Wednesday, 1 February 2023

Norwegian notes: some thoughts from Stavanger

Hi guys, I've just returned from a long weekend in Stavanger in Norway and I'd like to compile some notes on my experiences there. This is my second trip to Norway, having visited Oslo way back in 1998. It was a hideously expensive city then and Norway is just as expensive 25 years later (thankfully I am no longer a poor student as I was back in 1998 and can afford Norway these days). Don't forget you can see all my photos and videos from this trip on my Instagram of course. So here is a quick post from me reflecting on some of the memorable experiences from this short trip to Norway. 

1. Why you should go to Norway

Well it is an interesting country to visit, the nature there is also absolutely stunning. The point about traveling is to see something different, experience something that you don't normally get at home and Norway will definitely have plenty to offer in that department. The capital city Oslo is really the only big city in Norway with a population of just over a million but the rest of the cities have roughly between 100,000 to 250,000 - they would a relatively small city center and sprawling suburbs. The center of Stavanger was so small that I explored all of it in one day and did it all on foot. So if you are hoping to see stunning European cities with loads of historical monuments like Rome, Madrid and Athens - then no, Norway is not for you. But if you already live in a big city and are looking to escape to the majestic Norwegian countryside for a taste of outdoors adventure, then definitely, Norway wouldn't disappoint at all in that department. Norway's population density is extremely low (ranked 215 out of 248) in the world,  The population of Norway is slightly smaller than that of Singapore (5.5 million vs 5.9 million) but Norway is immense (529 times larger than Singapore): once you step outside the urban areas, you just see rolling hills, mountains, forests, lakes, beaches, fjords and that beautiful Norwegian wood landscape that goes on forever. Without a huge population stressing out the land, the nature is kept pristine and thus the air is incredibly fresh, the water is so clean and it makes it such a lovely escape for us city dwellers. 

2. Norway is a frightfully expensive holiday destination

Ouch, Norway is one of the world's most expensive holiday destinations for two main reasons: firstly, everyone is rich there, so even the guy getting you your coffee in the 7-Eleven speaks English fluently and commands a decent salary. The social contract is that people are paid very high salaries but when you want to buy anything, prices are high - but hey, the locals on high salaries can afford those high prices and it is only foreign tourists who are stung by those high Norwegian standards. Thanks to their oil wealth, the government is super rich and can afford to pay civil servants like nurses and teachers a ridiculously high salary compared to their peers in countries like France and the UK. So a Norwegian bus driver or postman can go to a country like Vietnam, Georgia or Sri Lanka and live like royalty, despite having an ordinary working class job. Secondly, the local currency: the Norwegian Kroner is extremely strong so that just adds another level of pain to the tourists in Norway. I suppose the way I dealt with it was, oh well I'm already here so I'm just going to bite the bullet, spend the money and have a great holiday without worrying about how much I have spent. I did some quick calculations: I spent about the same amount of money for a long weekend in Stavanger as I did traveling for one week in early January in Northern Italy - that's Italy I'm comparing it to, not Turkey, Morocco or Cambodia. There are of course young people who come backpacking in Norway who stay in the cheapest youth hostels and I'm sure they have a good time there regardless, but seriously, if you're after a budget option for your holiday, avoid Norway. Even neighbouring Sweden and Finland are both so much cheaper and more affordable compared to Norway, it's just that they tend to be a lot more flat and thus you just don't get the kind of stunning mountains and fjords that Norway is famous for. 

