Tuesday, 27 September 2022

Asian families: duty vs love, a cultural quirk or a big problem?

Hi there, over my discussions with my readers, I have come to realize one aspect of my Asian culture which I have found very difficult to reconcile myself with - it is this concept of duty vs love. Even though I was born and raised in Singapore, I have spent more than half my life (54.34% to be precise) of my life in the West thus whilst I am familiar with the culture in Singapore and that of my parents, my cultural identity is far more like my peers in the UK. I'd like to address an aspect of my Asian culture that I find painful to put up with to the point where I have just totally rejected it. In Asia, you have the concept of duty - it is your duty to respect your parents, it is your duty to take care of your children, it feels like all social relationships are built upon and predicated upon the concept of duty. Contrast that to the West, where social relationships are built upon love - you take care of your parents because your love them rather than because you're duty bound to do so. I remember when I was child, my parents were condemning how awful people were in the West, about how they would abandon their parents if they didn't get along with them and didn't feel morally obliged to take care of their elderly parents. Whereas in places like Singapore and Malaysia, adults to tend to take care of their parents no matter how awful their relationship can be, because they are acting out of duty rather than love. Hence it is this sense of duty, this moral code that defines family relationships in Asian societies but that's quite different in the West where you have to earn everyone's respect, including within your own family. I'm going to compare and contrast these two systems.

In Singapore (and indeed in many other Asian countries with similar cultures), most children will take care of their parents out of a sense of duty - they do so because they feel duty bound rather than because they have any love for their parents. Now that love may be there, it may not, but regardless, the presence or absence of love doesn't influence or change the outcome. Thus Asian children doesn't get the reward from their parents for carrying out this duty, but rather, it is something they give themselves according to their culture: it is that knowledge that when others in their community witness them taking good care of their parents, they would be judged to be good, filial children. Their reward is quite similar to the kind of approval we give ourselves when we choose a salad over fried chicken for lunch - no one is there to pat us on the back for having made the right decision but after years of learning about healthy diets, we automatically feel good about our decision even if nobody witnessed what we ate for lunch. I think that's how my sisters continue taking such good care of our parents despite the fact that they have treated my sisters like crap. I remember one terrible incident when I got into a huge fight with my parents over this - I will give you a short version of it: my sister has just gone out of her way to do my parents a huge favour and my parents somehow just took it for granted that it was her duty to do all that. I told my parents that it would be nice simply to thank my sister - after all, it costs nothing to utter the words 'thank you' and it would make my sister feel good. Instead my parents got extremely defensive and my father yelled at the top of his voice, "after everything I have done for your sister over the years, I have every right to yell at her like she was my slave and she has to do as she is told, out of duty - this is her duty!" I was appalled at my father's attitude, it was awful. 

With parents who treat you like that, who needs enemies? I told my father that he was wrong and he refused to back down, it lead to a huge shouting match but when I told my sister what had happened, she told me that it was pointless to stand up for her. That's just the way things were within her culture, she was okay doing all those things for my parents out of 'duty' and she didn't need them to thank her or express any kind of gratitude. The fact is my parents don't try to pull that kind of behaviour on me because they realize that I simply don't have that sense of duty in my moral code - if my parents want to conclude that I'm a bad son for refusing to behave like my sister, then I can live with that since the feeling is mutual: the way they treat my sister is abhorrent and that they're bad parents. So in Singapore, you do not have the problem of destitute elderly folks being dependent on the state because they can still depend on their children to take care of them out of this Asian sense of duty. So what is happening in places like London? My friend Steve's mother recently passed away - she was in her 90s and had suffered from dementia for the last 15 years. He took such good care of her throughout that period, it was touching how he had put her needs first. But Steve didn't do it out of duty per se, he did it all out of love - Steve's father died quite early, so his mother became a widow and had to bring him up all on her own but she was an amazing mother who did everything she could to make sure Steve always had what he needed. I look at the kind of mother and son relationship that they had and quite frankly, I am jealous because that love was so real: it was precious and beautiful. You don't need Asian values and a sense of duty when there is true love in the family. 

For many older Asian people, this sense of duty defines their role in society, in their community whilst this concept of 'love' is quite alien and foreign to them. So when it comes to marriage, you have the duty to get married and have children in order to please your parents, to fulfill the expectations they have placed upon you, to carry on the family name - any notion of love, passion, romance or happiness is quite alien to this whole process. In fact, in some Indian families, they take this to an extreme with arranged marriages whereby the parents pick the spouse on behalf of their children - the children go through with this kind of arrangement out of a sense of duty since it is impossible to love someone you don't even know but you're forced to marry. But somehow, these Asian children make peace with that by accepting that it is their duty to do as they are told, that it is their responsibility to fulfill that role and within that context, they try to make the best of a bad situation. I knew of this Indian couple who had a loveless arranged marriage - it wasn't antagonistic, it was not like they were fighting, but they both accepted that they weren't in love and the husband was a successful lawyer who focused on his career, spending his free time with his colleagues whilst the wife dedicated herself to becoming the best mother she could be whilst spending time on her hobbies (she is part of a choir) that brought her a lot of joy - joy that she was never going to get from her husband. Some Asian people may look at that couple and claim that arrange marriages do work, but what I see in that couple is just two Asians with that shared sense of duty - a common goal, both willing make really huge personal sacrifices in the name of duty and make the best of what they have within that context. 

It would also be unfair to condemn this aspect of Asian culture whereby they view marriage as a duty rather than an option if they happen to find the right person to fall in love with. It can be argued that such an attitude can lead to more stable relationships if your expectations are low - sure your spouse may be ugly, overweight and a bit of a loser, but hey you're not supposed to be in love, you're instead faithfully performing an important duty that is expected of you. That's how I felt recently when I ate some celery - it was on sale at the supermarket and I thought, great, celery is healthy and I can add these into my salads. But when I got a mouthful of fibrous celery, I was suddenly reminded of why I don't normally buy celery - it doesn't taste great, there are far tastier vegetables to enjoy in one's salads and celery isn't one of them. But still, I dutifully ate my salary as I told myself that it was full of great vitamins that will keep me healthy and thin, that I need plenty of fibre in my diet, so chew away, celery is great for my body even if I don't really enjoy eating it. So yes, I am going to get through that big bunch of celery in my fridge even if I don't like celery because I view eating celery as a duty, rather than a treat like eating chocolate ice cream. That's why divorce rates are higher in the West, couples will break up if their relationships aren't working out but in Asia, unhappy couples will always stay together regardless because they have much lower expectations when it comes to their relationships - this is a duty that they have to perform whether they like it or not, thus marriage is treated like eating celery in the East and when your expectations are that low, then you are less likely to be disappointed with your married life. As the saying goes, a pessimist is never disappointed. 

Now you may think, well that's great isn't it? This sense of duty has great benefits! You're healthy because you feel the need to eat celery out of duty. Well, allow me to show you how it can be extremely frustrating in practice. I remember a massive argument I had with my father about my uncle - now this is my mother's younger brother who is a good for nothing. He had always struggled to hold down a job and had the habit of going from relative to relative, begging for money. My father had just given me a long rant about how he hated my uncle and I simply agreed with him that my uncle was a loser; however, that crossed the line for my father as my uncle was older than me, he was my elder and thus my father had the right to criticize my uncle (as my father was older than my uncle) but I didn't (as I am younger than my uncle). I challenged my father's logic - I am intelligent, very well educated and I have a wealth of life experience. I'm in my 40s, it's not like I'm a ten year old child who doesn't quite understand what is going on. Was my father going to deny me the right to judge my uncle simply on the basis of the fact that my uncle was older than me and so I had to automatically any kind of judgment and default to respect for my uncle, despite the fact that my father himself had just scathingly condemned my uncle? Yup, according to my father, that's the way it was in our culture and I was having none of it. So that argument went downhill quickly (I'll spare you the details) and nothing was resolved; I can't change my father's mind and he simply didn't have the social skills to try to persuade me to change my mind; his default position was just, we are Chinese and that is the way we always do things. He was simply unaware of any alternatives to that system. 

The reason why people like my father apply these rules of duty within Asian culture so very strictly is because he doesn't want me to judge him for his own faults and failures - elders within Asian culture are beyond reproach and if they are flawed, well we're supposed to just ignore those faults and offer them unconditional respect regardless. Well I think that's insane, that's ridiculous and complete bullshit. But then again, people like my father don't know otherwise, these were the social norms and rules that he has grown up with and has known all his life thus he is utterly bewildered when I tell him that I reject those rules and refuse to abide by them. My father certainly got no love from his parents - in fact, they treated him very badly and he still, out of duty, offered them unconditional respect and that was why he had assumed that I would do the same. Likewise, there was never any love, romance or even warmth in his marriage to my mother - no, they didn't get married because they were in love but rather because they both believed that it was their sacred duty to get married and start a family. So there was a certain satisfaction, even joy in following the rules and fulfilling that duty - allow me to give you an analogy: some of you would be familiar with the video game Dance Dance Revolution and if you're not, please see the Youtube video below. In this game, you stand on a dance platform and follow a set of moves by stepping on the corresponding pad in time with the music. There's no room for any kind of creativity or improvisation - this is a test of how strictly you can follow the routine as prescribed by the game and it can get very challenging. The experts in this game spend long hours memorizing the very complex and difficult routines in order to get the top scores. 

