Friday 3 March 2017

Irene Clennell part 2: more of your Q&As

Hello again everyone. The last Q&A about this case well and truly went viral when it was shared a lot on social media, so I feel I simply had to do a part 2 to the Q&As. I didn't quite know what the response would be when I first started writing about this, I didn't know how interested my readers would be in this case but the more I wrote about it, the more interesting it go because there are so many layers to it. I suspect that many people were confused or frustrated by what they read in the press, so they were looking for an alternative point of view on the issue. So I am very glad I was able to step in and shed some light on the issue. So let's press on with some more questions about the case.
Q: Why is Irene Clennell's case so interesting then?

A: If this was just about a woman who got deported because she violated the terms of her visa, it's no big deal - this happens all the time and there's not that much public sympathy for such cases. However, once you move beyond the technical details of her visa problems, you have the sister-in-law Angela Clennell who has raised over £53,000 on GoFundMe to help her sister but Angela has lied about how long Irene Clennell has lived in the UK on that website. This is rather disturbing - but the public who are donating don't seem to mind/care about the details of the case because the government is currently so unpopular that people are willing to believe any story that makes them look like the enemy of the people. You then have several versions of the story out there: some more respectable journalists from the BBC have verified their facts, whilst others like Buzzfeed, the Sun and the Independent reported the lies that Angela and Irene have said to them as if they were facts. Now that's shockingly bad journalism and with Trump coining the phrase 'fake news' for the last few months, well - he may be right this time. So on top of the case of the deported woman, you have a possible case of fraud, a dumb British public who desperately looking for confirmation bias online and an example of 'fake news' generated because some lazy journalists are just so shit at their jobs. (Trump 1 : Buzzfeed 0) Those many different facets to the story makes it interesting - Irene Clennell herself isn't that interesting, it is what the case reveals about the British public and the state of the media that is the story here.

Q: Irene Clennell had been unsuccessful with her previous visa applications - she had struggled to get back into the UK since her ILTR (indefinite leave to remain) lapsed in 1994 when she was in Singapore. Her struggle to get back into the UK has been going on for a long time. Why is she only going public like that now? Why hasn't she tried talking to the press the last few times? What's different about this time that made her want to go publict?

A: Good question. There are a number of reasons why she didn't go public quite this way back in the 1990s or even the 2000s - social media played a big part in this story. Sure in the 1990s and 2000s she could have tried to talk to journalists from newspapers in the UK about her situation but was it news worthy? Singaporean woman messes up her visa situation and gets denied a visa because she violated the rules of her ILTR. I know we have some terrible newspapers in the UK but even that isn't newsworthy. It was with social media that Angela Clennell could present a case whereby an innocent grandmother was being deported despite having lived in the UK for so many years - now that's the kind of click bait that gets shared on social media and certainly, there are enough people out there in the UK today who are so angry with the government they automatically give in to confirmation bias. Without modern social media, this wouldn't have been possible - the story gained momentum first on social media before Buzzfeed picked up on it and then the other newspapers than joined in.  All this wouldn't have been possible ten years ago without modern social media. Irene Clennell was going to be deported regardless, so this was a "what have I got to lose" last ditch effort. Certainly the concept of crowdfunding and pages like GoFundMe just didn't exist in the 1990s and 2000s.
Why didn't Irene speak up years ago?

Q: Clearly it has generated a lot of public attention, with journalists lining up to interview Irene and Angela Clennell even days after the deportation. Do you think that this kind of attention will help her case now that she will appeal?

Going public like that does have its risks, ultimately it is up to someone quite senior in the Home Office to decide on Irene Clennell's final appeal. If that appeal fails, she will be banned from the UK for ten years and then in 2027 (she'll be 63 then), she could try to apply for a visa again but by then, any chance of getting a visa is so slim it would be virtually impossible. Her family probably hopes that the media attention along with public sympathy would help her case, but it may have a totally opposite effect. You see, both Angela and Irene told so many lies to the media from changing the number of years that Irene has actually lived in the UK to raise over £52,000 from the public by going public with a story riddled with lies (and that's not white lies, not if you're obtaining that much money on the basis of the story you have presented). But more to the point, the Home Office wouldn't want to encourage others to do the same thing: don't have a strong case? No problem. Just whip the public up into a hysteria based on lies and half-truths about the case and have the public baying for blood. The Home Office cannot issue a statement like, "this dishonest woman has been lying to you, here are the facts of the case." No, they cannot release confidential information like that to the public of a case that is still under appeal, so they are obliged to stay tight lipped about it.

The Home Office is run by civil servants, not politicians. So it's not even like you can threaten politicians to help you or you'll make them look bad. Certainly, the minister responsible for Home Office Amber Rudd, Secretary of State for the Home Department, she doesn't get personally involved in such individual cases. That's not what ministers do, they don't get their hands dirty but it is people lower down the food chain who will make such decisions. Thus the civil servants really don't give a damn what the public thinks of them, they are not up for elections, they are not participating in a popularity contest, they just have to enforce the rules of the state. If they cave in to public pressure and grant Irene Clennell a visa, then imagine the kind of signal they're sending. "Don't have a valid case? Just whip the public up into a frenzy with plenty of lies on social media and the Home Office will abandon its principles and rule books instantly!" That would make the government look weak and it would make the Home Office look incompetent, because any kind of U-turn then would be an admission that they were wrong to have deported her in the first place.
What kind of precedent would this case set?

If you are begging for the Home Office to make a U-turn, then allow them the dignity to do so without the glare of the public gaze. In Asian culture, we call this 'giving face'. But the moment you put someone in the spotlight, you make it far harder for them to do any kind of U-turn because people are going to question and judge them for their initial decision that necessitated this U-turn. You're forcing the Home Office to defend their actions thus. But in the past Irene Clennell didn't go public and they said no to her. So I suppose at this stage, she has little to lose by going public like that even if it would almost certainly mean that her appeal would fail. It is a highly counterproductive step - sure it may be reassuring, comforting even to know that there are kind strangers out there that feel for you, but can these kind strangers influence a decision that will be made by a small group of civil servants in the Home Office? No, not at all. That's not how the system works and all I can say is that the Clennells have been rather naive about the process.

Q: Surely someone along the way has uttered the words 'Surinder Singh' as a solution? Even I know it.

A: For those of you not familiar with the Surinder Singh route, it is fairly simple. John would have to live and work in another EU country for 3 months and he can legally bring Irene along there as his wife. Once they have spent 3 months there, they can then assert the rights associated with EEA citizenship and free movement to gain access to the UK while being covered by European law. It is a bizarre law but a loophole nonetheless that still remains open as this page on the government's website indicates. Even if John cannot speak another European language, he can always go to Ireland which is another English speaking EU country and get some lowly paid blue collar work, the donations (totaling over £52,000 as we speak) can cover their living expenses in Ireland for the period of three months whilst they do the 'Surinder Singh' application. It can be done and I can't imagine why they haven't considered that route.
Q: What? If there's such a simple solution, then why didn't they go for it long ago?

A: Ha! The simple answer is that they are suffering from a mix of stubbornness and sheer stupidity. I'm afraid a lot of blue collar, working class people are unable to think outside the box - Irene is convinced that she must be allowed back into the country as a spouse of a British man, it's her way or the highway. Well that led to her deportation. It didn't occur to her for a moment that she was wrong and totally barking up the wrong tree. It's not a complex solution - heck, at work, we're currently having a pretty tricky problem with a major cross-border investment with a large amount of money moving from Chile via the US to a Swiss bank account before it can be channeled to us in the UK. This has been ongoing for a few weeks now and everyday, one of the team will come up with a new plan, a new idea to solve the problem, a different way to move the money from A to B to C to D. That's what white collar professionals do, we take the initiative to come up with very creative solutions - you can't have the "it's my way or the highway" attitude when it comes to solving complex problems. Yes I am talking about the British class system - the elephant in the room.

But regardless, it's no longer a route open to them as Irene has been slapped with a 10 year visa ban and they can try to make a Surinder Singh application but it will almost certainly be rejected if they tried it now. It was a route that was open to them but they squandered the opportunity because they were so stubborn and stupid, they thought the rules that everyone else obeyed somehow didn't have to apply to them. Their next best option is to move to Ireland where John can live at least for a while there until the UK formally lives the EU, that would buy them two years at least together. It should have been so incredibly straight forward - and it is not like they have not asked for help, it seems they have been speaking to this woman Li Goh-Piper (I believe I have encountered her on Facebook) who as been offering them immigration advice, suely someone like Li Goh-Piper would have at least told her to try the Surinder Singh route? Or is it simply a case of "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" I know many of you are going to say that John's in ill health now and cannot pursue these options - but think about it, he had been working and was in good health for so many years, yet they couldn't get together then to find a workable solution years ago?
Q: How does Irene Clennell feel about the media frenzy?

