Hello guys, I recently read a BBC article about ageism that over-50s face in the workplace and of course, that is something that I had a personal reaction to. Cards on the table: I am going to turn 47 this year and on top of that, I have changed jobs twice in the last two years - thankfully, each time I wanted to change jobs I had no problems doing so but of course, I recognize that I am not young anymore and I soon will turn 50. I was in Norway last weekend climbing Preikestolen and that was my second visit there, my first visit to Norway was back in 1998, 25 years ago and the scary thing is I still have some clear memories of what I did in Oslo on that trip as if that trip wasn't all that long ago: that just shows you how quickly time can pass. In this post, I'll talk about some of the issues raised in the BBC article and offer some personal perspectives as an older person in the workforce who faces many of these challenges on a daily basis.
Only one side of the story: Michael's experience
The BBC article focuses the article on just one subject - Michael O'Reilly from Bexhill, a small town on the south coast of England near Eastbourne. Michael has held senior positions before but is struggling to get a job now and he blames it on ageism. The problem with analyzing his story is that the BBC article doesn't tell us the whole story - we don't know why he lost his last job. That's the gaping hole in the article which bothers me: even if it wasn't his fault at all, then please at least enlighten us. Thus instead, I am left wondering if he was sacked for making an incredibly stupid mistake or if it was over gross misconduct, like if he got extremely drunk at the Christmas party and did something unspeakable in public? Please, I'm not suggesting he did something that terrible, but that's naturally what I had thought of when I read the story. Older people like me changing jobs isn't unusual; in fact, I have a lot of sympathy for people who are in that position having gone through it myself. However, if you are productive, if you have useful skills, then it wouldn't be that hard to find a company who will want to employ you. But the fact that he hasn't been able to find a new job suggests to me that there is essentially something wrong with Michael, though we are simply not given enough information to figure out why exactly he can't find a new job. This then suggests that the journalist who wrote the article has not done a good job - we are simply given Michael's side of the story, that he is a blameless victim of ageism and has done absolutely nothing wrong, that he's suffering from discrimination and this is society's fault. But even if that's genuinely how Michael feels about the current situation, would a respectable journalist simply report his side of the story in an article like that as if it was 'news' rather than just the personal opinion of a bitter, jaded old man? What about the other side of the story then?
Evidence of bad judgment?
I did question Michael's decision to take part in a BBC story like this as he presented himself as a victim who simply refused to accept any of the blame or responsibility for his situation. I am wondering how much effort is he making to present himself as a credible candidate to employees in the interviews that he has had as he simply claimed that these interviews tended to go badly wrong when they either met him face to face or did a video interview. He makes an implicit assumption that they lost interest the moment they saw how old he was, but given that I have been in so many such interview situations on the other side of the table and the fact that I deliver sales pitches as part of my job, I have my doubts whether or not it is simply a straight forward case of ageism. Interviews are really difficult - you walk into a room and meet one or more strangers you have never ever met before, you are then expected to establish rapport, relax and build a relationship with them over a rather short period of time. It requires an enormous amount of social skills and confidence to perform well in such interviews and look, I'm sympathetic. If someone like Michael has had a bad job interview because he's said the wrong thing and then immediately wished he had said something else - yeah, we've all been in that kind of situation before. The first thing I'd do after a bad interview, sales pitch or audition would be to blame myself and try to work out what I did wrong, so I could learn from my mistakes and hopefully, become a wiser person after that experience. However not only did Michael refuse to accept any responsibility for those interviews that went wrong, he squarely placed the blame on the other party and told that story to the BBC without thinking, "what kind of impression am I giving potential employers in the future about the kind of person I am?" That's evidence of rather poor judgment on Michael's part, in the short run a rant always feels good; but in the long run, he has very little to gain from it.
How much effort is Michael willing to make to fight ageism?
Yes I definitely think so as I am currently working with a team that is much younger than me. Now the fact is technology does play a huge part in my industry today and I'm working in financial services - it's not even like I am working in IT or engineering. The reason why old people are deemed out of touch and unable to cope with modern technology is because our education was totally useless in the context of the modern world, we were not brought up with the kind of technology that is used today. However, you then have a choice whether or not you want to embrace this change and keep up with all the latest technology. Now the issue isn't that young people are somehow cleverer or more adaptable, but without the burden of being parents, young adults have more time on their hands to learn new things. Whilst people like Michael have to worry about helping their children with their homework, younger adults are spending that time learning about the latest trends in the industry and picking up valuable new skills to further their career. Whilst people like Michael are paying a lot of money for their children to attend all kinds of classes and activities, younger adults are often investing in themselves instead. I am very lucky as I am a gay man with no children, I have so much more time on my hands dedicated to improving my mind and body. Having the burden of childcare is the main reason why many older people like Michael end up in the junk yard with all the other obsolete, out of date machines that are no longer productive - are people like Michael willing to make the sacrifices in order to always place their career development first? Or are they always going to blame others and use the excuse of "I'm a parent, so I must take care of my children"? Do you want to invest in your children's future or yourself? Do older people ever have a valid excuse for not investing in themselves?
If one company says no to you vs if every single company rejects you.