Thus within Asian culture, this obsession with following the cultural norms as a form of duty is often passed off as a tradition - so when Asian people offers respect to their parents or relatives out of a sense of duty rather than genuine admiration, then they are merely being traditional and proud of their culture. I must remind you that it is hard to be the perfect Asian child - first you're expected to do really well at school and ace all your exams. Then you would be expected to get into a top university, preferably with a scholarship and then have into a prestigious and lucrative in something like banking, medicine or law, where you can make a lot of money; then you have to get married and start a family. Fail to achieve any of that and you'll be judged by your community. Yeah, it ain't easy being Asian - excelling in school and making a lot of money certainly isn't easy and many Asians do fall short in those aspects but what they are really good at is fulfilling these other cultural aspects in the name of 'duty'. It is hardly surprising then that you will find that the Asians who are the most "traditional", who place the most emphasis on observing cultural norms such as this concept of 'duty' are those who are working class, poor and have failed in the pursuit of academic excellence and making a lot of money. Hence that's why this notion of 'duty' still dominates many Asian societies because just like playing Dance Dance Revolution, those who become very good at fulfilling their duty have mastered the art of petting themselves on the back for being so good at being traditional. After all, they may suck at school and have a lowly paid job, but damn they are so good at fulfilling this aspect of their culture. Hence such people take great pride and satisfaction in being very traditional. 

Don't get me wrong, this Asian sense of duty isn't a necessarily bad thing, indeed it can be harnessed for the public good. During the pandemic, Asian societies were very compliant when it came to mask wearing compared to the West where people simply refused to wear masks. In Singapore even after the mandate to wear masks was lifted, people still carried on wearing masks whereas in London, less than half the people compiled with mask wearing rules even when it was mandatory. The contrast is because young people do not mind or care if they get Covid - some may experience mild symptoms but they're unlikely to get seriously sick. However, the elderly and the vulnerable could become deathly ill with Covid and so it takes a concerted effort by everyone, including the youths, to stop the spread of Covid by wearing masks. This is why the death rate of Covid is much lower in East Asian countries like Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong and South Korea compared to the West where far more people died directly as a result of this refusal by many to wear masks. Thus when you look at the role this sense of duty can play on a much larger scale during a crisis, then this can most certainly be a force for good when it can influence personal decisions such as  complying with a mask wearing mandate. Thus in the East, everyone has made some sacrifices in order to minimize the death toll, but in the West, the onus is on the elderly and the vulnerable to make a much bigger sacrifice by self-isolating whilst the rest of the younger, healthier folks rip off their masks and get back to life before Covid-19. Therefore, I am sure many Asians would look at what happened in places like the UK and shake their heads in utter disbelief as we must come across as incredibly selfish and reckless. 

This is however, a double-edged sword for Asian societies. When young people are conditioned to give unconditional respect to older people in authority out of this sense of duty to maintain order in their society, then you have hopelessly incompetent people in positions of authority. Allow me to give you a simple example: when I was tutoring my nephew for his A level exams last year, I was very shocked at the poor quality of his notes. They had not been updated for ages, with case studies woefully out of date and it was clear that the lazy teacher had not even bothered to update the teaching material year after year and had simply recycled the same notes over and over again. There was no mention of the Covid-19 which was going to have the biggest impact on the economy and the most likely topic that would come up in the exams and I had to cover that topic with my nephew. However, everyone from my nephew to his parents to the other students found it very hard to criticize this lazy teacher - it seemed that I was the only person willing to call a spade a spade, that this awful teacher was terrible at her job. My sister was really terrified of me criticizing my nephew's teacher because she feared that doing so our encourage my nephew to question the authority of the teachers at his school. I thought, my nephew is not stupid - like surely he can tell the difference between a good and a bad teacher; when I was a teenager, I certainly wasn't blind to the faults of some of the more awful teachers' I've had. But yet, as Asians, we were almost expected to self-censor such dissenting thoughts and dutifully offer anyone placed in a position of authority blind trust and respect, even if it was evidently clear that this person was utterly terrible at their job - this is such a major flaw.

This Asian system depends on everyone to do their duty and it all falls apart so quickly if people like that terrible teacher do not pull their weight. There's nothing wrong with students being respectful to their teachers at school as long as their teachers are good teachers who are willing to work hard and do their jobs properly - in the West, we would hold the bad teacher to account and we would have no qualms about pointing out to the students when something is wrong. In fact, giving students the right to hold their teachers to account ensures that no teacher would dare to be lazy at all then - there are some further education institutions in the West who regularly get their students to rate their teaching staff;  I can just imagine how Singaporeans would be mortified by that concept! In the West, a good teacher wouldn't worry about any kind of inspection or scrutiny - the teacher would gladly invite you into the classroom and witness just how well the lessons are taught. But in the East, teachers would complain that even suggesting that their work could be subject to scrutiny would undermine that sense of order in the classroom and destroy the learning environment if the students no longer believe that their teachers are beyond reproach. One would like to imagine that Chinese, Korean and Japanese societies are so orderly, where everyone does their duty and follow the rules - it would be great if that was indeed the case, but that system unfortunately allows those in positions of authority (even a bad teacher) to get away with murder because this system gives them the benefit of the doubt whilst they clearly do not have the honour to perform their duty. 

In conclusion, I don't think neither systems are completely wrong or bad - they are simply very different ways to run a society which will lead to different outcomes. Like all systems and business models, they work fine in principle if people involved do what they are supposed to do but things can fall apart if the individuals involved do not follow the plan. What can frustrate me sometimes is when one party assumes the worst of the other when it reality, each system has its pros and cons. But for me, I simply can't do what my sisters do - they gain a great deal of satisfaction from performing their duty as perfect, filial daughters whilst getting nothing in return from my parents whereas I would find that kind of relationship just way too frustrating. The only reason why it works for my sisters is because they are willing to reward themselves for being so dutiful whilst I would expect my parents to be nice to me (for example, by taking an interest in what I do with my life) if they want me to be nice to them. So there you go, that's it from me on this topic - what do you think? Have you found yourself trapped between two cultures the way I have? Do you think I have been way too harsh on Asian culture in this aspect? Do you think it is fair to say that one system is better than the other or should we simply mind the gap and respect the differences? Why do you think Asian people are so quick to condemn the way things are done in the West without truly understanding the difference then? Leave a comment below and many thanks for reading. 

45 comments:

  1. Hey Alex. I remember when I first came to Singapore to do my undergrad I asked a classmate of mine if she even liked engineering and why she was here. She just looked at me and said "Maslow's heirarchy of needs. I need a respectable job, simply put. Too pre-occupied with that to worry about whether I love what I'm doing." Asian culture is like that because love is a luxury, and Asia hasn't been developed long enough to think about it. That Singaporean thought I was an American on account of my accent, she just assumed that "passions" are a Western thing and not for Asians.

    To be fair, pursuing passions can also go terribly wrong in the West. There's the concept of a "whirlwind romance" where two people are really attracted to each other but won't get along long term because they haven't discussed certain things yet. And of course people who do degrees which don't lead to any economic stability. In Singapore the government limits the number of degree places based on market demand. I cannot imagine America or the UK doing such a thing except for medicine or law. I think this is why there is a bigger penalty to having bad social skills in the West compared to Asia. In Asia your life is pretty much planned out for you based upon a commonly agreed set of social norms/expectations, while in the West it is up to you to find a job you like that pays well and people who want to be your family/friends. In the latter case you must have great social skills to achieve any measure of success, while in the former case you can settle for a minimum standard without much work. So it's not necessarily better/worse, but more "your mileage may vary." So "choice" by itself, does not magically equal happiness. It's an opportunity to be happy, but being more happy requires more effort to avoid whirlwind romances and pick the right degrees/jobs. There are no free lunches after all. I think some people in the west with terrible social skills would love to be magically transported to the East and told to work a decent job and get into an arranged marriage, less thinking required.

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    1. Hi Amanda, one question we have to ask is why this attitude is so prevalent in Singapore? Why are people defaulting to Marslow's hierarchy of needs? You only have to go back to my mother's generation to see really extreme poverty. My mother's sister died at the age of 7 because of an illness and they couldn't afford the medicines. My mother's father literally worked himself to death in his late 40s because they were so poor that even when he fell ill, he had to keep working and what happens when you work 12 hour days when you're very sick? You die. It's that simple. My mother lost her sister and father because they were that freaking poor that people died from poverty. That kind of poverty in Singapore was pretty common in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s where the majority of Singaporeans were very poor - today, only a tiny minority of Singaporeans experience any real poverty as the government does help those who are genuinely destitute and you no longer see people dying of poverty anymore in Singapore.

      So for someone like my mother, marriage is seen as a chance to secure a more comfortable life - like if you married a man who is rich, then you wouldn't suffer, you wouldn't starve and you wouldn't die. That's why concepts like being happy, being in love or enjoying what you did was a luxury they couldn't even afford to think about if they're way too busy trying not to die. The concept of 'duty' in this context is thus a choice when you have to choose between two options: let me give you an example. If you have just entered the workforce and you have two job options: job A is what you are passionate about, very interesting and you'll definitely be very happy there but you won't earn as much money as job B, which is stressful, no fun but better paid. If you have sick parents and loads of hospital bills to be paid, then it would be your duty to go for job B as you're duty-bound to put the needs of your family members ahead of your own. Loads of poorer Singaporeans have been forced to make decisions like that, when poverty controls their decision making process but as Singapore gets richer, can the next generation leave that mentality of 'duty' behind? Maybe the next generation can but with my generation, people like me are a minority and I'm being seen as extremely selfish for daring to care about my own happiness.

