Friday, 31 January 2014

A follow up on parenting and examples

Hi again. My last post on parenting actually generated quite a lot of debate, so I thought I'd do a follow up. My reader Muchopunk talked about the importance of parents setting a good example for their children and I had a huge problem with that I'm afraid on a matter of principle. Maybe it's just me playing the devil's advocate, but I just don't see the point about parents being a good example for their children. I believe that children who want to succeed will succeed regardless of the kind of people their parents are.

Maybe it's me just looking at the issue from my own experience - I couldn't have grown up to be any more different from my parents. From a young age, I had absolutely no intention of using my parents as role models because I suppose I could see the flaws in their characters. I recognized that they were humans, they had problems, they made mistakes and putting them on a pedestal, expecting them to be good role models would only be setting myself up for disappointment. Can I ask for a dose of reality please in this debate please?
Do children follow their parents' example?

Take something as simple as my dad's inability to speak English - he can't speak English, won't speak English and refuses to try. The only time when he would have to resort to speaking a little English is when he is confronted with say an Indian or Filipino person and he would then come up with the basics - otherwise it is either Mandarin or Malay which he would use. Did I need my dad to be able to speak English fluently before I was prepared to study it at school? No, whether my dad could speak English or was willing to speak it had no bearing whatsoever on my desire or ability to learn English at school. The only factor I suppose was that he wasn't able to help me with my English homework - but it didn't matter: the fact is, I didn't need him to be my role model. I just got on with learning English at school.

The fact is my dad never stopped me from learning English as a child, he never stopped me from reading English books, from listening to the BBC world service, from watching American movies - he allowed me to make my choices, get on with my education and trust me to do so as an adult. He didn't insist that I should follow his example, he couldn't have been more reasonable about it. I couldn't ask for more - I didn't need him to show me by example. In turn, I respected the fact that he hated the English language, simply couldn't figure it out and it was fine by me. Once again, I stress: I didn't need him to lead by example. His refusal to speak English didn't have any negative impact on my ability to master the English language - it didn't matter, really.
I remember this day from when I was in primary two or three, my dad came to pick me up after school and a bunch of teachers and parents were there. They were all conversing in English and my dad refused to speak English with any of them, choosing from speak only in Mandarin. I heard one of my classmates say, "eh why that uncle speak Chinese only one? Come from China one izzit? Donno how to speak English or what?" I didn't know what to say, I didn't want to kick up a fuss - so I kept quiet and pretended I didn't hear her. Sure there were times when I felt uneasy about my dad's inability to speak English in a country where English is the official language of education and business - not being able to speak English was undoubtedly a huge disadvantage for my dad in Singapore and he was aware of it.

The number of time he has to pass an official looking letter to my sister or myself to translate for him - my sister used to get that job but by the time I was in like primary four, I would ask her to let me try to do so and my dad encouraged it, as a means to demonstrate to me the practicalities of being bilingual in English and Mandarin. I did remember thinking, geez this letter isn't exactly complex but you can't even understand it without someone reading it to you? How do you get through your daily routine in Singapore without English? But such was my dad for you - he's in his late 70s now and he got by all these years without English in Singapore.
My dad simply had a mental block when it came to English.

I don't believe that children are limited by their parents' example - heck, if that was the case, I wouldn't be able to speak English, but I defy the logic by speaking English as a first language and French as my second language. Here's why I have such a problem with this concept of being a good role model or setting an example for your children: that's a very passive form of parenting. There's a huge commitment involved in actually instructing your child, nurturing your child, being actively involved in your child's upbringing: it is simply not enough to say, "mummy's a very successful person, just do what I do." That's not parenting, even if the mother is indeed successful in her life, what kind of mother if she if she thinks that it is simply enough to lead by example?

My opinion on this issue is very much shaped by my experience in sports: I have been involved in gymnastics for over 30 years at the very highest level - I competed for Singapore and am a qualified gymnastics coach as well. There is a huge difference between properly instructing a student to learn a skill and simply (for want of a better word) 'showing off'. Gymnastics is a great spectator sport - I love watching gymnastics and have been to major events like the World Championships and the 2012 Olympics to watch the best in the world compete. Whilst I am greatly entertained at such events, I am merely a spectator at these events these days, the experience of being there doesn't make me a better gymnast per se. Just watch this clip below - that's me showing off to you. Would you be able to do the same trick after watching me do it? No, it doesn't work like that. Enjoy the clip.
No, I believe that parenting should be hands on, it should involve establishing a two-way relationship with the child where the parent takes a keen interest in the child and the child (hopefully) reciprocates in that relationship. That's where a lot of parents fail - they provide for the child materially, but by the time a child turns into an adult, they realize they've raised a stranger they barely get along with. That's really what happened in my case.

