Wednesday, 5 September 2012

The English language & the education system in Singapore

I love it when my readers ask very interesting questions which I can then turn into a post like this. Belle Summer asked: Do you have any suggestions on how to improve the general standard of English pronunciation especially for young children? I find it easier to learn the correct pronunciation of Chinese words because we are taught hanyupinyin in school. I wonder why we are not taught the English equivalent, International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA), in school. Of course, we have even better resources today. There are smartphone applications that provide audio pronunciation guides of words. Children are often taught phonics in preschools. Hopefully this helps to raise phonemic awareness although phonics is still not a great way to learn proper pronunciation.

Thank you for the question. I write this as an uncle of a 9 year old nephew who is really struggling with English despite the fact that his mother (my sister) speaks English flawlessly. You know, when I was a teenager, my peers and I predicted that the next generation will not be able to speak their mother tongue and Singapore would become monolingual in English - we were wrong and my nephew is living proof of how totally salah our prediction was. Let me first analyse why children like my nephew struggle with English.
Why do some Asian people struggle with English?

Firstly, he speaks like everyone around him - his father, his grandparents, his classmates, his teachers all have a Singaporean accent and mispronounce words the same way. The kid simply mimics the way others around him talk and who could blame him for that? The kid isn't able to distinguish between the kind of Singlish one uses in informal company and the standard English he is expected to deliver for his exams. If he sounds just like everyone around him, he isn't even aware that there is a problem with his English. Well, until his uncle who lives in England comes along and he tells me I speak like an Angmoh.

Secondly, his teachers in his primary school speak with a Singaporean accent the same way my primary school teachers spoke with a very Singaporean accent. If his teachers are incapable of sounds in English like the TH digraph, how are they expected to teach their students how to speak English correctly? Can you imagine having a driving instructor who cannot parallel park or do a three point turn? No, but such is the situation in Singapore. We have English teachers who may be capable of grammatically perfect English, but they still have a very strong accent. It may be extremely un-PC to criticize anyone for their accent, but in the case of an English teacher, you risk the English teacher passing on his/her strong accent to the students and the teacher has the responsibility to teach English to a high standard.
Do you realize how important the role of the teacher is?

I once ran a mock oral exam with my mother (a retired primary school teacher) for my nephew - the test was to see if he could read a short passage out aloud. My mother gave my nephew a 7/10 and I gave my nephew a 2/10 - and my mother was aghast at how strict I was. Every time my nephew mispronounced a word, I would note down which word in the passage he mispronounced and goodness me, by the time he got through that short passage, I swear my page was wet with ink. He messed up close to 80% of the words - which is why I had to give him a 2/10 which reflected the amount of words he did get right. My mother clearly didn't hear many of his mistakes as she would make exactly the same mistakes my nephew would make. My mother worked for almost 40 years as an English teacher in Singapore and that was the standard of her oral English - so her students would be making the same kinds of glaring mistakes she was making with her bad pronunciation.

Thirdly, the way the examinations are structure, the emphasis is always on written English and the oral exam is not important at all. Singaporean students are given so many tests all the time but are usually given no more than 1 or 2 oral exams a year. Why? That has got to change.

Lastly, I'd like to deal with the irony that my sister speaks flawless English but refuses to do anything to do about her son's rather bad English. I think her opinion is that the poor kid is already criticized by his father for not doing better at school, kena tekan by the teachers at school for not being good at English and even his peers at school think he speaks English badly. So she would gladly ignore the (quite glaring) errors he makes in English and just play the role of the doting, loving, kind mother who is always ready to give praise and approval rather than be harsh, demanding and critical. She speaks to him in standard English and he would reply in broken English and I'd be the only one who would correct him - no one else would. I suppose I can understand where my sister is coming from, she's like, "alamak tolong lah, please lah - give the poor kid a break lah, he is still so young and people are all so critical, please think about his feelings each time he gets criticized and corrected."
My sister is ignoring her son's rather poor grasp of the English language.

Okay, so what can we do about the situation? How can we raise the standard of English? Where do I begin? Is this mission impossible? Well, please allow me to make a few simple suggestions.

1. Start with the teachers

Yup, the teachers need to take responsibility. There are just too many Singaporean teachers out there speaking English with a very strong accent. Look, you wanna have a strong accent - go do something else. Be a nurse, be an architect, be an accountant, be an engineer, be a chef, be a fashion designer, be a physics teacher, be a maths teacher - no one will give a shit about how strong your accent is. But if you wanna be an English teacher, then damnit speak proper standard English. I blame the MOE for the lack of quality control - English is the language of instruction in our education system and is the language of business in Singapore. How is it therefore possible that the MOE has had a shocking lack of quality control?

I can tell you why - this is because the people at the top of the food chain in the MOE all speak English with a very strong accent. They are selfish and self-centred and imagine that the world revolves around them and are too arrogant to admit that there is something wrong with the way they speak English. So they use themselves to set the benchmark and that is why the benchmark is so ridiculously low in Singapore. It takes a visionary to raise the bar, set a new high standard and say, "that's what we should aspire to, we've got a lot of hard work to do, we've got a long way to go but we're going to work hard". That has got to be better than setting the benchmark very low and then congratulating yourselves by saying, "yeah we're doing great as we've met all our targets". The benchmark in Singapore is just too freaking low, it's a joke.
Every school should have at least one English language teacher who is capable of standard English RP - yes I am talking about sounds like the notoriously difficult TH digraph which tend to confuse all non-native English speakers (and some native English speakers too). It is not rocket science really, it just takes time and effort to understand the common mistakes made by Singaporean speakers and deal with them.

2. Educate the parents

There has got to be a wider understanding of the purpose of speaking English well. Parents need to understand why they need to do this and even if they cannot speak English themselves, they should at least help their children learn how to speak it properly. I think the worst situation is when some Singaporean parents speak English really badly and instead of using their mother tongue with their children, they speak broken English with their children and then the kid shows up at school speaking that same kind of broken English. That's when the poor teacher has the unenviable task of having to undo all the damage the parents have inflicted on their children. Aiyoh.
Are you doing your child 's education more harm than good?

I know this sounds terribly harsh - but parents who are not confident in English should avoid using English in front of their children altogether. It is one thing for you to have a conversation with your mates in Singlish, but do not confuse your children with non-standard English. Besides, Singaporean parents should realize that speaking English well is not about acquiring an Angmoh accent, it is simply sounding educated and intelligent, like a person who understands the language s/he is speaking - rather than being an inarticulate person who is struggling to get the right words out.

3. Encouraging the right attitude amongst Singaporeans

Ultimately, a lot of this depends on whether or not the student is willing to put in the hard work to improve his English. A problem we have in Singapore is that people are just too bloody negative and pessimistic. When someone makes an effort to improve his/her English, we label them as pretentious and fake - as if the genuine Singaporean is an inarticulate idiot who struggles even with basic English. Talk about self-hatred, good grief, Singaporeans don't realize how they are projecting their intense self-hatred onto others who do make an effort to try to improve themselves. Oh Singaporeans, why do you hate yourselves so much?

When you call someone fake or pretentious for trying to improve his/her English, the message you send out is this: "oh stop trying to improve yourself, you know you are stupid, you know you cannot improve your English, so why are you even trying? Why don't you just stay stupid and ignorant like the rest of us who are not trying to improve ourselves because we accept that Singaporeans can never speak English properly."
Many Singaporeans have given up themselves. 

Singaporeans have got to get over this defensive stance and this chip on their shoulder. I remember what my former colleague Simon said to me - now Simon is Taiwanese but spent most of his life in America. So Mandarin is his first language and he is equally fluent in American English. He told me, "Singaporeans claim to be bilingual but the truth is that they struggle in both English and Mandarin. I struggle to understand a lot of Singaporeans when they try to speak English because of their accent. When they try to speak Mandarin, good grief, I swear 8 year old kids in Taiwan speak better Mandarin than Singaporeans who have been learning the language for over 10 years in school. It's not that I want to be critical, but the moment I voice this opinion, rather than acknowledge any shortcomings in your education system, Singaporeans get so critical and they often tell me that Taiwanese people struggle with English - and I'm like, so?  I never said they did. Two wrongs don't make a right. I tell you though, at least Taiwanese people are fluent in one language, Singaporeans seem to be only fluent in Singlish and nothing else."

You cannot start to learn until you humble yourself to the need to learn. If you take this, "what is wrong with the way I speak you fucking racist, you jiat kentang fucking fake wannabe go suck some angmoh cock you chao cheeby fucker" attitude (I swear I am not exaggerating, that is the kind of language you will see in Singaporean social media) - if you think there's nothing to be improved, then you will never improve. You know the saying, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink - so even the best teachers and programmes in the world would be useless if Singaporeans are simply not prepared to try to improve their English.

Okay, how do you react to someone who's trying to improve their English but fails big time with embarrassing consequences? I think we can be quite cruel as a nation - that's why we laugh at the character Barbarella of the Noose (Michelle Chong, you're brilliant) - clearly Barbarella would like to speak with an American accent but she misfires on so many levels and the harder she tries, the worse the results. Sadly, the message is this: if you can pull off a convincing RP, then we might let you get away with it, but there's no room for failure. If you try and fail, we're going to be really cruel towards you. Yikes.
4. Those of us who can....

Now I would never ever correct the way another Singaporean speaks English in person (well apart from my nephew) - I can't imagine the kind of offence that would cause given how sensitive it is. I would probably just ignore the broken English and speak in the same kind of Singlish to make the other party feel comfortable (or just switch to Malay or Chinese). Certainly, there are some Singaporeans who obviously speak English better than others - but we would never try to pass that knowledge on to those who struggle with English. So why is this such a big Singaporean social faux pas?

Now imagine if we all helped each other rather than put the onus on the MOE to change the situation. Imagine if people were asking for help with their English from their peers instead of being defensive about the way they spoke English. Imagine if Singaporeans knew they wouldn't get a negative reaction if they politely corrected their friends' English. This would mean allowing a change to happen a lot more quickly, rather expecting the government to fix the problem from the top down. Nice idea - but this will never ever happen in practice. Not in Singapore.

