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| Can you get past the gatekeepers? |
Who is a gatekeeper?
A gatekeeper is typically someone in the HR department who is the first person you will encounter when applying for a job. If a company is small and doesn't have a dedicated HR department, then the gatekeeper may be a senior manager in the department which is taking on the new staff. The gatekeeper will be the one receiving the many applications and making the crucial decision as to whom gets invited for an interview and most important, who gets rejected at the first hurdle. Of course application processes do vary from company to company, so some gatekeepers may choose to have a friendly chat with the applicants on the phone before deciding if they should be invited for an interview or not. The key thing to note about gatekeepers is that whilst they are important as they have the right to reject you, they are unable to grant you the job - that is a power that they don't have, only the decision maker can have that power but gatekeepers will never tell you that. I would say that gatekeepers are pretty tricky to handle as it is always very easy for them to say no to a candidate - imagine if a company is recruiting for a good position and the gatekeeper receives 100 applications, whilst the decision maker has time to really only consider say about 5 very credible candidates. That means the gatekeeper has to say no to 95% of the applicants, don't take it personally!
Who is a decision maker?
A decision maker will always be someone very high up in the company - an MD, CEO or at least a director in a division. Normally, only those who get past the gatekeeper can get to meet the decision maker. Because the decision maker is usually a very busy person. s/he will delegate an important part of the selection process to the gatekeeper, so you know the gatekeeper has the trust of the decision maker. The relationship between the decision maker and the gatekeeper is a complex one because in most cases, the gatekeeper will simply filter the masses of applications, conduct initial tests and interviews then present a (very short) shortlist to the decision maker for the final selection. The final decision is never taken by the gatekeeper, even though s/he may have some influence on the final decision. The gatekeeper would usually take a step back when it comes to the final decision between s/he doesn't want to be held responsible should the decision maker hires someone who turns out to be totally unsuitable for the job and has to quit after a few weeks/months. Remember, you need to understand the difference between the two: a gatekeeper has the right to say 'no' to a candidate but only the decision maker has the right to say 'yes' - so that is the key difference.
Potentially, anyone could potentially be your guide as long as they are in the right place and the right time and they are 'nice' - thus a guide is a helpful person who will point you in the right direction. Imagine if you are on holiday, in a city far away and you stop a man in the street to ask for directions. The moment that man gives you helpful information, he is effectively functioning like a tourist guide. The same principle applies when you apply for a job with a company - anyone could potential be like that helpful man in the street you ask for directions. A guide may come in many forms and it is up to you to find your guide. You cannot stand in the middle of a crowded street, look lost and hope for someone to come to your rescue when you need directions - you have to go to someone whom you think looks approachable and say, "excuse me sir, I'm looking for the train station, can you tell me where it is please?" If you don't do that, people will generally assume that you're okay, mind their own business and leave you alone. The principle is basically, if you don't ask for help, you're not going to get it - so what have you got to lose by asking for help? The worst that can happen is that the person you approached is unwilling/unable to help - just say thank you and move on.
Meet "auntie Carol" the guide.
Let me give you an example: in a company I used to work for, there was an admin lady type office manager character who used to welcome the candidates who came for interviews. Let's call her auntie Carol (not her real name). She was helpful and friendly but it was pretty obvious that she was neither the decision maker nor the gatekeeper. She played a small part in the recruitment process as she was the one who scheduled interviews and met candidates when they arrived. Many candidates ignored her, some practically dismissed her as the admin lady who did the photocopying, made the coffee for the boss and answered the phone. However, the smarter ones recognized her 'guide' potential and asked her questions about the company and the interview process, there was really nothing to stop Carol from volunteering that information and having worked for the company a long time, she knew practically all the answers to those questions. Some candidates even followed up with phone calls to Carol to ask her questions like, "could you tell me how long I have to wait before I chase them up for a decision? Should I email the guy who interviewed me or should I hold off for a few days yet? Have they already chosen someone else?" In short, Carol was the kind stranger in the street who would be more than willing to help you - but she wasn't going to volunteer that help unless you asked her for it. When you do ask, be polite - you're asking her for a favour, people like Carol are not obliged to help you.
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| Don't be afraid to ask for help. |
How much difference can someone like auntie Carol make?
Loads. Oh loads. For example, if you asked auntie Carol for tips, she would check if you have read the company's website, if you are familiar with the company's history, the company's key products and services - you would be surprised how many young candidates neglect to do that basic step. My impression is that they are often so full of themselves they expect the gatekeeper to be interested in them when really, they should be showing interest in the company they want to work for. I am shocked at just how many candidates know precious little about the company they hope to work for! That would be the perfect excuse for me to reject someone, but if they were smart enough to realize how important that was by asking auntie Carol, she would give them a company brochure for them to look through so they would at least have the key facts just before the interview and that would be enough for them to get through that aspect of the interview. We are not expecting the candidates to memorize things like the name of the company's founder or the specifics of certain products/services, just some evidence of genuine interest in the company. It's not about how impressive you are as a candidate, it is about how suitable you are for the job.
Shouldn't you as a gatekeeper have discouraged auntie Carol from helping inept candidates?
Actually, no. I don't have a problem with that! I like candidates who are not afraid to ask for help and I detest those who are so arrogant and proud they assume they don't need help. Everyone needs help, I need help, I know my job today can be so much easier if people are nice to me and offer help. I am not afraid to ask for help the moment I recognize that someone could be a potential 'guide' to me. So if a candidate is smart enough to ask auntie Carol for help, well that works in their favour because I would have done the same thing. I would often go over to auntie Carol and ask her for her opinion too because she gives me really useful feedback - so always treat everyone you encounter in the process with the utmost respect, including the 'auntie Carol's of this world. If someone can breeze through the process without asking auntie Carol for help, that's fine - but there's no shame in asking someone like her for help especially since I'm not going to offer any help. It is almost part of the test as well - I want to see if the candidate is smart enough to identify potential 'guides' and people who do are usually have good 'soft skills' in persuading others to give them a hand. I detest those who are oh so arrogant that they think they never need help, that they have all the solutions.