A: I don't know because I am not really that concerned about her - sorry if that sounds callous but it's the truth. She's back in Singapore where she spent 43 years of her life (she's 53 today) and so it's not like we've dropped her in the middle of Timbuktu. Sources close to her have revealed that Irene has expressed "great unhappiness and grave concern at the wrong information being conveyed through the press and social media, whether deliberate or otherwise" - but really, neither Irene or Angela have any experience when it comes to dealing with the press. Neither women come across as particularly intelligent or articulate, it seems like that they don't really have a game plan - they are clearly enjoying the attention without realizing the detrimental effect it is having on their case. But she's let her sister-in-law run riot with this and it's too late. She has even showed up on my blog and posted a short comment in broken English ("Want to talk about me talk to me first i dont care who say what but i know the facts not tales") but hasn't followed up. But come on, if she was any more intelligent or sensible, would she have gotten herself into this much trouble in the first place?  Well, what were you expecting? Irene, you made your bed - now lie in it.

Q: What's all this talk about her accent then? Goodness gracious me, how British is she?

A: This is hilarious. Irene claims, "I don’t like going out here. I feel uncomfortable because every time I open my mouth people look at me strangely. My accent is different. When I’m here I just spend time in the room." This is utterly ludicrous - Irene is delusional. Firstly, I invite you to watch the interview she gave in the clip below - her accent is that of a Singapore of Indian ethnic origin. She does not sound English (or Geordie - as Emily Duggan suggests in her article) at all - far from it. Yet as we know, this was the very same woman who claimed that, "I don’t have anything in Singapore. I don’t have a house to go to, I don’t have a job. I feel closer to my mother-in-law and sister-in-law here than my family in Singapore." Yet guess what? She is currently staying with her sister's family in Singapore - granted they are not that rich and conditions are not perfect but it's not like she is sleeping on the streets of Singapore without any money at all. This woman realized that if she tells lies to make herself look more like a victim of circumstances, then the dumb British public who have already given her over £52,000 in donations will keep the money coming. If she wants more money, all she has to do is keep these lies up about just how horrible life in Singapore is despite Singapore being one of the world's richest countries, she is seriously pissing off and offending a lot of Singaporeans.
If you listen to the interview, Irene does something that virtually all Singaporeans and Indians do - it is the total inability to pronounce the TH digraph. This is something native speakers of English and people who have mastered English to a very high standard will be able to do, the fact that she turns her TH sounds into a D marks her out instantly as a non-native speaker of English with a strong foreign accent - which means she speaks far more like a Singaporean than someone from the North-East of England. Going beyond the accent, in the video she sounds like she is struggling to even formulate the sentences in English, pausing as if she is trying to find the right words to express herself. English doesn't even sound like her first language. Now granted that she has just gotten of a long flight and was probably tired in the video, it still does sound like she is speaking like someone whose first language isn't English - in fact, that is the way many older Singaporeans talk. But should that come as a surprise? She is an older Singaporean after all! 

In any case, Singapore is a big city with 5.75 million people - there isn't one 'accent' per se but a multitude of accents. The ethnic Chinese, Malay and Indian groups each have their distinct accents when they speak English, one's education tends to shape the way we learn English and the accent we develop as we speak English. Then there's the issue of social class as well: English is the language of education and business, so if you work in a white collar environment where you are spending most of your time with others who use English as a first language all the time, who consume mostly Anglo-American media (music, movies, TV, radio etc) then you're more likely to encounter a form of 'educated international English' without a Singaporean accent. But in a blue collar work environment, the languages used are more likely to be Asian (Mandarin, Malay, Hokkien, Cantonese, Tagalog, Tamil amongst others) so English will be a second or foreign language, a lingua franca at best in this kind of environment and it would come with a much stronger Asian accent. Listening to Irene Clennell in that interview, she certainly sounds very much like the latter.
Furthermore, amongst the 5.75 million residents of Singapore, there are 1.6 million non-resident expats (many of whom speak English as a second or foreign language). That doesn't even include the foreign born immigrants who are classified as 'Singaporeans and permanent residents' even if they were born and brought up elsewhere. That means that when you walk down the street in Singapore, when you get on a bus on Orchard Road, when you walk into any MRT station - you can speak to ten different people and encounter ten different kinds of accents. This is quite the opposite of a small town in North-East England where it is a lot more homogeneous, far less mixed and there is a dominant local accent. Ironically, with her strong Singaporean accent, Irene is going to stick out like a sore thumb in a small town like Chester-le-Street where her husband lived the moment she spoke, but in a very diverse, cosmopolitan, international city like Singapore, no one would bat an eyelid at her accent. I am pointing out the obvious, of course, for anyone who knows anything about Singapore. But we have already established that Irene will gladly tell lies as long as she can milk the dumb British public for more donations. Whoopee - who doesn't like free money?

Q: So why doesn't a journalist like Emily Duggan challenge Irene Clennell when she is clearly lying then?

A: Good question. Would Irene Clennell speak to someone like me? No, because my first question would be, "Irene, why are you lying to the media? Why is your sister-in-law Angela confused about how many years you spent in the UK - how would you feel if you got Angela into trouble over this?" I won't be a nice, sympathetic journalist who will publish her side of the story. I'll probably interrogate her like a criminal because I can see through her lies - that's why she wouldn't want to talk to me. Emily Duggan wants a story that will satisfy her readers. Let's talk about Buzzfeed for a moment: Trump has famously condemned them for being 'fake news'. Buzzfeed appeals to younger readers on the left wing of the political spectrum by writing stories that will like: it is called confirmation bias. Publishing a story about a silly woman who violates the conditions of her visa because she refused to follow the rules isn't going to appeal to them Their core readership already believes that the governments in power are evil and cannot be trusted, so publishing a story about a pitiful grandmother who gets deported offers them the kind of confirmation bias that they enjoy. In short, Emily Duggan is far more interested in pleasing her readers than reporting the truth because online news sites like Buzzfeed need to continue pleasing their readers to survive in a competitive environment, truth is sacrificed in the process.
I would ask Irene some very difficult questions.

Q: Doesn't that make Buzzfeed more of an entertainment website than a news website, where people go and read stories that gives them the kind of confirmation bias they crave, to agree with them rather than challenge their views? Is this why they have been accused of pandering 'fake news' by president Trump then?

A: Well it's not just Buzzfeed. A lot of the media is guilty of that - that's why different sections of the society (whether you want to divide them by left/right wing, or by social classes) read different newspapers and use different sources for their news. How do you think I feel when I read an article praising president Trump for all his great 'achievements'? Oh, it would sicken me to the stomach, it would not be a pleasing experience to do that. It's not so much that we are consciously seeking confirmation bias, but rather we prefer to read journalists who will write stuff that will not challenge our points of views. There was a time in Singapore a long time ago when people only read the Straits Times because that was the only English newspaper available - but in 2017, anyone can go online and choose any website they want for their news. The internet has changed the way news is reported more than any cultural tradition of 'freedom of speech' has but the conflict of interest is that websites like Buzzfeed still need to make money, they need to pay people like Emily Duggan along with a photographer to fly out to Singapore to interview Irene Clennell in Singapore. So it's not so much 'fake news' but entertainment at best for people seeking confirmation bias.

Q: Why did The Sun run a terribly inaccurate story on the case then? I thought the Sun pandered to a working class readership who hated all immigrants - so why did they take a sympathetic stance to Irene?

Good question - a complex one but a good question. The story sucked on so many levels: firstly the claimed that Irene spent 29 years in the UK, a total lie. They printed, "officials claim she broke immigration rules by spending too long out of the country to care for her dying parents in the 1990s." Yeah right, she was away for 11 years, they reported that she and her husband John were in Singapore for 5 years - again, the facts are plain wrong. In fact the story contradicts itself - even if she and her husband only spent 5 years in Singapore, then she couldn't have spent 29 years in the UK. The journalist who wrote the story can't do basic maths - but then again, neither can the average reader of their newspaper. This is a newspaper which is famous for their topless models on page 3 and great football coverage: it is designed to appeal to barely literate, working class, blue collar readers who are interest in boobs and football. Then again, this is the very demographic who voted for Brexit because they feared immigrants from Eastern Europe coming over to the UK taking their jobs away. Why would they take a sympathetic stance towards an immigrant then?
Why can't journalists do basic maths?
One reason could be that her husband John is a blue collar, working class older English man - he is probably the very kind of person who would read a newspaper like the Sun. It is a perfect match: he is unemployed and was claiming benefits - he claims he was too ill to work, but on the day Irene was deported, John received a letter from the government saying he was fit for work and would no longer get his employment support allowance (ESA). When John met Irene in 1988, he was a demolition worker in London. Now working on a construction site, doing demolition, that's as blue collar, working class as you can get. The Sun would be interested in the story if it affected someone whom their readers can relate to - so in this case, the angle is not so much that Irene was being deported, but a working class family in northern England is losing their wife, mother and grandmother because the Home Office won't make an exception and show mercy to her. This appeals to the old north-south divide in England: the callous rich, upper/middle class civil servants in London destroying the lives of decent poorer working class folks in the north - the angle does suit the the readership of the Sun pretty well. If they made it sound like Irene was a long term resident in the country, then she would look less like an immigrant - but that's all lies of course and the Sun's a terrible newspaper with no integrity.
Q: Hang on please. Journalists are supposed to be neutral, they should be the judge and executioner when they come across a controversial story. They should merely report facts, right? If they interviewed a person and the person lies, they can still use the interview - it is not really the journalists' job to start investigating who did what to whom? That's the job of the relevant authorities (police, a judge, Home Office or relevant government department). By that token, aren't you being harsh on the journalists who reported on this case without doing 'investigative journalism'?