That's why if you met someone like the fictional character of Barbarella in Singapore, well, nobody would even attempt to correct her English which is salah on so many levels. People would bitch about her, criticize her, insult her - but how many people would be willing and able to sit down with someone like that and actually sort her out? Actually many Singaporeans could - but they won't. It's just not in their nature - it's more in their nature to say, "I don't wanna kaypoh, none of my business" and look the other way.
Where does that leave us? Well, no nearer to a situation I'm afraid, I think Singaporeans are way too insecure and defensive to go for option 4 which is probably the easiest and fastest way for us to improve the standard of English on the whole as a country. And even if options 1 and 2 were implemented, the attitude problem as outlined in option 3 would stand in the way of any real progress.

Now I know Belle Sunshine asked a question specifically about helping young children improve their English pronunciation, but I am addressing the issue more generally about the entire population rather than specifically about young children. Young children have parents and other family members they interact with - if you only teach young children how to speak properly, I can guarantee you that their parents will undo all the good work the teachers have done and infect their children with their broken English and bad pronunciation in no time at all. No, you need to look at the bigger picture and deal with the society as a whole, rather than just the very specific cohort of "very young children".

I hope that helps. Do you agree? Is it possible to raise the standard of English in Singapore when even politicians like Seng Han Thong speak broken English? Like dude, the guy is a freaking PAP MP and he can't even string together a basic sentence in English - like how hideously bad is his English? If even your politicians can't freaking speak English, is it fair to expect students to speak proper English when your MPs can't? Do you have any better ideas? How can we address this issue? You know the drill, leave a comment. Thanks - take it away Munah & Hirzi...

71 comments:

  1. You equate a strong Singaporean accent with bad English... I am not sure I agree with that. If a born-and-bred Singaporean pronounces everything correctly (e.g. the TH digraph that you so love mentioning), does that render his/her accent non-Singaporean? I don't think so. I speak pretty good english and don't fall into the common Singaporean traps (e.g. TH digraph, 'stay' instead of 'live', putting the correct emphasis on words like content and cement, etc), but I undoubtedly still have a Singaporean accent (verified by numerous all-American coworkers).

    So I know what your blog post is trying to communicate (and I agree with the above points), but I think that you should adjust the terms you use. Yes, Singaporeans need to improve their English, but I don't think the blame should be placed on our accent. Having a strong accent doesn't mean being bad in English. You can have any accent (french, greek, singaporean, whatever) and still speak great English. Perhaps you attributing our bad english to the singaporean accent is the reason people are calling you racist. There is nothing wrong with our accent per se, but there is something wrong with our English.

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    1. Hi Peanut and thanks for your comment.

      I don't think I equate a strong Singaporean accent with bad English - that is a typical Singaporean defence when they claim that they are merely speaking with an accent but the English isn't inherently bad (ie. there's nothing wrong with their grammar for example). There is then the issue of pronunciation - my nephew would pronounce the word "without" as "widout": now that's a case of wrong pronunciation which can be attributed to his Singaporean accent. However, Singaporeans get so defensive when they think that they are being criticized and they think that anyone who mentions their accent causing mispronunciations is a racist. That is why it is so so hard to correct the way my nephew speaks - and no, I am not even trying as you can bring a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. If he wants to learn how to pronounce words like 'without' properly, he knows where to find his uncle. The problem is that in his head, he doesn't even realize that 'widout' is wrong as 99% of the people around him say 'widout' (or sometimes 'wivout') instead of 'wiTHout'.

      There is quite a range of accents even within Singapore and even amongst those who speak English very well (such as yourself) there is a difference - some would tend to use far more British standard RP rules and others would use more American rules (think BB See vs Adrianna Wow on The Noose). Now they both speak with received pronunciation but still sound very different because of their characters' accents. Staying with the Noose - Michelle Chong uses her RP to create the character of Nida Goodwood (the uptight reporter) who also speaks with RP (albeit a non-American version) - now does Nida's RP sound Singaporean? You be the judge.

      Mind you, I was dealing Belle Sunshine's question about teaching young child how to pronounce English words - so yes I focused on the accent which you seem to want to ring fence as a no-go zone, taboo don't touch. Sorry, but I don't feel the same way and speaking from experience as the guy from Ang Mo Kio, I grew up in Singapore. Primary sch, sec sch, JC, NS - I only left Singapore at the age of 21 and up till then I spoke like a typical Singaporean and made all the typical mistakes. I wasn't even aware of my mistakes since everyone around me spoke just like that - it felt okay, there wasn't a pressing need to correct the way I spoke.

      Then, when I arrived in the UK for university, I realized I sounded distinctively different from my peers and I could hear it so obviously - that was when my ears perked up and I picked out the differences - some more obvious than others and I modified the way I spoke so I sounded a lot more like my peers and was more easily understood. I don't think I spoke bad English in Singapore per se (A1 for English lit at O levels, A for English Lit at A levels, A1 for GP, offered S paper for English Lit but turned it down as I chose 2 other S papers) - on paper, in Singapore, I had a perfect record for my English & English lit as a student - yet I had an accent which led me to make pronunciation mistakes like the TH, which I had to correct when I arrived in England.

      Now where do you draw the line between having an accent and making a mistake? Is pronouncing the word 'without' as 'widout' or 'wivout' acceptable in an oral exam, or do we dock marks for a mispronunciation? Having a slight accent will cause fewer mistakes than having a very strong accent - and even within mistakes, there is a hierarchy. Wivout is somewhat closer to the original WiTHout, but Widout is further from the original. So really, at the risk of sounding un-PC, you cannot divorce the link between accents and mispronunciation.

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    2. * yikes, typo. 3rd para, first line: "teaching young CHILDREN" not young child.

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    3. Agreed. LIFT, I agree with the gist of your points about education and attitude. I really hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I really think you're barking up the wrong tree with pronunciation. Even if for the sake of argument you'd like everyone to be speaking RP, that in itself is already difficult to define and I refer you to Roach (2004) in the Journal of the IPA. If we agree that the aim of learning English well is to communicate with ease with English speaking people then the goal of learning to speak English would be to be understood, would it not? Therefore, to be anal and pick on things like pronouncing TH is frankly unfair because there are plenty of pronunciations that do not realise TH with a dental fricative, for example African American Vernacular, which no one in the English speaking world would really have a problem understanding. In fact, I think the pronunciation that is taught in English classes Singapore is absolutely fine and is well understood. I have no doubt that the English teacher in your video would be understood by all native English speakers.

      With parents speaking to children, I see nothing wrong with parents speaking whatever language they are most comfortable with. In fact, their mother tongue may just be Singlish, which I don't know if you have any objections to but I think that's absolutely fine. I haven't looked into it but my gut feel is that children wouldn't really be confused. Case in point, both you and your sister turned out fine. Perhaps the environments in school or other social circles have much more to do with language acquisition than just the home environment. After all, children do spend a crapload of time in school. But where does that leave us if some parents aren't able to speak a standard variety of English? Perhaps reading books to their children? Television shows like Sesame Street (is that too old school?) may help?

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    4. Hahaha - thanks TY. I realized that this would be a controversial topic - let me explain where I am coming from. I am a linguist who studies so many different languages and I speak ten languages confidently, 6 fluently and get by in about 20. You know I am studying Welsh at the moment and I am joining an increasing number of people in Britain who are adult learners of Welsh. We all speak English as a 1st language and no doubt, many of us start off speaking Welsh with a very strong English accent because we confuse the sounds of the two languages and often make the mistake of reading Welsh words as if they were English. They may share the same alphabet but are pronounced so differently. For example, the word in Welsh for Wales is Cymru - but it is pronounced 'CUM-RI" not Sim-ru or Kim-ru. So all the time, Welsh teachers are struggling to rid this kind of mistakes when Welsh learners are still processing the information in their head in English and trying to get them to a stage where they are fully able to function in Welsh without processing the info in their heads in English.

      So for us Welsh-learners, we do want to drop our English accents and stop making these silly mistakes - we want to sound authentically Welsh.

      I am merely approaching English with the same humble attitude. Now English is a different story with groups like Black Americans and Singaporeans being extremely defensive of their respective accents - there's a sense of "how dare you expect us to sound like white people, this is the way we speak English and if you white people dare to criticize our accent then you are a racist and I will not let you racists walk all over our culture." It becomes such a taboo topic that we are all afraid to even touch - it is a pandora's box that nobody dares to open.

      Now you can talk about the TH with a dental fricative in the African American Vernacular etc and how it is easily understood, but I go back to my Welsh-learner's mode. Yes if I make an error in Welsh, a native Welsh speaker will still understand me, especially if it is a typical learner's mistake made by someone new to the language thinking in English - but it doesn't change the fact that it is still, at the end of the day, a mistake.

      English is the language from England and so I am merely having that same attitude that I adopt as an adult Welsh-learner when it comes to English. I am putting my pride aside and humbling myself as a learner willing to improve himself, rather than getting all defensive with a big chip on my shoulder.

      As for my English - I give credit to my two older sisters who helped me a lot along the way as I was a child. They were fantastic. I couldn't have done it without them. It was tough growing up with two super smart older sisters and always having to live up to their high standards, but it did have some advantages too as they did help me a lot with so many things along the way.

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    5. I'm not at all defensive when it comes to my accent. Actually, I do think the Singaporean accent can sound pretty bad. An American coworker once said we sound like children. This kind of stinks, because I would think we would want to be taken seriously.

      It's a fair point that there is a very fine line between mispronunciation and accent, BUT there IS a line I think. I grew up in Singapore as well, got married to an American and moved to the USA. I work in an American company where I am the only Singaporean, and almost all of my coworkers have North-east American accents. As such, I have had the privilege of being trained in 'proper' English the way you were in England. Nonetheless, I still have a Singaporean accent!! This is not something you can shake.

      While I still stand by the fact that an accent is not linked to actual pronunciation (e.g. 'widout' is just bad English; but you can say 'wiTHout', which is correct, in a Singaporean accent), I do agree with you on one thing... when I go back to Singapore and start pronouncing words the correct way (but with a Singaporean accent), then it's all "oh, you trying to be an American? Poseur!!" So I'm with you on that one.

      So then this becomes interesting... we're speaking with a Singaporean accent mixed with an English/ American one... so what accent do we have then? I don't think my accent will ever really sound like an American one, and I don't think yours will sound really English. If we did sound that American/ English, we wouldn't have been pinned 'poseur' or 'racist' by others, they would simply assume we are American- or English-born chinese.