3. Trying to eat whale meat in Norway

This is a very controversial topic but whale meat is banned in most of the world except three countries: Japan, Iceland and of course, Norway. I have had whale meat in Iceland before and it had the texture of beef but there was a distinctive fishiness to it. So in the spirit of doing things that I can't normally do at home, I was looking for whale meat in Stavanger but my husband was appalled by my wish to consume whale meat even if it was totally legal in Norway. So we spoke to our AirBNB host who was a huge fan of whale meat, but even he said it was hard to find - it has to be fresh and so you are hoping for one of the local fishing fleets to have caught a whale very recently; otherwise it's not like you can walk into the local supermarket and expect to find whale steak there. He suggested a few restaurants in town but none of them had any whale on the menu. I then asked my hiking guide where I could get whale meat and he was like, "no I'd never eat whale, it's against my principles even if it is legal here in Norway, so I am afraid I can't help you, I have no idea. Actually a lot of Norwegians refuse to eat whale meat even if it is legal here." I then turned to my second choice: trying to eat reindeer, elk or moose meat, but once again, total fail. The only thing I found was a massive elk roast in the freezer section of a supermarket and that looked big enough to serve a family of five (and it was very expensive as well). In the end, we ate normal meats: lamb, prawns, pork, salmon, beef and chicken whilst we were in Norway and didn't manage to get anything exotic this time which is a shame, as I normally fare better in this department when I'm in Northern Europe. 

4. What time of the year to go

There are two key considerations: the length of the day along with the temperature. Thus in winter, the days are very short (extremely so in the North) and it can get quite cold (especially in the far North). Whilst in the summer, the days are very long (with some areas in the North experiencing 24 hours daylight hours at the peak of summer) and it is somewhat warmer for those of you afraid of the cold weather.  The longer days have far more of an impact on us because even if say the night is four or five hours long, we would tend to be asleep during that time so it would feel like we are experiencing 24 hours daylight even if that's clearly not the case. But in the winter when the days are five hours long, it does feel like the nights are especially long when it gets dark early in the afternoon and it kinda takes you by surprise as you'll be thinking, "but wait, I've just had lunch, why is the sun already setting?" The further North you are, the more extreme this becomes - when I was in Stavanager, the sun rose at about 9 am and set at 4:30 pm in the afternoon, which wasn't too bad for late January. But Southern Norway where the major cities of Oslo, Bergen and Stavanger are located has a relatively mild climate comparable to Northern Scotland. Hence you are far more likely to find great bargains in the winter months and the most popular tourist attractions are usually deserted - take Pulpit Rock for example, in the summer months, about 3,000 tourists climb it everyday, even more when the weather is good. It can get extreme congested and your path will be blocked by tourists taking selfies. Whereas when I climbed it in January, there were only a handful of climbers there and when we got to the top, we had the whole place to ourselves: that was just me, my husband and our guide having a picnic at the top of Pulpit Rock, it was quite foggy then but it was a surreal experience.

5. Great service but at what cost? 

You can speak English with anyone in Norway from the bus driver to the cashier at the supermarket. 90% of Norway's population speaks English and you have to compare that number to the US where it is just 95.5% and the UK which is at 98.3%. In Canada, that figure falls down to 83% and so Norway is way up there with countries like Sweden (89%), Denmark (86%), Netherlands (91%) and Iceland (98%)  where the vast majority of the population speak English fluently. I tried to speak to the bus driver in Norwegian and he just replied in perfect English - you'll probably need to find the elderly in very rural communities who didn't get a modern education to find anyone who doesn't speak English to a very high standard in Norway. The Norwegian education system is fantastic and very well funded by a government with deep pockets, but it does create a different problem: my hiking guide at Pulpit Rock has a masters degree and speaks five languages. I did think, "you're over qualified for this job, I don't need someone as qualified as you to lead me up the mountain. I just need someone who speaks English and knows the route well, yet you have a masters degree and I can't help but feel like I am paying for so much for this service because you've invested this much in your education, most of which is irrelevant to climbing the mountain." So if you got a guide to climb a mountain in a place like Nepal, that guide would know the route very well, have a basic grasp of English but just wouldn't have a degree and thus would be a lot cheaper. Don't get me wrong, I had a great time interacting with my guide and had some fascinating conversations with him whilst climbing that mountain - but in Norway, there is only the premium, luxury option. You don't get a cheaper, more basic or "economical" option when it comes to this kind of services as most Norwegians are so incredibly well educated. 

