Alex: Let me begin on an optimistic note: I'd like to think that Singapore is a modern city where few people would bat an eyelid if a local woman dates a guy from another country - why not? Look, my dad's Hakka and my mum's Hokkien - my mother go such grief from her mother-in-law because my father had the audacity to defy his parents' wishes and marry someone who wasn't Hakka. That's the kind of ignorance and bigotry that existed back in the 1960s when my parents got married - they didn't object to my mother because she had done something wrong, no! It was purely on the basis of the fact that she wasn't Hakka (even though she is still Chinese). I'm sure even that kind of discrimination would make even the most racist person on that forum think, "well actually, that's really going a bit too far, aren't you all still Chinese?"
Ms Chua: Yes. Allow me to share a story, this time in the 1990s - this Chinese lady I knew was dating a Indian man from work, they were both Singaporeans and eventually she felt compelled to end the relationship because she knew inside her heart that her parents would never be happy if she married an Indian man, that life would be so much easier if she married a Chinese man. So she put her feelings aside, ended the relationship and married a Chinese man instead - now she has to look back for the rest of her life and think, what if she had followed her heart and married the Indian man she truly loved instead of simply trying to please her parents? It's really sad as I knew how that tore her up, it messed her up for a while. You see, even in that case, I'm sure many Singaporeans on that forum would have even encouraged this Singaporean woman to stay with her Indian boyfriend regardless of what her parents thought, if they were truly in love.
Ms Chua: It seems that many of the locals have made the following assumptions: that this woman is a gold digger after a rich white sugar daddy and that white men generally have bigger penises than local Singaporeans. Let's deal with that first: if Liz was purely a gold digger, if her priority was to find a rich sugar daddy, then she would have not be after European guys, no she would be after rich guys of any skin colour. I don't even believe for a moment that she is after a sugar daddy - this is an assumption that many Singaporeans still make, that the only reason why an Asian woman would want to date a white guy is for money Now that may be the kind of thing that happens in Thailand or the Philippines, where you see a 70 year old white guy with a 21 year old girlfriend holding hands on the beach and somehow even I am not convinced that's true love. But wait a minute, these Singaporeans are assuming she is after money and accusing her of barking up the wrong tree because some white people are poor - where do we even begin to unpick that mess? The reason why I can imagine so many Singaporeans jump to that conclusion is because they generally feel poorer than the average white expatriate they see in Singapore and this is more a reflection of the unease and dissatisfaction they feel about the situation whereby local men are at a massive disadvantage, being saddled with CPF, NS and reservist commitments, whilst the expatriates have no such strings attached. So yes, the locals are struggling in this unfair system.
Alex: Well, I live in London and I see white people working as bus drivers, cleaning toilets, working in fast food restaurants and yeah, there are plenty of poor white people here in the West. But in Singapore, they tend to be mostly richer expats with nice jobs, earning quite a lot of money there, living in nice condos, enjoying a good lifestyle. Can I just state that there's usually a poor correlation between skin colour and wealth here in the UK, whether you are rich or poor depends far more on the social class of your parents. Thus poor people in the UK tend not to work abroad as expats.
Alex: So let me ask you an important question, what is the current status of women's rights in Singapore? You have a female president, there are plenty of women in politics and business. On the surface, it does look like a very modern society where women are highly educated, empowered, have good jobs and it is a far cry from some of our Asian neighbours - yet when you look at the way such blatant misogyny and sexism is expressed in such forums, is Singapore really as backward as a lot of these other Asian countries where women's rights are heavily repressed? Is really Singapore a sexist, misogynistic society or a very modern, progressive society where women's rights are concerned?
