Wednesday 1 April 2015

My moral dilemma with three friends in my life

Hello all. Please allow me to blog about something other than LKY or Amos Yee for a change today. I am facing a bit of a moral dilemma and let me share this with you my dear readers. Now I have always considered myself to be a very open-minded and liberal person, I am tolerant of people who may not share the same point of view as myself and would always choose to use my powers of persuasion if I feel that they're not quite right. Now I have three friends in my life who have been very good to me - all three have gone out of their way to help me in the past when I needed help and I am a loyal friend who never forgets that. I value people who are willing to be kind to me and I certainly do want them as my friends. Herein lies the problem. I really have a problem with some of their beliefs and actions.
I am conflicted with these three friends.

Let's start with Jeremy - not his real name of course, I got to know him through work a while ago and he has been a very pleasant colleague to work with. Jeremy told me point blank, "I don't believe in evolution. It can't possible be true." Oh dear. He is actually one of those Christians who believes that the earth is about 10,000 years old and that 'god' created man, we didn't actually evolve from apes over a much longer period of time. Aaargh. Where do I even begin? Look, I have plenty of friends from different religions and different cultures. And whilst I am an atheist, I do not impose my views on them as long as they do not impose their views on me. But the well-educated, rational person in me wanted to debate Jeremy on the theory of evolution - not so much to challenge his religious views, but at least from a scientific perspective. He said some pretty ill-informed things about Charles Darwin, he is condemning the theory of evolution without actually understanding what it is or how it works! If not for the fact that we were both rushing off somewhere when he made those remarks, I may have actually started an argument. I think Jeremy is a nice enough person and a good friend - but good grief, don't get me started on how I feel about his perspective on evolution.
I don't want to argue with Jeremy over religion.

Now, please meet my friend Oleg (again, not his real name). I have known him through gymnastics and he is an extremely nice person - we share a passion for gymnastics along with winter sports. Like me, he is also multilingual and I found that we have a lot in common. He has also been extremely helpful to me when I got injured by taking me to the hospital. Here's what I found out: Oleg does drugs. Like he's not quite a junkie - he's got a good job and is quite well off. It's just that on weekends, he would go out partying and sometimes he indulges in recreational drugs. Now here's my problem. A part of me really wants to tell him not to touch drugs for they will destroy his life and they are really bad for him. I guess I'm very Singaporean from that perspective - I do take a very strong stance against all forms of drugs. Another part of me is worried that if I spoke up, it may harm our friendship and perhaps I didn't know him well enough to pass judgement like that - I have no idea just how receptive he would be to such a message either.
Oleg and I both love gymnastics.

Then finally, there is Frank (again, not his real name) whom I have known since 1997. Like Oleg, Frank is also a very successful professional with a good job. My problem with Frank is that he does bareback sex - he tells me that he can't feel a thing with a condom on and that sex without a condom is much more pleasurable. Frank is a gay man who has an active sex life and unlike with Oleg, I have voiced my disapproval about the fact that he doesn't like using condoms. What about AIDS? He replied, "if I get it, so be it. You don't really die from AIDS these days. Everyone has got to die at some point." Yeah but what if you do have HIV and you're spreading it to the person you're having sex with? He then said something like that other person has the choice whether or not to go through with the sex without a condom - it is not like he is forcing anyone to have sex with him without a condom. It frustrates me that I cannot change Frank's mind on the issue - he's older than me and his mind is made up.

