Firstly, this Bryan Lim is a grown man. He is not just an adult but a father as well. Yet Darryl seems to think that it is okay to treat Bryan Lim like a child who has accidentally made a mistake. Firstly, if you have even bothered to read up on the saga, this is certainly not the first time Bryan Lim has been spouting his homophobic hatred online - far from it, he has even proudly boasted of the time he sexually harassed a lesbian couple in Singapore. So as you can see, this man is not just about hateful words, but will gladly follow through with action as well - he's dangerous. It is far from a silly child blurting out an inappropriate, offensive remark without thinking - quite the opposite, this is an adult who has made a deliberate effort to go out of his way to provoke a reaction from others online. Does a grown man like Bryan Lim deserve our forgiveness in this case? Certainly not, because allowing him to get away with this would only encourage others to follow in his footsteps and there is enough anti-gay homophobic hatred in Singapore already.
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| Will the justice system in Singapore take hate speech seriously? |
Secondly, it is ludicrous that Darryl can talk about his remarks in the context of 'poor timing' - is there ever an appropriate time to advocate such hateful murder of gays and lesbians? Certainly not; the same way there is no appropriate time to discuss any kind of heinous crime like murder or rape, regardless of the context - this boils down to basic human decency and a respect for the law of the land: clearly, Bryan Lim has neither basic human decency or any respect for the fact that what he is advocating is extremely illegal in Singapore. The very act of such hate speech is already illegal in Singapore, so what he has done goes way beyond distasteful, it is downright illegal. So, if you wear a lime green shirt with an orange tie to the office, yeah that is distasteful alright: but if you advocate the murder of innocent people, then that is a crime. Either Darryl is struggling with the English language (I note the grammatical errors in his post), or he hasn't bothered getting all the facts of the case - I suspect it is a mix of both factors.
If a child makes a terrible mistake like that, then the teachers as educators have a duty of care to ensure that they teach the child right from wrong. An employer however, does not have that kind of responsibility over their employees. For crying out aloud, I am an employer and I pay people to work for me. I am not their parents, I am not their teachers, I am not their nannies, I am not there to educate them or teach them right from wrong - what do you think I am, a primary school or kindergarten teacher? In case you haven't realized the difference between a primary school and a company like Cannon, one deals with young children, the other deals with mature adults. You pay school fees at the school, so the teachers can take good care of your children and educate them at school - whilst at a company like Cannon, you get paid to do a job at the company. What the hell is going on here - Darryl seems to think that Bryan Lim is a primary two student in class 2B at Cannon Primary School in Singapore. Duh. Seriously. You expect Cannon to counsel a hateful bigot like Bryan Lim and teach him right from wrong? You can't be serious - that is not their job as an employer: if Bryan Lim brings disrepute to Cannon through his actions as a private citizen, then they have every right to fire him: as in the cases of Anton Casey and Amy Cheong. Darryl has a typical Singaporean attitude - he is so very immature that he still thinks that us adults can still act like primary school students even after they have grown up.
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| Is Bryan Lim a young student in a primary school? Clearly not. |
In terms of Darryl's plea to forgive Bryan Lim, well I say, not in a million years. No way. Bryan Lim is doing the food rage Alice Fong thing - claiming that he was misunderstood rather than offering a sincere apology for what he has done. After all, forgiving Bryan Lim is a fairly pointless exercise if Bryan Lim is unrepentant and has no intention of changing his ways - rather, a far more constructive way to rid the world of all this anti-gay hatred is to hold Bryan Lim to account, make him face the consequence of his actions and remind everyone in Singapore that they have to take responsibility for what they say online, especially when it comes to inflammatory hate speech. The onus should never be placed on the rest of us to forgive the bigot when he is guilty of hate speech - no, how dare you put the onus on the victims to forgive whilst giving Bryan Lim a free pass? This only makes sense if like Darryl, you believe that it is acceptable to advocate the killing of gay and lesbians - or that it is no more than a somewhat inappropriate or tasteless remark. This makes me think that Darryl could well be homophobic as well.