Alex: There's that interesting story from Kharkiv, Ukraine of a Chinese man called Mei Aisi who moved to Ukraine for his studies, married a beautiful local woman and is now extremely successful there now, running a hugely profitable import-export business. He's celebrated as a success story in China but most of the fascination boils down to the fact that his wife Daria - an opera singer - is a tall, blonde and very attractive woman. Even Mei admits that most people in China are shocked because he isn't considered particularly good looking by Chinese standards and he wasn't a roaring success back home in China. Yet he is now celebrated as some kind of hero as other Chinese men were lining up to beg him to help them find beautiful Eastern European girlfriends. He has even started a dating agency specifically to help rich Chinese men find beautiful Eastern European brides. There doesn't seem to be any kind of judgement on the part of Mei - most people who stumble upon his story would just think, "that's incredible, good for you mate, well done - your wife is so beautiful." Yet when you turn this around, when you get a Chinese woman wishing to date a European guy, goodness me, the amount of hate Liz encountered was unreal - contrast this to Mei, who didn't encounter such hatred at all on Chinese social media. Interestingly, the language spoken by the women in the video is actually Russian, not Ukrainian.
Ms Chua: Whether Liz is that educated or successful is quite irrelevant, the fact that she wants to date a white guy has already made her a target for this resentment that the local Singaporean men have towards local women. Oh we are looking at a very Singaporean problem indeed and it is clear to see how we ended up in this situation in the first place: the term that would be familiar with a lot of Singaporeans is 重男轻女 - that is a phrase that captures the attitude of the Chinese family always showing favour to the sons over the daughters. So if a family had a son and a daughter but could only afford to send one to university, it would always be the son who went because he was expected to become a breadwinner, to have to bring up a family whilst the daughter didn't really need that degree as much as she always had the option of becoming a housewife if she married a rich man. This would even be the case if the daughter was a lot more intelligent than the son in that family and yes it sounds utterly ridiculous and unfair - but such is Chinese culture for you. However, in this day and age, fortunately, at least when it comes to education, women in Singapore are not discriminated against by the system (though they may still face the scourge of 重男轻女 at home). Fifty years ago, men were indeed more educated and successful than women in Singapore, but that is clearly no longer the case: this is a big step forward for gender equality but where does that leave Singaporean men looking for a bride who is less educated and less successful than them? Looking at the responses on that forum, they're not in a happy place and are very bitter.
Ms Chua: The main issue here is fear: they look at the abuse that Liz is getting and they worry that they become the next target, they are just plain scared. I have seen the kind of abuse Liz is getting - even that picture of her standing on that bridge, she looks like a pretty ordinary, average Singaporean woman of her age yet all those abusive comments of her being fat and overweight are ridiculous. Look, if I saw a woman being attacked in the street, I'd do something - I'd call the police, I'll scream for help, I'll alert someone, I'll do something because I know that if I don't do anything, then I would not be able to live with myself should something horrible happen to that woman, right? But in those online forums, there are other people there and you think, I am not the only witness to this tirade of abuse, surely there are moderators, surely there are others who must do something about this situation and somehow, because it is not happening in front of you but in cyberspace, it feels less real and they don't want to speak up. And of course, maybe someone did speak up by alerting the moderators because the last thing you want to do is to feed the trolls by arguing with them - the same way if I saw a woman being attacked, I would call the police or get a stronger person to help resolve such a difficult situation.
Alex: I do wonder what these trolls calling her fat would look like in real life. I wonder if some of them are indeed really ugly and disgusting, like they may be morbidly obese or something - but yet they still default to calling Liz fat because they are simply not capable of coming up with more sophisticated way to engage her on the issue of dating white people.
Alex: So this forum HWZ is a wholly owned by Singapore Press Holdings. Should we be holding them to account when this kind of cyber bullying happens? So if they want to make money off this website, then the buck stops with them?
Ms Chua: Given the volume of posts on that forum, it is impossible for them to keep track of everything that is being said. Instead they will merely respond to complaints, if someone raises something to their attention. But no, even if you drive people away from this forum, they'll just find another website to vent their hate speech and such is the internet for you. But you've made the assumption that most people attacking Liz are frustrated Singaporean men and the women are just standing by quietly condoning all this - did it occur to you that women could be amongst those attacking Liz as well?