      Hmm, food for thought.

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    6. I disagree with TY that it doesn't matter what the pronunciation is as long as the words are understood.

      Wait, let's backpedal a little bit - no, we are not easily understood by native speakers of English. Not all the time anyway. Here is an example. In 1994, I was in San Francisco with my family. My brother went to Staples (an office supply store) to look for a calendar. We found him an hour later surrounded by 3 people who worked there, looking at him in bewilderment. He was saying "A calendar, I need a calendar! That thing with squares and dates on it!!" The staff continued to look confused. My uncle, who had lived in America for several years said, "he is looking for a calendar". In unison, the staff said, "OOoohhh, a calendar."

      Why did this happen? In the Singaporean accent, it is pronounced 'caLENdar' with an emphasis on the 'LEN' and with the 'LEN' sounding like the LEN in the word 'LENSES'. In the US, the 'LEN' sounds more like 'lern' and with emphasis on the 'CA'.

      Okay, that aside, now assume we ARE easily understood. As I mentioned in another comment, a foreign coworker had commented that we sound like children. Over the next few years, I have heard this remark repeated several times by Englishmen as well. How can we be taken seriously if we sound like 3 year olds? We speak incorrect English and from the get-go the level of respect we command already dips. So if I don't correct myself, when I speak to a client here in the US, I would have to work extra hard in order to communicate that I am a capable professional. This is a disadvantage that I don't need, especially since I am already quite comical, being short, a woman, and Asian (relax, this is a joke... though it is somewhat true that it is harder to get ahead with those stats). This is particularly bad if you don't have much time with the person. If you only have 2 minutes to make an impression, you will probably leave a bad one if you speak poorly. While eloquence isn't everything, it certainly helps. All other things being equal, would you engage someone who is articulate or someone who is not?

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    7. Hiya. Thanks for your post. Allow me to respond to your points.

      I think we are confusing each other to talk about a "Singaporean accent" as if it was something that is clearly defined. What is a Singaporean accent? Is it the way someone like our famous beauty queen Ris Low talks? In case you're not familiar with her, she was the most notorious Miss Singapore to date for so many reasons - but everyone remembers her for her shockingly bad English.

      Whilst I have never met you and have no idea how you speak Peanut, I am guessing that you speak English very well and there are probably just a hint of a non-American, non-British accent that makes you different from your peers. You may call it a Singaporean accent but when I put you next to someone like Ris Low, you will still sound distinctively different from Ms Low.

      There is a huge spectrum of Singaporean accents in S'pore: you're quite happy to label 'widout' as just bad English - but there are so many words like that which Singaporeans mispronounce and most of the time, one simply chalks that up to the accent rather than classify that as an error.

      My accent varies depending on whom I am talking to - but I have a very mixed up accent with all kinds of influences because I speak 20 languages. I tend to turn a normal R in English into an Alveolar trill - that is something taken from Welsh, Spanish, Czech, Finnish and Italian. I really roll my Rs, now that's the Welsh creeping into my English... I have a group of friends - the hyperglots - and we all speak more than 10 language at least, some of them speak 30+ languages and they have all kinds of influences on their English because they are functioning and thinking in so many languages simultaneously.

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    8. LIFT, I get your point. If one were a learner of a language, one would choose a particular dialect of the language and emulate. And I think you would agree that it's usually easiest to stick to one particular pronunciation and be consistent and when fluent, experiment just for the hell of it with other accents of that language.

      I'm just trying to say that outside the classroom, people are going to speak Singlish (in various registers) and that really shouldn't draw much ire and nitpicking with English standards would be quite futile because it's a similar but very different language. In the classroom, by all means, a standard has already been chosen, so yes, teachers really should strive to that standard. But the pronunciation of standard Singapore English isn't exactly RP either so perhaps you'll agree that teachers can teach with a Singaporean accent (of the highest register) but remain cognizant of pronunciation issues that may cause confusion in other English variants. Besides, other than pronunciation, accents also vary with stress, prosody and ?tone and speakers of other dialects of English cause equal amounts of confusion with each other too! Interestingly, something that may interest you is that I found an IPA chart on Wikipedia of some English dialects. That was very cool for me.

      Peanut, pronunciation among other things that I've mentioned is part of the definition of accent. You may pronounce consonants and vowels differently from Singaporeans or use a different tone or prosody, but if you're not perfect (and you're not likely to be if you did not move before a certain age) then yeah, of course you would sound quite different from the norm anywhere, hence, accusations of you being a poser. Look, Americans who go off to the UK and end up with hybrid accent are going to get the same treatment also, so it's not just a Singaporean issue. But really, why bother if you're comfortable and understood?

      With being understood, firstly, people from different places are going to have different accents which may already cause confusion. That is even more so with people speaking different dialects. A New Yorker and a Londoner are likely to encounter mild difficulties in communication. A New Yorker talking about a laboratory (stress on the first syllable) may give the Londoner the impression that he's talking about a washroom/bathroom/toilet. Your example was that of a mild misunderstanding and it was easily resolved, and that is to be expected of people speaking standard Singapore English like the teacher in the video.

      Secondly, accent discrimination, prejudice and stereotyping exist and unfortunately it's something we have to live with. Some might not put up with it but realistically speaking it really depends on context. It depends on your aims. If you're in the States looking for a job where communication skills is an important criterion, of course you'd do as the Romans do! What kind of a crap communicator would you be if you can't communicate in the same vernacular! Also, aren't you oversimplifying "making and impression"? Context really matters. You can't generalize with your specific experiences.

      Most Singaporeans are not going to go overseas, so there's no disadvantage if they don't speak a foreign dialect English. What's more important is the ability to code switch and adapt to the peculiarities of a local dialect if necessary.

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    9. Thanks for your point. It's way past my bed time, I just wanted to share one last point with you before I go and tidur.

      You're obviously brilliant in English - but I don't know if you've ever been taken out of your comfort zone and thrown into another language which you are not familiar with and have only studied for a limited period of time? It does put you on a back foot and I have done that with so many languages.

      It's a humbling experience. I swear it makes me feel inadequate, inarticulate, even downright stupid when I realize I don't know how the word for something in that language... It's like when I was in Wales recently, I kept telling the Welsh speakers to bear with me, struggle on with me and we will not lapse into English and often I have to ask them, "Sorry I didn't understand that part, could you explain it to me please?"

      Like I said, very very humbling. I am always guilty of constructing sentences in Welsh using English grammar because I am thinking in English still and I would always be corrected when I make mistakes like that or when I mispronounce words. I would NEVER claim "oh that's my accent" - I would apologize for the mistake and then thank the person for correcting me. How else am I going to learn and improve otherwise?

      Now I am merely applying that same humble attitude with my English - because I do realize that my English isn't perfect and there's room for improvement and the only way to improve is to put one's pride aside and be that humble student (the stance I take when learning Welsh). What have I got to lose by being humble? I have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

      I feel sorry for those who are too proud and arrogant to adopt a more humble stance, because they are denying themselves the chance to learn and improve their English.

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    10. Thanks for sharing that. I too have just been recently put in that situation. I felt really helpless but I, too, saw it positively. Whatever I didn't know before, I now know. I think what you've got is a very good attitude to learning.

      But I think some people have better things to do than learn languages. I'm sure you'll agree that there are things you are not so good at and don't see why you should improve. For some, they function well under their circumstances and therefore don't see the need. Or perhaps they see it as something that would be nice to do, but they just can't spare the effort. Either way, for someone to come in and say your whatever sucks, it makes you stupid, change it. It's like you've insulted me and now you want to tell me what to do? It's no wonder why you'll get a hyperreaction like knnbccb, this cb kia wanna tell me how to run my life?

      I'm not telling you how to run your blog, so I hope you're not offended, but I'm just saying that sometimes your message (which is inherently positive) might get misinterpreted, which is really a shame.

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    11. I have made this point before but I'll use it again.

      This article was about the education system and how it affects young students learning English - it was never meant to be about adults who are done with their formal education.

      I have a sister in Ang Mo Kio who deals with locals and PRCs - whilst I work in London now and deal mostly with Europeans. For my sister, she doesn't need standard English at all - she needs Singapore English, Singlish and most of all, MANDARIN. For me, I need standard English and French (and some Spanish, Italian, German etc). Ironically, my Mandarin is definitely better than hers, but I digress. I have former classmates scattered all over the world today: Australia, Qatar, Gabon, India, UK, US, NZ, Germany, France, Canada... They would need a different kind of English to communicate with their colleagues, compared to someone like my sister who works in AMK.

      Whilst we were students, my sister and I had no idea what we would end up doing in our working lives. The English teacher should therefore not assume that all the students would end up working locally in the HDB heartlands and never ever meet a non-Singaporean in their working lives. The teacher should recognize that some of her students could well end up in another country and thus would need to learn a far more international form of standard English to communicate with non-Singaporeans, so the students leave school equipped with the right language skills to enable them to undertake the challenge of working abroad should they choose to do so.

      It is all about giving students the best possible array of skills as part of their education - after all, their parents have paid good money for their education, they may as well get their money's worth. As we say in Hokkien, "kao pun".

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  2. I did see your Olympics 20+ video and was very impressed. :) Learning Welsh is pretty amazing, especially since you're not doing it for its usefulness (because it really isn't terribly universal).

    Gee, I sure hope I sound nothing like Ms Boomz. Haha. Okay, I'm not going to split hairs on the issue, but instead just agree we all need to improve. Maybe one day we can go back and not be called white-sympathizers. And perhaps on that day the middle-of-the-bell-curve Singaporean accent will be... better. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

    Thanks for the article, and please keep them coming!

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    1. Thanks. Oh Welsh is useful in my context as I live in London and Wales is about 2-3 hours away and I can get paid work in Welsh media - I have just done a game show with S4C (Channel 4 Wales) and whilst only about 300,000 people speak Welsh fluently, it is a national language here in the UK. So yeah, whilst a third of British people speak French (our most widely spoken foreign language), it has no official status at all here so nothing is in French here in the UK.

      Whereas for the 300,000 Welsh speakers, they have TV stations, radio stations, newspapers etc - why?!? Because it is a national language. Heck, there are 60,000 Scottish Gaelic speakers and same thing - TV, radio, news, media etc. It's a strange thing but there is a concerted effort to save and preserve these indigenous languages.

