Friday 19 May 2017

Does having "a recognized degree" mean anything?

Hello again everybody. I have written quite a few posts of late about young people looking for jobs upon graduation and the phrase ' a recognized degree' as come up in some of the discussions. I immediately felt like putting up a red flag and sounding the sirens because it was the kind of phrase that would totally mislead impressionable young people who are looking for reassurances when things are not going well. Firstly, let's get a bit of technical jargon out of the way: what is the difference between an accredited and a recognized degree? I found an excellent answer here: 
Is your degree recognized or accredited?

"Accredited degrees and courses are recognised by the professional bodies of the respective professions, often required before one can work and practise in the field. A doctor who wishes to practise in Singapore will need to hold an MBBS degree accredited by the Singapore Medical Council. A practising lawyer will have to be accredited by the Singapore Ministry of Law. A person with an engineering degree from an overseas university will need to ensure the qualification is accredited by the Professional Engineers Board before seeking registration as a professional engineer in Singapore. Other areas that require accreditation include: Architecture, Dentistry, Dietetics, Occupational Therapy, Optometry, Pharmacy, Psychology, Physiotherapy, and Speech Therapy. This rule is applicable in other countries, falling under their respective accreditation bodies. Recognised degrees, on the other hand, are for the vast majority of careers that do not require accreditation. Undergraduates planning to become journalists, full-stack web developers, or enter human resources or sales & marketing do not need an accredited degree to be guaranteed employment. However, gaining a recognised degree from a bonafide educational establishment can potentially increase your chances of employment."

The problem is that most universities are recognized because they meet some minimum standard as stipulated by the government of the country where the university is located. These minimum standards often revolve around rules such as how many hours of lectures/tutorials a student is entitled to have as part of the course, what is the student-teacher ratio, how long the course should last and how much the university can charge the students. It does not however, imply that all 'recognized degrees' are somehow subject to the same quality control when it comes to course content, admission standards, teaching standards or learning experience, no, on that front, there s a vast difference between students from top tier universities like Oxford and Cambridge and those at the very bottom of the league tables. No, that is pretty much left to the universities to run for themselves: so Oxford for example, receives applications from the brightest students in the world, so they can afford to admit only the very best students - whilst a university at the bottom of the league tables that still offers a "recognized degree" will be admitting students with very poor grades.  
Not all degrees are equal, do I need to state the obvious?

Need I state the obvious? Not all degrees are equal. The reason why I want to urge caution over the whole argument about "a recognized degree" is that it means little in the real world - imagine a prestigious company is recruiting and it is a good position, loads of people apply for the job. Say there are 100 applicants and they all have "recognized" degrees - so does that mean that all 100 applicants are on an equal footing? Hell no. The gatekeeper would start eliminating candidates at this early stage and the fact that you have a 'recognized' degree doesn't mean shit if there are plenty of others who have a degree from a more prestigious university or if they have far more relevant work experience. I find people who use the "recognized degree" argument are trying to use the argument that as long as the degree is recognized by the employer, it really doesn't matter where they are from - that's utter and complete bullshit because it implies that all degrees are the same (when they aren't, clearly). What next, are you going to claim that all cars are the same, that a Lamborghini or Ferrari is no different from a little Mini or Kia? 

The irony is that you'll find that only people who will use this "recognized degree" argument are those who come from universities lower down the ranking tables. Now to be fair, there are certain cases when having a 'recognized degree' is merely a box ticking exercise, let me give you an example. Say you are looking to get a work permit for Australia: according to their points-based system, you get points awarded for an undergraduate degree. Now it really doesn't matter which university you got it from, as long as it is a 'recognized degree' - heck, you don't get any bonus points if it is from Oxford or Cambridge, nor do you lose any points if the university you got it from is languishing at the bottom of the league tables. So in that specific circumstance, having a degree is merely a box ticking exercise where all graduates are treated the same by the system. However, even if you get past the Australian immigration system, when you apply for a job at an Australian company, you are still going to encounter a gatekeeper who is going to see how good your qualifications are compared to the other applicants - no sir, the playing field is not level and never will be. 
Not all degrees are of the same quality.

So, is this elitist? Perhaps, but can you blame companies for wanting to hire the best person for the job? I prefer to call it a system based on merit and, in my opinion, is actually fair. But hey, at the risk of sounding too negative, may I remind you that in my last post, I talked about three individuals who went to universities at the very bottom of the league table here in the UK but still managed to get good jobs and have successful careers today. Now what was the secret of their success? Did they depend on the charity of some HR manager or gatekeeper out there to take pity on them and pretend that their qualifications were as good as say someone from Oxford or Cambridge university? Hell no, all three of them had useful skills to offer their current employers - it was just the case that these skills weren't reflected in their rather dismal academic records. The fact is there are many people who have managed to achieve much in their careers in spite of not having a degree or having a lousy one - there are many ways you can impress a gatekeeper, to persuade them to give you a chance to prove yourself.  There are indeed many gatekeepers today who do rely on their own testing methods whilst largely ignoring paper qualifications.. Likewise, there are jobs out there (like mine) which no degree could really prepare you for and hence having a good degree doesn't really give you any real benefit. Such is the working world today - having a good degree doesn't guarantee you a successful career whilst not having one doesn't necessarily condemn you to a life of mundane, low-paid work either.