Furthermore, we are not trying to change Bryan Lim's mindset when it comes to the LGBT community - he hates gays and it is naive to think that anything we can do or say to him can actually change his mindset. However, the one thing we can do is to make sure that Bryan Lim no longer breaks the law - that is one thing that is very achievable and I'm very realistic. It is not up to the LGBT community to persuade Bryan Lim to change his mind on gay issues - it is however, the duty of Bryan Lim to obey the laws in Singapore when it comes to inflammatory hate speech. It is totally wrong to expect the rest of us to be kind and forgiving to Bryan Lim in this context - never mind losing his job at Canon, I would very much like to see him be jailed like Amos Yee for the things he has said and I will be putting pressure on Canon Singapore to sack him as soon as possible for that is the only acceptable response from Canon.
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| Hate speech online must be taken seriously for it is illegal. |
The fact is Bryan Lim really needs to be taught a lesson in the harshest possible way - forgiving him will only allow assholes like him to spread more hatred in the world. The mass shooting at Pulse nightclub in Orlando didn't come out of the blue - the killer Omar Mateen had plenty of other gay-hating homophobic bigots feeling him plenty of hatred to fuel his desire to kill a large number of gays. These are not just words with no consequences, but as we have seen from the tragic consequences in Orlando, such words, such inflammatory hate speech do have very serious consequences and people do die as a result. This goes beyond offending the sensitive feelings of some people - we are talking about saving lives, 50 people were killed in Orlando because of this kind of hatred online. How many more innocent people must die before you people will take hate speech seriously? Walmart in America has fired an employee swiftly and with no hesitation for making a hateful remark on Twitter about the killings in Orlando: the only acceptable response from Canon is to do the same thing. I note that the ex-Walmart employee's remarks were less inflammatory than Bryan Lim's - it does go to show what kind of screwed up society Singapore has become when such hate speech is tolerated, even condoned.
As for Darryl's suggestion that this is was one foolish moment - that just confirms my belief that Darryl had written that comment without actually understanding the full details of the case. This certainly was not one isolated incident - but a whole series of events whereby Bryan Lim had constantly pumped out a lot of hate speech on social media, even following through with actions when he sexually harassed a lesbian couple. In any case, can you imagine if a can accused of rape or murder turns up in court with the "one foolish moment" defence? "Your honour", the lawyer pleads. "My client didn't mean to rape that woman, it was just one foolish moment. There is no need to jail him just because of that twenty minutes of action, he meant her no harm- it was one foolish moment. I urge your honour to find my client not guilty on that basis." Or how about this, "your honour, my client merely lost his temper during the argument, he didn't mean to bludgeon his wife and her mother to death - it was just one foolish moment. I hope you will find it in your heart to forgive my client and find him not guilty of double murder." How ridiculous does that sound? One foolish moment? Are you kidding? What kind of world do you live in, where adults live in a consequence free environment?
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| Law and order must prevail to protect our safety. |
Is Darryl vehemently homophobic? Is he extremely naive or childish? Or is he merely guilty of jumping to the wrong conclusion before he has even bothered reading up on the full details of the case (including what happened at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando)? I don't know - I suspect that he is probably immature and doesn't read up on the full details of the case, but whilst his plea for forgiveness is probably motivated by good intentions (I agree that there is certainly enough hatred in the world already), holding Bryan Lim to account for his actions will certainly go a long way to make the world a safer place. I think it is really naive to try to get rid of all the hatred in the world if you know anything about how evil human beings can be to each other in a consequence free environment - however, the one thing we can all do is to maintain law and order and create a very safe society for all to live in. Now that is actually achievable and we do have some countries in the world like Japan, Luxembourg and Switzerland where crime rates are extremely low - and note that in these countries, you would never get away with such inflammatory hate speech. What should we do next - forgive rapist and murderers to reduce the amount of hate in the world? What do you think will happen to the amount of rapes and murders in the country if rapists and murderers knew that they would not have to face any consequences for their vile actions? Thus by that token, I can conclude that whilst Darryl does have some good intentions, he clearly hasn't thought this one through properly and I daresay, he's probably not very intelligent either - I can see from his Facebook profile that he went to SIM, need I say more?