Let's put it this way: even the best actors do not get every single part they audition for but as long as they do get some good parts once in a while, then that's good enough. A good salesman will never close every single customer he pitches but as long as he can close some clients regularly and his sales figures are respectable, then he's doing a pretty good job. But if an actor fails at every single audition and has not managed get any paid work in years, then that's when you start to realize, well maybe you are not as talented as you think you are, maybe you truly suck as an actor and it is now time to consider a career change. Likewise, if a salesman hasn't sold anything for six months, then he would be sacked by his employers for failing to deliver. Thus I don't expect Michael to get a job offer for every single job he goes for, no that'll be unrealistic of course. But if every single company he has applied to has rejected him, then I'm afraid that suggests that the fault lies with him and that there's a pink elephant in the room that the BBC journalists have chosen to ignore. I simply don't have enough information from that BBC article to try to figure out what the issue with Michael may be, but if every single company rejects him then he must really suck at job interviews for it to all fall apart at that stage. Does he talk to much? Why does he fail to establish rapport with the people interviewing him? Does he have bad breath? Does he dress inappropriately for the interviews? Is he making unrealistic demands at these interviews? Well we don't know but clearly he is doing something wrong at these interviews but if he insists on playing the victim card and claiming that it is all down to ageist discrimination, then how the heck is he going to stop making that same mistake over and over again by assuming that he has done nothing wrong? And why didn't the BBC journalists try to challenge Michael then?
Are you fighting stereotypes or confirming the stereotypes of older people?
Once you get past a certain age, it really doesn't matter how old you are but it is more a question of how well you take care of yourself. If we put a five year old and a eight year old next to each other, we can see a big difference in their physical and mental development despite there being a gap of only three years between the two children. But that gap becomes inconsequential say if we put a 48 year old and a 51 year old next to each other, you would struggle to identify which person is older and it would then come down to factors like how well they take care of themselves, the state of their health and fitness as well as the way their behaviour - everything from the way they talk to the way they dress. I remember Ken (not his real name) from a few years ago. He is only slightly older than me and he is married, both Ken and his wife are morbidly obese. I remember once seeing a photo of them when they were younger and neither of them were that fat then, they weren't exactly thin but something has happened in the last two decades which made the both of them grow very fat together. There is an element of "as I am already married, I am not supposed to be seducing anyone and I have a duty to be faithful to my spouse and so I can give up on my appearances and become fat." With Ken, it goes way beyond simply becoming fat, he has given up making any effort with his appearances by the same token - look, whilst his diet is a personal choice and if he wants to eat himself to an early grave, that is his problem but at some point, you do get the impression that he has simply given up on at least that aspect of his life and doesn't care anymore what others may think of his appearances. Ken may claim, "I'm applying to be your new CFO, I'm not trying to be a supermodel or athlete so who cares how I look even if I am very fat? My physical appearance has nothing to do with the job." But he's giving people a terrible first impression the moment he walks into the room before he can even say a word.
Surely experience counts for something in the working world?
One thing that Michael said in the BBC article is that he wants to give something back based on his experience and to help others gain from that experience - I find this at best contentious but the devil is in the detail. Firstly, let's not make the assumption that all work experience is useful; some of that work experience will be more relevant and useful than others; a lot of that will depend on where you have worked. Allow me to give you an example: there's someone in my industry whom I shall call Nabil (not his real name), he has worked for a company with a bad reputation for dishonest dealings, let's call that company Badrep. Nabil has left Badrep a few years ago and has set up his own company, but his time at Badrep follows him around like a foul stench as many people have asked me, "wait a minute, didn't he used to work at Badrep all those years ago? Are you sure he can be trusted if he's like that rest of those crooks at Badrep?" We shall leave Nabil's story for another day as it is way too complex and interesting for me to do justice to in this paragraph, but certainly his work experience is working against him in this case. Another potential problem with work experience is that it can give the impression that you are either complacent or stuck in your ways - it doesn't automatically mean that you cannot adapt to new environments or challenges, it just means that some people will assume that you will find changing your ways a much bigger challenge. Indeed, I like working with young people who have little or no work experience because they are super keen to prove themselves whilst older people who already think that they have nothing else to prove simply expect a big salary without having to try too hard - thus let's no make any assumptions about work experience always working in your favour and thus perhaps that's something Michael has taken for granted.
Now the reason why I was willing to deal with Nabil was because we had a mutual friend, let's call him Mr Deutsch (as he is German) and Mr Deutsch is a highly respected expert in my industry and Nabil did tell me that it was Mr Deutsch who told him to speak to me. That's when I thought, Mr Deutsch is a no nonsense German businessman who wouldn't suffer fools gladly, so he wouldn't send Nabil my way unless he was absolutely sure it would be a fruitful and useful meeting. Therefore it is not experience per se that is valuable, but you need someone who can do exactly what Mr Deutsch did for Nabil - it is like providing a reference, to tell others, "you can trust him, he is a good guy and you will want to meet him to see how you can work together." Likewise, I have been in situation where others have done me the same kind of favour, by giving me a really good reference/recommendation. Hence I wonder, why doesn't Michael have any former colleagues or employers who are willing to do him a favour by giving him a really good recommendation? Surely if he could persuade a former employee or colleague to give him a really good reference prior to the interview, then can make such a difference - thus my attitude towards Nabil totally changed after I spoke to Mr Deutsch about him. Why isn't Michael asking some of his former colleagues and/or employers for that kind of help then? Might it be because none of them are willing to talk about Michael in a positive way? Could Michael be worried that they might say negative things about him? After all, if Michael is in his 50s and has so many years of work experience, then he would definitely have a long list of former employers and colleagues - so why isn't he tapping into that network to get some help with his interviews? Is this just a massive blind spot on his part or is there a valid reason why he cannot get a reference from a previous employer?