What is the solution then? It is simple: you need get to know themselves well and recognize where your strengths lie. What are you good at? What are your best qualities? What makes you different from everyone else? Is there something that you can do better than anyone else you know? What makes you a unique and special individual? What do your friends find most memorable about you? Learning to recognize what makes you an individual is going to be far more useful than going around demanding that all gatekeepers level the playing field because, hey, "I have a recognized degree (albeit from a mediocre or below-average, third-rate) university" and demand to be treated like an Oxford graduate. No, that's hardly going to work - that is like trying desperately to squeeze a square peg into a round hole. You have to recognize that the system generally favours individuals who have always good results - thus it is only worth your while trying to conform if you fit the mould and if you don't, then you have little choice but to think outside the box. Demanding that others bend the rules for you, so you have the luxury of conforming simply isn't going to work. No one is going to do you that favour, wake up and smell the coffee. Quite simply, no, you can't change the world by complaining that life is somehow so unfair to you, but you can adapt in a way that will allow you to thrive.
Don't squeeze a square peg into a round hole.

Perhaps you may think, oh yeah that's easy for you to say as you're a triple scholar who has always had good results - but let me share with you my experience in being on the square peg in the round hole. I work in financial services in London and I do stand out: most of the people in this industry are white, male, middle/upper class and straight. Once in a while, you may come across a black or Asian person in this industry, but good grief, we are rare. London is a very mixed, international city with only about 60% white - but in the banking industry, it is at least 95+% white. Not only that, it is also overwhelmingly male-dominated. Even when women are employed, they tend to be in roles like office managers, secretaries and HR managers rather than fund managers, sales managers or at director level. Yes gay men exist in this industry, but they tend to keep a rather low profile about their sexuality in order to fit in. But most of all, class identity is the biggest barrier to entry: if you're working class, forget it - the odds are stacked against you in a way you can't imagine. As an openly gay, Asian immigrant from a rather working class background, well, the barriers to entry for me were extremely high. I have been told by several people that I was better off trying my luck in a different industry - it had little to do with my intelligence or capability, but more a matter of social mobility.

Indeed, despite being a triple scholar with a degree from a top British university, the odds were still stacked against me for the kind of role I was pursuing within financial services. If I wanted to pander to some kind of Asian stereotype, I could try to become a quantitative analyst - but hey, despite being Chinese, I really suck at maths and couldn't do that kind of job to save my life. The director whom I work under is almost stereotypical of the kind of person you'll find doing this kind of job: he's from a very rich family, never mind sending him to Eton, oh please. He was sent to a painfully exclusive and expensive private school in Switzerland where he was educated amongst the world's elite (Kim Jong Un was educated at such a Swiss school). He oozes a certain type of charisma simply in the way he talks and yes, he is blonde and blue eyed. Having worked for UBS and Merrill Lynch, he is used to rubbing shoulder's with the most successful bankers in Europe. Somehow, this Ah Beng from Ang Mo Kio is his right-hand man and we have an incredibly good working relationship. Our backgrounds couldn't have been more different! Yes his rich, very privileged background gave him a brilliant start in life, whilst I had always been struggling to prove myself with the odds constantly stacked against me. I worked hard, proven my loyalty with my employers once I was given the chance.
I had the odds stacked against me in life.

Oh when it comes to getting jobs at this level, degrees don't count for anything. I look at the way young Singaporeans are under the impression that all they need is a good education and they can get a good job, good grief. I can only shake my head at just how extremely naive and wrong they are. I can't stress enough how important one's soft skills should be at this level: ironically, it is far easier to compensate for a weak academic record with soft skills than to try to do it the other way around. Let me give you a simple example of how I exploit this. One of the directors in my company is under the impression that I have great attention to detail, okay - I think I have other qualities that I am far more proud of, such as my ability to speak many languages, but he seems to be fixated with my 'attention to detail'. So I play up to it, I remember little things from our conversations so I could surprise him with a remark out of the blue. For example, I know his daughter is studying Chinese at school and I know when the exams are in the British system - so I would say things like, "how did Sarah do in her Chinese exams last week?" Not that I am actually that interested in how she is doing, I just need to remind him why he is paying good money to employ me by pushing the right buttons. It goes way beyond that of course, I am put in charge of projects where I have to make sure a long list of things get done and that's when I really have to pay great attention to detail - still, I don't think that skill is that special or unique. I merely stick a reminder in my diary for things I need to do, I don't have a photographic memory, really.

