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| They want to know my what?! |
I intend to renounce my Singapore citizenship after not having been back for many years now and not serving NS. I'm giving it up because I have no intentions on ever visiting or returning to Singapore ever again since I left in my mid teens. However the package they sent me via email contains numerous sections, including:
- Statutory declaration to renounce
- Note from ICA
- Cool off period
- Questionnaire
- Personal particulars (education, employment history, citizenship info about my parents, siblings, wife and kids)
I'm most concerned about providing that much detailed information, especially if they could use this against me and my family, and if they reject my application to renounce, given that I'm past 40 but have not fulfilled my NS liabilities. My wife is advising me against sending it in, and thinks it is absurd for the Singapore government agency to ask for such personal info. Did you remember having to fill all these sections? Are the risks high for me and my family if I fill in these info? Thank you! Keep up the good work blogging.
- Statutory declaration to renounce
- Note from ICA
- Cool off period
- Questionnaire
- Personal particulars (education, employment history, citizenship info about my parents, siblings, wife and kids)
I'm most concerned about providing that much detailed information, especially if they could use this against me and my family, and if they reject my application to renounce, given that I'm past 40 but have not fulfilled my NS liabilities. My wife is advising me against sending it in, and thinks it is absurd for the Singapore government agency to ask for such personal info. Did you remember having to fill all these sections? Are the risks high for me and my family if I fill in these info? Thank you! Keep up the good work blogging.
Now you've already told me clearly: you have no intention to even visit Singapore ever again - not even as a tourist, so how the hell can they possibly "use this against" you where you are in your country of residence? This is the point where I roll my eyes in disbelief as it reminded me of this Cold War story: the assassination of Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov. Writer and journalist Markov defected to the West and had settled in London. He was still conducting a campaign against the communist regime in Bulgaria from the West, much to the irritation of the Bulgarian government. So they sent a Bulgarian assassin to London in 1978: armed with a poison tipped umbrella who shot Markov in the leg as he crossed Waterloo Bridge - Markov died of ricin poisoning four days later.
Like seriously dude, you think the PAP are going to send an poison umbrella wielding assassin to gun down your entirely family if you fill up that form? Okay those Eastern European communist regimes were pretty fucking evil back in those days, I know the PAP is bad but not quite on that scale. Like what do they think they can possibly do to you? No, there's nothing they will do because you are not a threat to them - unlike Markov who remained constantly antagonistic to the communist Bulgarian government whilst in London. Look the PAP have bigger fish to fry: they have real people like Roy Ngerng and Tan Hui Hui within Singapore who are constantly trying to stir up shit in Singapore and galvanize the opposition. Their energies and "poison umbrellas" will be reserved for the likes of Roy Ngerng and Tan Hui Hui - not people like you who are far away and have no intention to get involved in what goes on in Singapore. Why would the PAP waste any time and energy with someone like you? You're no dangerous criminal, you're not a threat! Have you done anything wrong? On what basis could they harass you for? They have far better things to do.
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| You are clearly not a threat to the PAP. |
Furthermore, from a legal point of view, it is not just your right but your duty to renounce your Singaporean citizenship once you have acquired the nationality of another country. Singapore does not and has never permitted you to hold dual nationality - that is why the moment you have acquired other nationality, you are obliged to renounce your Singaporean nationality within a reasonable period of time. I don't know how long you have held your other nationality for, but I must assume from your post that it has been quite a while already and you have been, effectively, breaking the law in Singapore for every day you held two nationalities - something expressedly forbidden by Singaporean law.
Now I have an old classmate who moved to New Zealand and acquired NZ citizenship years ago - yet he held on to his Singaporean passport. It soon became clear to him - no one in NZ was going to inform the authorities in Singapore that he had become a NZ citizen and there was no way the Singaporean authorities were going to know unless he was dumb enough to show up at Changi airport with his NZ passport - he kept this up for many years and has Singaporean-Kiwi dual-nationality. So technically speaking - yes it is a crime to try to do the dual nationality thing when you're Singaporean but in practice, it is highly unlikely that you would be caught unless you're really careless.
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| Singaporean law is very clear: dual-nationality is not allowed. |
So on that basis, the Singaporean authorities cannot force you not to renounce your Singaporean passport once you have declared that you have obtained the nationality of another country - their hands are tied by Singaporean law, they must - by Singaporean law - help you renounce your Singaporean citizenship because you are obeying the law in Singapore. Do you understand?Singaporean government officials have to follow Singaporean law to the letter - and I assure you that they are very good at that. They don't just make up bullshit as they go along- rather, they follow the law as it is so very strictly because they are Singaporeans. Thus there is really nothing they can stop you (or any other Singaporean) from choosing to leave Singapore for good and become the citizen of another country - this is Singapore we're talking about, not North Korea or Cuba. Thousands of ex-Singaporeans like myself have left in the past and thousands more will leave in the future and there is no incentive for the Singaporean government whatsoever to 'reject' your application to renounce your nationality without a good reason. What would constitute a good reason for them to reject your application then?
I imagine if you had skipped bail whilst awaiting trail for a serious crime - then you are effectively an international fugitive, much like the case of Alvin Tan. Or if you have some outstanding business with the Singapore Armed Forces - for example, if they say that you still have to go back to Singapore to finish serving your national service or if you have any other outstanding disciplinary issues with them. You see, this is a tricky point as I don't know what your situation is with the SAF: okay you have been abroad all this time and now you're too old to serve NS, but does that automatically let you off the hook on the basis of your age? I can't answer that question - only the SAF can and feel free to ask them. I can only refer you to the case of the famous British pianist Melvyn Tan who was in exactly the same situation as yourself - please read the official statement from MINDEF on Tan's case here. Tan eventually paid a S$3000 fine for not having served NS and whilst it isn't a huge amount, you have to decide if that is a position you want to put yourself in. Nonetheless, in Tan's case, he wanted to spend time in Singapore to be involved in the local arts scene as well as to be with his aged parents - you however, clearly don't share that desire so you have far less to worry about.
