As evident from my post earlier today, I have been monitoring events in Ukraine closely as we are on the brink of a major war in Europe - this came quite unexpectedly, sure the political situation in Ukraine have always been rather volatile but an invasion by Russia? This came as a rude shock. Anyway, I had posted some comments about Ukraine on Facebook and this guy (let's call him Crete, since that's where I met him, on the Greek island of Crete) Crete started arguing with me about the situation in Ukraine. The contents of our argument is irrelevant, but it suffices to say that him and I have quite different views on the situation in Ukraine and the Russian invasion.
You know what I wanted to say to him (which I didn't - as that would probably end our friendship)? The 2013 university ranking of the university where he obtained his politics degree is 101 out of 130 universities in the UK. That is not even top 100 - good grief. Talk about a crap degree from a crap university. I wanted to shut him up by putting him down, by rubbing it in his face how he went to such a totally crap university and that his degree was worthless - that's why he couldn't do anything with it and had to turn his hand to something else unrelated to politics to make a living. Oh I could have gone all elitist on him and made him feel really small about his useless degree from his shitty little non-top 100 university. But no, I bit my tongue and decided that it was probably not the right thing to do, it would've been spiteful.
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| Not all universities are equal. |
Look, I am aware of which university he studied at - he mentioned it in passing once upon a time and I didn't comment on it. I let it pass, it wasn't important to our friendship - but when he tried to use it to 'win' an argument with me today, ooh boy, I was so prepared to put him down - was that very Singaporean of me if that was my first reaction? Anyway, I just didn't respond and I was prepared even to go as far as to let him have the last word because putting him down, making him feel stupid shouldn't make me feel any cleverer - it just makes me quite a mean person who takes pleasure in belittling others and an elitist who puts his pride before his friends. Sure I am pissed off with 'Crete' over this incident but we have been friends for 7 years and up till this morning, I did consider him one of my better friends (until he had the audacity to make that stupid comment about his pathetic, useless politics degree).
I suppose I am just venting my anger and frustration here - I am probably not going to put him down and let him get away with it, is it worth destroying a 7 year friendship just to have the satisfaction of putting him down like that? Probably not - I will simply stay off Facebook and calm down until tomorrow at least before saying anything. I know he went to a shitty university and I was a scholar at a top British university, surely that knowledge is enough - I don't need to rub it in his face. So kids, make sure you study very hard and go to a very good university as not all universities are equal - you don't want to end up in a shitty university at the wrong end of the league table.
As usual, please feel free to leave a comment below. Let me know what you think, thank you everyone.
Dude I like your blog, your refreshing views, but why are you always harping on university rankings? Rankings are based on many different factors, including international atmosphere, student teacher ratio, research quality, nobel prize winners among many other things. In that sense, that is why NUS and NTU rankings can be boosted merely by bringing in more foreigners by giving them free scholarship or giving famous scientists a place in their university. Some country's like japan and also Scandinavia countries have pretty shitty rankings but yet their economy and society is relative stable, and have quite high number of patents, research papers and noble prize winners in proportion to their population. There are really much more factors involved to correlate the university rankings to a person's capability. Even within top school there are faculties that are not as well known, such as doing fine arts in OxBridge. Your friend may indeed be much last capable than you, and yes he started this "I'm in politics so I know more in it", but instead you can just convince him on the issue itself, just like how you do it in your other blog articles.
ReplyDeleteHi John and thanks for your comment. I was ranting here - but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a university that is ranked 101st out of 130 universities in the UK doesn't attract the best brains. No student is going to get his A level results and think, "ooh I had straight As - should I apply to Oxbridge or should I apply to a university outside the top 100, at the very bottom of the league table? Tough choice there..." So perhaps it was me harping on about it to make the point (in a less than blatant way) that I am more intelligent than this guy 'Crete' (or that at least I had the A level grades to get me into a top British university whilst he had grades that only got him into a university at the bottom of the league tables). I was comparing 2 British universities, not a Swedish one vs a Japanese one etc.