So there you go, the bottom line is having a 'recognized' degree' doesn't mean anything - heck, if you're after a really good job that pays well, having an excellent degree from a top university doesn't guarantee anything either if you don't have the soft skills to match your academic prowess. Nonetheless, as one of my readers pointed out, if you want to be a lowly clerk processing paperwork in the bank, you don't need a prestigious degree for a job like that because there won't be the same kind of intense competition for such positions. However, the clerk processing the paperwork is going to be paid a lot less than the hedge fund manager - at the end of the day, there are many rungs of the ladder between the most highly paid and the least highly paid in our society. Most of us will end up somewhere in the middle and where you eventually end up actually depends far less on your degree than you think. Make the most of what you have, it may be a lot more than you think. Let me know your thoughts on the issue please, many thanks for reading.

38 comments:

  1. Alex, i think you may have just revealed the real problem: poor soft skills. Poor self awareness, poor social skills, poor problem solving skills.
    Poor self awareness means you don't know what you need, poor social skills means you can't ask people, poor problem solving skills means you can't form a strategy.
    Applying for a Tom Dick & Harry University, doesn't much thinking skills. Fill a form & pay up.

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    1. Hmmm. There's more than just having decent soft skills - I think there's a whole mindset that holds people back. Let me get this off my chest: I had a long exchange with two friends on Facebook - look, I like them both but they're so left wing to the point they are their own worst enemies. It is election time in the UK and people like them just blame the government for EVERYTHING that is wrong with their lives and I'm like, if you take that kind of mentality, you never ever take any responsibility for anything at all in your life - then how are you ever going to improve your lot in life? Oh you didn't get that degree you wanted, you didn't get that job you wanted - blame society, blame the government, blame everyone for yourself, as if that's going to solve anything for you. The moment you accept responsibility for what went wrong, then you can start finding solutions because you can take constructive, pragmatic, concrete steps to improve your life. The moment you claim, "it's not my fault, I am the victim! The government needs to fix this, society is wrong and needs to change!" Good grief, you can end up waiting decades and still never get the government or society you want - but you can do so much to help yourself today and start improving your life right now.

      Will they listen? Hell no.

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    2. @LIFT i'm surprised you mentioned left wingers. The same group of staunch PAP supporters in SG are as described but one can never argue they are left wing, in fact they are extremely right winged with regards to fiscal matters.

      There are the group of people who keep telling others that the government knows best, do not challenge them, always listen to them, etc. I think our MPs and ministers are a bunch of jokers and i will never vote for them in a million years. I'm surprised they even managed to stay as long as they did. They have made so many gaffes i could fill an entire post here but i will let the ranters over at HWZ or ASS do so.

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    3. I think you are right. Certainly I had a good deal of this attitude right up til i was 24/25 years old. Realised that all the people around me were like that too. The system is against me bullshit. Real loser mentality. Its not a pursuit of success, but a
      "pursuit of legit-looking excuses"
      If thats the underlying motivation then any university would do.

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    4. @Choaniki - the current election has left me disillusioned and depressed because everyone just indulges in the blame game. The left is demonizing the right and the right is doing the same to the left. No one is talking sensibly about the actual issues.

      @LChen Too right, totally. The most successful people are those who choose to help themselves.

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  2. Even in Singapore, local degrees do matter. For example, the Big 4 accounting firms only accept degree from NUS, NTU and SMU for their graduate program.

    I knew a colleague who did an RMIT finance degree via distance learning at SIM. He was the top student but yet no local banks will hire him as an analyst because they perceived his degree as inferior. Heck, RMIT isn't even considered a top uni in Australia. In the end, he did financial planning at banks aka selling insurance and financial products to walk in customers at bank. You don't need a degree for that.

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    1. Please - SIM? Distance learning? Gatekeepers exclude those people immediately. That's a huge red flag - your friend may as well wrote "I'M A RETARDED IDIOT" on his CV the moment he applied to SIM. Haven't you read anything on my blog before and heeded my warnings about touching degrees from SIM?

      Besides, if he wanted to be hired by a local bank, why didn't he check the rules of recruitment - ie. what degree will they accept/recognize and which degrees do they regard "not worth the paper it is printed on"? He didn't check the rules of engagement and like a fucking idiot, went to get a degree from SIM then had the cheek to turn around and question why he was rejected?

      Your friend is a total fucking loser.