I should have seen the writing on the wall. Did I ever mention that my sister was once national champion in chess for her age group? She has even represented Singapore internationally in chess and yes she is one of those super smart people - it's true, people who are good in chess are usually super brilliant academically. Did my mother take any interest in her chess? Could my mother for example, name the pieces on the chess board? No. My mother couldn't understand just how great my sister's achievements were in chess - which is ironic as most parents would be thrilled to have a child who is that brilliant, but for some reason, my mother totally failed to recognize just how brilliant my sister is, probably because it was in the somewhat unusual field of chess.
Thus when gymnastics became a big part of my life and like my sister, I became a national champion and started representing the country at international competitions - my mother took zero interest in my activities, never showed up at any of the competitions and in the same way she couldn't name the chess pieces, she wouldn't be able to name any of the gymnastics apparatuses. She just didn't show any interest in my sister's chess, she couldn't be less interested in my gymnastics. I suppose the main reason why was because she could neither understand chess nor gymnastics - thus it was not interesting for her despite the fact that it meant so much to us. That kinda hurts writing that now, but hindsight is 2020 - I suppose my sister has the kind of character where she just shrugs and says 'never mind, it's okay, it doesn't matter, it is not that important, let's move on and be happy."

You know what the irony is? I wonder what kind of mother can raise not one, but two national champions only to be oblivious to what she has achieved. My sister reached the peak in her chess career in the 1980s and my gymnastics was at its finest in the 1990s (so there was ten year gap).  I don't even think she realizes the magnitude of such an achievement within one family simply because she hasn't paused for a moment and thought about what we have achieved.  I think any other Singaporean parent would be over the moon if s/he managed to raise one national champion, but to have two children who turn out to be national champions? Perhaps someone should congratulate her (albeit years later) and just say, "hey, well done, your kids turned out to be brilliant."
Did my mother realize she raised two national champions?

Do I blame her? No I don't - many women of her generation simply become mothers because that was what was expected of them: you grow up, you get married, you have children. Nobody questioned whether these women of her generation had the right parenting skills before they started having children. Here's my mother's biggest mistake when it came to parenting: she didn't understand what success meant. As a blogger, I have helped many young people in Singapore try to adapt their skills to the working world and I have looked at some CVs and just tutted, nothing special, nothing outstanding, nothing impressive. And that is when I have to persuade these young people to try to get some interesting and useful experiences to spice up their otherwise very bland CVs. If only they excelled in something like chess or any kind of sports, or just did anything special or different that made them stand out.

My mother didn't grasp that concept at all I'm afraid - she thought that my sister's chess and my gymnastics were but unnecessary distractions from our studies and not worthy of her attention. An important part of good parenting involves preparing your child for the world s/he is going to be a part of and my mother wasn't good at that at all. She failed twice to spot the fact that she had two children who were obviously gifted in our respective fields and nearly stopped us from pursuing our talents.Fortunately, she always didn't get her way. I didn't need my mother to lead by example - we just needed her to be supportive in our quest for excellence, we needed her to be encouraging as we became national champions. Like I said, my sister and I became national champions in spite of my mother's disapproval, rather than because of her support. Sorry if I am being so blunt about this.
What do you do with a gifted child?

What could my mother have done differently then? I think she could have been a lot more emotionally supportive about our pursuits - that would have meant so much more than any kind of example she could have given us. She could have at least recognized how much chess and gymnastics meant to my sister and I and tried looking at things from our point of view for a moment. She could have taken more of an interest. If I may be ever so blunt, if I only limited myself to the examples that my parents have set for me, I wouldn't have done most of the things I have achieved in my 37 years. So you see, that's all I needed - emotional support, rather than an example to follow and even when I didn't get that emotional support I yearned for, like my sister, I just got on with life anyway.

So rather than demanding that parents must set a good example for their children, I say, fuck that. You're totally barking up the wrong tree, that's the school of 'passive parenting' - I didn't need my parents to lead by example. I just needed my parents to take a bit more interest in what I did. That's why I became estranged from my parents for so many years because we became strangers. I then had to (eventually) default to my sister's stance of  "forget it, let's just move on, you can't change the past." I told you she's the smart one in the family and I'm the dumb sports jock.
Let's get on with life and choose to be happy.

So there you go, that's my take on the issue and a rather personal story of frustration. This is why I got so angry at the suggestion that parents should set a good example for their children - no, they shouldn't have to. They are humans, they are flawed, they make mistakes but they can still try their best to nurture their children and build a meaningful relationship with their children despite the flaws in their characters. Let's not put our parents on pedestals and expect them to be perfect - let's instead judge them by what they actually do for their children. That should be what matters the most - and let's be forgiving when parents do make a mistake in their lives for they are human after all, do not crucify them for not setting the perfect example for their children.