      Do you know my Welsh studies are heavily subsidized by the Welsh government who are throwing money at anyone who is willing to study the language? I have a friend who studying Arabic at the moment and she gets virtually no support from the government and she pays full whack to study Arabic. Anyway, I've had enough work in Wales with my Welsh to have paid for my studies - but I'm studying Welsh not for the money per se, but more for the love of the language.

      The equivalent in America would be efforts to save Native American languages like Cherokee and Navajo.

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    3. I must say, Limpeh, your Taiwanese colleague, well, tact is not his middle name is it? Seriously, not many people, of any land, will take kindly to foreigners criticizing their speech patterns or their lack of fluency. Sorry, but this is common sense and for him to moan that his well-meaning feedback is not taken in a constructive manner is quite astonishing.

      I agree that teachers need to be trained and qualified for the job, and that would make a world of difference, regardless of the family environment. If Singapore could start from scratch, I would recommend plumping for Standard American English, simply because it will feel familiar to most.

      As for mispronouncing TH, I feel it is a minor thing, a sign of the times, a regional variance if you will, much like the way Kiwis tend to drag out the e's. Look even the Queen has softened her RP over the decades, as has Tony Blair.

      Much more serious is the mix-up of R's and L's. It is similar to, no actually worse than, Germans/Indians mispronouncing W.

      If one really needs a wake up call, then the sure fire way is via an employer survey which should reveal the state of the English Language in Singapore, and if it is fit for purpose. If it isn't, fix the shortcomings. Simples!

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    4. I think there is a school of thought prevalent amongst the people who have posted comments here - that is, Singaporean English is perfectly okay because it is well understood and used as a lingua franca amongst the 5 million Singaporeans who use it on a daily basis in Singapore; so it should be accepted as a regional accent, rather than something to be weeded out of students.

      Here's my take on that - my sister works in Ang Mo Kio and deals only with Singaporeans and some PRCs. On the other hand, I am based in London now, working for a company HQed in Luxembourg and I deal with Europeans mostly. So for someone like my sister, her Singaporean-English is perfectly fine for her role - whereas I have to adhere to a far more international form of standard English to make myself understood by my English speaking clients. Different people, different jobs, different needs.

      Now when we were students all those years in Singapore - we didn't know what kinds of jobs we were going to end up doing or where we would be working. Hence the onus was on the schools to provide us with the skills to do anything and everything we wanted to do and that should include standard English (as opposed to Singaporean-English). If you find that you don't need it as an adult (as in my sister's case), that's perfectly fine. It's just another skill you don't use - I speak Hokkien rather well but it's a skill I don't use for work. There are plenty of skills I don't use for work - too many to name here.

      But if a Singaporean student leaves school without a decent grasp of standard English - it's not his fault, I blame the teacher for letting him down. I hold the teacher responsible because parents have PAID for a service, for their children to be educated and there has got to be some quality control in that process.

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    5. To put it simply - A government's job is to ensure its citizens have the range of skills that meet the requirements of jobs created within its borders. It is not the job of the government to train its citizens in skills that are irrelevant to the national economy.

      If the employer survey shows that businesses are concerned about the standard of English in Singapore, and thus think this will prevent mid to high level jobs from going to Singaporeans (or any level of jobs for that matter) for example, then it behooves the government to ensure that something is done about it. If however, the survey shows something else, say lack of science majors being the most pressing concern, than the government needs to take steps to rectify the situation.

      Look, in Switzerland, such a survey influenced the government to place an emphasis on the teaching of (high) German in schools, and to mandate that all subjects, bar Art and Music, be taught in high German from primary one. And if a similar survey were to be conducted in Singapore (and such a survey would definitely include a segment on language skills I would assume), then it'll surely reveal the state of the language in Singapore and its relevance to the economy.

      Surely this will snap the country to attention and remove any opposition, real or imagined, to improving standards. Language is an emotive issue in any society and no amount of posturing is going to help. And in Singapore where practicality rules, it helps to tie the issue to the bottom line.

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  3. I'm confused... why does 'th' fall under "bad English" and not "Singaporean accent?"

    Since we're talking about 'th' - The Spanish pepper their speech with a lisp that sounds like 'th,' whereas Latin Americans generally don't. Latin American Spanish isn't bad Spanish... it's just a different accent. I'm curious to know then why the lack of 'th' in Singaporean English is bad as opposed to an accent.

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    1. OK, let's try this then. My dad confuses his Ls and Rs - a rather typical fault. So if you will accept people who turn TH into T/D/V ... what about accepting my dad's brand of Engrish then? Just take this simple sentence:

      We allived at de lestaulant a bit rate and even dough we had a leservation, de waitless said dey had arleady given our table to anodder famiry.

      That's just me turning the THs, Ls and Rs into how my dad would pronounce it. Now, is this "bad English" or "Singapore/Malaysian accent?" (My dad has Singapore nationality but was born in Malaysia and grew up there.)

      People around the world butcher English in all kinds of ways in the name of having an accent because phonetics are rarely taught to students (except maybe at university level) - compare this to Mandarin where we use Hanyupinyin widely to tell us exactly, precisely how each character is meant to be pronounced. No ifs, no buts, no room for accents - there is one way to pronounce it. Sure, people like my dad have a VERY strong Malaysian accent and you should hear the way he speaks Mandarin with his super strong M'sian accent and yeah, in terms of hanyupinyin, he's like waaaaaaaaaaaay off in Mandarin as well!

      Now you can talk about Malaysian Mandarin till the cows come home - but it doesn't change the fact that his kind of Malaysian-Mandarin doesn't match the characters' pinyin in the standard hanyupinyin system. That's why my dad cannot use anything like computers or texting systems on mobile phones that rely on hanyupinyin because his accent just gets in the way!

      All I am doing is defaulting to standard English which does clearly define how the TH digaph should sound. So when my nephew says 'widout' instead of 'wiTHout' - then that's the same as my dad pronouncing 护士 as Fùshì instead of Hùshì. A mistake is a mistake - and yes I am being strict.

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    2. I'd call it an accent unless and until we can find some standard of reference. Being universally intelligible certainly isn't one - No one calls Scottish English bad English, yet Lord knows I'll never understand a Scottish accent for example. Accents exist on a continuum, and obviously the stronger an accent gets the harder it is to understand by the rest of the world.

      Regional accents also evolve over time, and I'd say your father's accent is typical of the Chinese-educated accent throughout the peninsula not too long ago. It is just that this evolution occurs so quickly in Singapore, that instead of a gradual change over generations, we have jarring intergenerational differences. I'd say this runs true for many things - social mores, dialects, etc., but that's another discussion for another day.

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    3. That's where we'll have to agree to disagree - maybe if you argued that wivout/wiTHout is subtle enough to be an accent rather than a mistake, then fair enough. But seriously, my dad's L/R inversion is a mistake rather than an accent... you've GOT to draw the line somewhere and the L/R inversion is so on the wrong side of that line.

      I did write another piece on the generation gap: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-generation-gap-ten-things-my.html

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    4. In your opinion then which side of the line is d/v/th on?

      I just don't think you can accept one and not the other... it's a complete slippery slope.

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    5. Since you've asked, I think there is no room for manoeuvre - turning a TH into anything else, even a V is a mistake.

      I refer you to trying to generate Chinese characters via pinyin on a mobile phone or a computer - say I want the word 张 "Zhāng" - if I typed in Zang or Zhan or Chang - the computer is not going to be able to guess that I actually meant Zhang, unless there was something very specific in the context that allows the computer to realize that I had made a mistake with my hanyupinyin.

      It's like a phone number. Even if you're trying to call me, it doesn't matter if you almost got all the phone numbers right - as long as you got 1 number wrong, that's it - it's a wrong number. Likewise with an email address, if you're trying to email me, if you get one letter wrong, it's going to go to either the wrong person or it's just gonna bounce.

      So! By that token, I humbly admit that my English is NOT perfect and whilst I have worked hard to improve it, there is room for improvement. But I simply refuse to accept the "oh everyone has their own accent so it's all okay." No it isn't. Far from it. You see, I love learning foreign languages and as you know I am learning Welsh now. I'm not going to just pronounce Welsh words any darn way Limpeh likes - hell no. I want to know exactly and precisely how they are meant to be pronounced so I can be understood perfectly when I use those words in conversation. I am humble enough to say, "my accent is wrong, I am not good at languages, I have to improve, I have to learn how to pronounce words properly". That's the other extreme, compared to what you're proposing, ie. my dad's L/R inversion is perfectly okay. It's just an accent. I reject that, sorry. I respect your opinion but I think you're wrong.

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    6. I don't think it's binary wrong-or-right at all. Everyone has an accent. It can be intelligible or unintelligible. It can be thick or not. People lucky to have intelligible accents are lucky that they don't have to work too hard to get others to understand. People with thick, unintelligible accents (Singlish, Scottish etc.) need a strong command of a certain language are able to modify the way they speak to make it more intelligible, whether by imitating their their audience, or by transitioning to a more commonly experienced one like British or American (even these are broad generalizations - ever tried understanding a Cajun guy?) in the case of English. There are thus no wrong or right accents, but there are strong or weak commands of languages that determine one's ability to bridge gaps caused by differing accents. To bring it back to my original question- I have had Spanish professors who were able to turn their lisps on and off, and Argentinian teachers who were able to resist the urge to pronounce "ll" as "j." So, the way I see it, your dad doesn't have a bad accent, but a weak command of the English language. There's a difference there. To side track a little, I think there's a difference between spoken and written command, and in this case I am referring solely to spoken command.

      Your comparison of Welsh isn't really apples-to-apples.... I don't know the first thing about Welsh but I'd venture to say that, universally, it has much fewer variations in accents than English.

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    7. Or let's turn this around and talk about my nephew then - he has a really strong Singaporean accent and it is so strong that sometimes, he does the L/R inversion along with many other mistakes. You may tell me, "that's perfectly alright, it's an accent" - but what if he goes to an English oral exam and the English teacher fails him for mistakes like that?

      It's so easy to make PC statements about the accents of others - but in reality, we all need a certain level of English for school and for work in Singapore and that bar is not so low that anything goes.