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    2. Only retarded idiots who have fucked up their A levels end up at SIM because no decent university will accept them. Their entry standards are so painfully low and more to the point, do straight A students choose to go to somewhere like SIM? No they choose to go to a good university like NUS, NTU or better ones abroad like Oxford and Cambridge. Do you know the term GIGO? Garbage in, garbage out - you can't polish a turd. If SIM only takes in shitty idiots who have fucked up their lives, even their best students are fucked up shitty idiots who have done slightly better than the other more fucked up shitty idiots.

      Your friend is seriously fucked up. And oh dear, you're his colleague? I hope your predicament is slightly better than his. Not that I have anything against people who do jobs that don't need a degree (ironically enough, that's my position too) but if you clearly can't study for shit, then why bother with SIM to get a degree not worth the paper it is printed on?

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    3. i have met so many insurance agents who are
      SIM grads. Might as well have gone into insurance at age 18 rather than waste time & money on. a dead end degree

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    4. Don't get me wrong - there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing a job that doesn't require a degree. I'm one such person - I may be a triple scholar but my degree is completely irrelevant to what I do today and guess what? It doesn't matter as long as you are happy doing what you do, you can do a good job of it and of course, let's be practical: your bosses are happy enough with your work performance and they will pay you good money to do what you do.

      L Chen raises a good point: why spend all that money on a degree that you don't need anyway? I do however, want to issue a warning: insurance agents are dealing with a low-value product with low profit margins. It is a stepping stone at best, fine: get some experience with sales, prove your worth, show us your can sell, then you need to move on to higher value products with much higher profit margins.

      Like in the last post I wrote here: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/why-do-people-go-to-crap-universities.html Lisa is doing okay selling high end cosmetic products, but her long term aim is to move on to doing selling more expensive luxury products, so your commission with each sale is in the thousands, not tens or hundreds.

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    5. @Lift u make interesting point about profit margins; i find that most insurance agents end up becoming essentially overworked employees.
      They may crow about "running their own business" but in actual fact simply hold a job which has no financial security or employee welfare.

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  3. One addition to the accredited degrees list would be diagnostic radiographer. The registration process was just completed last year so the list could be a little outdated. The accreditating body is also Allied Health Professions Council.

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  4. Opps, left out radiation therapist as well, their numbers are so small always forget about them.

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  5. Let me share with everyone another real life example of someone i know with an unrelated degree making it big in the financial industry. I know someone who graduated from NUS with an Engineering Degree and he worked with Toshiba for 1 year before he found out that he didn't like Engineering but preferred sales. He made a switch to doing sales in a big manufacturing company while trying to establish himself as a person able to sell.

    Once he obtained the requisite portfolio he transitioned to working for a Forex bank as account manager and he slowly worked his way up. When an opening presented itself in the form of a new branch opening in HK, he grabbed the opportunity to be the sales lead for the new HK branch (he had the requisite language skills as he spoke Cantonese as well).

    After gaining sufficient contacts and experience he jumped over to Thompson Reuters and is currently working as a director there. @LIFT he is in my LinkedIn network so i think you can figure out who he is.

    So as you can see having a recognised degree is only one small factor for success. Being qualified (language, soft skills, technical knowledge) and being at the right place at the right time an opening presents itself is also very important (i would argue much more so).

    I know so many dead beats with an NUS degree who are having problems getting a stable job while i also happen to know college dropouts currently working in huge companies like IBM. A high EQ and charisma were the main differentiator of the people in the latter category.

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    1. Good point about soft skills + sales. Actually none of the skills I learnt in school are of any use - I rely entire on my soft skills to do my job today and the foreign languages that I do use are French (which I did at university), Spanish + German (both self-taught). Then on top of that, I use some Welsh and Malay/Indonesian. I don't use Chinese at all at work - just as well, as my Mandarin suuuuucks so fucking bad.

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    2. Alex, given the fact that your parents are poor at communicating, how did you pick up your soft skills? An innate talent?

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    3. I think it was a question of nurture vs nature. It was definitely NOT an innate talent, I was a v shy and awkward child in primary and secondary school. I kept to myself very much - you see, my passion was gymnastics and when I trained, I hated distractions, I hated talking to people - I was 100% focused on the task and people generally knew I was like that and left me alone. The coaches loved it as it meant I worked v hard and didn't fool around, talking, lazing etc. I had the same approach to my studies as well.

      There are two major components to me picking up soft skills. I did TSD + English literature at A levels - now that gave me an academic understanding of what empathy meant. English literature is all about showing you understand why a character behaved the way s/he did in the story - a lot of people hate Eng Lit but there are useful lessons to take away from it. Secondly, there was NS - now there is a HUGE price to pay if you are awkward and didn't get along with people in NS. Oh boy. It was a sink or swim situation - either learn to get along with the people around you quickly, or you get ostracized, even bullied. I realized that soon enough and made sure I learnt to get along with the people in NS.