Like seriously, someone should tell my mother she is the mother of two national champions - I really don't think she realizes what a big deal it ought to be. Maybe she could look back upon it and it might just make her happy, wouldn't it be nice if she could feel some pride about it. As usual, let me know what you think about this issue, thank you.

29 comments:

  1. Your mother did not "nurture" national champions. She merely gave birth to (and clothed, fed blah blah)

    That's a long way from "nurturing".

    Our parents are somewhat like that too in their own way.

    -S

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    1. Thanks for your comment. Let's talk about my sister's extraordinary talents with chess - one only wonders just how far she could have gone with chess if my parents had encouraged her to develop her talents with chess. I remember as a young boy, she sat me down and taught me how to play chess - I think she wondered if I might have some talent like her for chess, but clearly I didn't. I remember her demolishing me in a few moves, the games never lasted very long and my brain wasn't gifted in that department like hers. I got my revenge on the tennis court, my sister wasn't as talented as I was when it came to sports and we used to play tennis together and I would always win all the time.

      There were areas where our talents converged, I gave her a crash course in Spanish before she went to Spain and she actually retained a very high percentage of the Spanish I threw at her in that crash course (whereas most people would struggle to remember more than the basics in a crash course). So I imagine she would be great with languages (but she never pursued it the way I did). Needless to say, she is super smart, like really super intelligent.

      I guess the greatest shame was my mother being totally oblivious to our talents and what it meant - she referred to chess and gymnastics as a total waste of time, a distraction from our studies when really, it was what made us stand out from the crowd and rise above the competition. It gave us the opportunity to do things that most of our peers could never do - such as represent our country at events and meeting people from all over the world. I remember my sister telling me about the chess players from China she met (this was back in the 1980s) and how they all wore skirts to the chess games and asked my sister why she wore jeans rather than 裙子.

      If anything, my mother tried to make us ordinary - just like everyone else - rather than allowing us to be extraordinary by pursuing our talents which made us special. It was an honest mistake on her part - she just had no clue whatsoever what we needed for the big bad working world out there.

      It was just completely random that my sister and I were born with the gifts/talents that we had - my mother had no talents in anything similar (chess, sports, languages, creative arts etc) and perhaps that was why she was unable to 'nurture'' us - you need specialists to deal with such talents.

      Perhaps I am dwelling too much on my own family - but this is why I totally reject the concept of parents setting an example for their children, if you were to insist on that, then my parents would have totally failed because they were neither chess grandmasters nor champion gymnasts - but was that necessary for my sister and I to become national champions? No, it wasn't necessary - and there you go. Stop putting parents on pedestals as such high expectations are unfair.

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    2. > Your mother did not "nurture" national champions. She merely gave birth to (and clothed, fed blah blah)

      I second Neurotic Ramblings on that. After all, it is not like your mother encouraged you or took an active interest in your pursuits. Which is why I think it does not make sense for "Perhaps someone should congratulate her (albeit years later) and just say, "hey, well done, your kids turned out to be brilliant."" I would conclude differently if she had taken an active interest in your pursuits -- e.g. by sourcing for excellent coaches, selecting/paying for the equipment and/or lessons, rooting for you at competitions, etc.

      While parental pride in one's children's growth and development is an understandable human emotion, I think it is bullshit when parents parade their children's achievements to overtly (or covertly) feel superior in their "parenting skills" simply because their children did better than their friends'/relatives' children.

      E.g. I recall that when I received my Primary 1 results, I saw how hurt my cousins were because my mother rubbed it in on how well my sister and I did at school compared to them. At age 7, I already logically deduced that our performance gap had very little to do with "good parenting skills" because I observed that some of my cousins actually had better support/guidance from their parents and they worked hard for their academic achievements (telling them to "try harder" is pointless) whereas honestly I was pretty much blur-blur about academic studies at that age and did not study at all! My conclusion then was that my mother's behaviour has more to do with her social relationships than actual pride in her children's relative academic success because I knew by then that my mother disliked her in-laws so much that she would take any opportunity to score that "emotional one-upmanship".

      Sad to say, based on my observation, such "emotional one-upmanship" behaviour is not uncommon amongst Singaporean parents. It is also trending in North America -- one example being the promotion of "Tiger Moms". So on the bright side for LIFT, while his mother did not take any interest in his sports pursuits, neither did she live vicariously through the glory of his sports achievement either -- "fair's fair" in a sense.

      p.s. Another example of the complexity of parent/human behaviour. My mother would praise my sister and run me down when the above-mentioned relatives are not around, even for the same above-mentioned Primary 1 results. I understood it then (and even now) that she did it to irritate my dad simply because I'm my dad's favourite and my sister is my mom's "star performer". It is not unlike how sports-fans gain pride when "their" team trounced their opponents, even though in reality they have very little direct contribution to the teams' performance.

