Thursday, 12 June 2014

CPF: Can the government protect stupid people from their own stupidity?

Hello everyone. I have had a lot of traffic to my blog further to my last post on the CPF minimum sum issue, I would just like to do a follow up and answer a question by someone who left a comment on the TRS website where my article was reproduced. Now allow me to categorically state that I am not attacking or criticizing Jonathan Ng who made this suggestion, I think that it is a very good thing that he is actually trying to come up with solutions and new ideas rather than simply accept the current situation as an inevitable conclusion. I wanted to respond to his suggestion to demonstrate just how tricky the situation is - so here is Jonathan's suggestion to kick us off.

"To be honest, we have to look at matters from different perspectives. Of course, the money will come in handy to families that wanted to send a child for overseas studies (due to not meeting the local Uni standards), medical bills (which i feel the government can try to subsidizes further for major illness), etc. But greed of some will harbour on those who have these excess funds, whereby when these funds is depleted, it will be like the mentioned Indian lady example. When numbers are overwhelming, it will becomes a social problem, whereby people will start to blame the government again. Suggestion is that CPF will need to adopt a case by case basis whereby the needs of their MEMBERS to deem whether the withdrawal of excess funds is allowed for this reason, whereby i reckon will be more appropriate."
"Please sir, may I make a withdrawal from my CPF?"

Okay, so what Jonathan is suggesting is that there should be a panel of people employed by the government who should decide on a case by case basis whether their request to withdraw their funds is justified and reasonable - who should sit on such a panel then? On what basis should they base their decision then? If you're not happy with their decision, who can you appeal to in that case? Let me give you an example to illustrate how tricky this situation can be, even if you do have the very best of intentions to protect the interests of the citizens by safeguarding their life savings.

Jonathan mentioned the example of a family who wants to use their CPF funds to send a child overseas for university as the child is unable to gain admission to a local university. Let's run with that analogy, after all, education is important to everyone, right? Surely it is the right of every parent to help their child get a decent education, to go to university so that the child can get a good job, right? It may seem simple, but allow me to present a tricky situation for you to look at. Suppose we have one such Singaporean family and the son "Ah Boy" has done really badly for his A levels and has no hope of getting into a local university. Hence Ah Boy has applied to universities in the UK and because his grades are so bad, the only university willing to grant this student a place is Bolton University, which is ranked 121st out of 123 universities in the UK (2014 rankings). It is a dreadful university. Do you approve this application for a CPF withdrawal, knowing that Ah Boy's degree from Bolton university is not going to be worth the paper it is printed on?
Should you go to university at all costs? Even Bolton University?

Let's put some figures on it, I refer you to this link as my source for my figures. A three-year programme at Bolton can cost approximately £18,759 a year (fees + living costs) and that works out to £56,277. Oh and we haven't added flights to and from Singapore yet. Let's add three return flights to Singapore and round that figure up to £60,000. That is S$126,000 - not a huge amount of money for a rich family (heck, rich families will not even need to dip into their CPF to spend that amount of money to buy a car, for example), but for a poorer, low-income family, S$126,000 could represent many years of savings. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether you're going to Oxford or Bolton University, you don't get a discount just because you're going to a crap university at the bottom of the league table  Let's imagine if Ah Boy's family is a low-income family, his parents work in a hawker centre and that S$126,000 represents a sizable chunk of their CPF, would you still allow them to spend it on a useless degree for Ah Boy? Or would you say no and ask them to consider alternative options for Ah Boy's education? 

If the decision maker was genuinely trying to protect the interests of Ah Boy's parents and safeguard their CPF savings, can you see how they would find themselves in a moral dilemma? Ah Boy's parents really want their son to have a degree at all costs and are willing to make sacrifices for it - they do realize that Bolton university isn't a reputable university but they still want to go ahead with it.  If this application was for the child to go to a very good university at the top of the league tables like Oxford or Cambridge university, then fair enough (one would say yes immediately), but what about Bolton? Furthermore, if you knew that the child wanted to study somehing useless like art history, philosophy or any of the ridiculous degrees listed here, these are course with very poor employment prospects: would this colour your judgement, knowing that this degree is not going to help the poor kid find a job? 
Will your degree help you get a good job? It depends on which university you went to.

Or, am I simply being elitist here? Am I doing the 'get out of my elite uncaring face' routine here?  Am I discriminating against students who are not academically gifted and simply cannot get straight As? Do students with poor grades have the right to pursue a degree at a less demanding university without the rest of us telling them that they are simply wasting their time and money? Should parents have the right to send their children to whatever university they desire without a third party passing judgement on whether it is a good or bad decision? Whose decision should that be when it is ultimately the parents (and not the state) paying for their child's degree?