As for the highly intrusive forms, allow me to assure you that it is a cultural thing. I did stay on in Singapore until I completed my NS and left only at the ripe old age of 21. But whilst I was in NS, I was sitting on pretty good 'A' level results and had plenty of free time on my hands, thus I applied for a large number of scholarships. And guess what? They were all highly intrusive as well, asking me for details of my extended family and I was like, hang on - are you going to decide whether I am worthy of your scholarship on the basis of what my grandfather did for a living or whether my sister is married or not? How irrelevant is that? What do any of those factors have to do with me as a scholarship candidate? But I suppose that's a cultural thing - it was not just one form from one organization that was that intrusive, every single one of them were without exception.
Likewise, allow me to share with you some information on the NS experience (since you didn't serve NS), they kept a LOT of information on every single soldier. Oh yeah, you would be aghast at the level of detail my unit had on each and every single personnel there - I guess what would come across as a huge intrusion of personal privacy is simply standard practice in Singapore. Please. There is nothing sinister going on here - just a clash of cultures, really.
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| The SAF kept a lot of personal information on all their personnel. |
I have worked in Europe (mostly in the UK) for all of my professional life and I have also acted as the gatekeeper for more than one company over the years. And no, in a British context, I would never ever dream about asking my candidates for that level of detail about their families. They would not volunteer that information and I would not ask for it - it is not even part of the process. And yes I did fill up the form and gave them all those details that they asked for. I remember there was this question, "if you agree to renounce your other nationality, we will agree to allow you to keep your Singaporean nationality. Would you agree to that?" I wanted to write, "are you fucking kidding me?" But I resisted the urge and simply wrote, "no". I suppose they had to have a clause in there to allow people to change their minds, but it was so poorly phrased. And no, they didn't contact my family or anyone I listed there in my form even though I was fiercely critical of the PAP as part of the questionnaire. In short, absolutely nothing happened. I was simply sent a letter when the forms were processed and I was informed that I had successfully renounced my Singaporean citizenship. Nothing more, nothing less. That was it.
Why? Because I am not a threat to the PAP. I am not interested in toppling the PAP in Singapore. Oh and I have since have had no problems whatsoever coming and going through Singapore as well. And so relax and fill up that form. Tell your wife to stop being so paranoid - it is a cultural thing and it is something you and I will never get used to given that we've not lived in Singapore for so many years. If you do not fill up these sections fully and accurately, then you risk having your application rejected because, from their point of view, if you and your relatives have done nothing wrong, what do you have to hide? They simply don't share your wife's point of view about the situation. So if you do want to renounce your Singaporean citizenship once and for all, then please do fill up all the forms fully and accurately without feeling paranoid about them. Just get it over and done with, the way I did years ago. It's just paperwork.
I hope this helps. Please feel free to use the comments section below if you have any further questions, thanks.
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| Limpeh is spreading his wings and working in Germany. |
Limpeh/Alex, the guy said that he has not performed his NS liabilities, and by that definition, they(the authorities in Singapore) tend to be bureaucratic insofar as they will arrest the guy if he even as much as lands on Singaporean soil for the sake of transit or stopover. A Canadian Chinese friend of mine was born in Singapore, and no matter how much he tried to renounce citizenship, so as to avoid the trouble of all this being possibly arrested (it has happened before to others who did not do their NS), the side of SAF in fact told him to go back to Singapore! I am not sure what I can say about this, but about renouncing citizenship, what my immigration consultant had told me before a long time back is that if you have two passports, including a Singaporean one, the legal age is 21 for renunciation of the Singaporean one, so by hook or crook, you have to perform the NS liability before you revoke the citizenship. Otherwise, you should not ever land on Singaporean soil to begin with if you have never performed NS at all. As for family, they are not affected and will not be, since they are not Singaporeans to begin with.
ReplyDeleteSigh, I am not an expert either. But from what he told me, this guy left in his mid teens, let's call that 14-15 or so years old. Well, say he followed his parents who went to work abroad then, he couldn't have automatically naturalized as a citizen in his new country - so he would have held onto his pink IC long into his late teens by which time, even if he had acquired another passport, it would have been too late to 'siam' NS as he would have already been called up for NS.
DeleteSo that puts him in the Melvyn Tan category: he's currently too old to serve NS, but the Singaporean authorities could have a grudge against him and punish him, either financially or making him serve a jail sentence. Melvyn Tan got away with just a S$3000 fine though.
He has made it clear though, that he has no intention to even transit through Changi airport ever, so let me get your opinion on his main question then: is there a risk to him or to his family should he fill up this form to renounce his citizenship? Is it a pointless exercise as there is unfinished business between him and the SAF then? He seems to think that his distant relatives in Singapore would be rounded up and sent to Changi prison - which come on, is pretty far fetched.
Kevin, how old is your friend? Is he over 40 like me and tried to renounce?
DeleteI left around 17 when my whole family migrated. It says in the renunciation form that the government "may" withhold the application, but I wasn't sure if it applies to my case as I am no longer subject to the Enlistment Act. I sent inquiries to CMPB and ICA but was passed around a little bit, until they sent me the package.