      Again, we have to disagree. Obviously from the way you write, you have an incredibly high standard of English and you're waxing lyrical about this issue from your arm chair - whilst I have the far more practical issue of "good grief, if my nephew can't speak half decent English, how is he going to get a job in the future?" You have the luxury that many in Singapore don't - you've obviously won the battle with the English language. Spare a thought for people like my nephew.

      Anyway, it doesn't matter what language I am learning: Welsh, Spanish, Croatian, Czech, Russian, Korean, Arabic - the bottom line is I approach every language I learn with a very humble attitude, ready to be corrected. I feel that some people are simply lazy when they'd rather defend their accent (and all the mispronunciations that occur as a result of that accent) rather than spend some effort to figure out how to rectify those mistakes and improve their pronunciation of that language.

      It's not the language that matters - it's the attitude of the speaker. And I am saying that I am a humble student, not an arrogant person who thinks that his accent is beyond reproach and anyone who dares to criticize his accent is an intolerant racist. That's a terrible attitude which I reject. I'd much rather be humble, thank you.

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    8. LIFT, I don't think it's about being PC. It's not that anything goes - L/R inversion does not fly because it's going to cause confusion with other English speakers and is certainly not the variant of English taught in Singapore schools. If he can't code switch, then like Glenn said, your nephew has a poor command, just like your dad.

      Everyone should be humble about their approach to learning, but there's no need to be condescending. You're a perfectionist, so am I, I get it. But you can't judge everyone based on your standards, some people just want to be able to understand and be understood.

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    9. I'd just like to mention that this attitude isn't particularly the best for learning a language fully but I'm just saying that I understand where some people are coming from and it would be unfair to judge them based on that. After all, isn't it a good thing already that they're giving it a go?

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    10. Aha - TY, read the article I have written earlier in praise of Singlish and the importance of Singlish: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/bilingualism-in-singapore-via-singlish.html I hope that shows that I am not looking down on people who are "giving it a go" and I am able to see the wider picture.

      But since I was challenged on the point of where the line is drawn to distinguish a mistake from an accent... I had to clarify my point. After all, if you start permitting certain things: without as widout, wivout, wizout or witout (and any other variation you can come up with) - then we just get into such a mess. Hence the only sensible way is to default to the way a word like "without" is meant to be pronounced by RP rules. We already do this in Mandarin via Hanyupinyin - so why is this such an emotive subject in English? Yes English is widely spoken globally - and a lot of people do not speak it correctly, so? Tell me something new.

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    11. With regards to your nephew's situation - I believe the correct approach would be to build up his command of English and hence his ability to recognize where more enunciation, emphasis or a different pronunciation is required. I've read that accents are ingrained past a certain age... so I'd argue that this his best bet.

      With regards to your latter point, it already exists in the form of the Katong accent.

      Lastly, I don't think that number of speakers is a good barometer for suitability of usage. The Channel 5 accent for example, with its unique cadence, is spoken probably by a handful of newscasters and no one else. I have no idea where they even came up with it... but if I could speak it I wouldn't be averse to using it in any business or social settings.

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    12. Katong accent? Great. How about an Ang Mo Kio Avenue 3 accent? Or a Toa Payoh Lorong 2 accent?

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  4. Some linguists believe that language has two main functions: communication and establishing identity (i.e. categorising "us" and "them"). Singaporeans find a fellow Singaporean speaking in another accent "weird" or "fake" because they're confronted by otherness. It's natural to feel awkward and uncomfortable talking to them at first. This is perhaps why you might've felt a little alienated when you spoke Singapore English with the English when you first arrived in London. But, this only happens in the first stages of communication. Both speakers need to be used to each other's accent (by adapting the way they speak to each other) before any in depth communication can begin.

    Language in the general sense refer to "English", "French" etc. However, when we communicate, we don't just speak languages, we speak in idiolects which differ depending on the person we're speaking to and the formality required etc. As you've said, when you speak to Singaporeans, you might prefer to speak in Singapore English (informal); when you do a presentation in Singapore, you might prefer to use Singapore English (formal). Speech cannot be always the same, it has to ADAPT. This is why learning a language is so hard. It's not only about learning the STANDARD, but also learning how to switch to the other varieties when necessary. Singaporeans don't have to learn British English because we don't live in Britain. It clearly isn't possible to change the accent of our teachers in a day, nor is it feasible to replace locals with British teachers. But as TY has pointed out (I think), it is necessary for Singaporeans in UK to speak British English in order to be understood and to make friends.

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    1. All fair points. I just wanted to point out though that when I arrived in the UK, I had just come from France where I had been studying and had this really strange accent which was French + Singlish + American English. I had been in a French only English-free zone for a while.

      When you speak 2 languages eg. English & Mandarin, then it is very obvious how one could influence the other. But when you speak several languages like we do, then it is far more likely to result in an accent that is far harder to place geographically. I have the habit of rolling/trilling my Rs if the first word of the sentence starts with an R, like "Rrrrrrrright then, shall we begin?" Most people who hear that don't quite know what language that comes from (I think it's Welsh, but it could well be Finnish, Czech or even Italain) - but such is the mix of languages in my head.

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    3. Take 2, too many mistakes in that last post!

      Sorry last sentence is vague but you can't edit comments. I meant to say that Welsh, Finnish, Czech and Italian all have that rolled/trilled Rs. I do speak Welsh and Italian competently and I have a very basic grasp of Finnish and Czech. Thus have used my Rrrrrrr's in those languages and somehow that's crept into my English even though it is not a sound used in standard English. I use the rolled R to put emphasis on the first word of the sentence, to give it impact, to start the sentence off with a bang - I wouldn't use it in the middle or end of the sentence though.

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  5. "Correct" is a very hazy term. "platicar" is correct in Chile (where I am right now!), but is perceived as incorrect in Peninsular Spain ("conversar"). The elision of the "s" is considered correct here but not in Mexico or Spain. You'll be corrected differently depending on where you are. Your idea that "English" is British is rather outdated. English is "globish", a mélange of different dialects, idiolects and accents AROUND THE WORLD. English doesn't belong to anyone, and I don't see why we have to be embarrassed about our accent when the Chileans or Argentinians don't see anything wrong with theirs. There IS however still a difference between GOOD Singapore English and BAD Singapore English. It's like GOOD Chilean Spanish (Si hubiera ido al mercado, habría comprado un pescado) vs BAD Chilean Spanish (Si habría ido al mercado, habría comprado un pescado).

    Besides, not everyone's a linguist. Some people really only want to get by speaking the language and be understood... It's not like speaking the standard is as important for you as for someone else who's not interested in languages at all. (I'm an ardent lover of languages, but ever since I've started teaching English in Chile, I'm beginning to change my mind on whether learning the perceived Standard Language is really that important at all)...

    And you should be more than aware of the difficulties of speaking the standard language, if there is even one. Even though you claim you speak French at a native level, I've heard lots of mispronunciations and grammatical errors in the articles you've typed and the video you were speaking more than 20 languages. Your Mandarin is far from perfect too. And let's not get started on your Spanish. I'm not criticising your language learning abilities - I've been learning languages myself for years and I'm still far from perfect. But my point is that learning a language is extremely difficult, especially one that is not your native tongue. Singaporeans can communicate well enough in Singapore English, if not in Singlish. I don't see why these languages should be given less value than Taiwanese Mandarin or Chilean Spanish. Singlish and Singapore English can very well express the complex ideas other languages can express too.

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    1. Well, I never claim to speak French at native level - I said fluent or at best near-native. And please, never mind French, Spanish or Mandarin, I humble myself and can tell you that I make mistakes even in English. It doesn't stop me, however, from aspiring to work hard and improve the language I do speak in and try to improve my pronunciation.

      This is what totally IRKS me about Singaporeans - this utter, total refusal to make any effort whatsoever to try to improve themselves and any suggestion of "improving" anything is perceived as a racist attack. I speak several languages and I make mistakes in all of them - including English. The difference is my humble attitude to be willing to be corrected because I have a burning desire to learn and improve. It saddens and frustrates me that Singaporeans think that their English (with all their mistakes and mispronunciations) should be ring faced and marked "TABOO, don't touch" - so we can just create a label for it, call it Singapore English where anything goes in the name of an accent so people don't have to give a damn about rules, where "without" can be said any darn way you like.

      I don't think that's okay. I refer you to hanyupinyin's role in Mandarin which I have talked a lot about already.

      And as for grammatical errors in my blog here - please. You know one cannot edit one's comments (but one can edit one's articles) ... I have been multi-tasking, getting distracted by making coffee, reading text messages, emails coming in and then I just had just written a comment (in ENGLISH may I add) - and when I went back to read it I was like, WTF - oh dear, it's so full of errors because I wasn't focusing on what I was doing and I just had to delete it and start all over again because it was really that bad. Sometimes I take the time to proof read what I have written - sometimes I don't and post in a hurry. And yes sometimes I make really stupid mistakes and when a reader points them out to me, I'm like duh sorry, my bad, but please understand that I can make mistakes when I write quiclky and mitskaes do slip through the net. I only take it upon trust that you will realize that some of these mistakes are a result of me not editing my work properly - rather than because I have such a poor grasp of the language. But if you insist on looking down on me for my typos and mistakes like that - then well - I can't change your mind. This blog is a forum for me to air my views, it is not an exam and I will continue to make silly mistakes along the way. I'd just much rather push on and write my next post when there's a burning desire to share an ideal - rather than to go through my previous article with a fine comb to deal with any errors I may have made.

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    2. Lastly, you may wanna point out to me that there is American English which is can sound very different from standard British English and it is generally accepted as good English or American English - rather than 'bad' English. But American English (including the variants within the N American continent) is spoken by about 330 million people and you can rock up to a hotel room in Dubai, Moscow, Lagos, Santiago or Bali and watch CNN on your hotel TV - it has earned its rightful place as a globally recognized form of English.

      Let's be humble here. Singapore is a small dot on the map. You've heard that before. We're a very small country. Singapore English does not enjoy the same kind of status as the kind of American English we hear on CNN. Trying to afford it the same kind of status is just not practical the moment one ventures out of Singapore. It is a question of being practical. We could, as an academic exercise, create an Eastern Singaporean English which is distinctively different from Singaporean English within which we can have the Bedok, Tampines, Changi, Pasir Ris and Pulau Ubin dialects. Let's not stop there, we can also differentiate between the North Bedok version and the South Bedok version.