A: When a newspaper publishes something that is misleading the public, then they are doing the public a massive disservice. What if I claimed that Michael Jackson and Elvis are both still alive and planning on doing a duet later this year? Clearly that's a lie, as both singers are dead - but just because I say that in an interview, should any self-respecting journalist print that in their newspaper or website? Clearly not. But this is exactly what happened in the Guardian (very left wing UK newspaper) today: they allowed Irene Clennell to tell her own story and it began with, "I've been in the UK since 1988" - great, she starts off with a big fat lie. She arrived in the UK in 1998 but has only at best spent 10 years in the country since then in 3 separate periods, including time spent in this country as an illegal immigrant when she overstayed her visitor's visa. Now any journalist who knows anything about the story will know that headline is a misleading lie - yet they printed it? Will they print my story about Michael Jackson and Elvis no matter how big a lie it is? Where is their integrity as journalists when it comes to misleading the public with lies?

Q: Irene arrived in the UK in 1988 (as a young 24 year old) and she was free to find work as a receptionist in a hotel in London? Now that's confusing. It seemed so easy for her to waltz into London in 1988 without a job offer, much less a work permit and then she was able to find a very lowly paid, unskilled job in a hotel? So how is that possible then, if it was so easy for her to come to the UK the first time back in 1988 and why was it so hard for her to return later?
I'm sure you have plenty of questions...

A: That's a hard question to answer, but then again, the journalists who have gotten close to Irene do not ask her hard questions. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt that she did everything legally then (and there's no reason to suspect that she did anything illegal then). She could have easily have come as a foreign student - London receives thousands of foreign students every year to study not just at the many universities in London, but there are a large number of other institutions that offer various courses and training as well. Full time students are allowed to work part time and typically, they do take on fairly junior, unskilled labour (similar to the job Irene took in 1988) to help make ends meet. That's one theory - the other is that she used another visa, the working holiday visa which allowed Singaporeans to spend 2 years in the UK working part time whilst being on holiday. Please note that this visa is no longer available as the UK government scrapped it some time back. Look at the timing of her marriage, she could have been near the end of that visa and got married to John then to continue to stay on in the UK. Both theories are equally plausible - not that it matters, nobody is doubting that she entered the UK legally in 1988 as those routes were open to her then.

Now is she able to to return again with a working holiday visa? No, as mentioned, this has been scrapped a few years ago and even if it still existed, you can only use it once before the age of 30. Could she return as a student? Technically speaking, that would have been a viable route for Irene - after her ILTR had lapsed, she could still have enrolled as a student in a university near her husband and then try to justify her status to remain once she can prove family life with her husband and children by living together in the UK. The only problem is that this is an expensive route as foreign students pay a lot of money to study in the UK and are not entitled to a penny of subsidies. Could her husband afford to bring up two children and pay for her to do a degree? Clearly not, if he is not a rich, highly skilled professional - he is just a blue collar worker. Yet Irene had a HDB flat in Yishun, so she could have sold it to pay for her degree - but she was adamant not to do so as she was convinced she could get back to the UK through other means.
Did Irene come to the UK as a student? That is quite possible.

Irene claimed on Buzzfeed, that she is upset at the implication from some that she might profit from all this. “This is not something that I want to do. People asked me how I feel about the money building up but it’s not about the money, because that’s no good to me if I have to stay here. I want to be with my family and that’'s it." Really? If so, why didn't you use the money from the sale of your HDB flat in Yishun to use it as a means to finance a degree that would have enabled you to return to the UK to be with your family then? Somehow, her story just doesn't add up, there are too many holes. On one hand, she wants to claim that she doesn't care about money and she just wants to be with her family, yet on the other hand, she was so reluctant to use her own money to 'buy' herself a way back into the UK within the law (by returning on a student visa). Certainly, the evidence of her past actions contradict what she claims - but then again, we all know she is a liar and so why should any of us be surprised that she has lied once again.

Q: Journalists have interviewed Irene, her sister-in-law Angela and her husband John, along with various members of her extended family in Singapore. Why haven't her children said anything to the media then, to support their mother?

A: By her own admission, Irene told Buzzfeed that she is estranged from one of her sons also named John (not to be confused with her husband). Her son John still hasn’t forgiven her for the eight years she was stuck outside the country while he and his brother were children. “He’s a bit frustrated but he won’t say it. Last time I saw him I said, ‘My visa application got rejected and I have to go back.’ I haven’t seen him since but I think the reason he’s staying away is he feels every time they get close to me I go away.” That's probably why her son John hasn't said anything to the media or wants anything to do with the media circus latching onto this story. There's no word on what her other son feels about that relationship but certainly, he's not speaking to the media either. There's really no talk about her relationship with her granddaughter either - we know Irene is a grandmother because the media can't stop talking about it, but even Irene herself hasn't said a word about her relationship with her grandchild which is bizarre as Asian grandparents love nothing more than to dote on their grandchildren. For all this talk about how important her family is to her, the evidence is painting a picture of quite the opposite - of a woman estranged from her family (but at least she is close to her sister-in-law, even if her own kids aren't talking to her). That wasn't enough to satisfy the Home Office.
Am I the only one concerned about the donations procured through lies

Q: Irene has claimed that the government is spying on her sister-in-law, how credible is that?

A: I'm not sure if that was meant as a joke, but that's completely not credible. The government have far better things to do! The only thing her sister-in-law has to worry about is if someone decides to launch a police report about her GoFundMe page, where she has obtained over £52,000 in donations by telling the public a pile of lies. I tried to look up Angela Clennell on the internet and she has virtually no internet footprint apart from anything associated with Irene's deportation. Now I am really good at tracking down people, that's part of what I have to do for a living - when I negotiate an important business deal, I dig up everything I know about the person I am dealing with, down to their shoe size and favourite ice cream flavour, so I know precisely what buttons to press during the negotiations. Many of the people I deal with do the same back to me: when you have been working professionally, your name appears in the press, you contribute to websites, you post stuff on social media and your internet footprint is there for the world to see. So for someone to have virtually no internet footprint prior to this case, it suggests that Angela Clennell never held an important job, was never active on social media and kept a very low profile all her life.

That isn't illegal of course, if she chooses to keep a low profile (and doesn't do anything noteworthy with her life), but why would the government be interested in spying on a woman from a small town in Northern England who hasn't done much with her life? There's nothing of interest there no matter how hard you look - this woman is boring. Scrolling through her Facebook page tells me just how incredibly vapid her life must be in Chester-le-Street - oh look she's checked in at the local dentist, duh. Good grief. Anyone from the government spying on her will fall asleep with boredom. If her life was really that boring, that I can see why she is milking all this media attention, like this must be the first time she has ever had the attention of so many strangers and talked to a journalist. She's not a dangerous criminal worthy of the government's attention - she's just a boring, small town simpleton who's not very intelligent. Give it a few weeks and she'll disappear into the woodwork, into obscurity.
Angela Clennell is just a frog at the bottom of a well.

Q: How might this case impact Singaporeans and indeed, other nationals who want to live and work in the UK? What about those who are married to British nationals, might they have reasons to worry?

A: Irene Clennell broke the rules that were clearly stated to her and this woman thinks that the normal rule of law doesn't apply to her. She is ridiculous and delusional - I'm being already being kind with my words. She didn't follow the rules whilst thousands of other foreign nationals who live and work in the UK did. I lived in the UK as a Singaporean for many years before naturalizing as a British national - the system is clear and fair, the rules are in the public domain. If you are not sure what the rules are, the onus is on you to get help. In my case, the help mainly came via a friend who is dual American-British national originally from the US who obtained his British nationality after living and working here for many years. It was not even that complicated, he merely helped double check that I had the right forms, filled in the paperwork correctly and each time he gave me help, it was settled in like 15 minutes, it was that straightforward. Irene Clennell is now slandering the British government and Home Office because she is too immature to take responsibility for her own stupid mistakes. Loads of Singaporeans living in the UK have no sympathy at all for her: we all follow the rules and obey the law, what makes you any different Irene? Why do you think the same rules don't apply to you? As long as you obey the law and find out what the rules are, you have nothing to worry about.

Q: Why do you take a personal interest in this case?