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    3. Hi WD, thanks for your comment. I think I was taken care of quite well by the Singapore Amateur Gymnastics Association back in the day, for example, I never had to pay for training from the time I was about 12.that was quite a luxury really when I think about how much kids today pay for any kind of sports training. I was in good hands, good coaches who pushed me - sure they could have done more but I suppose they were limited by their funds and they did what they could to help me (eg. by refusing to accept any kind of payment I was offering, as long as I trained and competed).

      As for parents who showed off and boasted, mine were quite the opposite. I think they really disapproved of that kind of arrogance - they viewed humility as a far more important value to have, because if you get arrogant, you get complacent and when you are complacent, you will make mistakes, trip up and fail. That's their reasoning - hence they would have disapproved of your mother's approach to parenting.

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  3. Hi LIFT, being of the older generation, I totally understand where your parents were coming from. Let me explain their mentality (but, emphatically, NOBODY should endorse such an attitude).

    Your talents enabled you to have new experiences, building character and confidence; but, in and of themselves, they were not skills that you would've been able to base your livelihood on. For example, plenty of kids who were great at things like art & music were forbidden to pursue them in those days; parents feared that the kids would not find good jobs if they became artists or musicians.

    The thing is, to the older generation, "character and confidence" were too intangible, & thus simply NOT important (though we all know today, they're actually really REALLY crucial)!

    IF your sister and you hadn't become national champions -if chess and gymnastics were just hobbies & nothing more, your mother might possibly have banned you from indulging in them too much, the way parents nowadays ban their kids from using computers or cellphones for too long.

    So, the fact that she allowed you to continue practising (even if she didnt actively encourage it, or kept saying you should study instead) shows that she DID support you, she just didnt show it explicitly.

    It sounds ugly to say this, but parents of that generation were only proud of their children IF the children's achievements were measurable (eg. exam results), and could be objectively proven to be superior to those of other people's children. By that token, having 2 national champions made your parents undeniably the envy of other parents, and they MUST have been proud of you at least for that.

    You have mentioned before, both your sisters are brilliant. In today's post, you only mention one. Lets give your parents the benefit of the doubt: maybe they did not play up the achievements of the 2 national champs in the family, because they did not want the third kid to feel left out, & that shows they were not so bad.

    Whatever the case, who can argue with the fact that your parents love you. But the older generation just doesn't know how to express it. Blame it on their being Asian, those ridiculous Confucian values etc. This is why Singapore is right to embrace globalisation and westernisation!

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    1. Thanks for your long and thoughtful comment. Allow me to respond to your points:

      1. I think it's wrong to say that gymnastics would not have been a skill for me to base my livelihood on - I am actually a fully qualified coach and can work full time as a coach if I wanted, but I don't want to as that would mean committing to a full time teaching schedule and not being able to run away to go do a stint of Belgian TV (which I did last year) or German TV (which I hope to get to do this year). In any case, everyone has such good results on paper - I needed that extra sparkle on my CV from sports to allow me to stand out from the crowd, to show prospective employers that I have something extra to offer. Believe you me, this comes up every time I have a job interview and whilst I am often not hired for my gymnastics skills per se, it gets my foot in the door. So don't dismiss it as an irrelevant hobby, it does open doors for me (well in the West at least).

      2. Again, I'm not having a great time at work - long story, but I had a tough week, worked on something my boss asked me to do and then he changed his mind and said he didn't need it, I challenged him and said, but this was what you told me to do - only to be told off for questioning him for changing his mind. And I just thought, great, thanks for reminding me what makes me happy in life - I then went to gymnastics training and I was very happy. I think it's important to have something in life that does make you that happy, an activity you're good at and you enjoy. For me it's gymnastics - I can just imagine someone else having an equally shit time at work going to get drunk on a Friday evening because that's how they forget their sorrows. So leaving 'character & confidence' aside for a moment, how about joy and happiness? First you have fun, then you build character and confidence through an activity that you enjoy and are good at.

      3. I think my mother was paranoid about us dating and having sex - so when my mother saw the other kids who were in the chess club, she thought aha geeks heaven, my daughter will be safe here. As for gymnastics, I think she was just relieved that there was someone keeping an eye on me, I always paid attention and listened to the (mostly from China) coaches and I respected them, I never talked back and she thought well if I won't listen to her, at least I listened to the coaches from China and I needed some figure of authority in my life. So whilst she disapproved of my involvement in the sport, I think she was secretly jealous of the way the coaches commanded a kind of respect from me which she never got from me.

      4. Who knows where chess may have taken my sister if she had spent more time on it, given that she was clearly super talented. As for my gymnastics, she couldn't stop me even if she wanted to - I would have ran away from home; like that's how bad our relationship was.

