Hi there, happy new year everyone! Sorry for the radio silence, I've been away in Italy. I got into a conversation with a friend recently about what I thought about an MBA programme so I decided turn our conversation into a Q&A here about MBAs. My friend does have an MBA, I don't - he was asking on behalf of another younger friend who was interested in doing one but wanted to make sure that he made the right decision given the time and cost involved in the process. So I hope the Q&A format would help address many of the questions that those of you considering MBAs to help your career.
Q: How much does it cost?
A: It varies on which university you go to - some countries are considerably more expensive than others. So take the UK for example, the cost of your MBA programme can start from about £13,000 to £106,540 and that's a massive range. It's not like there's a standard price - it is what the universities think they can charge and still attract students to run the programme. Obviously the programmes with the best reputation are the ones who charge the most whilst the ones that charge less would probably make most employers think, where's this university? I never even knew they had a business school there. Likewise in the US, there's a similarly huge price range from US$55,000 to $161,000 and if you went to somewhere like India or the Philippines you could get an MBA there for a fraction of even the cheapest British or American MBA. But obviously, you get what you pay for - a very cheap MBA from an unknown business school is never going to command the respect you are yearning for. Need I state the obvious? With MBAs, you will get what you pay for.
Q: How long does it take?
A: For MBAs, it usually takes between 12 to 24 months, but again this varies country to country, university to university.
Q: Why do some universities charge so much more than others?
A: It's the prestige factor. Why would Hermes or Chanel charge you $250,000 for one of their special edition handbags when the cost of it is a tiny fraction of that price? The ridiculously expensive price tag makes the handbag out of reach for most people, making it a luxury item exclusively for the very rich. An MBA that costs that much has that same kind of prestige factor. This keeps poor people out of that MBA programme and at this point, it's not about granting the deserving poor an education - it's got nothing to do with merit but it is creating a luxury brand in education to send the right signals. Thus when a Hollywood actress turns up on the red carpet event holding a handbag that costs $250,000, she is not trying to show you that she has found a great bargain; no, she is trying to tell you that she is so rich and successful that she can afford a hideously overpriced item like that. Not all universities can simply price their MBA programmes like that an get away with it. If a university in the middle of the league table or even lower down the league table tried to ask for this kind of fees, people would just laugh at them and say, "who do you think you are, you're not Harvard Business School." So the playing field is not level at all - even if you're academically brilliant and you have what it takes to gain a place at Harvard Business School's MBA programme, you still have to find the money to pay their high fees which doesn't even include the cost of supporting yourself for the time you're a student again. On top of that, there's the income you are forgoing by putting your career on pause for the duration of the MBA, hence it's a very high price to pay indeed.
Q: Yes I get it, it's very expensive but surely it's worth it? Otherwise why would people do it?
A: That's a complex question, the fact that you can afford something that expensive probably means that you're so rich you're not caring about the return on your investment. When you buy a luxury item, such as a $250,000 handbag, you're not going to care so much about whether you've gotten a good deal on it or not. Rather, the value it gives you is the image you're selling that you're so filthy rich you can blow that amount of money on just a handbag to attend a party and then be seen at the next party with a different but equally expensive handbag. Thus when you spend that kind of money, you don't care about the return on your investment, it's about sending out a statement. There are cheaper courses available the same way you can get much cheaper handbags and accessories, but some rich people feel the need to demonstrate that they can spend this kind of money - it is the semantics of money. Why would you desire to drink a very expensive brand of mineral water when you can get much cheaper brands or even tap water? In a country like India or Sudan, you have to buy bottled water as drinking tap water would make you sick but why would someone in Japan or America pay US$1,390 for the one liter bottle of luxury mineral water? They would precisely because it is that expensive.
Q: But you're blurring the lines between education and luxury - isn't this is about education?
A: Yes but this is about business, an MBA is about teaching you about how to succeed in the business world rather than cramming your head with facts about an academic discipline like chemistry or maths. When I was in Dubai last November, one of our partners hosted a golf day for their clients. I didn't take part as I had no desire to play golf in the Dubai heat. There are cheaper ways to do networking events rather that a golf day at one of Dubai's most exclusive golf clubs but they wanted to spend the money to send that message to their clients that this is the kind of company they are. They weren't going to convince their clients to invest with them by sitting them in a room and lecturing them about the technicalities of the investment project as if they were students at university - no, in my line of business, it is about building rapport and earning trust over activities like golf as doing business isn't an academic discipline, but an art form.
A: No, not necessarily, you're looking at it the wrong way. You buy an expensive luxury item like a Porsche because you are very rich and can afford it - however, buying a Porsche doesn't make you rich. You shouldn't make the mistake of looking at a rich man with a Porsche and come to the conclusion that it was the purchase of that luxury car that made him become rich. The fact is if you can afford to find the money to do a prestigious MBA programme then you're already rich. What would be a recipe for disaster is if you are poor, working class, your career is going nowhere and you think that getting an MBA would somehow change everything - so you do something crazy like convince your parents to sell their house to pay for your MBA. The fact is a top MBA programme like the one at Harvard Business School is so popular, they only accept approximately 12.5% of all applicants so the people who have accepted do all already have a great degree plus enough relevant working experience to make their CV very impressive at that stage, so whether they complete this MBA programme or not, they're likely to become successful anyway. Thus it is like looking at the people who have gained admission to Oxford university: the competition for the very limited number of places is so intense that the university will only accept the very best applicants who are clearly outstanding individuals. However, whether or not they actually go on to finish the degree or how they perform on the degree course is irrelevant. These university courses cannot make you intelligent and I need to be blunt here: it cannot cure stupidity - either you are already of that calibre or you're not. If you've lost the genetic lottery and were born stupid, then tough shit - no university in the world can fix that problem. If we were to take someone who has worked in retail all their lives and enrolled them in an MBA programme, would they emerge from that ready to become the boss of a company? No it doesn't work like that in the business world.