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    2. Funnily enough the classmate who said Maslow's hierarchy of needs was decently wealthy. She even went to Raffles Institution and told me what she put on her family's monthly income in the university application (it was in the low 5 figures, the first digit is not a 1). Yeah it is baffling to me why even the seemingly wealthier younger Singaporeans think that way. I get that many older people who lived through the 70s still remember when many Singaporeans struggled to survive and didn't even get past a primary school education. I guess it's just what their parents have passed down to them I suppose. This generation when they have kids (more like if, since the birth rate is so low) probably won't push their kids that hard to pick duty over passions.

      Yeah why are you considered selfish? I've seen that argument put forth many times about childless adults. Isn't it more selfish to have a child you can't take care of or love adequately but expect to entertain you and listen to you? I think it's just spite. A case of "if I can't be happy, you can't be happy."

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    3. Aaaah yes, that's an interesting case. I remember this Chinese journalist writing an article to try to explain why these rich Chinese tourists were grabbing food at a buffet as if they were starving refugees who haven't eaten in a week - the journalist explained that some of the older tourists have experienced real poverty and hunger if they had lived through the 60s and 70s in China when people did die of poverty back then but that mentality is then passed onto their children, if the parents teach their kids, "you must do XYZ or else you will DIE!!" Then they have passed that mentality onto the next generation, it may not be the immediate threat of death as it was with my parents' generation but it may be the threat of misery, so it's more like "if you don't do well in your exams, you won't get into a good university and you will be condemned to a life of misery doing a terrible job! Do you want to be miserable for the rest of your life? If not, then you had better do whatever it takes to ace these exams."

      Going back to the case study of my mother, she saw her sister and father DIE from poverty, so when two close family members DIE from poverty, it does shatter your confidence to dare to enjoy life. So imagine if she sees a luxury product advertised like a cruise holiday, would she gladly spend that money to treat herself or would she say, "I'd better not spend that money, what if I get sick and have hospital bills then I will DIE from poverty if I had spent that money on something like a holiday? Contrast that to me, I've had my ups and downs but one thing I've never lost was that quiet confidence in my ability to make more money given my brains. Sadly for my mother, her experience with losing her sister and father has totally shattered her confidence, so instead of confidence, she experiences fear and worry. That's why my confidence is often mistaken as selfishness because a lot of Asians simply default to what their parents have taught them as a survival mechanism. I daresay you are equally guilty of that!

      Remember when you asked me about how worried you were about the economy entering a recession and how you thought you might face hardship? And I just shrugged my shoulders and said, you're not working class, you're well educated and highly skilled. What the heck are you worried about? You'll be fine. Where's your confidence in your own abilities? Even in a recession, the highly educated highly skilled people are a lot better off than the lowly educated unskilled people doing the worst paid work in a society. Your lack of confidence in your own ability surprised me at that moment, as I thought you were more like me in that aspect.

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    4. I did wonder why you lacked confidence in your own abilities though, given that your parents are rich so they didn't default to that kind of 'survival mindset' the way my mother did given how she saw family members DIE from poverty. You have every reason to be very confident in having a bright future, even if we are entering a recession and the world is a terrible place right now with everything from the war in Ukraine to climate change to the pandemic.

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    5. Yes, when I went to SG so many Singaporeans told me things like "my parents didn't even finish high school." There was even one guy who told me he was neutral about engineering, but his parents have not even paid off their HDB yet and as soon as he starts earning he will help them with that (he has a full scholarship so no student loans to worry about). And he even mentioned "if I had a choice in my life, I would be a char kway teow hawker." Lol if SG was as developed as say Sweden or Norway, we might get more Michelin starred char kway teow restaurants in SG then haha. I love char kway teow...

      Well Alex, you entered the workforce right after undergrad so you have more years of experience making good money. I also did too, briefly, but engineering pay was terrible in Singapore compared to America, maybe because I graduated into a mini-recession in Sg. I was so shocked when that company offered me an internship in California worth 5 figures/month recently, that was more than 3x my monthly full-time engineer salary in Sg. Sure California taxes and rent are higher, but the rent is about similar to Sg and the taxes aren't that much higher. But then I realized in Sg I was a foreigner who needed a work pass, so it was harder for me to land a job. I also didn't have any connections in Sg. Well I did through my cousin, but he works at Meta so nepotism doesn't really work at one of the biggest companies in the world.

      But in America I'm a PR so I guess I'm no longer a second class citizen anymore. At the time when I sent that worry-wart post, my job applications didn't all come back yet. When I tallied the statistics, I sent out applications to 20 companies, got 7 interview requests, and 2 job offers. Not a bad haul I suppose, and 10 of those companies were giants in their fields, which I didn't get any interviews from since they are so competitive anyway (I've met Stanford/MIT graduates rejected without interview from all of these companies). So that interview/offer rate jumps up a lot higher if I don't count companies like UBS, Goldman, Intel, Amazon, etc.
      I even ignored 4 interviews because I didn't study for the quant screening quizzes so had to decline.

      I guess I have less to worry about than I do in Sg, but still I've been raised to never take anything for granted. My dad and cousin are new money (a lot like you actually), so they always told me how easy it is to slide into poverty if you don't aim to be the most qualified applicant in your field.

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    6. Btw any thoughts on kwasi kwarteng's tax cuts? He also lifted a cap on banker bonuses.

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    7. Come to think of it, there is a pretty good reason I haven't been confident till recently. I think I've mentioned this before, but I had terrible social skills growing up. Here's an extreme example. In undergrad some exchange students from MIT were my summer roommates, and one of them found out I was into quantum physics and offered to introduce me to her mentor at MIT who is a famous astrophysicist for a summer project. I declined because I was too shy to talk to a famous astrophysicist over email/zoom.

      In hindsight I've messed up so many interviews/networking opportunities in my late teens/early 20s. I couldn't even get 2nd dates on Tinder at the time either. Only because of the pandemic and having very little to do did I make a conscious effort to work on social skills. It's not too difficult if someone just explains to me in terms of logic statements rather than "just wing it" like other normal non-autistic people do. What I had to do was consciously put myself in other people's shoes whenever talking to them or communicating with them in any form. It took practice, but over time it's just 2nd nature. And also, even if I'm terrific at math/science, I realized if I don't show empathy then I will come across as stupid, or just "difficult/annoying to work with", which is terrible for job interviews. This time round I managed to write the correct things in my resume and not piss off interviewers. Before I would put really rare niche skills in physics, rather than more general purpose things like coding or artificial intelligence which is in high demand lately.

      For example, if I could redo that conversation with that MIT student, I would've realized that even though I'm probably not as good at quantum physics as a prof, I don't have to beat them per se, just beat the other undergrad students at MIT competing for the same spot. And it seems I've already impressed one of them who is on exchange, so I should've at least given it one zoom call. And during the zoom call I shouldn't even bother to impress this famous prof with my knowledge, instead ask them what the project is about, and show willingness to learn because it's impossible for me to know everything needed anyway. I know this all sounds so simple to a non-autistic person, but for me it's taken until my late 20s to understand how to talk to people properly.

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    8. Well I am gonna combine two topics - the UK economy is heading for a major recession because the government has fucked up big time. I'm earning a lot and paid in USD (my employers are Peruvian hence that offer was on the table and I took it), so I'm perfectly fine whilst ordinary folks are well and truly fucked. I was at gymnastics tonight and the coaches there have a fixed pay that is not going up with inflation (which is the highest it has ever been) and inflation is going to get even higher cos we import a lot of things. You wanna drink coffee in the morning? Well that's imported as we don't grow coffee in the UK. The gymnastics coaches are going to have to pay more for their coffee whilst not seeing their pay go up - they're screwed, I'm not. Don't let the rejection get you down, that's a feature of life and I've learnt to develop a very thick skin. There's no point in getting upset, you just have to learn to brush it off.

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    9. Yeah what the hell is going on in the UK economy. It can't all be because of the Ukraine war. Tax cuts while providing energy subsidies sounds ludicrous. And you lucked out a lot getting paid in USD because the US dollar is really strong due to high interest rates. Here in America inflation has been reigned in somewhat, but it's still quite terrible and I know some people who can't even find affordable housing.

      See I notice nowadays I'm less bitter about rejection because I have more options. I suppose you just gotta cast a wide net.

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    10. Oh Liz Truss is completely incompetent and her ministers are totally useless and stupid - it took an election to get rid of Trump and get Biden into the White House. I don't credit Biden personally with the recovery of the US economy but he did the one important thing: he put the right people in charge of the economy and allowed them to do their job. Liz Truss wanted tax cut for the rich and scrap benefits for the poor - she is so scarily right wing even I think she's a bit scary and I'm the one who stands to gain from those tax cuts. You can't slash taxes whilst having nothing to fill the void - her response is that, oh we have less money in the government coffers, we'll just cut services to the poor. That's her way to balance the books and the poor are already facing a terrible winter with high fuel prices, soaring inflation and she's cutting help to the poor to balance the books. Whoopee. What a shit show. I'm no socialist but even I think that's a recipe for revolution. I just look at this and think, one of the gymnastics coaches I chatted to last night has 3 kids, how the hell is he going to pay for everything his children need on that coach's income?! I have no dependents and earn several times what he earns. How are people like him gonna cope?