      I suppose that you can put anyone in a "sink or swim" type of stressful situation and not everyone can learn how to swim under those circumstances, so I suppose without an innate ability to learn, I would have sunk? Is it fair to say that?

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    4. Let's call it a superior capactity to learn, and on top on that im guessing you were determined to learn what you had to to succeed, without any sense of entitlement.

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    5. There needs to be both a willingness and ability to learn: I changed a lot in NS. I remember when I first went in, I was totally shocked by the culture and by the end, I was giving myself nicknames like Ah Lian - you see, my surname is Liang and I dropped the g at the end so people could call me Ah Lian (I trust you know what an Ah Lian is) - like if you're willing and happy to make fun of yourself like that, then people are more likely to be relaxed around you. Making fun of yourself shows a certain... confidence I think - I look at my parents and they were always so fucking afraid of anyone looking down on them, laughing at them, they had zero confidence with strangers and were nervous about meeting new people. NS changed me - I used to be like them.

      Whadaya know, something good came outta NS for me you know.

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  6. Hm but LIFT im wondering if the same applies for technical roles because a degree in Data Science/Engineering/ Nursing etc will then require some sort of training from a higher institution right? For example, say a SG student did badly in his A levels and is unable to enter local unis but still wants to enter nursing industry then in this case wouldn't SIM be an option? It is quite hard to imagine him going through a self-taught nursing curriculum etc... but of course I can see your point for general degrees like Arts & Social Science and Business & Finance for that matter.

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    1. Madhatter, YES it applies. You're quite naive in even asking that question, but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and explain in a kind manner.

      If an SG student did badly for his A levels and fails to gain entry into local unis, then the options are as follows:

      a) retake his A levels
      b) see if he can gain entry into a poly course, redeem himself in the poly


      Of course, option b) is only viable if your grades are not so bad that even every poly would reject you. Indeed, some of the most popular poly courses are so oversubscribed these days that you need some pretty impressive results to gain entry to them.

      There is no short cut, no self-taught option if you have simply fucked up your future by messing up your exams, especially in the Singaporean option. SIM is simply NOT a viable alternative given that an SIM degree is always going to be seen to be vastly inferior to one say from NUS or NTU. That is why I say the most sensible option is to simply hit the reset button and spend a year studying bloody hard and getting good enough A level grades to gain entry into NUS/NTU if that is the route you want to go down.

      SIM does not offer nursing BTW. https://www.hotcoursesabroad.com/study/training-degrees/singapore/nursing-courses/loc/168/cgory/h5-3/sin/ct/programs.html You have chosen a poor analogy.

      But if you do want to enter nursing, for example, then you jolly well know the rules of the game, get a qualification that will enable you to find a job in the profession of your choice and study hard enough to make it happen.

      You are claiming that somehow the rules should be bent or broken for those who have fucked up their studies and did so badly that SIM is the only option. I can only shake my head and say, "how naive are you, kid? This world is extremely unforgiving to people who have fucked up their studies like that. Wake up and smell the coffee."

      You know, we have a saying in NS, "this is not your grandfather's army" - that means, you do not get to make the rules and do as you wish, you jolly well follow the rules as they are. Likewise in the workplace, in the job market, in the real world, if you're working for your grandfather's company, then you get to do what the hell you like as your grandfather is in charge. Otherwise, you jolly well follow the rules and don't expect any special favours.

      In short, don't fuck up your future by ending up in SIM.

      Don't fuck up your life.

      SIM will fuck you up big time.

      Got it? Understood?

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    2. Your attitude is painfully naive. Oh gosh you remind me of my nephew when he was younger. We would play games with him when he was little - me, my two sisters, sometimes the grandparents or my sister's husband would join in. Us adults playing with one young child, of course we would always bend the rules and deliberately let him win. It would seem unkind of beat a child in games like that, especially since I cherish time with my family. I've got no problems breaking or bending the rules of the game for my nephew to deliberately let him win - but that's in a very limited context where there's no consequences when I break/bend the rules for him.

      In any technical profession where you need to learn a trade to a high enough professional standard to do that job well, you need to ruthlessly do two of the following things:

      a) refuse admission to people who fail to meet a minimum standard
      b) fail students who do not achieve a certain standard in the exams

      Good universities like NUS will do both of those conditions on a regular basis - that is why it is bloody hard to get into one of the more popular courses at NUS like medicine and law and even when you get in, you're expected to work crazy hard in order to meet their high standards. SIM however, does NEITHER. They admit anyone who can pay the fees and dumb down the course to the point where anyone will pass no matter how incompetent they are. In short, there is zero quality control when it comes to their graduates, it's just a money making exercise: you want a degree? Sure, just pay up and we'll print you one, even if you are a total fucking retard.