Q: Is it really that good for networking? People talk a lot about the networking opportunities.
A: This is really one of the biggest myths of MBAs! Allow me to give you an analogy on a smaller scale: recently, I attended a conference in London. I showed up at the event and there were loads of people from my industry present at the event. Technically speaking, you could say that the event was great for networking of course but was it for everyone? No - you needed to be thick skinned, walk up to strangers, introduce yourself and that is actually a daunting task for people who are quite nervous and shy. The saying that comes to mind is this: "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink". Some people are brilliant in such situations and they have such good social skills that enable them to take full advantage of the networking opportunities whilst others could be shy and simply stare at their phones throughout the event to avoid talking to strangers. So the MBA does provide networking opportunities, but it doesn't give you lessons in social skills - that's not part of the syllabus. In fact, the kind of social skills that enables you to make new friends in such situations are developed very early in life when we are children. If you don't already possess such social skills by the time you consider doing an MBA, well then the MBA programme cannot fix that problem. But by the same token, if you do already have excellent social skills and you are brilliant at networking, then you really don't need to do an MBA before the networking begins - you can start building a professional network of business contacts right now: you can start online through Linkedin or take part in events and conferences relevant to your industry. The business school isn't going to guarantee that your classmates on the MBA course are going to like you in any case - they could simply turn around and say, "he's such a weirdo with no social skills. I don't like him." There isn't a teacher in this kind of situation to persuade the others to give the weirdo a chance: you're on your own on that front, even on an MBA course! How much you benefit from this networking aspect of the MBA depends on your social skills and therein lies the catch-22 situation.
A: If you already have the money to do a prestigious MBA programme, if you have what it takes to gain admission into somewhere like Harvard Business School and you have the excellent social skills to take full advantage of the networking opportunities there then ironically you don't need the MBA there to do even better in your career as you have already everything you need. If you are not quite there yet - say you are not earning that much, you're not getting that promotion you crave, you feel your career is not going anywhere and your social skills are lacking, then guess what? You're not going to get into one of these prestigious MBA programmes and even if you do compromise and settle for an MBA at one of the less well known business schools, then that's hardly going to deliver the kind of transformation you are hoping for. Let's take the networking aspect for example - if you settled for a second rate MBA at a business school that doesn't have very stringent admission requirements, then you're hardly going to be rubbing shoulders with future CEOs who are going to change the business world. Instead you're going to be networking with other losers desperate for someone else to help them and it'll be the blind leading the blind. The people who need the most help are never going to get admission into Harvard Business School and ironically, the MBA students there are the ones who need the least help. Allow me to give you an analogy: imagine there's been a terrible drought in the horn of Africa and there is famine. You are sent to a remote part of Somalia to distribute food aid to those who are on the brink of starvation but when you get there, the people who rush to you for food are those who are strong enough to fight their way to the front of the queue whilst those who are most sick and weak are nowhere to be seen. So do you give the food to those at the front of the queue even if they're the ones who need it the least or do you try to find those who are the weakest and sickest to help?
Thus in this case, do you simply do the easiest thing which is to give the food to the people who have fought their way to the front of the queue in the hope that if you give them enough, they will take it home and share it with their sick and weak relatives? You know that it will be impossible to literally go door to door, village to village, to try to look for every sick and starving person in the area to feed - you have supplies but a limited crew with you, you know you don't have the manpower to help everybody in this disaster zone. Giving the food to those at the front of the queue may not be a perfect solution, but it is the most efficient one you have. Well in the case of the elite business school, they're adopting the same approach - if you were to look at a big company, there will be a very small number of bosses in management and then there are a bit more in middle management followed by many at the bottom of the food chain. This pyramid shaped structure is the norm today, hence when a decision have to be made about a company's strategic direction, that decision is taken by the big bosses at the top rather than put to a vote involving everyone who works there. Thus if we accept that most people are never going to become the bosses at the top of the food chain, then why bother trying to train those who were never destined for the top in the first place? It might be some kind of social experiment that would be a good formula for a reality TV show: Joe is your typical average working class guy who is a taxi driver but we're going to enroll him in the business school elite training programme and let's see if Joe can make it in the business world! It does come across as a completely bizarre and unrealistic aim, it feels even cruel to set someone like Joe up to fail miserably, only to see him go back to driving a taxi at the end of the programme. I would think that the elite business schools are doing these average people a favour by telling them, "sorry, this is not for you, we only train the best of the best, we're not magicians who can transform working class folks like you into top business leaders like Elon Musk - not gonna happen."
Q: But what if I am one of those average guys who just wants to get some help to further advance my career?
