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| Do you know which friends will be there for you in your hour of need? |
Tonight I went to the gym and was a bit disappointed that two of my German friends who usually turn up for training on a Tuesday night did not show up - I had been hoping to run my German lines with them (and we did just that last Tuesday). I know that they would be glad to sit down and help me; you see, I have already memorized all my lines, I now need to work on my pronunciation and it would be great to have a native speaker of German to listen to my lines and correct my mistakes. However, one German speaker did turn up - let's call him HS (which is short for half-Swiss). HS has a Swiss father and English mother and he speaks German fluently. German is one of the national languages of Switzerland - it is spoken by 73% of Swiss nationals as their first language.
Now I am not close to HS admittedly, I knew him through his sister (who was also a gymnast) and we have passed each other in the gym for about 10 years now. We are friends on Facebook and we would say hi to each other when we see each other in the gym - but it's not like I would hang out with him or make plans with him for the weekend, no we simply are not that close. We're not 'social' that way, just acquaintances with many mutual friends I suppose - according to Facebook we have 28 mutual friends. Now I had assumed that HS would be happy to help me with my German and when he showed up at the gym, I asked him if I could run my lines with him. To my shock, he said no. "I am here to train, not listen to you run your lines. I'm not interested." My response was, "Fine then. I'm only asking, you're not obliged to help me." I then walked away in shock, not quite able to fathom what had just happened.
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| I needed help with my German. |
Of course, my pride was hurt - I didn't think it was a big favour: all I had asked him to do was to spend a few minutes listening to me recite my lines in German to him, that process would have not taken very long at all. But it was more the way he refused me so bluntly - ouch, it was so abrupt, it was verging on rude. He didn't even make any effort to refuse politely or make any excuses, it took me by shock. I guess I was also disappointed that he showed zero interest that I was going to do TV in Germany as well, that was my ego being bruised as well (and yes I went through the same thing with my parents who are equally disinterested). Fortunately for me, one other gymnast overheard our little exchange - let's call her Evita as she is an Argentinian gymnast. She speaks several languages fluently including German and she offered to help me. She apologized for having a South American accent when she spoke German but I could tell that her German was of an exceptionally high standard.
So I sat down with Evita and ran my lines with her a few times - she corrected my pronunciation. Now that I have memorized the words, I am simply galloping ahead at breakneck speed in German and sacrificing diction in the process. She made me slow down and pronounce each word more carefully, so as to improve my diction. She had even offered to put me in touch with another German friend of hers for further practice. Here's the most interesting part: I hardly know Evita. I must have ran into her no more than maybe 4 or 5 times in the gym since she started coming a few months ago and yet she was more than happy to take the time to sit down with me and help me. HS whom I had known for 10 years on the other hand, couldn't even be asked to say no to me politely. Who would have thought? I guess the willingness to help another person depends far less on how long you've known someone or how well you know them but rather on their personality. Are they the sort of person who would gladly help someone without expecting anything in return? Or are they going to pause and think, "what am I going to get in return if I helped you tonight? What can you give me in exchange for my help? Nothing? Oh. Then I am not interested, go away."
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| Evita gladly helped me without asking for anything in return. |
This reminds me of another incident from 2011. You see, back then, I was working for a company from Luxembourg which was trying to expand into the Singaporean market and they had put me in charge for making the first contact with potential local distributors. It was a frighteningly difficult job as I didn't have any contacts in Singapore beyond my old friends - so naturally, I had turned to them for help. I had asked a few of them via Facebook and some people responded, others ignored me but one guy took exception to my request for help. Let's call him Lao Tongxue since he was my old classmate from RI. Now he wrote something like, "We haven't spoken for years and now this? What makes you think it is appropriate for you to ask someone for help like that? Why should I help you? Is this how you view old friends - just people you can use when it suits you?"
And I was like, woah, come on Lao Tongxue, you don't have to help me if you don't want to but I didn't think you would be upset or offended if I simply asked. And you could have either ignored me or said no - but there is no need to overreact like that, especially since we are old friends from secondary school. But before I could respond, he had deleted and blocked me on Facebook - woah. I didn't think that asking him for help was such a big deal, but he clearly felt very strongly about it. Crikey. At least I had better luck with this other old VJC classmate who told me to speak to a friend of his - let's call her Ms DW. My old classmate said, "I am so crap at things like that but speak to my friend Ms DW, she is really great at networking and knows loads of people in that industry, so maybe she can help you out."
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| Ms DW was great at networking. |
So I wrote Ms DW one of those awkward messages like, "Hi Ms DW, you don't know me but we have a mutual friend who said I could ask you for help..." Next thing I knew, she added me on Facebook and then gave me names, emails, phone numbers - offered to help set me up with various potential distributors and even offered to take me out for a meal when I was in town. I couldn't believe it - I have never met this woman before yet she turned out to be incredibly helpful and friendly. Far more so than Lao Tongxue whom I had mistakenly believed to be a reasonably good friend (well we were good friends back in secondary school). Go figure: I had known this guy from RI since 1989 but asking him for help was out of the question. I hadn't even met Ms DW and she was already going out of her way to help me just because we have a mutual friend? Sometimes life just doesn't make sense. (Oh and yes, Ms DW and I are still good friends today.)
Turning back to HS from my gym - like why should he care if I need to practice my German or if I am going to be on German TV? It doesn't affect his life, I am not a close enough friend to him for him to feel any kind of connection to want to get involved by helping me. I then realized, shit, I have no idea what he does for a living - I think he was coaching gymnastics for a while then I heard he got another job this year but I can't remember what it was. Like I didn't even bother to find out, yet I just assumed that he would be interested in me doing TV in Germany (because he spoke German and may have heard of the programme I am doing?) Perhaps that was me being overly presumptuous. Clearly, I had made an error of judgement and it surprised me, as I thought I was quite good at reading people.
I had tried to think about why he refused to help me, I even tried to start making excuses in my head like, maybe he was having a bad day or maybe he just wasn't feeling well - then I thought, stop it, you're making up stories to make the world seem like a nicer place. Why can't you just accept that HS decided against helping you and he is not obliged to help you: he is well within his rights to refuse to help you and if that means sending you the message that he doesn't consider you as his friend, then you would be a stupid fool to ignore that message. Evita on the other hand, has sent out a message that she wants to be your friend and would make an excellent friend. Why should I be making excuses in my head for HS when I could be spending my time and energy getting to know Evita better? (I've just added her as a friend on Facebook in fact.)
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| I had made an error of judgement with HS. |
I had tried to think about why he refused to help me, I even tried to start making excuses in my head like, maybe he was having a bad day or maybe he just wasn't feeling well - then I thought, stop it, you're making up stories to make the world seem like a nicer place. Why can't you just accept that HS decided against helping you and he is not obliged to help you: he is well within his rights to refuse to help you and if that means sending you the message that he doesn't consider you as his friend, then you would be a stupid fool to ignore that message. Evita on the other hand, has sent out a message that she wants to be your friend and would make an excellent friend. Why should I be making excuses in my head for HS when I could be spending my time and energy getting to know Evita better? (I've just added her as a friend on Facebook in fact.)
When I was last in Singapore, my nephew showed me some science project he was doing at school. I wasn't particularly interested in what he was showing me but I did him the courtesy of pretending that I was interested. I smiled, listen and nodded a lot, I said all the right things to him. I guess for a young student in primary school, his science project was probably his pride and joy and meant a lot to him - and he assumed that others would be equally interested in it. That's just the way I am with my German TV project, as it is such a big deal to me - I had also, like my naive nephew, assumed that others would be interested and excited by it, but of course, there are some people (like my parents and HS) who may just shrug their shoulders and tell me that they're not interested in it at all. And it's well within their right to do so - nobody is obliged to show any interest in what I do. I should not get upset with them but instead, be grateful for people in my life like Evita and Ms DW who are more than happy to get involved in such a positive and constructive way. Trying to identify people who would make very good friends is key in this process.