      So can the South Bedok - Bedok English of the Eastern Singaporean English version be given the same value as RP or American English? You see when it starts getting utterly ridiculous? Imagine if a kid shows up in class inverting his L/Rs and the teacher tries to correct him and the kid says, "but teacher, dat is how we talk in North Bedok what, it is collect where I come flom lah, so you cannot cliticize me."


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    3. Nah, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasnt referring to the grammatical errors in the articles you wrote in English, but a couple of comments you wrote in French that were rather ungrammatical. Anyway, that was to illustrate the difficulty of completely mastering a foreign language, not I mentioned it was not to criticise your language learning skills, which I definitely admire. I can speak several languages, but not 20!! That IS an achievement! :)

      I think you didnt understand what I was trying to say as well. Language doesnt differ geographically in Singapore as much as it does between social classes or different groups of people of different backgrounds. But all would agree that there is some sort of standard and there are still expectations of articulating the standard on certain occasions. L~R alternation in English is still stigmatised, so it isnt generally perceived as correct to speak as such even in informal conversations. However the TH-sound being articulated as /t/ or /d/ may be alright even in standard Singapore English. For that, I dont see a problem with teachers not being able to pronounce this sound as one would in RP.

      There are 5.2 million Scottish and 3 million Welsh who are allowed to speak in their own accents, while 5.5 million Singaporeans are considered too few to speak in their own accent? Speaking Singapore English does not hinder communication with the rest of the world. It doesnt mean if you`re not British or American, then no one would understand what you`re saying. If the S accent becomes an obstacle in comprehension, then all thats needed is to slow down and to give the other speaker time to get used to our accent.

      It`s natural for people to get defensive when criticised. It doesnt only happen with languages! (You did get rather defensive as well when replying to the youtube comments about your language skills, didnt you?) People dont like to be told they arent good. They mightve liked to learn, but maybe the person who corrects should exercise more tact as well? And as mentioned, some people really believe that language is merely a tool for communication and as long as they can get by then thats fine for them. We should acknowledge that isnt totally an invalid point of view either! Not everyone is a hyper-enthusiastic linguist like us, you know?! Haha.

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    4. OK, since you wanted to get into my French - let me make a simple point: there is a gulf between formal French that one would use for a French exam at university or when meeting the CEO of a French company and the rather kind of informal 'street' French that I picked up whilst working with French people. I remember my good friend Jean-Michel teaching me phrases like "ouesh bien les meufs?" to make my French sound more 'street'. Now that's so far from proper French I would only use it with people I know very well - it's the equivalent of "how's it going ladies?" - but it came with the warning: NEVER use la meuf/les meufs with a French woman unless you know her really well, like she's your good friend as it can be perceived as being impolite.

      I could write a whole article on that kind of street French my two mates Jean-Michel and Thomas have taught me - yup, they were my two best French friends on the team, I love them to bits and we had such a laugh together in the office in that team. The kind of French they spoke to each other was far from grammatically perfect and it was informal and full of argots ... for example, did you know that "piaf" was a Parisian argot word for "sparrow"; after being taken up by the singer Edith Piaf, this meaning became well known in France and worldwide - but the proper word for sparrow in French is still moineau.

      If you were expecting me to write in a standard of French that was going to be formal and perfect, then perhaps you have misjudged the tone of this blog. As we say in S'pore, Limpeh likes to talk cock and Limpeh uses casual language to talk cock.

      Let's get back to English in part 2 ...

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    6. I don't expect English teachers to have perfect RP but here's why I am particularly cruel when it comes to English teachers in Singapore. If you were in any other profession - engineer, architect, nurse, estate agent, fund manager, chemist or fireman - the worst that can happen if you speak English really badly is that you make yourself look silly - it's no big deal. That is the worst case scenario. But when an English teacher walks into a classroom and conducts a lesson, the teacher has a big responsibility and if s/he teaches the children something wrong - then that's a whole class of 30-something kids walking away with the wrong information. Maybe they will meet another teacher who will undo the damage in the future, maybe they will figure it out for themselves but maybe they won't - that is why I would demand of a rather high standard for language teachers.

      Besides, there's also the issue of a quality of service. Parents are paying school fees for a certain quality of teaching that should meet a minimum standard - there has got to me some quality control here when you have paying customers (ie. the parents); it is easy for you to wax lyrical about the validity of local accents - but have you considered what Singaporean parents want? As paying customers, do they want their children to be taught standard English or S'porean English?

      My dad was a Chinese teacher all his life in Singapore but he had a super strong Malaysian accent - he had to teach hanyupinyin as part of his syllabus and he was so utterly SALAH in his hanyupinyin. My sister used to double check his pinyin in his lesson plans to make sure that he had written them down correctly - and boy, he would argue with her. He would tell her, 你错了,我的是正确的 - and then I would have to step in and take my sister's side and even the both of us couldn't convince him that he was wrong until we reached for the dictionary and even then, he was so stubborn he even said the dictionary was wrong. Aiyoh. Now can you appreciate why I think teachers should take this responsibility seriously?

      Regional accents: YES there are many regional accents in the UK but they code switch as well. I had 2 former colleagues who were from Liverpool and they would speak to each other in Scouse English - which was totally unintelligible to me. But when dealing with me or other clients at work, they spoke perfectly good standard English. Of course, not all Scousers could code switch effectively and some were incapable of standard English - but isn't this exactly the same situation in Singapore? The local variant of English vs Standard English. I never said that we should stamp out and eradicate Singlish - I am merely saying that students should be taught standard English at school so as to be able to code switch effectively. Ideally, I'd love to see a situation where we can have Singlish and standard English happily co-existing in Singapore with no conflict, with locals being able to pick and choose which to use to suit the occasion.

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  6. Hi LIFT,

    Thanks for raising this topic.
    Obviously many people have had much to comment at length here, in response.

    I actually teach English to students most of the week, most of the year.
    With several students taking the 'O' level English exam in the last year of its current format, at their request we just finished their oral exam practice, in time for the actual thing.

    I believe, as I suspect you do, that the best way to master a language is immersion.
    Completely live in the community that thinks, listens, speaks, reads and writes that dialect.


    In university, we learnt in our English major that usage is king.
    This means many people using the language wrongly end up MAKING IT RIGHT.

    One of my long-time peeves is the use of 'decimated', which has evolved from the 'correct' 'destroyed one in ten' to the now widespread and popular 'destroyed to a large extent'.
    Another of my favourites is that 'nice' originally meant 'stupid' — imagine how that feels for people like me constantly trying to be nice!

    Put this together in Singapore, and that means one immerses into Singapore English and picks up what so many of its native speakers, whether one is originally an RP or American or China speaker.
    If we want to change the way we use English every day in Singapore, then many, many of us must want to get together and sustain the challenge.

    That cannot be achieved by a few university academics, a few politicians or the otherwise minority intelligentsia.
    It must be a popular groundswell originating from that huge majority of proudly Singlish heartlanders, whom some snobs keep disdaining.

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  7. Hi Limpeh! Why don't you interview Alan Heah, seeing that he was an English major, and teaches English currently? He should be able to comment on the state of (esp. the teaching of) the language in Singapore, and if the standards are going up or indeed down as far as students and the general public are concerned, and what he thinks should be done to remedy the problems (you know, straight from the horse's mouth and all that). Cheers!

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    1. Hmmmm. I could, but it depends on Alan's availability.

      I'm up for it if Alan is.

      Though my first reaction is that it is hard to talk about such a topic as there will be a range of standards, given that there are so many schools, students and teachers in Singapore. There will be a spectrum of standards. Alan - are you interested?

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    2. Thank you, Anthea and LIFT, for considering my opinions.
      At the same time, as LIFT just pointed out, there is a range of standards, as well as of opinions, here in Singapore.
      Mine is but just a personal, idiosyncratic view.

      So no, I don't think highly enough of myself to be interviewed for a full-length blog post.
      I'm sure that if I am, I'll annoy many people no end, many who think they're far better than I am, so how dare I be so presumptuous! :-)

      High on the list of those who would hate me, would be those eminent experts in our Ministry of Education, as well as those brilliant minds who shape national policy on English! X-P
      If I ran a successful brand over here like Julia Gabriel or Lorna Whiston, perhaps I might feel differently, but I'm now just an insignificant part-time tuition centre teacher.

      At the same time, I'll try to answer all questions that LIFT may have in mind to plumb the topic, as long as my answers can help a little.
      And of course, I'll weigh in my small opinion here or elsewhere, now and then, whenever I feel strongly enough to respond personally.

      Hope you can understand how I feel about this, Anthea and LIFT.
      The world and cyberspace are already overfilled with too many people who think very highly of themselves, many with very good reasons to.
      I don't feel the urge to join them, because I have seen too much imperfection, and I'm very imperfect myself. :-)

      So ask away your questions, privately or here, and allow me to stay in this little corner here to respond with what I can.
      Thank you for the opportunities!

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    3. I'll think about it Alan - I wanna come up with a good angle and get you to answer ONE question, rather than try to get you to talk generally. It's all about creating the right angle before you can have a good article. Bear with me mate, I'll let you know, thanks.

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  8. @Peanut (re: your comments on 5 September 2012 21:09)

    Hello! You mentioned that the Americans and Englishmen you've interacted with or met remarked that Singaporeans sounded (spoke?) like children (three year olds?). Now on the surface, this sounds, diplomatically put, not very nice. But I'm curious to know if you probed further to find out the real reasons behind the said remark. No, I'm afraid the answer is not blindingly obvious to me, sorry (and I would rather not needlessly speculate). Thanks! :)

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  9. @Anthea

    I don't think they were making a blanket statement about ALL Singaporeans. As LIFT said, we have a range of accents. Having said that, quite a lot of Singaporeans use words that can sound child-like. For example, "I oso wan!", "Izzit?", "This one also can!", "Can, lah!", "Why you so liddat?"

    Perhaps this is because Mandarin is comprised of individual one-syllable words, and we carry the sounds over so our English sounds choppy (as opposed to another native tongue). Also, we do direct translations, which makes our English sound odd.

    I am not a linguist, so I cannot give you the correct terms for what I am hearing... or even to explain it eloquently, but we also say certain words that sound truncated, as if we can't pronounce the word. For example, when we say the word 'talk', it sounds like 'tok'.