So there you go - that's three friends: Jeremy, Oleg and Frank (not their real names I stress) who have confused and frustrated me in equal measure. You see, I do pride myself in being able to communicate with a wide range of people, not only am I able to overcome linguistic boundaries with my skills of communication, I am also able to express empathy with people from a wide range of social backgrounds and find common ground with them. But good grief, I find Jeremy's view on evolution extremely disturbing, I am itching to express my extreme disapprove of Oleg's use of recreational drugs and don't get me started on Frank's irresponsible behaviour. I like these guys, they have all been very good to me at various times in my life and I am grateful for that. What do I do? Should I speak up or not?
In the case of Frank, I have spoken up and found that I simply couldn't change his mind and it did make things somewhat awkward. He could sense my frustration of course, but it was clear that I wasn't going to change his mind on the issue.  I fear that if I spoke up with Jeremy and Oleg, I would simply get the same response. What would be the point of me speaking up then? Or should I have enough faith in our friendship to believe that they should be interested in what I have to say about these issues, even if my agenda isn't specifically to change their minds? Can't we talk as friends, as well-educated adults who may have a different opinion but are happy to have a mutually respectful conversation about the subject?  I certainly don't expect all my friends to agree with me on every single issue - I would have very few friends if that was the precondition I would set for friendship. But nonetheless, it does frustrate me as I still don't quite know what to do with Jeremy, Oleg and Frank.

Any suggestions? Please let me know what you would do with friends like that. Thank you very much for reading.
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20 comments:

  1. Anonymous1 April 2015 at 11:41

    For Jeremy, just accept his thinking is like that and just to avoid the topic of evolution because I got this feeling if you argue with him, the argument will go on forever.

    For Oleg that does drugs, I thought doing drugs is pretty common in the West? In the Netherlands, it is already considered legal to smoke weed in some places. You can talk to him casually about the harmful effects of drugs but if wants to continue, just let him be and it is fine as long he does not force you to partake in it. Even smokers continue to smoke even though they know it is harmful to their health.

    As for Frank, this guy is taking a huge risk. You can tell him about this HIV prevention medication called Truvada that was originally used for suppressing HIV virus in HIV positive people. As long he take it regularly, his chance of getting HIV is near zero. The medication is expensive though and I am not sure UK sells Truvada. Even then, HIV isn't the only STD he can get. There are other equally nasty diseases such as syphilis, Hep A and B.

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    1. Limpeh Foreign Talent1 April 2015 at 11:58

      Hi there, thanks for your comment. It is really nice to know I can use my readers as a sounding board when I don't have all the answers!!

      1. With Jeremy, on one hand, I want to respect his religion and his right to believe in whatever religious doctrine he chooses. On the other hand, he doesn't even have the basic facts about evolution to begin with and I don't know what kind of rubbish they are feeding him at his church and I'm like, hang on a second Jeremy, you come across as quite a well-spoken, educated person. How can you actually have such a huge blind spot when it comes to the theory of evolution? What gives? And yes I have avoided the topic since...

      2. As for Oleg, yes you're right, the West does have a far more liberal attitude towards drugs and it is not uncommon for young people to pop the odd pill when going partying on the weekends. It doesn't make them junkies who are addicts, shooting up in some dirty alleyway. For the record, Oleg and I see each other in the gym and occasionally outside and we have never gone partying together - so he has never ever asked me to take drugs or offered me any. But yeah, now that you have mentioned - I actually do have friends who are smokers as well and I face the same dilemma with them really. A part of me wants to tell them to stop smoking but another part knows that they won't listen to me and it would just be awkward picking a fight you can't win.

      3. As for Frank, sigh. How can a seemingly well educated person with a good job indulge in such foolish, stupid, dangerous behaviour? I have tried nagging at him about the whole STD thing - he said that if he gets something treatable, then he will go to the STD clinic. If he gets AIDS, he's happy to accept his fate. He even points out as a counter argument that I do gymnastics - a sport where I can get injured (more often than I like) and I can break bones etc, and I do take a calculated risk each time I do gymnastics. Frank is reasonably good looking, has money and can still have a pretty good sex life if he wants to play the field - but what if he does get AIDS, becomes ill and unable to work: his looks and money will be gone and that would be a pretty miserable way to go.

      I don't know - for me, I would rather compromise the physical pleasures of sex by using a condom than to risk getting STDs (especially AIDS). It's a no-brainer for me, I don't even need to think about it. That's why Frank frustrates me, as I would have assumed that a smart guy like him could be more rational. Sigh.

