I have my friends to speak to. There's this mad, sad, pathetic old lady who goes to the local supermarket where I live and she just hangs out there - sometimes talking to the staff. They can't kick her out as she is a customer and sometimes she does buy something but otherwise, she's just old, pathetic and so lonely that talking to the staff at the supermarket is probably the only social interaction she can get as she lives alone - yeah only that mad old lady wants to talk to retail staff. People like me actually would be a lot happier with minimal social interaction with retail staff for another reason: I look down on them. I think they're stupid, uneducated and they're socially inferior to me, so why the hell would I even want to talk to them and waste my breath talking to someone like that? Oh please. I wouldn't go as far as to be rude to them just because I think they're beneath me, but I would never want to engage them in any kind of social interaction when spending money at the store. Just get me what I want, provide service with a smile with the least number of words, I will say thank you and leave the store a happy customer and that's it. After all, I am thinking, would I ever be friends with someone who works in retail? No, we have nothing in common. OK, never say, never I do have a few friends who work in retail and other working class jobs like Rhys. Therefore these high end luxury retail shops don't need graduates, they can train uneducated, unskilled staff to dress up nicely with the help of a manager, smile a lot and say as little as possible and that's often good enough knowing that the rich people are snobs who look down on such working class retail staff
DeleteHmm Alex I'm also like you where I don't want retail staff asking me what I'm looking for as if they're my personal stylist. I just want to browse in silence. Of course the staff isn't my friend, they just want me to buy more stuff.
DeleteY'know, my sister is in a working class job despite having a degree. She's also trying to sign up for more working class side hustles to make ends meet and buy herself nice things. But she still gets to live in a house worth almost a million dollars, which is in her name too. So I don't know if she technically counts as "poor", maybe "house poor", but to tax auditors her net worth is higher than mine. Anyway, me and my brother have tried to convince her to get a proper white collar career, but she can't be bothered to. This was a huge source of disagreement between her and my dad when he was still alive, because my dad grew up poor but became a rich man, so his daughter going back to a working class job (by choice too!) would be the opposite of social mobility. When I look at my brother, he's in a middle class career, but he's not a hustler so he works max 10 hours a week and makes in the low six figures, but he's content with that. He goes camping a lot with his friends. Then I look at myself, I'm in a management position in a high risk high reward job, and I make the most and have the most education. There are weekends(like this one) where I spend it just reading some obscure math textbook in the hopes I'll be inspired to find my next good idea. It's not so much the money, but I wanted to be on the cutting edge of scientific research and industry. I suppose us 3 kids have very diverging career paths despite starting out the same, but we're all happy with our choices even if my dad was only happy with me since my career path is closest to his. And I think if my sister didn't have the house in her name (she's my mom's favorite), maybe she would be more stressed out and try to look for a better job.
Anyway, my brother is trying to get my sister into a decent middle class job which doesn't require much thinking, but pays more than minimum wage. The thing is, I think many people would prefer this type of job rather than to be rich. Just treating the job as a source of income, while minimizing the amount of time and effort spent on it, and being content with a minimum standard of living rather than complete luxury. The problem is, society seems to only have mostly working class jobs, e.g bus driver, or high class jobs, e.g Goldman Sachs/Microsoft intern. Where are the "in-between" jobs that my brother is in? Trades I suppose? Like roofer or plumber.
@LIFT, I was once walking around MBS Shoppes and entered an Alexander McQueen retail outlet. One of the female staff there asked quite a couple of questions that, looking back, was seriously none of her business. She asked me how I knew of the brand and also if I liked the design of one of the (clearly) female purse.
DeleteI just gave some non-committal answers since I didn't want to be rude. I wasn't sure about the purpose of my visit to that shop in the first place. But I am also not stupid enough to buy gaudy luxury brands (I can afford them but I'm also cheap).
I sometimes act like a Japanese tourist just so the staff would stfu and not bother me. But I am usually well groomed and to a well trained person they could probably tell that I have money to spend. The main giveaway is because my eyeglasses cost 2k as they are custom lenses with pure titanium frame from Lindbergh (Danish luxury brand).
Maybe I should start wearing torn and I'll fitted clothing like my dad (he is not poor just super cheap and super working class). Then probably the retail staff will avoid me since I am disgusting and clearly poor.