I shall leave the last word to my friend LM. I had a a long talk with LM last night as he is a Christian and holds a very senior rank in the police. He investigates all kinds of quite horrific crimes on a daily basis and sees the suffering of the victims of crime. LM told me, "there is a huge difference between justice and forgiveness. As an individual, sure you can forgive a criminal for what s/he has done - it is part of my faith to forgive the individual and leave judgement to God. However, let's not forget that you should leave justice to the relevant authorities - it is not the job of people like Darryl to decide whom should get punished, whom should get pardoned. No, that's my job - he needs to leave that to people like me. Without an effective justice system, there will be no law and order in society, there will be a consequence free environment where criminals get away with their horrific crimes and innocent people will suffer a lot more. My job is to keep innocent, law-abiding folks safe - that's what justice is all about and our society needs a criminal justice system to deter criminals from offending. Forgive this Bryan Lim if you want, forgiveness a personal choice for you to make but all criminals still need to face justice at the end of the day for the greater good of society."
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| LM made a difference between justice and forgiveness. |
The last I heard is that some anti-gay WAAPD supporters are telling Bryan Lim to sue people like me for defamation. Ha! Bring it on bitches, what are you gonna to do to Limpeh? Are you going to come to London to sue me? So that's it from me on this topic. It has been very hard for me to write this especially in light of what happened in Orlando - I had only just found out about a week ago that work will be taking me to Orlando in August and September. I had never been to Florida before and I had been quite excited about the trip, now the one thing I will do when I get to Orlando is to pay a pilgrimage to Pulse, maybe lay some flowers and leave a message there. So what do you think about this topic? Do you think that Darryl is right and that there is some room for forgiveness in all of this? Or should we put our foot down and throw someone like Bryan Lim in jail for hate speech? Over to you my readers, please leave a comment below. I shall leave you with a video that made me cry - it is very hard to watch, but I urge you to do so (it is just 29 seconds long) to remind you that there are very serious consequences to hate speech. Many thanks for reading.
In general, Singaporeans suck. Take a look at most public forums/discussion boards after the recent Pink Dot saga (where the government is trying to prevent foreign companies from sponsoring the event). You see ugliness from all fronts - even anti-establishment sites such as Temasek Review have many readers who, ironically, sided with the government on this topic, spewing their hateful rhetoric behind their keyboards.
ReplyDeleteOn hindsight, this fits the Singaporean modus operandi perfectly. Think back on the Rohingya refugee crisis. I believe you will never see a bunch that is anymore ignorant, insensitive and bigoted than the typical Singaporean. The only reason why you don't see hate-crimes in Singapore is because most are just too darned cowardly to act out their true feelings in real life. We are far, far off from being an enlightened society.
I can't agree with you more BFL. Do you know I wrote an extremely angry blog post on the Rohingya refugee crisis, here it is: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/heartless-government-heartless-people.html
DeleteWow the comments you have attracted with that series of articles have ironically validated your views on our "heartless government/people". What's the point in being GDP rich but humanity deficient? Totally agree with you on that!
DeleteUpon reflection, I realize that we have been brought up in racist xeno/homophobic society all along. As kids, we were threatened to behave or "mangkali will catch you". In primary schools, "gay" is a derogatory slur tossed out casually to poke fun at effeminate classmates. So much for "every creed and every race, has its own and has its place" - no wonder so many Singaporeans grow up to be intolerant, narrow-minded bigots!
... and that is why I live in the UK today and not Singapore. I knew things were not going to change in my lifetime so I left in 1997.
DeleteI have not paying any form of attention to this Bryan Lim case but I have been watching the news on the Orlando shootings. As for the Orlando shootings, I am not surprised at all that such shootings happen, given the ridiculous hate-fuelling media and the liberal gun laws in the state. Such an incident is bound to happen. I really feel for the Obama administration trying hard to pass weapon restrictions.
ReplyDeleteIt feels like the bulk of American society seems unreasonable and stupid to accept policy and law changes that will benefit them.
The term "turkeys voting for Christmas" comes to mind. I feel the same thing about our whole EU referendum thing. Get this: even those in the Brexit camp accept that for several years (we're talking 10-15 years) the UK economy will have a slump, a major recession if we leave the EU - that's a major period of readjustment to establish new trade deals before we can grow again in a new context outside the EU. For those young enough, they can weather the storm and when they are older, the economy could be strong again. But the people who are most likely to vote for Brexit are the older voters - duh. That means they are going to make their retirement even harder: they are no longer earning, pensions will be slashed and the pound will weaken. This will make the last 10-15 years of their lives a lot harder - they are voting to make their retirement years a lot worse, with a lot more hardship. WTF? It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face - they are the ones who will suffer the most if they vote to leave, yet they are the ones most likely to vote for Brexit.