6. Taking a closer look at the 'socialist' Norway model

Perhaps a good reason to visit Norway is to see for yourself just how the Norway model works - after all, Norway is one of the richest countries in the world. It is extremely safe, the education system is not only excellent but funded by the government that means Norwegians don't have to pay huge tuition fees to get their degrees (unlike say in the UK or US). The environment is pristine, public transport works well and it is one of the safest countries in the world. On top of that, it has one of the world's biggest sovereign wealth funds and the Norwegians generally have good faith in their government (in sharp contrast to the UK where we simply don't trust our government). The health service is robust and Norway has one of the world's shortest working hours as they are so ridiculously rich. The downsides of living in this perfect model is that prices and taxes are very high - however the income tax rates in Denmark and Sweden are even higher as Norway still has plenty of oil wealth to soften the blow, so the government can dip into some of that oil wealth for public spending without relying entirely on taxes. If these issues fascinate you, then it is definitely worth visiting Norway to see how a different social model works and see for yourself what life in Norway is like. In London, there are so many poor people, even homeless people in the streets but in Norway, the government is rich enough to provide for the poorest of the poor in society so they are never reduced to begging in the streets. Rather than just shaking our heads at the problems that our inept governments can't solve, a trip to Norway would leave you thinking, "well if they can solve all of these problems in Norway and get it right, what is wrong with us? Why are we so incompetent and stupid compared to the Norwegians?" 

7. Is the oil wealth well spent though - are things really that perfect? 

Of course the cynic would say, all this is only possible because of Norway's incredible oil wealth and the government there isn't doing enough to use that wealth to improve the life of the people there. For example, they could subsidize public transport to encourage people out of their cars and take the bus instead. A short ride from Stavanger City center to the airport (a journey which takes about 25 minutes) costs 180 NOK ( US$18, £14.64 or 23.70 SGD). The equivalent bus ride in London would have cost just £1.65 (US$2, 2.67 SGD or 20.30 NOK). If you want to give your bus drivers generous salaries, well then that's your choice but why are the bus tickets so freaking expensive then? It just doesn't make sense that the bus tickets were that expensive - if you have already invested so much in your public transport system by paying your bus drivers so generously, it would make sense to price the tickets in a way to maximize the number of passengers on the bus. After all, that 17:25 bus from Stavanger city bus terminal to the airport is going to make that journey whether you have just two passengers or if that bus was completely full. Thus Norwegians aren't really getting such a great deal if the government simply isn't subsidizing enough. Thus let's compare this to Dubai where there is also a lot of oil wealth, but the people don't even pay any income taxes; costs are kept low in Dubai by tapping into this endless supply of cheap migrant workers from poorer countries but that's not done in Norway. A bus driver in Dubai is probably a migrant worker from India or Pakistan being paid peanuts (hence the reasonably priced bus tickets there) but in Norway, your typical bus driver is a white local with a degree and paid a really high salary, hence the ridiculously expensive tickets. So at this point, even I think there are definitely rather big flaws in this Norwegian model of socialism. 

8. More diverse than you might think

So if the bus drivers are white local Norwegians, you might get the impression that Norway is mostly white, right? But actually, Norway is extremely diverse with white Norwegians accounting for only about 75% of the population and migrants for the other quarter but that can include white migrants from other parts of Europe like Poland and Estonia who do not look any different from the white locals. But even just walking around Stavanger, you will plenty of black and Asian people. There are two main reasons why Norway is so diverse: firstly, there are plenty of jobs in the oil and gas industry that cannot be filled with the local workforce and thus plenty of migrant workers come to Norway to do those jobs (and they bring their families with them). Secondly, Norway has always been welcoming to refugees and asylum seekers so some refugees turn to Norway, knowing that this is a very hospitable country to refugees fleeing persecution whilst other Southern European countries, like Italy and Greece simply do not have the means to accommodate any more refugees. 

9. One little bit of Norway vs the grand tour of Norway

Norway is absolutlely massive, the longest internal flight you can take in Norway is from Oslo to Longyearbyen and that takes about 3 hours - that's like flying from London to St Petersburg. That has mostly got to do with the shape of Norway, which is not as extreme as Chile but it is a very long country that runs along the northern coast of Scandinavia. To drive from Kistiansand in the south to Kirkenes in the north would be a journey of 2,150 km and it would take you 27 hours to drive that distance (but what an epic road trip that would be). Hence when you plan your trip to Norway, you have to decide if you're just going to see one city, one region or spend a good few weeks traveling the length and breadth of the whole country. Unless you have some specific interest in Norway, I would recommend either simply seeing one city like Oslo or if you do have two weeks, then spread it out by traveling to other European cities - Oslo is a great transport hub with plenty of budget airlines connecting you to far cheaper cities in Europe like Gdansk, Riga, Lisbon and Budapest given how expensive Norway can be, so Norway can be just one stop in your grand tour of several European countries. 