What is the obvious problem we're not talking about here?
There's definitely an elephant in the room that the BBC article ignored. The key reason why many older applicants are rejected is because companies worry that they will not be a good fit for the team - if the average age of the team is around 30, having someone in their 50s like Michael join the team would be unusual and the rest of the team would wonder, would he be a good fit? Is he going to get along with the rest of us younger people in the team? Or would it be at best awkward, at worst difficult to work with him? Of course, my regular readers will know my answer to this question already: social skills! I am not saying for a moment it is easy to relate to and work with people who might even be young enough to be your children, you have to bridge the generation gap and yes, of course it would help if they would reach across that divide and meet you in the middle but otherwise, the better your social skills, the easier it will be for you to cope in this kind of situation. I am confronted with this five times a week when I volunteer with my university alumni's gymnastics club - after training, I would walk out to the main road with my gymnasts and chat to them along the way. Sometimes we talk about gymnastics, but we mostly talk about our lives outside the gym. As you know, I am going to be 47 this year and some of them are definitely young enough to be my children if they're around 20 and I use that as a practice of my social skills to see if I can make sure my age is never a barrier to communication with them. It doesn't always work, I get along with some of them better than others but I know I have achieved my objective if they don't even realize that I am that so much older than them and they feel as if they are talking to one of their peers from the university.
Look I'm not claiming it is easy to get along with people half your age, the thing to do is not to pretend that there's no difference between someone like Michael in his 50s and a bunch of young adults around half his age, but rather once we acknowledge that gap exists, both parties are expected to reach across the divide in order to bridge that gap. Whilst I would hope that these younger people do not make any ageist assumptions of older people like how we're terrible with technology and would use an incredibly old phone, older people like Michael and I also need to be make a real effort to defy those stereotypes. Now a pet hate of mine is when old people where clothes that are painfully out of date - it's as if they bought that outfit in 1998 and are totally oblivious to the fact that fashion trends have totally shifted in the last 25 years. I'm not expecting Michael to go to Topman or Superdry to get a whole new wardrobe that would be more suited for a 21 year old (that would look ridiculous), but it is often very easy to tell when someone is genuinely making an effort with their appearances or if they have simply opened their wardrobe and realized that the suit they bought in 1998 still fits and so that's a good enough reason to wear it to the job interview. Younger people would tend to invest in nice, professional looking outfits for work if they know they have a long and productive career ahead of them and thus that's why these nice clothes are a great investment. But older people like Michael who are nearer their retirement may take a completely different outlook like, "what's the point of spending that much money on an expensive, brand new suit when I will be retiring in the next couple of years? Some of my old suits still fit, I don't want to waste any money." However, with that kind of mindset, your image will be giving younger people the impression that you would rather be retired than working.
Recognizing the difficulty and stepping up your game.
Imagine if a 50-year old man turned up at my adult gymnastics class and asked me, "Alex, I'm 50, is it possible for me to learn how to do a back somersault?" So let's start with two wrong answers: the first wrong answer is, "you're way too old, that's impossible for someone your age." The second wrong answer is "yes you can, it's easy, you just have to work hard at training." The right answer is somewhere in between the two extremes: yes you can probably learn how to do it, but it will take time. You're not fit enough at the moment, so you will have to lose a lot of weight and build up a lot of muscles in your arms and legs before you're physically capable of doing it. You are also totally new to gymnastics and so you have to learn a lot of the basics before you become coordinated enough to do a physically demanding skill like a back somersault. If you can commit to coming for training a few times a week over the next year, then it might be possible. I'm not saying for a moment it is easy, but it is doable if you're willing to invest the amount of time and effort necessary to succeed. The same way you can look at a mountain and ask, "can I climb that mountain?" The answer would be yes, but it will be a difficult, exhausting and challenging journey - just because it is doable doesn't mean for a moment that it will be easy. By the same token, can we teach someone like Michael to work with a team of young adults under the age of 30? Yes we can, but it won't be easy - in fact it would be quite difficult for Michael to succeed, but just because it is difficult doesn't mean it is impossible and just because it is doable and possible doesn't mean it will be very easy for him. Hence a very practical first step for Michael would be to at least recognize the scale of the challenge he faces and be mentally prepared to try harder to do whatever it takes to succeed rather than simply give up and play the victim's card.
Are older people having unrealistic expectations about the way they are perceived?