      5. Maybe other parents did envy my parents - but they certainly never mentioned anything about being proud of having 2 national champions in the family, not to me at least.

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    2. 6. You're right - both my sisters are academically brilliant but amongst us 3 siblings, only 2 became national champions. Sister 2 had a range of hobbies, none of which she pursued to any kind of standard high enough to be taken seriously. But please, she was in tough company, imagine having 2 siblings who are both gifted in their respective fields and you being the middle sibling who is not a national champion, like, "so, what's your special talent? Can you play chess? Can you do a back somersault?" She grew up, went to university and then got a good job - by any standards she has achieved a lot, she just wasn't a national champion in anything like 99.99% of the population in Singapore.

      Having said that, I am not sure if my parents deliberately held back any kind of praise or support for me out of consideration for the middle sibling (ie. the non-national champion one) - it was rather for all the other reasons that you have already described previously about their attitudes.

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    3. I third the motion that your mum got really lucky with having 2 brilliant children without contributing much to nurturing your interest.

      I'm not trying to make this all about me but herein lies I think the reason why I kinda respect and lookup to my parents whereas you don't.

      My mum I remember when I was young literally had to fight social services and MOE going through an entire phone book just to get me into kindergarten. My dad is still ferrying the 26 year old me wherever I want to go. It's not much and becoming un-disabled is just about the furthest thing from an interest as you can get but they bothered enough to figure out for me while I was young. So maybe this is why I'm more forgiving of them than say my aunt/uncle.

      Did I ever tell you I also have a cousin that has the exact same condition as me? This CNY, both their parents went on holiday without bringing any of their kids and if they do, it's without my disabled cousin. She stays back alone with the maid in Singapore.
      Also, for the very few times that we meet, the maid is the only person that has any interaction with her. The parents are just sitting there looking like anytime they want to swallow themselves into their sighs/indifference towards her.
      My cousin by any stretch of the imagination is smarter tha me but as of now, she has the reading capabilities of a primary 3 kid having spent her whole life in special school. Sure, some of you might ask me not to judge again but every new year, I see her really weird behavioural where she literally has to demand for attention all the time...makes me feel really lucky that I will never have to grow up in that household. Moreover, I wouldn't want to know how she feels whenever she sees me at family gatherings knowing that I will forever be what people compares her to...just makes me want to curl into myself and/or curse at her parents that fine day I can muster up the courage to do so. Sigh.

      Twenty tree

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    4. Thanks for your story. I just wanted to point out that I have 2 siblings, there are 3 children in my family. It's just that the middle child never became a national champion - nonetheless, she was academically brilliant by any standards.

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  4. There were probably a number of people who inspired you in your life and gave you an opportunity to develop it. My parents almost ruined my life. Their divorce almost ruined my life. The worst fact is that it took them 4 years to complete the divorce all because apparently the sg gov wants the divorce to take as long as possible for the couples to "reconsider" or they will "regret". They would scream and propagate me daily about how evil my father or my mother is, quarrel every single day and made me to run with documents (because them and their lawyers are constantly trying to sabotage each other). I look back and realised how much damage was done to me and it could have been all avoid if I gave an SBC (simply bochap) attitude towards it by simply refusing to come home unless they stop fighting and getting me to meet their lawyers....instead of thinking that it is all my fault and I should see those lawyers. I guess the best thing is that the state never made me attend court hearings or any BS, unlike what I see in the TV drama "The pupil" where the lawyers grilled the poor kids. So no doubt, as a parent whether they are a good or bad example, it is going to have an impact on their children's life, negatively or positively.

    I wish I had the courage to told her, "It was your marriage, it takes two hands to clap. You ruined it, you almost ruined me. It is your fault.".

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    1. @LuckOfFire: Please muster up the courage to talk to your mother about the divorce. I married late because for a long time, I did not believe in marriage after witnessing what my own parents went through. Now I am quite old but my son is still very young & it is something I'll always regret. You need to hear your mother's first person account about what went wrong, so you'll avoid the mistakes, get closer to her, & mend the wounds.

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  5. LIFT,

    You give me the impression that you are blaming your parents now for not being the right kind of parents which you had so hopefully yearn for. But in real life, we can never expect everything to be perfect. Maybe your parents are just as ordinary as any other, so would it have been rather unkind or even ungrateful of you to have such high expectations of what both your parents could have done for you? At least you are now leading quite a comfortable life I believe to the envy of many other people, the least you can do is to aknowledge that your parents must have tried their very best within their means to bring you up as a rather sensible & intelligent person. This is an undeniably fact. Anyway how many years are there left remaining for you to cherish them? So please treasure them as much as you possibly can while they are still alive, whatever perceived shortcomings they possibly have. Life is short.