Alex, thanks for trying to get clarifications on my situation. I find your blogs informative and well written. A sign of solid education at VJC.
Sorry to split hairs with you but I have to so totally disagree with you about crediting my writing to a sign of solid education at VJC. Don't give them the credit - give me the credit.
DeletePerhaps you've been away from S'pore too long, but let me explain: I spent but 2 years at VJC and I assure you, everyone there was smart. You needed pretty darn good O level grades to gain a place there, so VJC doesn't take your average Singaporean kid and makes him smart - hell no, they take already smart kids who have great results already and it's amazing how little they have to do in those 2 years.
Perhaps you wanna give the credit to my secondary school then? But wait, the same problem applies too - everyone in my secondary school (RI) was super smart because you had to get the top PSLE grades to even gain a place there in the first place. So it was not like RI was taking stupid kids and turning them into geniuses - hell no, they were already accepting the top brains in each cohort anyway.
And if you wanna go the other direction, I can dismiss my universities (excellent ones may I add) with the same theory.
So perhaps you wanna give the credit to my primary school teachers then? They took in a mixed ability class from the local catchment area. But wait, some of them failed their PSLE whilst I made it to RI.
So - what can we learn from this? Stop giving credit to the institution, start giving credit to the individual. #patmyselfontheback
He's in his 40's. The thing was that he kept onto the pink IC although he ought to renounce it, and well, the Singapore authorities withheld the application for renunciation precisely because of that. The 'bait' they tried on him was to tell him to go back to Singapore for the logistical stuff...uhhhh....and because of that, he never stepped foot at all, but when his late father had cancer then many years back, they could not meet in Singapore, and had to meet halfway in Canada. Thankfully, his elder brother is in Singapore, and has done his NS unlike him. I guess that the catch is this: you can do your NS before 21, get the heck out of Singapore if you want to after, and they can place you on some indefinite hold or whatever, but do not ever try to think that you can skip that NS liability because by hook or by crook, they will try to have a hold on you for skipping that! My friend still holds a lot of resentment against the Singaporean government for that because it separated him and his family. (After all, his family all moved to Canada eons ago, and it was only his parents' subsequent choice to go back to Singapore later on which had set in motion the process of their separation as a family.)
DeleteHmm... I don't quite follow your friend's logic to hold on to the pink IC if this means able to renounce or not. I would give that up in a heart beat.
DeleteThe other question is, ok now he's in his 40's, but did he try to renounce when he was younger than 40 and thus subject to the Enlistment Act? He has tried to renounce after he has turned 40, which is the question I'm trying to find out. Note that unlike your friend, I have no intention of going back. My entire immediate family have all migrated from Singapore.
How is meeting in Canada considered 'halfway'? Oh please. Meeting in Malaysia or Thailand is halfway. Hong Kong even. Meeting in Canada is not halfway. What is the point of him holding on to his pink IC anyway? Kev - your friend's situation doesn't make any sense (or at least, could you explain further?)
DeleteOops, sorry. I was in a rush to church, and typed it wrongly. They met in Malaysia, and so that is halfway. About his case, he has called numerous times even in his 40's, but it did not yield any results as much as his attempts in youth to do so. And no, he had no intention in youth to hold onto the pink IC. The Singaporean side was the one which refused to let him do it.
DeleteNot a problem at all. It was easy for us too. Just paperwork. Of course they had to ask for personal information. We didn't do anything wrong, so we couldn't care less. I hope your reader feels more comfortable now. See, other people have done it too. Bye bye PAPa!
ReplyDeleteDi, Kevin Jang has a point - I think the issue is a bit more complex because the guy has unspent NS liabilities but I am not sure if all is forgiven now he is too old for NS ? Like was he allowed to defer NS all this time or did they say "no you must return to Singapore within x-number of years or else." I don't have the full story.
DeleteDi, how old were your children when you renounced for them, I presume?
DeleteI have not been in contact with Mindef since I left more than two decades ago. We just left and my NS was not deferred, and no bond posted. It is probably still a sticking point with Mindef, but my heart is with my family, and it didn't make sense even at that time to spend an extended time away from my immediate family when we were trying to start fresh in another country.
Oh it made no sense for you to go back to Singapore to waste 2.5 years of your life to serve NS when you had zero intention of spending your adult life in Singapore. So you're right, it's probably still a sticking point with MINDEF but since you weren't made to post a bond - gee, I don't know, quite possibly your case may have fallen through the cracks. I don't even want to start guessing why - only they can tell you what your status is with them, you can but ask.
DeleteOk, I was not thinking of the NS baggage. My hubby and I renounced when we were childless. My husband had served his 2.5 NS sentence, and he had always asked MINDEF permission to skip reservist or delay it, I forgot which. In order words, he was in good standing when he renounced. We have a friend who came to Canada when their boys were teenagers. My understanding is that MINDEF want their blood. I know they are Canadian citizens now, but I don't know if they have renounced their Singapore citizenship. Regardless, the 2 boys are not allowed to step onto Singapore soil because they did not serve NS. So, as far as visiting Singapore goes, I am pretty sure you can kiss that goodbye no matter how many years have passed. Apparently had the kids been very young (before IC?) when they left, it would not have been a problem. My guess is the worse for you is not being able to visit Singapore again. I wouldn't worry about being in contact with them though. I suggest writing down all your questions and calling them if you do not want to divulge your name and address.
DeleteTrust me Di, you did your son a HUGE favour in raising him Canadian and not Singaporean.
DeleteI agree with Di. What harm can be done with the names/addresses/details of your relatives? It's not thr Stasi in East Germany. It is more born out of a bureaucratic culture obsessed with documenting every detail, rather than any secret police out to arrest everyone connected with you.