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    11. Just woke up to see news about the Bank of England intervening in the markets (2nd time in history? after Soros) to prevent pension funds from ending up insolvent. Will you have an article about the new PM Liz Truss? It seems that she might end up being worse than Boris.

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    12. Oh yeah she's fucking awful, but then again, I see it this way: we are a democracy and the majority of the voters are fucking stupid. That's why they voted for the last Conservative government under Boris and now they're getting Truss to cut public spending whilst reducing tax for the rich & the corporations. The poor people in this country as soooo fucked, they are utterly totally fucked they may as well throw themselves out of the window now as they will starve to death this winter whilst people like me will look on and say, "I'm a rich banker who is paid in USD, so I'm perfectly fine whilst you're fucked. Why did you vote for a Conservative government when that's like Turkeys voting for Christmas?" The way I see it, the poor people in this country deserve to be fucked - they deserve to suffer because they voted for Brexit and this is payback time. I hope they all fucking starve & freeze to death this winter, bwahahahahahahaha. Fuck the poor. Long live Truss. Long live the king. Long live bankers' bonuses. Fuck the poor.

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    13. People like me stand to gain the most from a Conservative PM like Truss but even I have never ever given a single vote to the Conservative party before in my life. Poor working class people are the ones who have kept people like Boris in power and I can only conclude that if poor people are fucking stupid enough to vote for a party that will fuck them and make them a lot worse off, then hey, that's democracy in action for you. You get the government you vote for and the poor, by that token, deserve to starve and/or freeze to death this winter.

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    14. Jeezus even though I could benefit from low taxes in the future and don't currently use any social services right now I would never vote for such a policy. Well yeah Alex you're big city rich, even the New York bankers wouldn't want to associate with the average trump/BoJo voter. I think it's because the average Brexit voter doesn't really believe they're poor. But another thing that baffles me about UK politics is that it's usually the older people who vote Tory, rich or poor. Maybe because although other social programs are cut, pensions usually aren't because of the grey vote. Here in America we usually have older people voting against universal healthcare. Not because they don't like it, in fact the elderly already have universal government paid healthcare via Medicare. Instead they vote against universal healthcare for anyone not them because they're afraid it means their benefits will be cut when spread around a bigger population. Like jeezus that's extremely selfish, but I suppose it's better than voting against your own interests, which is what the young poor Republican voters do.

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    15. Here's the thing: statistically, rich people are a minority in this country, you have like the top 20% who are rich, then you have the bottom 20% who are in poverty, then the middle 60% aren't rich at all but they have enough to get by. They're the kind of people who have to watch their bank balance - so for example, if on a whim I wanna do something like spend a long weekend in Croatia, I can just book the holiday without thinking about how much money I have in the bank cos I'm rich. But for those in the middle 60%, doing something spontaneous like that would send them into overdraft territory and they might have trouble paying their bills the next month if they go too far into overdraft. But if you look at these on their social media, you see, "oh look at her on holiday somewhere nice, she can't be poor, that hotel pool looks lovely."

      But my point is that if only the rich supported the Tories, then they'll never make it across the finish line to get into power - given that really, only the top 20% or so are properly rich. It's their reach across the divide, into the middle 60% and the bottom 20% that baffles me as these people are not rich. At best, they're living from one pay check to the other and at worst, they're freaking poor. Yet enough people from those categories support the Tories despite getting a worse deal out of the Tories - now I find that baffling but hey, that's democracy for you. Stupid people make poor choices that leave them in poverty and that includes supporting the wrong political party.

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    16. How much of the current economic crisis do you think is due to Brexit? Or has Brexit just made it worse because the UK no longer has access to EU emergency funds?

      Come to think of it, it doesn't take much to win votes really. Most people don't really vote in their economic interests, they mostly vote for things like ideology and such. But still it's baffling when the poorest 20% thinks Brexit is a good idea just because they feel like kicking out immigrants or whatnot, nevermind what that does to the NHS.

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    17. Let's put it this way, you don't end up with the economy in such a mess because of one factor or mistake - it takes a multitude of factors to end up with such a total disaster and things started going wrong a long time ago, before even Brexit was a thing and that's why we have the situation whereby the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. We knew that but as for why the poor vote for the status quo, now that's beyond me but that's precisely why they are poor. They make very poor decisions to would continue to trap them in poverty.

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    18. Lol I heard that a lot of people in the UK got very upset when Margaret Thatcher destroyed coal mining and manufacturing such that the UK only exports "services", but doesn't physically make anything anymore. To that, I respond that "services" mostly includes innovative jobs like new financial products, or technology. The UK invented the world wide web, and the chip that powers all modern smartphones. I wouldn't say that's not making anything, its just it's not a physical product but an intellectual property. The trouble with intellectual property type jobs is there is a very high barrier to entry, which the poor can't access without years of university education at schools on the higher end of the league table. I guess that's why they're angry, because manufacturing had a lower barrier to entry to work a decent middle class job, but now that's been removed by the Tory party in favor of "rich get richer" jobs like technology.

      By the way, I attended a quantum computing talk today given by a company that exports software that runs on quantum computers to solve problems that normal computers can't. The talk was given by one of their head scientists, but the CEO of the company was also in attendance and answered some questions. I just have one interesting observation regarding social skills. The head scientist, despite being the more knowledgeable one, didn't have great social skills. He gave overly long answers, had a very monotone (german accented) voice, and even though his answers were accurate, I didn't enjoy talking to him. In contrast, the CEO gave very bullshit answers using lots of buzzwords, but he didn't take too much of my time and actually smiled a lot and phrased his answer in an interesting way to hold the audience's attention. Then I realized the CEO doesn't do the day to day science and mostly has to charm investors into giving him millions of dollars who know nothing about the science anyway. But who gets paid more and is better at getting people to like what they're saying? Definitely the CEO. This highly reminds me of what you said once about how there may be some very smart traders in the background at a finance firm, but ultimately they still require sales people to translate what they do into English for customers willing to pay for it. I've never seen such a stark example of that till today. And this company has huge clients including BP and even hedge funds who want to use quantum computers to develop newer and faster quantitative trading algorithms. I would never trust that head scientist to talk to a hedge fund, too monotone... I see why the CEO felt the need to tag along today haha!

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    19. Oh yes, let me explain what happned in the 1980s. You have to see it from the POV of the people who were the working class. If you were a miner or a factory worker, you had very little formal education - you probably were barely literate but you were trained to go into the mine or factory everyday and do a repetitive task. So whilst you didn't have a degree, you were an expert in operating that same machine you had operated for the last 10, even 15 years and you probably became quite good at that task (well, if you're going the same task for that long, you're going to become an expert at it). I remember watching a video of a group of women who worked at a hotel laundry - there was a lot of bedsheets, pillow cases, towels to be washed and these women were super efficient in taking the clean laundry, sorting them, folding them into neat stacks but that's all they did all day. Is this a skilled job? No, but they were in auto-pilot mode to the point where it was mesmerizing how efficient they had become. But for people who work in jobs like that, it is no use to tell them, "hey there are well paid jobs in IT and banking". Remember, this was the 1980s, these people were so uneducated they barely knew how to use a telephone, never mind operate a computer or deal with complex processes. That's why the best they could have hoped for really was to do what those ladies folding the laundry did - find a simple process to master (like folding the washing), become good at it and do that for the rest of your life. When you're uneducated and stupid, you have very, very few options of employment and thus these people were well and truly fucked when Thatcher shut down mining and manufacturing. You have to remember that in the UK, the top 20% are rich and the bottom 80% are working class/poor so a lot of people were dependent on such working class jobs. We have a massive inequality problem and this shift towards IT/banking service industry type jobs has only widened the divide - yes on the whole, as an economy, we're richer and making more money but the divide is only getting wider and wider between the rich and the poor.

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    20. Yeah sometimes I forget that even though it was a good thing overall for Thatcher to shift economic policy towards higher quality goods so that the world can have internet and smartphones, only a minority of people have the talent and resources to access these jobs. For the other 80% they need to find some way of making a living that is within their abilities, and the removal of these low skill jobs and replacement with high skill jobs doesn't fix that. I mean I'm in a quantum computing course right now taught by companies like IBM, but even at our university with billions of dollars and a 3% acceptance rate, not everyone in the class is expected to succeed and be able to program a quantum computer at the end, even though there are high paying jobs available for this in-demand skill.

      I can't say I have the solution. But it does show the benefits of having a diversified economy. In Germany they have the universities and tech companies for the top 20%, but they also have trade schools and manufacturing companies for the other 80%. I remember talking to my German friend in Sg who said his brother in law back in Germany makes a living doing roofing, and he makes a lot of money from that despite it not being particularly innovative only because it's a niche skill he's trained for that not many people want to go into. The UK does have trades but the vast majority of middle class people go to university and work a white collar job instead. For an economy based on services, that only leads to low paying cashier type jobs for the working class. People say that the solution in socialist countries like Denmark is just to have generous welfare and "social transfers", so even if someone isn't earning a lot working a service job they still have a comfortable life funded by taxes.