DeleteStupid is as stupid does? You can't cure stupidity.
Being stupid is one thing, being ignorant and in denial is another. From what I see, the whole purpose of education is not to cure stupidity but to better inform or train people to be better informed. At least when one is better informed no matter how stupid he/she may be, he/she will at least hesitate when making decisions and be less misled by the already misinformed media.
DeleteI grieve not only for this particular shootings but also for the shootings that have occurred over the years, yet nothing has been done, and also for the shootings that will come if there is no further improvements in the legislation.
@ Wei Ping Toh:
DeleteHere I disagree with you,for an idiot with more information or education is still an idiot. Making good decision and sense comes from good logical reasoning,and no amt of information and education is going to remedy that. If anything,having more information or education would give such ppl a false sense of confidence in their own reasoning.
It is akin to giving a child having issue holding a knife a sword,in hope that the child would have better chance wielding it.
If you look more closely, you will realize that Bryan Lim is sadly only a scapegoat for the overwhelming numbers of homophobic people in Singapore who make such repressed sounding remarks against people based in race and gender. Think about the election periods when the sexuality of opposition candidates becomes fodder for nasty hate speech, and these people punting online get away with most of it. This Bryan Lim is disgusting and socially irresponsible to advocate hate, but he will not be the last Singaporean to do so....
ReplyDeleteOh I agree with what you said, it just goes to show what a fucked up society Singapore is. At least in the UK, we have laws about hate speech which means people like Bryan Lim would be arrested and made to face justice over hate speech like that.
DeleteI am too scared to speak.
ReplyDeletehttps://theinsidestorey.org/2016/06/14/bryan-lim-walks-into-a-bar/
My suspicions are that Bryan Lim will be let off with a warning at worst, because Singapore's punitive laws are targeted more at homosexuals and the LGBT community, as well as those who rock the religious boat, not so much those who take advantage of the conservative and homophobic atmosphere and social mores in Singapore to spout hurtful remarks. Think about it, the grassroots leader who asked for Amos Yee's castration is still at large.....
ReplyDeleteWe'll see - I think that at the very least, someone who makes such threats should not be allowed firearms during NS reservist activities before a thorough investigation is made and disciplinary actions taken. If this was the UK or any other civilized country in the West, then he would be arrested already. Goes to show you how fucked up Singapore is.
DeleteIt's kind of ironic because if you were to look at the general Christian or religious response in the USA where it happened, Chick Fil-A did a cookout to feed those donating blood for the victims in Orlando, and various Christian churches have been calling for members to pray for comfort and help for the bereaved. Mosques too in the area broke fast to pray for victims. It makes you wonder what went wrong in Singapore's climate to create such hateful people.
DeleteThe massive influx of foreigners, for one, probably escalated things to this point.
DeleteBesides, if you look at the numbers, the USA only became a powerhouse after over 200 years of existence, China? Over a thousand years. Singapore got to a similar point in 50 independent years, if that's not rushing to build a skyscraper and then realizing that you've cheaped out on the foundations, I don't know what is.
His hate for the LGBTQIA community is deep seated. Looking from his comments and replies, he feels his comments are justified and doesn't sound sorry at all.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, if he says he's gonna shoot PAP ministers, he'll definitely be in jail by now. He's going to be let off with a slap on his wrist. ;l
To make things even more ironic, Canon is foreign company.
ReplyDeleteThank you for posting this LIFT. It is disrespectful AF for someone like Darryl, who does not live with the daily discrimination that the LGBT community faces, to expect the LGBT to be tolerant of homophobic remarks coming from idiots like Bryan Lim. Why should the onus always lie on the marginalised communities to take a step back and be accepting of such hateful comments while bigots like Bryan Lim get a free pass for being a hatemonger? Clearly this Darryl just wants to appear like the "logical", "objective" wise man sitting on his high moral horse while ignoring the voices of LGBT people in Singapore.
ReplyDeleteThanks Delia. Thank you for being the voice of common sense again. Thank you. Darryl's argument was so illogical and he didn't quite think this through at all - Bryan Lim is not a child and Darryl doesn't seem to know the difference between justice and forgiveness (as my Christian police friend LM pointed out and explained in my article). That's why I was fucking pissed off when so many people jumped on the band wagon and liked Darryl's comment. Do these people even think before speaking up on social media?