      Thanks mate.

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  2. emily91911 April 2015 at 14:47

    haha limpeh i dont think you should say anything. i used to be like that too, but then i realized that as long as they are informed adults making decisions from their own lives... well, life can be fucking shitty sometimes , so who am i to stop them from doing things they enjoy? i think it is fairly fruitless to strain the friendship over this lah.

    for religious friends...just dont talk about this with them. it is almost impossible to change their mind.
    of course if they are doing this uninformed or due to depression or some other issues I would probe, but i feel you should just enjoy your friendship with them.

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    1. Limpeh Foreign Talent2 April 2015 at 01:46

      Hi Emily. Thanks for your comment. I don't think Oleg or Frank are depressed or have other issues - they just think it's okay to do what they do. Kinda like the way my smoker friends think it is okay to smoke regardless of what I say.

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  3. Kevin Jang1 April 2015 at 16:01

    I don't think that you need to talk about those issues with your friends if you have done that a few times before. After all, imposing your values on them is likely to strain the relationship. I have a friend who has a partner in Australia, and well, when they go traveling abroad, they each engage a male 'rentboy' or prostitute although it is illegal in those countries. From the point of view of someone against human trafficking, I ought to say something against it, but to begin with, they already know that I object to it. No amount of convincing that I do is going to convince them that this only makes the human trafficking crisis in that country worse by adding to the demand (and supply) in it. We are all adults anyway, and if anyone makes a mistake, it is their responsibility and call to answer for it. We cannot 'nanny' someone else's behavior or thoughts.

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  4. Shanester1 April 2015 at 16:23

    Hi Alex, you must really feel and care for these three friends to be in such a dilemma. For Jeremy, you can't do much if he isn't willing to come out of his bubble wrap world of procreation. Besides, his staunch beliefs in this aspect will not result in him being a completely different person am I right? He is still the same lovely Jeremy and there must be a lot of other positives about him which makes you feel you need to liberate him from that ignorance. Will that make him happy? I don't think you can force things. Just like respect is to be earned, belief has to be experienced, not demanded.

    For Oleg, he is an adult. As he has never expected you to join him in his pharmaceutical party, that is fine. You can't really stop him and about the only advice you can suggest is that he better be sure he gets his pharmfun from a reliable and known source so he doesn't go into OD. At least he is not shooting opioids and benzos up his veins. In my old job in the hospital, you won't believe how many junkies were regulars in the wards because they ended up with infected heart valves or developed lung embolism as a complication from the shooting habits.

    For Frank, you just have to accept that he has a different risk appetite. Your intentions are good but he has his own value judgment on whether barebacking is ok or not. Unless he is having sex with a minor, the sex partners are similarly consenting adults and they both know the risk. He is right that they can always say no, that if they do not engage in bareback, then sorry, no fuck. That is the life of being adult, you have your privilege but if you screw up as a result of your conscious decision, then it's also your burden to bear.

    They should be very happy that you actually care enough to feel concern, so kudos to you.

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  5. Di Talasi1 April 2015 at 18:29

    Alex, even thoughI am a Catholic, I do not dispute the theory of evolution. We are neither required nor forbidden to believe in evolution. All that is required of me is that I assert there was an original man and woman from whom all subsequent humans came from. I am not very eloquent in reconciling the two sides, but I never felt the need to believe in one and not the other. I don't know which denomination Jeremy belongs to, but some Christian denominations do dictate belief in one or the other. Anyway, you can stay friends and lay off the topic. If he is dogmatic about it, it can be infuriating. Change the subject.
    Oleg and Frank --- you can't control what people do. You can only maintain your values. Say your piece and tell them you care. When they are ready to listen, yours will be one of the voices they hear. If they drop you as a friend, so be it. Tell him you meant well.
    Like Shane said, they should be happy you care this much. The ball is in their court.
    PS: thanks for teaching me the meaning of bareback sex. I had no idea before this! LOL!