In a recent post, I have talked about how older Asian people don't try that hard when it comes to social skills because they enjoy unconditional respect in Asian culture simply for being old. It is a very frustrating aspect of Asian culture as I believe that respect should be earned, rather than given away on the basis of age - this has led to a lot of badly behaved older Asian people getting away with hideous behaviour whilst younger people around them are too Asian to criticize their elders. This may have been the case a generation or two ago in the UK but it no longer exists with the younger generation here today and I think that's definitely a good thing. Older workers like Michael and myself are expected to prove our worth of salt in the labour market and pull our weight, rather than expect some kind of free pass or preferential treatment on the basis of our age. I'm quite happy to prove myself as I have both the skills and technical knowledge to perform well in my chosen area of expertise. If Michael was Asian, then I would just roll my eyes and chalk his attitude up to his culture but no, Asian is white and living in the UK thus that's why I am somewhat surprised that he has this attitude. If Michael was prepared to prove himself rather than expect preferential treatment on the basis of his age, then maybe he wouldn't be so surprised at how difficult it is to find a new job under current conditions; we are in the middle of a recession. The UK is facing a triple whammy of Brexit, the pandemic and the war in Ukraine and thus anyone who is trying to find a new job now is bound to have a very challenging time. Having more work experience doesn't really give you much of an advantage but if Michael thinks it really ought to, then I'm afraid that's just him being woefully unrealistic.
So in conclusion, whilst I don't want to ignore the ageism that people like Michael and I do face, it exists, yes it is real. However, I really don't like the way he has simply played the victim's card and expected society to change for the better - why isn't he taking concrete steps to help himself in this situation, to better cope with the challenges he faces in his quest to find a new job? That's in from me on this issue, what do you think? Have I been way too harsh on Michael? Or do we blame the BBC journalists for not having asked him the right questions and presenting him in a very unflattering light? Are you an older person concerned about ageism? Or if you're a younger person under 30, what do you think of older people like Michael? What can Michael do to help himself? Please do leave a comment below, many thanks for reading.
My criticism of the article is that it doesn't even say what job or general industry Michael works in. A quick google search found that he does indeed work in finance and even used to work for HSBC in London. I get that if you're older you have to deliver something better than someone younger because they expect you to clock less overtime hours into the job. Recently I had an interview with a woman with a PhD in physics and 20 years experience working for a big company before she moved to a tech startup with lots of venture capital funding. She's now the manager of several teams of PhD graduates, and she's in her late 40s. That kind of person gives a wealth of experience and know-how into getting things working and setup quickly that young workers would fumble for twice as long with.
ReplyDeleteI think what Michael is asking for is a level playing field with a fresh graduate or someone in their 30s. But maybe that's just not possible since different age groups have different strengths and weaknesses. At the same time, I cannot compete with my recent interviewer for the same type of jobs, I don't have nearly as much experience in both physics and managing people as she does, nor awards or newspaper articles written about my scientific achievements. But she also can't compete with me for the type of starting jobs I would go for, as she has a husband and kids to look after and isn't as tech savvy with the latest developments. The problem with older people like Michael looking for a job is the pyramid nature of capitalist economies. There are just fewer management type jobs at the top for older people than grunt jobs at the bottom for young people. So if you have to change jobs late in life, you will be competing for fewer jobs overall. Sad to say, but this reminds me of the demographic crisis economists keep panicking about, when people stop having kids there's not enough young people to support all the old people retiring and in need of pension and health services. Well the same is true in the economy where you need enough young people working jobs at the bottom to support older managers.
Well this isn't the first time I have criticized a BBC article for poor journalism. I felt they simply let Michael have his rant without asking him any difficult questions - I suppose if they were too harsh on him, he might feel like he was being interrogated and just refuse to do the article. But there are just so many gaping holes in the article that even I has an older person read it and thought, "that's something missing here, we're not being told the whole story as to why Michael is struggling so much if he has indeed had that much work experience."
DeleteBut then again, what is Michael expecting? The level field can never be totally level for everyone, the key thing to do is to respond to the challenges by being realistic about what you're up against - ageism is there so rather than wishing it wasn't there, you need to take concrete steps to fight against it and convince these young people that you're not one of those old people who should retire, that you still have a lot to contribute. But complaining about ageism simply screams, "it's not my fault, the world needs to change to suit older people like me!" Yeah right, happy waiting, as if the world is going to change for you after you've done this BBC article.
DeleteSorry typo: the PLAYING field can never be totally level
DeleteI think what you mean by "there's something missing" is the question of why hasn't Michael made any good contacts that he can rely on to look for a job. Especially since he worked for HSBC of all places. Though to be fair, even as a young person it's hard to get on the career ladder. You also have to network as a young person for the best jobs, especially because you're unproven people don't want to take a risk on you. I'm looking for jobs right now, and there's many I can't apply to because they demand 3-5 years work experience analyzing and trading derivatives. Some even want 5-10 years of experience.
DeleteAnyway, as hard as it is to stay on the ladder, there are many people who never get on the ladder of a white collar career in the first place. Like Alex you speak a lot about how gymnastic coaches are paid peanuts but some end up in this career long term and probably won't be able to start a family without being in poverty. Basically what I'm saying is that finding a job sucks for everybody, unless you have connections.
Yes exactly, which is why I used the case study of 'Nabil' who worked for Badrep - I wouldn't even respond to his messages on Linkedin until he got Mr Deutsch to text me and say, "can you talk to Nabil please? I can vouch that he's a good guy". It's called a reference and it's a network of trust you build by befriending respected experts in the industry who will be in a good position to assist you by opening doors for you like that. If Nabil can get Mr Deutsch to do him that favour, then I'm sure I can do the same favour for you Amanda - it isn't rocket science so why hasn't Michael thought about using it? Unless of course, everyone who has met Michael has something bad and nothing good to say about him, but that's really a worst case scenario.