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    21. The solution that countries like Sweden and Germany have found is to invest in technical training for the people who are never going to make the top 20% - so if you don't go to university, you can still have a wide range of technical professions where you can add a lot of value, such as in roofing. The massive problem in Singapore and the UK at the moment is that there isn't that middle ground - you either join the top 20% by winning the genetic lottery by being intelligent enough to have the brains to join an elite profession, or you're condemned to long hours being paid peanuts in a working class job. What's shocking particularly in Singapore is the power of denial fueling the education industry - even if a student is clearly not top 20%, parents go into denial and say, "I know my kid is stupid, but I have no choice but to invest in my child's education so that we can maintain the illusion that this kid may be top 20%." So I shake my head in utter disbelief when Singaporeans say, "everyone must have a degree these days", so they send their kids to a degree mill for a degree not worth the paper it is printed on just for the dumb kid to say, "I am a graduate too." That's ludicrous as that time and money could have been spent learning something a lot more useful, like roofing or plumbing instead.

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    22. Oh yes in Asia many parents are in denial their child is not in the top 20%. Because when there are only two choices in life, might as well pick the higher paying one because the alternative is too bleak. I heard in Sg they only have seats at NUS/NTU/SMU/SUTD for 30% of the graduating high school/poly cohort, which means the other 70% are stuck because there isn't the option to do an apprenticeship at a local company or to be a plumber/electrician. But even of that 30% not all of them even finish the degree, and universities don't want to be accused of dumbing down the material just to raise graduation rates.

      It does make me wonder who does become a plumber/electrician in Sg and what does that pay? I suppose people who go to poly? Like you said the lack of career options is a big issue. It's not that the plumber is more productive than a quantum physicist who makes chips for iPhones, it's that there is limited supply of plumbers relative to demand because it's such a niche field even though everyone needs running water in their home. Same goes for people who make plastic tupperware, fertilizer, or processed food like Kimchi.

      I think you once did a post about these kinds of jobs actually. It was about jobs which weren't highly prestigious and difficult to get into like banker/lawyer/doctor/scientist, but not working class jobs that anybody can do like janitor/cashier. It was the jobs in the middle which were so niche that they provided a good living to people working them despite not having a super high barrier to entry. I think one example was kimchi maker actually. In Singapore there are small businesses which provide a decent living for the people running them, but they aren't considered as glamorous compared to working for the many multinational companies with branches in Singapore. In the US there are plenty of small business owners and companies, but many require someone to have an expensive university degree in order to work for them instead of training apprentices like in Germany. Maybe it's not degrees per se which are the issue, but the requirements that companies impose on all employees for decently paying jobs even if the job doesn't really require a degree in the first place, or someone to be in the top 20% of intelligence.

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    23. Oh it's the usual sad story: working class boy in Singapore fails to get into NUS/NTU/SMU or one of the respectable universities; parents go into denial and either sink their life savings into sending him abroad or worse, a private university just so he can enter the job market as a graduate whilst completely ignoring the fact that HR managers and gatekeepers can see that they went to a terrible university, it's pretty obvious. Yet they refuse to accept the plumper / roofer / electrician route. There's a huge difference between a skilled blue collar job like an electrician / plumber vs an unskilled one like someone cleaning the toilets. So in Panama for example, a third world country, when I had a problem with my flush at the hotel, the hotel night manager just put on his mask, grabbed his bag of tools and surprisingly, he fixed it within 2 minutes flat, so quickly. There was this can do attitude where people got their hands dirty whereas in places like Singapore or London, we'd be like, oh dear call the plumber. So it's not like plumbers don't make money, it's just the attitude of if you do work in that kind of job, you accept that you are not in the top 20% making big money and for Singaporeans, they go into denial about that.

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    24. I guess the concept of "highly paid blue collar" is too alien for Singaporeans. In the country I grew up in, which is a poor country, you also don't find much highly paid blue collar people. But that's only because to support such jobs you do need some good know-how. Not to the point of quantum physicist or banker, but more than just a primary school education. A good example is welder. It's not just working with your hands like a food prep person in a restaurant. You have to know some chemistry and metallurgy, but not to the point where you can design new superconducting materials like a quantum physicist. Likewise for car mechanics, roofers, plumbers, electricians. Actually recently my air conditioner broke down and I had to call a HVAC technician. They opened the outside ac unit and found one of the electrical components(a capacitor) was dead and replaced it with a new one. That does take some training and know how. But someone from the older generation in Singapore doesn't see that as a viable option. This actually keeps with the theme of this blog post, duty vs love. The type of person who settles for a middle class trade is someone who admits they'd rather be happy with a decent amount of money than work long hard hours at a high prestige job beyond their ability to do without breaking a sweat. According to Asian culture that is not good because one isn't trying for the highest paid job. But from western culture it is because they also look at productivity and return on investment, dollars earned divided by hours worked or education invested.

      By the way, what about marriage? I've been talking to some women who complain there's not a lot of men available, or not a lot of wealthy men, or men who are intimidated by their career, etc. Personally I used to not be able to get any dates that I assumed it was my career, etc. Now I open my dating app profile with "quantum physicist" and gets lots of questions about it. My conclusion is, it doesn't matter what you do, but how interesting you can make it sound in person. I think it all comes down to social skills. Many women say "men only care about looks" but I'm not that pretty. I just think if you have terrible social skills, and can't make your job sound interesting or have similar hobbies, then you have to be extra good looking as a woman because you have little else to offer. A lot of times people talk about men not being able to talk to women, but the opposite is true as well. In Asian society there is also pressure to marry "up", but not much emphasis on how to attract someone in the first place. Waving a bachelor's degree or a PhD in front of someone certainly doesn't work.

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    25. I suppose your mother has made peace with the fact that she's not in the top 20% in either intelligence or hard work. That's fine. What is not fine is not being to empathize with her son who is different from her. Now that's just being rude and bad social skills. But wow, you are definitely better than a lot of monolingual people who don't even bother learning a 2nd language without formal schooling. Like I'm already very impressed with your French since French is not widely taught in Singapore. By the way, why wouldn't Peruvian bankers speak English well? You once mentioned you dealt with a private banker from Turkey who spoke good business English. I'd expect the elite in most countries to know English, unless the South American market is large enough that they can get by in Spanish alone.

      By the way some interesting statistics about marriage. Apparently in the 2000s and 2010s, a college educated woman in the US is more likely to be married than one with less education (high school or below). So I'm very surprised when women complain being educated is giving them a disadvantage because statistics don't lie. In the 1970s that was true, but not in the 2010s. Also surprisingly only 10% of college educated men nowadays married a woman without a college degree, but 25% of college educated women married a man without a degree. So it's the men who've gotten snobbier! But I also hate when economists bemoan that marriage rates are going down historically, because I think back then people weren't that happy in their marriages but were pressured to marry and have kids, and highly discouraged to get divorced by religion.

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    26. By the way, speaking of trades vs. degrees and marriage, I went on two dates this week. One with a guy who is a math major and now works as a software developer, and the other with a guy who fixes heating/cooling systems who went to trade school. I felt like the first guy was more "judgemental" in a way... he quizzed me on my research and even told me he went to private school, almost as if he was hoping I also went to one. His father is also a wealthy lawyer, of course haha. The second guy didn't care at all what I did but loved talking about his job sitting on a roof today for 5 hours fixing a broken air conditioning unit with a friend who is in the same trade, and he laughed a lot more and told a lot more jokes.

      The funny thing is, I felt like the 2nd guy was a lot happier with his life than the 1st guy, even though the 1st guy made twice as much, but software developers make a lot in general. The 1st guy didn't even like his masters degree topic but did it anyway, it sounded like he was just born into a wealthy family and pressured to go get a masters degree to maintain status. I had a good time with both, and I found that both guys like gaming and watch similar tv shows, but wasn't expecting a surprise math quiz from the math major haha. But it's great that men don't see women's education as a hindrance nowadays. And I don't mind dating a tradesman to be honest. A lot of people think it would be "beneath me" to date a man with less education, but as we've talked a lot on this blog, university doesn't have a monopoly on knowledge. Many smart and funny people never went to university because they either didn't have the opportunity or didn't need it to start working.

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    27. Well I am used to my autistic mother's response - she is unable to see things from another person's point of view, she can only see things from her own point of view. So let me give you a simple example: when I went to Iceland years ago expecting snow, I got +5 degrees and rain so it was unusual, it was warmer than expected. My mother's response was "but 5 degrees is very cold". Yeah, for her, compared to tropical Singapore, 5 degrees is very cold but the average temperature for that time of the year in Iceland should have been around -8 degrees and not above zero. She couldn't apply the context to the +5 degrees of "what should be the expected temperature at that time of the year for Iceland", she was only able to reference her own point of view. She has been doing that all her life, so when she talks about settling - accepting that you're not as smart as the others and not trying to prove yourself, well she's expressing what she has been doing all her life. But you're right, she is not showing empathy and that's not what a mother should be doing - now you see why I hardly talk to her.