Let me give you an idea of just how politically incorrect Singapore is in this aspect okay? We had this ritual in primary school. The kids on the first day of school would stand up one by one and introduce themselves. The teacher wanted to know a few pieces of info: your name, your birthday, your hobbies, your favourite subject, where you live and WHAT YOUR PARENTS DID FOR A LIVING. You would never do that in the West!!! That's like full disclosure to everyone in your class: so if you were poor (ie. you can work that out from the address), or if your parents had crap jobs, then you had to tell that to everyone in the class on your first day of the academic year. Nobody gave a toss about privacy and that's just the way it was. Sure it's painful by our Western standards, but that's their social context: we just have to be careful not to judge them too harshly by our western standards now that we're clearly no longer a part of their culture.
I know a Malaysian Chinese guy in Sydney, Australia, who is actually the cousin of the late Lim Chin Siong(that guy who was wrongly accused of being a communist sympathizer by Lee Kwan Yew and his associates in a bid to commit character assassination politically). He told me that if he ever goes to Singapore to try to find work, when that ever gets out about his relations, he is unlikely to get a job via this 'guilty by association' factor. I do not know how true this will be in the private sector, but if he applies to the public sector, it might factor in. So, there you have about the politically incorrect bit concerning Singapore.
DeleteAnd well, introducing what your parents do for crying out loud. So what if your father is a butcher or that your father does something menial? There is nothing absolutely wrong with doing something for a job as long as it is done with hard work and without breaking laws. I don't believe that it is a case of caring nothing about privacy alone, but simply insensitivity which is ingrained in the education system in Singapore. Students might get laughed at by richer peers for having poorer or middle class parents, and seriously, I never caught up with my high school classmates because they disrespected my father by laughing at his profession. Spoilt rich brats.....
ICA is asking for NRIC #'s for my parents and siblings, but they also have foreign citizenship. I'm concerned this disclosure would to get them implicated because they have dual citizenships, which is not allowed. Would ICA start a more thorough investigation into them because of this?
DeleteWhy would I event want to put my wife and kids names and info down when they are not even Singaporeans to start with?
What about selective disclosure? Laying out all my cards on the table gives ICA all the advantage.
OK I cannot justify this culture of theirs, with an obsession with gathering data in minute detail, for crying out aloud I am British and have not lived in Singapore for an awfully long time.
DeleteAs for your parents & siblings, they are breaking the law by having dual nationality - that's not allowed, but you do not need to declare that to them on your form explicitly. You can say, "my sister's NRIC is S7612345A." You don't need to go as far to as to tell them, "she has also broken the law in Singapore by also holding Canadian citizenship, this is her address, please arrest the fucking traitor." Oh please. Giving them the details of your family members doesn't tantamount to telling the ICA to arrest your family members - as long as you do NOT tell them that they have broken the law. And surely you're not as stupid as that. They have not found out about their Canadian passports all this time, so how would your statement spark off any suspicions, unless you're dumb enough to tell them about the Canadian passports (which you won't).
You put down the names of your wife and children because not doing so would mean not completing the form and the ICA would throw out your form and reject your application over that technicality. And you're very, very naive about this whole 'selective disclosure' bullshit. Look, you're giving these people an excuse to reject your application on a minor technicality.
I say either do it properly (and that means filling up the form and giving the information they ask of you truthfully, honestly and completely) or just don't fucking do it (and don't ever go to Singapore ever again). You are extremely naive (sorry to be so fucking blunt) by thinking that you can do this your way and you tell them what you want and they are suppose to make an exception for you just because your wife isn't happy blah blah blah - like who the fuck do you think you're dealing with and why would those bureaucratic pencil pushers make any kind of exception for you? Get real dude, are you high or something?
As for the ICA, what the fuck do you think they're gonna do with the names of your wife and kids? Like they're gonna send out snipers to shoot them all in the head the moment you submit that info? Yeah right, even North Korea doesn't do that - so what the fuck are you so paranoid about? It's gonna disappear into some file and gather dust for eternity. And that's it. There are no fucking snipers out to shoot your wife in the head when she's getting the groceries on a saturday morning.
And Kevin,
Delete1. As for why anyone would be upset about not being able to work for the government in Singapore is beyond me. Fucking hell. I couldn't think of a worse predicament than to be stuck working for the government in Singapore. At least when you're in the private sector, there would be the possibility of getting the fuck out of Singapore. That's just my perspective. The work culture sucks so bad in Singapore and is at least slightly better in the private sector.
2. As for the forced public disclosure of one's parents' jobs in primary school - I think that's wrong. I'm not here to look down on kids who parents had menial jobs which paid peanuts. I'm here to protect the privacy of the children who may prefer not to be made in front of the whole class on the first day of school and say, "my father is a cleaner, my mother is a servant." And then the bitch of a teacher would say, "so you must study very hard at school, so you will get a good job and you won't end up like a cleaner like your father." You're totally missing the point Kev, we're not here to say that it's wrong to look down on people who have menial jobs - I'm here to say that young children deserve to be treated tactfully with some respect for their personal privacy. And if the kid said, "my father is a doctor/lawyer/engineer" - then the teacher would say, "then you must study hard so you will be just like your father."