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| Dp you know whom you can rely on? |
I guess I just have to be more careful about figuring out who takes an interest in what I do and who doesn't - but life doesn't make this process easy for me. Some people whom I have known for a long time (like my parents, Lao Tongxue and HS) couldn't be asked to take an interest in what I do whilst others whom I barely know have been so incredibly wonderful to me: like Evita, DW and this wonderful guy called Max from Los Angeles who wrote me a long, thoughtful and encouraging message yesterday. Wow. Isn't it strange?
I'm thoroughly confused, boy I really am. And I am still trying to figure all this out. Are you as confused as me or have you figured all this out already? What is the logic or is there any logic behind all this at all? Are you just as confused as me when it comes to this? Please feel free to leave me a message below, thank you so much for reading. Danke!
I'm thoroughly confused, boy I really am. And I am still trying to figure all this out. Are you as confused as me or have you figured all this out already? What is the logic or is there any logic behind all this at all? Are you just as confused as me when it comes to this? Please feel free to leave me a message below, thank you so much for reading. Danke!
If I was your Lao Tong Xue, I would really get the impression that you're using me.
ReplyDeleteWhy? You probably only talk to me when you need my help. Like a few of my previous use-and-dump relations with my CCA mates where they only talk to me when they need props from my house...they were so nice at first, but it turned cold after they got what they wanted.
If it's a friendship, you have should maintain it.
Now LOF, I don't think it's fair to compare. Your CCA mates were never really friends with you to begin with, they are only nice to you when they needed your help. Now with Lao Tongxue, we were really good friends all through secondary school, JC and then we even saw each other socially throughout my army days as we had loads of mutual friends.
DeleteThen I went to study abroad and back in those days, we didn't have social media, we didn't have Facebook and I actually wrote some letters on paper, put them in an envelope and then had to go to the post office and get a stamp for those letters. Oh yes those days. It was very hard to maintain friendships like that when I was in Europe and yeah people lost touch with their old friends. Heck, even when the guys went to the army and the girls went to university, we all lost touch with each other then without the help of modern social media.
Then came the age of Facebook and we slowly re-established contact with each other after all these years and for many of us, we simply picked up where we had left off from years ago and rekindled our friendships.
It's hard for you to understand given how young you are and you had never been through the 80s and 90s, the pre-internet age - but I had been good friends with Lao Tongxue then and I knew that back then, if I had asked him for help (or if he had asked me for help) we would have helped each other. I just assumed that nothing had changed - but clearly, he didn't feel the same way.
So here's the difference LOF: I had assumed that my old friend still valued our friendship as we were VERY good friends back in the 80s and 90s (a long time ago, before you were born) - but in 2011, he didn't feel the same way about our friendship. You on the other hand, were never friends with these people in the first place. They just wanted something from you - but you had never been close at all.
Thus, it's not a valid comparison.
I never really bother much about old-time 'friends' from high school, since they are more like 'frenemies'. Think about it, if we never kept in touch(and I am not talking about losing touch and all the various small details such as relocations and all), then when we get back together again to 'catch up', their impressions will still be stuck in the past, and especially if they were taught by a system to see you as competition, how sure can we be that they are real friends by now, if they were seeing you as competition back then? Actually, people will not 'grow up' and 'move on' from such things even if it is over 15 years ago, and my experience with a few former high school classmates from back in Singapore 3 years back showed me this. You make new friends wherever you go though, so it is really not the issue with regards to these old-time 'friends'.
ReplyDeleteYes well, I made new friends with 'Evita' and 'Ms DW' and that worked out just fine - but when I tried to rely on old friends, I was in for a rude shock. Oh well, another lesson learnt.
DeleteIt's good to know that people change, even friends of yore. It is a sad but true fact of life. The ones whom I never talked to much turned out to be really nice people when I bumped into them again a few years ago, but those whom I used to hang around with have become such monsters.
ReplyDeleteLao Tong Xue was rude. He could have just ignored your request. HS was rude too. What you were asking for was not hours, just minutes. Is this the world we live in now? A world where people are self-serving and always in a rush? What happened to kindness and civility? Jane Austen would turn over in her grave at this great loss of social etiquette. It was not like you asked for help all the time or that the favour would take up a whole hour. HOW BLOODY RUDE!
ReplyDeleteOh yes they were both rude, no doubt about that. Neither of them were obliged to help me of course, but I felt that I could ask and they could have said no without being downright rude to me.
DeleteHi LIFT,
ReplyDeleteI get the impression that you're expecting the world to revolve around you when it comes to your efforts/achievement in the German show -- from your parents to Facebook "non-social" acquaintances. I thought NS should have taught you well enough not to expect this from others. After all the Chinese saying goes "one type of rice feeds 100 types of people".
IMHO you sound rather whiny to me in this blog post. Personally, I find nothing wrong with HS's response. It sounds blunt, but he is being honest about his personal goals at the gym. After all he is not your "social friend", just someone you see (do you even chat with him beyond workout matters?) at the gym regularly who happen to share mutual "friends" on Facebook for years. Ask without expectations. If folks respond positively, then try return the favour in future. If not, just move on. Everyone has his/her own life and priorities -- even where to spend a few minutes of one's time is a matter of priority, ditto who to add on to one's network of "Facebook friends". If yours and the other person's click at the right time, you become friends of circumstances.
As for Lao TongXue, when circumstances change, be prepared for the nature of the relationship to evolve. Some friends of circumstance lasts beyond the circumstance; it generally boils down to 2 traits -- kindness and generosity (see url below about couples, but IMHO the same applies to other relationships too). Whether rightly or wrongly, somehow LTX felt that you did not "invest" into keeping the "good friend" relationship alive. E.g. He wrote, "We haven't spoken for years..." IMHO, what he wants and expects of a "good old friend" is his prerogative. At least he was frank about how he felt.
http://www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11
For both LTX and HS, I appreciate the candour in their replies. You know exactly where you stand with these kind of people. These are folks that I will try to build a relationship with if we do indeed share values and the opportunity arises. My skin is thick enough and ego not so fragile as to wither over their blunt responses. On the other hand, I don't care much for "friends" who are sayang-sayang in front of me, and then for all I know stab me behind my back.
Cheers, WD.
Am I guilty of being a bit of a diva? Of course I am. Did I find out that some people didn't give a shit? Of course I did. But then again, I am merely comparing and contrasting the reactions of HS and Evita - between Lao Tongxue and Ms DW. It is hard - if not impossible - to try to build a relationship with someone who says, "piss off, I am not interested in what you do." I can see the value of candour/honesty (or whatever you wanna call it), but at the same time, if someone (be it HS, Lao Tongxue or my parents) simply has no interest in me or what I do, what kind of basis is that to try to even begin to build any kind of relationship? Sounds like mission impossible - or setting oneself up for failure, which is why I am determined not to waste my time picking the wrong battles. It is necessary to make rational, pragmatic choices in life - thus I want to build relationships with people like Ms DW, Evita and my reader Max Tan who are forthcoming and have shown a willingness/interest in me and I can reciprocate and be a good friend to them as well. We got off on a good start and I don't know if you are suggesting that people like Ms DW, Evita or Max lack candour or honesty? Why can't these nice people be equally candid and honest with me - surely the two are not mutually exclusive, like they can be both nice to me and honest with me at the same time. I don't like the way you implied that Ms DW or Evita are simply "sayang-sayang in front of me" and might stab me in the back - Evita is a new friend, Ms DW is someone who started as a new friend and has turned out to be a really wonderful person whom I have been great friends with for the last 3 years and no, she is just nice and she has not stabbed me in the back.
DeleteI find it sad that you can feel this suspicious about people who are simply nice and you value candour to the point where you can put up with rudeness? I can be honest and candid too - but I draw the line at being rude. That's just not the way I was brought up.
In short, I know I had made an error of judgement and I am being blatantly honest and candid about how confused I feel about it all. I am merely talking about it with my readers to see if I can learn more from my experience and improve my judgement. How's that for candour then?
PS. I don't get your NS reference especially since as a woman, you didn't have to go through NS. but the bottom line is that the same social rules apply whether you are in school, NS, university or working: ie. some people will be interested in you, others will show no interest in anything that goes on in your life and you should be more discerning whom you try to build relationships with. You can't go through life without friends, you will come across times when you need help and it is useful to have a good idea WHOM you can ask for help and WHOM you should leave alone. That is what this post is about.