DeleteI've met my fair share of creepy guys over the years in my career, maybe Michael isn't one of them (benefit of the doubt) and this is merely a case of a poorly written article and Michael is a victim of bad journalism - after all, you participate in the interview and you have absolutely no idea how it would be edited and presented to the audience; could he have predicted how he would have been portrayed as a loser playing the victim's card in the article? Probably not, as he wouldn't have agreed to take part in the first place.
DeleteWell I'd really appreciate if you could connect me with people on LinkedIn in the US if you have any connections here. Thanks Alex.
DeleteDo you really suspect that Michael did something bad during his career like being a creep or doing accounting fraud? Either would destroy his career forever... To be fair to the article, they did quote survey data on whether employers would hire older workers. 18% is quite low for over 65s, but they didn't provide survey data for Michael's age range of 50-65. Those people aren't retired yet, but close to it, while the over 65s are clearly retired. I probably sound like an armchair recruiter, but if Michael was really desperate for a job, maybe he should join a startup which has difficulty hiring experienced workers. The pay would be less, yes, but if he really does have lots of experience then he would be a valuable asset and complement the skills of the young founders and early engineers. Every tech startup needs to setup IT, things such as emails, secure servers for their patented information, high performance computing, etc. It's usually the startups that like to steal older more experienced workers from the big established companies anyway.
But yeah like you said the journalist probably could not scrutinize Michael too heavily or he wouldn't participate in the interview. Rather than say "employers suck", they should have pointed out what jobs are seniors getting, and what jobs are they not getting, instead of just saying they are getting less jobs overall. Or maybe ask the employers for reasons they don't hire older workers. But overall the vibe I'm getting is that there's just too much competition for good jobs, among any age bracket really. I'm interviewing for a job right now but the interviewer told me that they're interviewing so many applicants for very few positions, that I would have to wait 2 weeks to hear their reply, and even then I have 2 more rounds of technical interviews to pass if I pass this one. You don't have to be over 50 like Michael to face lots of competition!
But before I jump to any conclusions in the complete absence of concrete evidence of Michael being creepy or any serious wrongdoing, it could also be entirely possible that he simply has very bad social skills and sucks at interview. Some people also don't know how to ask for help - they feel embarrassed at that age to ask friends or former colleagues to give them a reference when I am totally shameless because I have the attitude, "what have I got to lose - if you don't ask, you don't get." Michael may be guilty of no more than having utterly terrible social skills, that's all.
DeleteWell I can't start next Monday, but I can start next month(march) if they need me to get the masters degree. I'd just have to rush my thesis, but it's 90% done. In fact right now I'm not even focusing that much on the thesis because I'm busy looking for jobs. I'm in the situation where it would be worse for me to graduate and have no job, so I'd like to secure a job before I can graduate. Yeah maybe now is not a good time. It would be better if I got another job through another source, moved to Chicago or New York, then said to you "hey I'm looking to change jobs, got any leads for quants?" and I can meet someone face to face. Wow that's a very fast meeting, things do move fast in finance. Anyway, thanks for offering anyway.
DeleteYeah there is nothing to lose by asking around. But some people do feel ashamed when they can't get jobs through regular applying because they think it's scummy to get a job through connections than merit. But in the article it said Michael is from Bexhill, that doesn't sound very posh, so it probably wouldn't be normal for him to network. I would take him more seriously if he said in the interview "I've asked all my mates for leads on jobs, but even they don't want to help me." I talked to one of the recruiters at MIT, and he said they had a fast-track for people they meet in person at events because it's easier to get a feel for whether they like someone face to face rather than through a resume. And I've had to agree too, I don't wanna work for a liar/bullshitter, and on paper you can't tell that.
Yeah it's not like I don't wanna be kind, sympathetic and supportive, but in my industry, it's very much "business, business, business". I do compartmentalize my emotions, I can be a sweet and kind friend who will hold your hand and talk about your feelings - but that's me in friend mode. When I am in work mode, I'm like right, you're right for this role, I want you to start on Monday morning. Here's the key factor you need to consider: if I am not in a position to hire you, then I wouldn't even waste your time (or mine) by meeting you to talk, cos you could spend that time talking to someone who is actually in a position to offer you a job. But if I am in a position to offer you a job, I'd be a bit miffed if you weren't ready to start really quite soon. So if there's something in the way like completing your masters degree, then I suggest you focus on completing that for now and then apply for jobs when you're pretty much done with it.
DeleteOh well, I guess I'm funded for a few more months by the university, I can just work on my coding portfolio in the mean time so by the time I do apply again I can show off some of my projects in interviews. I at least figured out how to pass the quant exams.
DeleteMonday? That soon? I have had jobs where I delayed the start date by 2 months, but that was over visa issues on their side. I have a greencard so I suppose employers here would expect me to start ASAP.
Gosh it's stressful looking for jobs. I'm in the same position as Michael in this article except I'm a fresh graduate with some work experience.