This was bullying, fucking ugly bullying on the part of the teacher - humiliating and intimidating the poor kids whose parents didn't have good jobs. And you can't see that and you turn that into some big moral statement about how you don't look down on people with menial jobs? Boy, talk about missing the point Kev. #cantseethewoodforthetrees
So let me explain it to you in simple terms: it's not about YOU Kevin Jang. It's nothing to do with you. I'm talking about a very politically incorrect society where people have no regard for personal privacy or tact. It has nothing to do with rich kids laughing at poorer kids - my point is that even if the rich kids didn't say anything about the poor kids who had parents with menial jobs, it is still intrusive, if not downright wrong, to force people to divulge such personal details.
We are not on the same wavelength, it appears, and so, I will let it pass.
DeleteNow this just brings back bad memories of my early years in school. The kids whose dads were bank managers or some pencil pusher did look down on the kids whose dad sold chicken rice at a stall. And the stupid teachers did tell the "poor" kids to study harder. Come to think of it, I have never thought of asking my students to announce what their parents do. Name and hobbies yes. Darn it! I hated my life in Singapore! It is the same culture that wants to know how much you make. Sorry to vent. I just want to say to renounce sg not to be alarmed by amount of personal information asked. That's just part of the process. Besides, they cannot do anything to your family or relatives. They are not the Taliban!
Delete@renounce-sg I was reminded of a couple of brothers in your exact position, refer to specimen A: http://www.singsupplies.com/showthread.php?t=2989
ReplyDeleteThey tried and failed for decades to renounce their Singaporean citizenship and it would likely be the same for you. Unless you have friends in high places or are a famous pianist like Melvyn Tan you will not get off lightly for escaping your NS liabilities.
@LIFT I had an ex-classmate you used to be from RI that had to drop out of polytechnic due to not making the grade (failed some core module 2x). So not all RI students ended up going to superb JC much less universities.
Oh I am not claiming that all RI or VJC students are superb. But my point is quite simply that the post-PSLE streaming system in Singapore means that you do not get a mixed ability class in each school, but students of more or less the same calibre AT THE POINT OF ENTRY. Sure there are RI and VJC students who didn't go on to do much with their lives and those from neighbourhood schools who achieved a lot - let's not turn this into a discussion about elitism. My point is that you should give the individual the credit for whatever achievement s/he has done, rather than give the credit to the school per se. I'm a good writer because... well I am blessed with that talent. No teacher taught that skill to me.
DeleteNot so much mixed ability but kind of similar financial resources (upper middle or high income). You will notice that RI, RGS are located in quite upmarket neighborhoods. Due to their independent status with MOE, their school fees are higher and it is not unheard of for poorer families to choose not so prestigious schools due to lack of financial ability.
DeleteSo yes I would agree with you to not judge a person based on their alma mater but by their individual merit (or lack thereof). I personally don't think too much of someone just because i heard he/she had graduated from NUS. Oh the amount of anecdotes i have of some people makes one doubt whether they actually graduated with degrees. I wonder is it really as bad with Western universities?
Well my friend, I am a very old man and back in my day, RI wasn't an independent school yet - so it was just a school that attracted the boys with the top PSLE grades as money wasn't an issue then. But leaving aside the financial issues - are good schools great because they perform miracles, or do they simply start off with a cohort of students of very high calibre because of the selection process? Like would Oxford university gladly accept someone who has flunked his A levels? Clearly not. Hence let's give the individual the credit, not the institution.
DeleteAs for universities in the West, I have two words for you: league tables. We have 130 universities in the UK: Oxford & Cambridge are 1-2 (swapping places every few years but it's those 2), then you have the top 10 which is fairly constant. Then you have everything between so-so universities to those wallowing at the very bottom of the league tables.
So kids with great A level results will go to a university much higher up the league tables whilst those with shit results will end up at the bottom of the league table. So yeah, people do get judged by their universities in the West. But it's more like, if you went to a really good university, then the boss or the HR manager would sit up and take notice, like, "oh wow, that's impressive."
I have to say that I know of several people who went to NUS and are quite unable to think critically about ANYTHING. I have a relative who went to NUS and is quite shallow as a candy dish. Nothing insightful ever come out of her mouth. Ugh! The world can collapse as we speak, and all she would think about would be how to save her Pradas.
ReplyDeleteDi, it sounds like a former friend (note, 'former') who does not think in a lot of areas. She actually has a Master's from U of Edinburgh other than a NUS degree, but when it comes to things such as what needs changing in Singapore, all that she can do is to say that the opposition is not good enough, that Singapore is a good society to retire in for her because of entertainment....well, stupidity cannot really be salvaged in her case. She has made no attempt to understand the electoral process and its rules, such as the extremely high costs for contesting regardless of your party affiliations, which cuts off a lot of opposition party members from contesting. Thankfully, we do not talk anymore ever since I left for Japan a few years ago.....My IQ would suffer from talking to her.
DeleteHi Alex,
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's a crime to hold dual citizenship in Singapore. Please check out asingaporeanson.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/the-dual-citizenship-taboo.html
In short, Singapore *may* deprive a Singaporean of his citizenship, but he is not obliged to renounce it as soon as he obtains a foreign one.
Sorry Puppet, I read that article in detail and the only conclusion is that the blogger isn't sure himself. It was mostly a hypothetical postulation about the status of LHL now that he has been offered honorary citizenship of another state (which would be rude to reject as it is a grand honour).
DeleteRegardless, I think for the person who asked the question in the first place, it is his NS obligations that trouble him, rather than the citizenship status per se.
Yes, his NS obligations are more problematic.
DeleteBy the way, that article is not "mostly a hypothetical postulation about the status of LHL". That part about LHL was merely an introduction to the main topic of dual citizenship, as the title suggests.