Let's run with this analogy: imagine if the decision was to allow Ah Boy's parents to use their CPF money to send their son to Bolton university, he uses up S$126,000 of their savings and returns to Singapore three years later. Ah Boy's degree is useless and he is unable to get a job and is still financially dependent on his parents for years. His parents then complain, "why didn't the CPF board stop me from making that bad decision, from spending my hard earned money on a useless degree for my son? I work in a hawker centre, I am not educated, I don't understand how universities in Britain work - I expected the people at CPF board to have stopped me from making a bad decision like that! Why didn't they stop me from making that mistake? I want my money back, give me back my $126,000! How am I supposed to retire now if my son cannot find a job with that degree? I have to keep working to support my son now, instead of him being able to support his two elderly parents!" Oh dear. Talk about a tricky situation, eh? 
If you have a crap degree, don't expect it to help you find a job.

This presents a moral dilemma for anyone trying to make a judgement call on this case. Perhaps Bolton University is a rather extreme example - how about South Wales University (ranked 100th out of 123), Chichester University (ranked 76th out of 123) or Dundee University (ranked 49th out of 123)? Who gets to decide where you draw the line? You can't win either way - simply because you cannot treat education as a monolithic entity. A degree from Bolton university is not worth as much as a degree from Oxford or Cambridge but are you prepared to tell Ah Boy's parents that they are about to make a very bad decision and face their anger, because you're denying their son a chance to get a degree? Would the government want to put themselves in such a position? Clearly not. 

Let's deal with another one of Jonathan's suggestions: allowing Singaporeans to use their CPF for medical bills. Surely medical bills - that has got to be less controversial than education, right? Well what kind of medical bills then? Imagine if Mrs Pui is very fat and she wants to use her CPF savings to get liposuction to shed all that fat overnight, she literally wants the plastic surgeon to suck all that fat out of her so she can be thin. Her doctor has told her that she can lose weight the normal way: by simply adopting a far more healthy diet and exercising daily - liposuction is but a cosmetic surgery and it is an expensive option that Mrs Pui can't afford without dipping into her CPF. However, Mrs Pui hates the idea of diets and loathes any kind of exercise - she would much rather just go for liposuction. So, should Mrs Pui be granted the right to use her CPF savings for this expensive liposuction operation? Would you say yes or no to Mrs Pui's request? Let's make the case more complicated - what if Mrs Pui had to lose weight urgently otherwise she would put her health at risk, being so severely overweight. Would that then make her plea for liposuction more justified, or would you still insist that she eats only beansprouts and goes swimming for a few hours everyday? 
Should Mrs Pui be allowed to get liposuction with her CPF savings?

In both cases, there are no simple answers: it would be very difficult decision to make. Any government who puts themselves in that kind of position would risk becoming extremely unpopular if they started saying no to people like Ah Boy's parents and Mrs Pui, even if it was done with the best intentions to protect their CPF savings. So imagine if the government said no Ah Boy's parents, there would be a huge public uproar about discrimination and elitism. But if the government then caved into pressure and said yes to Ah Boy's parents, then what is the point of such a panel when you still allow people to waste vast amounts of money on useless degrees like that? 

This then becomes a thankless task which puts the government in a very difficult position, it is a game that they simply cannot win and will not play. It's as simple as that - it will not win them votes, it will not help them gain popularity. I know what Jonathan is thinking - he wants to protect stupid people from their own stupidity. We have all seen the example of the Malaysian widow squander a million dollars just like that but my point is simple: no, you cannot save stupid people from their own stupidity. This has nothing to do with your noble intentions, it has got to do with the nature of stupidity.
It's not a question of wrong or right, but rather what you can practically achieve.

In the case of this Malaysian widow, the bulk of her windfall was wasted in a bad investment - she had invested in her brother's transport business which turned out to be a complete failure. So you see, even in this case, it isn't that straight forward at all - her justification was that if the business turned out to be a success, she would become a business owner and would be able to reap the profits for years to come. That business could potentially generate a steady stream of income for her children for many years, if it was successful - her reasoning seemed to have made sense on the surface. Now it is evident that her brother had a poor business plan, that is why his business went bust - but where do you draw the line then? Do you propose that the Malaysian government (don't forget the widow is a Malaysian citizen) should have stopped her from investing in her brother's business? Or that her brother should have been prevented from even starting a business venture in the first place? When does protecting stupid from their own stupidity become an infringement on their freedom?