DeleteAnd please, he's not in politics - he did a degree in politics at a crap university. His day job has nothing to do with politics - I will not name what his job is (as that would be way too cruel) but he's earning peanuts doing mundane work because his university degree is laughed out of any recruiter's office because it is such a joke. Such is the cruel reality for those who insist on getting a degree from a crap university - it is a waste of time and money if you insist on getting a degree not worth the paper it is printed on: you end up doing a job that you could do without a degree and you've wasted so much time and money getting that crap degree. He's so NOT in politics. In fact, bitching about politics with me on Facebook is as close to politics as he can get.
In fact, I didn't do a degree in politics - I studied French & Geography at UCL, yet my first job was in politics - I worked in PR in Westminster for 1 year before leaving it for finance because I wanted to make more money. Nobody gave a shit if I knew anything about politics, heck - they just cared that I had a good degree from a top university = this guy is of decent calibre. I could've rubbed all this in his face... but I didn't. I was like, oh you wanna go down this route, do you really wanna go down this route?
Then I walked away from the computer and made a cup of tea. I decided to rise above it.
But I just had to let off some steam on my blog, so thanks again John.
PS. I like watching comedies like Veep, Ugly Betty and The Thick Of It where the characters always come up with quite caustic, sarcastic, even downright cruel (but funny) remarks all the time - when I am placed in this situation, I find that my first instinct is to do what these characters from my favourite TV programmes do: say something really caustic and cruel to put down the other person (think about the number of times Ugly Betty was on the receiving end of such remarks). But I guess in real life there are consequences for saying such cruel things to people - you can destroy a friendship and that's why I am holding back and not putting him down; even if I decide that I can't really be asked to be his friend anymore, I will not put him down like that because I don't have an audience to laugh at just how funny my sarcastic remarks are. I would simply destroy a friendship over this, just to get a punchline in.
DeleteWell, if Crete made his degree from Oxbridge an issue, then how could one ignore that in a counter-argument? Crete said he is right coz he has a degree from Blah Blah University. Alex is saying that does not make him right. You use the point given by the other side, and you reduce it to rubbish. It's saying, I went to designer school at Blah Blah Community College, and I am telling you that Ralph Lauren clothes sucks. Perhaps I may not like RL clothing line, but it should not be based on my designer "education" at Blah Blah Community College. Community College! YIKES!
DeletePrecisely, exactly. Thank you Di.
DeleteI respect Crete's right to have an opinion on Ukrainian politics - but to base it on his degree from Blah Blah Community College (ranked 101 out of 130 universities in the UK) .... where do I even begin? I could've told him exactly what I thought - but that might end our tenuous friendship. I thought, is it worth losing a friend over this? Probably not. I shall rise above it.
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ReplyDeleteHi Damien and thanks for your question.
DeleteI will do a longer, proper blog post for you - but I must warn you that I don't have any magic solutions for you. You are 100% correct in that countries like the UK, US, Oz, Canada, EU countries etc do raise the bar pretty high for foreign talents and yes Singapore is the only one where the door is wide open for any one to come and find work.
I would like to make some useful, practical suggestions for you - but please tell me first, what your degree is in and what other skills you possess so as I may point you in the right direction.
Hey Alex, long time... I see what you are saying on rankings, and while having a degree from a well ranked university does open doors, it's not an end all. I've had Oxbridge graduates at work and some who don't have degrees and slogged their butts off, reads widely and can hold their own. Guess who got the promotions.
ReplyDeleteBy coming onto your blog to rant about your friend, you are still putting him down publicly and potentially affecting the number of years of friendship - provided he doesn't know the existence of your blog. If you want to walk away from an argument, just do so. I find the punching bag at the gym an excellent way to vent.
On the topic of Ukraine, very interesting turn of events there. This threatens a major war right at our backyard with several superpowers involved. Will the US and UK, given their involvement in numerous areas of conflict and economic difficulties, want to get involved against a superpower? Will Russia involve their diplomatic allies to get legitimacy over their action? Will China seize the opportunity of a conflict to exert themselves? The mind boggles! I'll say, watch this space..