A: Well firstly, the UK has been very good to me. I have moved from Singapore to the UK and the Home Office treated me fairly and with dignity. So for Irene Clennell to come up with statements like, "The authorities have shown their willingness to treat foreign-born people as second-class citizens, no matter how integrated we are – and, worse, treat us like criminals." Well that's complete bullshit, that woman is a liar. I have never ever een treated like a second class citizen here and she has some cheek claiming to be well integrated when she still struggles with the English language and speaks like an uneducated older working class Singaporean. She was treated like a criminal because she broke the law by overstaying her visitor's visa - she is a criminal, not a dangerous one perhaps but a criminal nonetheless, just like a sister-in-law who isn't afraid to lie to the media and on GoFundMe. What a thoroughly rotten family they are and for them to slander the country I love? Well somebody has to stand up and speak the truth and if I have to, then okay so be it.
I have absolute faith in the British justice system.

Secondly, she then slanders Singapore, the country of my birth, where I spent the first 21 years of my life. She told such awful lies about Singapore to the media, as if they were sending her to some horrible place. I may not be fond of some aspects of Singaporean society, but I have always been very fair in the way I have judged Singapore and Singaporeans. I take the good with the bad and on balance, offer a very fair perspective on Singapore on my blog. Irene was happily married and settled in the UK in 1992 yet she willingly moved her family to Singapore - it shows a woman who likes Singapore enough to want to spend many years there and she spent a total of 43 years of her life there (she is 53 years told). She then claims she has nothing and no one in Singapore, yet sure enough, she is staying with her extended family who have shown nothing but kindness to her when she arrived there. If I were her sister, I would show up at Changi airport just to confront her for claiming that she has nothing and no one in Singapore. "Remember me? I'm your sister, what do you mean you have nothing and no one in Singapore? Am I nothing to you?" And that claim about her not fitting in because she wears Western clothes and sounds different? Singapore is such a modern, westernized country and her accent is 100% Singapore and 0% British. In fact, her English really sucks.

Okay I could go on, but I just want to get this article out whilst there is a lot of interest in the case. As usual, please feel free to leave a comment below and we can discuss it further. Let me know what you think, many thanks for reading.

Part 3 is here: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/part-3-fake-news-uk-home-office-and.html

54 comments:

  1. Hi Limpeh, fantastic blog and exquisitely accurate analysis. I agree with all your points and also quickly reached the conclusion that a big reason probably why she stayed in Singapore is the HDB or inheritance (hey she's Asian Indian (as I am too)).
    The state of British journalism surpasses itself every week in it's descent from mediocrity to stupidity. My guess is that Irene Clennell is now being held up as a case in the midst of uncertainty about EU citizens rights, ie. "ILR is not as indefinite as everyone thinks it is - Polish people take note" etc. Readers will sympathise that she is 52yrs old so getting a job or financing herself will be quite hard. Most of all, yes, the leftwing 'liberal' media have a definite agenda against the Tories (which is pointless as it falls on deaf ears with the electorate). Blatant bias and poor journalism as even the rightwing media didn't reach that level of hysteria to criticise PM Blair, they were in thrall. The Guardian (the shrillest of them all) advocates democracy and free speech, but only the type it agrees with. Unsurprising they have published an article by Irene Clennell full of holes. Good they have now removed 'facts are sacred' from the website.
    One thing I'd add, is the UK Press' underlying insinuation that she has been deported to a 'foreign far flung developing country' replete with quotes from Irene about her being made to feel different. A very deliberate ignorance of Singapore. You only need to scroll through the comments on her Guardian article to see the colonial arrogance. Either readers are stupidly unaware but most likely being defensively ignorant to admit Singapore is a more advanced country with much higher income per capita and better health and education systems to put Britain's to shame (since the British love their public services). Living here makes my home city of London feel distinctively Victorian.
    This is a reoccurring immigration theme in the British media, particularly since the liberal press love their Brown people to be poor, degenerate and down and out. There was another heart-wrenching story about a Mauritian family being deported as the daughter was about to sit A-levels. The mother had taken her two kids to England, claiming asylum on the grounds of her husband wife-beating! Of course, there were pleas and claims the kids would be deprived of a decent education etc. The local Mauritian press exposed the scam that the family had concocted the move to eventually get their kids into university, escaping expensive international fees. Of course, Mauritians - locally, and Brits like me were incensed at how their country was depicted. The Daily Mail did at least headline their article with a photo of a luxury 5* beach resort and point out Mauritius is a highly developing nation that scores highly for governance, security and is indeed, immensely popular with British honeymooners (many tried to point out the falseness of the journalism in comments). I laughed at comments about the prospect of Mauritian schooling, as my cousin in Mauritius scored much higher A-levels than what the British education system gave her peers!
    So I share your pain and disbelief for the horsepoo that the British public will lap up. Imho, it is this confirmation bias fuelled by a facebook-style 'like' approach to politics is running the UK down (the despondent public mood). Brexit is just the latest 'crisis' to exacerbate this (I will post my Brexit £350m NHS comment in Pt 1). I am glad to have recently moved to Singapore. Sure Singapore is not perfect, where is? But it is awe-inspiring modern, clean, safe and genuinely harmonious. True Communitarian, everything that so called 'proud socialists' in the UK aspire to achieve. Irene Clennell ought to be glad and happy she is back in Singapore (since she has spent most of her marriage here, curiously living away from her own family).

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    1. Thank you for your comment Shiv. I totally agree with so many things you have said. Yeah I get so incensed when I read the comments on social media because Irene Clennell is making it out like she is being deported to some horrible, nasty, poverty stricken third world country to live on the streets - Singapore is not Aleppo for crying out aloud. Nor is it Mogadishu nor Mosul. Yet the picture the British media is painting is that of the worst possible Asian third world slum city - good grief. MBS anyone? It's one of the richest countries in the world with an incredibly strong currency.

      Like I said, the state of the fake news media and the sheer stupidity of the British public leaves me in despair. I hate it when Trump is proven right.

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  2. "Look at the timing of her marriage, she could have been near the end of that visa and got married to John then to continue to stay on in the UK." So you are not completely ruling out the marriage of convenience route either i see.

    The reason why Irene failed time and again to obtain another ILR after her first one lapsed is that she is neither rich nor skilled enough to qualify for a Tier 1, 2 or 5 visa to remain in the UK. From what i understand you mentioned she could get a student visa but one of the rules of that visa is that you are not allowed to work and must leave the UK almost as soon as your study is completed (so getting an ILR from that route is all but out).

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    1. Choaniki, the reason why I am hesitant to imply that this is a marriage of convenience is that they had two children - that means they consummated their marriage. If it was purely a marriage of convenience, then it would be unlikely that they would want to have kids. It's the sex that makes babies, you know.

      There is a loophole for her to exploit - yes the time spent as a student does not count towards your ILDR (unless it reaches 10 years, I have a Thai friend who did that, but his family is crazy rich, so he just kept studying until he got to 10 years), but she can then play mother and wife and make a case to the Home Office that she has fulfilled her duty as a mother and wife, thus has a right to a family life and it would be wrong to tear that family apart. In any case, even cohabitation (married, engaged, no married) counts towards your right to stay on as a de facto common law spouse (just 2 years will do) - it's complex but that was a possible route for her to go down. The only thing is that it would be costly to do so as a foreign student - but she had the money from the sale of her Yishun flat.

      See? I'm not even an immigration lawyer/expert, yet I know how to look up information like that. Which makes me wonder what kind of shit advice Irene has been given and if she has been speaking to total idiots and morons.

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    2. Excellent analysis, I think you should take some concrete steps,to ensure that they do not get anymore money from the public and,that the money they have received should be placed in trust somehow,to only be disbursed subject to substantiation of their stories and if no such substantiation are forthcoming to press charges, if I could I would do this as I cannot stand the though of these cheats taking public money on the back of lies as I'm local Singaporean

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    3. Hi Selena, the problem with the British public throwing vast amounts of money at the Clennells is that they are not really caring that much about truth or accuracy, they are simply looking for a story that will make the government look bad. This is called confirmation bias - they love the story because they hate the government. I actually spoke to a friend who gave the Clennells a big donation and did he appreciate my information? No, he got all angry with me because I spoiled his moment - he wanted to believe in his version of the story, that Irene is 100% innocent and the government is 100% evil and in donating to Irene, he's being cheated of his money because he donated it on the basis of misinformation. Did he want his money back? No, he just wanted his money to do some good - but I made him feel stupid, ie. he didn't check the facts before donating and instead he directed his anger at me. Go figure. It is impossible to reason with people like that.

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  3. LimPeh (hah),

    Interesting analysis.

    A few points though:
    1. This may of of interest:
    https://support.gofundme.com/hc/en-us/articles/203604294-GoFundMe-Guide-Fees-Pricing

    2. The issues is so widely publicised because of a background of general concern about residency of the EU citizens post Brexit and Trump. Yes, it is a case that she failed to navigate through the rules properly. However, HO services are a bit of a hit and miss especially during recent years. You might have gone through the process smoothly, many others have ended up in the tribunal with the HO losing the cases.

    Choosing to do deportation on a Sunday attracts suspicion that the officers were trying to bypass due processes.