In the case of the Malaysian widow - there was no evil crook out to swindle her of her insurance money. Her brother was guilty of no more than sheer stupidity, there was no malice on his part. Despite his best intentions, his business plan failed and neither him or the widow made any money out of the failed transport business. These were two stupid people with no business acumen, making poor business decisions without a decent business plan and whilst it was a recipe for disaster, there were no evil villains involved here. Guess what? When you have two clueless people trying to start a business like that, you don't need an evil villain for things to go very, very wrong. Such is real life for you - so as I have mentioned in my previous post about the Chee Koh Pek, Singaporeans are creating a villain in the form of the foreign gold digger when really, such a villain does not exist. It is easier for Singaporeans to pretend there is an evil villain to be defeated, rather than to tackle the challenges of saving stupid people from their own stupidity.
Singaporeans like to create a villain to blame for their woes.

It is hard for Singaporeans to get their heads around a problem like "stupidity" - in fact, it is almost socially taboo to talk about stupidity or even to use the word stupid. I had offended one of my dear readers Winkingdoll last year when I chose to use the word 'stupid' in one of my posts and she got really very angry about it (despite the fact that I was not directing that word at her, but simply using it to describe some people I had encountered). For her, my use of the word 'stupid' it was so offensive it was on par with homophobia or racism, it was blatant discrimination against people of lower IQ. Her attitude is not unique, it does make it very hard for us to deal with the issue of helping (for want of a better word) 'stupid' people if we can't even mention the word 'stupid'.

Can we solve a problem like stupidity? No. Can we save stupid people from their own stupidity? You can try, but it won't be easy.Such it human nature - you can't eradicate stupidity. Should you treat everyone like a complete idiot, incapable of managing their own finances and base your CPF rules on the most stupid idiot in Singapore? Certainly not - that won't be fair to the vast majority of Singaporeans. Besides, even stupid people have feelings too and stupid people get to vote as well, imagine if the government starts vetoing the decisions stupid people want to make in their private lives to save them from their own stupidity, how would that make make them feel towards the government? Jonathan, don't take it personally when I say that what you have proposed (setting up a panel to judge each CPF withdrawal on a case by case basis) is impractical and simply not feasible The vast majority of Singaporeans are perfectly capable of making sound, rational decisions when it comes to their own money and neither welcome or need the intervention of the state when it comes to their decisions. Being stupid is a bit like being dead: you're not aware of it but everyone else around you is. Likewise, did you think that this Malaysian widow was aware of just how bad her decisions were? No, she clearly didn't otherwise she would have acted differently. It was only hindsight that revealed how terrible her mistakes were. 
Fact of life: stupid people exist. Mother nature created them.

Well what about the stupid people then? How about a dose of reality here: no, you can't help them. Not like that at least. Not through the CPF system. They will suffer from their own stupidity and you cannot expect the state to step in and function like their parents. It is just not feasible or practical on any level - mostly because it would make the government extremely unpopular. You wanna help poor people - great, there are plenty of charities that help the underprivileged and you can help contribute to those charities. Direct your help at those who are poor, but don't treat everyone as if they are idiots who are incapable of making rational decisions. 

Furthermore, you cannot impose your help on those who do not want your help. They will only protest, resent your interference and hate you for trying to intervene when they clearly do not want any external help. You can bring a horse to water but you cannot make it drink - likewise, in the case of the Malaysian widow who squandered her million, she did receive excellent financial advice from Changi Airport Group (CAG) financial adviser who told her exactly what she ought to do with the money she was give. She wasn't just given a million bucks without any financial advice, she was even able to recall exactly what she was advised when interviewed by the ST journalist. 
"The CAG financial adviser advised me to divide the money between myself and my four children. After allocating $200,000 to each of my four children, I was left with $150,000," she said. A CAG spokesman told The Sunday Times the CAG had arranged for a family counsellor for Madam Pusparani and had also engaged a financial services adviser to help her with the money she received, including setting up an annuity plan for her children. "I was told not to touch my children's money as it was meant for their future," she said, adding that the financial adviser also suggested she could use the remaining money to set up a small business in Malaysia.

