Interview: Why are rich Chinese people leaving China in droves?

In a recent article, I interviewed Ms Chen about the anti-social behaviour of Chinese people abroad. Both Ms Chen and I were astounded by the amount of readers who have read the article and liked the article on social media - the reproduction of that article on TRS has generated over 1600 Facebook likes and that interview has well and truly gone viral. Thus buoyed by the success of that article, I have sat down with Ms Chen again over a cup of tea and some nice biscuits and have decided to tap her brains to gain some insight into a different issue: the modern Chinese exodus from China. We have both read an excellent article on the WSJ about this exodus and I had some questions for her.

Limpeh: Ms Chen, thanks for doing yet another interview with me in such a short space of time.

Chen: Thank you too! I can't believe there are like thousands and thousands of people in Singapore and beyond who are that interested in my opinions, but if I am able to help shed some light on these issues through your blog, then I am thrilled to be a part of this project. I do find these interviews fun to participate in and talk about these topics.

Limpeh: In the WSJ article, it was reported that a survey by the Shanghai research firm Hurun Report shows that 64% of China's rich - defined as those with assets of more than $1.6 million - are either emigrating or planning to. Now I am a bit shocked, 64% - that is a rather high figure. Do you think this figure is accurate? Or are you, like me, a bit skeptical about this report? What are your thoughts about this report - is it an accurate representation of the current situation?

Chen: There is no doubt that a lot of richer Chinese people want to move abroad, it has been hard to put a precise figure on it until this report has been published. Without a report like that, all we can do is "guestimate" just how many rich Chinese people want to move abroad. I think I would have thought that the figure was lower, 64% is high but how many of them will actually follow through? It is one thing to have the intention to emigrate, let me give you an example. I can have the intention to study French but will I ever follow through with it and one day become completely fluent in French? Who knows? I still only know about 15 to 20 words in French today despite having had the intention of study French for years, I'm terrible, I keep procrastinating. Please nag at me to do it, I will study French properly one day.

There is no doubt that many rich Chinese people have left China - but more to the point, it is not just the rich who have left China but those who are well-educated and highly skilled. Unless you meet the strict criteria set by Western countries, you're not going to get a work permit to take up a job in somewhere like America, Canada, the UK or Australia - so we're talking about quite a serious brain drain from China to the West as it is the most talented and highly skilled who are leaving, only they have the option of leaving. The poor, uneducated are unlikely to get a job in somewhere like Australia or Canada because they will never ever score enough points on the points based emigration criteria - the bar is set way too high for them.

Limpeh: Unless they want to go to Singapore, the bar is set pretty low for Singapore.

Chen: Well, I can't comment on that - it has never occurred to me to consider Singapore as a place to live.

Limpeh: Why not?

Chen: It is a very densely populated country. I think you have 5 million people packed into a very small island.

Limpeh: 5.3 million actually and the figure is growing.

Ms Chen doesn't like overcrowded cities.

Chen: Right,. I have actually visited Singapore before en route to Australia and it just strikes me as an incredibly crowded, congested, overpopulated place. No offence to your Singaporean readers, sorry. It is a modern city sure, but woah, too many people. I grew up in the outskirts of Tianjin, okay that may be a big city, much bigger than Singapore, but I remember in the weekends being able to escape to my grandparents' house in the countryside and seeing fields, forests, the hills and having space to wander, walk down the stream, pick wildflowers and hike up the hills. I remember these cold crisp winter mornings when there would be ice and frost on the ground and the hills were shrouded in light mist - my grandfather would be sitting outside in the garden no matter how cold it was, sipping hot tea, being at one with nature. I loved it, it was so serene and calm. At least in England, I can jump in my car and drive out to the countryside and have some me time during the weekends and holidays. You just can't do that in Singapore, it's not the kind of place you go to if you like to have a lot of space or nature.

Limpeh: Does the Chinese government not care if so many of their well educated, talented young people like yourself are seeking a future outside China? Are they not even alarmed or concerned by this brain drain at all?