Okay first on the issue of shop assistants, I must admit the one time I really enjoyed talking to a shop assistant was when I was in Jermyn St and the guy who served me was really quite hot. Like he was my type, so I really engaged with him and allowed him to upsell me. I don't know if he realized that, he wasn't flirting with me, he was too professional to do that but his good looks definitely worked in his favour. I can imagine that if Choaniki walked into a luxury store where the staff could earn commission, one of the ladies would try to use her charm on him just to convince him to spend more money. Most of the time, if I was approached by a woman or a man I didn't fancy, I'd be like leave me alone, I just want to browse in peace and I'd let you know if I need anything. But if it was a hot guy approaching me, I'd be happy to let him pitch me. It's not even a sexual thing - it's not like I was gonna ask that guy for his phone number, I was shallow enough to think, okay if I spend some money here and he gets some commission out of the sale, then that's great as he gave me such a great shopping experience. Did this guy realize that I am gay? No idea. Perhaps, I don't know, I don't mind, as I was clearly happy to spend my money there. As for the awkward question by the lady at Alexander McQueen, it didn't matter what she asked you really. She was just testing the water to see if you liked her. She could have easily done something quite bland like talk about the weather but if you were attracted to her, then you would have been a lot more happy to talk to her and if she had picked up on that, then it was her opportunity to use her beauty and charm to persuade you to buy something there - this is nothing short of a honey trap of course, which I am immune to. I get this a LOT when I travel in Europe, I pass through a lot of airport duty free shopping areas where they hire Chinese ladies who spot older Chinese men (like me) and start chatting to me in Mandarin, to try to persuade me to buy stuff there. When they do that, I start speaking to them in Welsh to make sure they can't communicate with me and so they'd have to leave me alone.
DeleteAs for Amanda's sister, well there is a price to be paid for settling for a working class job. Your Big Mac Index is low - so your job isn't mentally challenging, but you are paid so little that you have to work such long hours to make ends meet. So the price you pay for that is that you simply don't have the time to do the stuff you enjoy - never mind not having the money to do what you wanna do. Let's take my adult gymnastics class for example. I have rich gymnasts who think that the class is good quality for money whereas the poorer gymnasts struggle to access the class for two reasons: firstly, they work long hours and trying to go to do an evening gymnastics class after having worked all day, no they're just too tired to do that. Secondly, they don't earn much so they find it very expensive. Am I totally in love with what I do? No, I am not if I may be totally honest. But how else am I going to work these few hours and earn this much money? So I am just going to take that money and spend it on activities that I do enjoy.
Ok I am definitely not attracted to that female staff at Alexander McQueen. She looked like a lesbian with short hair and dressed in a man's suit (company policy maybe). But I am also shallow and would have attempted to engage her if she was eye candy or said something interesting (which she wasn't and didn't).
DeleteI probably wouldn't spend money to impress her however since I am cheap and also don't like to waste money.
I spend money on things I find value on (ref eyeglasses) or my Dell laptop which costs more than 4k (maxed out specs).
And I guess unlike the unsophisticated PRCs who spend money to showoff to others (面子), I don't like to waste money to showoff. But I prefer mixing with interesting people who share similar values, even if they are rich or poor.
Lol if it was a hot guy I suppose I'd be tempted to buy stuff just to not disappoint a handsome shop assistant. The kind of "shop assistant" I hate the most is a car salesman. Because sometimes I just wanna look at new cars online, but they ask for a phone number which the car salesman would directly call. I get that cars are expensive and they are due a fat commission if I were to commit, and 99 failed calls is worth 1 successful sale because it nets so much money, but it's still very annoying. If I want a car, I'll drive to the showroom myself, a phone call is not going to change my mind.
DeleteYup Alex, the price to pay is exactly that, long hours to pay the bills. It's not just not being able to have things, but sometimes you can only have things is you spend time to look for used versions on the secondhand marketplace, or go through the trouble of selling your old things to buy new ones. As someone who makes more than enough to buy new things, I throw out a lot of perfectly fine old things just because I don't have the time to find a secondhand buyer, negotiate a price, and set a date to meet for the exchange, even if it would save me money. Instead it would make me more money to just focus on work and earn myself a bigger bonus.