Did she follow the good advice she was given? No, she squandered the money instead. This is a clear example of how you can't help someone who doesn't want to accept your help and there are many people like this Malaysian widow. What can you do about them? I don't blame the government. I don't even blame the stupid people for being stupid. This is just life - c'est la vie, some people will be born quite stupid and are incapable of making intelligent decisions. I simply accept that life isn't fair, society isn't going to be equal and I certainly do not expect the government to try to go out of their way to protect stupid people from their stupidity. That is a highly unreasonable demand to make on the government and I would never expect my government to solve problems like that - especially in a place like Singapore. Allow me to show you the view from my living room window on this sunny summer's day - quite a nice view eh? 
Yes you may be able to pick out some of London's famous landmarks like the Shard, Big Ben and the London Eye in the distance - it is a magnificent view of central London from the 15th floor. When I showed my mother this view (via Skype), she was shocked. "Aiyoh so dangerous!" And I was like, what the hell are you talking about, what is dangerous? Why your window no grille one? So high up you must have grille!" I explained to her that because I was on the 15th floor, only Spiderman could climb into my window if I had left it open - it was very safe. I had imagine window grilles to have been necessary perhaps in HDB flats where you have windows facing the corridor, but in my case, my block was not built that way and I didn't need window grilles.

"No lah, what if you fall out of the window? Can die one leh." My mother persisted. And I was like, come on, what are the chances of me falling out of my window? I have lived here for 10 years and have enough common sense not to even put myself in a position where I risked falling out of the window. I certainly have no desire to fall 15 floors to my death, that is enough motivation for me to behave in a sensible and responsible manner, so I don't need window grilles to protect me. My mother was not convinced though, "but better safe than sorry lah, what if got stupid people live in your block and they are careless, then they lean out and fall out and die then how?" Great. Is that how you Singaporeans think? Treat everyone like idiots just because idiots exists? Are you willing to be treated like an idiot just because idiots exists? This reminds me of that great "stupidity tax" speech by Edina Monsoon from the comedy Ab Fab.
Eddie: Yes, Yes!... Why, oh why, do we pay taxes, hmmm? I mean, just to have bloody parking restrictions- and BUGGERY-UGLY traffic wardens, and BOLLOCKY-pedestrian-BLOODY-crossings?... and those BASTARD railings outside shops windows, making it so difficult, so you can't even get in them! I mean, I know they're there to stop stupid people running into the street and killing themselves! But we're not all stupid! We don't all need nurse-maiding. I mean, why not just have a Stupidity Tax? Just tax the stupid people!
Patsy: [stands up] And let them DIE!
Eddie: Yes!

I clearly don't agree with the CPF minimum sum but I can clearly see why the government cannot use Jonathan Ng's suggestion of considering withdrawals on a case by case basis. Why? Because you can't deal with stupid people like that. Whilst I want to encourage Singaporeans to try to come up with alternatives to what the PAP is proposing, I want to point out that you're facing a huge challenge here and you cannot make ridiculous, unreasonable demands on your government. It almost seems ironic that it appears that I, of all people, am defending the PAP on the issue of CPF - but when people like Jonathan Ng come up with such ridiculous suggestions, that's the PAP's cue to say, "see lah? Alamak. How on earth is that ever going to work? Aiyoh. What a dumb idea. This is why the PAP knows best," 
Come on people, you wanna take on the PAP, you have gotta try harder than that. If you think you can come up with any better ideas, then please, that's what the comments section below is for. Thank you very much for reading. 


35 comments:

  1. The contrast between this relatively realistic analysis and your rather... naive? piece on the "myth" of the chee ko pek is quite amusing. This BBC article might provide some perspective from a not dissimilar country: http://m.bbc.com/news/magazine-27189951

    ReplyDelete
  2. The issue is not about stupidity. People can make perfectly reasonable calculated decisions and still have outcomes not to their advantage. How do you deal with such situations? Advocate personal responsibility and allow the person to starve? That seems... callous.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well you're right - let me give you an example. Some years back in 2008, I invested my own money to try to start a small business and it totally failed. I didn't make any money, I didn't break even, I didn't even recoup my initial investment - I made a loss and decided to call it quits by 2010. I sold off any remaining assets to cut my losses and called it quits (fortunately I was able to offset most of the initial investment against taxes). That is an example of a perfectly reasonable calculated decision that still went very wrong.

      I took personal responsibility for my mistake (ie. overestimating the demand for the service) and fortunately, I had other work going so I didn't starve as a result of that mistake. But what if I had sunk every penny to my name into that business venture and ended up penniless because it failed so spectacularly - then what? Who do I go to ask for money as a result of my mistakes? Do I even have the right to go around and ask for anyone to help me if I had lost my money through a series of bad decisions that I had made?

      If there's no one to blame but myself... is it callous to then expect me to suffer the consequences of my actions?