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| Knowing how to get the help you need is a great skill! |
Can a person play more than one role in this process?
Yes, that is entirely possible. Gatekeepers could be guides too - you could encounter a kind gatekeeper who is more than willing to give you some help when you ask for it - but such gatekeepers are rare as their job is to eliminate most of the applicants from the process rather than help them achieve their goals of getting their dream jobs. However, this is not usually a straightforward process - I have played the role of the gatekeeper as well and I've been helpful to some applicants and mean to others. The ones whom I have help have given me some reason to like them and I tend not to help people I don't like - I'm not obliged to help anyone and it is up to me whom I choose to be nice to. Likewise, in some smaller companies, a decision maker may also play the role of the gatekeeper as well, if there is no one to delegate that role to or if s/he is quite simply the kind of person who likes to micromanage the entire process. Gatekeepers are typically quite unhelpful, but once you have identified whom the decision maker is, s/he may have a kind disposition and could quite easily function as a guide in the process. There could be several people involved in any process, all wearing different hats. When starting any job application process, always be mindful which category you could place the people you encounter into, especially if you suspect that they may wear more than one hat.
How do I know whether I am talking to a gatekeeper or a decision maker?
That's a tough one, gatekeepers would never let on that they don't have the power to say 'yes' - but you don't want to offend a gatekeeper by trying to imply that they are not the decision maker either. A subtle way to do this would be ask a question like, "is there anyone else in your recruitment process who would be looking to test or interview me?" That's an innocent enough question - there's absolutely nothing wrong with a candidate taking interest in the selection process. However, avoid point blank questions like, "do you need to discuss this with someone else?" or "is this your decision?" Some gatekeepers do not like having their authority challenged like that and you don't want to upset them. Instead, you can also pick up subtle hints that there is someone else involved, for example, if the interviewer says, "we generally prefer someone who is quite experienced" instead of "I generally prefer someone who is quite experienced": the former statement indicates that there is a decision maker involved, the latter indicates that you are already speaking to the decision maker. Gatekeepers need to be treated as if they are decision makers as you need them to like you. Also, do your research, most people will have a Linkedin profile and you can see how high they are in the hierarchy within the organization. Someone who isn't at least a director is rather unlikely to be a decision maker.
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| Gatekeeper or decision maker? |
Okay, so I am talking to the gatekeeper and not the decision maker, what should I do?
Patience my friend. The gatekeeper is there only because the decision maker has put him/her there and you have to respect that. Trying to go behind the gatekeeper's back is a terrible idea and there's little to gain by that. Besides, there is a huge risk in doing so as you may approach the wrong person who isn't the right decision maker and end up being referred back to the gatekeeper. When you apply for a job with a company, you're expected to respect their processes, do things their way rather than come and start a revolution, shaking everything up the moment you step through the front door. The key thing for you to note is when you are allowed to meet the decision maker, you need to give the decision maker the kind of respect s/he deserves - do not assume that the gatekeeper has told the decision maker anything. The gatekeeper may have, s/he may not have - you never know. If there is a key point that you need to impress upon the decision maker (eg. "I have worked on a very similar kind of product before"), make sure you tell that to the decision maker in person - do not assume that the gatekeeper would have read your CV and passed that information onto the decision maker. You don't want to be rejected just because the gatekeeper didn't pass that vital piece of information onto the decision maker - do not take any chances, do not make any assumptions!
What other mistakes have you seen candidates make?
Well, apart from ignoring the opportunity for asking auntie Carol for help, the most common mistake I have encountered are candidates who are just so laid back - they come across as if they have a sense of entitlement, like they expect me to woo them like a headhunter, roll out the red carpet and give them a VIP invitation to work for the company. The worst offender was a woman I called Miss "Contact Me If You Want" - rather than send me her CV, she wanted me (the gatekeeper!) to contact her? No, the gatekeeper expects you to do the hard work - gatekeepers are busy people and you have to make a genuine effort, show enthusiasm and originality if you want their attention. You have to be a highly skilled professional in your industry with over ten years' experience before you can expect headhunters to come knocking on your door, inviting you to consider a new job - otherwise, you jolly well approach the gatekeepers humbly and beg them for their attention. There is a huge difference between being confident and being unrealistically arrogant about your prospects, it is always better to err on the side of caution and be quite humble.
Have you ever made a mistake yourself with gatekeepers and decision makers?
Well, let me tell you a story from 2004 when I made a mistake when trying to get a job with a Russian asset management firm. This was one of the more successful Russian companies in this industry and they were opening a rep office in London - I got along really well with guy who was going to head up the new office in London as he was already an existing client of mine at that point. I thought at that point, it was a done deal. I have experience in this industry, Я говорю по-русски and I got along well with the man who would be my new boss. I got through the first interview with flying colours. What went wrong? At the end of that interview, they suggested that I should consider going to Moscow to meet the rest of the team at the head office - I hesitated, made some excuses, claiming that I needed to find the time to do so as I was very busy in my current job (which wasn't a total lie) and suggested doing it by phone or Skype instead. I was actually thinking about cost of flying to Moscow (to interview for a position in London?) - flights, hotels, visas - it was going to be one expensive job interview. Besides, it was summer and Moscow is crazy hot in summer - I would have preferred to have visited Moscow in the cooler months. In the end, the job went to a person who did go to Moscow to meet the decision maker - the gatekeeper did all he could, he told the boss that he "strongly recommended Alex" but the boss chose someone he actually got to meet in person whilst all I did was chat on the phone with him. My mistake? I had assumed that the gatekeeper's recommendation was sufficient to clinch the deal when really, I should have gone to Moscow to meet the decision maker. Hindsight is 2020, of course.
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| I really should have gone to Moscow for the second interview. |
Are all gatekeepers evil, nasty people?