A: Well, then I would recommend that you don't see an MBA as the solution to all your problems - a lot of these problems can be fixed without going to a university and asking a teacher, "I don't know how to do this, teach me how to do it!" That's a very child like approach to the challenge; yeah if you have a 12 year old who needs to learn Spanish, then obviously you send the kid to a class. If you have a 17 year old teenager who needs to learn how to drive then logically you will get that teenager driving lessons with a driving instructor. But if you're already an adult and you need to improve your business acumen, then there's two ways to look at this challenge: the first is to do what I did - I have been figuring a lot of stuff out for myself over the years in banking. The information is out there, let's say I stumble upon a concept like EBITDA - I don't know what that means. Do I sign up for an MBA and wait for someone to explain it to me or do I just go online and find out? I've been opting for the latter all my life. Life is too short to wait for someone else to teach me everything I need to know to get on in life, I just do it myself. The second option is to say, "I don't like having to figure stuff out for myself, I prefer following a routine." In that case, then you can go into something like accountancy where you have to follow a routine to perform your job well and there are many exams to take in order to become a highly qualified accountant who can earn a lot of money. But that means you should be doing those accountancy exams rather than an MBA. As in the analogy with delivering the food aid to Somalia where there is a famine, the people who are going to benefit the most from the MBA are the ones who need the least amount of help in order to succeed in the business world. Those who enroll in second-rate MBA programmes from less prestigious business schools are going to see a much poorer return on their investment - even if they are the ones who need the most help to improve their career prospects.
Q: Go on, be blunt, say what you're really thinking...
A: Okay, I have come across very ordinary, average individuals who have done absolutely nothing in their entire lives to prove that they are exceptional. They may be in their 30s, but they have never ever won an award, a scholarship, a gold medal, nothing. They then think, damn I really need something to boost my CV to prove that I am capable of more, so they see this MBA as a miracle solution that will fix everything that has gone wrong in their lives so far and that's wholly unrealistic of course. It's too little too late, an MBA is not a shortcut to success. If you've been a boring, lazy bum all your life, then getting an MBA isn't going to fix that. To state the obvious, we need to manage your expectations about MBAs.
Q: Can they really teach you good leadership skills on the course?
A: No I really don't think so - leadership skills falls under the category of social skills. A lot of these social skills are picked up very early in our childhood through the way we socialize with our peers and I'm not saying it is impossible to break bad habits as adults, but I believe that if anyone dares to claim that they can teach you leadership skills on these courses, they have grossly underestimated the task they have undertaken. Hence the way someone like Harvard Business School would deal with this issue is to simply pick applicants with excellent social skills and have already demonstrate many times that they clearly have what it takes to be a great leader and if someone has poor social skills, then that will be a good reason to reject them at the interview stage. No business school would set themselves up to fail that task by trying to teach leadership skills to the worst possible students with zero social skills! If you are already dealing with a student with great social skills, it wouldn't be hard to put them through some exercises like role playing situations to help further develop their leadership skills and see great results but these are students who already have great social skills to begin with. You don't need to do an MBA to become a good leader, just go to a playground and observe a group of young kids playing amongst themselves: usually a leader would emerge in the group quite organically. And if you're not a leader, then it's no big deal. After all, not everyone wants to play that role and it's simply a personal preference where you wish to sit in the team. Personally, I tend to avoid leadership roles as I know that my efficiency to get things done can make me come across as blunt and abrupt at times, I can get away with that as a specialist or consultant, but a really good leader would be expected to be more considerate towards everyone's feelings.
Q: Will I learn how to start my own company?
A: The irony is that the key thing to start your own company involves having a sound business idea, a good team along with enough capital to get the business up and running. We can sit around and discuss what goes into the most successful formula for a new company to flourish, but if you lack any of those elements (say you can't get investors or if you don't have enough of your own money to start the business), then no amount of academic knowledge can help. Many people who have started their own companies successfully did not bother with an MBA, they learnt all the practical aspects of running the business from working in the real world rather than trying to learn it in a classroom environment - I roll my eyes when these people try to learn such business skills in the classroom environment, instead of the real world.
A: That's a flawed question. If you have an MBA from Harvard Business School, then yes of course many companies will want to hire you as they only accept the very best applicants onto their MBA programme. But if you have an MBA from the University of Middle of Nowhere Business School that no one has ever heard of, then it's not worth the paper it is printed on because they would admit any idiot onto that course as long as they can pay the fees.. Not all MBAs are equal, the same way not all degrees are equal. The key thing is the admission criteria - sorry for stating the obvious but all employers have a fundamental need: they want to hire intelligent people and they don't want to hire stupid people. If you have managed to gain admission into a very exclusive degree programme in a university like Harvard or Oxford where they only accept the best of the best, then you have fulfilled that criteria - you have proven yourself. But if you get a degree from a terrible university at the wrong end of the league table, then you've done the opposite - you have sent out the message that something went so wrong that you were rejected by every decent, respectable university and the only ones that would accept you are the dumping ground universities at the bottom of the league table, thus you are damaged goods: there's something very wrong with you and that's a big red flag to any potential employer to avoid you.
Q: Let's say I did earn myself a place in a respectable MBA programme, is it worth the investment though?