DeleteTo be frank I did see Darryl's comment on the original post and I was probably one of those who liked his comment (though I cannot recall), but my line of thinking was more like, "so many Singaporeans make hateful remarks everyday, doesn't this open a whole new can of worms if Bryan Lim was fired? How many Singaporeans will have to be fired then?"
DeleteHowever, I agree that he should definitely be held responsible in some way, whether it is being charged by the authorities for hate speech or disciplinary action by Cannon. It certainly shouldn't be a mere slap on the wrist just because someone thinks Bryan deserves any sort of compassion.
But Delia - in a more civilized society like the UK, people do get arrested for hate speech. If you verbally abused someone on say a bus or a train, if it is caught on camera, you will be arrested. You say something inflammatory on Twitter, you will be arrested. When hateful remarks cross over into hate speech inciting violence, then damnit arrest these people and charge them - throw them in jail if necessary.
DeleteIt boils down to this simple question: what kind of society do you wanna live in?
I agree with you. Hate speech should be heavily clamped down upon. I'm so frustrated that up till today no one who has authority wants to do anything about that vile We Are Against Pink Dot group despite it having been reported by many Singaporeans so many times.
DeleteAnd that is why I left Singapore years ago - because I want to live in a civilized society. We just had news today that someone was arrested for making the same kind of death threats to a gay MP. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/06/17/man-arrested-after-homophobic-death-threats-to-gay-mp-ben-bradshaw/ Given the fact that we have had a pro-immigration left wing MP assassinated yesterday, death threats are real and can lead to people being murdered. The fact that the authorities in Singapore do not take death threats seriously - well, you can build all the skyscrapers in the world, but Singaporeans are stuck with a third world mentality. It is, quite frankly, pathetic.
DeleteNo forgiveness should be granted. Thanks for this article LIFT.
ReplyDeleteI am appalled by what Daryl wrote. What forgiveness? We the straight people are not facing such discriminations, so it is so easy to dismiss this as a poor timing or whatever insensitive remark. Who are we and what right do we have to ask our friends from the LGBT commmunity to continue to suffer? Arent we supposed to say NO to hate speeches?
We must put our foot down and demand the authorities to look into this. As you rightly pointed out, he is an adult. He is also a father. I cannot imagine how he will educate his child. I am against internet shaming but this guy does not deserve any modicum of forgiveness from anyone.
Hi Jenny. Many thanks for your comment.
DeleteDarryl is completely misguided. You remember the case of that poor Indian lady who was violently gang raped in a bus and left to die - who should you show compassion for in this case? The rape victim or the rapists? Clearly, if you show any compassion for the rapists, then you're clearly sick in the head. Well, that's what Darryl is doing now - he's asking for compassion for someone as vile as Bryan Lim who has threatened to kill gays and is completely unapologetic and unrepentant for his actions. If Darryl is a confused or stupid young person, that I can excuse. But for the many stupid idiots who jumped on the bandwagon and liked his comment, I shake my head in despair for they are effectively condoning hate speech and violence against gays. What the hell is wrong with these Singaporeans. I am glad you agree with me Jenny - thank you.
As much as you or I find Bryan Lim's homophobic comments distasteful, if a person believes in freedom of speech then Bryan has a right to voice his opinion as well. One cannot then attempt to use 'the powers that be' to attempt to punish or silence him. In protecting freedom of speech, Bryan Lim did not commit any crime (although it might violate certain laws in autocratic Singapore).
ReplyDeleteRemember, terrorists also use this 'hatred speech' reason to kill their opponents as well. The rationale that someone who spouts hateful speech should be silenced and punished is not justifiable. Hateful speech is not equivalent to violent behaviour. The problem with policing speech is that what is deemed 'hateful' can be subjective and ill-defined so much so that almost anything can be offensive to someone or some group - then what happens to freedom of speech?
The best way to counter such bigotry is to expose the irrationality of it for all to see. After all, wasn't awareness raising the method by which gay rights was fought and obtained in many countries? Singapore is still a young country, and it will take time for it to mature in terms of civil rights. Even when a society matures, as can be seen in US or UK, there will still be bigots.