No, far from it. They do have a job that means that they will have to find a reason to say no to the vast majority of candidates when compiling that shortlist for the decision maker to consider, that means they are constantly trying to find fault with every single candidate, searching for a reason to say no. This is not because they are evil or nasty people, but they are merely doing a quality control exercise. Even if every single applicant is of a very high caliber, the gatekeeper cannot turn around and say to the decision maker, "all ten applicants are great, let's hire all of them". The decision maker will say, "we only need one, you know we don't have the budget to hire more than one so let's find the best out of the ten - isn't that what I hired you for? Do your bloody job - find a reason to reject some of them." By that token, as a gatekeeper, I have rejected many excellent candidates in the past simply because we received so many high quality applicants for that one job. Don't shoot the messenger for the message: us gatekeepers can be nice people, we are often just the bearers of bad news. I remember in my very first job, it was very confusing as both the gatekeeper and the decision maker had the name Simon. The gatekeeper was the nice Simon, whilst the decision maker was the scary Simon. Everyone was quite afraid of the scary Simon, whilst I eventually became good friends with the nice Simon. Nice Simon was definitely both a guide and a gatekeeper, given how very helpful he was.
So that's it from me on the issue of gatekeepers, decision makers and guides, I hope you have found this article useful - if you have been rejected for a job recently, it may be interesting to revisit what happened and see if you could identify the roles of the various people involved in this context. Please let me know if there are other issues that interest you when it comes to gatekeepers or any other aspects of the recruitment process! Many thanks for reading.
Another lovely informative article, with a zero noise, 'all music' content!
ReplyDeleteSeriously dude, have u considered publishing a career guide for Singaporeans? I think u would be brilliant!
Thanks Chen. Actually I am not the best person to do that, given how I have spent so little of my working life in Singapore and most of that in the UK. I recognize that there are huge cultural differences in the way business in conducted in Singapore compared to the West, so that limits me to certain areas of the process where I can talk about.
DeleteYou are absolutely right LIFT. I have encountered racism at my previous company where they reject all non-Chinese candidates (the HR gatekeeper personally told me so it's not speculation). Also they request a photo with every CV to further discriminate you based on looks. I bet the prettier girls tend to get the sales position regardless of ability. There are also lots of potential minefields in a Confucius type hiring environment which I won't even want to get started on. All these are factors you probably never have to deal with in UK.
DeleteYes and no lah. I think that the world is changing, Singapore is changing because of the large number of foreigners coming into Singapore and so even if you work in a Singaporean company, the colleagues and management may be a mix of locals & expats. There are also Singaporeans who have lived/worked abroad returning to Singapore, bringing other management styles with them. So at least, I think I am providing these young people a useful glimpse into how things are done in other countries rather than accept that the Singaporean way is the only way to get things done.
DeleteThe reason i want to leave SG is because i feel that the change can't come fast enough. Probably it will change but only when all the old fogies die off.
DeleteCould've told you that - that's why I left in the 1990s. I don't have several decades to wait for change to arrive, I don't want to wait for something that's going to take a few decades to arrive!! Life is too short, I wanted to spend the most productive years of my working life in the West.
DeleteThat is why I left too. You are only young once!
DeleteWhere are you now Stargazr?
DeleteUSA
DeleteHi all,
DeleteI know this is completely unrelated to the thread and I apologise, but I am in a bit of a situation. I currently hold dual citizenship (British and Singaporean). I have finished my NS and soon will be turning 21, to which I will have to pick which citizenship. Btw I'm Singaporean by birth and British by descent.
I've been reading up on all the loopholes and possibilities of retaining both, and I wish to make an informed decision before I make a decision. For e.g resuming my British citizenship and not letting sg know about it etc. I've read in the constitution the sg gov will remain silent so long as I do not exercise foreign citizenship rights in sg etc etc.
Please help me out guys! I would really appreciate the help
I think the question for you is not so much the technicalities of dual citizenship but rather which country you see your future in. Where do you want to build your career and working life?
DeleteI have done that in London and am so glad I have not done so in Singapore given how successful I have become in London - I really doubt I would have accessed those opportunities in Singapore and have achieved the same levels of success and happiness in Singapore, but hey, this ain't about me, this is about you. Your decision should be based on that.
But seriously, why the fuck would you wanna work in Singapore? I know the UK is by no means a perfect country, but given the amount of opportunities you have in a big city like London, it's a no brainer. I digress, it's your life.
Hello there! Thank you so much for replying and again I apologise as it is not on a relevant thread.
DeleteI look forward to the prospect which is the UK but what stresses me is the idea/possibility of retaining both citizenships, I don't plan on staying in Singapore especially to work and live (I've lived in Brunei my whole life). Like I'm wondering when you applied for your British citizenship, did you have to inform Singapore? From what I've read so far there are many rumours about loopholes e.g Singapore's Wikipedia page on the constitution indicates they will remain silent as long as the user does not exercise foreign citizenship rights in Singapore etc.
One of the reasons as to why I feel so reluctant to let go of the SG one is the idea that (to my own knowledge please correct me here) I won't be able to attain PR whilst in the UK I will still be able to.
I understand that ultimately its up to me and where I decide my future will take place, but its the idea of going through this loophole that I will be able to hold both (without the sg government ever knowing too)
If you have no intention on building your career in Singapore, then there's no real benefit to holding on to your Singaporean citizenship. The only reason I can foresee for you to wanna hold on to your Singaporean nationality is to work in Singapore, to build a career/life in Singapore.
DeleteWhether or not you can go through this loophole to hold on to you pink IC is a moot point - you really should be thinking about your career and the next ten years of your life based on your aspirations and career plans.
I'm going to be blunt - I think you're making a terrible mistake to think about holding on to your Singaporean citizenship when you made it clear to us that you've got no intention to live/work in Singapore. Unless you have some parent/relative giving you emotional grief about holding onto your Singaporean passport, you really have no reason to hold on to your pink IC.
So if I may be blunt, you're not making any sense at all. You're not talking logically. Like do you have a Singaporean girlfriend or something? What else are you not telling us? Because you're going on and on about holding on to your Singaporean nationality for ... for what? Just to stay the hell away from Singapore for the rest of your life?
None of this makes sense at all. You're either extremely confused or your not telling us the whole story.
@Unknown I'm not saying this out of fear of you stealing my job, anyway the industry I will be working in the future is very specialised and in high demand so that is not possible. But the truth is the Singapore job market is very cool now. Almost all companies have frozen their headcounts since last year and I think it is going to last another 2 years more.