A: It is a gamble - not only are you having to pay the hefty fees, you're giving up one to two years of earnings as well so if we're looking at the MBA from Harvard Business School, that could be a figure between US$200,000 to US$250,000 depending on how much income you're sacrificing. Do you think that you would be able to gain a quarter of a million dollars more in earnings if you invest in this MBA? A lot of that depends on what you make of the experience and it's not about learning stuff at this stage, it's a lot more about networking and making valuable connections. If I were to put you in a discussion with the son of a multi-billionaire tycoon, would you be able to establish rapport and turn that rich son into your good friend by the end of the week? Or would that rich son walk away thinking, "urgh, he's so working class, I have nothing in common with him. Sure, I'm going to be polite during the classes but I will go out of my way to avoid him." If it's going to be the latter, then you are wasting your time and money pursuing the MBA as that is the most vital aspect of all.
Q: Have you spoken to people with MBAs? What do they say about the experience?
A: Yes I have and I got mixed reviews as expected of course. Whilst they said that they had learnt a lot of useful skills during the programme, they also conceded that they could have learnt a lot of that without having enrolled in the MBA programme. Some also remarked that the marketing literature often over promises the benefits of the MBA; the networking was very hit and miss - a lot of that depended on your skill to make the most of the opportunities presented. Some of their classmates missed out on so much because they just lacked the social skills to make friends on the course and that was certainly something the business school could not fix - it was like, you're an intelligent adult, not an 8 year old child, so go figure it out for yourself. Perhaps the most obvious point they mentioned was that those who were already very successful before the MBA went on to be even more successful and those who were not successful but were hoping for some kind of magical transformation never got that miracle they hoped for. There are no shortcuts in life.
Okay that's it from me on this topic, I cannot categorically say "MBAs are simply wonderful" or "they're a total waste of time" because there are so many factors and variables involved and that's why I hope this blog post would help you understand the situation, so you can then make your own cost benefit analysis about whether an MBA is right for you. If you do have any questions about the issue, please leave a comment below, let's chat about it. Many thanks for reading.
Hey Alex. Wow MBAs are extremely expensive, even more than a typical undergraduate degree. This question of tuition vs. ROI is very interesting when it comes to the American education system where college is crazy expensive. I have a friend who got into a top 20 university in the US for a bachelor's degree in math. However, this university was a private university(one of the good ones), and offered him zero scholarships. They were going to charge him the full tuition bill of $50k usd/year, not including living costs. So naturally he turned it down because his parents are only middle class, and settled for a state university which wasn't as well known for the cheaper costs. I asked him if he regretted turning down a degree which would have cost $300k rather than his $30k degree, since he said he had difficulty finding a job after graduation and had to enroll in a masters program at a more prestigious university. He's fine now, since the masters degree didn't cost him anything and was a top 5 program in the country, and he has $270k less debt. But had he gone to work at Wallstreet using the $300k household name degree math, he could've paid back the debt very quickly. However, he told me he has no interest in finance, and the job he works now isn't as lucrative. I suppose graduating with the least debt rather than the more valuable degree was more important for him.
ReplyDeleteMy personal opinion... I think an MBA is only for people who didn't go to a well-known undergrad university and want to use the MBA to get a more prestigious university's name attached to themselves for applying to jobs. Work experience also works, but it takes more street smarts to get yourself the right opportunities instead of just handing over 100 grand to a name-brand university. However like you said, if you don't have good social skills then a 100 grand degree is not going to fix that. I suppose it's the lazier option, not necessarily the best option. It's like how someone with a bit more time and effort can book the cheapest flights and hotels when going on vacation, rather than someone who just takes the first item that appears in their google search.
Hey Alex. Regarding your career, I would say it never hurts to ask. With good enough social skills you can at least prod and try to guess whether someone is willing to let you do something without outright asking. If they are receptive, then go for it. Else, you have to think of yourself and what you want to do with your life, not what someone else wants you to do that benefits them. Then you go can go network and find out who has the dream job you want, ask them how they got there, and try to plan an exit strategy.
DeleteI wouldn't say it's extremely clearcut that people always get into the university that their talent level says they deserve. I mean my friend was good enough for a very good school, but just didn't have the money to go. Harvard is on the level of Oxbridge but very expensive y'know? Maybe the situation is different in the UK where Oxbridge costs the same as a university on the other end of the league table, and only A level results matter when getting into schools. But there are also personal circumstances to consider. Maybe someone was from such a poor family they didn't have as much time to study for A levels because they had to work to survive. But after they went to university and had student loans to cover their living expenses they had more time to invest in themselves, but are just missing the name brand degree. But that segment of the population that would benefit from an MBA is so niche that it's hard to conclude that an MBA is objectively worth the sticker price to everyone. It's not the same as say the price of essentials like a sack of rice or a gallon of washing detergent which everyone needs. Pricing an MBA is more like pricing a piece of fine art, depends on the buyer!
Oh boy so much happening at work now but thanks for your chat earlier. I'll update you as to what is gonna happen but things are moving crazy fast now.
DeleteYeah but back to the topic of the MBA, I agree with what you said - it varies from person to person. It does come at a massive cost of course and I do worry that some young people will convince their parents to pay for it, so they don't realize what a huge price tag it comes with if they pass that burden onto their parents. They might be a lot more careful in thinking of what the consequences are and what the ROI is if they had to find the money for it themselves.