There are two ways to look at it - firstly, if the company is sure that they want you and you're a specialist in your field who is so unique and talented, then yeah you're in the driving seat. You can take two months off to go surfing in Hawaii before visiting your best friend in Australia then coming back in early June after you've had a chance to move to New York, settle in and get in the right mind set for work. In fact for my current job, I delayed my start date by 3 months just because I wanted a break. My only regret was I took two holidays in that time (Wales and Germany) but should have gone a LOT further like Asia. But otherwise, yeah the key reason why someone wants to hire you is because they have a vacancy that needs to be filled and if you can't start immediately, then they might offer that role to someone else who is able to start next Monday. Analogy time:I am a landlord and I have some flats to rent out to people like you in London. Imagine if you say to me you need a flat but you're only going to move to London in June - what the heck am I supposed to do till then? Leave the apartment empty and not collect any rent on it whilst I reserve it for you? Or do I say "no, I can't help you", then offer it to someone else who is ready to move in this week even if they are willing to pay less than you because when I do the maths, it works out that leaving the flat empty till June is way too high a price to pay to eventually welcome you as my tenant - it just makes more sense to get someone in ASAP. I hate to be harsh but I am an expert, a very senior experienced one at that, so I get to say, "if you want me, wait 3 months whilst I take two holidays." But for people who are hiring people with far less work experience like you, then the people looking to hire need work done ASAP. They need someone to fill a gap in the team now - everyday that gap is not filled, they lose money, the same way I lose money everyday I do not have a tenant renting from me in one of my apartments in London. Think about it from their POV. Why are they hiring staff? Work needs to be done, it needs to be done now. Otherwise if you don't really need work to be done, then why are you even hiring in the first place? Doesn't make sense to waste money like that. Do you hire a plumber when your sink is leaking (and your kitchen is flooded) or do you hire a plumber to "inspect the pipes" but essentially have no work for him?
DeleteHey Alex. Yeah I totally get your argument, in business people want things quick, especially if it's a high paying job that many people would dream of getting. I'm a new quant, so I don't have any bargaining power. Also we met on the internet, so if you did get me a job I'd be so grateful.
DeleteAnyway, I just talked to a recruiter who only recruits quants! She told me about the industry, what kinda expertise they're looking for. I'm so surprised they even have a use for my major because it's not physics or mathematics. She said something about how the algorithms used to make robots walk can also be used to predict what will happen to the London stock exchange given information on what happened in the Singapore stock exchange. Lol, and this whole time I thought all I was doing was only useful for making disabled people walk again or to build cars, not trade stocks. She told me she works with big banks and hedge funds to look for new employees, and she makes a commission if she applies on my behalf and I get the job. Most of her clients are in New York though, so I'd probably have to move there soon if she got me a job.
By the way, I asked her about big companies vs. small companies because you brought it up in your last post. She said yeah it's true that in the small companies you have to "wear many hats" and "roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty", but at the same time, she said that being in a small company means in the 2nd year you get added to the bonus pool. So if I'm a really good quant in a small company who makes the firm a lot of money, I could double my salary in the 2nd year. But in a big company the base salary is a lot higher, but it doesn't increase that much relative to performance. So although it's a more stable job, there's less room for creativity and less upward trajectory. Pros and cons I guess. She also said something funny about how many hedge funds are moving from New York city to Miami, Florida, only because Florida has no income tax (while New York is minimum 10%) . Although I complain a lot about taxes and rent in New York, when the recruiter quoted me the salary I'd make, I thought that's more than enough to live comfortably compared to living in Florida. I really like living in a city with a subway.
Btw, when you said things in finance move fast, I didn't anticipate just how fast. The recruiter over the phone told me she has no open positions for junior quants, but then 6 hours later she emails me four open positions. Tech does not move this fast. I had to tell her I thought the positions would come in a month or two (or never, I'm that paranoid I search for jobs this early), because I have a bunch of administrative stuff to do so I can graduate. And even if I got a job interview and offer, it's not like I can hop on a plane to New York city next Monday and live out of hotels until I get a rental. But I get why she would want me hired soon, because she works on commission and getting people hired pays the bills. Like you said, if there is an open position it means the company is losing money every day it's unfilled, so they'll pay recruiters to get it done quickly. Wow salespeople in finance are very efficient, even the ones who sell workers rather than products.
DeleteYes exactly, companies who do want to hire obviously need the new staff to do something, it is a match of "I need someone to do these tasks" and the new recruit saying, "I know how to do these tasks for you" - just like how you desperately call that plumber when you come home one day and find that there's something leaking in your kitchen and there is a huge puddle of water on the floor. At that moment, you have a desperate need for a skilled plumber to fix the problem and you're willing to pay that plumber good money for that service. I actually have the number of a good plumber in London in my phone, I text him when I need his services but otherwise, I don't have any contact with him - not even to say hi to him (the way I might with you Amanda as you're my friend). And yes there have been times when I text my plumber and ask him if he can help fix something, he would say, "I'm terribly sorry, I am on a job that will take at least 48 hours to complete but text my friend Steve and he might be able to help you." If my kitchen is flooded, I can't wait 48 hours, so I say thank you and text Steve immediately and use Steve's services instead. Anyway, as you go through the process of applying for loads of jobs with different companies, instinctively you will develop a gut instinct, some employers will leave you thinking, yes I really wanna work there whilst others will leave you feeling 'meh', I don't really care whether they offer me a job or not as I'm not that keen. For a really good company, you might find yourself willing to move mountains in order to start next Monday - you'll realize that feeling when it hits you, when you realize OMFG I really really really wanna work there, oh please please please.