    Shrug. Certainly the above applies to certain Singaporeans. Maybe this is more applicable to those of us who speak primarily Mandarin and are more 'Singlish'. Nonetheless, it does feel that there are a lot of us that fall under this 'category' (for lack of a better word)... enough to be significant... enough to not be able to dismiss them as an outlier group.

    Sorry if I have caused offense. I'm not without my own mistakes, obviously. Like LIFT, I just try to get better.

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    1. Thanks Peanut. Another common mistake I encounter amongst Singaporeans is the tendency to drop the last letter - so the word 'good' becomes more like 'goo' and the word 'fruit' because fru or even flu.

      I am not sure why Singaporeans do that - I don't think it takes more effort to say good instead of goo, but maybe it is because in Mandarin words tend to end either in a vowel sound "ni yao bu yao he ka fei ne?" (see? it all ends in a vowel) - and yes you have the exception of words that end with 'n' and 'ng' but that's it, you don't get hard consonant sounds at the end of most syllables like the word 'fruit' so "good fruit" become "goo fru" if the person is still in Mandarin mode.

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    2. Hi LIFT, this is lenition and it happens in every language with different groups of people all the time. Singaporeans do that because of language change and there are so many reasons why languages change over time. By the way, there is still a stop at the end of good and fruit so it's not yet lost. Also, if you look at the orthography among Singaporeans on the internet then you'll notice sometimes people write 'goot' and 'froot', indicating their pronunciation. If it's because of Mandarin, then why does Manglish (Singlish equivalent in Malaysia) do many of the same things that Singlish does?

      Peanut, they're speaking Singlish, not English. For many, especially young people, it's their mother tongue, are you going to call the speech of every native Singlish speaker childish? Singlish sounds choppy because it's syllable-timed, as opposed to English which is stress-timed. Spanish speakers can also sound choppy when they speak English (or Spanish for that matter), so do they also sound childish? I also don't see how the use of 'why you so liddat' makes one's speech childish. Could you please elaborate? I have many foreign friends who find that fascinating.

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    3. Oh yeah, I am aware that it does happen with other languages too - quite annoyingly, in Welsh as well. If it happens in English/Singlish, I am able to figure it out from the context as I am fluent enough to do that, but I am not fluent in Welsh and they often shorten words (beginnings and ends) in colloquial, informal speech and I'm like, urgh, if you pronounced the WHOLE word properly and clearly then I have a much higher chance of understanding it. Oh the frustrations of being a learner of a new language.

      I'm not sure if "childish" is the best word to describe the sound of Singlish ... "choppy" definitely and perhaps unrefined. I guess there are foreigners who don't realize the difference between Singlish and standard English - for those from Singapore, we do know exactly when to code-switch between the two. I love using my Singlish with my friends from Singapore - but it's fairly pointless for me to use that with non-Singaporeans who wouldn't understand it.

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    4. Okay, so they are speaking Singlish and not English... but so what? People in Singapore are perpetually speaking Singlish then. Does English even exist? Where is the line? Is our average joe a 50-50 mix between Singlish and English? There are people who can turn Singlish on and off, but how about those that can't and just sound Singlish all the time? Aye carumba, the slope is slippery, someone get me a rope.

      It sounds child-like to me in many instances, yes. But hey, that's just my two cents... sorry, my two 'cen'. I don't think Spanish english sounds choppy but perhaps you are right. Hey, I was only trying to find a reason for the Singaporean speech sounding so bad lest people say I'm not giving my fellow countrymen a break. Do you have a better reason? Even if not the choppiness of the speech causing the 'bad sound', it certainly does not help when combined with poor tenses, mispronunciations and the habit of leaving out key parts of words and sentences.

      Don't forget also that Singapore claims that it is bilingual, or at least it is supposed to be. It seems pretty obvious to me that we do like to make it known that we are an English-speaking country and English is our first language. I don't believe Spain does that, does it? So is our fluency only an aspiration rather than a fact? It cannot be so, since we use that as a key selling point in making our country look attractive to businesses. It certainly is a lot less 'forgivable' for us to speak poorly given that it's supposed to be our primary language. How can you compare us with those from countries that don't speak English as a first language?

      And hey, it's not just us of course. African American ghetto speak is definitely far from 'good English', and some parts of Ireland have accents that are notoriously hard to figure out (how about Brad Pitt's Pikey accent: http://youtu.be/4LJw6PAi5Q8)... but they all have their own flavor. Ours just happens to be... I don't know... uniquely Singaporean... and to me and some others, that means it sounds child-like (I think this is more accurate; it's child-like not childish, a misquote on my part).

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    5. Blame ah gong lah... hokkien got last letter one.

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    6. @Peanut

      Americans have a habit of tuning out when confronted with a foreign accent, according to my Filipino-American friend, and of course this does not mean all Americans do that.

      But I must admit I am surprised at your answer (although I too am not a linguist). Pronunciation per se has nothing to do with sounding childish. Therefore, I can only surmise that the people who made the comments have limited experience dealing with non-native speakers of English, and/or are also less aware of the various forms of spoken English worldwide or even of the "Globish" phenomenon.

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    7. I don't know, Peanut, childlike just didn't have much of a negative connotation to me (innocence, meekness) and so I must have unconsciously defaulted to childish.

      Choppiness, poor tenses, mispronunciations, leaving out key parts of words and sentences are features of Singlish which you've quite unfairly described from an English perspective. From a linguistics perspective, Singlish is a language in its own right and its phonology would be described as syllable-timed (as opposed to choppiness) and, I would add, tonal. In terms of grammar, the lack of inflection doesn't mean tenses aren't marked in some way if it's not already known by context etc. The reason why I'm saying all this is because we're talking about a different language here and you're judging it based on the standards of another. Sure, there may be superficial similarities in vocabulary as with creole based languages but dig deeper and they become very different.

      To quickly respond to your first paragraph, of course you can attempt to draw a line - the mesolect (your mix) which is what most people would be speaking would still be far from the acrolect. Like LIFT, I think most Singaporeans know when to code-switch. If there are differences in degree then isn't that a matter of instruction? Nevertheless, it's not a slippery slope, languages just happen to be spectrums.

      Ok, having established that Singlish is another language, so in addition to your American friend you too do think Singlish is childlike in a bad way. You have not shown how Singlish sounds like something a child (even an English speaking one) would speak so is this purely aesthetic? In that case we have to agree to disagree. I along with many others find Singlish charming.

      I was using Spanish speakers of English to show that "choppiness" was not a childlike quality. You've taken it out of context.

      To address your next point, English never was our first language. It's our working language (certainly as a written language), a language of instruction, but not exactly what's spoken in most homes is it? That's more like Singlish, which I think is the mother tongue of most younger Singaporeans, many of whom are in the workforce now. Despite that, I'm sure those who need to, having already been chosen for such a job, can speak English competently albeit with a Singaporean accent. So I'd like to know as I'm young, in your experience, is Singapore English, not Singlish, mind you, intelligible to other speakers of English? Also, do you think that most working adults in Singapore are unable to speak Singapore English?

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    8. (Hmmm....for reasons unknown, the comments after those of Tien Yew's did not pop up on my screen when I posted my reply, and so here's the follow up...)

      @Peanut, as I remarked to Limpeh earlier (way above), language is an emotive issue. Childish or childlike, it conveys a disdain for the speaker. You honestly cannot make a statement like that and not expect to be questioned, Singaporean or not. If truth be told, if someone were to remark the same to me, I would ask why, and the context which gave rise to the said remark. Telling someone their accent is hard to decipher is one thing, telling them they speak gibberish or like an immature person is another. It is not a Singaporean issue, it is a human issue.

      Now Tien Yew, I suspect, is speaking from the view point of sociolinguists (as did it seem a couple of others earlier) who do tend to view things differently. And he would therefore be able to comment on the status of Singlish, and how it is viewed by linguists.

      As for the standard of English being a competitive advantage, again, perhaps I missed the memo, but any competitive advantage that comes with speaking English is against other non-English speaking countries (I believe Singapore is known as a country where English is widely understood and widely spoken).

      Clearly in highly skilled/professional/managerial jobs, I would assume the standard is on-par (or the difference insignificant) when compared to other English speaking countries (unless you have information to the contrary). Now, as anyone knows, English language skills alone do not influence a company to move or set up office in a particular country (case in point: Switzerland). So even if Singapore were to transform itself to a non English speaking country tomorrow, I dare say a substantial portion of businesses will stay put.

      Now, there's nothing wrong in aiming to speak a language as it is spoken, and allowing for regional variances and quirks at the same time which do not alter the DNA of the language (makes sense?). Blanket statements along the lines of "your English sucks" obviously do not cut the mustard. What is the solution? Maybe "make yourself understood". I don't know. But what is known for sure is Singlish is not understood by outsiders, period - a universal truth that most Singaporeans do acknowledge. So perhaps that's the starting point?

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  10. Hi Limpeh, I'd like to draw to your attention a slight typo you made in 2) where you said:

    "Besides, Singaporean parents should realize that speak English well is not about acquiring an Angmoh accent, it is simply sounding educated and intelligent, like a person who understands the language s/he is speaking - rather than being an inarticulate person who is struggling to get the right words out."

    Perhaps you meant: Besides, Singaporean parents should realise that *speaking* English well is not about acquiring an Angmoh accent...

    That aside, I must say that I agree with your harsh but positive stance on English-teaching/correction that sits very well with my "continuous self-improvement" principle (wah say...ha ha). Anyway, your stern and honest method of dealing with your nephew's grasp of English is something that I wish I could've had when I was younger. Because the people around me (parents, older sibiling and teachers alike) failed to point out errors with my English and other subjects; and in addition, were contented with my "so-so" results, I never realised my fatal flaws, nor did I desire to improve since I wasn't the "most jialat". Now, I struggle with what I term as an "average jane" syndrome... So yes, I fully agree with you when you mentioned that socio-environmental factors play a huge role in influencing language acquisition/grasp.