DeleteI feel you about the ROI. Unfortunately it's just pretty tough for some young people to get on the white collar career ladder if they didn't go to a top school. Imagine trying to distinguish yourself among applicants with similar degrees from the wrong end of the league table. Sometimes the best solution is just to move to a less crowded field, desperate for applicants. An MBA sounds so generic it's definitely targeting jobs in crowded fields.
DeleteWell the way I look at it, even if you do have a degree from a good university - so what? There are so many applicants also from good universities too. You need that little something extra on top of the degree to get the attention of the person willing to give you that chance, to get your foot in the door. I usually see social skills, being able to connect with people in an interview, getting a referral - that kind of thing usually works wonders as opposed to "look at my GPA!!"
DeleteAre you speaking from experience Alex? Yeah I think simply applying for jobs online isn't the best strategy compared to meeting with people who could hire you in person. But a lot of young people don't know that. Or if you don't go to a good school like Harvard you won't be invited to campus recruiting events where they bring in representatives of big companies. I'm going to MIT in 2 weeks for a competition. I probably won't win anything, but there'll be lots of companies there who came up with the competition questions, so I'll get to present my solutions to them and network. Anyway, this is why I think the value of any degree, MBA or otherwise, is more about connections than anything else. If you go to Oxbridge there will be a highly successful alumni network to tap into. It's not supposed to polish a turd, but give people who already have talent the connections they need to succeed.
DeleteI had this conversation with another good friend (who is like 10 years older than me, a business owner himself) and he told me that there will come to a point where you stop applying for jobs from strangers and jobs will come to you via your network - that will depend on two factors though: obviously, you need a good network of professional contacts within your industry and you have to let them know just how brilliant you are so people will wanna hire you. Applying for jobs with strangers is a thing young people fresh out of college do. And if you're in your 40s and still doing that, then something is very wrong. However, my degree/university didn't help with any of my network because I went into finance whilst my degree was in Geography & French, I don't think anyone on my course went into banking at all. But so what? I just got busy networking and making loads of friends - it's worked so far.
DeleteYeah my dad told me the same thing, if you are still applying for jobs by middle age, then you must really live under a rock. I've found that repeat meetings are probably necessary before I ask to connect with someone on Linkedin. If you see the same people over and over at the same networking events, then they don't mind connecting. But we're talking about very highly paid jobs. I think a truck driver in their 40s or a convenience store manager probably doesn't have as many chances to network, at least not with someone who's in a position to hire them.
DeleteThis story comes to mind https://limpehft.blogspot.com/2019/08/a-tale-of-two-johns-same-name-different.html
DeleteHey Alex. Since you've been telling me about things happening at work, it makes me think of the two Johns in that post. John 1 is clearly not being rewarded for keeping his head down in one job. There needs to be an element of risk-taking to rise up the ranks. I think John 2 is successful because he is innovative in a way where he finds underlooked niches everytime he changed jobs. Remember no company wants to make you rich, instead they want to pay you as little as possible while getting the most out of you. So sometimes making a change to a thing totally different could be the right move.
DeleteAlso sometimes I wonder how certain people even afford to live in London considering a one bedroom can cost 3000 usd/month. Do they just live with their parents like in Sg? Or a lot of roommates? Especially if it was someone who wasn't born in London and just moved there to look for work. That sounds extremely difficult unless they have substantial savings.
Hi Amanda, in a nutshell, I resolved things at work and got what I wanted. I'll save the details for another time but I'm happy enough with the outcome and am very relieved indeed today. But I think in terms of companies wanting to get the most out of you whilst paying you the least, I think it depends really. I am in a better position to negotiate a better deal with my employers and have far more bargaining power given the expertise I have and what I can bring to the table (the bottom line is they still wanna work with me regardless because I am good at what I do) whilst with John, I'm sorry a sales manager in a retail position? That's not that skilled or special, he is replaceable. Specializing is key and that was John's downfall and sigh, I wish him well. I've not seen him since he's left London and it's been 3 years. As for living in London, yeah the way ahead is a shared house: so you get a house/big apartment with 3 or 4 bedrooms, you share the kitchen, bathroom and living room. That way you can get away with a much lower rent as opposed to insisting on renting a 1 bedroom apartment for yourself - that's simply out of reach for a lot of young people.
DeleteFunny thing was my boss asked me a weird question yesterday. He asked, imagine if a young person has just graduated from university in London, how long would it take them to get a job? I asked well it depends on so many things, where do I begin?
DeleteOh yeah, supply and demand is a factor too. Even if companies want more out of an employee, if there are more companies looking to hire for a certain expertise than experts available, then the companies have to acquiesce. Will you write a post about your experience negotiating?
DeleteYeah John 1 didn't pick a career where he wasn't easily replaceable. It's sad he stayed in a working class career till his 50s, but that happens to a lot of working class people trapped in poverty. I just hope he's happier in Newcastle. The thing about the post you wrote was that John 1 moved to London to "make it." But working in retail is not how you make it in London given the high living costs. Maybe moving to London to work in finance, tech, fashion, or even in football would be something you can't do in a smaller town.