Ms Chua: Perhaps you're assuming that all women are supportive of each other, that we're all part of this sisterhood of women united by our ovaries - but nothing could be further from the truth. Just because we're of the same gender doesn't mean that somehow we all magically get along. Women are divided along other lines like social class, religion or our cultural backgrounds. There could be Singaporean women out there in who don't think it is right for Liz to only want to date white men, that perhaps the photos she posted on Tinder were inappropriate or maybe they are just against the whole idea of looking for love, fun and sex online in the first place. I've heard older Singaporean women being highly suspicious of such apps because they think that the ease to find a match would turn ordinary people into horny bed-hopping sluts as they can easily find sex partners online - there are a lot of misconceptions when it comes to online dating apps in general and if you were brought up by parents who had those views, then maybe you would automatically jump to the wrong conclusion to a woman who has a profile on Tinder. Women get jealous of each other, maybe a woman could be jealous of Liz's looks or her 'freedom' to do what the hell she wants. Or maybe they are just very frustrated with their own problems and are looking to vent their anger on a complete stranger - it happens, unfortunately.
Alex: I can see that happening in a society like Singapore where everyone is made to conform and follow the rules. Let me share with you a story from my army days. Everyone had to follow very strict rules when it came to having everything ready for those military exercises - every section had a strict list of things we had to complete before the deadline, missing one of your targets would lead to disciplinary actions. You know, we would forgo sleeping, even eating just to work to those very strict deadlines, to make sure we would not let anyone down. So there was this one section where they were a bit lazy, they didn't have everything ready in time and they had made quite a few mistakes but the commander in charge was so very busy that he didn't notice their errors and they thought, phew we got away with it. However, a guy from another section noticed what happened and went to the commander to report what had happened.
Alex: Exactly and because of the snitch, that section who didn't complete all their tasks in time were punished. Now did the snitch have anything to gain from his actions? No, not really, apart from a sense of 'justice'. I suppose the mentality was like, "hey everyone one else followed the difficult rules and delivered on time, why should that one section get to break the rules and get away with it? No it is not fair, they need to be punished or else the rules are meaningless." That is the mentality of people who do conform - they expect others to do the same. I can see the amount of ludicrous expectations put on Asian women in Singaporean society, a lot of women do conform and follow the rules out of fear of reprisal or punishment, but I can imagine that some of them would be quite unhappy about the situation. So by the same token, I can imagine a really repressed Singaporean woman going, "hey plenty of the other Singaporean women out there conformed to society's expectations of them and we all followed the rules, why should Liz get to ignore the rules and get away with it? Would my father have allowed me to even use a dating app like Tinder, never mind date a white guy? No way, my father would have totally killed me or disowned me - so if I wasn't allowed to do it, neither can Liz - let's punish her". By that token, the people heaping abuse on Liz could well be female - so, am I along the right lines here?
Ms Chua: Yes, pretty much. I'm afraid that comes with the territory, when you live in society which places so much importance on conforming, on following the rules - imagine this: if a white woman in London put on her Tinder profile that she would only date Asian guys or black guys, would there be any kind of backlash or would nobody even bat an eyelid?
Ms Chua: Oh but it was also about how his parents would have reacted to her. There were problems from both sides.
Alex: So what will happen if you were to walk down Orchard Road with a white guy, holding hands, like it was really obvious that you two were dating and kissed in public. Would there be any kind of negative reaction? Or would Singaporeans not be confrontational, even if they didn't like what they saw, they would mind their own business?
Ms Chua: It depends on the white guy! If I walked down the street with someone who looked like American actor Matt Barr, then people might wonder what he sees in a plain looking woman like me! Some might get jealous that I have such a good looking man. But if I was with a man old enough to be my dad, someone old and creepy, fat and wrinkly like...
Ms Chua: (laughs) We're really scrapping the bottom of the barrel here are we? Oh what Melania would think. Okay, fair enough, say I was walking down Orchard Road with someone like Trump. Yeah then people will think I am either a gold digger or worse, a prostitute. But that's quite an extreme. But generally in Singapore, people won't harass you in real life - say if one of my colleagues at work announced that she was dating a white guy, then the rest of us would mostly just keep our opinions to ourselves because whom she dates, what she does in bed quite frankly, is none of our business, you know? But this is also depends on which section of Singaporean society you're talking about: where I work, we have a very international office, we deal with clients from all over the world, we go on business trips quite often and it's no big deal to be good friends with someone who's from another country - we have the confidence and the ability to overcome whatever language or cultural barriers to build those relationships and unlike you, I don't work in sales but even in my role, I am lucky to be in an environment that nurtures me well and builds my confidence to deal with the wider world.