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  6. LIFT,

    You give me the impression that you are blaming your parents now for not being the right kind of parents which you had so hopefully yearn for. But in real life, we can never expect everything to be perfect. Maybe your parents are just as ordinary as any other, so would it have been rather unkind or even ungrateful of you to have such high expectations of what both your parents could have done for you? At least you are now leading quite a comfortable life I believe to the envy of many other people, the least you can do is to aknowledge that your parents must have tried their very best within their means to bring you up as a rather sensible & intelligent person. This is an undeniably fact. Anyway how many years are there left remaining for you to cherish them? So please treasure them as much as you possibly can while they are still alive, whatever perceived shortcomings they possibly have. Life is short.

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    1. Thanks for your comment Alan and I agree that I am at fault for having high expectations - anyone who has high expectations is far more likely to be disappointed in life. There's this song that comes to mind, "A Pessimist is Never Disappointed" by Theuadience.

      As for my 'comfortable life' - I've just completed my tax return and paid my taxes (UK tax year ends 31 Jan) - I am doing alright but am not earning as much as some of my peers mind you, my 'wealth' comes in a great work life balance and hours of sleep per night, being able to do gymnastics up to 7 times a week etc. I have a friend from university with 2 kids - he works so hard, earns a lot more than me and just hemorrhages money because of the children and whilst he has contemplated changing jobs (he's not happy where he is right now), the thought of even one pay cheque going missing would make everything fall apart in his family, so he has absolutely no choice as it is expensive to bring up children. The main reason why I am financially comfortable is simple: I have no dependents and I only have to take care of myself, unlike my dear friend from uni with 2 kids.

      As for my parents bringing me up to be sensible & intelligent: firstly, intelligence is not something you can instill in a child. Like my sister's chess prowess, she was born with it, she just has this incredible brain that I don't have, that makes her so much smarter than me. My parents 'gave' her that brain when they 'made' her - but it didn't happen as a result of our upbringing (otherwise I would be a chess master too and she would be a gymnastics champion too). OK they tried in their way to bring us up but I didn't like their methods - that led us to be estranged for about 17 years.

      I started taking the first steps to make up with them when I turned 30 - but the results have been disappointing to say the least. Like you said, probably because my expectations are still way too high.

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  7. I'm glad you acknowledge that your post is based on your experiences. Because frankly, I don't see this as very different from a "get out of my uncaring elitist face" post.

    You had a childhood that didn't turn out the way you wanted (and you acknowledge it). But I don't think that it makes sense to generalise your experience to others.

    That you fought through the lack of a good parental example to success does not mean that parents should not strive to set a good example for their kids. Of course many will fail. But it's the effort that counts. And having a good example may make a difference to kids at the margin.

    Above all. You really do seem to resent your parents. I can understand that. Other people I know who had bad relationships with their parents only came to peace with themselves once their parents were dead. I know that the wounds do not heal so easily. But as you say, you expect too much from them.

    I dunno, hope you get somewhere before they're both dead. At least I managed to reconcile with one.

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    1. I think I have identified the part which you have found akin to 'get out of my uncaring elitist face' post: " As a blogger, I have helped many young people in Singapore try to adapt their skills to the working world and I have looked at some CVs and just tutted, nothing special, nothing outstanding, nothing impressive. And that is when I have to persuade these young people to try to get some interesting and useful experiences to spice up their otherwise very bland CVs. If only they excelled in something like chess or any kind of sports, or just did anything special or different that made them stand out."

      I have been painfully blunt there - but I'm only being honest about some of the CVs I have looked at and some of the interactions I've had with job applicants (as I've been a gatekeeper), And sure, it may sound a bit cruel to someone who has not actually done something that amazing, but when you receive say 10 applicants for that one position you're recruiting for, you go through a first round cull and bland CVs are often the easiest to cull in that first round.

      Is my honesty about this process offensive? Does it make me elitist - or am I merely describing an elitist process that I am a part of? What would you prefer, some kinda communist system where everyone is employed by the state no matter what their merits are? As I have said before, I'm not from the 'sayang-sayang brigade' I won't sugar coat my words, I only have blunt honesty to offer. Some people find that offensive.

      As for my parents, yes I have long accepted that the only way I can reach any kind of resolution with them is by blaming myself for having unrealistically high expectations of them when they are just human.

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    2. I'm sorry, that's not what I was referring to. What I was referring to was your belief -- though qualified -- that "I believe that children who want to succeed will succeed regardless of the kind of people their parents are."

      I simply don't think that's true. There will always be those at the margins who fail; who could have done better with the assistance of parents. And so, when you say that parenting doesn't matter; no, it really does. It really does make quite a difference. I've seen it in others (not my own of course).