      That is why employers regularly discriminate against 'graduates' from universities who fail this very basic quality control criteria! We know that if the student is of decent calibre, then he would have gone to a decent university and pass the rigorous tests in order to graduate, having survive the quality control. We know that at respectable universities, if the student fucks up, then he will be failed and not graduate. But at SIM, you can fuck up from day 1 to the day you graduate because of the total absence of any kind of quality control, you will still be allowed to graduate.

      Look, we're not being mean to students who have fucked up their A levels and end up in SIM, but the problem lies with SIM in their total disregard to the concept of quality control. This is why it is simply NOT a viable option. No way. If you go to SIM, you're telling gatekeepers that you're so fucking stupid that you cannot survive any kind of quality control, so the only way you can get a degree is if you go to a university without any kind of quality control.

      Like I said, you may as well have the words FUCKING RETARD tattooed on your forehead if you go to SIM under those circumstances.

      Got it? Understood?

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    3. Got it. Understood. FYI i googled SIM Nursing before giving the example though (http://www.simge.edu.sg/gePortalWeb/appmanager/web/default?_nfpb=true&_st=&_pageLabel=pgProgrammeFinder&menu_discipline=Nursing). I completely agree with all your points about how there are clear intrinsic differences in universities in case you think im some kind of liberal left wing SJW its just that one wonders what happen to SIM graduates then, they cant be all unemployed right? I think reality is a little more in between in SG case whereby yes SIM graduates almost never hold civil service positions (our govt still puts emphasis on paper qualifications) but I don't see this happening in the private sector. Most job requirements are just "Bachelor degree preferred/required" and thats it.

      Also I don't see how your explanation clarify the technical aspects of certain jobs that may well tap into prior educational learning regardless of their origins from uni rankings on the league table. Look I'm not arguing that SIM = NUS and I agree with everything you said about the lack of QC etc.. Yet if in order to gain an understanding of engineering at a tertiary level, student A options are either to go back to poly or retake exams can you blame him if he just took the path of least resistance and opt for something that already offers him the opportunity to do what he wants to do?

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    4. Madhatter,

      1. I corrected - so SIM offers nursing courses, okay. Fair enough.

      2. What happens to SIM graduates then? Like I said, there isn't a simplistic division between employed in a brilliant job and being left on the scrap heap of society. I just came back from the supermarket - how much do you think the people working there are paid? Not a lot. They are employed, they have a job, but are they highly qualified? Are they rich? There is a pecking order in society whereby some people earn a lot more in their jobs and enjoy a far more comfortable lifestyle, whilst others work in jobs that are hardly fun or rewarding for very little money just to make ends meet.

      So I am not saying that no one will ever hire an SIM graduate, if say an SIM graduate wanted to work as a cashier at a supermarket (and be paid peanuts for that), then sure, why not, no problem. When can you begin? But if an SIM graduate wants to apply for a job in a top bank, then forget it - it's not going to happen. So in short, SIM graduates will mostly work in jobs that are lowly paid, at the bottom of the pecking order because there is just no way they can compete with graduates from better universities.

      2. You're wrong once again about the "bachelor degree preferred/required" criteria. As I have explained, if I get two graduates apply for a job and one is from NUS and one is from SIM, whom do you think I am going to see in a more favourable light? Am I going to see them both as equal just because they both have a bachelor degree? Of course not. This is when you're at the mercy of gatekeepers whose job is to decide who is more worthy, who is better, who is more capable and who would be a safer bet to hire. Look, hypothetically speaking, say if I advertised for a position and everyone who applied is an SIM graduate, then I will find a way to test them to find the best person amongst them. But if I get a mix of NUS/NTU and SIM graduates, I will automatically reject the SIM candidates first and then consider the NUS/NTU candidates.

      3. I hate to be cruel - but you're making a mistake that my autistic father makes. You're imagining that you know more about the issue than I do when you clearly know far, far less than I do. You're a young student with little knowledge or experience about the process whereas I am an older person who is in the unique position of being a gatekeeper. How dare you think that you can formulate any kind of valid argument about 'job requirements' when I understand the process far better than you do by virtue of my age, position and experience? I hate to be blunt: but compared to me, you know NOTHING. I repeat. Shut up and listen, you know nothing compared to me. Your best bet is to humbly beg me to explain how things work to you.

      4. Yes I will blame the lazy fucker who takes the path of least resistance and opts for SIM because it does not offer him the opportunity to do what he wants to do. It shows a complete lack of understanding of how things work in the real world: like I said, if you intend to work for your grandfather's company, then great - lucky you, you have a doting grandfather willing to give you a job. Otherwise, wake up, smell the coffee and follow the rules like the rest of us. It is a cruel world out there and I will blame the lazy fucker who ends up in SIM for fucking up his life. You think some stupid sod can fuck up his studies and expect to be treated as worthy as someone who has worked incredibly hard for many years to prove his worth? No fucking way, no in the real world madhatter. What planet are you living on? The path of least resistance usually leads nowhere in this context - that's why SIM graduates will end up doing crap jobs for very little money whilst those who did very work hard will be rewarded with the better paid jobs in our society.