DeleteMy good friend has been out of a job since 2015 Dec, that is going on 1.5 yrs. And he has a masters and used to work for GM so he is definitely talented.
Just finished my exams and got offered my negotiated pay increase phew thanks for all your advice LIFT :) i guess it will be towards work life now for me!
ReplyDeleteSo you're not going to go for honours and take that job yes? Regardless of what your dad says?
DeleteI managed to convince him that its not a bad idea and if there is one thing we can agree on is that a B.A has no use IRL so the honours doesn't make a difference. For now, I just have to decide if this is a good enough offer to give up my extra one year of student life for and also another pending opportunity. I don't know why but now that I got the offer I'm even more confused because a part of me wonder if there are some other greener grass out there/if the timing is right etc. Then again, I also think all these doubts are just popping up because working life suddenly feels very real so it might just be plain cowardice speaking
DeleteI think you're just feeling nervous about the big transition from student life to working life - it seems to me that you are making the right decision. There are many aspects of working life that you will enjoy - having more money, that empowerment of having a sense of responsibility, a sense of purpose but a lot of that depends on a) you liking the job and b) the people you work with (esp your boss) being nice. I wish you all the best on both fronts and hope things work out - keep me updated okay? :)
DeleteHi I just chanced upon this blog and found ur views intriguing especially the part on private universities. Okay so a little background here. I'm current a SIM student. Yeah man I don't rly like my school at all. The UOL cirriculum and everything suck big time. I used to be a smart kid. Things have happened along the way and Ive lost myself to eventually land up where I am today. Of cos I'm filled with tonnes of regrets and disappointment. So I would like to hear some advice. May I know university were u from and what's the ranking? I understand that you have mentioned some universities are just crap which is ranked almost a 100. I suppose u would deem Birmingham as bad. And that is already the best I can think of that sim offers. It issues the actual degree at least with actual cirriculum. RMIT and UOL are just some dumb external programme. I would like to ask what are the universities do you as a gatekeeper approve? Since Birmingham or Manchester which are like the only actual external degrees offered here lol as private. And yeah they are bad cos bad ranking. So as a gatekeeper, which universities do you suggest? Let's exclude the top 5 that we all know. Oxford Cambridge Harvard etc. And to be honest no doubt I'm a dumb Fuck now that I have landed here. Man I smoke thru my entire education system since like o levels? I went to NP business school. Guess that's okay lol? I didn't turn up for classes at all. Fail all my common tests. Didn't study at all. Basically just smoking thru to get my diploma. Didn't even bother with graduation or talking to anybody at all. I became fking depressed big time. Like I said been thru a lot of personal struggles so yeah for few years since o levels and Poly days my Brain has probably rot. I procrastinated and did no shit all these years. Even for o levels man I couldn't give a shit but somehow my score was able to get me to jc. However I chose NP business sch because I was like whatever. So it's almost like 5 years now. I rly feel like a loser for not accomplishing anything. I couldn't help feeling depressed. Man it was so demoralising when I couldn't get my 4.0 gpa in Poly. I just simply gave up. I wanted that ivy league. I wanted all that social shit and external stuff going on. It was all too tough and stress overtook once again. And my self esteem couldn't stop falling. Life just feel fucking sucky to me. It's like why is there so fixed education system here also. It's either NUS or SIM. Fucking piece of shit.
ReplyDeleteTo add on, Sorry for Cursing. I would like to get ur advice on what I can do. I domt want to be a loser anymore. I want to step up the game. To be honest I can study for my UOL exam within a day. I dun study in the year or even attend lectures. I only take a day or few days before to simply chiong or smth. It's been like that since o levels to Poly to know. I just get by like that. And really I want to step up my game alr. I dun want to be a tortoise or dumb fuck. I never wanted to. It's just that emotional and personal torment that I've that I can't overcome and strive for better things. I hate being looked down on. I was from prestigious sch and I know smart and rich people. Cmon they ditch and Diss me at my current state. I'm like a fking loser with no social status and no money and like a dumb loser lingering around this earth. Sorry for complaining. Now I'm like whiny bitch. But really what are the good ranking universities in ur opinion as a gate keeper. And I'm interested in the UK and European culture and life. Hoping to go over there. Who cares if it's some low ranking university from Germany or sweden? Cmon I dun fking care. I jolly learn that bloody language. Go over there. Go do fucking well. And work there. Leave this damn place. What are ur advices for me? What are the universities shld I aim to go to for post grad or maybe transfer now by doing certain tests. And what reputable internships or courses shld I go for. I'm currently doing banking and finance. I'm planning to switch to accouting soon. And perhaps gonna pursue further ACCA papers. At least some professional accredition there. I dun wanna be deemed as a tortoise yo. The Uol accouting degree does allow some exemptions for the acca paper. And I will see how after the acca paper. Maybe a master or smth. I'm interested in either finance accouting or law. Rly do like law. But cmon I'm alr at loser state here. What are more options to do Law? Of give up my dream?
ReplyDeleteSorry for Cursing. I would like to get ur advice on what I can do. I domt want to be a loser anymore. I want to step up the game. To be honest I can study for my UOL exam within a day. I dun study in the year or even attend lectures. I only take a day or few days before to simply chiong or smth. It's been like that since o levels to Poly to know. I just get by like that. And really I want to step up my game alr. I dun want to be a tortoise or dumb fuck. I never wanted to. It's just that emotional and personal torment that I've that I can't overcome and strive for better things. I hate being looked down on. I was from prestigious sch and I know smart and rich people. Cmon they ditch and Diss me at my current state. I'm like a fking loser with no social status and no money and like a dumb loser lingering around this earth. Sorry for complaining. Now I'm like whiny bitch. But really what are the good ranking universities in ur opinion as a gate keeper. And I'm interested in the UK and European culture and life. Hoping to go over there. Who cares if it's some low ranking university from Germany or sweden? Cmon I dun fking care. I jolly learn that bloody language. Go over there. Go do fucking well. And work there. Leave this damn place. What are ur advices for me? What are the universities shld I aim to go to for post grad or maybe transfer now by doing certain tests. And what reputable internships or courses shld I go for. I'm currently doing banking and finance. I'm planning to switch to accouting soon. And perhaps gonna pursue further ACCA papers. At least some professional accredition there. I dun wanna be deemed as a tortoise yo. The Uol accouting degree does allow some exemptions for the acca paper. And I will see how after the acca paper. Maybe a master or smth. I'm interested in either finance accouting or law. Rly do like law. But cmon I'm alr at loser state here. What are more options to do Law? Of give up my dream?