Then we contrast it to someone like my mother, she is retired now and she used to work in a small shop in Toa Payoh. She didn't speak much English but it didn't matter - between Mandarin, Hokkien, Malay and bits of Singlish, she was able to serve practically everyone who came into her shop. The one day an Indian man came into the shop and he didn't speak Malay, he tried to speak to her in English and my mother just couldn't understand what the hell he was asking. She struggled on, trying to help him find what he was looking for but it was hopeless! Luckily, I then turned up after school and offered to help translate for her. My mother was so relieved when she saw me. This man wasn't even like a white European you know, he was a local Indian guy who didn't speak Malay, his English sounded distinctively Singaporean - like how many non-Malay Singaporeans actually speak Malay fluently? So for people like my mother of the older generation, or even just for Singaporeans who work in an environment like my mother who never ever encounter or have to deal with foreigners, then yeah it could be a bit of a shock for them if someone they knew was dating a foreigner. Because I am surrounded by foreigners all the time at work, it doesn't faze me quite the same way it would totally faze someone like my mother, but that's just stating the obvious. You can't treat Singaporeans as if they're a monolithic entity.
Ms Chua: Not necessarily so but clearly, they would be the ones most uncomfortable with a local woman wishing to date a white foreigner. This is what upsets me about this case: who cares who Liz chooses to date? What if she said on her Tinder profile, "I don't like short guys, do not contact me if you're below 180 cm tall." That would exclude the vast majority of Singaporean men who are not that tall, would that have caused offence quite the same way? No of course not - because women have the right to choose whom they date. There is a massive difference between say school refusing to admit students on the basis of their skin colour and a woman choosing not to date a certain kind of people: as an education institution, the school has a responsibility towards the general public whereas whom Liz chooses to date or have sex with is entirely a private matter for her and only her. It is really nobody's business and nobody has any right to attack her over such personal information like that. It says a lot more about the people attacking her than the Liz herself.
Alex: This was information she put on her Tinder profile - it's not like she was posting some anti-Asian comments on a blog or on social media. I would have thought that if a man saw a profile like hers, the logical and sensible thing to do would be to skip the profile rather than take rejection so personally that this man would go to the extent of raging a cyber-war and driving so much hatred towards her. All this over her Tinder profile? Geez, perhaps it's because I am a salesman, you know, I don't let rejection bother me. Some of us are more thick skinned than others and if you can't handle the rejection you get on Tinder, then I say, stay the hell away from those dating apps as you can't expect everyone whom you like to respond to you. I do wonder what is wrong with some people, like do they have an over-inflated ego that somehow makes them think they are totally irresistible on these dating apps? So this woman doesn't wanna date you, that's no big deal, just find someone who does - why put so much effort into punishing a woman for not liking you? If it was just one weirdo kicking up a big fuss over a rejection then fair enough - but to see so many people join in and attack Liz over this, that's paints a very disturbing picture about Singaporeans. Like that veneer of decorum is paper thin, they just can't wait to turn into an blood-thirsty, angry mob, even over something as vapid and silly as Tinder.
Alex: That's what we call a self-fulfilling prophesy. She didn't want to date local men and the local men should their ugly side in the way they reacted, ironically justifying her original decision. But there was no attempt on their part to try to change her mind you know, she even appeared briefly in the forum. But no one engaged her, well you know what the people are like there - half the time I don't even understand the broken English they post in. Like if your English is so bad, please post in Chinese - at least I can read Chinese without trying to work out what the hell they're trying to say in English. People were just heaping abuse at her - that's pretty vile. Unfortunately, she made a mistake in trying to reason with people who were not prepared to be reasonable with her. She has her issues with Singaporean men, she has her reasons why she doesn't want to date Singaporean men - that's all fine, but why bother sharing that with a baying mob who hate you? Did she think she could change their minds and get them to see her point of view? Hell no, that was never going to happen. She should have just left them alone, let them get bored and move on to something else - after all, these people have a very short attention span and they will find something else to vent their anger on within a few hours.
Ms Chua: What's next for Liz? What do you think is her best revenge on these people? What will give her justice?