10. How to avoid spending 10 NOK every time you need the toilet

One of my pet hates are countries where you have to pay to use a public toilet - I think public toilets should be free and it is a good investment by the government. It is a vital service to the population and it will prevent public urination that will leave alleyways smelling so bad. Cities like Singapore, Dubai, Hong Kong and even London are pretty good when it comes to free public toilet but Europe is terrible when it comes to the provision of free public toilet. In places like France or Italy, you usually have to pay about 50 euro cents to use a public toilet but in Norway, the standard fee is 10 NOK (about US$1) which is expensive even compared to other European countries! Even if you go to a relatively nice mall with expensive boutiques, you still have to pay to use a toilet in Norway. This is ridiculous as the government of Norway is so freaking rich, why do they feel the need to cover the costs of providing public toilets when it really should be seen as a public good like street lighting? Anyway, if you don't want to pay 10 NOK to use a public toilet, there are two ways around it. The first thing to do is to find a nice hotel and you will often find a public toilet in the lobby - hotel lobbies are usually very public places where people come and go so nobody is going to check if you're actually a guest at the hotel. Thankfully those toilets are always free. Secondly, you can always find a public building like a library or a local tax office, just walk right on in and use the toilets there - these will be free as well. As to why a toilet is free in the local library but not the train station in Norway, I don't know but be assured that if you can hold on, you're never too far from a free toilet!

Okay guys, that's it from me on this topic, please do let me know your thoughts about Norway. Many thanks for reading. 

24 comments:

  1. I don't think I would take issue with everything in Norway being expensive if everyone can afford it. The only reason why things are cheap in the UK is because poor migrant workers work in the farms and other factories. Who does this really benefit except to increase consumerism? I guess in Norway the social contract is people cannot consume as much clothes, takeout, electronics, etc., but are better taken care of in terms of essentials of housing, education, and healthcare. Also nature is free to experience, Oslo has many parks. I remember when I was visiting Boston, I walked to MIT from my Airbnb and passed by a bus stop very close by where a homeless person asked me for breakfast. That surprised me because MIT is an extremely rich university with a very luxurious campus. But then again, even in my own university, we have a park right across the street where homeless people sleep and also beg students for money. Sure things are cheaper in the US, but there is a lot more income inequality and many basic needs of a sizable population aren't met. I even talked to an MIT MBA student who said he couldn't bring his wife and 4 year old daughter to Boston because vouchers for public preschool are given out on a lottery basis, and he can't afford to pay for it out of pocket if his daughter doesn't win. One could argue maybe he shouldn't have had a kid before doing an MBA, or shouldn't do an MBA after having a kid (it's MIT, he's definitely paying similar to what Harvard charges, which is also close by), but in Norway I don't think that would be an issue. I think they have universal pre-K and almost everyone has a free masters.

    Lol, you visited a socialist utopia over the weekend while I visited a very unequal city. Not that my own city isn't unequal, I just don't meet and talk to much people outside my bubble because I'm busy and working.

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    1. Well to give you a further idea of how expensive things are in Norway, I went to the supermarket and I'll give you prices in GBP to compare as that was what I noted down in my head. 1 kg of carrots = £2.20 in Norway whilst in the UK, it is between £0.45 to £0.50 so the carrots are at least 4 times more expensive but why? That's because you have to account for the salaries of the supermarket staff - your average Norwegian supermarket cashier is paid a lot more than your average British supermarket staff. Then there's the lorry driver who brought the carrots from the warehouse to that supermarket and all the people who work in the supply chain for example - so the price we pay for the carrots reflect all those processes rather than the carrot itself as that is a rather low value, common vegetable. This then begs the question, should the price of the carrots reflect the higher costs associated with paying everyone in the supply chain a decent salary or should the government subsidize the cost of basic food items like carrots given that the Norwegian government is very rich and surely subsidizing basic food items like fresh vegetables is a noble cause? You say Norway is a socialist utopia, but carrots are freaking expensive (I'm not trying to get the finest cut of salmon or a whale steak, just some basic carrots), bus journeys cost about 11 times the price we pay in London and it is USD$1 to visit the toilet. IMHO, a true socialist utopia would take care of the poor by keeping those prices more reasonable.