ReplyDeleteOK Kendra, I don't quite know where to begin, you've written a lot so I will just offer you a few bullet points.
Delete1. You need to read this article I wrote which addresses why your degree is essentially useless and a total waste of your time and money. http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/q-what-is-wrong-with-degrees-from.html As a gatekeeper, I can tell you that we have to reject up to 90%, even 95% of applicants and with a private university degree - there's no way for me to say this nicely, we'll never consider you. You'll never get past the first round, we'll condemn you as someone too stupid to make it to a normal university and we really don't give a shit what your story is or why you messed up your studies - I'm not your father, I'm not your uncle, it's not my business to fix the things that went wrong in your life. My job is to reject 90% of applicants. If you thought your situation is bad, it's probably a lot worse than you thought.
2. I had a scholarship from UCL - but bear in mind I'm 41 years old, I'm much older than you. Back when I took that scholarship, UCL was ranked 3rd in the UK (behind Oxford/Cambridge) and ranked top 10 in the world.
3. You're asking the wrong question about rankings - there's a huge difference between someone who has earned himself a place at Birmingham (currently ranked 16th in the UK) and someone who does an external programme via a private university. HUGE difference. To earn yourself a place in Birmingham, you'll need pretty good, respectable results in order to earn yourself a place there. Whereas someone who does it via an external programme can enroll themselves even if they have utterly terrible grades. Look, I don't know what kinda bullshit lies the people at SIM have been feeding you, but let me tell you that any decent gatekeeper will know the difference between a graduate who has actually attended the university (ie. you've earned a place at a good university by virtue of your good grades) and an idiot who has done an external programme via SIM (sorry, in your case). Gatekeepers are not stupid, you can't fool us. In your case, I'll look at the route you've taken and dismiss you as a stupid person. Look you're in SIM, I can't fix your desperate situation - all I can do is tell you that whatever external programme that SIM offers, none of that is going to fool us gatekeepers. We still know the score with you and you're totally wasting your time and money with whatever programme SIM is offering you. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but somebody has gotta tell you the truth about how awful your situation is. Part 2 coming up.
part 2 now.
Delete4. Germany and Sweden aren't simply going to open their doors to you. You need to be a highly skilled migrant who commands a very high salary before you can get the work permit. Oh and you're going to need to speak German or Swedish as well - I have worked in Germany quite a few times and my German is pretty okay, I do speak several languages. I find it laughable that you think you can just learn German when you can't even be asked to study hard enough to do well enough in your exams when it mattered. Have you ever tried learning a foreign language as an adult? I have, I speak 10 languages - it is not easy and it requires a very high level of discipline and from what I have read so far, you sound like someone who projects your shortcomings and weaknesses onto others rather than take responsibility for your own failures. I gather you've had a difficult teenage years - I did too, my parents are disabled (autistic) and I had a really messed up childhood. If you wanna compare who has a more fucked up childhood, I can guarantee you mine was a lot more fucked up than yours. But there's no one for me to blame as an adult, no one is going to feel sorry for me, I just have to work hard and prove myself and you seem very angry Kendra and perhaps you too have had an awful childhood like me. But is your anger going to solve anything? No, it isn't. Are people going to help you because they feel sorry for you? No, they are not. You have a lot to learn about the real world Kendra.
You wanna work in Germany for example, you need a company in Germany willing to give you a job and apply for a work permit for you. Which company in Germany would wanna hire a loser from SIM? Please lah, German gatekeepers know how to do their homework and research - you are not going to fool anyone. They'll realize it is a private university and you can apply to a million German and Swedish companies and not a single one will take you seriously. Even if you have rich parents who are willing to pay for you to study there, you will never get into a top German or Swedish university, competition for those top universities is so intense that you will never stand a chance to get there (oh and everything is taught in German/Swedish). You'll end up getting a degree from a crap German or Swedish university, you won't be able to find a job there after you graduate and you'll be kicked out of that country once your student visa expires. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you don't stand a chance at all of working in Europe. Don't get me wrong - thousands of Singaporeans work in Europe, they usually have great degrees from top universities, which enable them to get good jobs. You don't have that luxury, you've already made a fatal mistake that you can't recover from.
You really wanna hit the reset button? Sit for your A levels as a private candidate, study hard and get straight As, then you can apply for a top university. That's really the only way for you to hit the reset button after you've messed up your life like that.
And please. I laughed out aloud when you told me you're studying banking and finance. Well I have news for you. I'm a gatekeeper in the banking & finance industry and I'll never ever give you a job, not even entry level, the moment I realize your degree is from a private university like SIM. You seriously think you can get a job in this industry? Wake up. I'm sorry to be the one to give you the bad news. No gatekeeper will ever take you seriously.
I can't fix the situation. You've fucked up beyond repair. Short of hitting the reset button.
But wait, there's part 3.
Part 3: I know of this guy in my industry, I have worked with him - he's a very capable guy, great at what he does and has worked in some of the UK's biggest and most prestigious investment banks. He messed up his A levels, went to a crap university but still managed to get a good job in banking. Why? Because his daddy is crazy rich and well connected - loads of people are willing to help his father so thanks to good old nepotism, a few phone calls were made and he was given a graduate entry position job with a good bank. Was this fair? Of course not. He got the job whilst so many other better qualified applicants were rejected - but his daddy was rich and influential. Luckily, it turned out that this guy was just lazy and not stupid, he worked hard and proved himself in the industry - he's doing quite well today and we're good friends. Is life fair? Of course not. So if all else goes wrong, you can always ask your parents for help - I just hope your dad is a super rich multi-billionaire. But then again, if your parents are that rich, you don't really need to work. LOL.