Oh I feel you about sports classes and other fun activities. Actually I just came back from fencing class, and its a similar situation where there are richer fencers who think the class is very good value for the money and can afford $300 of new gear. The pricing is $12.50 per 2 hour lesson, or $6.25 an hour! But it's 3x a week, so $150/month with no cheaper plans. But there's poorer fencers who might have to defer payments some months because they've hit a rough patch, and buy used gear for a fifth of the price. Also, I recently just drove a guy to class who needed a ride, and he told me he was in a car crash a month ago but doesn't have the money to repair his car, which resulted in him losing his (working class) job because he couldn't get to work. If my car was out of commission, I'd have the money to repair it and pay for Ubers to go fencing until it was fixed. Also I work remotely, so a damaged car doesn't affect my ability to make money. Yup I don't love my job all the time either, but if it means being resilient to accidents and getting to afford sport lessons, it's not a bad tradeoff. If my sister ever had a problem with her car, she definitely would find it hard to repair it or keep her in-person job. But unlike my friend who comes from a working class family, there's me and my brother there to help our sister.
@Amanda, we have just established that all 3 of us (and probably most of human kind) are susceptible to thirst traps aka the halo effect.
DeleteAnd I don't blame any of us. Sex sells and it is illogical but based on more primitive mating instincts.
Well Amanda, I'm a lot more practical than that - it's not to impress or please the handsome shop assistant, it's more the knowledge that he can earn some commission if I did spend money there and the more I spent, the more he would earn. This is really no different than you leaving a bigger tip at a restaurant if you really liked your waiter - it's the same thought process going on there. I shared with Choaniki the Instagram of a Taiwanese pretty boy insurance agent, his content online is terrible (it's cheesy, badly edited and unsophisticated) but he clearly has a lot of followers and is raking it in. He must be doing something right there and I asked Choaniki to see what lessons he could learn from that guy.
DeleteWell I have started to follow and like his content. My story would be that I am looking to move to Taiwan and would like to understand the Taiwanese investment scene abit more. All 100% true btw.
DeleteYeah true, I do leave a bigger tip if I really liked my waiter. Especially if they got me a table very quickly, remembered my favorite dish, and refilled my water often. Social media can be very weird sometimes, especially when it's the "unprofessional" looking content which people find popular. People say the same thing about OnlyFans, the most average looking people blow up very quickly compared to the model looking types.
Deletehttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/16/magazine/e-pimps-onlyfans.html
Sometimes people just prefer someone who is average and relates to them rather than an unattainable standard.
@Amanda, I wonder have you heard about vtubers before. These "people" are usually from JP and they don't reveal faces even. But they stream and shout-out names of people who then give them super likes (money).
DeleteTheir only talent is giving attention to lonely (horny) simps who lack female attention.
Hey Choaniki. That sounds like what some twitch streamers do, where they just talk to their fans all day in exchange for money (but they show their faces). But I don't think that kind of person in that occupation is completely talentless. Porn is free, so why do people pay for twitch streamers, vtubers, or OnlyFans? I think it's because they want someone to listen to their problems and make them feel important, and that requires social skills. Not everyone can fake listen to a story told by someone about their day and make it believable that they care, but these twitch streamers, vtubers, and OnlyFans creators make it seem effortless. Even in real life, someone who is very beautiful that can't make someone else feel important will not get any dates.
DeleteSince you chanced upon a topic of my interest, allow me to respond Amanda, the boom of Onlyfans is because of the somewhat interactive nature of the content. You can speak directly to the content creator and make requests (at the right price and within reason). It may cost you more with popular content creators but you get customized content in return for your money. Allow me to use an analogy: when you go to McDonald's - sure you can make some requests like "no pickles" or "no mayonnaise" when you order a burger but you can't say, "in Japan, they do a shrimp burger that is fantastic, I'd like to have that please." They'd just say we don't do that burger, you'd have to go to Japan for that, please order something from our menu here. Whereas with an Onlyfans type of relationship, you can place your order for a special shrimp burger in advance, the content creator will gladly go get the ingredients to make you that burger you want no matter how unusual request may be. Some people are very willing to pay a lot to get exactly what they want. Now you have the big porn companies out there which are like McDonald's - they pump out a lot of content for mass consumption, but you don't get to customize it at all. For a subscription, you get to access what they have already made. But for Onlyfans, it's that thrill often of being able to access something quite niche, often custom made just for you and that's often how those content creators thrive in this market - their USP is being able to give their fans exactly what they want by taking requests.