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    2. Put it this way Alex, remember the big Mac index you talked about once? It's not so much the price of something that matters, but whether the average person can afford it. The average person in the UK may be able to afford carrots easily, but not housing and education or even childcare. In the UK I hear a lot of working single mother's complain they can't afford childcare so they can't go to work full time and have to work part-time instead. I'm just saying even if carrots are more expensive, the average Norwegian would save money on other expenses(college is free) so that the carrots would be more affordable. I mean if my rent in Norway was half what it was in the UK, I'd complain less about carrots being 4x as expensive because food costs are typically less than rent costs.

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    3. I get your point that you think the prices being more expensive to increase wages mean it is still unaffordable for the poor. That's a frequent argument that right-wing capitalists use against raising the minimum wage, that prices will just increase to compensate. Prices only really increase if there really isn't enough food for everyone even if you pay everyone more. Otherwise, it's simply a monetary redistribution from the rich to the poor so everyone can afford food, as the rich people will have less, but the poor people will be less poor.

      Btw, regarding bus prices, although a single journey costs a lot, a 30-day pass doesn't seem too bad according to this website:
      https://thenorwayguide.com/ticket-prices-for-public-transportation-in-oslo/

      It's only around $80 usd/month for the 30 day pass for students, which is reasonable for residents. So I guess the single ticket you buy when you hop on the bus is super expensive only because they want to fleece wealthy tourists haha.

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    4. Two points on prices: firstly, I told my Canadian friend this carrot situation yesterday and she pointed out that she came from the far north of Canada where carrots are super expensive because they would have had an awfully long journey from a much warmer place (Mexico perhaps) to get to northern Canada, so those carrots have plenty of air miles or at least the price you pay would reflect that journey rather than the cost of growing it in the first place as it must be fairly cheap to grow carrots in Mexico. But of course, it's not just carrots in that situation - walk into any grocery store or supermarket in northern Canada and the prices are shocking for everything. The situation in Norway could have an element to that, given that they don't have much of a local farming sector and they like consuming foods like avocados and oranges grown in warmer climates.

      I actually saved money on my bus ticket as I did my research, went online and bought an advanced online saver e-ticket which was about 50% what the person who simply got on the bus at the bus stop at the airport and said to the bus driver "how much does it cost to get into the city center?" There's an app as well for the bus service - it's all extremely high tech and they punish people who wanna use cash to buy a paper ticket, slows the journey down for everyone if there are people fumbling with cash when boarding the bus, buying a ticket!

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    5. Ahh okay. I heard the same is true in many countries which have to import everything they consume. But I suppose rent is really low there because nobody wants to live in the middle of nowhere haha.

      Oh yeah nowadays almost nobody buys a paper ticket. Gotta love how apps have transformed society. It does slow down the bus if someone is fumbling with coins and counting exact change haha.

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    6. Oh yeah that's why New Zealand and Iceland were two of the most expensive places I've visited, because of their isolation. You will get good value for money for your rent in Norway due to the very low population density. But then again, you win in some departments you lose in others - my Canadian friend was like, sure rent is super low in rural Canada, you can have a big house on land that costs so little. But if you want to visit the cinema, you drive over an hour to get to the nearest cinema. You wanna visit the supermarket, it is a 45 minutes drive to the nearest decent supermarket - so that's all time and money you spend on petrol + travel. Compared to London, I can walk to my nearest supermarket and cinema in my neribourhood. Oh when I was in the UAE, you couldn't buy a paper ticket on the bus, you had to either get a smart card or use an app. I was surprised in Norway they accepted cash on the bus, but you're discouraged from doing that as the cash price is much higher than the online e-ticket price.