Ms Chua: Actually neither, let me explain. Those who already want to date white guys will not be dissuaded by this incident and those who were never going to date a white guy are not going to change their minds after this, though this will prompt them to be more aware about choosing their partners a bit more carefully. Of course, let's be fair: not all Singaporean men are misogynistic and sexist - but no Singaporean woman in the right mind would want to date a man who had the audacity to speak like that to a woman, like if that's the way he thinks, how do you think he will treat you in the relationship when he is projecting all his insecurities on you? There are horrible men in every country and unfortunately, this forum seems to have been a magnet for the very worst in Singapore. The women who are SPGs were probably already dreaming of marrying a white guy from the time they were in their early teens, it is an attraction towards an entire culture probably built on certain elements of that culture they are particularly attracted to. That makes them narrow their search for a partner down to people from a certain geographical area. Likewise, let's not be sexist - there are Asian men who do date white women as well, although yes they are more rare. If you are going to date someone from another country, I think mentally, you're already prepared for the obstacles that could possibly come your way - yes it is something you will anticipate it. Though most people would be more concern about bridging the cultural gap with your partner and their family and friends, rather than having to deal with this kind of extreme hatred from your own people.
Ms Chua: And good luck to Liz. Don't let the haters get you down.
This is the first and only comment this topic. Everyone is free to date whoever they want. With regards to Singaporean women, everyone is free to date them since i wouldn't touch most with a 10 foot pole. I got flack from some Singaporean girl the other day at work for saying that Singaporean women were materialistic. She countered that she doesn't need a man and can afford to "buy" one (whatever that was supposed to mean). At least the Mainlanders and Taiwanese i talk to are more frank about it. The locals are just in denial of their materialism.
ReplyDeleteOoooh. I think you're asking for trouble by making such an accusation: I don't doubt that you have encountered some materialistic Singaporean women personally Choaniki, but to claim that they are all materialistic because some of those you have met are? That's anecdotal evidence - you don't want to base any kind of argument on that. Besides, you're married - why should you care what Singaporean single ladies want?
DeleteOk some context and clarification in case i get flamed by all the readers. We were chatting about some topic and before i made the offhand remark that Singaporean women were materialistic. But then that applies to both genders and i didn't use the word all. Singapore is a materialistic society and that is the product of our inculcation, no two ways about it. It is stereotypical, but no smoke without fire, as the saying goes.
DeleteAs for why i care about what local ladies want, I don't today, but that me speaking 10 years ago when i was still a globetrotting single. The SPG phenomenon is not a recent thing and i think the exposure and ease of internet dating has only increased the frequency of occurrence.
Can I reflect that the 'materialism' is tied to the very old fashioned concept that a woman must marry up and a man must marry down? So you'll never get a wife who's earning more than the husband in Singapore because the man will never agree to marry a woman who earns more than him (as discussed above in the piece). So this concept has been around forever, long before the internet came along.
DeleteBut yeah the world is changing, internet dating apps are here to stay.
Women marrying up is not an Asian thing as it happens in the Western world too. They call it hypergamy and in this case it is the women who refuse to marry someone poorer or more uneducated than her. She keeps on moping that there are no good men left and end up an eternal spinster. In fact the Guardian love to feature these women in their articles.
ReplyDeleteYes that's true, it is a thing here in the West of course. My simple solution to this is to look beyond your local population for someone who is just right for you. So the women who 'mope that there are no good men left' are in this position because they are unwilling to look further afield - the world is a big place with 7.6 billion people. And are these women seriously claiming there are no good men left when say there are about 3.8 billion men to choose from? That's ludicrous.
DeleteI'm projecting now, but those single women are probably where they are because they can't find a rich and handsome guy stupid enough to settle for their wrinkly old ass.
DeleteExhibit 1 (many more where that came from)-
https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/06/all-by-myself-the-joys-of-being-single-christina-patterson
Akan datang: I will be doing a part two and this will form part of the piece in part 2. It will be a tricky issue that I will discuss with Ms Chua.
Delete@Sandra - there's nothing wrong with these women choosing to remain single rather than compromising and settling down. I have met women who haven't met their ideal man and after they turn 40, they decide okay, I'll focus on myself and my career instead of going down that path of marriage & family. They tend to be a lot happier than those who compromised and married out of fear of being left on the shelf rather than love. More on this in my follow up. Part 2, akan datang. I do agree with you and I think Choaniki is coming across as quite sexist.