    However, while language acquisition is one thing, language mastery is another. Don't get me wrong, I still share your belief that socio-environmental factors play a huge role in influencing people's grasp of language, but I don't think that it is the only umbrella of factors that influences language grasp. I think that the biological capacity to grasp languages varies from person to person and it is pointless, not to mention "guofen" at times, to make a child struggle beyond his/her "limits". I admit that I'm no scientist and I've got no hard evidence to back this up, but sometimes... what you have, you have; what you don't, you dont. Besides, people's interest vary from one field to another too! Language and the arts are just not some people's passion and forte, and we should be more respectful and tolerant (I refuse to use 'forgiving') towards them.

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    1. Hi Sarah, firstly, thanks for recognizing that the mistake was a typo - I have had people who prefer to assume that such typos are a sign of my stupidity and seize on each typo to insult and belittle me. I have corrected that typo.

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  11. Hi Limpeh,

    LOL, LOL, LOL... First up, the video you posted with the English teacher at the awards thingy... yeah, I would say she speaks pretty much proper English WITH a Singaporean accent. At least she did not make many outwardly wrong grammatical mistakes. I'd say at the minimum, teachers (be it English teachers, Science teachers, Math teachers...) should by right be able to speak proper/standard English like the teacher in the video, and not necessarily speak English with an American or British accent.

    I was laughing at the part where you said parents who don't speak proper English themselves should refrain from speaking broken English to their kids. I sort of agree with you. One other hilarious phenomenon I have observed is that there are Singaporean-Chinese who looooove to respond in Singlish or EngRish when interviewed by Channel 8 (Chinese) news. I mean, what the heck? Of course, they have a choice to respond in whatever language suits them but some of these people speak horrendous, spine-crinching EngRish and if they were interviewed by a Chinese news station and the segment is meant to be aired for Chinese viewers, why can't they just respond in Mandarin?

    I agree with Simon that there's quite a handful of Singaporeans who speak neither English nor Mandarin properly. It is definitely a shame. We'd love to think that we have a high-performing dual-language education system but this system has succeeded for a few and failed for the masses, I feel...

    You did not mention immersion programs and teaching assistants? We could possibly look into tweaking the current system by introducing (compulsory) overseas immersion language programs throughout all stages of primary and secondary school? Hiring teaching assistants from countries like USA, UK, etc... Of course, these should be implemented in addition to core changes like improving the standard of English amongst current and future teachers.

    Putting an accent on oral exams is also a fantastic idea. I lived in Seoul for two years. One thing about the Koreans is that there are plenty of English language institutions and a large number of children attend supplementary English schools. English is a compulsory second language subject in schools (can't remember from which grade though). But having been in Seoul for two years (though it is not a very long stint, I must agree), I have to say, there are not many Koreans who are willing to speak English... I have a Korean friend who's an English teacher. She runs her own English tuition classes at home. She once showed me a mock English exam paper she had pulled out from some assessment book for her students who were doing university entry exams. I was totally shocked! The sentences were loooooong and contained heaps of conjunctions and the students had to pick out errors in the sentences and make corrections. I was shocked because no one would really ever speak (or write) like that... and I was flabbergasted by (1) the level of (written) English the students are meant to be have... and (2) the fact that I could hardly ever find Koreans who are willing (or capable) of conversing with me in English... So yeah, I do think oral exams should hold more weight when it comes to English language acquisition...

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  12. Hi Limpeh

    Part 2 of my comment...

    One question regarding parents speaking to their kids in different languages... My husband and I communicate solely in French (he's French and I'm Singaporean-Chinese). We are expecting our first child soon and we would like to have our child learn English, French and Mandarin. We will be moving back to France shortly after the birth of our child, meaning our child would be exposed to a French environment. I was thinking if there's a tried-and-tested or at least, logical way to speak to or teach our child. My husband will no doubt speak only in French. I have a choice of English and Mandarin. I know of a German-Singaporean couple who reside in Germany with their son. The German husband speaks to the child only in German and the Singaporean wife speaks to the child only in Mandarin as they believe that the child would eventually pick up English at school. This is potentially one way of doing things but I also have another friend with two kids who said her son's principal at the Montessori school in Beijing said parents should be able to speak to their kids in whatever languages they are comfortable in, AS LONG AS they say a sentence completely in one language (instead of mixing grammars and words from different languages) because according to this principal, such is the way of the world and the child should, in her opinion, learn and be exposed to the myriad of languages the parents and the world speak. According to the principal, children are very capable of picking out and deciphering one language from another if taught this way...

    Do you have any thoughts about this? How should mixed couples handle this in your opinion? Would love to hear what you have to say...

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    1. OK, here we go. It boils down to 4 factors.

      1. How much time and effort the learner is willing to dedicate to learning the language
      2. How rich the learner is - can you pay for lessons, extra tuition, books etc.
      3. How talented the learner is with languages - some people have a gift, others don't.
      4. Is the learner already surrounded by people who speak English well?

      I hate to say this, but the vast majority of mixed-kids I have encountered in Europe do not speak any Chinese at all, or speak very, very little. They will always favour the European language over Chinese as Chinese is just so bloody difficult. But then again ... I say the parents' role is limited at the end of the day.

      I have a dad who doesn't speak any English (Hakka, Cantonese, Hokkien, Mandarin and Malay) and a mother who speaks Singlish, Malay and Hokkien (she doesn't speak any Mandarin) - and somehow I end up as a first-language English speaker, my second language is French (and neither Mandarin nor Hokkien) and my third language is Mandarin. My 4th languages are Spanish and Welsh (can't decide which is more fluent, but I am competent in both) ... I achieved all that with my European languages with zero help from my parents and most interestingly, mostly whilst I was in Europe in the last 15 years. My Mandarin has slipped from 2nd to 3rd place in my list of fluent languages and may slip further as I simply don't use it any more in Europe whilst I do use my European languages more.

      The only practical way is to give your child immersion - send him/her away to China for a few months at a time in a place where they speak no English; otherwise your child will probably never gain more than a basic grasp of Mandarin in France. Where will you be in France? I lived in Bretagne and Paris back in the 1990s and worked in a French company for 8 years - that's why my French is like so much better than my Mandarin today.

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  13. Hi Limpeh

    Responding to your private response to my comment (I couldn't find the post I made published here...).

    Thanks for your input.

    First things first. I do not expect my child to be completely fluent in all three languages--French, English and Mandarin, even though that would be good. What you suggested I'd imagine is more for the later stages of the kid's life and I'd do my best to ensure she gets the right amount of training and immersion. The main objective my husband and I would like to achieve is to expose our kid to the languages we speak, to hopefully get her interested enough to want to further her studies in these languages, out of her own will (*cross fingers*). Of course, with Mandarin, she will also be able to converse with my mum.

    I do agree Chinese is a difficult language in general. It is true to a certain extent. Writing and reading would be extremely hard for speakers of most languages. BUT grammar is super easy! So, learning to speak would be relatively easy, no verb conjugations, etc.

    I don't know if it's more of a will thing or immersion, really. You mentioned you had spent 8 years in Bretagne and Paris and hence you speak French better than Mandarin for instance. But you did spend about 21 years--which is substantially more--in Singapore, conversing with your folks in Mandarin. Or maybe, it's the fact that Singaporeans' standard of Mandarin is really not quite there LOL.

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    1. Hi - because of the number of comments left on this article, there is a "LOAD MORE" hyperlink when you get to the end of the first set of comments, then you click on "LOAD MORE" then you will find your comments.

      I agree that it is important for your child to choose - not everyone is naturally good with languages, some obviously have a gift for languages, others don't and it's not something you can figure out till your child is older. I never learnt Hakka so I always had to converse with my Malaysian grandma (my dad's mum) in Malay - which limited our conversations and my dad wasn't particularly fussed about teaching me Hakka.

      So perhaps, if all you really want is for your daughter to speak to your mum (as opposed to write/read Chinese), then yeah that should be easy enough, I hope.

      Ah, I worked for a French company for 8 years - but it was a French company in London: French boss, French team , French-speaking people only, but the office is in London. As for my Mandarin ... it's rusty. I have not used it much since 1997 and it's gone rusty. I don't have the same problem with languages I use more often. Anyway, I love telling my dad that my French is better than my Chinese, just to wind him up - but that's another story for another day.

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    2. Yeah, so in a nutshell, would you still say it is OK (i.e. not too confusing) if we speak to our child in all three languages from the get-go, of course, complete sentences in one language at a time (no mixing of grammars and words)? OR is it perhaps more conducive to do a one-language-per-parent thing whereby my husband to speaks just French to our kid, and me, just English or Mandarin?

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    3. Exactly. Just go for it - the child will figure it out. The key thing is not to panic the moment the child mixes the languages - I grew up in Singapore speaking a mix of Hokkien-Malay-Mandarin-Singlish and it's not like my brain went KABOOM and exploded every time I mixed my languages up - heck, that's what we do all the time in Singapore, it's perfectly normal. If you feel concerned, then just correct your child each time s/he speaks in a mixed-language sentence, but don't panic.

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    4. LOL... yeah, thanks again for your thoughts on this. Appreciate it!

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  14. I think another factor is their entertainment. I mean have you seen Mat Yoyo? The English host has horrible English, very pretentious. As it is on TV, it could be easily picked up by kids.

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  15. The points you make are relevant and true however, as a linguistics student, I can tell you that the Singaporean pronunciation of certain words being different from say, how an American would pronounce them does not make the Singaporean pronunciation wrong in any linguistic sense.

    Just as Americans pronouncing some words differently compared to the English does not make the American pronunciation wrong per se, the Singaporean pronunciation is not wrong either. In fact, even in America, or the UK, there are different pronunciations for the same words depending on the area where you are from.

    Yes, it may indeed sound different and 'weird' to those not from Singapore however, it certainly does not make it any 'less' or 'wrong'. It is simply a regional difference in the pronunciation of certain letters, linguistically speaking that is.

    However, I do see your point and I certainly agree that if we do want the children to be able to speak with the pronunciation, standard within a certain other country, we will require the teachers to be able to speak in the expected way.

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    1. Communication goes a lot further than just pronunciation. Effective communication is about engaging the other party, showing empathy, being able to get them interested in what you have to say. I'm thinking of German comedian Henning Wehn who speaks with a strong German accent in English but he is absolutely hilarious and a joy to listen to. And then thee are English people who may have perfect pronunciation but can be useless at communication because they lack the basic soft skills to relate to others. So you're really barking up the wrong tree by focusing so much on pronunciation.

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