DeleteI don't think it is wrong to ask others for help - heck, so many strangers have come to my blog asking me for help & advice and I have never ever turned anyone away, even if I can't help I would politely say, no I am sorry but I am not in a position to advice you on this matter but good luck seeking help elsewhere. I don't think there can be any justification to be rude when refusing help to someone - that's a line one should never cross and I felt HS did cross that line. Of course he is not obliged to help me but he could have refused me politely.
And BTW, I often ask about his sister when I see him, since I knew his sister well. And we mostly talk about gymnastics since I am meeting him in a gymnastics club - but what is wrong with that? My conversations with Evita have been mostly about gymnastics too - in case I didn't make clear, this is a GYMNASTICS CLUB (as opposed to some general health and fitness gym thingy) and these are GYMNASTS I am talking about. We all go to the GYMNASTICS CLUBS to do triple twisting back somersaults and other amazing tricks that ordinary folks would pay good money to watch at the Olympics.
What you have to understand about a GYMNASTICS CLUB is that it is nothing at all like one of those health & fitness gymnasiums where people work in silence, ignoring everyone else around them, probably listening to their iPods to block out the rest of the people around them. In a GYMNASTICS CLUB, we often talk to each other and ask each other for them - sometimes we have equipment to move or set up (which is often a 2 or 3 men job, some equipment are just too heavy or big for just 1 person to move) or sometimes it's just asking for a pair of eyes, ie. "please tell me what I am doing wrong with my take off because I can't seem to get this right today". Also, as HS is a coach as well, sometimes he gets into a situation where he needs an extra pair of hands just to make sure the gymnast is completely safe when executing a new skill - that's where he calls me to step in for safety and I do it without asking for anything in return because this is NORMAL. It is completely normal to talk to each other and ask for help and you make it sounds like it is a big fat hairy deal for me to ask HS to help me with something - it isn't, really. I have asked him for help before and he has asked me for help before - albeit gymnastics and/or equipment related but we have had a track record of lending each other a few minutes of our time without asking for anything in return. This is why I am somewhat shocked that he refused to give me a few minutes of his time for free (that's all it would take) when really, I have had an excellent track record of having given him many minutes of my time for free in the past.
DeleteOf course, you didn't know any of this - but I find it distasteful the way you try to make me out to be some kind of unreasonable diva and somehow it is all my fault and I am the evil devil here, when there's so much more that meets the eye; but no, you just had to jump to the worst possible conclusion. That says a LOT more about you than me.
Seriously, this screed? Not helping you. You already know why you didn't get help - you said it in your post. You barely know him outside of gymnastics. Why be surprised if he doesn't want to engage outside that context?
DeleteCall me naive or old fashioned or whatever, but if someone in my gym who I didn't know very well came up to me and asked, "Alex, do you have a few minutes? Could you help me with something?" I would have said yes because guess what? I am nice like that and I don't mind giving someone I don't know very well a few minutes of my time.
DeleteI don't want to start listing the times when I had given away my time to people out of the goodness and kindness of my heart but it has been a habit of a lifetime. I concede that I am naive to assume that everyone would be as giving as I am.
My point is that there are some people like me who won't mind doing others a favour or two without asking for anything in return - and then there are people like you, Winkingdoll and HS who are actually quite mean about it. Geez. And that is the crux of the issue here. I have been lucky to stumble upon 'Evita' who turned out to be super sweet, genuine, sincere and helpful and gave me a few minutes of her time without asking for anything in return.
Do I claim to be a paragon of virtues and Mr Perfect? No. If anything, I am a confused human being trying to figure all this out. Life is a minefield, I am trying to select the people I want to hold in my inner circle and I can certainly see myself being very good friends with Evita and no offence, but I would avoid people like you as I just see you as really quite mean. You take pleasure in insulting people, putting them down and I don't need people like you in my life. Seriously, I don't know why you bother coming to read my blog - you clearly don't like me (and I'm not fond of you either that much is clear) so why don't you go read the blog of someone you do like?
Life must be pretty lonely for you Kaishun if that's the way you treat people. Luckily for me, I have found generous friends like 'Evita' who are happy to be there for me. I am glad I have people I can turn to for help in my time of need.
DeleteGood lord. Like I said in another post, I don't quite understand how you survived in the industry with a skin as thin.
DeleteOf course I'd consider helping a stranger. But you're not a stranger to him.
You have said that for 10 years you have not interacted with him in any way other than for gymnastics. You're not a stranger to him. You're someone who doesn't particularly care about him and who seems to want to interact him with only because you need something from him.
Evita? She's a stranger. And so she's happy to help you when you need help.
How hard is it to put yourself in other people's shoes, instead of taking umbrage at anyone who points out flaws?
I read your blog because you have some occasionally good points. And am happy to point them out when they come up. And to provide you with heart felt advice.
I find it fascinating, though, how you really are unable to take criticism dispassionately, although you're happy to dish it out.
And the reason I keep coming back is because I suspect that somewhere under the mass of unresolved adolescence is a decent human being who will eventually grow up. But that won't happen so long as you choose to only listen to things that suit you or to enablers.
DeleteYou know, Winkingdoll did mention something about candour - at least I am candid about when I make mistakes, I make errors in judgement, I get confused, I don't know what to do. I am a flawed human being after all and at least most of the time, when I do candidly, honestly talk about things like that on my blog, people actually enjoy listening to me pour my heart out in such a candid way - unlike you Mr Know-It-All, Mr Oh-so-perfect - oh you like to sit back and pass judgement on others who are honest enough to be candid about their shortcomings and errors. If you don't think that I am a decent human being, if you don't think that I am a nice person or if you think whatever you wanna think - then by all means, go ahead - you're not in a position to influence or change me because (shock shock horror horror) you're not my friend and I don't know enough about you to wanna value your opinion. You come here and pass judgement on me all the time yet I know precious little about you (kinda like HS) and quite frankly, have never bothered to ask since you've given me little incentive to wanna get to know you better.
DeleteAll I know about you is that you're very opinionated, you rush to judgement in quite a mean way, you're clearly quite well educated and oh you like to be called Kaishun and you get upset when people call you Huichun, that's kinda it really.
As for Evita vs HS, she isn't a total stranger - I have spoken to her a couple of times and when I picked up on her Latino accent, I had chatted to her in Spanish before. Oooh you're going to say, I am taking advantage of the fact that she is Argentinian so I can get free Spanish oral practice - but guess what? She and I actually enjoy chatting (in any language - English, Spanish or German) and I have met her since and I hope we can become more than friends who pass each other in the gym once in a while and say hi. She has extended the hand of friendship and I am taking it. That's how it works - you come across someone in life you feel you can chat to, you extend a hand of friendship and you become friends.
I must admit, I find it thoroughly confusing as to why you think it is far easier to help a stranger than to help someone you know. I didn't dislike HS in any way, shape or form - I just didn't have that much in common with him apart from our mutual interest in gymnastics. Why does everything have to be so black and white to you?
Let's put it this way. I have lived in my block for 10 years 2004 to now and there are neighbours I have only said "hello / hi" to in the lift for the last 10 years. If they needed my help for a small favour, I would definitely say YES sure I will help you. I wouldn't say, "oh you've lived here for 10 years, you've never bothered getting to know me better, You're someone who doesn't particularly care about me and you seem to want to only interact with me when you need something from me. Go away."
Would I do that to a neighbour? No, because that would seem petty, even vindictive. Why take things like that so personally? Unlike you, I would still help the neighbour nonetheless because ... why? I am nice like that. I can't be friends with everyone and but I will try to become a good friend of Evita because she thoroughly fascinates me and she is a lovely person indeed.
I feel sad for you - you seem to take it very personally if someone can know you for 10 years and not want to try to get to know you better. That's not how social circles work - we get naturally attracted to people we share something in common with and you can't expect to share that with everyone you come across. But that's no reason to be unfriendly or unhelpful.
Is it so hard to put yourself into someone else's shoes?
DeleteYour post is fine. You note that you misjudged, and are confused about it. But then, you drown out any criticism by taking umbrage, to the extent that you attribute HS's reaction to me. Like you said, you know little about me and yet you seem to know enough to say what I would or would do for my neighbour.