      And yes, in Latin America, the market is so huge you don't need English. One of my bosses speaks English well as he was educated in Canada but that's a fancy thing that rich people do, they send their kids away to be educated in US/Canada so they can learn English to a high standard but there are limits as well to his English. We were on a Zoom call with a British guy and he couldn't understand the British client as the British guy had an accent, so I had to translate for him into Spanish. The hardest part about foreign languages is listening comprehension - like I can read perfectly fine in Spanish but I struggle when they speak way too fast and with an accent. It's the same for my boss in English, listening comprehension is the hardest part. English is a prestige language in Latin America but it's really unnecessary unless you travel frequently or deal with foreigners.

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    28. As for dating, well there are two components to it - there has got to be a meeting of minds, this connection where you feel you can talk for hours and not realize how much time had passed, like you've found your soul mate. Then there's that raw, physical sexual attraction of course. You can meet someone you're not attracted to physically and then still become good friends, but not 'date' or have sex - then you can have sex with someone you experience sexual chemistry with but realize you don't have enough in common to become anything more than fuck buddies (yes that's a term for people in precisely that situation). To tick both boxes is a big ask in today's world, which is why I suppose the less picky we are, the more likely we are to settle down. But then I do wonder what's the point of settling - I'd rather be single than settle/compromise for less.

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    29. It must be very difficult talking to someone who just completely disregards your opinion like that, or doesn't even aim to be remotely objective.

      Lol sometimes I feel like the Liverpool accent is difficult to understand even for native English speakers. I can understand some mandarin but only the kind of mandarin spoken by official news anchors. But when the news people go on the street and ask the average Chinese person their opinion, my listening comprehension goes out the window and I can't hear a single word through the local accents.

      Yes it is a big ask to find a guy who you get along with and want to sleep with. My ex ticked the attractiveness box, but otherwise we disagreed on religion/politics and he was rude to anyone working class which really pissed me off when we went out. At least the internet and online dating, or even meetup.com has made it easier to pick between a larger pool of partners. But still it's hard work sifting through all the options. I was thinking about why the top 10% highest earning women have a higher marriage rate, but dates are expensive so it's not cheap to have to look at all the options to find the most suitable one.

      Well Alex you don't want kids so you don't have a biological clock to pressure you to settle. I know many women desperate for kids who do settle for men in their 20s or 30s. I think it's not worth the stress to marry into a shaky relationship. But you forget a third factor in marriage in addition to mental and physical chemistry, and that's financial stability. A partner is also a roommate, or even a breadwinner, and life is cheaper when you're married in terms of lower rent and lower taxes. It is a luxury to only think of love just by itself when picking a partner. I mean you question why poor people tend to marry young and have kids young, but that is probably just a reproductive strategy which has propagated itself along generations. Humans would die out as a species if we didn't reproduce, so the people still around today tend to want to. In nature you have the mouse which has many babies several times a year and sexually matures very young, only because resources are scarce and many of the young are not expected to live to adulthood. So might as well buy several tickets to the genetic lottery in the hopes one child is a genius who does beat the harsh odds. Then there's the Elephant/hippo with the 2nd strategy of raising only one child every few years with intense parental investment and a very high chance the child will live to adulthood, but a longer time to sexually mature. The working class don't usually have enough resources to play life like an elephant, but a rich banker like yourself does haha. You don't even have to have your own kids, but help your sister raise your nephew by helping with A level economics. You're elephant uncle Alex haha.

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    30. Oh it's just as well I don't live in the same country as my nephew as I would have intervened a lot more as an uncle and that would have resulted in a lot of conflict with my sister and brother in law - my sister has a lot of maternal instinct which is of the "come and let mummy give you a hug" whereas you should have seen me when I taught my nephew skiing. He would crash into the barrier and I'd be like, "get up, what did I tell you about slowing down before turning? You like crashing like that? Then you'd better start listening to me." Whereas you should see how his mother reacts when he crashes. Duh.

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  2. Hi Alex, thanks for addressing this crucial topic of duty vs love. I have extremely autistic in-laws, who are working class, ignorant and rude. My own husband can't really stand them but as the DIL, I tried to reach out to them. After all, DILs must be "dutiful" right?

    They tend to make snide remarks, especially targeted at me. I ignore them, bearing in mind their lack of intelligence and decorum. But recently their autism levels went off the roof. A few days after I suffered a miscarriage (it was a much-wanted pregnancy), my MIL suddenly made a remark to my husband in my presence, "thankfully I was able to preserve you!" It stung as I was already heartbroken, but her comment insinuated failure on my part in losing the baby.

    My husband immediately jumped in to defend me, telling her not to blame me for the miscarriage and that it's not my fault at all. Yet my MIL persisted in saying that it was all due to her efforts she preserved him. It made us extremely angry, and we decided to bar her from visiting us, especially since I was in an unusually fragile and vulnerable emotional state.

    Afterwards, my FIL messaged my husband, telling him he was rude to his mother and that he shouldn't speak to his elders like that. My husband replied saying she deliberately continued her jibes at me even after being told to stop, and he was warranted in his words and actions. My FIL went ballastic, lecturing my husband (the one who grieved the most alongside me) that my MIL was depressed after I lost the baby and that he should spare a thought for her. It's so insane - I wonder whose baby was it?

    Ceasing communications (even for a while to cool off) was seen as horribly unfilial. We still have our mandatory weekly family dinners together, but there isn't any love. Not after what happened.

    Just shared my story because I wanted to say I understand how it's like dealing with severely autistic elders. People will give you lots of grief but they don't know the full story, and will just assume the younger generation is in the wrong.

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    1. Hi Ahelia, thanks for your comment and sharing your story. I'm so so sorry to hear about your miscarriage. My sister went through the same experience: first that profound sense of personal loss (she even had a name for the unborn girl and had made all these plans) and then second round of pain from the in-laws which was unreal. When I got very angry over what happened, I was shocked that my sister said, "some of my friends had miscarriages too and they faced the same bullshit from their in-laws and parents." I also encourage you to read the two follow up posts that I have done in this theme (go to the main page of this blog and look at the recent posts) and it's all about talking about the elephant in the room that nobody dares to talk about, that we all just sweep under the carpet. I can't change a thing but if I can offer at least one person like you some empathy, support and encouragement, then I know I have achieved something through my blog.

      My own parents have zero social skills and are severely autistic, but then again, my grandparents had set a great example. My late grandmother used to call 999, cry down the phone that she was dying, get an ambulance to take her to hospital just to get us all to rush to the hospital, only to be scolded by the doctor, "there's absolutely nothing wrong with your grandmother but when old people like that call 999, they are diverting attention away from genuine medical emergencies and you need to sort things out with your grandmother, pay her visits more often, call her, tell her you love her etc but she has got to stop doing this to get your attention!" But the problem was that my grandmother had ZERO social skills and had no idea how to talk to her children and grandchildren, so that was the only way she knew how to react to her loneliness - how messed up is our culture?! And how do we reacted to all that? We just sweep it all under the carpet by offering our elders unconditional respect despite the fact that they behave like absolute fucking morons with zero social skills and have autism that's off the scale. And that's why I live 8 time zones away from my parents and don't really talk to them except via my sister. I don't know how she puts up with them but somehow she goes. You're amongst friends here Ahelia, welcome and stay & chat with us.

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    2. Hi again Ahelia, allow me to analyze the situation with your in-laws. Please note that I'm 100% on your side and I'm in no way justifying their atrocious, nasty behaviour at all but the same way we can study why Hitler carried out the holocaust, I want to study their behaviour purely as a sociologist, to try to understand why they act like that. A lot of old people simply don't know how to be nice to people, they don't know the concept of saying something tactful, showing empathy or encouraging another person - that's probably because they have never ever experienced it in their own childhoods growing up. We probably picked up these concepts of tact, empathy and being kind to others to make them like us via American TV shows growing up in Singapore. My parents used to condemn those shows, they thought it promoted all kinds of social evils like being rude to your parents, promiscuity, drug abuse and alcoholism. But it was only in condeming the West and putting Asian culture on a pedestal that such older Asian parents were able to block out any of the positive aspects of Western culture. In any case, that's why they're so hopeless in trying to connect with their own children. In claiming that she didn't have a miscarriage with your husband, your MIL was merely trying to claim credit that she was a good mother to your husband. It wasn't so much an attempt to deliberately hurt you, but I can see how she was like, "aaah my daughter in law has been in hospital over the miscarriage and now everyone is going to fuss over her, what can I say to attract attention to myself as I am so freaking lonely I want people to notice me?" It's a horrible situation. I actually know of this real case where an older mother in Singapore (v similar to your MIL) was a victim of domestic abuse, her husband would beat the crap out of her and the children were like, she deserves to be beaten up for the crap she says all the time to provoke him. It was so bad that she ended up in hospital with broken bones - the police and a social worker got involved. She confessed that her children ignore her as she is uneducated, her husband doesn't even take a second glance at her as they are no longer in love and thus she is so desperate for attention that provoking him is the only way that she knows how to get him to notice her - she gladly puts up with the beatings as she was beaten as a child and was used to the pain, but the mental anguish of being invisible to her own family, especially her own husband, was worse than the pain of the beatings, so the pain of the beatings actually kept her alive, it was the one thing that kept her connected to her family. That's the kind of messed up shit that affects our older generation and they pay an awfully high price for their lack of social skills to get people to like them or even notice them. Hence in sheer desperation, they do hideously stupid things to try to attract attention to themselves but they do it not out of malice but desperation, out of loneliness and most of all, out of stupidity.