Chen: No. (Laughs) The simple answer is no. They don't care because China is so big. There are 1.35 billion Chinese people in China - if a few million leave, like so what? There are still over a billion left there. If you're talking about a small country with less than a million people, then it would be an issue. But in China, the current brain drain amounts to less than 1% of the total population of China. And there is this sense of optimism in China. If some engineers migrated to America, the reaction would be, "so what? We have so many great universities pumping out excellent engineering graduates every year. We won't miss those who have left China." In fact the young graduates are quite grateful for those who have left, otherwise there would be this glut of highly educated graduates who cannot find professional jobs, given how most Chinese parents are doing anything and everything to ensure that their children go to university.

Unemployment is also a problem amongst young graduates in China.

During the Korean war when China supported North Korea and America supported South Korea back in the 1950s. America had money and weapons for the South Koreans, China only had manpower. China sent troops to be no more than cannon fodder for the Americans. Did you know that there were more Chinese soldiers involved in the Korean war than Korean soldiers? Such is China for you - the biggest resource that we have plenty of is people, we are the world's most populous country. There is no shortage of people, so if some Chinese people want to go, nobody cares.

Limpeh: What are some of the main reasons for young Chinese people to want to leave China today?

Chen: Where do I begin? I think those who want to leave are generally those who are well educated and speak English and other foreign languages well. Knowledge is power - if you can read in English, then that allows you to access media, information and news from around the world, you learn about things that are happening in America, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Italy, Canada, Germany... You learn that things are done differently in other countries, that there is a genuine alternative to the way things are in China and it is possible to embrace that simply by moving to another country the way so many other Chinese people have. It is not unusual to have a friend or relative who has moved to another country, away from China. Word gets around.

Limpeh: That is true - Chinese people have long had a tradition of moving away from China, the same way my ancestors have found their way from China to South-East Asia, to Singapore and Malaysia all those years ago.

Chen: It tends to be those who are better educated who leave China. Because if all you can read is Chinese, then you are consuming news, media and culture that tends to be quite local to you and this is a cycle that reinforces itself. The more you consume only local culture, the more it shapes your view of the world, the more unfamiliar foreign culture becomes. Actually, I do know quite a lot of people back in China who are just like that.

Limpeh: The phrase 井底之蛙 comes to mind - 'frog at the bottom of the well'.

Chen: That's harsh, but true. So young Chinese people who do have the hunger to find out about the rest of the world, who do make the effort to learn English so as to access foreign media, well they will usually be the ones who realize, hey things are so different in other countries and be naturally curious to find out more. This is something English speakers take for granted as they are already in such a good position to access so much of the world's media and information - that's a luxury Chinese people don't readily have. 

Limpeh: A lot of people talk about Chinese people coming to work in places like Singapore to earn money, so they can send home to their families. I understand that Chinese immigrants leave China for a variety of reasons, but how often is financial gain the primary motivating factor? Or is making money just one of many factors in this decision?

Is it all about making money abroad?

Chen: Thanks for acknowledging that financial gain is just one of many factors - what you have described about Chinese workers going to work in Singapore and then sending money back home only represents a minority of these cases. It is a fallacy to think that these Chinese workers in somewhere like Singapore are much better off. The cost of living in a city like Singapore is on par with any major Western city, it is a rather expensive city to live in so what kind of life are you going to have in Singapore, if you're watching every dollar you spend, sending the majority of your savings back to China? You won't be living in a nice house, you won't be having nice meals, you won't be able to go shopping and buy nice clothes, you won't be able to do the fun things that Singapore has to offer, you can never go on nice holidays - it would be a bloody miserable life in Singapore for people who do put themselves in such positions.

Well, I am sure that there are Chinese people who may choose to make such grand sacrifices for their families - but let's get real here. How many people would gladly put themselves through something like that just so their children or other family members can have a good life? Are Chinese people really that 伟大 (noble)? Not from what I have observed! I think you have to be realistic here - please let's not imagine that they all are so 伟大, in reality, once you're abroad, you're going to want to prove yourself, you have a point to make to show those back home that you have made the right decision to move abroad, but otherwise, they are probably far more interested in their personal wealth, their career progression and what gains they can make for themselves, rather than for those back home in China.

Life in Singapore is not a bed of roses for PRC migrant workers.