Whether you dislike HS or not is immaterial to his decision to help you. Whether he dislikes you or not is material. That you have little time with Evita means that her decision on whether to like or dislike you may not yet have been made. That's why it may be easier to help a stranger than someone you have known for a while.
You can listen only to those who will tell you what you want to hear. Tell you "poor Limpeh, yes, what a bunch of meanies they are, telling you that other people could feel differently from you! That other people might dislike you." It's easy enough, really it is.
Or you can stop being so defensive when someone criticises you.
Lord, I should know. I took everything so personally when I was in high school, like the world revolved around me. Would want to punch someone when I heard them laugh in my general direction, because I thought that they were making a joke about me. What a little dipshit I was.
NS was liberating; no one gave a shit about me, unless I did something to deserve it. Either by screwing up or by doing good. But the default was that no one cared, which, after a long period of adjustment, was great! Because then I could focus on the people who I did care about.
The financial industry was best of all; you could disagree on something at work vehemently, but never take it personally. One trader told me to get the f*** out of their face, and I told him straight up that they needed me to do something so why didn't they shut the f*** up and let me get back to work - then we went for a drink after work and were great friends. (Which is why I keep asking how you survived in the industry with such a thin skin. Unless you never had to deal with a trader, I suppose.)
So I suppose with hindsight... maybe it is that hard to put yourself into someone else's shoes after all. Heh.
And maybe I suppose the other part is seeing a bit of a warped mirror image; someone a couple years younger than me who went through similar experiences - but took a very different path. Interesting to watch.
(By the way, can I just say thank you for breaking your scholarship. Lord knows that - unless you would have grown up in whatever job you took -- we have enough self-absorbed scholars.)
> Am I guilty of being a bit of a diva? Of course I am. Did I find out that some people didn't give a shit? Of course I did.
DeleteI was merely pointing the above out to you and the idea of shui3 yuan2 indirectly (rather than to expect others to share your value of willingness to help strangers). As for the rest, you decide if you're over-reacting. Did HS/LTX use cuss words in their replies? Did HS/LTX called you names? Did HS/LTX make false accusations of you? Gosh, I agree they are blunt (as I mentioned above), but personally I don't consider them rude... as the very least they have enough candour to tell you why they are not helping you, better that than you go around having a long list of "fake friends".
You know how people who rise to the top fail? E.g. Think about the number of "yes-men" around the men-in-white "leaders" of Singapore. If that is what you want as a diva, that is your prerogative.
As for my life, I'm very well thank you. I have genuine friends who not only share my values, but are also candid when lines are crossed, so we can work on developing a stronger relationship together. Your instinct to defend yourself by making assumptions and statements (e.g. skipping the fine conditional "if's" in my statements and then jumping to conclusions about me) about anyone who isn't "sayang-sayang" you on your German project that is understandable, reflective of who you are.
Anyway, all the best on your German project. That said, I suggest that for your own happiness, do not expect others' world to revolve around you. Develop some Teflon skin, let the shit slide off you -- you can certainly expect some on your way up.
p.s. Consider instead under the same situations, if you weren't asking for help but instead asking HS/LTX if they have time for a cup of coffee. If they had rebuffed you in the same manner, what would your reaction be? My guess is, you'll probably think, "too bad, your loss", not "why you so rude, ah?"
DeleteDear WD,
Delete1. On both occasions (ie. currently as I am seeking every opportunity to practice my German and in 2011 when I was working in Singapore), I did manage to find various people who did help me out a great deal. Some of the people who helped me were old friends who knew me well - others like Evita and Ms DW turned out to be people whom I hardly knew or were total strangers. All I am saying is that the people who actually turned out to be the nicest to me were eventually pretty random and at the very least, I am very grateful for the mere fact that SOMEBODY did help me in the end, rather than NOBODY - it's just that I didn't do a good job in terms of being able to identify accurately whom was going to be the nicest and most helpful to me. I conceded that I had made errors of judgement and I found this process confusing, I'm human and I wanna talk about it.
2. Maybe it is a cultural thing - but even if I didn't want to help someone, I would make it a point to be polite and tactful rather than blunt & abrupt. Manners don't cost anything and it doesn't hurt to consider the other person's feelings. That was something my older sister taught me and stressed to me as a child. Maybe you don't value that as much as she does - but I do believe it is possible to be candid and polite at the same time. I think it is rather immature to get a cheap thrill by being rude/abrupt/condescending/nasty to someone.
3. What HS said to me after I told him it's fine, you don't have to help me was this, "okay you can give me one line in German but keep it under 6 words." And I was like, what? What is the point of me giving you one sentence in German? I declined and said no, that's not the point - what good would that do? I thought that was an odd thing to say anyway. I wasn't prepared to beg him to listen to me so I said it's fine, don't worry about it - I will find someone else.
I do feel that you're mistaking people with manners as 'fake friends' and somehow allowing people who are brash/abrupt/rude to get away with it in the name of being candid - I just don't buy that. No.
And if this piece (and my previous pieces on the same issue) hasn't already convinced you that I have realized that there are some people who don't give a shit what I get up to in Germany, then I don't know what will. That's 3 blog pieces about me conceding that some people in my life don't give a damn what I get up to in Germany this month.
Lastly, if HS/LTX had rebuffed me for coffee in the same manner, I think I would still have considered them rude as it would have cost them nothing to have been polite about it. I am prepared to accept that I value social graces a lot more than you do - and to a certain degree, yes I am imposing my standards on others, but that just means I have to be more selective whom I ask for help in the future.
And as for Kaishun:
Delete1. I am going to graciously acknowledge your argument about helping a stranger - though I find your argument illogical because I can see why one would refuse to help an acquaintance you don't really like. Heck, I can think of colleagues who are like that - I work with them, I know them, I don't really like them and I have a reason not to wanna help them, fine. But if it is someone whom I don't really know, then I would find it hard to justify myself not to say yes to them - I would feel bad turning down someone on that basis that "oh you never took the time to get to know me better, so I am going to be petty and vindictive and refuse to give you 5 minutes of my time". That just doesn't seem fair enough to me, it's not a good enough reason, so when I am put in that situation, I would say yes and offer my help. But that's me. I accept that others will not be as generous and kind as I am and this is perhaps me being naive to hope that others will be as nice as me.
2. And no, there are so many aspects of working within the financial services industry, loads of people can build careers in this sector without having to deal with traders. The financial services sector does not revolve around traders. So if you weren't so fucking rude about it the first time, I could have taken the time to explain to you that I had worked predominantly in developing third party distribution channels for hedge funds in new markets, dealing with distributors, IFAs, brokers and other middlemen without once having to deal with a trader. That is still pretty much where my key expertise lies and I have carved myself a niche in financial services without once having to deal with a fucking trader - and let's keep it that way. So you dealt with a trader, big fat fucking hairy deal, like I am so impressed, NOT. Duh. He sounds like an animal with no manners and I am so glad the people I work with value manners and decorum a bit more.
Oh and PS, I had no bond to break in my scholarship. All 3 scholarships I took were bondless - which was kinda crap as my first job upon graduation sucked so bad. Fuck it was a shitty job. I hated it so much. That was when I wished I had taken a scholarship with a bond to serve then at least I could have had a decent first job upon graduation.
* I dealt with family offices as well, private bankers, funds of hedge funds, institutional investors and other investment consultants as well. It's niche, but it sat well with my expertise with languages.
DeletePPS. I find it strange that you seem to want to harp on the fact that I barely know Evita, that she was practically a stranger to me - whilst ignoring the possibility that she is quite simply, a nice person. And let me tell you that for a fact: she is an extremely sweet, friendly and helpful person. She isn't making all of these calculations in her head about whom to help for what reasons, she saw a situation where she could help since she spoke German and she offered her help unconditionally. That tells me that she is a nice person - a fact that you may wish to take into consideration. Some people are genuinely nice. And I have also seen people who would NOT help a stranger - not everyone is that helpful and nice. I was outside a train station today when I saw a destitute homeless person begging - scores of people walked past him and no one even acknowledged the presence of this beggar who is, oh guess what? A stranger to them.