    It is quite possible that she is a fairly disorganised and innocent person who failed to navigate the process properly, especially back in 2003/4. (You call this my way or highway which maybe a bit harsh)
    You do not appear to have met people who are in debt and then decided not to open any letters and hoping problems will just go away.

    The story is now being driven by vested interest while the innocent (ok, or maybe not completely) just get dragged along.

    3. There is another route for them. People born in NI can acquire Republic of Ireland citizenship and go through their marriage settlement process which on paper, seems more humane. Also, UK is subjected to ECHR and it is possible for deportation order to be lifted if it infringes the ECHR protocol.

    4. I do not think your HDB theory is anything more than pure speculation though. There is also a report that she had sold her HDB in 2008.

    5. It is worrying that an MP took action based on Buzzfeed report alone :
    https://t.co/xziT1muBuG

    6. BBC did report in the same way as Buzzfeed on the first day. Fortunately, BBC did update the facts later on.

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    1. Hi Mr Lim! How are you? I stuck with the Limpeh handle because for some reason, that word really really pisses my father off - he thinks it's super rude and like for people of my generation, we don't speak Hokkien as a first language (or even a 2nd, 3rd, etc) but when we speak Singlish, we use certain loanwords and OMG it sends my dad crazy when I use it. Back to your points:

      1. OK I always knew that such sites charge a fee, so they don't really care if the cases presented on their sites are genuine or scams, as long as they get their cut.

      2. I don't know what you're basing your accusation of the HO servies being "hit & miss especially during recent years" - but my point is simple: if you follow the rules and keep your situation straight forward, then there's no reason for them to kick you out of the country as long as you've done nothing wrong. It's only these complex cases whereby okay the person has messed up but the case has some merits then you require the Home Office officials to take a closer look and make a judgement call. My point is simple: why put yourself in such a situation in the first place if there is an easier route to take?

      3. Let's look at the time line of what led to her deportation: her visitor's visa expired last year (she should have left the UK instead of becoming a de facto illegal immigrant) and she then had been in the detention center in Scotland since mid-Jan. She was deported at the end of Feb, so it was not like oh she was picked up and literally kidnapped to the airport and put on a plane out of the country. No, she had an awfully long time to prepare for this: she knew her visa was expiring last year - she ignored it. She spent 6 weeks in detention, knowing that deportation was imminent - she had a good 6 weeks to tell her lawyers that she needed help. She painted a story to make it look as if she was 'kidnapped' - okay, she should have been allowed to get her clothes and say goodbye to her husband, that much mercy could have been shown. But she has proven to be a very unreliable witness and told so many lies so far, there are so many holes in her story - so I don't even know if her story is 100% true about the way she was deported. The Home Office isn't going to issue a statement on an ongoing case, so all we have is her side of the story.

      4. You can't plead 'I'm a disorganized but innocent person' when you break the rules of immigration. Everyone is subjected to the same law and rules regardless of how organized they are or not. What is clear to me from looking at the mistakes she made was that there were clearly many, many missed opportunities (Surinder Singh) to put things right, but like the people who are burying their heads in the sand hoping for problems to go away, that's clearly not going to help you if you're in a terrible situation and need to solve your problems in a very pragmatic, practical way. You may as a friend allow someone to wallow in self-pity when they're feeling down, but how's that going to solve any of their problems?

      5. Even if she sold her HDB flat in Yishun (some people have said 2008, others 2009 - either way, that's roughly the same period), she still would've had a huge windfall from that to the tune of about £250k (estimated) - where's that money gone?

      5. She's SNP, they're loony left-wingers. I would've expected nothing less.

      6. And that's why the BBC is respectable whilst Buzzfeed is #fakenews.

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    2. I hope you are well. Thank you for your reply Limpeh. Interesting story behind the handle :-)

      1. I am concern if there are some legal merits behind her case which she/HO failed to explore. Further, there are Discretional leave and Leave Outside the rule categories. It is unclear if those were considered. As for proof of my assertion that HO gets it wrong sometimes, you may lookup the Immigration and Asylum tribunal case log website. Taking into account the right to a private family life is unfortunately, a complex matter.

      Again, allow me to clarify that we do not have the full facts here, so I cannot make a conclusion as to what should have happened.

      I am further concern about why the 2003/4 applications failed.

      I am in agreement with you that the 2017 deportation order is within the rules as she did not appear to challenge her rejection in the tribunal and by February 17, she was an over stayer.

      4. Oh yes, being disorganised is not a valid excuse and has no weight legally. However, being disorganise is different from being a chancer.

      5. She is obviously not poor. I am with you on that. However, that is another matter. The case is regarding her right to join her British spouse/family.

      6. Also, a deportation order/ban can be revoked well before 10 years if she has a valid case such as being a spouse. This has been affirmed by the Court of Appeal (and ah.. HO lost that case). Home Department v ZP (India) [2015] EWCA Civ 1197 although the case involved a minor child.

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    3. Hi Peter.

      1. Hmmm. I think any legal merits have been probably well and truly exhausted, the only question then remains is that on compassionate ground - she's after all married to a sick man, she's not a threat to society, what harm can be done in bending the rules in letting her stay? That's the only provision that I can see, it's not like you're opening the floodgates by showing some mercy in this case, like if you let her stay, then you have to let millions of others in, it's not like that at all. If she did have other legal merits to stay, then why didn't her legal team use them to help prevent her deportation? It suggests two things: either her legal team were shit, or that she refused to listen to their good advice.

      2. The whole right to a family life thing is debatable again: you have to prove that you function like a genuine family. Gosh, when the Home Office investigates this, they pry into every detail, including your SEX life. Why? Because there are sham marriages, marriages of convenience, just for the visa and it happens a lot actually. So you just can't claim, "I'm married, I have kids, I claim the right to a family life" - you have to prove that you do function as a real family and in Irene's case, she failed to do so having not brought up her kids for much of their childhood.

      3. We don't have enough facts about why her 2003-4 applications failed - the problem is that we don't have the file sitting at the Home Office and the interviewers from Buzzfeed don't ask her difficult questions, they allow Irene and Angela to simply say what they want, whereas someone like me would've grilled and interrogated Irene and dug deeper to find out more facts. Irene not only had full free reign to say what she liked, she also omitted important facts from her case that would've been detrimental to her cause and added loads of lies of course. What is she trying to hide?

      4. I think we do agree on quite a few points Peter. What's your background? You seem to have a vast knowledge on this issue (ie. UK immigration/home office etc). The thing is, being from Singapore, I'm really good at following the rules. Heck, there's even a famous Singaporean film called 'Just Follow Law' which mocks the way Singaporeans can be sooo obedient when it comes to following the rules and obeying the law, conforming etc. I am of the mindset that as long as one follows the law obediently, then what can go wrong? Things went wrong for Irene because she thought she was above the law. Yeah right.

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    4. Hello LimPeh,

      Yes, I think we do agree on quite a few points.

      I am not so sure about the legal merits as the case does not appear to have reached the tribunal. This could be because - she is disorganised, the case is very weak or the lawyers are crap, all all of the above.

      Floodgate - yes, it would. Actually, it already has. That is just UK liberal democracy way of doing things. To mitigate this, UK makes it much harder (relative to Singapore at least) for anyone to get here and make the process expensive (ILR now cost £1850) and complicated ( compare cost and services of ICA vs UKVI....)

      The issue here is that UK has a welfare state and resources are limited. I am pretty sure the hubby would get a LTVP in Singapore as her spouse fairly easily but then Singapore is no paradise for the low skills and those with limited bank balances (and S$ 200000 does not go very far at all especially if medical services are required).

      2. I agree that you need to proof as a functioning family. We do not know the extend of her involvement although she said that she could not produce any log which would perhaps sway that argument towards your argument. Still, vital facts are not known and facts about interactions between her and her husband are not known (which is more important as the kids have grown up).

      3. Quite. There are many holes and some journalists' are not doing their job properly.

      Yes, Singaporean are well known for being law abiding. But then there are all sorts. It is a city of 5 million people right?

      I am engineering by training but with deep interest in law and governance.

      Have a good weekends.

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    5. I agree the media are proving lunatic Donald Trump’s point. The BBC should never have touched this story because of the lack of facts, and 15 yrs ago, pre McCann saga and social media, it wouldn’t have.

      The visa technicalities have nothing to do with this rather straightforward case. A) The Clennells established a full family life abroad in Singapore (where the kids were born?) and B) Irene Clennell demonstrated a lack attachment to her children whilst at a young age, preferring to be elsewhere. Unusual behaviour for any mother, Singaporean or British and it’s a bit rich to declare the British authorities have deprived them of a family life. Cannot be considered a normal happy functioning family under any reasonable circumstances, let alone to grant residency.