      Think about that one. Who's gonna write me a big check to compensate me for that business failure in 2008? Who do I turn to? I tried, I failed and guess what? I learnt from my mistakes, I suffered the consequences of my errors and I have moved on.

      Delete
    2. Good for you; you didn't sink everything in. But my point again is: had you done so and now were starving, would you not think it a bit callous if someone said "take personal responsibility"? I didn't think you voted Tory.

      Delete
    3. Oh I didn't - long story in a nutshell, I had spotted a product in Prague and I thought, what an interesting concept, it looks great (well it did in Prague) why isn't there anyone in London doing it? So I copied the idea with local British help and did a British version, assuming that there would be a demand for it, but nope, it bombed. But when it did and I lost my investment, I did take personal responsibility in my wrongful assumption that there would be a demand for it.

      I have always voted Lib Dems.

      Delete
    4. It's not callous. The government is not your father/mother. If you mess up, deal with it. Hopefully, you use your wits to get back on your feet. Hopefully, your family helps you out if they can and if they are willing (IF!). You can't expect the government to watch how you spend your pocket money. It's just ludicrous. The government is not family. It's PAP. Not PAPA.

      Delete
    5. I don't seem to be clear enough, even though I explicitly made my point. Let me try again.

      If you lost everything and had no hope of getting it back and someone told you too bad, take personal responsibility. They may be right. But would you in that situation not think that they are being callous? Or would you say, yes, you're right, I deserve this and accept this and thank you for rubbing in my face that I will stay forever beaten down.

      If the latter, you really should be voting Tory.

      Delete
    6. If you're trying to make the point that I should be kind(er) to people who have lost their money, then ask yourself this - talk is cheap, if a close friend of your lost his money in a bad business venture, would you be happy and willing to give him your own money or would you ask him to take responsibility for his own situation. What is the point of this 'kindness' then? Would any amount of 'sayang sayang' do any good?

      Ted Beneke (Breaking Bad) comes to mind....

      I actually did split my vote between Tory, Lib Dems and the Greens in my most recent local elections.

      Delete
    7. I remembered having this conversation with a colleague of mine about making poor decisions.

      There was this man and his family in Texas who received a job offer to work at a VFX company in Florida.He sold his house and packed his whole family into a car and it turned out this VFX company went bankrupted WHILE he was on his way to Florida. He was homeless and out of a job within a week.

      Now, yes it is possible for circumstances to be out of your control. But what IS in your control is thinking of what the worst case scenario and ensuring that you don't lose it all in one fell swoop. Like Limpeh and his failed investment. I would think that the difference between a stupid and smart person is whether they're prepared for a worst case scenario

      That said however, I work in the US. I'm not really a fan of the whole "You fail You can rot on your own" or "Winner takes all" mentality. Sure it's great if you're smart (Even though there's no guarantee, there are elements beyond intelligence that determines success) but if you're born in a slightly dis advantageous family you're pretty much fucked.

      Delete
    8. Well, in my case, let me talk about how things went wrong for me.

      1. I saw a product/service in Prague and thought, what a great concept and there's no one in London doing this.

      2. I returned to London and decided to create a London-version of it, to simply copy a great idea that had worked in Prague.

      3. I invested about £1000 of my own money into the business, it was money I could afford to lose.

      4. The business went bust because there was zero demand for this product/service in London despite it having proved to be popular in Prague.

      5. After 2 years, I sold off the remaining stock/assets to try to recoup some of my initial investment - I think I got about £250 or so for the stock.

      6. So all in all, I only lost £750 (S$1500) over this mistake - and given that this represents a tiny percentage of my personal wealth, it was money I could afford to lose (I spend a lot more than that when I go on holiday).

      7. Before I went into this venture, I made sure I didn't borrow a single penny. And I made sure that even if I didn't make a penny (worst case scenario - which was exactly what happened) - I would still be okay financially. It was money I could afford to lose, I didn't allow myself to invest any more money in the business before it broke even (and it never did).

      I made some bad decisions. I didn't do enough market research and I based my business plans on a lot of wrongful assumptions. But at the end of the day, do I expect anyone to feel sorry for me for having loss money? Hell no. I fucked up. I lost my money. I will never accuse anyone of being callous if they told me to bear responsibility for my mistakes.

      Delete
    9. I do wonder at your reading comprehension and capacity for self-absorption some times.

      I am not making the point that you should have sympathy for people who lose money. I am making the point that it is callous to tell those who lose everything -- and I mean everything, not some measly 750 quid -- that too bad, suck it up, it's your own fault. Especially when they have taken all reasonable means to prepare themselves for it.