Delete> All I am saying is that the people who actually turned out to be the nicest to me were eventually pretty random... [cut to subsequent paragraph] some people in my life don't give a damn what I get up to in Germany this month.
DeleteBravo! That's my point about shui3 yuan2. Ask and then see who steps up. As for those who say no, let them be, they probably have their own reasons (be those reasons fair or otherwise). No point wasting your time and emotional energy on their replies. I like the way gohby puts it below -- "HS's rejection led to you knowing Evita".
> I would make it a point to be polite and tactful rather than blunt & abrupt
That's you and I believe your manners have helped you in your various life achievements. Good for you.
> I do feel that you're mistaking people with manners as 'fake friends' and somehow allowing people who are brash/abrupt/rude to get away with it in the name of being candid
I suspect that since both Kaishun and myself have had to deal with traders directly at some point in our career life (traders have their own "f***ing culture"), we probably have met some folks who are rough on the outside but have hearts of gold once one is able to see beyond their rough exterior. Quite honestly, some of these folks behave as jerks/divas rather consistently. But other so-called "blunt & abrupt" folks may not behave in the same manner under all situations; one may get to see their "other positive sides" if one does not pre-judge them AND if/when opportunity arises -- but to get there, one has to first develop a Teflon-coated skin/ego (i.e. let the shit slide off). I don't know about Kaishun: my experience has taught me to see individuals beyond their surface manners -- manners are nice-to-have, but sincerity is a must-have in friends, and (for me personally) candour is highly-valued in close friends. Of course, it's best if all attributes are present, it is not a black-or-white (zero-sum) choice.
> "okay you can give me one line in German but keep it under 6 words."
Now with the above, I would agree that HS is being unnecessarily mean in his reply. No sweat, just move on. Shui3 yuan2.
Btw, my observation from your various blog posts is that you come across as someone who has seen a lot in life, and has clearly achieved success in variety of very tough/competitive environments. So I am a little perplexed as to why your survival skills (e.g. your ability to deal with rejection) seems to not have kicked in this time.
Dear WD,
Delete1. I had already known Evita at this point and had talked to her several times in the gym - it's just that I didn't realize that she was also fluent in German. Not many Argentinians speak German fluently, so it didn't occur to me that she would be German speaking hence I never thought of asking her for help.
2. I think that it is very petty and immature to simply lash out at people to put them down, insult them, be nasty to them - Kasihun seems to celebrate that whole culture where traders enjoy being rude to people - I don't. In London recently, a former minister was exceedingly rude and condescending to a taxi driver and the taxi driver recorded the whole incident and then gave the tape to a newspaper who then broke the story. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30188899 David Mellor was then forced to give a groveling apology. Mellor was attacked by so many people on social media and by the mainstream media for his tirade against this taxi driver - oh I suppose someone like you or Kaishun may feel, "oh Mellor was merely being candid about his feelings, at least I know where I would stand with a man like that, I appreciate his candour". Well clearly, the British public feel otherwise about his behaviour in that taxi and I am living in a culture where manners and civility are valued and there is indeed a price to pay for someone like David Mellor who dares to be so 'candid' with his feelings.
3. I am willing to go as far as to say that perhaps it's my Britishness that makes me so appalled at rudeness and that is why someone like Mellor is hung up to dry by the media for being so rude to a taxi driver - which perhaps in Kaishun's books, would be no big deal at all since traders are probably rude to everyone everyday and it's money that counts, not manners. Well we live in different worlds and I will not compromise my values and the way I treat people, even if I did work in finance (but never ever dealt with traders). Thus whilst I value sincerity and hoensty as much as you do, I fear you may confuse sheer rudeness with "candour". Candour is when someone takes me aside and tells me that dyeing my hair makes me look downright ridiculous and a mistake (but in a tactful, polite manner), rudeness is if someone just yelled, "hey what the fuck did you do with your hair asshole? You look like shit you fucking loser." Big difference, huge difference, can you tell?
4. I think Di has summarized it really well - I'm not being a diva who expects everyone to drop everything to help me, be there for me and treat me like a superstar. I am however, appalled at the way some people are needlessly rude to me when they could have said no without being rude. Therein lies the difference. Yes I have been through a lot in very tough/competitive environments in both sports and my career, that is correct, but I don't see why that should make me so used to people treating me rudely. Besides, there are different kinds of rejection: if I didn't get the scholarship I wanted, if I didn't get the job I wanted, if I didn't get the promotion I wanted etc - that's hardly on the same scale as HS or Long Tongxue snubbing me and refusing to help me. Completely different. This post is as much about social values and figuring out who to ask for help in life - if you can move beyond judging me, then you may be able to see that it is an issue that we all have to face given that we all live in complex societies where we may encounter people with different social values: from David Mellor to the kind hearted Di Talasi.
Dear LIFT,
DeleteDavid Mellor being a politician (i.e. a public figure) and according to the url you listed, 'Mr Mellor called the man "stupid" and told him to "shut up"', of course he was forced into giving a grovelling apology. Singapore had its Wee Shu Min and father Wee Siew Kim too -- but I seriously doubt their being forced to apologize and/or to retract their statements will really change the way they see others, at most they are forced to put on a polite "stiff-upper lip" front. That's what I mean by "fake people/friends".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Shu_Min_elitism_controversy
That said, neither HS nor LTX called you "stupid" and/or told you to "shut up"'. Sure, on top of telling you bluntly exactly how he felt about your relationship with him, LTX decided to block you from further communications; which in my world, that is just "I don't want to invest into that relationship anymore"; and it is different from telling you to "shut up" or being rude. And yes, HS' subsequent condition to fit your request into 6 words did sound mean, but it still isn't rude in my books. Yes, IMHO, it is possible to be mean without being rude -- the Cantonese are famous for that, phrases like “非洲和尚” comes to mind. Meanness and rudeness are 2 different concepts in my vocabulary.
> someone just yelled, "hey what the fuck did you do with your hair asshole? You look like shit you fucking loser."
Well, communication has to do with more than just words (body language and the context counts for more than 50% of the message), so I cannot make a judgement based on just the words and situation you cited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Shu_Min_elitism_controversy
Let me share with you a real-life example from my husband DD who is a typical born-and-bred Canadian. Canadians are well known for their politeness -- e.g. the joke of "Question: How do you get a Canadian to say 'sorry'? Answer: You step on his/her toes."
One day about 3 months into a new job in USA, one of DD's colleague (let's call him Mr USA) gave DD the middle-finger (coupled with a deadpan facial expression) as they walked towards each other near the office pantry. DD returned the finger back. Mr USA suddenly broke into a huge smile, shook DD's hand, pat DD's back and went, "You're OK!" DD never found out why Mr USA decided to give him the finger, nevertheless Mr USA turned out to be a really nice and supportive colleague. Years later, even when they have moved away to different jobs/cities, they kept in-touch. DD would not have such a friend if he had been regimental about manners (like the way he was brought up by his family). In fact, according to DD, since that incident, DD and Mr USA would exchange the "finger" whenever they meet as an inside joke.
I understand where DD is coming from. I am glad that despite his middle-class background/upbringing, DD and I share a common feature in that our social circles spread across a wide range of social backgrounds. Because we have had meaningful interactions with folks from various walks of life -- e.g. including from "the 'hood" where "street cred" is important for survival -- we have learned to see individuals beyond their surface manners. I personally know of individuals for whom the something like example you cited above wouldn't be considered an abnormal greeting between good friends. But since I have no qualms about being candid and I know these few selected friends share that mutual value too -- I would probably tell them directly to say instead, ""hey what the fuck did you do with your hair? You look like shit" -- and that would still be within their style without being jarring to my ears. [Note: I appreciate my friends as they are, I don't try to mould them to suit me.] For the few selected ones who do become my friends, they would respect me enough to adapt their choice of words with me -- of course, old-habits die hard and they may need the occasional reminders. All in, I have very nice and supportive friends, some with great manners, some with limited manners (and/or perhaps a case of limited commonly used lingo), and others anywhere along the manners-spectrum; but all-in sincere and often-times candid folks.