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    5. 5. I hope you have a rich, loving, doting grandfather willing to give you a well paid job. Cos if you don't, you have a LOT of growing up to do. Don't shoot the messenger for the message - this world will condemn lazy, stupid fuckers to a lifetime of misery doing really shitty jobs for very little money. They will be exhausted, miserable and most of all, penniless. And that's why you have to study hard at school.

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    6. Allow me to cover the part on Data Science/Engineering. I do have ex-colleagues who are now working in that field. Any sort of degree does not automatically qualify you to take up that profession or provide you with that role. In fact, non-HR gatekeepers will automatically skip over the Education section of your CV. What they are looking out for is experience or portfolio. So unless you did some sort of internship or participated in relevant analytics projects during your course of study, you might as well give up on expecting full-time job offers. But there is always the silver lining of internships which they do not hold much expectations.

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  7. The more popular health science courses in NYP are very competitive. There are 2 former medical students in my radiography course and they still choose to study in a polytechnic when they could easily gain entry to any course in local universities.

    The new degree offering for health science in SIT is much worse. I have hear of straight A students from RJC getting rejected for the radiography course. She ended up going to a private university.

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  8. erm LIFT im going to go straight for 3. first because cmon you know i have great respect for you man! If my tone came off as arrogant I personally humbly apologize to you now. I was genuinely trying to put up a logical comment based on yes my young limited understanding so I'm not going to defend your judgement of me. I think point 4. really clarifies your stance very well and I sincerely hope all gatekeepers are going to think like that 5. my aim was never to shoot you?! repeat RESPECT MAN. and yep grrrooowwwing. Perhaps to give you some context my friend's goal is to form a startup but he wanted to gained some engineering experience first because he felt like he didnt have sufficient tech background and was considering SIM courses long story short i referred him to your blog lah anyway and i just copy paste his pov to you. I also believe in studying hard and entering NUS back then I did a) for myself and didnt believe in taking the easy route either. Got an internal scholarship, took your advice and am about to start working now! Appreciate your candour and hopefully this comment helps to minus the ire! And that's why your blog posts and comments are super fun to read.

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    1. Look, I'm sorry I lost my temper and said what I said, but at the end of the day, I don't get to make the rules of society and what gatekeepers think or determine how they operate. You asked me a question, I answered it and well, you may not like the answer but I can't tell you something nicer or different if that is the genuine answer to your question. Gosh that almost reminds me of a ridiculous conversation I had with my parents.

      Mother: She lives in the capital of Australia, Sydney.

      Me: Sydney is not the capital of Australia.

      Mother: Well it is the biggest city in Australia, isn't it?

      Me: The capital is Canberra, not Sydney. The capital city isn't the biggest city in the country, it is not determined that way, that's how what 'capital city' means.

      Mother: Well it should be Sydney.

      Me: You don't get to move the capital of Australia from Canberra to Sydney just because you think so - it is what it is and it's not for you to decide. So shut up already.

      Mother: Why are you so rude?

      Look, I am merely reporting to you, narrating to you what happens in society, I don't get to decide what happens out there, the same way I didn't get to pick which city became the capital of Australia. There's really no point in arguing with me whether someone who chose to go to SIM should be crucified or not for that kind of bad choice (or at least condemned to a lifetime of doing lowly paid manual work), like as if I get to wave a magic wand and decide the fates of those people? No, I don't have that kind of power.

      I am merely a messenger, who can tell you how the world works. By that token, what I think about the issue is actually irrelevant - even if I do believe that SIM graduates should be given a fair chance, guess what? It won't make any difference to how people out there view SIM graduates or how they are discriminated against in the job market.

      That's my whole point madhatter - as individuals, we can't change the way society or the world is. All we can do is understand how the system works, so we can make choices that maximize our chances in this world. I'm so sick and tired of people who are quick to blame the system, the government or the society when they haven't even spent a moment thinking about how they can help themselves.

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  9. Hi LIFT,
    I was a SIM graduate and did a long distance master course with Warwick University. All of my classmates had recognised degrees and were gainfully employed. I chose SIM as the coursework was easier and less time consuming but it cost thrice than the master courses from NUS and NTU. It was still cheaper than going to Warwick. I got another job after graduation in the civil service. It would not have accepted me earlier as I didnt have either first and second class honours degree. Most SIM graduates I know are already working when they started either degree or post graduate courses. Many did continue to well in their jobs. I was told that its difficult for working poly students to get into part time degree courses in NUS or NTU. I agree with them as I graduated from NTU and course work is really demanding. Not recommended if u have a busy day job.