DeleteYeah, maybe I was overly paranoid looking for jobs this early. Maybe in tech it takes a while to find a job, because they have a laxer culture overall, but in finance it's go go go. There's always stuff to do in a quant firms, whether it's doing some math derivation on a whiteboard, coding a simulation/implementation of that, or analyzing expensive data. Some of the company descriptions I was sent was for small companies with less than 20 people where everyone codes. They probably want another coder to reduce everyone else's coding load. In a bigger company the math person and the coding person are usually separate, but the nature of high frequency trading means models have to be tested and coded really fast before the market changes. I guess I will make a lot of money soon in finance, I just have to finish up this degree. One thing I am surprised about is that I thought the job openings would be sparse because we're technically in a recession. I remember panicking about that a few months ago on this blog and you were just like "nah it won't affect finance too much." And you're right actually! Even in tech as the big tech firms are laying off people, some startups are still hiring and aggressively expanding.
DeleteY'know, given the salary ranges the recruiter quoted me, I realized if I become a quant and stay as a quant for at least a decade, I'd be even richer than my dad, which is a pretty high bar. It never was about the money to me, I'm becoming a quant(or tech worker) because I really like solving challenging math problems. But that means I wouldn't be poor or middle class anymore, after being in that income bracket for close to a decade. I could go back to hanging out in the same posh circles I grew up in, but with a different perspective on life compared to people who never left. It is a really weird feeling, I wonder what my old private school buddies would say about me, probably something like "Amanda's family lost their wealth, but she made the money back by working as a scientist in academia then becoming a quant in Wallstreet." Anyway, I don't have to hang out with only posh people in New York if I don't want to. But that means I'd have to travel outside of Manhattan for more financially inclusive areas. I was looking at gymnastics clubs in New York just now and there are some really upscale luxury gyms. Dunno if I'd even live in Manhattan or somewhere else then commute in by subway.
DeleteHello Amanda a few points. I am into my Youtube shorts now and it's like TikTok, they hit you with random short videos and I remember going from one shorts featuring a Korean American rich kid talking about her mum spending $8,000 on a gift for her to an interview on the British news about why nurses are striking - they work long hours and still can't make ends meet. So we accept that this is a very unequal society and if there is a recession, sure it will hit some people harder than others but you actually have far more in common with that super rich Korean American young lady than the nurses demanding better pay. As for living in New York, the fact is we have to work so many hours a day, have enough sleep and the rest of the time we have left for social activities is so precious as that's when we have fun - so in a big enough city like New York, you can find new friends that you will definitely feel very happy and comfortable with. You might not get that luxury in a much smaller town but thanks to social media, no matter how weird you are, you can easily find others who are on your wavelength and thus you can use that opportunity to reinvent your social life.
DeleteBTW, a quick Google search revealed at least ten adult gymnastics clubs in New York scattered around the city. In a place like New York, you shouldn't have that much trouble finding a gymnastics club to train as an adult. Having said that, the concept of adult gymnastics just doesn't exist in Hong Kong at all, as my friend who moved there found out but it does exist in Singapore!
DeleteWell I still had to work to get to where I am after undergrad, and I made very little in academia and barely found a place cheap enough that would rent to me. At least I don't have to turn down recruiters or lucrative job offers anymore because I can just work full-time. I was almost considering driving for uber to pay off my car loan faster, but as soon as I get my first paycheck as a quant or tech worker I'll just pay off my car loan in full. But if I move to New York I probably have to sell my car because parking is so expensive and public transport is just fine. By the way, I talked to my boyfriend about the jobs I'm looking at, and with tech I can work remotely so I don't have to move, but with finance I have to move to New York (or Chicago). He was just hoping I got tech instead of finance. But if finance is the only one on offer because of the tech layoffs, then I'd have to go to New York. But I'd make so much as a quant I could easily support us both if he wanted to come with me to New York. It's gonna be a hard conversation to have if it comes to that.
DeleteI mean, my boyfriend talks a lot about wanting to travel internationally, but you need money for that. Yeah okay I did grow up like that Korean-American rich kid so I still remember the vacations I went on with my family to 5 star hotels and how much it cost. Unless my boyfriend thinks if I work in tech the money is similar to finance but we don't have to move.
Oh yes in many places they think gymnastics is only for little girls (or boys, but usually girls). I know people who don't even live in my city but commute here just for the adult gymnastics club because their small town only has kid's gymnastics. I'd also be looking for tennis clubs and fencing clubs if I went to New York. It's such a big city you can find a club for almost any niche hobby.
There are other good reasons to be in person in New York, like networking for example. Every social event I go to is bound to have other people from finance in case I wanted to switch jobs or ask for advice. Well it seems we're postponing this conversation since I'm still applying and interviewing right now. The thing is we haven't been dating for very long so we haven't even moved in together yet. Maybe if we did then we'd consider moving to a different city together for more money, especially if we'd like to get married and start a family soon. I get that money is a hard conversation to have, and traditionally many women will give up their career to marry a rich guy and be a stay at home mom no question. The reverse case is a lot rarer because women don't traditionally outearn men or even work in high paying jobs like quantitative finance. I don't want to force a guy to give up everything for me, in fact I hope that if I made good money it meant I could let a guy do whatever he wanted much easier without worrying about taking a job he hated just to support the family(like a Chua or Johann situation). We'll see I guess. But I also don't want to look like I'm "buying" the relationship, like "honey I have so much money you can live like a king if you come with me. International vacations? We'll go a few times a year." Today I was looking at my Google news feed, and there was a reddit post about a fresh computer science graduate new quant who got an offer from a big NYC hedge fund paying half a mil a year, and this is for a 22 year old.