Delete> we live in different worlds
Anyway, I agree with you that "we live in different worlds" and thus understandably we have different values/expectations of social interactions. No one person is right/wrong -- all that matters is you're comfortable and happy in your world, and I mine. As I wrote before, “一种米养百种人” (one type of rice feed hundreds types of people) and “随缘” (sui3 yuan2) -- IMHO they are very useful concepts to put into practice to reduce wasting one's time and/or emotional effort. With that, I respectfully sign-off my 2 cents on this topic.
Cheers, WD.
Dear WD, here are a number of bullet points in response to what you have written above:
Delete1. There is also the Korean Air Macadamia "nuts-rage" case now (which no doubt you must've see in the news) - where the diva threw a tantrum about the way her nuts were served and now both father and daughter of Korean Air have resigned and offered the deepest apology for the way she had behaved. I feel sorry for the dad really but yes, I'd like to think that people who behave like Ms "Nuts-rage" and David Mellor should not be allowed to get away with such nasty behaviour.
2. As for Lao Tongxue and HS, they both effectively blocked me: one via Facebook, one giving me a quota of 6 words (why the magic number 6? He may as well have made it zero. What could I say in 6 words?) but in either case, I don't think it is worthwhile splitting hairs between rudeness and meanness - but if you wanna go down that route, I actually think that being mean is far worse than being rude. Being rude indicates that the person has lost control, is venting his anger and is not socially conditioned to exercise self-restrain: for example, I was at an airport once when the flight was delayed a few hours and I witnessed a passenger yell at a member of staff from that airline. Sure he was frustrated but the plane was delayed due to factors that had nothing to do with her personally - if the incoming flight was delayed, there just wasn't a plane waiting for us to board on the tarmac. She couldn't tell him the news he wanted so he yelled at her and scolded her. Now that was rudeness that was bore out of frustration but it seemed spontaneous. I was on the same delayed flight, but I exercise enough self-restraint not to behave like that other man, knowing that yelling at that lady would not bring my plane to the gate any sooner. Whereas being mean implies that there is malicious intent to cause hurt to the other party, to put the other party down with words, it goes beyond a lack of manners or social decorum: the 6 words quota is one such example of HS being condescending. He could have just said "no I don't want to do this" but he had to make his point by giving me a 6 word quota? That seems needlessly mean, even cruel - which made me think that actually, you've found them guilty of a more serious crime than sheer rudeness (which may come bursting out with no malicious intent). Of course, rudeness can lead to malice (as in the case of Mellor - when I think it was a bit of both rudeness and meanness/malice - which is why he got into so much trouble).
3. As for DD and Mr USA, I would have found such a situation confusing of course, but when you are obliged to work with someone, then you have to try to find a way to get along with them. It doesn't mean you have to like them, but you have to foster a decent working relationship. Believe you me, years ago, I had this colleague called Paola - the mad Italian - whom everyone said was IMPOSSIBLE to work with. I didn't like her at all, yet I went out of my way to accommodate her because I had to spend my working hours with her and I was professional enough to know that as we were team members, the team's objective to deliver was far more important than my ego or my feelings; ironically, she walked away saying how nice I was and what a great friend I was and as for me, I thought I deserved an award for having the patience of a saint to put up with her crap. WD, I tolerate people, put up with people and make things work in a work environment because I am a professional - but I don't have to like people like Paola. That was what NS taught me. You have to be professional, but please don't pretend that every cloud has a silver lining. In Paola, there was just crap, crap and more emotional crap the deeper you dig into her twisted head.
Delete4. I do recognize what you say about fake people and yes I have had a former colleague who had exquisite manners and was ever so polite with me and she stabbed me in the back over money (and she knew she could get away with it because I was about to leave the company that year - never announce your plans to resign too early.) I'll spare you the details, so yes I am aware of people like that - but that doesn't give people the excuse to be rude or mean to me: I have enough self-respect to say, "no that's where I draw the line, people should treat each other with respect and civility and if you want to be my friend, then you had better meet my standards, if not, then you and I are not gonna be friends." I decide what I will put up with in my personal life (as opposed to in the work environment) and where I draw the line: I am very happy with my judgement as I have no shortage of nice people in my life who do treat me with respect and kindness.
5. Thus I think you missed the point about NS. Yes it is a challenging environment where you do have to live & work with people with limited manners, who are rude, from the very gutter of society, but oh pullease, I never ventured out of my comfort zone in terms of making friends or liking people. My only good friends in NS were the jiatkentang English speaking ones from good schools and were probably headed to UK/US/Canada for their university education and as for the rest, I formed good professional working relationships with them in the work place but I never got close to them as friends. Like NS was only 2 years 4 months of my life, why should the pattern of my social interactions change just because of that? Perhaps some men came away claiming that NS taught them to get along with everyone from prince to pauper, that seems unrealistic to me. I walked away having learnt how to work with anyone without liking them - and that's me being candid and honest. I'll work with anyone professionally and put my ego aside, just don't expect me to like them.
Hi Alex,
ReplyDeleteI want to emphasise that HX and LTX were being rude. However I will throw out some possibilities here, so hopefully it will help you with your internal reconciliation.
LTX: You and LTX being very close the last time could ironically be the cause of the unhappiness within LTX. LTX could be harbouring some sense of self-entitlement that you should have taken more effort to keep in touch with him precisely because you were such good friends with him last time. Maybe he has been sore about it all these while and you asking him for a favour out of the blue precipitated the implosion of his unhappiness. Even so I think he's being unreasonable here because I would have dispensed much more kindness and leeway to a close friend back in school, rather than unilaterally holding self-entitled beliefs and bottling it all up, and worst of all, leaving no room for any discussion by blocking you. Urgh.
HX: Very strange, especially wrt the subsequent remark to keep your sentence under 6 words. There are so many possibilities here and it's difficult to guess what the real reason(s) was. Some possibilities that I can think of: the context of the conversation / his personality / his upbringing / how seriously he treats his time allocated for gymnastics / his inner (unreasonable, unexpressed) feelings like jealousy, xenophobia, etc etc / just doesn't treat you as worthy of his time / having a bad day.... and the list goes on. Frankly, I don't understand either, because I would have minimally declined your request politely if I had chosen not to help you. But I don't reckon you will ever know the truth unless you ask him? (That is, if you are even bothered enough to find out the answer)
But hey, HX's rejection led to you knowing Evita, which makes the whole thing so worthwhile. ;) There's one thing that is evident from your account though - the length of the time which you've known someone (in the past) has little bearing on the quality of the relationship at present and in the future, especially when you are dealing with people who do not place much value in the past.
Hope my suggestions help. Take care.
Hi Gohby,
Deletethanks for your thoughtful message. Allow me to respond to your message:
1. I think there is a big disagreement between myself and some of the other people here - I think it is perfectly okay to be honest or candid, but you can be honest/candid without being rude, nasty, impatient or abrupt. It is just a matter of being polite. If somebody doesn't want to help me, I don't expect them to make up some excuse to lie to me about it, but they could politely refuse and that would be fine. That's my point really - I am fine with someone saying no to me, but just don't do it in a manner that is impolite.
2. I am surprised that HS (which stands for Half-Swiss) said no to me on the basis of the fact that we do see each other in the gym all the time. Let me compare this to another situation - a neighbour in my block asked me for help recently to move some furniture. I didn't want to spend 30 minutes moving heavy furniture but hey, I didn't want any awkwardness since I do live in the same block and I do run into him in the lift all the time, so I said yes for that reason: to avoid any awkwardness that may have arisen had I said no. Perhaps that's me, I just feel too paiseh to say no to people who ask me for help and that's the kind of person I am. Clearly, others don't share my sense of obligation to say yes all the time. I don't want people to think of me as unhelpful or rude - but clearly, some people don't have a problem with that.
3. As for my Lao Tongxue, well, there was that gap between the time I left for my studies abroad to us reconnecting via Facebook. In that time, I lost touch with the vast majority of my old classmates from sec sch and JC. I didn't think it was a big deal to try to get back to where we were after so many years, but clearly, like I have conceded, I had misjudged the situation. Even if he didn't want to help, he could have a) ignored me, b) said no politely but to c) block me and cut me off, what did he have to gain in doing so? I think that was a very petty and impulsive move - well that hope that brought him some satisfaction because I really don't see how that could have done him any good whatsoever.