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    7. So how affordable would you say Norway is if you look at rent and other factors as well? Yeah I love big cities for their public transport and convenience, it's just that everyone else likes that too which pushes up the price of rent. The only feasible way to live in big convenient cities is to be a high earner in finance or tech. For everyone else, there needs to be a system of subsidized housing or they have to go live in the countryside which is 45 min away from everything else.

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    8. Well out of curiousity, I had a look at an estate agent's website for the area around Stavanger, so for a massive 4 bedroom house that comes with a huge garden, it is approximately £80,000 which is nothing as the equivalent in central London would have a price tag closer to £4 or £5 million. So property is extremely cheap given how sparsely populated Norway is. Having said that, this house I looked at on the website is in the middle of nowhere and if you want say a nice apartment in the middle of Oslo, the price goes up but still, it remains cheaper than London. The population of Oslo is 1 million whilst the whole of Norway is just 5.4 million, whereas you have like 10 million people in London crammed into a small area. But hey at least our public transport and carrots are a lot cheaper than in Norway. I think it really depends on the individual - are you happy to work from home then walk the dogs in the beautiful countryside? Or do you like the excitement of living in the middle of a big city?

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    9. So would you say a working class person has a better chance of social mobility being born in London or Oslo? People say there are other factors like racism to consider, as a majority of poor Norwegians are refugees or the kids of refugees. But just comparing a poor white person in London vs a poor white person in Oslo would be less complicated.

      Btw my dad worked in oil and gas and he also visited Norway once for north sea oil drilling. He said everything was so expensive like you said.

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    10. Well, a working class person has the best chance of social mobility in Norway (compared to anywhere else like the US or UK) because of their socialist model which gives poor people free access to education that allows them to improve their chances in life. But of course, just because the option is there to get a degree doesn't mean that everyone will be able to pursue that dream and attain social mobility - even if you are given the chance to get a degree, well you need some brains as well to graduate you know and that part is what we call the 'genetic lottery'. At least refugees are in small enough figures in a place like Norway that they can be assimilated. So the government will say, "we'll give you a free house! But here's the address, it's a two hour flight from Oslo." In places like Germany and France, there are too many ethnic minority ghettos where refugees and migrants just stagnate and rot there.

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    11. Lol 2 hour flight, that might as well be the middle of nowhere in a village with mostly white people. It does make me think, social mobility is already very difficult for a native-born white working class person in Europe, adding a language and cultural barrier would be just additional challenges for a refugee. Not to say countries should not admit refugees, but that they can't expect that people will land and immediately assimilate after learning the language. Maybe if they were already middle class and educated before they got there.

      By the way, not to be a downer, but I read the news recently and economists are worried about the UK economy contracting. Did Liz Truss really do that much damage? Here in the US we do have inflation and have had some fluctuations in oil prices, but overall the cost of living haven't skyrocketed.

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    12. It's not just Liz Truss who did a lot of damage, she inherited a bad situation and made it a hundred times worst. It's like a doctor who fails to save a very sick patient when they arrive at the A&E, yes you can blame the doctor but you also have to recognize that the patient was already in a terrible state when they arrived at the hospital in the first place. It has been a triple whammy - Brexit, pandemic + war in Ukraine. Any prime minister coming into office to confront this triple whammy will have a hard time anyway, it's not like Liz Truss came into office at a time when everything was rosy and great - no, things were already in a horrific state but she managed to make them even worse. But of course, it is the poor who are affected the most. If your energy bills and food bills go up by 25%, the rich will probably not notice that much or at best grumble but just pay to continue their usual lifestyle whilst you have these stories of poor families having to choose between heating and eating.

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    13. Oh yeah I also read about strikes among civil servants in the UK. Nurses, teachers, transport workers. The cost of living crisis must really be hitting them hard enough to protest better wages. What I find unsettling in the UK is that some civil servants are paid so poorly that their children qualify for free school meals. Also, all those factors you've listed are external and related to trade. Is the UK that dependent on imports for everything? I get that people joke the UK doesn't make anything besides "services", but if that's really true then that means they don't make their own food and energy and are at the mercy of the global economy to survive. It almost sounds like Sg actually, lots of Singaporeans like to tell me "we have no natural resources, if the global economy is fucked then we're fucked."