      The population of people who have lost everything -- for example, those who thought they were very prudent buying houses just before the sub-prime bubble hit, lost their job, and then went underwater -- is much smaller than the population of people who lose some money. There is a difference. It is a huge difference. Conflating the two points to either a) stupidity; b) malice; or c) cognitive dissonance. Sadly, I can't help but believe it's c).

      And we haven't even started talking about the public policy aspects of this.

      Delete
    10. I should explain why my previous response was so intemperate.

      I have had to live on bread and water for weeks because I had to budget after buying textbooks. I have had personal debts of about 90% of my pre-tax salary. I know what life is like when you live on the upturned edge of the knife and pray that a) next month, there will be no screwups when they deposit money into your account and b) no emergencies happen; and c) tomorrow, you still have a job.

      And I'm a lucky one. I didn't fall off the edge. I know enough who did, through no fault of their own. And so when you put forth your OMG I lost 750 quid on a business venture but I took personal responsibility for it, no one should cry for me, oh yes, I agree. No one should.

      But when you see someone get cancer and have to navigate the US healthcare system and know that they will never, ever get out of the hole that the medical system has dug for them, then you have to have some massive kind of empathy deficit to say "too bad, take responsibility for your health." Because there are some things that no single person can take care of themselves.

      So yes, I am annoyed, because I see your position as fundamentally, "I got mine, Jack, why can't you get yourself together and take care of yourself." Because some times, Jack damn well can't. And that's where public policy comes in, and why public policy matters.

      Delete
    11. And that's why Walter White had to turn to cooking meth.

      Delete
    12. Do you derive your positions on torture from 24?

      Delete
    13. When I am down and out, of course I do not want people to rub it in my face. I wouldn't relish in other people's misery either. Having said that, from a government standpoint, we the people, should not hand over our money to the government simply because there are people out there who will make mistakes with their finances. That was my point. The government is not our parent. They should not control how we spend our money. Period.

      Delete
    14. Then, Di, why do you pay tax?

      Delete
  3. Hi LIFT,

    IMHO, I think that this essay cited rather "elitist" examples which are not necessary to support your case.

    E.g. The reality is that even supposedly intelligent people (e.g. high IQ folks) can make stupid decisions, so no need to pick on the "stupid people" (low IQ folks). The reality is that human nature is irrational at times and can make "stupid decisions".

    E.g. And as 回春 has pointed out, "People can make perfectly reasonable calculated decisions and still have outcomes not to their advantage." When using "their CPF funds to send a child overseas for university", even if Ah Boy is academically brilliant and needed the same amount of funds from his parents CPF for a highly-ranked university like Oxford or Cambridge, there is no guarantee that Ah Boy would complete his studies as planned and/or find a job that can pay back the loan. It takes more than just academic smarts to do well, especially when one is "suddenly living independently/alone overseas". You have cited examples in your blog about such cases before, e.g. the girl who went home because she cannot cope having to cook her own meals. E.g. I have a relative who had a scholarship that would pay his fees and living expenses at top-notch overseas universities of his choice (e.g. Oxford, Cambridge, Stanford, MIT category) all the way from undergraduate to PhD level, but he still returned to Singapore without completing his PhD. Unless the proposed "CPF withdrawal interview panel" comprises of incredibly talented psychics who can foretell each case's future, interviewing the parents applying to withdraw the CPF and/or interviewing the child before he/she heads overseas is unlikely to save everyone from CPF withdrawal losses. Who bears the fallout if the reality does not go as planned?

    IMHO, the conundrum is created when CPF keeps advertising that "CPF is your money" when it is managed otherwise -- i.e. (IMHO) the government behaves like a strict nanny/trustee overseeing each citizen's individual trust fund (i.e. CPF account). Now if only the PAP-led government would call a spade a spade and announce that "CPF is NOT your money" but "a trust fund managed by the government on behalf of each CPF account-holder".

    In conclusion, I agree with you that it would not be wise for CPF (nor is it wise politically for PAP) to put itself in the position of deciding who can withdraw their entire CPF savings and who cannot. That said, given their (IMHO) misleading advertising that "CPF is your money", they have painted themselves in a corner.

    Cheers, WD.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Hi LIFT,

    Great article as always! Just want to highlight the widow, I would not call the investment in to the transportation business stupid, it was viable but just didn't pan out maybe because of poor management, it was making money in the first 3 months so not that it was doomed from the beginning. I think the most stupid thing was this and I quote:

    n January last year, Madam Pusparani took out the rest of the money meant for her children.