That is such a vague and open ended question. It depends on what they studied, the rank of the university, and their ability to network. Also it depends on what kind of job they're willing to settle for. Someone gunning for a big tech firm or a big bank is gonna take a while waiting for the right offer compared to someone willing to settle for being an Uber driver.
Btw I'm going to Boston in a few weeks for that competition, I even got my university to pay for the entire trip. Gonna see lots of snow! I just hope I can impress the company representatives there with my ideas. Especially since I'm currently looking for a job at the same companies. Guess this will be my audition.
He asked that question because we had a meeting with this guy, let's call him Mr Ab. I told my boss I trust Mr Ab and my boss wanted to know why - I told him that Mr Ab came from a poor family like me and had to prove himself every single step of the way in order to get to where he is today, nothing was handed over to him on a silver platter like the way rich kids can get jobs through their parents' connections - that was why my boss was like but London is a city of opportunity, surely if you're young, you're a graduate, you're smart, you're willing to work hard then there will be chances to prove yourself right? Then I realized, you're so rich you have no idea what normal ordinary folks like me had to do to prove myself to get my foot in the door, do you? Roll eyes. Have fun in Boston!
DeleteIf I may clarify, I'm not trusting Mr Ab because he came from a poor working class family like me, but more to the point that I know he has had to prove himself every step of the way to get to where he is today (the CEO of a successful company) and thus by that token, he is "tried and tested". The son of a rich man who is given a nice job on the other hand isn't tried and tested the same way Mr Ab was - in fact, he used his privileged position to get a nice job whilst by passing any other "tests" that Mr Ab an myself were subjected to. I am wary of people who bypass the 'tests' whilst I trust people who are 'tried & tested' like Mr Ab.
DeleteYeah the way your boss sounds is extremely naive and sheltered. I used to think like that too, it's hard to escape that bubble unless you get to know people who didn't grow up wealthy. The wealthy just take for granted that people will recognize them and opportunities will be handed to them. They don't understand what it means to be replaceable and anonymous. Thanks! I wish I had more time to sightsee but I'll have to do a 3 day coding challenge so I'll mostly be busy coding. Maybe next time when I have a better paid job.
DeleteOh for sure the working class have had to prove themselves way more. I dunno if you've heard of the crypto collapse going on lately, but the 30 year old CEO of a crypto exchange found to be stealing $8 billion worth of customer funds walks around in messy hair, baggy shirts, baggy jeans. Even plays videogames during investor meetings. When I first saw him I knew he could only get away with that because he grew up rich. A working class person wouldn't dare. And then he turned out to be a fraud who wasn't even a competent trader that could make money legitimately. I wasn't surprised because this person used mummy and daddy's country club friends to get successful. Didn't have to fight as hard as everyone else, but isn't even aware of that.
I hate to be a bitch Amanda, but I work in finance and it is my job to know everything that's going on in the financial world. So I rolled my eyes when you said, "I don't know if you've heard of the crypto collapse." Amanda, I'm an expert in things like that. Imagine me asking you, "I don't know if you've heard of this coding language called C++ but it is really useful."
DeleteOh, I thought everything in crypto is always collapsing so people in legit finance just ignore it haha. What do you think of crypto lending schemes? I understand the bond market has existed for ages and governments and companies use them to invest in infrastructure to turn a profit later. But with crypto lending the people that are being lent to aren't building infrastructure or doing any legitimate enterprise, instead they're just doing speculative investments on other obscure cryptocurrencies, so I dunno how that's supposed to be guaranteed to turn a profit. But that's why legit finance has tonnes of regulations, while crypto doesn't.
DeleteAnother finance thing I'd like to ask. What is your opinion on "buy now pay later"? Especially since apple is looking to get in on it. It seems touted as some innovation in lending, but to me it just looks like a way to target people with bad credit scores.
That's not logical - allow me to compare it to the whole episode about Prince Harry's latest book and the scandal resulting in the accusations he has made. Am I interested? No, not really. I've never been interested in the royal family and I see this as any other kind of celebrity gossip. But you really need to be living under a rock, cut off from the internet to be totally unaware and ignorant of Harry's latest book and that's my point - I don't live under a rock. If there's something happening in the world, I'm connected to the internet and I am aware of it. I start my day by reading the news on the BBC to see what's happening in the world and what I ought to be aware of; not just locally to me in London but all over the world. I saw there was a plane crash in Nepal today and many were killed, am I particularly interested in plane crashes or Nepal? Not particularly but I am interested in knowing what's happening in the world and if it's big enough news to make it onto the BBC's bulletin, then it's on my radar. The whole crash episode with FTX/Crypto is big news affecting my industry and hence if I know about the plane crash in Nepal, can you imagine just how much detail I know about what happened with FTX? And more to the point, let this be a lesson in social skills 101 - never ever begin a topic with "I don't know if you've heard about this..." this assumes that you think the other person doesn't know and if this person happens to know a lot about it, then you're going to get a negative, even angry response like, "how dare you suggest I don't know about it when I know so much about it." Hell no. Don't go there. You have everything to lose and absolutely nothing to gain by using that choice of words. I would never ever use that choice of words even if I think there's a possibility that the other party may not know about the subject - why? Again, everything to lose, nothing to gain, terrible choice of words. Delete that sentence construction from your memory - it's a disaster waiting to happen, it's a recipe for disaster. So if you wish to raise a topic, you can simply do what you did the second time round, "what do you think about crypto lending schemes?" That's a neutral way to raise the topic and if I happen to know nothing about it, allow me to respond according but make no assumptions on your part about how much or little I may or may not know about the topic in question.