The blogger "cannot find any information on Government websites which explicitly states it is an offence to hold a dual citizenship..." but he invited his readers provide the link for update if such a law exists. Since his blog post was written back in April and his blog is reasonably popular, I believe that if dual citizenship is an offence, then a reader would have pointed it out by now.
It's PAP's NS obligations bestowed on me that is causing trouble for me, and thousands of NS defaulters worldwide in my situation. Even the US has forgiven those that ran away from the Vietnam war. Why can't Singapore? Surely they are not so small minded. Or maybe they truly are.
DeleteIn my mind, and perhaps I'm a little biased, the Singapore government (be it PAP or others) should let people emigrate without recourse regarding their NS liabilities. If they want to give up citizenship, so be it. Let them. However don't come back to work and live in Singapore ever again. It is unreasonable to expect people to give up on their family problems by tending to NS obligations first. Family comes first. Who would LHL protect first? His own children, or Singaporeans. My bet is he would sacrifice his country if his children's lives are in danger. There in lies the reason why many emigrate... to greener pastures for their family.
LIFT/Alex, could you be so kind to write an article on this issue regarding NS and emigration. Your experience with NS and PAP's policies, coupled with your bluntness, would greatly add flavour to this topic. Let's expose PAP for what they truly are - power hungry, unreasonable and absolutely makes no sense to the regular masses. Greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
renounce-sg
Puppet, for your question on dual citizenship, you need to refer to the Singapore Constitution, available online:
DeleteDeprivation of citizenship on acquisition of foreign citizenship
134.—(1) The Government may, by order, deprive a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship if the Government is satisfied that —
(a)
he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 acquired by registration, naturalisation or other voluntary and formal act (other than marriage) the citizenship of any country outside Singapore or having so acquired such citizenship before the age of 18 years continues to retain it after that age; or
(b)
the citizen, being a woman who is a citizen of Singapore by registration under Article 123(2), has acquired the citizenship of any country outside Singapore by virtue of her marriage to a person who is not a citizen of Singapore.
(2) Where the Government has made an order under this Article depriving a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship, he shall cease to be a citizen with effect from the date of the order.
I'm afraid I am going to have to ask you to fight your own battles as I don't share some of your point of views particularly that about the Vietnam war defaulters. Look, the Vietnam war is ancient history, it is over - so there's little to be gained from persecuting those who dodged the draft. However, Singapore is highly unlikely to ever abolish NS, so we're talking about an ongoing situation here; and hence the comparison is hardly a fair one. I don't think it is an issue about being small minded - rather it is showing that the rule of law does apply and that if you do dodge NS, there are consequences.
DeleteNow whilst I don't agree with the general principle of NS in Singapore and I do think there are many things wrong with the way it is implemented, I do actually believe that it doesn't make sense to simply say, "oh you didn't do it, never mind" - because loads of Singaporean men did do it and suffered a lot in the process and I don't believe that there should be one set of rules for rich kids whose parents had the resources to move to Canada and a different set of rules for the ordinary kids from Ang Mo Kio who would have never ever had the chance to move away the way you did.
In any case, much of your argument has been totally irrational and based on this ridiculous fantasy that the PAP is going to send ninjas to assassinate your extended family the moment you fill up that form - the fact is, nothing is going to happen and you're kicking and screaming over absolutely nothing. You are making a ridiculous fuss like a spoilt brat over what you perceive to be an intrusion into your privacy when really, half the bullshit you spout isn't based on fact and your wife is being utterly paranoid on top of that.
Look, I am a very fair person and I fucking hate the fucking PAP. Fuck the PAP and all that - but you have got to stick to facts and not let you and your wife's ridiculous paranoia get so carried away. In any case, I have blogged plenty about NS and the PAP in a very fair manner over the years; you seem pretty new to my blog. I have been saying fuck the PAP in various guises over the years and my blog posts on NS have gone viral.
What I don't like however, is the way you seem to want me to fight your battles on your behalf. No way. I am not doing any of that. You're not happy, you fight your own battles. I'm not doing any of that shit on anyone's behalf.
Look, I'm not asking you to fight for me. In any case you've done plenty to discredit the PAP. I've actually "resigned" to the fact that I possibly am screwed, so no need to do anything on your part.
DeleteAnd please, I have not said PAP would send ninjas to assassinate my family. Don't put words into my mouth. In any case, PAP is known for making life difficult for those who do not agree with its ideology. I am not going to give out unnecessary information that could jeopardize my family... probably by not submitting the form at all. Who knows? My wife and kids (not me) could end up in transit or as some FT in Singapore 20 years from now.
And, one more thing, when we emigrated, we were NOT rich. In fact we couldn't afford even to put up the bond. So stop calling me a spoiled brat when you don't even know my circumstances then. We had some money to pay rent and food, and I had to quickly get part time jobs to supplement my studies.
Good luck and live well LIFT!
Comparison to South Korea's conscription model:
ReplyDeletehttp://oneclick.law.go.kr/CSM/OvCnpRetrieveP.laf?csmSeq=505&ccfNo=4&cciNo=6&cnpClsNo=1
Military service
Persons who are staying or residing in foreign countries may postpone the draft physical, conscription, or call of persons.
An overseas Korean subject to compulsory military service shall be deemed to have obtained permission to stay on an overseas trip till he reaches 35 in case he falls under any of the following cases before he turns 25:
① Where he or his parents have acquired either a permanent resident status (excluding any conditional permanent resident status) in a foreign country or an indefinite stay status or a long-term stay status of not less than 5 years in a country that does not enforce any permanent resident status system and have thereafter resided in the nation to date;
② Where he or his parents have acquired such resident statuses as special permanent residents or permanent residents in Japan;
③ Where he was born in a foreign country and has acquired the nationality or citizenship of country of birth and has been residing overseas to date with his parents;
④ Where he or his parents emigrated to any foreign country in accordance with the 「Emigration Act」and has been residing overseas to date; or
⑤ Where he left Korea along with his non-expatriate parents when he was under the age of 18 and has been residing overseas with them to date.