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    1. Limpeh Foreign Talent2 April 2015 at 01:43

      Hi Di, thanks for your comment.

      If you are in a faith, committed, monogamous relationship then there wouldn't be a need for condoms (well, unless you wanna prevent pregnancies). But the standard protocol if you wanna have an active sex life with loads of different people is that you not only protect yourself but those you have sex with, so nobody ends up with a nasty STD. How can one put physical/sexual pleasure ahead of one's long term health and well being? Sigh.

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    2. Di Talasi2 April 2015 at 03:35

      I know, my dear. However, what can one do? They are grown adults. Perhaps host an intervention if there is a group of mutual friends? If not, there is nothing you can do once you have stated your concerns and disapproval. You are a good friend, and I hope they know that.

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  6. Ivanovich2 April 2015 at 05:42

    Hi limpeh? What kind of Christian is he? I mean from which denomination?

    I know exactly what you mean. It's impossible to convince these people. That's how strongly ingrained their religious preconceptions about the origins of life are. If you show them evidence or studies on the matter, they'll dismiss it without even superficially analysing them (confirmation bias).

    I say just let it rest. It's not really important whether he believes the earth is 10000 years old or 4 billion, is it? However outrageous the former is haha. I think if I were you, I'd just avoid the topic altogether, as I do with my conservative, irrational religious friends.

    As for the other 2, I'm not sure what I'd do myself so I can't comment.

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    1. Limpeh Foreign Talent2 April 2015 at 14:42

      Hi Ivanovich, I have no idea and quite frankly, I never asked about his religion. Being an atheist I tend not to impose my views on others as it is a controversial topic to say the least - ie. for me to say, "I don't believe in your god and I think you're wrong to do so". I keep my views to myself on that issue. The whole reason why we got talking about creationism/evolution etc was because we were talking about which British people are featured on our currency notes and someone said, "what about Charles Darwin?" We then talked about our views about Darwinism and that was when Jeremy revealed that he completely dismissed the theory of evolution. I felt the need to challenge him - but as we were all leaving at that point and I wasn't the only person there, I chose to bite my tongue and let that one pass. So no, I don't know what kind of Christian denomination he belongs to. What I can tell you is that what he said about evolution was completely based on what he was taught at church as opposed to what the scientific community has learnt about the earth's past. So who do you wanna listen to? Your preacher or the world's best scientists?

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  7. MC5 April 2015 at 15:51

    Hi, I am like a Jeremy as well. I am well educated in the sciences but I hold views on evolution that would surprise you. Actually, many qualified scientists do as well, and you can check out some of the explanations at creation.com if you are curious enough to try to figure out why pple might hold on to such "strange" views :)

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  8. Unknown5 April 2015 at 17:23

    To the Christian, say nothing for his mind is already made up, no amount of evidence or convincing will sway him. Think of him as a climate change denier....

    To the recreational drug user, well its not a big thing because we as Singaporeans have been led to believe drug use is always bad but new research (http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/371/ille/presentation/alexender-e.htm) suggest that drug use does not always lead to abuse/addiction. People who are addicted to drugs do so because of underlying problems in the first place. To me, usage of narcotics is no different from usage of alcohol as long as it is in moderation, I dont really care.

    For the bareback dude, again nothing much you can do. He is addicted to the feel of raw sex and playing a dangerous game of Russian Roulette. Maybe read up on the side effects of HAART and tell him that although HIV is not a death sentence the side effects of HAART include liver problems, skin issues, bloating, nausea, vomiting, night sweats, insomnia, nerve damage etc these are all unpleasant and will impact his quality of life. Not to mention the cost, although its cheaper now but if you factor in the cost over the next 30-40 years of life its quite significant. Other things to consider is that HAART predispose you to liver failure due to the effects of daily drugs to keep AIDs at bay. I imagine most gay people are conscious of their body and image, HAART has this nasty side effect of making you fat, imagine no more six pack abs....