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    3. It's the death by a thousand papercuts - I remember this incident when I visited Singapore and my sister made this amazing dinner featuring all my favourite Singaporean food. She had spent like 6 hours in the kitchen that day and at that party, there was me (the prodigal son returns to Singapore) and my nephew, naturally everyone invited was keen to catch up with me and talk to me, then of course my nephew also gets a lot of attention as well as he's the kid amongst adults. So my mother was ignored as she didn't know how to talk to people, not even amongst close relatives, she tried to help in the kitchen but my sister decided no you're a guest, I've got all the food preparation under control, just go talk to the friends & family out there in the living room. My mother didn't know how to handle that situation - like she has ZERO social skills to even talk to her own family members and that's how awkward she is. So what did she do? She started tasting the food and complaining how everything tastes so awful, that everything was wrong. When I saw her kicking up a big fuss, I rushed to the kitchen to see what the hell was wrong and honestly, there was nothing wrong with the food at all. But my mother does shit like that as she doesn't know how to attract attention to herself apart from creating a crisis when there is none. She bitched and complained so much about the awful food that my brother in law even offered to take her to a restaurant that evening if the food was not to her liking, but I put my foot down and I told my mother to shut the hell up as there was nothing with the food and that she was being a stupid cunt as usual. After she got scolded by me, my mother shut the hell up and sulked. But in hindsight, holy shit, how fucking pathetic is that whole shit show (aka my family, the biggest shit show in all of Singapore). I got hell from my father for scolding my mother but I just told him to go fuck himself as well. Now you see why I have to live a good 8 time zones away from my family as I want no part of that shit show.

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  3. Thanks so much Alex for your replies - I feel seen and understood. I'm very sorry to hear about your sister's miscarriage and nasty experience with her in-laws as well.

    I have read your other two posts and I do agree it's the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. My only hope is that with our generation, majority of whom are more conscious and aware, generational patterns will be broken.

    I fully agree with your analysis on my MIL's behaviour - it is spot on. I had previously shared with a friend what happened and she also thought that it's a case of attention seeking. I can rationally see why she said it, but my heart just sinks at the thought of having to interact with such toxic people for the rest of my life.

    Quite honestly, I became more ambivalent about having kids after experiencing this. I can foresee that it will be extremely difficult for both my husband and me, because unlike in the US, no-contact is not tolerated here. In the US, if your in-laws are toxic, you can just cut them off, and people will encourage you to have firm boundaries. Here...you will be seen as the #1 unfilial child, and especially if it's the DIL's initiative, then she will forever be maligned. What if she decides to clamour for attention after I give birth in the future? What other antics will she resort to? I shudder to imagine. I had hoped my in-laws (with all their shortcomings) can be part of the village it takes to raise a child, but now I don't trust them anywhere near any future kid of mine.

    Your poor sister... She put in so much effort in the kitchen to prepare a lavish dinner, only to get criticised so savagely by your mother. I totally see why, and just wonder how much suffering your sister has to endure.

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    1. Hi Ahelia. I'm glad to hear back from you. I know that we can't get any love from our parents' generation but we can always be there for each other and give each other loads of empathy, support and understanding. Your MIL is desperate for attention but her total lack of any kind of real social skills has led to to behave like a monster. You call it attention seeking and that's putting it mildly, I just see her as a monster you need to keep your distance from. In the West, it's not so much 'black & white' as in full contact vs no contact. I keep my distance from my husband's family - I wasn't keen on his mother as I felt her social skills were poor but there was no pressure on me to try to be a good son-in-law to her. Likewise, I find my sister-in-law's husband quite working class and uncouth, I just keep my distance and there's no pressure on me to try to befriend him. My sister in law is okay though but urgh, she's married to a real pig.

      I think you should consider coming to work in the UK (or anywhere else) and bringing up your children abroad. Not so much because the grass is greener on the other side of the fence (that's a whole other discussion for another day) but because you can do that away from the in-laws. My sister is in a real mess with my parents now because she thought like you, I can focus on my career and let my parents chip in when it comes to taking care of the child - it's a win win situation. But no, my parents did do a lot of childcare but it came at a hefty price: now their attitude is, "you owe us everything, you still have a career today because we allowed you to focus on your career whilst we took care of your son - now we get to treat you like shit and you are DUTY bound to be nice to us no matter how awful we treat you." It is appalling how nasty my parents are to my sister, we're not talking in-laws here, we're talking my parents being really nasty to their own daughter. Holy shit, It's bad. So please, don't view this whole arrangement as a wonderful Asian family fantasy; if you spoke to my sister about it, she would tell you that it's a bad idea and a price NOT worth paying. She should have moved abroad years ago to have a child in another country, faaaaar away from both her own parents and the in-laws. The problem is with the toxic Asian culture and how the previous generation have turned out - the only solution is to get the hell away from it, as far away as possible.

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    2. Hi Ahelia. I'm also an Asian woman in her 20s who is thinking about having kids one day, though I've only just started dating a guy who could be husband material. But I would never ever tolerate in-laws like that. I live in the US but I was born and raised in Indonesia and did my undergrad in Singapore. I never liked the concept of filial piety because I have a terrible mother who ruined the family finances but uses filial piety to guilt us into letting her get away with it. She'd say things like "I could've aborted you, you owe me and have to support my expenses for the rest of my life." In my mid 20s I said enough was enough, and I wasn't gonna let her ruin my finances in adulthood, let alone tolerate all the emotional abuse, even though she offered to look after my future kids while I pursued my career as a scientist. My parents were divorced before my dad passed away in my 1st year of undergrad, and he told me to always rely on myself and cut the toxic people out of my life ASAP once I make enough money and am financially independent, even if they're family. I shudder to think that if my mom wasn't bad with finances I might just have kept her in my life and tolerated the emotional abuse. But it's not okay and family is the only thing we really have control over considering we have to compromise so much at work to make a decent living.

      Yeah like Alex said, have you considered moving to the UK or some other Western country which has decent public support systems for working mothers? I heard Sweden or Switzerland has decent public daycares and maternity leave laws. Frankly I think the over dependence on the family for essential social services in Singapore is terrible for people who were born to bad parents, because one can't choose their parents. I live in the US where we have expensive education, healthcare, and daycare, so I'm forced to look for the highest paying job that can make use of my scientific training (quantitative finance) in order to support a family in the future. But that's not necessary if you move to a country with more socialist policies, like Canada, Australia, Denmark, Germany, etc.

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    3. Hi Alex and Amanda! Grateful to both of you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. It does make me realise that childcare by grandparents comes at an extremely high price, which is not obvious at first.

      Thanks for your suggestion to move abroad and raise a family there. My husband and I are not high income earners, so countries with more socialist policies (like what Amanda said) may be more feasible options for us.

      But for that very reason, I'm also thinking whether it is prudent to delay having kids, even if it's just one. We are comfortable, but not rich. And I know how much it takes to provide well for a child (whether local or overseas), and I desire to be the best parent I can be.

      @ Alex: I digress - I've read your previous posts about the poor having kids and I'm inclined to agree. It's about what quality of life a parent wishes to provide for a child. Sure, maybe, the kid can eat porridge and fish and not starve to death. But beyond the most basic level of necessities, are they equipped to think critically and handle the complexities of modern life? Are they given opportunities to flourish in arts, sports and academia etc? (I'm keenly aware of this as I could only enter RGS because I got a scholarship. Then I desired fencing or band as a CCA, but my parents couldn't afford all the misc. fees including equipment/instrument. Had to go into Girl Guides instead. Wanted to go for a CIP trip to Cambodia organised by the school, but my mother resisted and stopped me from going due to her paranoia that it's unsafe in third-world countries. Just a few stories that immediately come to mind. So I am determined not to repeat those patterns. The last thing I want is to be a hindrance to my child.)

      @ Amanda: I'm sorry to hear about your mother's emotionally manipulative behaviour, it's so abusive. The concept of filial piety has been monstrously warped into kids being some sort of lifetime ATM/insurance policy.

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    4. Hi there guys, firstly, many thanks to Amanda for joining in the conversation and being so supportive. As for moving abroad, we have a regular reader here who goes by the handle Choaniki - he was determined to move abroad with his wife, then he realized whoops wrong career. He can't get the visa as a skilled migrant despite earning a lot of money in IT. So he switched career, retrained as an X-ray specialist and now he can move anywhere he likes despite earning less than when he did in it. Basically, if you have any kind of medical healthcare related job you can move to any country in the world you like. The immigration system NOT based on how much you earn but supply and demand - right now, there's a chronic decifit for any kind of healthcare related workers and he chose training in X-ray as it wouldn't take as long as trying to be a doctor whilst he was viewed as a more highly skilled technician vs just being a nurse. If you're really determined to move abroad, then I cite you Choaniki's case study. He took a pay cut to move abroad but that's how determined he was to leave Singapore.

      So if you wanna talk more about moving abroad, then we can always have that discussion as I know this topic really well, having gone through the same process myself all those years ago. The UK has also issued a brand new visa that Singaporean graduates from certain universities like NUS can qualify for and again, that visa is issued on the basis of your university and it doesn't care what your job or income is. We have a great work life balance in the UK and the reason why we don't need grandparents to step in and cover for us when it comes to childcare is because we work sensible hours: parents can leave the office at a reasonable time, go home and spend quality time with their kids whilst my sister would be working till 10 pm in Singapore. The system and society is just so different and once you realize how much greener the grass is on this side of the fence, I'll let you make up your own mind on the matter!