I know the LGBT community is now very incensed with this hate crime and rightly so, but one needs to cool down and re-think about lashing out on (e.g., silencing and punishing) people like Bryan Lim.
Dehuty - you're wrong. Wearing an orange shirt with a green tie to work is distasteful. What Bryan Lim said goes beyond bad taste - it goes beyond being offensive, it is downright illegal. Such hate speech does have serious consequences when it comes to hate crime in our society - well, that is, if you do live in a civilized society governed by laws. Here in Europe, we have greater freedom of speech than you do in Singapore, yet we have even stricter laws when it comes to hate speech because freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to go around inciting violence and hatred. You have a very shallow understanding of what freedom of speech means - but as a Singaporean, I guess you have never really seen how to works in practice in other more civilized countries where societies have laws governing hate speech.
DeleteThis is why in the West, we have very clearly defined laws to deal with hate speech (and thank goodness for that). I agree that it is not an easy topic to tackle, but you are suggesting that we just give up and allow everyone to incite violence and hatred on the internet, effectively creating a consequence-free environment when people are not held responsible for what they say? What kind of world do you live in? And more to the point, what kind of world do you want to live in? I am glad I am writing this in London - because I despair for you Singaporeans for you do not even have the maturity to deal with such a situation.
You do not even know the first thing about how gay rights was fought and obtained in more civilized countries in the West. Of course we have bigots here (plenty of them) but the law is thankfully on our side. The battle is ongoing, everyday, for us in the West: it is a fight between rationality and bigotry. Between love and hate. And thankfully, we have won the fight to a large degree - people like Bryan Lim would have been arrested already if he dared to say such a thing in a country like the UK.
And you are in no position to tell me to cool down and rethink - I am lashing out because Limpeh is fucking furious and Limpeh is a million times smarter than you. You're just a dumbfuck from a small little HDB estate who doesn't have a clue what the hell you're talking about. Grow up, get out of Singapore, travel around the world for a while, see how life is like in more civilized societies, then come back to Limpeh.
Firstly, you do not need to resort to insults because they are just that - insults and not arguments. Secondly, you have made assumptions about me that were clearly unsubstantiated and ignorant. How did you know I am in Singapore living in a small HDB? Like you, I live in the UK. But that aside, these are not really points to the discussion here is it?
DeleteSee what the late Christopher Hitchens says about freedom of speech and the right to offend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YhEfTpCILk
Be careful what you ask for - do you realise that people who you wish to support to silence hate speech now also suggest that being gay in this day and age is a privileged position like being white? I kid you not: https://blackmillennials.com/2015/09/28/white-gay-male-privilege-might-actually-be-a-thing/
It will be very soon before you will be required to keep quiet because you are privileged as a gay man. That is, you are in no position to talk about being oppressed. When that time comes, which might be sooner than you think, how does it feel to have your freedom of speech curtailed because whatever you say about oppression for being gay is deemed hateful to blacks who deem themselves the real oppressed group and to them, trivializes their true oppression? Once again, be careful what you ask for. This is my last response in this thread. When things have calmed down for you, re-consider what I have written here.
I am not trying to belittle what you must be feeling right now. What I am saying is that an attempt to silence others will ultimately bounce back to you too. Freedom of speech is an all-or-none concept, any other version will result in it being abused for social control and the target will eventually be you.
If you want to use the freedom of expression argument to defend Bryan Lim, then gay people also have the right to respond as angrily as they wish because this is also THEIR freedom of speech. People can't be hypocritical and demand people respect a bigot's freedom of speech if they cannot respect the freedom of speech of the LGBT community themselves.
DeleteSecondly, people who use the freedom of speech excuse to spew hate speech are usually those who have no idea how their words have real life repercussions. Words have the ability to hurt and kill. Hitler used his powerful speeches to rally Germans against the Jews. Teenagers have killed themselves over cyberbullying before. Someone I personally know who is fond of using this argument turned out to be a rape advocate. So no, you can't just barge into any community and spew whatever hatred you like and then pin the responsibility to not be offended onto others. Life doesn't work this way sorry.
I will let Delia and Di deal with you - I've said my piece about you Dehuty. You're wrong, you're misguided at best and you don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about on the issues of hate speech, incitement of violence, freedom of speech and gay rights. I don't care where in the world you are, you're clueless.