Cheers
Hi Colin. How are you?
DeleteI can see what you say about the fallacy of this over-reliance on rankings (I refer you to John's point above about Scandinavian and Japanese universities). And yes, I've actually met a lovely Oxford History graduate who struggled in the corporate world because he was a complete misfit (another story for another day) and would've been happier had he stayed in the world of academia. Sure, we're on the same page here. I've even wrote a piece about the uselessness of my degree: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/is-degree-that-important-anyway.html
I have spoken very openly about this friend before on my blog, he's the subject of this post: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/why-choose-path-of-least-resistance.html and I know he doesn't read my blog, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen this means to let off some steam. I blog about people in my life - no one is spared, not even my parents. I should give all my friends a warning.
As for Ukraine, you've asked so many questions which nobody can answer as we don't have a crystal ball - we can make intelligent guesses as to what may happen as we watch this space nervously. How would you feel if 'Crete' came along and told you that he knows EXACTLY what is going to happen and he has all the answers because (drum roll please) he has a degree in politics from the university ranked 101st in the UK (out of 130)., I am trying hard to decide whether to be sarcastic or condescending - perhaps both, in response to his useless little degree that's not worth the paper it is printed on.
Ultimately it boils down to whether you believe an undergraduate degree is worth anything more than a signalling mechanism.
ReplyDeleteYour friend does - that's why he's appealing to his degree granting him expertise. I have deep doubts about that, even if he had come from Oxbridge. The world is very different from the banks of the Thames compared to the banks of the Cam.
I don't know about you. You note that this guy's work does not qualify him to discuss the topic, but follow up by saying that this is all you can expect with that degree. That implies that you think the degree is the only signaling mechanism that counts.
Having worked in the industry, you should know better. A Barrow Boy could and still can be successful.
Sure, I agree with the 'signalling mechanism' argument - but not all degrees are the same. If you want to accuse me of being elitist, so be it - but I cannot take a degree from the wrong end of the league table seriously, it is not worth the paper it is printed on. If I had a problem with my friend having been educated at a crap university, we wouldn't have been friends for 7 years. It was not an issue - until he tries to use that degree in a "I'm right you're wrong" scenario like that. Mind you, if he had been an Oxford graduate who tried to use the same argument, that would not have gone down well with me either. Like John said above (see his comment), the right thing to do would have been to argue your stance and lay out your points logically and convincingly, rather than flash your degree.
DeleteI make a simple point about the usefulness of a degree (as a signalling mechanism) - you want a career in politics in the UK, you want to get paid work in Westminster - you need to prove your worth by getting a good degree to signal to the recruiters that you're of high calibre. Go to a university at the wrong end of the league table and a party may take you on as an unpaid volunteer to begin with but you're going to rely on other factors (perhaps your local connections with the grassroots, unions etc) to wiggle your way into politics and your useless degree is not going to help you. So yes, there are people particularly in the Labour party who have had very humble backgrounds: Alan Johnson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Johnson is your classic example - he left school at 15, stacked shelves at a supermarket, worked as a postman then worked his way through the unions to become involved in politics - never mind a degree, he didn't even sit for his O levels. Yet he has managed to carve a political career for himself - but given that he is going to be 64 this year, that all happened in another era and I'd like to see someone else try to do what he did in the modern era. Probably a lot more unlikely methinks.
Yes, I agree with your stance and it seems well reported that the ladders are being drawn up.
DeleteJust do not equate the degree with the person.
I know, I suppose I could say "he started it - he was the one who dragged up his degree in the first place when we were just talking about politics in Ukraine, I didn't mention my degree or scholarships at all! I was using facts to support my stance, not my degree or university." It just boggles the mind that he would use his degree to try to justify his stance, he was totally oblivious to the fact that I would look down on a university at the bottom of the league table. Duh. I'm from Singapore, hello?
DeleteOh, and for information, you know that a significant minority of Oxbridge folks look upon your UCL degree no differently than you do on your friends?
ReplyDeleteFor avoidance of doubt, I didn't go to Oxbridge.