      Why I think it's akin to -- but not the same as -- an "elite uncaring face" is that it doesn't hold empathy for those who are less fortunate; who would not have crumbled with better parents.

      That being said, I agree with you on the CVs. It doesn't offend me at all; it's just a fact that a poor CV will not attract attention beyond the first 5 seconds of a glance. Been there, done the cull, it's just what it is.

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    3. OK please don't take it the wrong way, I was trying to be encouraging (though in my own way, like I said, I'm not of the sayang-sayang brigade and have a very different approach).

      Sure supportive parents will be a huge help and loads of people who are successful today got to where they are because of the better start in life their supportive parents gave them. That is undeniable - be it a loan to start a business, using a connection to get them a job or even simply paying for a good education: every little bit helps.

      I am however suggesting that those who did not have supportive parents should not give up hope and say, "oh well, the odds are stacked against me, I may as well give up now" - I am saying that these people may not have had a great start in life, but it is still possible to overcome those odds with a great deal of sheer determination to succeed if that is what they want to do, to make their dreams come true, to do what they want to do in spite of the lack of supportive parents.

      Like, what is the alternative? Offer sympathy and say, "the odds are stacked against you, life is unfair and tough, I'm so sorry but you're condemned to a life of failure because of the poor start you've had in life?" What is the point of that kind of empathy or sympathy then? I can cry you a bucket of tears but what can you do with those tears... water the plants maybe??!?

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    4. It would have been a lot simpler had you said that. Because as the comment stands - those who want to succeed will succeed regardless of their parents - the implication is that if you don't succeed, it's because you don't want to succeed.

      Quite a different message from what you intended, I think.

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    5. Well, whilst I was not blatantly trying to encourage anyone in that part of the post, I trust my readers to question me (the way you did) if they did not agree with my message. As for the implication about if you don't succeed it's because you don't wanna succeed - I am perhaps focusing on the success stories of people who have succeeded in spite of their bad start in life because of their family circumstances, rather than those who were screwed from the start because the odds were soooo stacked against them. Like I said, one has two options: focus on the optimistic success stories, or simply offer sympathy to those who have the odds stacked against them.

      If my optimism in choosing to focus on the success stories (I can name you a few, but not now...) is wrong, then what do you propose then? Playing the blame game and condemning bad parents? I have encountered people like that before (both in the UK and Singapore) and they are frustrating to deal with because they choose to blame everyone from the government to the parents to society to the education system to (insert anyone else here) - and they go too far in accepting ZERO responsibility for themselves and their actions. I've got one such friend who is currently in that state, he is an old friend and I really, really, really wanna help him but he is in such a funk over the blame game (his dad passed away just before xmas and he has a lot of father issues to resolve) and there's like NOTHING I can do to get him back to work since his dad died. He's declared himself too depressed to work and I am frustrated watching him like this as he used to have a good job, be happy etc. There's nothing I want more but for him to pull himself together, take responsibility for the situation he is in and get back on his feet - but he has to help himself now, rather than be bogged down with blame issues over his late father.

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    6. Think we're talking at cross purposes.

      When you say "I believe that children who want to succeed will succeed regardless of the kind of people their parents are", you put the onus on the children to want to succeed. So if your reader hasn't succeeded, the implication is that the reader hasn't wanted to succeed enough. Cause your reader is likely no longer a child.

      But when you say "[...] that these people may not have had a great start in life, but it is still possible to overcome those odds with a great deal of sheer determination to succeed if that is what they want to do, to make their dreams come true, to do what they want to do in spite of the lack of supportive parents" -- which is a sentiment I thoroughly agree with -- it holds out hope to the reader that their circumstances can still be overcome.

      See the difference?

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    7. The difference is subtle, does it matter whom I put the onus on? I think we all have to take some responsibility at some stage, take control of the situation - rather than play the victim for the rest of our lives. You can never take control of the situation when you're so busy playing the victim.

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  8. You mention that parents don't have to set examples for their children but you only mention hobbies or skills like chess and gymnastics. I agree with this point, an accountant's child may not necessarily want to be an accountant when the child grows up, but what about other aspects such as manners and moral values? Surely parents must set good examples in these aspects, especially since young children learn by imitating others

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    1. Hi Ron. I think it's a lot more complex than that. Children will only want to imitate people they like - can I stress on the LIKE please. Children are not stupid, they may not have the greatest judgement when they are young - but go up to any child and ask him/her, "who do you like? Who are your favorite people? Who do you dislike? Who do you hate?" The child would be able to rattle off a long list of people they like and dislike.

      Think about it: cast your mind back to primary school. There must be teachers you liked and teachers you hated. Why the difference? Why did you like some teachers and loathe some teachers? Aren't you - as a good student - supposed to respect ALL teachers? Oh, you have a mind of your own even as a primary school student actually. Did that come as a surprise? Why should it?