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    14. I think you have to be careful not to treat all civil servants as if they're a monolithic entity - some civil servants are very well paid whilst the lady who processes local parking permits at the local council office is paid peanuts. The UK civil service is huge and like all huge organizations, the closer you are to the top, the better the pay and like many organizations, it is pyramid shaped so unfortunately the lady who processes the parking permits represents the majority of poorly paid civil servants. I suppose in Norway, the lady who processes parking permits in Stavanger or Oslo wouldn't feel that poor but she wouldn't exactly be rich either. The UK is dependent on imports for most things - not everything but most things. Wanna drink coffee? We don't grow that in the UK, it is imported. Wanna reach for your iPhone to text me? We don't make those in the UK, it is imported. Wanna enjoy a fresh juicy orange? We don't grow those in the UK, it is grown in much warmer climates. We're very similar to Singapore in that aspect.

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    15. The way you describe the UK is that it's amazing if you're talented and rich, with plenty of job opportunities, but a 3rd world country if you're poor. Same goes for the US I guess, except I think it's even worse here to be poor because of the lack of universal healthcare. The only saving grace of the US economy is its self-sufficiency, food and energy is mostly homegrown. I guess the way Norway solves the problem of poverty is to make even unskilled jobs require an education and pay a lot, like how you mentioned the climbing guide had a masters degree. I suppose in that case, efficiency is not the goal (which is typically the goal of capitalism), but reducing income inequality.

      I'm applying to jobs in finance right now and the state of New York recently passed a law saying companies must disclose the salary ranges. However even though I can see that quantitative finance pays within the top 5-10% for even fresh-graduates, a large percentage of that paycheck would be eaten up by New York state income taxes(close to 10% I think, not including federal taxes). Total taxes would be 35%. I think in Sg it would only be 10-15% at most. However, if those taxes go towards things like maintaining the subway or housing/education/healthcare vouchers, maybe I shouldn't complain so much. I currently live in a state with no income taxes whatsoever, but there's a lot more poverty and homelessness than New York city, even though the rents are lower here. So the state of New York is basically saying to finance workers "since you're pushing up the price of everything whilst making a lot of money, you must share."

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    16. Well yes, that's what Singapore, the UK and US share in common - that's also what makes it remarkably different from Norway (and Sweden, Denmark, Finland etc) where they address the problem of inequality by paying people like bus drivers a lot more rather than resorting to cheap foreign labour, that's why it does lead to inefficiency where people are overqualified for their jobs. This is always inevitable in all economies but Scandinavia does take that to new heights when it comes to believing in this approach, that's why their bus drivers can afford the high prices in their supermarkets whilst I am shocked at how much fruits & vegetables cost in your average Norwegian supermarket. Good luck with the job search, if you were in London, I would help you by making sure you sat down with a few people to decide which direction you wanna go in within finance. I think the key two options for you at this stage is this: big company or start up (or something in between the two). If you go into a huge company, you're just a small cog in a massive machine and whilst there's stability, progress up the ranks is slow. But if you have the guts to go into a start up, then the world is your oyster, you could become a director in a few years and become CEO of the year in no time at all - or the start up could fail and you're left back at square one looking for your next job. Or you could go in somewhere in between the two (which is what I have always done) and get the best of both worlds.

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    17. Speaking of New York, if you do go to New York, I know some people there who could sit down with you and have chats with you about deciding which direction you wanna go into (ie. corporate machine, big company vs smaller start up, more dynamic) and you have to decide what's right for your future. Yeah but you need to move to a much bigger US city to develop your career - that's inevitable really.

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    18. Yeah that's the thing about the US, there's no legal mechanism to import cheap labor. But just because there is no legal pathway, doesn't mean the demand doesn't exist. This is why illegal immigrants can thrive in the US, because there is demand for low-wage waiters, restaurant workers, grass-cutters, delivery couriers, even sweatshop workers. One of my friends told me he once had a job interview to make a website for a Colombian sweatshop in New York City. In Norway I'm sure they have some illegal immigration in the big cities, but probably a lot less since the local population have learned to make do without low-wage jobs. People say that's a huge problem in Scandinavian countries when admitting low education refugees, since there are no low-skill jobs they can work right away like house-cleaner or waiter, everything requires a degree and many of these people don't have anything past a primary school education.