      I see a very sad story where money plays its part somewhere (in property, inheritance, savings) and subsequently both the Singaporean and British families are torn apart. It would be socially unacceptable (and illegal?) for the Singaporean sisters not to care for their parents, yet it had to be Irene who did so, regardless of her own family commitments. What impact did that have on her children growing up? I suspect that Mr & Mrs Clennell had a grand plan but it all went horribly wrong when their kids never forgave their mother for leaving them as children. Who better to blame than the authorities?

      The problem with UK immigration is that it is inconsistent and a libertarian ‘at discretion’ approach encourages perverse behaviour and a perception held by Brits and a significant minority of immigrants that they can bend or skirt around the rules. Grates us law abiders who naturalise and integrate. Note the white Australian family who knew they were on a pilot study visa, overstayed and flouted the rules. The SNP howled at the govt and to shut Nicola Sturgeon up for 5 seconds, the Tories caved in. Ironically, the Australian government would never reciprocate with a British family who did that, white or not….heck, they have pretty stringent rules on their own citizens on sponsoring de facto visas. Thus, another underlying theme emerging is the media pitting EU vs Commonwealth in post-Brexit immigration. Some ‘liberal’ Oxbridge-educated columnists insinuate the UK is about to get ‘flooded’ or ‘swarmed’ with 1bn Indians (nevermind India requires visas from all nationalities inc. Brits and they certainly don’t open their borders with their Pakistani and Bangladeshi neighbours).

      The media circus allows the govt to message their new ‘tough’ approach, to get through to EU citizens and specific British ethnic groups that they can’t come and go and do whatever they please (as perceptions). Sham marriages are a pertinent issue as I was surprised to learn (via Fullfact.org) that 19% of nonEU immigration is family-related. Really? That would estimate nearly every single ethnic Brit, myself included, are importing their spouses – which is of course is not the case. Thus, sham marriages ended up as an EU re-negotiation issue (I never understood why until I looked up immigration stats as I was fed up with the hysteria).

      Add the significant minority of EU citizens who reside in the UK whilst their kids are back home, hence child benefit payments sent abroad. This issue was deemed serious enough to be up for re-negotiation with EU leaders, (again ‘nasty Tories’ is lazy as Diplomats like to talk security & intel not benefits). This is still slightly unresolved as Brits voted out. So what happens with these EU citizens with “a right to family life” after Brexit? Will the UK allow their CB to be sent to the EU? What if a Lithuanian mother goes home to care for their parents for 2 years? No one is talking about the practical details of guaranteeing EU citizens their rights, eg. how do you know which EU citizens are UK residents at the airport without some form of pre-registration?.

      So in this Brexit context, the Clennell case may well become political, possibly legal precedent. Expect more of this and the accompanying poor journalism.

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    6. Hi guys!

      @Peter: what I understand is that John Clennell is dependent on the free health care he gets on the NHS for his illnesses (and the UK tax payer would pick up the bill) whilst in Singapore, he would have to pay full whack. That is why he is reluctant to leave the UK, it's simply because he has no money. If Irene had known that her husband was going to be in that predicament (assuming that his health hasn't been great all along, rather than a sudden deterioration), then she could have made better plans to care for him. Let's put it this way, if an exam was important to you, then you'll study hard and make sure you know the answers. If you really don't give a damn if you pass or fail, then you wouldn't make much of an effort. Irene treated her immigration status with such careless disregard and okay, you said she's disorganized, but I hold her responsible as an adult - it's just paperwork and unlike an exam, you're allowed to ask for help!

      2. Like I said, I've British friends who have married foreign spouses and the Home Office have gone as far as to make home visits to check if they are sleeping in the same bed - why? Sham marriages are common, so whilst some may view this as an invasion of one's privacy, you have to prove that you are a real couple and it goes beyond having a sex life: you have to prove 'family life' and I suppose that was where Irene's family life and failed the Home Office's criteria. Her problem has always been "her way or the highway" - did she consider why the Home Office looked at her family situation and said no? She waxes lyrical about how nice her neighbours are and how close to her sister-in-law she is, but what about her own kids and grandchild? She's clearly not on talking terms with them - that's where the big gap in her argument is staring at the rest of us who think: there's a hole in her story. Irene's friendly neighbours do not constitute "family life".

      @Shiv

      3. I agree that the Home Office were fair (perhaps a bit harsh but fair) when it comes to ruling that this was a mother who abandoned her kids by choice when they were young and vulnerable - hence they are estranged from her and she is an Asian grandmother with virtually no contact with her grandchild? Now that's a first - Asians love grandchildren. She waxes lyrical about family yet she has no contact with her own children/grandchildren and then insults her family in Singapore by denying their existence, then grudgingly acknowledging that they exist when they take pity on her and take her in? What a liar.

      4. Number 1 on the SNP's agenda now is independence and the more they can prove that England is run by the evil Tories, the more it would suit their purpose. That's why they are supporting Irene's case, but they crossed the line when they quoted Buzzfeed's Fake News. I'd gladly say good riddance to Scotland post-Brexit.

      5. I agree that a precedent is being set in light of Brexit and EU citizens in the UK, all the more the need for quality journalism and less fake news from people like Buzzfeed. Shame on Buzzfeed.

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    7. Hi LimPeh,

      Thank you for you reply.

      Yes, we all get that they don't want to go to Singapore because healthcare is not free and there is not much safety net there. However, from pure immigration decision point of view, we should try to look at this through an inverted lense. I believe ICA would be happy to treat them as a couple even after all these years of living separetely and issue John with a LTVP. The reason of the different approach is of course because of the welfare state, which is something that is understood but few wants to talk about.

      As long a the marriage produce an issue, ICA is usually happy with that while UKVI does not. The big 'W' which theoretically should have nothing to do with an immigration decision, plays an important role in reality.

      Yes she is largely responsible for her predicament but that does not mean HO's decision is correct given that UK is a compassionate liberal democracy and there are AITribunal precedences. Her key fault that led to the deportation appears to be that she had not appeal the case to the AIT and ask for Article 8 to be taken into account as weaker cases (in my opinion) appear to have succeeded.


      You made a very interesting second point. So, was she was visited by HO officer to make sure that they do indeed live as a couple or such visits are only made to confirm a negative rather than to confirm a positive?

      Adult children are normally ignored in UK immigration practises - so in Li-Goh case, her connection with her parent is not given much weight and hence the situation she is in. On the other hand, a a parent is likely to be allowed to stay if she has a minor child in the UK (e.g. the Nigerian Triplet NHS case - I believe exceptional leave is given until treatment is completed).

      It is her relationship with he married husband that is the key issue here now. Responsible parenting does not now form part of the processing criteria. Having said that, we do not have any facts about what she did, or not did to her children (e.g. contact, money, cards etc or if contacts were prevented by some reasons). And yes, the journalist are not doing their work here to confirm the facts.

      Also there are those migrant workers (and some illegal migrant workers) who left their kid for many years in the far flung village with their grandparents. If they do get to settle, the children are likely be allowed to join despite years of 'abandonment' (again UK way of doing things).

      Have a good afternoon and evening.

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    8. Or perhaps this is simply a case of her sponsor (i.e. husband) not having an income of £18.6k or a saving of £62.5k ? Again, surprise surprise that no 'journalist' has confirmed the reason of rejection.

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    9. If this was the case, then why didn't they get this immigration issue sorted way before the rules got stricter (in 2012, that's when the £18600 rule was imposed). The rules are only going to get tighter, not the other way around, anyone (including you and I) could have told Irene that. Which really makes me wonder if this Li Goh-Piper woman actually gave good advice? Otherwise, how did Irene manage to make such a total mess of the situation?

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    10. Hello LimPeh,

      Thank you for you reply.

      Quite. For an average couple, the issue would have been sorted out in 1999, or at the latest 2003/4. A case where there is a proper marriage with issues and minor children would have been as easy as standard one exam to sort out back then :-p

      Lots of missing facts from the story unfortunately.

      There is a small chance she might get a book and TV deal and live rich in Singapore with her other half happily ever after though :-p

      Yes some EU citizens are waiting to see the outcome of the Brexit negotiation before applying for ILR and I told them if you one want, get it sooner rather than later as things will only get more expensive and tougher (unless, ironically, if UK turns into Singapore of the West...).

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  4. If you need anwsers,please email me on ireneclennell@yahoo.com

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    1. Irene, thanks for your message. I've made it clear that this is not just about you, I'm discussing what this case tells us about several issues: the British public, the immigration process, the Home Office, social media, 'fake news', confirmation bias and many other issues. It's not just about you. In any case, you and your family have lied non-stop to the media, so I really don't see a point in talking to you because you're going to feed me a pile of lies anyway and I'm not interested in that.

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    1. Anon - this comment section has to be moderated because of a high volume of spam messages. Your comment will only appear after I approve it - so I kindly ask that you be patient, I will approve all genuine comments regardless of what POV you wish to express. Thank you.

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    2. Okie dokie. 😀

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  11. Hi LimPeh,


    It seems that the comment section will not show in a desktop browser after around 20 comments (it works earlier on when comments were fewer) but it shows ok in a mobile browser. Seems to happen with your Irene Q&A 1 post as well.