      So children do not necessarily, automatically just copy their parents - no. They imitate people they like: that is why it is so important for children to have positive role models in their lives. If the parents want to have the power of influence over their children in this aspect, then the first step is to win their children's respect so as to earn that place in their children's hearts as someone to look up to. Unfortunately, some Asian parents just assume that their children will automatically respect them and everything will fall into place and don't ever think about the quality of the relationship with their children.

      I'm afraid in my parents' case, by the time I turned like 12, they were in no position whatsoever to be any influence on me. Heck, by the time I was like 6, I already viewed them with guarded suspicion and was afraid of them - the same way you'll be afraid of a very strict teacher at school. That's just not the same as a child actually liking that teacher/parent - fear is not the same as respect. My parents were super strict, they managed to get me to obey through fear and the threat of physical punishment when I was in primary school - but did I like them enough to want to 'copy' them? No - far from it. Just as well, otherwise I would turn out to be some kind of gangster thug who would beat the crap out of people if they didn't do what I wanted them to do.

      That is not the person I am - even if that was the way my parents behaved. But they missed out on the opportunity to make me want to imitate them. You need to give children a LOT more credit.

      PS. Chess & gymnastics were not just hobbies - they defined my sister and I as people. That's what pisses me off about Singaporeans - you guys don't realize the importance of finding something that you're good at and are so focused on academics. That's so bloody frustrating. I have heard my mother refer to chess as 'just a game' and that got me so frustrated and angry with her because she just couldn't get her head around this point.

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    2. I know that chess and gymnastics are not just hobbies, I can see that you are very passionate about gymnastics, I was just trying to differentiate that chess and gymnastics are something that you 'do' but manners and moral values are something that affects your behaviour, or something like that. I don't really know how to express it.

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    3. Like I said Ron, you need to be in a position of influence before you can exert any kind of influence on the child's morals/manners etc. Thank goodness my parents were in no position to influence me - otherwise I would have followed their example of, "do as I say or I will hit you." Great. What kind of lousy example is that I ask you? I would have gotten into so many fights and have landed myself in jail a very long time ago if I had followed their terrible example.

      They made me obey them through the threat of physical violence. I did as I was told because I was afraid of the pain of the beatings. On the surface, it seemed like I was an obedient child who did as I was told - but when it comes to influencing my behaviour, my parents had absolutely no power of influence whatsoever over me as I resolved not to be like them because simply, I didn't like them from a young age - I was just very afraid of them. Fear and love are quite different things.

      Like I said Ron, maybe this whole concept of love for your parents is too bound up with a sense of duty and what society expects of you. That's why I ask you to think about your teachers in primary school - you would have liked some and hated others. Children are smart enough to figure things like that out - they are not so stupid that they automatically imitate the adults in their lives, they only will allow themselves to be influenced by those they like, not those they fear. On the contrary, they reject those they fear and will rebel against them in their minds - in my mind at least, I didn't want to be like my parents when I grew up, I rejected their values and morals as a result of this fear I had of them when I was a child. For further reading: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/why-i-am-jiat-kentang-banana.html

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  9. Just back from Middle Kingdom where blogspot amongst others websites are banned (Singapore has a smaller ban list but that is a rant for another day) so excuse the late comment.

    A very good case study on the nature vs nature debate is exemplified by László Polgár who believed that "geniuses are made, not born". He then proceeded to marry and raise 3 daughters who are famously known as the Polgár sisters and are historically the 3 strongest ranked female chess players. Susan Polgár became the first ever female true grandmaster who qualified by playing against male opponents and not the more lenient female only system. Judit Polgár who is the only active player left also managed to beat the ex #1 ranked male player Garry Kasparov and highest world rank is #8. The middle of the sisters, Sophia Polgár didn't hold interest long enough to make grandmaster but still made international master.

    If their parents had to lead by example none of them would have been grandmaster since none of their parents even made it that far. You can read their full story here:
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200506/the-grandmaster-experiment

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    1. Thanks for your comment. I believe geniuses (of any kind) are born, not made.

      At least for Chess, my sister has tried to teach me but I am a dunce when it comes to chess - we're siblings but I just don't have her amazing talent.

      As for gymnastics, again, you've gotta be born with the right body to begin with, otherwise it's never gonna happen. There was this gymnast at my gym who had been training there for like 8 years since she was little - she showed so much promise when she was younger and I thought, oooh future national champion, she will go to the Olympics, then she hit puberty and her body changed and now it's like, no she has the wrong body shape for gymnastics now - the weight distribution is all wrong and she cannot bend the way she did before... She is working so hard (I see her there all the time) but she ain't going to the Olympics I'm afraid.

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