      I'm thinking I'll work for a smaller company then work my way up to a big one. Not a brand new startup, though it seems these new firms are popping up all the time. I have zero experience with derivatives or other financial instruments so all I'm bringing with me to the table are my math skills. Citadel and JP Morgan were hiring quants recently, but I don't feel like being a cog in a machine, even if they pay me a lot. I'm excited to not be poor anymore though...

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    19. Well it is a compromise y'know: big company = stability but your career will progress slowly as you slowly wait for them to promote you when they think you're ready. But with much smaller companies, things can move super quickly and you have CEOs under the age of 30 working with an equally young team who are super dynamic and changing the way we do business. I've seen how bureaucratic some big firms can be and I see a lot of people move from big companies to smaller ones or even starting their own companies, but never the other way around, ie. start off small and move to a big firm. That never happens in the real world, I think those of us in smaller firms get used to the culture of smaller companies and would struggle to move into a bigger firm. But those in big firms are more used to the levels of bureaucracy that comes with working in these massive companies.

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    20. Well the size of a firm varies wildly in quantitative finance. There's the big banks like Goldman, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, etc. Then there's more mid-sized hedge funds like Bain Capital, DE Shaw, Point 72, Two Sigma. And then there's smaller firms which might have more than $1 billion in assets under management, and brand new startups. I don't think I'd like to work for a big bank, too much bureaucracy, but anything below that I'm happy to work for. Places like DE Shaw or Point 72 would be a dream for quants because they are only run by STEM people anyway.

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    21. It's also the business culture of big vs small firms - in a big firm, you have the luxury of staying in your lane, ie. "this is my job description and what I have been hired to do, don't bother me with anything beyond that scope". In a small firm, it's all hands on deck when something needs to be done and you need to be flexible enough to be able to say, "okay this is not what I do but I'm sure I can help you with that as I know you can definitely do with another pair of eyes on this project." So how would the latter make you feel? I have mixed feelings about it, whilst I want to show that I am a team player, I know I cannot produce good result when made to do a task outside my comfort zone.

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    22. Well I come from academia so it was pretty much all hands on deck anyway. The big companies also want to see a masters or a PhD, but it seems they limit the scope of what you do. I actually know a physics prof who told me his latest PhD student graduated and ended up working for a hedge fund in Singapore doing quantitative finance. But that guy hates his job because all he does is model the stock market using stochastic calculus. He doesn't even know what stocks he's modeling, the traders just give him some parameters that he plugs into a simulation, and he tells them the results of the simulation. To be fair, he makes a lot of money, probably twice the amount of a typical PhD fresh graduate in Singapore. But he started complaining to that physics prof saying "I don't make anything or study anything interesting, I wanna go back to academia even if it means a 50% paycut." I'd probably be bored too if I ended up in the same job, but also really happy about my paycheck to make up for it. However, if I get more creative freedom in understanding the trading strategies we use, or get to use A.I as well, then I'd be happy. Also, I want to keep the door open to go back to tech if I do go into finance. It's all just numbers anyway, but if I get siloed only working on one type of equation then I'm not as versatile anymore.

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    23. Btw, I know I shouldn't knock or devalue a career in quantitative finance, but I applied to finance jobs as a backup. My main goal is actually to go into quantum computing/A.I in the tech industry. But last year when I was applying to any internship on a whim just to see what types of jobs I could get, I noticed that I had the highest interview request percentage for quantitative finance jobs. Apparently they just want generalists and my skillset of modeling from physics is all they need. They don't need me to be able to code a website or handle Linux like a computer science graduate in an A.I job, but I'd still like to go for those jobs anyway but need to work on my coding portfolio a bit more. I'm still working on that right now, the coding portfolio that is, but I will apply to finance jobs anyway since that seems to be the easiest interviews I can get with my current CV. Also the pay in finance is more than what I'd get in tech when it comes to a cash basis. Tech in theory pays more, but in the form of stock options (big tech or small startups both offer stock).

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