DeleteAs for both crypto lending and buy now pay later, your analysis is right - people who can't afford nice stuff shouldn't get into debt, they should work harder and earn more money to afford the things they desire.
DeleteAhh okay, thanks for the explanation. I get why that can step on some toes if someone has heard of something, even if I don't know to what extent they follow it. To me crypto lending and buy now pay later indicates there's a lot of greed going on in unregulated finance. One can't just make money by getting any borrower to agree to pay back a sum of money without a credit check and call it "innovation." Though I acknowledge crypto and buy now pay later lends money to people who can't usually get loans from regular banks, and credit scores do discriminate against the poor. But completely removing regulations isn't the answer. I see why you have to answer to a compliance officer in your line of work. Greed can go horribly wrong in finance.
DeleteI would rather risk talking about a topic or concept as if the other person is already aware of it. I'll give you an example, I once took part in a survey about urban planning and I was in the position where I wanted to raise the point about 'stroads' which is a concept in urban planning. I calculated, they wouldn't send me someone who knew nothing about urban planning to interview me, so I decided to just talk about stroads as if she knew exactly what it was and she had to say, "sorry, what's that word, can you spell it for me and what does it mean?"I would rather have that happen than for me to risk insulting her by asking her if she knew about the concept of 'stroads'. So this way, she was a little embarrassed that she wasn't familiar with stroads but that was a far better outcome than running the risk of causing offence. Thus sometimes, you just have to give people the benefit of the doubt that they do know and when she didn't know, I said it's okay, that's a concept that a lot of cyclists are banging on and on about and I am one of those cyclists who gets around London on a bike. So I gave a explanation/excuse as to why she didn't know about this concept - ie. it's a concept that cyclists use and if you're not a cyclist then fair enough.
DeleteThat's a good point, especially because we're talking over text so there's no way for me to show through tone of voice I'm not trying to be condescending in any way when I ask "do you know of X?" I have a coworker who likes to talk as if people haven't heard of what he's talking about, but that's not why I dislike him. I dislike him because he talks a lot before pausing and letting the other person speak, and he talks like he's showing off instead of speaking in a humble manner. And when the other person says they already know what he's talking about he'll immediately look away and stop listening to them.
DeleteI have to form a team on the very first day I arrive in Boston for the competition. They don't take individual submissions, teams must have minimum 3 members (max 5). I'll keep your advice in mind when I have to talk to complete strangers. I wouldn't wanna run the risk of assuming they don't know about a certain math/coding topic when trying to get them to like me and work with me. I want them to think that not only do I know my stuff but that I'd be easy to work with for the next 48 hours.
I tend to encounter this problem when I speak with my family - look, I haven't been back to Singapore in a while but I do use the internet to read the news and learn about what is happening there. There's social media as well so if something happens in Singapore, then my friends will post content about it and I can see their discussions etc online. I get so fed up when my family want to tell me about what's happened as if I have no idea what's going on whereas it could be a very different, far more interesting conversation if they would say, "okay Alex you've seen this happen in Singapore, what's your opinion on what happened here since you're observing it from London? How does this situation in Singapore compare to how this issue is dealt with in the UK?" No, instead they go down this route where they assume I know nothing then when I have to tell them woah woah woah I know all about what happened, then they don't know how to move the conversation on by comparing their POV to my POV. Intelligent adults can have very interesting discussions comparing and contrasting POVs whilst kids only inform each other of facts - I feel like I am talking to kids when I am speaking to my family and that's frustrating.
DeleteI think the issue with your family is the lack of probing and prompting a person for their opinion. To me it seems like they treat conversations as one-sided in telling their opinion and expecting to be praised for it rather than listening to someone else's opinion. It's a fundamentally different way of speaking. I think it's because children mostly hang out with their parents but aren't expected to ask their parents about their opinion, instead only receiving praise. It takes some growing up to get out of that mindset when speaking to someone, which is why socialization in schools with peers of the same age is so important. Your parents basically act like kids despite being elderly haha, but then again they don't have many friends.
DeleteWell my parents were primary school teachers. So the kind of questions they ask others usually are the kind which product a one-word or very simple answer like, "what happens when we mix the red paint with the white paint - what colour do we get? Pink! That's right. When we mix red and white, we get pink." The young kids at the primary school are not expected to deliver complex answers whereas at an art class at university level, the lecturer might ask a question like, "note the use of the colours in this work by Renoir, why do you think people say it comes across as very bleak despite the fact that we obviously see a lot of pink in there and pink is normally associated with girlish, playful themes? What can you tell me about the use of pink in the colour composition in that painting?" That then becomes a far more complex conversation of and exchange of opinions so when the students express their opinions, they are expected to justify these opinions, "that's interesting you should say that, can you explain why you feel that way about pink?" Good grief, my parents have never ever had a conversation like that before in their life. They never ask what other people think, their conversations are kept at the level of exchanging information rather than engaging others for their opinions. When you go to Boston, make sure you show you care about how others think and extract their opinions from them - that's how they will take you seriously as an intellectual.