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    5. Besides, in the UK, grandparents are not always part of the solution as you may have to move to a new city to take up a job offer. Thus many young parents may find themselves living and working in a city that is a good 4 to 5 hour journey away from them and so they only end up seeing the grandparents during public holidays and special dates like birthdays. Again, the theme of love vs duty comes in - I see the way my parents took care of my nephew and I did see a mix of love and duty. My parents did go out of their way to help with my nephew when he was very young, they liked the concept of having that mission, they had a sense of duty as grandparents and I would even go as far as to say I think that was the closest thing to love I ever saw them express - my parents certainly don't love each other, they fight so much amongst themselves. They only got married out of a sense of duty to have a family as they were culturally conditioned to do so and settle for someone willing to do that in the same spirit, any concept of love or even liking each other was abstract to them at best. They didn't love their kids but with my nephew, I think I saw some real love even if it was in a rather bizarre form. Boy I have a few stories to tell you about how weird that relationship is but even completely autistic grandparents are capable of loving their grandchildren. However, they did use that excuse to treat my sister and her husband really badly - it was fucking insane how badly they went out of their way to mistreat and just fucking abuse (no other word for it) my sister and her husband because they took care of my nephew. Given the way your in-laws have been behaving and from what I have seen from my own parents, I say, it is certainly NOT worth it for all the child care in the world. It may benefit your future child in some way but the price you pay for would be too high. My sister is just too Chinese, too brainwashed to avoid that. It's not too late for you to avoid that same mistake. I'm lucky enough to have the guts to say, "fuck this shit, I'm leaving Singapore to get away from your toxic bullshit." You can do that too.

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    6. Allow me to make this point please: my sister went down the route of roping in the grandparents to take her of her son whilst she was a young mother and I think that was a massive mistake. Don't get me wrong - did my parents love their grandson? Yes they did. They they take care of him for long hours? Yes they did. Did they benefit from the process? Yes they did - it delayed my father's death by at least 15-20 years. By the time he retired, he was spending his days staring blankly at the TV for 8 hours a day waiting to die - like literally, I was surprised he didn't commit suicide as his life was that loveless, empty and vapid. Then when my nephew came along, there was a new lease of life in him, he had a purpose in life and it did him wonders. The same can be said about my mother.

      However, did my parents do a good job taking care of my nephew? Hell no. They were a car crash as far as I was concerned. I remember watching in utter horror as my mother was teaching my nephew broken English as my mother is uneducated and quite frankly, really fucking stupid. There's no other way to describe her without using the word fucking, like calling her stupid is like saying oh the sun is a just a little bit hot. No, she is really fucking stupid. Yet she was entrusted to baby sit my nephew and teach him stuff and I'm like, good grief - could you have found a more fucking stupid retard to fuck up his early education?!?! They were setting such a bad example for him in so many aspects of his life and it came to a point where my sister realized her mistake but it was too late to say, we're just gonna visit you at the weekends for dinner. My parents saw spending time with their grandson as their fundamental human right. So whilst they enjoyed the process, they were such fucking awful grandparents they did far more harm than good. I said to my sister they would have been a lot better off simply caring for a pet like a dog, at least if they fucked up, the worst case scenario is that the dog dies but you don't want my fucking stupid parents fucking my my nephew's early life. My sister is way too old (she's in her 50s) to break free from that fucking awful Asian culture but Ahelia, it is still not too late for you to cut all ties with your awful in-laws and if anyone wants to judge you for doing that, well then that's your cue to tell them to go fuck themselves with a massive cactus. With family like that, who needs enemies? Life is too short, if family members are fucking toxic, cut them out of your life already!

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    7. Thanks Alex for sharing more about the immigration system and Choaniki's case study. My husband and I have flirted with the idea at different times, but we don't have that firm sense of determination yet. While I have lived in a Western country (US) for a few years, my husband has not, and for now he prefers Singapore.

      We have been keeping a distance with my in-laws; they haven't stepped foot into our house since the incident nor do they know much of what goes on in our daily lives. The weekly dinners are mostly a formality, passed in bouts of awkward silence and concluded within less than an hour. However, after hearing what you said about your parents (and how they deal with your sister, her husband and your nephew), I'm even more convinced my in-laws should play no part in childcare.

      "Boy I have a few stories to tell you about how weird that relationship is but even completely autistic grandparents are capable of loving their grandchildren." -> Really? I'm baffled at how they can love their grandchildren, but not their children. I'm saying this because my in-laws didn't love my husband and treated their eldest son like a trophy. Whenever he did well, they would brag to everyone about him and claim credit for themselves. When he didn't, they'll erupt in rage and physically abuse him... So naturally I thought, will they treat their grandchildren as trophies too? Ways to feel good about themselves, boost their fragile egos and comfort themselves that they're not utter failures at every single thing?

      I think my MIL is very much like your mother in their stupidity. I can now see why she was so depressed over my miscarriage; her life is empty and vapid, and she wanted a grandchild to fill that void. Yes, entrusting a child's early education to them will indeed be a train wreck, despite their good intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions... These boundaries should be enforced from day 1: No babysitting whatsoever. Any minimal time or contact with them (if any, in the first place) must be closely supervised.

      (Random anecdote about arranged marriages: My in-laws tried to matchmake my husband with one low IQ girl, who seemed so nice, filial and dutiful. Their ideal DIL is one that will suffer in silence no matter how much abuse is hurled at her, one that will be good to them in their old age. My husband wouldn't take any of their nonsense. Years later, word came round that the nice-girl act that the girl put up was all a facade; she had on multiple times attacked her own husband who is now in the midst of divorcing her. When they heard the news, they just continued defending her, "oh but she is so nice and sweet to us!" I can't help but think how my husband's life would be utterly ruined if he caved to the pressure. Thankfully, unlike me, he is extremely disagreeable.)

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    8. Hi there Jo-Ahelia, allow me to explain how my parents could love my nephew so much. I don't doubt that the love is genuine, but love can be one way with low expectations. Think about how a young child is given a puppy, the kid squeal, "the puppy is so cute, I love this puppy!" That love is instant, the puppy has not done anything yet to earn that love, yet that love is given in abundance instantly, without any conditions. Whether or not this kid continues to love the puppy is another story (like would the kid wake up early every morning to take the dog out for a walk, even when it is pouring with rain etc) but as humans, we are capable of giving love mostly because we are lonely people. We crave a sense of connection to others, so in the case of my parents, yeah their lives were vapid, empty, loveless, my father was waiting for death to come and it was the concept of a grandchild they fell in love with. It gave them renewed purpose and meaning in life - it went well for a few years when my nephew was very young and their expectations were low. But by the time my nephew was in secondary school, he had outgrown the awkward grandparents who had no idea what the heck he is going through with the modern world - there was an incident involving Instagram and my parents are not on the internet, they're too uneducated to use the internet and you wanna try explaining to them what Instagram is? The older my nephew got, the less involved they became and the less they understood about what happened with his life - naturally, they grew further and further apart. My nephew is now in NS and they don't even talk anymore; so you can see how superficial that 'love' is. I have always said that they should get a pet like a nice cute dog, so they can shower that pet with plenty of love if that's what it takes to give them a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

      Love is a 2-way street, it's not like me saying, "I like plenty of wasabi on my sushi", that's me having a one way relationship with wasabi, the wasabi doesn't have to love me back or react to my love. Even though we barely know each other, there's still a genuine desire on my part to want to provide you with some much needed empathy and understanding, so we can support each other. That process is certainly a 2-way street. Whereas with my parents and their 'love' for my nephew, that's more like me liking wasabi - it's a one way relationship. Heck, apart from wasabi, I can like a famous person like the singer Kate Bush (oh how I love Running Up That Hill) but I have never met her and I don't expect her to love me back in any way, shape or form. But that still doesn't stop me from enjoying myself immensely when I listen to her amazing music and singing along with it, feeling every emotion in the songs. With my parents, it was a one-way relationship with my nephew when he was quite young, then when he became older in his teenage years, they started bitching about him - about how he is unfilial and doesn't care about anyone but himself, blah blah blah. And I thought, okay that all fell apart when you were no longer prepared to offer him one-way love (the way I love Kate Bush) and you wanted a real relationship with him.

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    9. As for your husband and the matter of living abroad, heck my family used to scoff at the idea of me even studying in the UK because of the same reason, "but you've never lived abroad! How the hell are you going to adapt to a whole new culture without us taking care of you?!" But the moment I got the scholarship to study here, they had to watch me go as there was no holding me back and I knew from a young age I had to get away from my parents, one way or another to protect myself from their toxic nature. As for your husband, let's put it this way: let's imagine that there's a lovely wild fruit in the British countryside called Coolberry. Your husband has never tasted it before as it is not available in Singapore but it doesn't mean he wouldn't like it - if he was given the chance to taste Coolberry, he would probably say, "oh the flavour is so incredible, I love it!" There's a difference between, "yucks I hate the taste of Coolberry, it is disgusting, I don't like it" and "I've never had Coolberry before. I have no idea what it tastes like." I'm putting it to you that it is the latter, not the former.

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