Delete@Amanda, this is part of the attention economy. You pay someone for their attention. You can even pay A-list celebrities to do shout-out or read off a script.
DeleteHaha Alex you make OnlyFans sound like a bespoke tailor compared to a mass produced brand like H&M or SheIn. I suppose if people have very specific clothing tastes they would also have specific porn tastes. Another thing I heard is that the porn industry highly exploits their actors ever since porn went live on the internet. It's a bit similar to how Spotify underpays their music artists to keep costs to the end user low, and internet piracy has made selling albums pay too little to support artists except for major ones. Music artists make most of their money on tour instead. As a result some people think OnlyFans is a good way to support artists fairly like how people pay for Patreon subscriptions to their favorite YouTubers. What I find kinda funny is all the straight guys making an OnlyFans and using Grindr to promote it. Like they swipe right on gay guys they have zero interest in sleeping with only to message them a link to their OnlyFans. That sounds like it would hurt the self esteem of the guy on the receiving end of such a message.
DeleteHi Amanda, there's a word from Japanese - 'otaku' which describes a certain kind of extreme nerd in Japanese culture. These are nerdy geeks, usually obsessed with technology and all their social interactions are online with other otakus and they lack the social skills to experience love or sex in the real world. However, given how much porn they consume, it's not like they don't know about sex - they just realize that they'll never be able to experience it. For them, it's like watching a Youtube video of cliff diving - they take pleasure in watching the cliff diver jump off a 30 meter platform into the water below but they'll never ever get the courage to jump off that same platform and perform that dive. They are quite content participating as a spectator but Onlyfans and other similar websites offer them an enhanced experience by getting the performer's attention and the possibility of getting bespoke content. I see it as a marketplace where both buyers and sellers are very happy doing business this way and the explosion of Onlyfans signals that there's a huge demand for this kind of service.
DeleteFor many of these Otakus, paying for the attention of a performer is as close to a relationship as they are ever gonna get. Sad but true, it fulfils a need.
DeleteOnlyFans satisfies a market gap. They wouldn't exist if there wasn't a huge demand for these kind of bespoke adult services.
DeleteMaybe @Amanda is too young to realise it, but these services have existed since time immemorial. They are called strip clubs and brothels (amongst other things). Whatever you want to do behind closed doors is up to two consenting adults.
It is just not as well publicised as OF. But I'm sure this is not news to @LIFT.
There is still a difference though - it takes some courage to walk into a strip club and/or a brothel as it does involve interacting with another human being. Some of us think it is no big deal and hoards of tourists pour into the red light district of Amsterdam on a regular basis as it is a must see in the city even if you're just curious (it is so famous after all). When you're dealing with Otakus though, they have so little social skills that they would be terrified of walking into a strip club or a brothel and the fear of interacting with another human being far outweighs whatever pleasure they may get out of that social interaction. That's why with Onlyfans - it's so much easier, it is all virtual. They text/type, they don't have to speak, they don't have to meet the performer, they don't have to even show their faces (not that the performer actually wants to see the face of the paymaster in most cases). We're talking about a segment of the market whereby the men have a) no social skills at all and thus don't dare to meet people and b) have the spending power to pay for bespoke content and c) are happy to spend money on their favourite performers. I am old enough to remember life before the internet and social media took over our lives, but even in those days, there remains a segment of the population which were so Otaku that they wouldn't dare to walk into a strip club or brothel due to their fear of social interactions and absence of social skills. Choaniki talks about two consenting adults, well that actually involves meeting another human being and that's something we shouldn't take for granted when talking about Otakus.
DeleteY'know there's also straight female "Otaku"s, but they just read romance novels like 50 shades of grey or Twilight, or fanfiction with self-insert characters haha. That's a whole sad market in and of itself, but is somehow more socially acceptable than OnlyFans because it's easier to disguise.
Delete