The fact is if all you want to do is make money, then you do not need to even leave China. There are plenty of opportunities in China for those who are business minded to make it big, become millionaires and succeed - there are so many millionaires in China today who have made their fortunes in China. Think about it - China is probably the most exciting market to operate in today and you can take advantage of the many gaps in the market as Chinese consumers are hungry for anything and everything available in the West. As long as you don't provoke the government by meddling in politics, you'll won't get into trouble. Conversely, it is far, far harder for a Chinese person to go to Europe or America and become rich there - they face a huge language barrier, unfamiliar market conditions, they are time zones away from friends and relatives who can help them and the odds are stacked against them as foreigners trying to compete with locals! They face such a steep learning curve, establishing themselves abroad.

So those who do leave China are not necessarily seeking to make more money, but they are looking for an alternative kind of lifestyle, a different kind of future that China currently offers. They want to live like Americans and Australians, they want their kids to grow up like white people - it is a cultural thing, not a financial thing. They see these Chinese American kids who speak perfect English, have excellent exam results, go to Harvard and then get great jobs in Silicon Valley and for many Chinese parents, that's the kind of future they want for their kids. They see the sunnier side of the American dream and ignore the thousands of Chinese migrants who end up slaving away in Chinese restaurants in the Chinatowns for very little money. Not all Chinese migrants who go to places like Australia or the US are successful.

Chinese people are seduced by a different kind of lifestyle and cultural experience abroad.

Limpeh: In the WSJ article, the journalist talked about Chinese people escaping a broken China - terrible pollution, food safety, a broken education system, anxiety about an uncertain political system, corruption, a lack of political freedom - how do you feel about that? Do you feel like someone who has escaped a broken China?

Chen: I think it is somewhat exaggerated - things aren't that bad and a lot of that depends on one's individual circumstances in China. Don't get me wrong, please, I am not just blindly defending China just because I am Chinese and am from China. I just think that the situation is far more complex than what the article has described and it is somewhat unfair to make those assumptions about China today.

Limpeh: Okay, let's just tackle one of those issues raised: pollution. Surely you have to agree that the situation in China is pretty bad when it comes to pollution, you can't argue that it is a matter of perspective or opinion.

Chen: Fine let's look at pollution - it is true that pollution is a serious environmental issue that China has to deal with today, but it affects different people in different ways. If you are a university lecturer, then you are spending most of your time indoors and you're far less affected than a labourer who has to work out in the open all day, breathing in the very polluted air. The labourer would be far more susceptible to all kinds of health problems associated with the pollution compared to the university lecturer. In the hot summer months, the university lecturer would be able to relax in his air-conditioned office or home, breathing in cool, filtered air whilst the labourer simply cannot afford that luxury. So the same problem, pollution, is affecting these two people in quite different ways. It all boils down to money, really.

The poor in China suffer more than the rich - are you surprised?

Let's take another issue: education. Yes the system in China is far from perfect - that is why someone like the same university lecturer would undoubtedly turn to the private education sector to ensure that his child gets the best education money can buy. The labourer would not have the financial resources to turn to the private sector and his child would be completely at the mercy of the education system. So once again, same problem but different families are affected by it quite differently. The rich, the middle-class tend to be able to use their money to solve a lot of these problems that you have mentioned, only the poor and working class are unable to buy the solutions to these same problems and they suffer the most in today's China. But how is this different from the UK, America, Singapore or any other country? The rich have an easier life - the poor have a hard time. It is the same in any country in the world.

Limpeh: In the article, the journalist interviewed a woman who insisted that she isn't leaving China forever, that she is seeing a foreign passport as an insurance policy should things in China go wrong and they see it as just another option. What do you make of that? Do you ever see yourself returning to China?

Chen: The phrase that comes to mind is 好马不吃回头草 (a smart person does not regret his actions/choices). It is a really big decision to move abroad, it is not something that people take lightly. It's not like buying a new shirt - oh if you change your mind, you can either take it back for a refund or an exchange, sell it on eBay or give it to a friend. Moving abroad is a long process that takes a very long time - you start by studying or working abroad, you don't just get a new passport on arrival. It often starts with a student visa or a work permit that gets you your first few years in that new country, then in the meantime, you decide if things are going to work out for you there. During which time, you'll have more than enough time to decide if you're going to be happier in this new country or if you'd rather go back to China.

Ms Chen takes a cautious approach when it comes to moving abroad.