    Thanks.

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    1. Peter I am replying to this on my phone, there is nothing I can do about it as it is a problem with the website.

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    3. I stress that I have not removed or deleted any of your comments, ok?

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  16. Previous reports suggest that she had been warned about deportation ( for not having a valid residency visa) but refused to leave on her own - and insisted on staying and fighting the case from home. In the UK you are typically given 28 days (now 14) to pack up and leave once you lose your residency. That's why she ended up being sent to the detention centre. But now she's acting as if it all happened suddenly and without warning. Really? Is she acting for a fake video of something? I really don't know. Which version of events are we supposed to believe? Why the surprise that this has happened "suddenly" and "without warning" ? Couldn't her husband have brought her some clothes knowing fully well that detention isn't a holiday - it typically leads to deportation? He had a whole month to pack her bags. Sounds like a standard deportation case to me if it isn't completely fabricated.

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  19. At the first reading I viewed her case in a sympathetic light. And I certainly hope it is what it is and that she does get the just and humane treatment she deserves and that this isn't just another emotionally charged media distortion of facts driven by ulterior motives. I am trying to be objective. I understand what it is like to be a British resident in Singapore with a seriously ailing parent in need of critical care. This is one reason why I visit regularly although my situation is different from Irene's but not so very different from that of other internationals who have responsibilities for ailing elderly parents.

    However I do know for a fact that there is provision for those who have no other form of support and in Irene's case she could have applied on the grounds that her terminally ill mother had no one else to care for her in this country whilst she resided abroad. There are a few hospices that care for the terminally ill (my mum's case was critical in the past but never terminal so I wouldn't qualify) but there is support for those in need depending on the circumstances, and I have always been treated well by hospitals, care homes - and (believe it or not) Immigration on both sides - especially when I needed a temporary visa extension for 'sick parent' reasons. Irene should have done her homework.

    She claims her mother was "very unwell" and she had no choice "but to stay" until she died in 1999. It's very hard when one's parent is 'dying' - I stayed on for several months one year thinking my mum wouldn't last - before things improved. But her case was never terminal.

    I presume Irene stayed on using her Singapore citizenship as a basis for remaining. But she should have looked after her UK visa too. I found myself in a similar position albeit over a much shorter time frame. I flew out on my British passport (I'm now British, no longer Singaporean) which had a three month visa limit. I extended it by going to the ICA and filling out a form. No problems at all. Irene should have done it that way rather than to take the law into her own hands and then hope for the best at the border - she had more than two years to take a short trip to Lavender. She effectively kissed her ILR goodbye in letting it lapse - everyone ought to know about the two year limit - and that's pretty generous.

    Finally. There are zillions of internationals and we all have parents who are probably one day going to need us to be around. Why should Irene's case be exceptional. However well intentioned, there's no such thing as a 'sick parent' visa. Irene's case is no different from that of any other 'overstayer'. She chose to settle for a life abroad and in so doing opted for the inconvenience of sacrificing some things for some time. We've all had to make tough decisions - because it's pointless flouting the laws that are there to protect our borders, however well-intentioned!

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  21. Limpeh,I consider buzzfeed as entertainment! I'm an ex Civil Servant who worked in media relations at the centre of UK Govt so take a nonpartisan interest in policy, politics, law and the media. I left to experience Australian immmigration as a foreign-born Brit and now passed the Singaporean system.

    To pick up on PeterLims point of UK's 'liberal compassionate' legal system, indeed it was so during the 00s Labour era when Clennell kept on failing ILR applications yet remained. The immigration agency was dysfunctional and a Home Sec publicly declared the Home Office as "not fit for purpose." Judges were philosophically very liberal in making decisions emphasising the individual's human rights and private right to family life, even when infamously at odds with the collective society (re:hate preachers). This extremely liberal-libertarian approach continued under the 'heir to Blair' Tory PM Cameron esp during liberal coalition.

    Roll on 2015 when the liberals were annihilated at election, with almost every Cabinet Minister fired by their own constituents along with the hopeful Labour Chancellor. Nick Clegg and Labour's Ed Milband resigned the day after and even the Liberal Tory PM David Cameron had his scalp claimed barely a year later, as once again the voters defied the press and pollsters and again silently voted for change within the privacy of the voting booth.

    So the public mood has shifted to conservatism, with a 'proper' Tory PM who despite unelected is incredibly popular with voters across political (tribalism is dead) and Brexit persuasions. The media has lost influence and thus power as voters ignore them, and May appeals directly to public opinion.

    Hence the judiciary reluctantly declaring the Tories £18,600 immigration rule as lawful. Clennell was the first high profile casualty and the Home Office deported on Sunday to prevent her riding the legal merry-go-round that would have seen her remain in the UK into her OAP years, that so many had taken advantage of. Not a single comment from a QC or even Shadow Attorney General Shami Chakrobatti, ex director of campaign org Liberty. The judiciary fear a public backlash similar to MPs expenses, bankers bonuses, tax avoiding MNCs and of course the media phone hacking scandal.

    You have PM Theresa May who quietly diligently studied immigration for 6yrs as the longest serving Home Sec, knows every crack and hole. Her protege Home Sec is Amber Rudd, is an accomplished barrister charged with devising a single immigration system as demanded by the public 'as tough' as Australia's. The Clennell case is gesture signalling they will turn the screws on a detached lofty judiciary. Liberal Conservatism is in, Libertarian individualistic rights is out. Much like gay marriage, mixed race relationships, equal opps won't change. Though of interest is individual vs collective in policy and law. Criminal punishment aside, will UK become a little bit Singaporean? Perhaps.The UK public is definitely swaying towards unashamedly conservative Australian thinking. Even liberal Canada is institutionally conservative, the only country in the world to demand families sponsor refugees, if unselected by govt. Immigration and lifestyle TV shows, social media and global news has showed the British you can be liberal, compassionate and expect everyone to obey the rules. Like the Tax system, UK immigration is now deemed as onerous and broken, almost written for lawyers and 'chancers' to exploit loopholes, with naive Ministers and Judges often taking a philosophically principled over pragmatic decsion-making. Contrast with how often do you read about British expats being thrown out of Singapore or Australia on global News sites? Of course those authorities seperate famillies etc but no one cares, not their politicians nor their publics if the individual has flouted the rule. Disorganised, poverty or stupidity counts for nothing. Coming from Singapore, Irene Clennell should have been mindful of this.

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  22. @Shiv (and thank you to LIFT for the forum),

    My concern is with good governance.

    I agree with you that the liberal compassionate legal system can be a hindrance to proper society goods at time. However, UK remain a signatory of ECHR and I suspect the even more liberal Strasbourg judges, who are very safe and far away from the British mob would take a even more liberal view on Article 8. However, that is the legal system that UK is in. Supporting ultra vires actions when it suits one's view/position is a dangerous thing to do. I am not so sure that the liberal values that you like and stated above with will not change. The transform of Weimar Germany to 3rd Reich was swift.

    HO rule appears to require at least 72 hours notice before removal. If the claims were to be believed, she had 4 hours on a Sunday.

    The key criteria under the current liberal UK way of doing things for a situation like this is simple:
    (i) Is there a true and subsisting marriage (adult children are ignored subjected to iii. Relatives are irrelevant )
    (ii) Can the income or saving rule be met
    (iii) Is the claimant presence detrimental to public good/interest.
    (iv) Is Article 8 infringed.

    If the above criteria are met, a fresh application for FLR(M) from Singapore would have to be granted, for an initial period of 2.5 years, extendable for another 2.5 years and then ILR. The 10 years ban will likely to fail in the tribunal if the above criteria are met. Anon research was very interesting indeed. However, in a liberal-compassionate legal system, only the above criteria are relevant. In a utilitarian legal system like that of the Singapore's the outcome may be different.

    Now, we know what Singapore has an exam orientated and spoon feeding education system and yet a few Singaporeans appear to have the ability to dissect questionable claims in. On the other hand, highly educated British journalist, and the SNP MP who is a QC have not been able to look at issues from critical angles. We also have people who donated £1000+ (so very wealthy people) to Gofundme based on perhaps flawed set of information.

    As for HO, I am afraid it has swung from let everyone in, to keep the numbers down with common senses left at home ( Given all the facts, and if we are on a utilitarian legal system, I would agree that a refusal and speedy removal is the correct outcome in this case). If you looked at this:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/02/6-times-home-office-broke-british-families-name-immigration
    (lefty publication alert)

    Only one (Irene) has been removed. HO backed down in one case (30 months extension and probably extend again if needed and then ILR) and the rest are still going through the tribunal/appeal process.

    If rules are rules than it is fine. If rules are not really rule but the state resorts to picking weaker targets to meet a target (i.e. numbers) that is a different matter. Of course, such inconsistencies also apply to foreign polices (certain kingdom appears to be allowed to do as they please), taxation (certain MNC are allowed to do as they please).