DeleteAnd with a name like Kendra, I presume you're a woman. Just marry a rich man. I know that sounds sexist but it can be done. Quite a few of my former classmates (who are intelligent and capable, I assure you) have done that - got married, got pregnant and are now happily staying at home bringing up the kids whilst the husband goes out to work. Wanna get outta Singapore? Marry an Angmoh. Simple.
Probably the easiest route for you at this stage. I have no magic wand to wave - you seem extremely naive to think that a few courses or the right internships can fix the mess you've made so far. Nooooo Kendra, your mess is a lot worse than you thought. The easiest solution is to marry a rich man.
Hey thank you so much for your pointers. However, i would like to point out that somehow people who graduated from UOL manage to find jobs in banks, is it really a useless degree? I personally know of people who are working in UOB and citibank from UOL. But im not sure if we are talking about really high positions or managerial level. I personally know of someone who is in compliance from UOL. But yeah i do know that wanting to be an investment banker in Goldman sachs, that is certainly NO WAY POSSIBLE. In addition to that, i didnt know that birmingham was ranked 16th. I thought it isnt a really prestigious school. Well, my friend from a worse off poly than me, managed to get accepted by Durham and Birmingham. Her score wasnt that fantastic really. But she told me Durham was better and Birmingham wasnt as good. That really, im not so sure. Anyway, i was really attracted by the Birmingham degree offered at SIM. Its as far as i could see, really the only good degree there. But i did remember in your post, you mentioned that, there isnt any easy way out by fooling gatekeepers and doing some external programme. They told me that this Birmingham degree offers the same cirriculum and has lecturers flown from birmingham itself. The degree certificate is exactly the same. Everything is the same. And its not like some distant learning thing like RMIT or UOL. So anyway, i gathered this from their website.
DeleteReasons to study Birmingham’s Undergraduate Degrees at SIM
Degrees are of the same standings and standards as those awarded in the UK
Long tradition and established track record of teaching business
Established international reputation of University and the Business School
Research led – cutting-edge research feeds directly into teaching
International syllabus with a focus on the issues of globalisation
What are your views? Is it the fact that they mentioned "international syllabus" which makes the difference from what it really is? And also in addition to all that, in my previous post ive asked about doing ACCA. What about that? What are your takes for me to plunge into the ACCA programme. It is a professional accreditation. And maybe do a masters after that. The thing about ACCA is that im not sure if i can apply now based on my diploma or do they need A levels. But i do know people in the same school as me. Ngee Ann Poly. They did an accountancy diploma and move on with ACCA. However my diploma was business studies. If im not accepted, then maybe i will just stick with my UOL then move on to ACCA. Because i have checked and double confirmed that ACCA recognises the UOL Accounting degree programme. And there will be exemptions. Since im year 1 now, i will change my degree next year to accounting. So its either applying to the actual birmingham university in the UK, Apply for ACCA and if rejected, do the UOL accounting and continue at ACCA. Oh and check this out, http://www.accaglobal.com/uk/en/qualifications/glance/university-of-london-uol-msc-in-professional-accountancy/uol-msc-professional-accountancy-overview.html
What do you think of this programme?
Kendra, thanks for your message. I'm busy at work now - I just wanted to tell you that you are totally wrong on the issue of the external degree programme.
DeleteThe bottom line is, there's no way you can fool a good gatekeeper. No way. We are put there to keep people out, to find excuses to say no to someone. We know the difference between a student who went to Birmingham and one who did an external programme.
The problem you face is the entry standard - I know that you didn't meet the rather high entry standards that Birmingham demands of students who want to earn a place there. I know something went wrong in your life that meant that you had to resort to taking this route, rather than actually earn a place at Birmingham university.
Do you think that SIM would tell you, "Kendra, study this expensive programme, it'll be a waste of your time and money, but hey, we'll screw you over - it's your funeral, we just wanna take your fees." No, of course they're going to promise you things they will never ever deliver.
It's got nothing to do with the syllabus. I don't give a shit about what you study there. The bottom line is that we gatekeepers are looking for warning signs of STUPIDITY and problem characters - ie. people who have messed up. The moment we spot an external programme / private university, boom you're out. It is that simple - we will always reject you as I think, "if you can mess up your education so badly that you have to resort to taking this route, what is going to stop you messing up as an employee?"
The bottom line is this: no smart straight A student will ever choose the route you're taking. Us gatekeepers, we know that.
So you are wasting your time talking about the specifics of the programme, I am rejecting people like you on the basis of the route you've chosen.
More later. But you can't win on this one. You can argue till the cows come home - I'm just telling you what us gatekeepers think about people like you. We reject 90% of candidates. I'm only sad that you're in denial about how screwed you are. Who do you wanna listen to? A gatekeeper who is honest enough to tell you the truth, or the bastards at SIM who just wanna sell you a useless programme and take your money?
If you have chosen the latter, then you deserve to be doomed.
And on the issue of those with SIM degrees finding good jobs - you clearly have no understood how statistics and probability work. Yes I have met people with crap degrees or even no degree at all who have gone on to do good jobs and become successful in a range of different industries and of course, we all love a feel-good success story. But you need to understand that if you have a crap degree or no degree, then you are trying to triumph against the odds, rather than cruise your way to success. I give you an example: I know someone who went to Oxford to do a degree and before he even graduated, he was inundated with job offers from so many companies, all trying to hire him. Why? Because he has proven himself to be intelligent enough to get into OXFORD and everybody is trying to throw money at him to hire him for his brilliant brains. Do SIM graduates get job offers before they even graduate? No way. You have to get out there, apply for jobs and hope for a gatekeeper out there to give you a chance.
DeleteI'm not saying that no one out there will give you a chance - heck, everyone deserve to be given a chance to prove themselves, but it is not going to be easy. It is going to be very difficult because you're trying to triumph against the odds, the odds are totally stacked against you. Compare that to the Oxford graduate, where the odds are in his favour.