Some Chinese migrants will thrive in their new countries, others will do badly and some will just struggle on and be fairly average and mediocre. A lot of it depends on the migrant's ability to adapt to his new environment, maybe he would have to learn a new language and some migrants are very good are making new friends, seeking new allies and being able to fit into their host community easily. Others struggle and stay on the periphery, unable to to adapt to a new language and culture and encountering all kinds of problems along the way as a result of the language and cultural barriers. Those who do well will stay, those who fail may return to China - but you know, you never know till you try. Every new migrant arrives thinking they're going to make it big and succeed, but of course not all of them will.

If you're not sure if you should move out of China, then do your homework first. Speak to people, spend time in that country, then spend some time in another country- maybe you might be happier in Australia instead of Canada, maybe you'll be better off in Melbourne rather than Sydney, maybe there is a different visa you can get or a different route to follow - there's so much to find out and experience prior to making that big step. You don't take that big step if you are unsure if this is the right decision for you - now that's just common sense really. There isn't a deadline for immigration, it's not like countries like Canada or America are going to close their borders at the end of the year and you must rush in before then or you will miss the boat - no, if you're not sure yet, please just take your time to decide.

Limpeh: Does that describe your current situation?

Like me, Ms Chen is enjoying her life in the UK.

Chen: I am currently working in the UK as a Chinese expatriate. I have not been here long enough to start applying for indefinite leave to remain, but I will do so once I have chalked up enough time working here. A lot of it depends on the work situation - I am currently tied to my job because of the work permit. My work permit allows me to be in the UK to do this job, I am not allowed to find another job whilst on this work permit visa, so that's kinda frustrating knowing that there are better jobs out there but my hands are tied. So once I have this indefinite leave to remain in the UK status, then I can look for a better job, set up my own business, take a few months off, basically I'll be free to do what I want in the UK. Once I get this indefinite leave to remain, then I will have to be here for another two years before I can apply for British citizenship. I am curious to see what kind of job I can get here in London once I am no longer shackled to my work permit. But that's still some years away for now (laughs).

Limpeh: Do you think you'll do that? Apply for British citizenship?

Chen: Yes... I think so but again, a lot depends on the work situation. For me, the most important thing is to have a good job, my career comes first. So if I have a good job that takes me back to China, then okay I'll go back to China and work there. If I have a good job here in England, then I will stay in England to do that job. It will be my career path that determines it - but the way things are going, I think... well, let's just say it is quite unlikely for me to want to return to China. That decision is still a few years away for me in any case and I will cross that bridge when I come to it .

Ms Chen is putting her career first. 

Limpeh: Do you know of Chinese people who have worked abroad and then return to China?

Chen: Sure there are. It depends on where they have worked though. I remember the Honiara riots in 2006.

Limpeh: That's in the Solomon Islands, in the South Pacific.

Chen: Right, there were racial tensions between the Chinese migrants and the locals and it sparked off this massive riot which resulted in 90% of Honiara Chinatown being burnt to the ground. Many of the Chinese migrants there lost everything in a flash of an eye and were forced to return to China after having been evacuated from the island by the Chinese government for their own safety. When you have incidents like that, they come running back to China. Then you have Chinese people working in places like deepest darkest Africa - they're highly unlikely to want to settle there as these are not particularly nice countries to live in. So these Chinese workers go work in Africa, make their money, gain some international credentials, then return to China. You know, there's a huge difference between working in nice city like London or New York compared to the oil workers who end up working in Chad or Algeria in Africa.

Limpeh: The article talks about how some overseas Chinese students and expatriates still feel a strong sense of connection and loyalty to the motherland - do you think this is true or just more Chinese propaganda?

Chen: I think you have to be careful to define what this sense of loyalty is. I feel a sense of nostalgia and connection to my culture, my heritage, my family's history, where I come from. But that is not the same a sense of loyalty to the Chinese state per se. Chinese expatriates do feel a sense of connection to China - but this connection is cultural, not political. We still consume Mandarin-language Chinese media through the internet. We go to Chinatown and buy foodstuffs that reminds us of food from home. We celebrate all the major Chinese festivals, we maintain our Chinese traditions, we teach our children about our rich cultural heritage.