    She had no choice, she said.

    "I never work, but I have to eat. I also need to take care of my parents. I was living with them and I had to pay for the monthly rental which was about RM1,000. My baby is still young and needs money for milk and pampers," said Madam Pusparani, agitatedly.

    "My expenses came up to RM5,000 to RM6,000. Where do I find the money?"

    That last $400,000 she withdrew lasted her five months.

    That quote... how the HELL DOES ONE SPEND $400,000 in 5 months!!! it is supposed to be for living expenses.. she has to spend an roughly $2700 a DAY to burn through $400,000 in 5 months.. that is the real stupidity of her...

    I'm going to sound very extremist... but I think natural selection needs to come back.. let the stupid people die out.. stop trying to protect them... Like milk cartons that requires the warning - contains milk just so stupid people don't inadvertently drink it and die of lactose intolerance.. I do agree with the stupidity tax speech...

    I think people need more personal accountability and stop being entitled and seeking to blame others...

    Ranting aside, I actually wanted to ask some questions about gymnastics and training, do you mind if I derail the by asking my questions in the comments section?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Ian, good point mate. $400k in 5 months, good grief. What was she doing?!

      As for gymnastics, why don't you leave the comments here instead: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/front-layout-front-layout.html

      Delete
  5. I still think that whilst stupid people and smart people make stupid mistakes, the government should not be allowed to control retirement funds. The government is not your parent. By advocating personal responsibility, we not "allowing" people to starve. People starve as a result of their actions/decisions. Sometimes shit just happens. Whatever the cause, it's not for the government to pre-empt every facet of our lives.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well Di, you and I are clearly on the same wavelength on this - but what is clear is that Singaporeans like this Jonathan Ng still want the government to play a paternal-role in deciding what Singaporean folks get to spend their CPF on,just like how a parent would say, "you can spend your pocket money on books but you cannot buy sweets with it etc..." Whereas someone like me would be like, "leave me alone, it's my money, i know what I am doing..."

      Delete
    2. Let's see. Taxes pay for roads, street lights, arts and cultural programs (hopefully), education, healthcare (to different degrees in different countries), policing, army, public transportation, sewage, recycling, parks and recreation, museums (perhaps), homeless programs, charity, civil servants' wages, prisons, the justice system, ...

      Delete
    3. Good lord, and you really can't see the connection?

      Delete
    4. Well, I clearly do not see connection between paying taxes for public services n having the govt control my personal retirement funds.

      Delete
    5. I'm sorry. You are willing to let a government use your money to take care of many things which you are not able to provide for yourself. But you are not willing to let a government use your money to take care of a portion of your retirement savings, which, by the way, are inextricably linked to health care. Am I correct in saying that this is your position?

      Delete
    6. Again, I am saying that my retirement finances is my personal responsiblity. It is not public responsibility like, say policing and street lights. As for health care, I don't think people on this blog are bitching about it per se. They are bitching about the extent to which PAP has been controlling CPF. The argument for it is based on the fact that there are idiots out there who cannot be trusted with their money. Also, shit may happen to even smart people. Most people have agreed that they do no want the govt to control their CPF$$$.

      Delete
    7. An interesting perspective for you from neighbours up north. http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/06/16/Retirement-Age-No-Compromise/

      Key point: 'Deputy Human Resource Minister Datuk Seri Ismail Abd Muttalib told the Dewan Rakyat sitting that the matter was important as a study revealed that the worker's debt status upon reaching retirement age was high. "This Act helps to increase the worker's total savings in the Employees' Provident Fund (EPF). Fourteen percent of retirees exhaust their savings within three years. Five percent within five years, while 70% exhaust their savings within 10 years," he said on Monday.'

      The issue is this; if 70% of workers do in fact exhaust their savings within 10 years, it is no longer their own personal responsibility. Because it becomes a public responsibility to deal with those who no longer have enough money to take care of themselves.

      Delete
  6. LIFT, OT abit did you read this news: http://news.asiaone.com/news/malaysia/warrant-arrest-issued-sex-blogger-alvin-tan

    Wonder what will happen to him now, will he head to the European country like Sweden since they don't have an extradition treaty with Malaysia?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi there, oh my. Him and I have spoken about this before and I can't revealed what we have said in what is a private conversation as opposed to an interview for my blog. But yes, I hope everything turns out okay for him. Thanks for letting me know, I had no idea this happened until you told me.