Have you ever played poker? Do you know what I mean when I talk about a good hand? Or even Scrabble or Mahjong - sometimes you can get great tiles, sometimes you can get terrible ones. In poker, yes you may be able to win with a bad hand (ie. terrible cards), but it is highly unlikely for you to do so if you keep getting the wrong cards. However, if you have the right cards in your hands, it's hard to lose. Same principle applies with your external programme degree - you're NOT fooling anyone. You may have been fooled by the SIM bastards who promised you blah blah blah, but you're NOT fooling gatekeepers like me. You currently have a really lousy set of cards in your hands and you think that just because some people have triumphed against the odds, you can do so too?
Boy. You really need to sit down and revise that chapter on statistics and probability because it is affecting your grip on reality. You're in cloud cuckoo-land. Earth to Kendra, wake up and smell the coffee.
You need to read this as well: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/why-your-choice-of-university-matters.html Kendra, there's only so much I can do to try to help you if you choose to lie to yourself and believe the bastards at SIM who have deceived you. I have nothing to gain by telling you the hard truth and the only reason why I am keen to help is because I too had parents who didn't give me any useful advice when it came to my education/career - but I had good teachers and friends who helped me out along the way. I believe it is good karma for me to help others in return, but helping you in this case means telling you the bitter, hard truth. If you prefer a more sugar-coated version of how fucked up your prospects are, then you coming to the wrong place Kendra. I think that people who are offering you that sugar-coated version are doing you far more harm than good because whilst they may make you feel better about your situation in the short run, they are really just feeding you a big pile of lies and you deserve better than that. You deserve the truth.
DeleteAnd please - you're talking to your friend for advice, is she a highly qualified gatekeeper like me? Who knows better, her or me? Please lah. I don't mean to be condescending but your friend doesn't know shit. But regardless of Birmingham's ranking, it doesn't apply to external programmes - like I said, us gatekeepers are super sharp and we are experts in spotting the difference between a real student at the university and someone who did it via an external programme. The fucking bastards at SIM fed you a pile of lies about the Birmingham progamme and you're an even bigger idiot than I thought if you're dumb enough to be duped by those assholes. Duh. I can't help you if you don't want to hear the truth.
And I don't know how many times I have to say this to you before you finally get it: YOU CAN'T FOOL A GATEKEEPER. Don't even try. We tear CVs apart and make phone calls, investigate candidates and dig up dirt and the moment we find something that suggests that you're less than credible or in your case, that you've messed up before in the past, then that's when we strike you off the list. But you know what? You're not even going to get to the point where I bother looking at your record in more detail - you are doing an external programme! IT ENDS THERE. It doesn't go any further. The moment we spot an external progamme, we dismiss you as a fucking stupid idiot who has fucked up big time and we avoid losers who have a track record of fucking up - sorry if this sounds harsh, but the job of the gatekeeper is to do a quality control exercise: identify the winners, banish the losers.
DeleteI repeat: YOU CAN'T FOOL A GATEKEEPER.
Hi Kendra, I read your posts and I'm here to offer you some advice.
DeleteIf you truly want to step your game up, do your A levels privately. Simple as that. That is a qualification ALL universities look at when considering you for their university (for UK, Australia at least and Singapore of course). If you truly want to show that you are not a tortoise, step up and do your A levels then.
The thing is, A levels are TOUGH. O levels have nothing on how tough A levels are, that's why the weaker students are weeded out at A levels and not just people who may not be academically inclined, it's those who were lazy and such who are also weeded out and their A level results are so bad no high tier university will even look at their application.
I did my A levels privately YEARS after failing my O levels. I was starting from scratch. Heck, I didn't even know what H1 and H2 subjects are (H2 subjects carry a much higher weightage as it covers more content and most universities consider H2 subjects first)but I buckled down, studied my ass off and while I didn't score straight A's, I scored 2 A's out of my 3 H2s and qualify for plenty of reputable universities. It may not be oxbridge but I easily qualified for the big 4 Australian universities which are ranked among top 50 in the world and currently have a place in NUS.
To shake off being a "tortoise", there are no shortcuts. It's how much hunger and desire you have to pursue it for yourself. If you think you have a messed up life, I myself have suffered my fair share as well. Heck, I suffered with depression for nearly a decade but I didn't let that stop me from shaking off the tortoise label.
You seem to want Limpeh or anyone to give you a magic answer but the simple answer is that you have to work hard for it. Limpeh already explained how worthless your SIM degree is. If you truly wanted to shake off that tortoise label, the option has been spelled out to you. It's whether you can take that step and succeed.
Oh yeah, ACCA does offer a foundation diploma in accounting. Since my poly diploma isnt accounting and they dont recognise business diploma, i wonder if i can try enrolling in that? And also do check this out http://www.accaglobal.com/sg/en/qualifications/accountancy-career/working-studying-internationally/in-uk/uk-msc-accounting-finance-programmes.html
ReplyDeleteThere are UK master programmes offered to ACCA grads isnt it.
I think you're approaching this all wrong Kendra.
DeleteFor someone who yearns to leave Singapore, your mindset is extremely Singaporean. Painfully so.
I do have solutions to your situation but you've got to be willing to listen to me. Right now, all you're doing is defending your terrible, bad decisions which have landed you in this situation in the first despite me saying two things over and over again.
1. You can't fool a gatekeeper.
2. Your situation is far worse than you thought because you have been fed so many lies.
And here's the worst part of your mess - you got into this mess in the first place because you didn't do well in your studies, what makes you think you can 'study' your way out of this mess by going down this ACCA route? I can understand that all you've done all your life is studying as a student, but the way I see it, you're flogging a dead horse. You're better off pursuing your interests outside your studies, starting your own business, thinking outside the box, doing something totally brand new rather than trying to change the fact that with your track record, no gatekeeper is ever going to give you a chance.
You are going to ignore that, but I'm going to just keep saying it. You're barking up the wrong tree. You're heading in the wrong direction. Yet you're too stubborn (not stupid, but stubborn) to even listen to me.
@Kendra
Deletei think LIFT's points are brutally spot on.
Private U's its really all about the money.