When I have children, I will tell them all the folklore and stories that my grandparents used to tell me when I was a little girl in Tianjin and I will definitely teach my children how to speak Mandarin There is so much culture and history for me to tap into, to feel connected with, it is a part of whom I am, it is my cultural identity. But that cultural identity has nothing to do with my nationality, what passport I hold or anything to do with the Chinese politics of today. So you can continue to feel Chinese, call it what you want: loyalty, connection, cultural identity, whatever, but it doesn't mean that it would necessary want to make me return to China and live there. I can still be Chinese without being in China, that's what millions of overseas Chinese do! When I have children, I will have to think if they would be better off being brought up in England or in China. Those are the practical considerations for me - not whether I feel this Chinese connection or not. I must be far more pragmatic, rather than sentimental - but hey, that's just me, I'm a very pragmatic person.

Ms Chen's connection to China is cultural, not political.

Limpeh: I would like to ask you about your parents please. They are like so many Chinese parents whose children are studying or working abroad and they must know that if given the chance, their child would want to stay in the West rather than return to China. Is that common? It was mentioned in the article as well, all these rich Chinese parents who are sending their children abroad to the West and even encouraging them to go. You see, in Singapore, parents are terrified of that happening, but in China it's the opposite, it is seen as an ideal outcome.

Chen: My parents are still active and healthy - though they are divorced.

Limpeh: Oh I didn't know that.

Chen: Yeah they divorced when I was 14 and it was very... civilized, I think they did their best to not fight in front of me, but it was clear to me even as a child that their marriage was not working out. Sure I was affected by the divorce, the kinds of emotions I experienced, it was not easy for a 14 year old. I lived with my mother after they divorced and I saw my father every now and then. I am a lot closer to my mother than my father. After observing my mother go through this divorce, I decided I would be financially independent, I wanted a career, I didn't want to ever depend on a man. Luckily, even though my father no longer loved my mother, he made sure I was well taken care of, that I could go to university and that I was never broke or hungry. My mother started a small business after the divorce and that is still keeping her very busy these days. Good for her, you know, I am so glad her business is successful, it's her raison d'etre..

Ms Chen was affected by her parents' divorce at 14.

So when I wanted to move to England to work, my mother kinda just accepted it as she could see it coming. She wants me to be happy and as it was a smart career move for me, it was what I wanted and needed. She supported me in my decision to go. My father had just started dating this younger woman then, so he really didn't care where I went as I was already working in Beijing at that point and even though Tianjin is like half an hour by express train from Beijing, I only saw my father a few times a year at that point, so it didn't make much difference to either of us.

But let's put things in perspective here: those rich Chinese parents who can afford to send their children abroad to study are exceedingly rich and they do not represent the vast majority of ordinary Chinese people in China who cannot even afford to go for a holiday in America. These rich parents are not hoping for their children to support them when they are elderly, they can afford to go visit their children if they miss them and for them, having a child live in America or England is no different from having that child live in another city in China. Don't forget, China is a very big country and it is not uncommon for children to leave their parents to go study at a university in another city or to go get work in another part of the country. So the apron strings of Chinese parents were never ever that tight to begin with, this is simply a function of our national geography in China. I guess things are different in a small country like Singapore.

Chinese and Singaporean parents have different perspectives on this issue.

Limpeh: Very much so. Singapore is so small that no matter where you work in the country, you can still live at home with your parents and still get to work in about an hour or just a bit more than that thanks to a very efficient public transport system. So children tend not to move out from their parents and live with them even as working adults to save money. It's a cultural thing. But moving on, what do you think will happen in the future? Will this Chinese exodus continue and grow? Or will China's economic growth entice the richest, brightest and most successful Chinese to stay in China and be a part of China's success story?

Chen: What you're seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. Give it another twenty years, that's when the young kids in China today are adults, that's when you will see a much, much bigger exodus from China to other countries. The next generation is going to grow up a lot more aware of the rest of the world, they will be better educated and have more access to technology. But do not panic, I think you'll see more well-adjusted Chinese migrants in the future who are better prepared for life in the West, there won't be that much problems caused by new Chinese unfamiliar with their new host country's culture... The exodus will get bigger but people won't notice it as much as they'll just get used to having a bigger Chinese minority in the West. This will be a gradual process over the next few decades.

Limpeh: Thank you so much for your time today. Xie xie!

Chen: My pleasure, you're welcome.