      Delete
  7. Hey LimPeh,

    Whatever they chose to invest in and whatever they chose to spend it on, it is their hard earned money. Did the people who squandered their money ever asked for their money back? (Well, they did ask for help, but they never blamed the government.) The Indian lady was too ashamed to ask for help again, did she blame anyone? You failed your business, but did you ever thought 'it is all the government's fault for not managing my money'?

    I'm sure there are other alternative rather than to continuously increase minimum sum and putting it out of reach from a common Singaporean. Giving people the option of collecting the full sum, but with conditions. Conditions such as not being allowed to seek government aid for x years.

    Yes, Singaporeans who do not know how to manage their money will suffer, but they signed the contract and they only have themselves to blame. The government will get flak for being 'unsympathetic', but isn't that what the current government is?

    On the plus side, the public opinion will be better than what the current situation is.

    Side note: The government do allow people to use their parents' CPF to study locally. However, the person will have to pay back the money with interest. It doesn't matter what 'useless' degree the person is taking at poly/uni, but why slap the person with interest while using their parents' money?

    Which leads me to the conclusion about CPF...

    1) CPF is trying to make the money collected to make more money.
    2) Tie people down and limit what they can invest in.
    3)To save money on welfare.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. With or without stupid people, there are still two big casinos in Spore to blow your money on. Why should the govt or anybody shoulder the blame just because someone blew their life savings?

      Personally I think the govt should stick to the original agreement and allow the people to withdraw their money at age 55. The govt should not make plans on what you must do with your money. If the govt wanted to have a health scheme, they should do it with their health budget. They can also sell a good insurance plan to the people, BUT not to force the people to join in with their life savings.

      Delete
  8. I actually would be quite in support of being able to use the CPF money to support overseas studies, but I'm not in favor of having a council determine that for you. Sure it's straight forward when you want to take bio, computer science or engineering. But what happens if you were like me and wanted to pursue an art degree? Not even a top notched one but one that the USCIS just determined that their graduates are no longer eligible for special graduates work visa.

    Now I'm not making nearly as much as a fresh grad in Google but I'm surviving in the US in a startup that has a pretty decent future ahead of them. I can pay my own bills and not take anything from my mother. It's not a great and bright future but if you were analyzing my choices then I would bet you would have regarded it as a poor investment, shit I was retained in Polytechnic for a year and my grades were utter crap. How could you be so sure Ah Boy may not make it?

    Of course I totally see what you mean, I studied at a private University there are so much rich Asian kids here(bar of entry is non existent) and have no freaking idea what they want and just squandering their parents' money away. I have seen people who are past 30 and just lost about what to do with their lives.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You're missing the point here, ref: Ah Boy. We're not talking about whether or not Ah Boy will make it or not. Heck, anyone can make it in life - I'm sure you can find me some example of someone in Singapore who didn't study beyond his PSLE and still became a rich towkay today etc. There are always exceptions to the rules, people who defy the odds and somehow make it rich despite not being well educated.

      The moral dilemma I presented was this: Ah Boy is a bueh tak chek case, he flunked his A levels and let's say his grades were EFFF - and only Bolton University would offer him a place. Do you tell Ah Boy's low-income poor parents that spending their life savings to send him to Bolton university is a good use of their life savings, knowing that this would leave them PENNILESS and poverty stricken if they spent their life savings on a degree from Bolton for Ah Boy?

      So stop your blah blah blah about me being elitist and looking down on Ah Boy just because he had shit grades - we're talking about a situation here where money is limited. If Ah Boy's parents were filthy rich, this wouldn't be an issue at all, but Ah Boy's parents are so very poor - would you allow them to spend their life savings on a crap degree from Bolton University for Ah Boy? Sounds like your parents are rich - you have no idea what kind of hard choices poor parents have to face when it comes to the kind of financial sacrifices they have to make just to pay for their children's degree - some parents spend so much on their children's education that they are left with NOTHING to retire on and they are literally starving and living in utter poverty in their elderly years as a result. How would you like to see Ah Boy's parents starving just for you to give Ah Boy a chance at a degree eh?

      Like I said, life's a bitch, we have to make hard choices.

      Delete
  9. I actually agree with that.

    The tuition of the polytechnics and universities in Singapore are hardly exorbitant to begin with. It's not like the US where you can really go bankrupt trying to pay off your student loans (which you can't actually, you can never escape your student loans even in bankruptcy). With the average graduates salary and the fact that you're probably staying with your parents and living rent free those payments are just not going to hurt you that badly.

    ReplyDelete