Renounce SG, the South Korean case is slightly different from the Singaporean model. I know of various Korean Americans/Canadians who were either born in South Korea or moved out to another country (USA or Canada) and acquired the citizenship there after they did their degree studies there and found employment. Being born in South Korea as a male might make you liable for military service, but when you renounce South Korean citizenship, you are not liable for any kind of military service or prison sentence, and the bureaucracy that follows you with regards to the paperwork is not the same as Singapore's.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of the Korean-Americans or Korean-Canadians that I know, the renunciation process is relatively easy, and the Korean side just voids your residency card(which is a must in most cases for Korean residents and people residing there even if you are a 'foreigner', in order to survive and for daily living purposes). Restitution of citizenship in later years when you grow old and then want to retire in South Korea as a former Korean citizen is actually easier than in Singapore too, since it is tied to the idea of 'chok-po' (family registers) which go back a long way to the roots of Korean society as a Confucian society.
My point exactly that Singapore's NS system for renunciation is too strict for whatever reasons concocted by the PAP. I mean, South Korea has a much higher threat from the North, given its nuclear capabilities, compared to what Singapore. In fact I would argue Singapore's biggest threat is from within, its so called leaders PAP, who would stop at nothing to inflate GDP numbers so they can keep collecting their million dollar salaries.
ReplyDeleteHi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteNot sure are you still active in this blog, I chanced upon your blog as I am researching for my son "deferment to renounce" his Singapore citizen.
My husband is a Canadian, we lived in Singapore when we got married, have 2 kids (oldest boy & gal), we decided to move to Canada when my son is around 4 years old. He has never attended SG schools or childcare before.
I am a permanent resident in Canada. Recently, upon reading from internet on a few articles, writers suggest to write in to Mindef to inform them of your intention to renounce your son singapore citizenship before 11 years old so that Mindef are aware once they turn 13.
Since my son is 9, I decided to email to Mindef in advance to inform them of my intention to renounce my son's sg citizeship. I got a replied from Mindef to submit for exit permit when he turn 13 yr old and subject to approval. So i email back to Mindef that "i was informed (scroll up)..by age 11 our intention to renounce..." And still i got the same generic reply to wait till he turn 13 and they attached a exit permit info sheet, it state that if he leave more than 2 years, require a bond of $75,000?? Honestly speaking, we do not have that money and being that I have a HDB, will it hold that as bond?
Did i do anything wrong here?
I am concern bcos I still own a HDB under my name where my parents live and was concern will it jeopardize it?
I was worried that I wont be able to bring my son back to Singapore for visiting once he turn 13-21 years old.
Dear Laupeh,
DeleteHi. I am assuming you're new to Blogspot and how to use it. It is very easy to find out if someone's blog is still active. I am assuming that you are looking at this on your laptop (the layout on a mobile is slightly different). Simply click on the title of the blog, in this case, it's the title at the very top of your screen - if you hover your cursor over LIFT: Limpeh Is Foreign Talent you will see it is a hyperlink. Click on that and it will load all the latest articles - as you can see from that, the last article was posted on the 31st March 2018, less than a week ago - thus that's how you know I am still actively blogging. The other way is to simply go to the root of the blog, in this case http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/ or http://limpehft.blogspot.com and it will once again load all the latest articles and you can see how recently I have posted.
Onto your question. The answers you have been given are bullshit - you probably have some bored 18 or 19 year old soldier sitting behind the computer and he has a list of replies he can give you, he would just read your email and cut & paste one of the standard replies which is completely wrong. And even if you are given the wrong information, tough shit, you can't plead with the authorities later that they have to bend the rules for you because you were given wrong information. I stress the information you're given is WRONG - because the moment your son turns 11, boom that's it. Too fucking late. He has to serve NS you're trapped. The fact that an idiot has given you the wrong information doesn't change shit.
I advice you to do the following: contact the Singapore embassy in Canada (or the closest Singaporean consulate to you in Canada) and speak to them about the situation rather than MINDEF. This is an immigration issue that they will be far more familiar with whilst the fucking idiots at MINDEF are only familiar with very standard exit permit inquiries. In fact, I am going to forgive you because you're a woman but you do realize that MINDEF are mostly staffed by fucking idiots who are brain dead, how can you trust them with something as important as this? Hell no. You need to speak to both the Singaporean embassy/consulate/high commission in Canada as well as Immigration & Checkpoints Authority of Singapore (ICA) as this is strictly an IMMIGRATION and citizenship matter. Why the hell are you going to MINDEF, they only deal with exit permits whilst your son's case is to do with a totally different matter. Part 2 coming up
In short, yeah, you did do something wrong. You shouldn't have gone to MINDEF and the right response they should have given you is simply, "you're barking up the wrong tree Ma'am, wrong number, salah. You need to speak to ICA and not MINDEF about this matter about your son, the ICA would be able to give you the correction information about what steps you need to take. Your son is only 9 years old, he's not part of our MINDEF's system yet. Please speak to the ICA or your local Singapore high comm/embassy for more information but don't ask us!" Yeah that should have been their response, instead, the brain dead fucker at MINDEF gave you a completely wrong response (why am I not surprised) and I'm glad at least you didn't blindly trust them like some brain dead Singapore and at least came to me to verify this.