DeleteI didn't think about the fact that they're primary school teachers, even though I've met many deep primary school teachers from my social circles. But then again, from what I gather your parents don't have a social life outside of school and their family. I'm just surprised you turned out to be such a complex and observant individual growing up with parents like that. Right now I have a friend who is almost 30 and has never had a girlfriend in his entire life, and his issue is that he just never asks anyone else' opinions and just blabs about his own in the hopes of getting attention. He hasn't settled yet, in fact he has very high standards for the women he goes after that eventually reject him. But he's close to it, seeing as he's resorted to using escorts.
DeleteYeah I have to be extremely careful when I get to Boston. Try to get to know complete strangers as fast as possible, don't voice any controversial opinions, while also trying to be funny and handle code in a 48 hour no-sleep environment. Back to the topic of this post, I see why you can't just apply for a job with a degree and GPA alone. It looks bad compared to someone who has work experience (or even this type of competition) which demonstrates they applied what they learned to a real world problem, were judged by companies doing this stuff everyday, and can work with total strangers successfully. On that note, an MBA doesn't seem worth that much compared to someone with work experience and one or more interesting projects during that experience.
As for how I managed to develop my social skills, let's look at one aspect of my childhood that helped me a lot - I read a lot. It was a mix of magazines, newspapers and books from the library so that exposed me to a lot of information, it enabled me to see things from different points of views. And of course, it was also due to the fact that I challenged myself to read difficult books that challenged me intellectually, rather than get by with the minimum like reading funny comics for entertainment without challenging my mind too much. It was pretty much through this exposure to a lot of information from different points of views that allowed me to become a more complex and observant individual compared to my parents. I benefited a lot from that aspect of my education and that's why I never felt compelled to learn from my parents when there was so much information I could access through reading. I didn't have to blindly copy my parents' bad example, I had other examples I had read about.
DeleteHey Alex. Yeah you do seem very well read in general. Though it must have been frustrating not to be able to discuss the things you read with your parents, or to realize they don't know more than you at a young age.
DeleteBtw, I notice on Instagram you've given some talks at certain conferences. If someone from the audience asks you a question you haven't thought of, how would you respond? Especially if it requires reading something you haven't read before.
OK good question - the answer is simple: when I am at events, most people who give speeches or talks are boring as hell. I am entertaining, I am funny, I make jokes - usually I give bi or trilingual presentations so people would normally put down their phones and go, holy shit there's a Chinese guy on stage speaking French, Spanish and English with a British accent. It is not an exam, it's not like people are going to go boo, you don't know the answer to this question. No, as long as I say something interesting, funny, enlightening and I keep the show going, people are going to forgive me and even forget the original question. So if someone asked me a question I really don't know the answer to, I'd be like, "that's a really good question and I'd be lying if I told you that I could answer it because honestly, I don't quite know what the answer should be. But if I may turn it back to you, why do you ask this question?" See? I have just dealt with it by getting him to change the topic, I am forcing him to explain why he has asked the question in the first place. So if he says, "I'd like to see if this is going to be the solution that I've been hoping for to solve this problem I face." Then I'd change the topic of discussion to something more general about the situation he is facing - but the key is to control the conversation by answering the question with another question, then using that to change the topic and this works if I am so interesting and entertaining, people are so busy listening to what I am telling them that they forgot what the original question was in the first place.
DeleteThat's a good answer. I guess it's more interesting than just saying "oh I don't know about that, next question." If the person asking the question put in the effort to raise their hand, then they should be more than happy to elaborate more and educate me so I can give a better answer. I wish I knew this before I gave my first invited talk, because my response was just "I dunno, next question." I like when you say "it's not an exam", the idea is to connect, not just be right all the time. It reminds me of your previous comment about the Renoir paintings.
DeleteOh I don't think admitting "I don't know, next question" would do you any favors, people are just going to say that you failed to answer the question, you didn't know the topic well enough. I couldn't bullshit my way out of it, but I knew my mission on stage was to entertain, that's why I turned it into a discussion about "why did you ask this question?" That moved the conversation along nicely to something else and as long as I am entertaining, funny and engaging as I do that, I think the audience is quite happy to say, "yeah he didn't know the answer but we still enjoyed listening to that conversation he had with the person who asked that question." You'll be amazed how low the bar is when it comes to entertaining the audience at these boring conferences, the moment someone shows a bit of personality and understands the need to entertain and engage, you get away with so much. What I lack in substance, I make up with style.
DeleteYeah true, conferences can be boring haha. A little bit of humor in the presentation is always appreciated. Btw, how would you network with company representatives to ask for a job? Or at least get a Linkedin connection? I suppose the usual things are in order like asking the person about their role at the company and if they like it and what they're there at the venue for. But how do I segue into talking about myself?
DeleteI treat it like a social event rather than have a specific agenda about "I must get a job out of this". You will get along with some people better than others, so just relax and get to know people as friends first and foremost, be interested in what they do, see if you can get along with them and if you have anything in common before considering anything related to work. I am quite laid back about this but I don't believe desperation or being overly eager helps at all.
DeleteOh okay, just treat it as a place I'm getting to know people, wherever they work at. It's also nice to make friends with the other competition participants. Also, they're gonna give me tour of the campus! I'm looking forward to that, especially during the winter when it's snowing.
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