4. And yes, Lao Tongxue and I were very good friends back in secondary school. Very good friends indeed and that's why I felt I could ask him for help and I assumed that he wouldn't have felt upset by me asking.
5. As for HS and the quota of 6 words, come on - if someone is only giving you a quota 6 words, I don't know if he thinks he is funny but clearly he doesn't want to talk to me but I wasn't prepared to start selecting which 6 words to use. I ended that conversation.
6. As for why he acted like that - I don't know but I'd rather not speculate and just accept that he is within his rights to say no and ask for his inability to be polite about it, well that's just a poor reflection on his upbringing. And that's a shame, as I know his sister and she is ever so sweet and polite. I could have asked HER for help (but she didn't show up at the gym that night).
7. I already had spoken to Evita a few times in the gym, so it's not as if I don't know her, I just didn't realize that she spoke German fluently till then.
I did not get that Alex was being a diva or whiny. I think Alex was just perplexed and disappointed in people's rudeness. LTX need not go to that extent to say no. HS --- what was his problem? A few minutes to help out someone you see often? I don't know what kind of world some of the posters on this blog live in. Where I come from, I help people. Both my husband and my son help people. By help, I do not mean money or spending hours doing charity work, although we do that too. Help means the little things that do not cost much in resources --- helping with groceries, opening doors, giving directions, etc. So, if I were HS, I would gladly give Alex 15 minutes of my time. This is someone I see often. You don't have to be friends to help someone. As for LTX, you do not need to be so rude. Just ignoring the fb request should suffice. Why are people on this blog so quick to say that you are whiny or being a diva? A diva would be if you insisted that they helped you. Your point was that they need not be rude when saying no.
ReplyDeleteHi Di and thanks for your comment. I agree with you 100%, it seems that you and I are so on the same wavelength.
DeleteLet's put it this way Di, if a colleague had asked you for help at work and you felt, oh I am not really keen to do this, I am kinda busy, I am not that close to you ... but you realize, if I don't help him/her, I don't want people to think "Di is unhelpful, Di is rude, Di is selfish etc" - so you end up helping anyway because you don't want to have a reputation at work for being unhelpful/rude/selfish etc.
Like I said, maybe it is a cultural thing: I actually wouldn't want people at the gym, at work, my neighbours, my blog readers etc to think that I am unhelpful or rude or selfish etc that is why I would feel compelled to help and even if I couldn't, I would at least decline in a polite but still helpful way. "I'm sorry I can't help you with this, I'm not good with computers anyway but why don't you try asking George? He's an IT expert and this would be more his thing than mine." That would be how I would say no to a colleague/friend, rather than "go away, I'm not interested in helping you."
If you can live with the fact that people are going to perceive you as selfish/rude/inconsiderate/abrupt - then that's your problem, not mine: I actually care about manners. I actually care about the way I treat others and the way others treat me and if someone doesn't share that value, then it is unlikely that we will be friends.
Hence that is why I would give characters like 'traders' (as mentioned by Kaishun) and indeed Kaishun a wide berth and avoid them, because I would much rather be friends with people who would treat me with a bit more courtesy. Please do not mistake rudeness and selfishness for candour - that's so different. One should never allow rude people to get away with appalling behaviour in the name of, "Oh s/he is just being candid." Yeah right.
And yes - whiny diva - good definition Di. My point is about the way they said no, not about the fact that they said no. Thanks Di.
I just feel that we have to be civilized in our interactions with people. Being candid is not the same as being rude. Kaichun and Winking Doll seemed confused with the difference.
DeleteI agree Di. It is one thing to be rude to someone you think you may never ever meet again (say a taxi driver, as in the case of David Mellor the ex-minister who was obscenely rude to a taxi driver, aha but the taxi driver caught it all on his phone), but would you be abrupt, rude or mean to someone like a neighbour, a colleague or even someone you may run into in the gym? I wouldn't - no, simply because I wouldn't want people to think of me as rude, nasty or selfish; I think it would be awful to have people think about me as a rude or selfish person.
DeleteWhilst I recognize that there are fake people who are polite to you in person but would stab you in the back, two wrongs simply do NOT make a right. Fake people are bad, rude people are bad, mean people are bad - they are all bad people we should not put up with. The existence of fake people doesn't make it any more justifiable to be rude or mean with others. The fundamental problem I have with Kasihun and WD condoning rudeness in the name of candour, in the name of "at least I know where I stand with a guy who will be this honest with me" is that such people will not treat you with respect even if they would happily unleash their 'candour' on you in the form of blatant disrespect and meanness.
No no no.
What kind of people do you want in your life? People who will treat you like crap in the name of being honest? Crikey.
I have news for you: there are people who will treat you really well and still be honest and candid with you, but because they respect you as well, there will be no room for rudeness or meanness in that relationship.
I think it boils down to having a healthy dose of self-respect. If you think you're not worthy of love, you're not worthy of being treated decently, then you will find all kinds of excuses in your head to justify people treating you like shit and when someone like me tells you that it is not okay to allow yourself to be treated like shit, you turn around and tell me to grow some thick skin? Tut tut.
I'm so glad I have friends like Di who offer me the whole package: candour, honesty, respect & kindness. Nice people like her exist and she makes a wonderful friend. I'd much rather have friends like her than to put up with the 'traders' that Kaishun is so fond of.
Eh. I think there is enough of a body of text here for your readers to decide what approach they prefer. Me, I would rather people be upfront about their point of view, but sure, if you prefer enablers, your choice.
DeleteI will say this though - I really am glad that you've chosen to find your happiness outside of Singapore.
Your point is simply not valid - you are condone rudeness, meanness and treating people with little respect whereas I am proud to say that I treat my friends with courtesy, kindness and respect and I expect the same from them. It is on that basis that I establish meaningful relationships and if people fall short of my standards, then screw them - I have enough good friends.
DeleteAre there rude nasty people in the world? Of course there are - but you want to condone and endorse treating people like shit (oh you and your traders) whereas no, I draw the line at that and say that is completely unacceptable for me and I will not allow anyone to treat me like that.
There is a huge difference between being upfront/candid and just being downright rude/nasty/unpleasant - I can only assume that you must be rude, nasty and selfish in real life that is why you cannot see the difference between being candid and just being plain rude.
Now go away, I don't know why you come back to my blog. You won't be missed.
Gosh, I think Kaichun was insinuating that I am your enabler, Alex. LOL! Well, I have to admit that I do not understand why WD and Kaichun are willing to put up with rude people. Perplexing. As for DD and the middle-finger guy: at work, I would not give the finger back, but I would ask what his problem was. If he burst out laughing and said he was testing my sense of humour or some other juvenile excuse, I will let it go and probably laugh along with him. Expecting professionalism and civility is not the same as being a stick-in-the-mud. Anyone one who knows me knows I have a great sense of humour. WD and Kaichun seemed to think that rudeness is ok. One can be rude without using the middle finger or using swear words. One of the many forms of intelligence is social intelligence --- something that both Bill Clinton and Obama both have. Personal example: when I was very young, my mom brought me to a neighbour's house. She gave me a pear. It was not sweet. I said, "This pear is not sweet." My mom reprimanded me. I was candid (the pear was not sweet!), but I was also rude. There is a concept called social graces which WD and Kaichun seem not to know about. Social grace does not permit me to declare to my host that the pear was not sweet. You just eat it. If it is unbearably sour, you make an excuse. If you are too young to make an excuse, you pick a moment to tell your mother that the pear is not sweet. Your mother will then say something like, "Oh, why don't you put it down/wrap it in tissue/whatever excuse ... and eat it later?" Then you go home and throw the pear away. It is what I teach my child. SOCIAL GRACE. I have not perfected it yet, like Emily Post or Jane Austen, but I try my best. Having social grace does not mean being a push over, though. So, HS could have said, "Alex, sorry, I am just not in the mood today. Lousy day. I just want to be alone. Another day, perhaps?" I am certain Alex would have understood because he is not dense. SOCIAL GRACE, people! It is what makes life bearable outside the comforts of home. Apparently Kaichun enjoys the crass and boorish behaviours of those traders. He has to remember that there is a whole world out there made up of people who are not traders, but people who actually keep up social graces (including politeness, kindness, consideration, etc). As for WD, I live in Canada too. I, too, have friends from all walks of life --- from professors to blue-collared workers. No, we do not talk like that. We do tease each other endlessly. We may say, "Oh, no! What happened to your hair? What were you thinking, girl?!" Then followed by, "Oh well, and your hair will grow back. Let's see what we can do with it in the meantime." You see, that is being candid but supportive. Why hang around people who insult and tear you down? Isn't life hard enough as it is?