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    1. Hi Zoey, please stop being so defensive.

      I did state clearly that it is a question of having the odds in your favour - it is possible to struggle against the odds and succeed (hey I am one such example), but life is going to be a lot easier if you have the odds in your favour. Now that's just a simple matter of statistics. On average, Oxford graduates are far more likely to earn a lot more than SIM graduates - the reason is simply because straight A students are going to try to apply to universities like Oxford rather than SIM. Find me a straight A student who actually chose to go to SIM by choice, rather than it being a "oh shit I fucked up, now what?" option.

      And as for getting a job in the civil service after graduation, oh pullease lah. You say it as if it's something to be proud of, as if I'm meant to be impressed. Let's see you try to get a job halfway around the world, many time zones away from your friends, family and your parents' connections and then thrive the way I did in the UK. The private sector is far more cut-throat in terms of competition for the very best jobs and we do not tolerate mediocrity, it is a double edged sword. Yes I'm in an environment where people are far less fussed about paper qualifications (like I said, my boss didn't even check if I have a degree or not) - but if you don't pull your weight, you're fired. It's that simple. Perhaps the kind of cut-throat business environment I am used to is a million miles away from the Singaporean civil service, but I know I am so much happier where I am and it would be like squeezing a square peg into a round hole if you ever tried to get me to work in a Singaporean environment. I hear some of the stories my sister tells me and I'm like, how do you put up with that kinda shit? Why don't you just quit and go work for an Angmoh?

      Like I explained in my article (and in previous articles), there are some professions where you don't need a degree and you compete on equal footing with those with a better or worse degree and indeed with those without a degree at all. I'm in one such profession since I work in sales. My degree is completely irrelevant to whether I can sell or not. I've met plenty of people who have struggled against the odds and succeeded - I think it is a shame that you treat getting a degree as a box ticking exercise, rather than one of life's greatest experience in growing up and getting a good education. I'd much rather do that at one of the world's top universities - rubbing shoulders with the most successful individuals in my peer group - rather than those who turn to SIM as a last resort after they fucked up, or worse, with those like you who show as little enthusiasm as you about the spirit of education, treating it as a box ticking exercise just to get it over and done with. I feel sorry for you if your degree meant that little to you. I studied at two of the world's top universities on scholarship (UCL and Paris-IV Sorbonne) and what I learnt there goes way beyond a paper qualification - just living in Paris amongst the French made me grow up and learn so much about myself in a way you would never have the privilege of experiencing in Singapore.

      The fact that you could get that defensive about your choice to go to SIM, sigh. All I can say is I feel sorry for you if that was your experience. I don't see people who went to say Oxford or even NUS being defensive about their decisions.

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    2. I just wanna add one more point that perhaps you haven't considered: nepotism. I know of this guy, let's call him Stan (not his real name). Super rich kid, went to the most expensive private schools, didn't study much - ended up at a crap university at the bottom of the league tables. Then when he graduated, his daddy made a few phone calls, got him a job in a prestigious bank via a family friend. Luckily Stan was just lazy as a student, he wasn't that stupid but his crap degree didn't hold him back as daddy was able to get him a good job whilst the rest of us ordinary folks have to apply and compete with the best. Fast forward like 20 years, Stan's doing extremely well in the world of banking today despite his crap degree, because his father helped him out.

      I'm sure people from Stan's crap university would be celebrating him as a success story of the most successful and rich graduate ever in their alumni. They would probably gladly ignore the role his father played in getting him where he is today. So you see, there are so many more factor's to one's success apart from one's degree per se.

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    3. LIFT, a career in the Singapore civil service clearly isn't your cup of tea, but for many people it is a job that suits them fine and provides a decent way to make a living. Different strokes for different folks?

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    4. Yeah of course I was being a dick about it to put down the civil service job - Zoey seemed so proud of it like, hey I managed to get a civil service job despite being an SIM grad. I just wanted to remind her that there are far more difficult jobs out there for far more ambitious people. My autistic parents worked in the civil service for crying out aloud - if they could get a job as a civil servant, it can't be that difficult!

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    5. I do agree with you though that getting an university education is one of life's best experiences and I would rather do that at a traditional 4 year university vs SIM - no brainer!

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    6. Can I point out that most British universities offer a 3 year direct honours programme: no idea why NUS takes 4 years. In Scotland, some universities offer a 4 year programme but you emerge with a masters degree.

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    7. Most US universities usually take 4 years as well. If you are a traditional age student, attending a traditional university along with your peer age group is a rite of passage, for sure. However, people who do distance learning or private universities usually aren't the traditional student demographic. As you pointed out, they may not have had the opportunity to go to a traditional university when they were 17/18, either due to their own lack of planning, or their family financial circumstances.

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