DeleteBtw I do have a best friend who was long distance with her boyfriend for close to two years because they met online playing videogames together (she was in America, he was in Canada). They just dated long distance while making a plan for one of them to move to be with the other. I say "was" long distance because she plans to move to Canada soon to be with him since the US is very hard to immigrate to compared to Canada. I'm okay with things being long distance while we make more permanent plans later. I just attended a birthday party of a fellow PhD student last night who announced his recent engagement. He was long distance with his now fiance for a while before she moved cities to move in with him last year(lol he had to kick out his roommate who was my coworker so she could move in), and now they're moving again after he graduates soon. There's just not a lot of good jobs in my city for tech or finance, it's not one of the economic hubs in the US. I even know another recent PhD graduate whose girlfriend is a travelling nurse and goes all around the country for short-term work contracts making a lot of money. They're 50% long distance I guess.
DeletePersonally, I notice in most of my friends there's a trend of someone upper class dating/marrying someone middle class, and for the upper class person the idea of long-distance or having to move is not much of an issue because money makes travel so much easier. There are those wealthy couples who have 2nd, 3rd vacation homes/passports that "split their time" between two or more cities. My best friend's parents are financing her move to Canada, and the two PhD students I talked about also have wealthy parents. My boyfriend is middle class and grew up middle class(public school + public university + student loans). The funny thing is his dad got wealthy after he finished university, but he says his family doesn't act as posh as their income because the money came late in life. He basically describes his parents as "rednecks with money." I suppose it's too early in the relationship to make plans together, we'll see how it goes. With everything going on in my life, it's actually refreshing to talk about a simple "normal" topic like how to fit careers and relationships together.
Well the way I see it, some people love big cities like New York and London whilst others totally hate them and would much rather have a quieter lifestyle in a house, somewhere in the countryside. You have to think about what is right for you, what would make you happy and what is the path to happiness for you (and your bf).
DeleteBtw since this post is about ageism and unfairness in employment, I thought I'd share that today I ran into an undergrad who complained that someone from a company he applied for an internship told him they weren't really gonna read the applications. This representative said they already had impressive candidates they knew from networking events they wanted to hire, and only posted the job ad because they legally had to advertise the position. He was so distraught, saying "isn't that unfair?!" and I didn't know how to respond except "well, life is unfair." It sucks to learn that as a young 20 year old, but better to learn at 20 than 50+ like Michael in the BBC article. There were other things he complained about, like how other candidates had experience on their CV he didn't learn in school. But what can you do to help yourself aside from learning to network more and doing side projects outside of school? Those people did put in the extra work to travel to meet people and study things not covered at university, so I think they deserve to get the job over someone who only focused on their classes and GPA. The person on reddit who bragged about landing a job at a hedge fund making half a million/year had to study a lot of specialized math topics not covered in university, along with doing FAANG internships. This fellow student I know is young and naive, so I tried not to be overly harsh in getting my message across, but I hope he'll take my advice and it'll help him in the long run.
DeleteI guess he didn't get the memo that life indeed isn't fair and that the playing field isn't level at all, but you and I knew that already. He will have to learn, some people will learn and adapt, others won't and just feel like the whole world hates them etc. I have this friend (and he used to read my blog regularly as well) and he had a bad relationship some years ago and broke up in 2016 - he still posts a lot of angry stuff on social media and I'm like, does he thinks his ex is reading all this or is he just venting his anger? And if it is the latter, then for how long does he intend to keep this up for this has gone on for a long time. I am human of course, once in a while we just want to sulk in the corner, listen to Taylor Swift's Anti Hero then move on with our lives but he just never seems to move out of that mode and has been stuck there for years. I hope your young student friend doesn't get stuck in that mode either but he learns to help himself.
DeleteYeah that's the thing, one can complain to high heaven they were dealt worse cards than other people, but it's not like God is gonna part the clouds and make everything right after a rant. The only thing you can do is find out what works and do it. I also have other friends who like to complain that even that doesn't work because of "survivorship bias", but then we're back to square one with the complaints of life being unfair and that any effort is futile. I don't think what happened to me that I have to leave academia soon is fair either, but what can I do aside from sit in the library and study derivatives trading and work on my portfolio. Likewise I doubt many girls want to date your friend if all he does it bitch about his ex online. I think a better saying would be "don't play the victim", nobody wants to hire or date someone who constantly feels sorry for themselves instead of trying to make the best of a bad situation.
DeleteI have realized that crying 'it's not fair' doesn't solve any of life's problems because if it did, I'd be the first to cry you a massive bucket of tears right now.
DeleteY'know one of my friends just told me they had bipolar disorder, and another mentioned they have depression. I have mild autism and one abusive parent. Many people are dealt wildly different cards. Tears don't solve anything yeah.
DeleteHey I'm getting on in age as well, 43 this year. I have already changed jobs 3 times in the last 2 years so I have you beat lol.
ReplyDeleteBut I find as I gain experience I am being paid more and more. I can find work for up to $80/hr which is peanuts compared to what you are earning but still way above the median SG wage.