DeleteLordy lordy, you're free to stop approving my comments of course, but having put something on the internet, you cannot bar viewing. So I'll be coming around and commenting as I feel like it, whether it goes up or not.
DeleteI've followed your blog because having been through similar discomfort with my own parents, I'd like to see you manage to move on. Because Freudian hat aside, so much of what you put up on the internet traces back to the hurt and pain of your parents' rejection of you. And no one deserves to sit in that misery; I've sat through it long enough, until I came to terms with the relationship.
And the answer to it, for me, at least, is to have enough self-confidence in yourself to say that even if you will never, ever obtain the approval that you so clearly desire, it doesn't matter. Life is what it is, and you can only change what you can. And the first step to that is recognising that there are more important things in life than being hung up over what some asshole in the gym says and does.
As I said, you're free to choose enablers who will tell you what you want to hear. But the truth is what the truth is; and a person with sufficient self-confidence would simply say "Eh, he doesn't want to help me - whatever, this nice person does, and move on." Instead of writing a post about it.
As long as you choose to listen only to those who agree with you 100%, nothing will ever change. But hey, if you prefer to fixate on form, not meaning, such is life; satori cannot be forced.
Best of luck, Alex; you'll need it.
Firstly, in response to Di:
Delete1. I think WD and Kaishun come from social circles where people are often rude and it's considered no big deal; either that or they are themselves rude to others and feel entitled to be rude, so they see nothing wrong with it. Certainly, when Kaishun crosses the line and writes a very rude post, I just delete it because I think that he needs to grow up and learn some manners. I think it's extremely immature of him to behave like that because you don't gain anything by being rude to people like that and the only impression he has left me thus far are very negative ones (mostly because of the pompous and rude way he expresses himself) and I think, gosh, why didn't anyone teach him how to conduct himself in a less obnoxious way? I digress - that's his problem, not mine,.
2. Ref: the pear is not sweet - that's a really good example where it really doesn't pay to value candour over social graces. I totally agree with you. There is always a more delicate, tactful way to resolve the situation rather than just act like a bull in a China shop. You are the very essence of social intelligence and you understands this principle - but it's more than being just highly intelligent, someone like Kaishun is undoubtedly very well educated, but I am appalled that he condones some very poor behaviour, like what, in the name of some macho bravado bullshit? Duh.
3. "You see, that is being candid but supportive. Why hang around people who insult and tear you down? Isn't life hard enough as it is?"
Oh I am 100% with you here. I can't agree more. That's why you're my friend Di :)
And now for Kaishun:
Delete1. Your comments will be deleted when you make no attempt to be civil or polite. If you insist on being rude, then your comments will be deleted. I have neither the desire or time to argue with you when you insist on being so antagonistic and rude. And seriously, you are no better than an internet troll at times.
2. There are blogs from people like Xiaxue who just focus on "hey look at me, I am so beautiful, I am so happy, life is so great, let me endorse all these great new products, here are my holiday photos, everything is great!" There is a small element of that on my blog when I do interesting stuff like travel for work, but I prefer to talk about issues that matter to me - be it social issues or things that happen to me that confuse me or trouble me. There's a certain amount of honesty to my writing where I concede that stuff confuses me, that I don't know how to react to a situation or I don't understand how something works: and perhaps if you weren't so full of yourself and pompous, perhaps you too may admit some of those same feelings. This is what draws readers to my blog, because I explore these issues that perhaps they have encountered before as well and this is a safe place for us to talk about our feelings. You however, choose to behave in an antagonistic manner to those of us who just want to talk about our feelings and you think that oh we should just focus on more important stuff than to talk about our feelings when we are confused or troubled. This is why I think you're seriously in the wrong part of the internet when you come to my blog.
3. Since Di Talasi made a direct reference to you, that's why I approved your comment. And that's probably the only reason why I approved your comment - I have no desire to hear from you but I thought she deserved to hear from you. You may continue to respond to her but if you post anything antagonistic again, you know I am just gonna hit delete without even bothering to read your spiteful venom. Go stick your venom somewhere else on the internet.
My 2cts here even though alot has been posted already.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what LTX deal was. But we grew up around the same time and I won't be ashamed to admit that I have lost contact with all of my Primary and Secondary school mates (save for 1). I seldom use Facebook and I find it superficial to continue to add old school mates as my "friend" and try to keep in touch. My way of thinking is that since our paths have never met and probably won't meet again in the future I won't bother to keep up a charade of being your "friend". At most we would compare our different lifestyles and end up jealous or envious. Maybe that is LTX's chip, you haven't talked or met face to face for years and suddenly you are up in everyones' faces asking for a favor.
As for HS, is might be a cultural thing, like how the Nordic people are all very cold and curt unless you are their good friend. There is a joke about a German baby that goes like this:
A British couple decided to adopt a German baby. They raised him for years, however they began to get worried because he never spoke, and they believed that he was mentally handicapped, going as far as to take him to therapy, which was fruitless. Then, when the child was 8 years old, he had a Strudle, and said "It is a little tepid."
His parents, of course shocked that he was suddenly speaking, asked: "Wolfgang, why have you never spoken before?", to which the child replied: "Up until now, everything had been satisfactory."
So possibly a cultural thing, I won't pretend I understand Swiss culture but I'm saying we can't discount this fact too.
Hi there Choaniki, yeah I think you're just about old enough to know what it is like to reconnect with old classmates on Facebook after losing contact for so many years, right? Perhaps with some people, I just picked up where we left off - with others, that connection is lost ,broken, gone.
DeleteAs for Nordic people, I have met polite Nordic people who would have chosen to say no but in a more polite manner. I don't think Nordic people are known for being brash/rude. Cold and reserved, sure - but rude? No.
If people are genuine and sincere to us, they will help us small favours. If they are not, then we stick to the ones that are good to us and invest more of our time with them. If they don't want to help, let them be and if they are rude, we just avoid them but maintain a professional working relationship. From my experiences, Germans are very independent and prefer to handle things on their own rather than ask for help. Asking for help may expose a certain weakness. They are also focused on cold hard efficiency and as such they don't facebook or make small talk at work. HS was probably in no mood for giving German tuition during his gymnastic session. Latin Americans on the other hand are more open, friendly and warm.
ReplyDeleteSometimes people may not show gratitude for help rendered to them. They may be superficial and suck up to you when they badly need help but when they don't need you anymore, they ignore you and don't care about you anymore. But I share your belief that we should help others if it costs us little resources as our favours to others may be returned to us via an indirect source. Your compensation for helping your blog readers with questions has been repaid by the Argentinian girl who you haven't helped before. As for the German, you just maintain a working relationship in the gym and anything outside of gymnastics, you don't have to entertain him.
Hi there and thanks for your comment.
DeleteFirstly, HS isn't German, he is half-Swiss half British and he has grown up in the UK, not Germany or Switzerland. So even if he does speak the German language, he is culturally more British than German.
Secondly, I have had other German friends who have gone out of their way to help me and be nice to me - so I feel it is really unfair of you to blame this on German culture when within any ethnic group or nationality, there will be nice people and rude people - HS's rudeness is a personal flaw that should not be attributed to his ethnicity or his nationality.
By the same token, Evita happened to be a really nice person and I have met Latin Americans who are rude, inconsiderate and selfish. Let's not drag culture into this.
Thirdly, I don't believe that we should think about "what do I get in return" when asked to help people. Gosh, that's so calculating. If it doesn't take much of your time or money, then just do it lah. Life is way to short to fuss over the minute details about what you get in return.