Frankly doing a degree at a private U is
kind of like a "face saving gesture."
Just saying im a degree holder doesn't mean shit.
Comparing Ivy league level friends vs say an NUS chap, and then again comparing the NUS chap to an SIM grad..theres a clear difference in calibre. I'm talking general intelligence not just grades. As in people skills, abiltiy to read a map, cook a simple meal etc At least thats my experience so far.
Am i saying that an Ivy League grad is a born genius? Well no. From what i gather, parenting plays a big part. Straight A students are generally more likely to have wise parents who love and support their kids. Nonetheless there are exceptions so lets not indulge in excuses. It not our fault if we are born to loser parents. Its our fault if we live our live our lives as losers
so short of retaking A levels, what other alternative options do u have? i know u dun have much resources but can u start a small business?
Seek some kind of apprenticeship? Do sales?
i would argue learning to sell an excellent eduction and u make good money
its hard to do, but theres less barriers to entering a selling profession
When you screwed up your academic record (like me), the fastest route to whatever profession that you are seeking is via portfolio/experience. Take your humble pie and try out for an apprenticeship/internship and work from there.
DeleteLIFT, would you mind doing an article on internships? I have a feeling that most Singaporeans have this preconceived notion that internships are exclusive to students only. In my industry, anyone could apply for an internship if they lack experience, and besides, most companies in my industry, love exploiting cheap labour. It is a matter of how much one can achieve during one's internship to get him/her to employment at the next company.
DeleteI'll think about it - I'm already writing my next piece about the Singaporean mindset on this issue and may incorporate your point in the article instead of writing a whole article on internships. Thanks Weiping.
DeleteCouple of times I've seen a do it at all costs private degree work. I've encountered colleagues who started off with a diploma but worked their way into having a portfolio and some sort of track record in their chosen area, it could be technical work, maybe they were an assistant engineer, or factory floor technician, etc. They established a track record and were told then by their bosses that look, you are up for the next senior engineer, team supervisor role, you've got all the basic knowledge, etc. But HR policy is such that these roles require a degree, so you really got to work on that. And so they do a degree, usually its by night class, etc at private schools. Once they get that, the company doesn't look at what school it came from, it knows they've already got their shit down, and this is just a formality for them to take the next step.
ReplyDeleteIn such cases it becomes worth doing it because they've checked all the boxes, and just need that piece of paper to fulfill a requirement. But as you've mentioned, if you are already lagging behind, then getting that piece of paper is not going to work out for you if its all you have. You are better off focusing on building those skills and track record until one day people tell you "you've got it all dude, just go get that degree and you're all set."
It's true that a lot of Singaporeans don't understand this, and it is baffling. On the one hand they rant and rave against elitism. On the other hand, they don't even seem to understand themselves that they can take the alternative route to success. They are against elitism, but they themselves are the ones who want a degree there and then at all costs, without considering that first, building skills and portfolio can be that bridge to address what they do not have for now. So they get a degree which costs a bomb, that doesn't rank up to what others have. And often it is a very mainstream, run of the mill major without a proper niche they can exploit. They find they lose out. Then the whole rant and rave against elitism process starts again.
Hello Raymond and thanks for your comment.
DeleteThat is insightful indeed and fair enough, if there are companies with such strict rules about "you must have a degree to do this job" - then okay, my personal opinion is that this kind of rule is dumb, because it doesn't take into account the relevance or the quality of the degree. If anything, it only supports the private university 'degree mill' industry whereby people are forced to spend thousands on a degree that they neither need or is useful to them, other then just ticking a box on some arbitrary checklist. For what it's worth, I've only worked in jobs whereby degrees are not compulsory despite being armed to the teeth with paper qualifications - don't get me wrong, nothing I do is simple, but it involves a kind of knack to solve complex problems that no degree in the world can prepare you for, that's why none of my bosses have even checked what degree I have - they just know that I am a problem solver with a great track record. So surely the problem is with the HR policies in Singapore?
You've also made a brilliant point and I quote, "But as you've mentioned, if you are already lagging behind, then getting that piece of paper is not going to work out for you if its all you have. You are better off focusing on building those skills and track record until one day people tell you "you've got it all dude, just go get that degree and you're all set."
Working on part 2 - akan datang.
Yes and no on whether the policy is dumb or not. Yes because the guys been doing it all already without a degree so why does he need one now? No because well, if I had not had this guy I would have advertised for the position and a degree would be among the criteria because the norm in the working world is still to assume that all things being equal, a guy with a degree has demonstrated better ability to deal with complex information processing, etc.
DeleteBut then again, what if I just happen to have a guy without a degree and who can already do all that? It is a loophole, definitely.
Yes, but not all degrees are equal - SIM vs Oxford? Hmmm.
Delete@Raymond
ReplyDeletethe rant against Elitism smacks of sour grapes.
Besides that, i believe people see the degree as some sort of magic carpet to money & recognition.
Doing internships, building a portfolio, or creating products to sell all seems like a life time of awful hard work with uncertain returns.
On the other hand - a degree seems certain -
u memorise stuff daily for four years and then u will get a piece of paper that then magicAlly delivers money & recognition. U're set for life! A miracle!
Come on, we all know that a degree doesn't necessarily guarantee money & recognition - even people with good degrees can struggle in the working world if they choose the wrong career path. A classic example is the Asian son who gets forced down a career path by his parents for the prestige and realizes he hates the career and would much rather do something else. It's pretty hard to excel at your career if your heart is just not in it and you hate every moment of your life, your heart is filled with regret and hatred towards your parents.
DeleteDo young Singaporeans seriously believe that a good degree magically delivers success in life? Good grief. There's no magic carpet in life. We all know the huge gulf between student life and working life - just because you're good at passing exams doesn't mean you will automatically be successful in the working world.
Anyway, plenty more in my next post, akan datang. Gimme a few days, the boss has so much for me to do this coming week.
LOL, LIFT, I am in a similar situation, so much work stacked up due to me going missing during the Japan Golden Week Holidays.
DeleteOK people, the follow up is ready http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/the-square-peg-in-round-hole-conundrum.html
ReplyDelete