Sure of course - but to cut a v long story short, UCL offered me a scholarship and it was not like I had 10 universities and institutions offering me generous scholarships at that point. I could go on about how UCL is ranked higher than Oxbridge in some faculties when it comes to the individual rankings of subjects - but I know that you can't reason with old school snobbery and such were the choices I had to make then. It was two-fold: I was seduced by the scholarship (it was very flattering to be offered a scholarship) and I thought that the financial burden on my parents would make things a bit easier for them if they didn't have to pay for all of my university education. They were just primary school teachers (now retired) from AMK you know, it's not like we had buckets of money to pay for my education, we were humble folks from from AMK.
DeleteYou're missing my point.
DeleteI'm sure you will agree that the hypothetical Oxonian doesn't care what your circumstances were, just the outcome. And that they would be an asshat for looking down on you.
Extend the analogy.
Actually - you have clarified above that you aren't looking down on your friend for having the degree but for trying to flash it as a credential. So I've gone too far in asking you to extend the analogy because that is inaccurate.
DeleteNo, I do get your point: ie. if I got into an argument about Ukrainian politics with an Oxonian who then claims, "I went to Oxford, you went to UCL, hence you're wrong, I'm right, ergo." That would've pissed me off as much, of course, because the merits of the case should be laid out in such an argument (since no one really knows what the hell is going to happen in Crimea over the next few days) - and that we should not default to rankings to 'settle the argument'. I get your point. But similarly, 'Crete' was going down the lines of 'I studied politics, you did not - hence I'm right you're wrong' (the subjects I studied at university include geography, financial management, French, Spanish and Welsh).
DeleteThe other factor (not mentioned here) is that I know he's currently in Peru and he doesn't speak Spanish - and that he is unable to access all the latest news in English. The media in Peru simply does not cater for non-Spanish speakers at all and he's relying on a rather slow internet connection (on his phone may I add) to access the internet and it comes with the territory when you're in South & Central America (I may be headed to Cuba soon and have been doing my research). So it is really kinda hard for him to follow the political situation in Ukraine without either a reliable, fast internet connection (and a laptop) or a good command of the Spanish language - so imagine me trying to discuss the situation in Ukraine with someone who thinks he is right because he has that degree in politics but hasn't been able to follow the situation in Ukraine and doesn't even know what has actually happened in the last 48 hours.
The fact is, he's having a pretty miserable lonely time in Peru because of the language barrier - that's why he is trying to talk to his English-speaking mates back in England instead of hanging out with his (non-existent) amigos in Peru.
That's a shame. Fair enough, there are other factors la. Sounds like the poor guy is in over his head in many ways.
DeleteAnd. Tried very hard, but cannot stop being a pendant.
It's either:
"I went to Oxford, you went to UCL, ergo I'm right and you're wrong" or
"I went to Oxford, you went to UCL, hence I'm right and you're wrong, quod erat demonstrandum."
Source - first year Latin at college.
And yes, am being a pendant, not pedantic; because balls depend.
Couldn't resist, my bad.
As for other factors, don't get me started. Aiyoh.
DeletePS. Why Latin? Wouldn't French or Spanish be a lot more useful in the real world?
Because I could. And because I spoke French already.
DeleteOh well, ah bon, I hope you have found a use for your Latin. After I studied French, I moved on to Spanish and Italian but it never occurred to me to take on Latin.
DeleteI got precisely the use out of my Latin that I envisaged. It was a subject taken for fun and interest that would boost my academic score.
DeleteHe probably just got carried away by the debate. I am guilty of that too sometimes. If you had really said that to his face he would really be pissed off, but I think he meant no harm with his comments, he probably just got too engaged in the debate
ReplyDeleteYah lah. I think so lah.
DeleteHe's your friend, give him a break. By flashing his degree he's already lost the debate...
DeleteYes, I know - you are right. Thanks.
Delete"I'm getting published by the Encyclopedia of Public Administration and Public Policy before I graduate with my Bachelor's degree in International Relations!" is my very effective warcry that shuts people up.
ReplyDeleteGuilty as charged.