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  23. I would also further add in response to Peter's comments about UK health and welfare systems, that both Irene and John McClennell (whos not physically invalid) could likely find work in Singapore, and as homeowners could sell their UK home to fund their move. Self-financing themselves is not out of the question.

    Here in Singapore, *everybody* works, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity. I get served by 70yr old women in MacDonalds. Many supermarket staff, cleaners, landscapers, gardeners and airport staff are older, not to mention Taxi Uncles and food centre workers.

    Sure that is because of a basic social security net but I think it is as much to do with Singaporean society (based on Confuscian philosophy). Limpeh will know this much better than I do!

    It is worth noting Singapore has very high life expectancy, outstripping the UK's (on top of better healthcare system). As for medical insurance, John McClennell knows the score with this as he has lived here. Medical insurance health systems aren't as scary as Brits like to think it is, and don't forget Irene is a Singaporean citizen so will qualify for a HDB purchase or rental.

    The UK authorities really have no obligation towards the Clennells. It is their family decision whether they live apart (just for Mr Clennell to access the NHS?) or reunite in Singapore (assuming authorities haven't barred him from entering). Even from the media perspective, this case is now closed!

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    1. @Shiv, [5 March 2017 at 12:40]

      Yes, they want the easy option. We all know that. Ironically, the children may have led a more successful lives if they had grown up in Singapore.

      Singapore also has a much more accessible immigration system for anyone who is useful to Singapore.

      I do not think Victorian work ethnics were any less than the Singaporean's though. Most people will work out of necessity and in accordance to incentives rather than for fun.

      Singapore's way is simpler (except those on long term illnesses) but that is not going to happen in the UK any time soon though.

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  26. @Peter I don't disagree with you but I would point out the changing context that we are living in. These liberal laws were developed in the 18th century perhaps updated post WW2, before mass immigration. Note, Europe is facing serious issues in terms of public opinion and application on immigration.
    UK commitment to ECHR is now up for question as May is not a fan. Though it is the immigration system that will be the focus rather than the law. Any reshaping does not constitute a shift to Nazism. As I pointed out, both Canada and Australia are Western liberal democracies yet they operate very stringent and unambiguous immigration systems where human rights are still upheld. The issue is even more intense in Europe so we are likely to see some change in government's attitudes. We are in 2017, why would 20th century conventions still be appropriate? Social reform and change create history.

    I'm afraid the New Statesmen is biased, it is the left's political rag - going back to Limpeh's original point. The Civil Service is slow and bureaucratic so Sunday notification of deportation is highly unlikely. Irene Clennell has not proved herself to be clear with the facts, so fair to say her allegations and character are questionable.

    Limpeh really has done an amazing job in coordinating this very interesting discussion. Limpeh, you have a new follower hooked!

    Cheers, Shiv

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    1. @Shiv (6 March 2007 00.40),

      Thank you for your reply.

      Just to clarify - I am not saying it is a shift to Nazism. I am just saying that society's attitude can shift quickly. Your confidence that the bits that you agree with be kept while others are 'repealed and replaced' may well be a confidence that is misplaced.

      Also note the welfare state and the NHS is also part of this liberal compassionate way of doing things.

      Yes agreed- LIFT has done a good job here.

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  27. @Peter, thanks for the discussion.

    I understand your point but I do think there has been much hyperbole as the West moves away from the rather extreme end of libertarian ethics that we have seen in the last few years. Just as in 1997, liberal socialism was swept in to Blair's Britain, it is now time for change and the electoral desire is for conservatism. Democracy does not flourish without change and just as New Labour's socialism evolved from the 1970s, so have Theresa Mays Conservatives, who are hardly radical anway. The liberals became the establishment, stopped listening and indulged in echoe chamber groupthink, and thus lost the argument. They need to face up to that and I can't agree people's concerns on uncontrolled low skilled immigration and low pay economy and the desire to belong and reinforce the national soveriegn identify, hardly describes a mob mentality.

    I am one of those people who regard the high worship for the NHS as excessive. My entire family worked in it so am already too familiar with the same problems that have ingested it for decades. Yes I think there is far too much welfare spending and with household income closer to Peter, I don't want to spend my life working to pay Paul, who will never grow up and take responsibility for his health, finance and housing, and blame those who fund his lifestyle for his lack of aspiration and work ethic. I can't afford it and the UK economy can't afford it, I won't have my children pay for state excess either.

    Hence I live in Singapore. Where there is a social contract between government and citizens, and enjoyed living in Australia, the only country not to experience a recession for the last 25yrs according to the BBC, as running a budget surplus is an achievable target rather than a wild aspiration.

    I'm sorry if I sound harsh as I do believe social security is right for society. But the UK is now indeed a 'welfare state' so far and extreme from the original visions of its 20th century postwar architects. It is time for a little bit of conservatism, endless 'freedoms' and public spending was never going to be sustainable.

    Limpeh may well take a different view, having grown up in Singapore, as I see a different outcomes from a very generous welfare state. But it is great that we can have these conversations and the world would be a boring place if everywhere, and all of us thought the same!

    Best wishes

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    1. Hi Shiv, I think that we can wax lyrical about the right balance between too much or too little welfare, but the way I see it, at the end of the day, it doesn't affect me that much because my personal wealth situation is affected by the work I do: how much money I earn, how good I am at my job, how hard I work, if I come up with innovative new ideas to make more money etc. There's a part of me that is up for a good political discussion on the issue of the welfare state, then there's a part of me that thinks, "I take responsibility for my own destiny." Sorry if that's a wishy-washy answer to your question.

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    2. @Shiv,

      Thank you for your reply.

      My political view is slightly right of the centre but it looks like yours is a little bit further right to mine. However guess what, I am quite happy to live in your world (and yes, I am also the Peter in the Peter-Paul metaphor above).

      So what is your view on those expats who return to the UK and start using the welfare state when their luck runs out abroad or when it suits them?

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  28. @Peter, I'm not politically active, just that my view has changed over the years due to direct personal experiences where I have observed the perverse outcomes of the welfare system up close. Also, I was a press officer during a government which did business by press releases announcing spending - even when everyone knew there really was no money left!

    So for years, I took Limpeh's view and when I was a student, I was very much into 'social justice' idealist. My experience living away and seeing "who gets" the bulk of tax spending has changed my views.

    In terms of the NHS,John Clennell has spent 20yrs working in the UK, so understandable he wants access when in poor health. Though I do think the Clennells are more about making peace with their kids rather than being on the take. As homeowners, welfare support will be limited - hence my issue that those who pay in and "do the right thing" actually get the least back (What happened to contributionary principle?) .

    Yes plenty of expats return when they are old to access the NHS but i guess if they paid in when younger,how could this be prevented in a system that is free for all? The NHS problems are with poor patient behaviour (A&E a overnight drunk and disorderly cage) and inefficiencies (ie. Pharmacists and community care underused) rather than numbers. In the 3yrs back in the UK, I went to the doctors 1/year only if I had to. Paying for your appointment and seeing the real cost of medicine makes you think before you book. Brits are like spoilt kids who literally don't know the cost of healthcare.

    Though yes questionably, should people like Irene Clennell get free access to health and welfare when she had never even had legal status? Though in the current free-for-all system, why not? The Clennells literally want the public to pay for their legal appeal and then support both into another 20-30 yrs of old age. Yet they don't even state the full facts of their story.How compassionate can or should the UK taxpayer stretch?

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  29. @Shiv,

    Thank you for your reply.

    "Brits are like spoilt kids who literally don't know the cost of healthcare."
    Quite.

    "How compassionate can or should the UK taxpayer stretch?"
    I think the above answers your question. The voters do not have a clue and think things a free and they want to be nice until the
    issues affect them or turn up at their backyards.


    Seeing how Singapore is so well run (though still has certain downsides) and how the liberal-compassionate-need-based-free-for all is run, I too understand the problems. Of course the bulk of the state spending eventually trickle up - in UK or anywhere else in the world. So in general, I favour smaller state.

    I think I can put what I said earlier better. When the pendulum swings to the right (or left for that matter), it is difficult to know how far and how fast it will swing and you really cannot be sure that the swing will stop at EU and illegal immigration issues and does not go further. Your confidence that it will stop exactly at the point you want it to stop may potentially be misplaced.
    We therefore need to watch this change carefully. I try to look at things in a rational and objective manner rather than being locked into this left/right paradigm and so I have my concerns.

    I am not sure if the gentleman in question had really been 'working for 20 years' or if they are even home owner. Irene claimed she never claimed any state support, but the sources are silent on whether the other people who are involved in this media circus are not reliant on the state support beyond Employment Support Allowance (which has been withdrawn as John is now deemed fit to work). But of course, laws (local and international) laws are laws and they shall get what the rules allow them to have.

    The UK system is much more a 'need based' system than contributory system though. Of course, when enough of the 'Peter' down tools or moved away, the system will suffer.

    The "Why not question" - indeed so and that is why we are where we are in the UK.

    ps: There are things that I agree with Mrs May and there are that I don't. However, overall, yes, I think she is doing a good job.


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