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    1. Limpeh Foreign Talent5 April 2015 at 20:07

      Hi there - you see, there is a comment from 'MC' above who is trying to draw me into a debate about creationism and I'm like... what good would it achieve? You're clearly not going to change my mind and I'm clearly not going to change your mind - having any kind of debate would only antagonize the relationship and whilst I am very open minded about religion (and have friends of all religious backgrounds), what good would engaging a Christian on the subject of creationism achieve?

      As for the drug user... I don't know, I also feel strongly about the use and abuse of alcohol, tobacco and even food ( = link to obesity, abuse of food, overeating) ... Hence I feel uneasy when I know that Oleg is happily indulging in recreational drugs. If I didn't like him as a friend and cared for him as a friend, it would be easy for me to ignore it. But I do like the guy and feel I need to steer him away from drugs...

      Lastly, Frank is already fat. Oh yeah I knew him when he was thin but good grief, he's gone fat and bald in the last few years. And it's not like he doesn't know about all these things you're talking about - he's educated, he's not ignorant, but then again, i have highly educated friends who still smoke... where do I even begin?

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    2. MC6 April 2015 at 08:24

      I am not here to debate you, this is wrong place and time. You expressed an instinct to debate and argue with Jeremy and were wondering about how to deal with it, and I am just giving an option for you. Either you can ask him about his beliefs (as with any other religion/belief system) or you can also read up more if you wish... or you can just ignore it completely - but you did talk about it in this post !

      If he is read up on the topic himself (vs merely being 'indoctrinated'), he probably wont mind debating you, and expects that his view is not commonly held... as it stands, regarding your friendship with him, you are much more horrified by him, than him by you. Hope this clarifies my intention in saying what I said here

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    3. Unknown9 April 2015 at 12:27

      With Oleg the druggie, its a case of your world view vs his world view. In his world view and certainly most westerners, drug use is no big deal. However for us Asians with our Asian upbringing we associate drug use with dregs of society and scums. Perhaps its time to adopt another point of view. Just as one can die easily from alcohol overdose, one can die too from drug overdose but you only see drug overdose cases in the media because of the intrinsic bias against them. There is alot of good articles about the War on Drugs and why it has failed and why it will never work, perhaps you should seek them out for abit of light reading in your spare time.

      For Frank just leave it as it is, no sense spoiling your friendship with him while trying to enforce your point of view on him. Some men are just addicted to that feeling of raw sex and nothing will change that. Just be a friend and a listening ear...

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    4. Limpeh Foreign Talent9 April 2015 at 15:01

      Hi there. Yeah I just saw Oleg last night and we chatted but the issue of drugs never came up - I like him as a friend and am concerned for him as a friend, but I also recognize that what you said is totally right as well. It is the Singaporean in me that has such an adverse reaction to any kind of drugs, it was drummed into my head for so many of my formative years growing up in Singapore.

      As for Frank, sigh, it's a lost cause. I've said my piece and he won't listen. What else can I do? Sigh.

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  9. MC5 April 2015 at 21:57

    I'm not here to debate you. You can either find out more if you wish, or ask him about it (such as, why does he believe such things). If not, then you font ever have to bring the issue up again if you don't want to.. The point that you said was that you instinctively wanted to debate him and had trouble thinking properly about him... As with any other relationships and belief systems, if you are interested in befriending someone you can find out more about them without debating or agreeing w them
    (I'm really not interested in drawing you into a debate as you are suggesting, wrong place wrong time)

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    1. Limpeh Foreign Talent6 April 2015 at 11:13

      Thank you for your comment MC. I am not here to look for a fight and indeed, I don't want to disrespect or upset 'Jeremy' by telling him my feelings about evolution. Likewise, I appreciate your input but don't want to disrespect you either.

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