DeleteAnd for fuck's sake, this is not North Korea. You think the PAP will shoot your parents on Orchard Road and confiscate all your family's property the moment your son renounces his citizenship? What the fuck, like honestly, that kind of shit only happens in North Korea. Not Singapore. Loads of Singaporeans move away, it happens there are no fucking penalties, HDB flats are not just confiscated out of spite - if anyone has told you that, then guess what? There are a lot of fucking idiots out there who don't have a fucking clue what the fuck they're talking about.
Renounce your son's citizenship through the ICA - and he can visit Singapore as often as he likes once he is a Canadian who no longer holds Singaporean nationality. I visit Singapore regularly as a British citizen and ex-Singaporean and have had absolutely no trouble whatsoever, loads of people have been in the position of your son and have had no problems visiting.
Lastly, lady, be careful where you get your information from. Do not bark up the wrong tree. Speak to government officials or immigration lawyers. Do not trust the hearsay you get on forums on the internet or from friends who haven't a freaking clue what the hell they're talking about. It is very clear to me that you've been fed a pile of bullshit about your son's situation and you don't know what to believe anymore. Just because someone tells you something doesn't mean it is true - check with the government officials before you just believe it. And if in doubt, feel free to check with me.
But you're not the first - there's so much misinformation and downright bullshit lies out there, you just have to be discerning what you believe.
Now the only people who get into trouble are those who either willfully break the rules or perhaps carelessly do so - here's the thing though: it's not like the rules are so hard to understand, or like they're some kind of cryptic mystery that nobody actually knows what they are. Having dealt with the ICA, they are clear, transparent and helpful in terms of giving information about exactly what their rules are. It is your responsibility to know what the rules are, go to the ICA and seek their advice and if necessary, verify it with an immigration specialist. Don't mess it up, don't break the rules - but if you follow the rules carefully and do everything according to the rules, then nothing will go wrong.
DeleteLike seriously, going to MINDEF for immigration advice, like, what the hell were you thinking?
Hi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteFor some reason I only found out you replied today, sorry for my late reply snd Yes, i am not IT internet savvy.
Thank you for pointing out to me and I was wary abt MINDEF reply and did seem not right.
So, can I just email ICA about renouncing of citizenship? And also telling Singapore High Commission about my son renoucement?
I did make a terrible mistake when i make my son SG passpprt, ICA asked whether did he hold any other nationality outside of SG, i said no. Will it hold that against me when filing for my son renoucement?
Also i plan to take my kids to sg this year, my son will be 10, he will be holding Canada passport, will that be risky to take him back without renoucement yet?
Thank you so much for your response. I wasn't expecting you will reply.
Dude, it has been like 5 years. Have you not already sorted out your immigration status yet?
DeleteYou need to do more than email the the ICA about renouncing the citizenship - it is not a process you can do via email. You need to show up at the SG High Comm nearest to you in person in Canada and then sort that out in person, you will probably need an appointment so you're emailing them merely to ask them for that appointment. When you show up, you'll have all kinds of forms to fill in and a fee to pay. The forms that the SG High Comm will give you are from the ICA, but it will be processed at the SG High Comm and the forms will then be sent back to Singapore to be processed, you will then be informed by mail in due course (a couple of weeks) once it is confirmed.
You should have never lied to the ICA. But as I don't work for them, I can't speak on their behalf what they will do to you (or your son) - this is just one of those cases where you hope for the best and expect the worst.
I would recommend that you start the process to renounce your child's passport ASAP, like today. Then take him back after you've renounced it - it is a process that takes just a few weeks tops. Singaporeans are pretty efficient after all.
Let me wade in and say that it is probably too late for laupeh's son since he lied and according to MFA he needs to inform them of his sons intension to surrender his citizenship before he turns 11.
DeleteAlso he must not have enjoyed any citizenship privileges like subsidised healthcare, education, etc. Otherwise he would not be allowed to surrender the citizenship before completing NS.
Consider this a case of ignorant parents, his sons needs to either complete NS or stay away from SG for life.
Hi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteMy first post to you was last year Apr 2018 so no i have not sorted out.
The nearest SG high commission is 24 hrs drive away, does my son need to be present? They work short hour till noon. I think it would be like a summer trip in Jul or Aug. So i can make appointment way ahead of time? I am in the midst of renewing my sg passport also, i wonder can i make appointment and do both together.
Thank you for your advice.
Do you know how much is the fee? $$, $$$, $$$$?
Aaaah okay, this article was from 2014 but your original post was in 2018.
DeleteBut still dude, it's been 9 months and you can't just sit on the problem hoping that it would go away.
I think the best thing for you to do is to pick up the phone and CALL the SG High commission and talk to them. Need I point out the obvious:
- I don't work for them.
- I don't even a Singaporean.
- I am not even in Canada, I am in the UK.
- When I did this, it was many years ago and I did it in London.
So for questions like "does my son need to be there", just ask them (and NOT me). And all those other questions - like dude, WTF seriously? You think I fucking work at the SG High Comm in Toronto or Ottawa? Seriously? Like how the fuck would I know such things? Just fucking pick up the phone and call them - you know how phones work? And as for the fee they are gonna charge you, I refer you to my previous reply - how the fuck would I know? Either google it (you know how google works?) or call them (you know how phones work?). Sheesh. You're taking the piss now.
Ok, thanks. Yup i know i couldn't sit on it and plan to work on it this year before he turn 10.. and for some reason, your 1st reply did not come through my email.
ReplyDeleteThanks, will check with them.
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ReplyDelete