DeleteI am afraid that using the freedom of speech thing is not going to work well. Sure, Bryan Lim has his rights to express his opinion. If he had simply said that he is disgusted by two same sex souple holding hands, sure that is his right to say so. He just have to respect that the same couple who were offended by his speech to have the equal rights to respond.
DeleteThe line however is crossed when the response is one that advocate violence against the one whom one felt offended by. In Bryan Lim's case, he advocated shooting. And he had boastfully admitted that he had physically intimidated a lesbian couple stemming from his hate of this. Yup, this is a guy who will not hesitate to act out his dislike. This crosses into the realm of hate speech and intimidation which is a crime. It applies both ways - if the same sex couple advocated violence back on Bryan Lim, I also will not hesitate to support that they be arrested. These are very very different issues.
Unfortunately, Singapore has recently fared badly in freedom of speech issues. An annoying brat like Amos Yee got hauled up by the police stemming from his nasty speech against LKY and Christianity. The same people who advocated raping him and chopping up his penis were let off with nary a slap. Something is very wrong here where being offended is treated as a harsh issue while being soft on threats and violence. It really shows up how screwed up the societal values of Singaporeans are.
I had consulted my friend LM who works in the police about this and he said, "yes people have the right to voice their opinions about homosexuality but homosexuals also have the right to live their lives without being threatened by violence and murder. Such crimes are very, very real in our society - people do get attacked, maimed, killed as a result of this kind of hatred, as we have seen in Orlando and it is important that we recognize first and foremost the right of citizens to live their lives in safety. Your right to voice an opinion in the name of "freedom of speech" does not override the right of innocent citizens to live their lives in safety. 'Freedom of speech' doesn't mean the freedom to put the lives of others in danger - and if you think it gives you a consequence free environment for hate speech, then it is a test of how civilized your society is when it comes to tolerating such vile hatred."
DeleteIf Bryan had incited hate against the PAP, LKY,LHL, Christians, Muslims,or any other groups, would he lose his job? Would he be jailed? Would he be run off be run off the island? Yes? Then how is this different?
ReplyDeleteDeheuty : freedom of speech is saying I am not a fan of homosexuality. I disapprove of the lifestyle. That's my freedom to say so. Inciting hate and violence is saying : I advocate the shooting of gay people. They ought to die because they are homosexuals. See the difference? It's one thing to say I don't approve but another to say gays ought to be shot.
ReplyDeleteI have always been vocal in my contempt for the PAP and LKY. I have never advocated their shooting. I never will. One is freedom of speech. The other is inciting violence and hate.
We should amend the phrase "Freedom of Speech" to "Freedom of Speech with Responsibility". Freedom of speech is only acceptable when one is willing to take responsibility of what comes out of their mouth.
DeleteFreedom of speech doesn't allow one to say things in a consequence free environment - if your hate speech leads to the incite of violence against innocent people, then it becomes a crime. It is that simple and that's how it works in the West. It boils down to the fact that innocent people of whatever social group have the right to live their lives without fear, without the threat of violence. Your freedom of speech has to be balanced with their right to live their lives in peace, without threats of violence and murder. Singapore is hardly a shining example when it comes to the freedom of speech.
DeleteI thought 'Freedom of Speech' is 'the freedom to say "I hate black people." and not be arrested by the state for it.' Sure, the nearby black people could beat the shit out of you, but as long as the police are not called in to arrest you, then that's alright.
DeleteSingapore though...
Bro, that Bryan Lim guy was an ex-MOE Maths and Physics teacher and is evangelical. He knows what he's talking. Canon must fire that asshole.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. Thanks Bobo.
DeleteI think it goes to show how much hatred there is just oozing out of the Christian church. People talk about fundamentalist Islam and radicalized Muslims - I fear the Christians more - look at Bryan Lim, the evidence speak for itself.
DeleteRest assured that not all Christians are like that. At my Catholic parish, we are reminded over and over again to be tolerant and to accept all humankind whilst holding our values steadfast and true. We would never call for the harm or death of anyone be he/she gay, Muslim, or pro-choice. Christians like Bryan are a disgrace to the religion. They act not in the interests of the Church but on their own evil motives.
DeleteThanks Di.
DeletePart 2: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/q-hate-speech-law-order-and-civilized.html
ReplyDelete