DeleteMore on this in my part 2 to this topic. Akan datang. :)
DeleteQuite typical for a misogynist to display no logic in his argument. It is okay for him to say women deserve to be unwanted if they have old wrinkly asses, but when a woman refuses to marry a man poorer than her suddenly he finds it oh-so-triggering? Also he can't stand it when people disagree with him that not all Singaporeans (men or women) are materialistic? You can never make a statement like "all x are y", so exactly what is there to be angry?
DeleteMarrying rich is a practical concept. Nothing wrong about that. Man or woman, you want the best catch in the ocean. You can easily love a rich person as you would a poor person. If I were to marry again, I'm marrying crazy rich or not bother at all.
ReplyDeleteAs for that woman getting negative comments for wanting to find a European man, if she is reading this, I say: Do what you want, girl! Those people are probably insecure in their lives. They have to find bring someone down to prop themselves up.
Can I just point out something please? Many of us tend to get married around our 20s and 30s, rather than our 40s and 50s. But it is not in our 20s and 30s that we start to make big bucks, that's kinda young - even if you did have a good career, you'll still be relatively junior then. I'm speaking as someone who is 42 now and earning pretty good money, a lot more than in my 20s which is clearly logical of course.
DeleteSo I guess it's more a question of picking someone who is well-educated and embarking on a good career path that can prove to be v lucrative in about 10-20 years. Bet on a winning horse!
Good point. 20s is kind of young to get married though, but to each his/her own. Definitely look for someone with potential and no baggage. By baggage, I mean in-laws who are hapless dependants or step-children or health or emotional issues. A good education with the potential to make money is absolutely essential.
DeleteAt my age, though, you had better be crazy rich already with no baggage. Not that I'm such a great catch myself. I'm saying if I can't snare a decent rich guy, I would rather stay single. Seriously, I see my girlfriends who are in their 40s and 50s taking on men in the same age category but with baggage. Still, I have to say it's not my business. Whatever makes people happy. I can only speak for myself.
Disclaimer: I have no plans to write off my husband. We married young and poor. 29 years ago!
Definitely look for someone well-educated with the potential to make money enough to support the life style you envision. Look at Mrs. Zuckerberg. She snared a winning horse and that pot of gold right at Harvard! Kate Middleton's mother made sure her daughter attended the same university as William. That investment in tuition paid off big time. All brilliant women.
DeleteIn the case of Kate Middleton, Prince William has inherited wealth so he was rich the moment he was born. But in Zuckerberg, yeah he made his wealth. Sure it would be great to marry someone who already has family wealth, but someone like Zuckerberg is a self-made man and even more impressive IMHO. But indeed, Zuckerberg got married before he got crazy rich, hence she did bet on a winning horse.
DeleteAaaah small technical detail: they got married in 2012, Facebook was already big then. But they had met in 2003 at Harvard, a year before Facebook was launched. So she did bet on the right horse on that first date, even though I daresay she did well as he's got looks, brains & money. The complete set.
Deletehttps://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4621125
ReplyDeleteStumbled upon this today and it was related so there's that. Take with dose of salt, and in case you're wondering that is not me posting as an alt.
Actually that was a very interesting read!
DeleteApplies to men as well. You want to be the best version of yourself --- accomplishments, looks, health. Not just to snare a rich partner, but for your own self-esteem.
ReplyDeleteThe writer is practical. However, I wouldn't have quit my job just yet.
Actually Do, unless I'm living in a Korean or Taiwanese drama world, poor handsome men snagging a rich women seldom happens so I would say that as much a we men want the option to improve our looks and health etc to share a rich partner, this option is more feasible for women.
DeleteBut you want to be the best version of yourself for yourself first and foremost. If the man can't snare a crazy rich woman, he can at least attract a similarly accomplished woman (or man!) who is upwardly mobile.
DeleteBut you still want to be the best version of yourself just for YOU. Even if no crazy rich woman will go for the man, he can attract an upwardly mobile woman. Or stay single, living well.
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