Hello again guys, in my fifth post inspired from my recent trip to Dubai, I'd like to talk about the languages used in Dubai as it is hardly straightforward situation there. So the official language of the UAE is Arabic and that's it, there's no other language that has any official status there. After all, it is the United Arab Emirates so of course they speak Arabic, right? Just like the way they speak Japanese in Japan, French in France, Swedish in Sweden and Thai in Thailand, right? No it is not - the situation there is more like Wales where only a small minority of the population speaks the official language and everyone else just speaks English. The UAE is officially 89% expatriate with only 11% of the population holding local UAE citizenship. Whilst some of the migrant workers from other Arabic speaking countries like Egypt and Morocco can converse with the locals in Arabic, the majority of the 89% of migrant workers/expatriates don't speak any Arabic and thus everyone, locals, expatriates and tourists alike would just default to English as a lingua franca. So if you were to walk down the street in Dubai, the signs will probably be in Arabic and English - that's a feature of life in Dubai, the sign has got to be in Arabic as it is the official language but few people can read that sign in Arabic, so an English translation will always be provided. The local population is extremely well educated in any case and all learn English to a very high standard, thus this is a very English speaking country - most tourists who visit Dubai like the fact that they can get everything done in English without having to speak another language. Except of course, the situation is never that straight forward, so let's examine the various languages that are spoken in the UAE. I've decided to discuss this across the entire country rather than just Dubai per se, as it is much easier for me to get hold of statistics for the entire country.
Arabic عربي
As discussed above, Arabic is spoken by the 11% of the local UAE population along with the other migrant workers from other countries such as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia and Morocco. This actually raises the percentage of the population who speak Arabic to about 24% which is more than double the figure of 11%, but it is still not a lingua franca. The local dialect of Arabic spoken in Dubai is known as Gulf Arabic, that's vastly different from dialects spoken in places like Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia and even has significant differences compared to the Levant dialects from places like Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. Most migrant workers and expatriates in Dubai make little or no effort to learn Arabic as they are more than likely to interact with other foreigners who doesn't speak Arabic there. On the very few occasions when I did encounter Arab people at the airport and at mosques, I spoke to them in Arabic and they simply replied in English. I was disappointed that it wasn't quite the kind of warm reception I received in other Arabic speaking countries like Oman, Tunisia and Morocco, where the locals were genuinely impressed that this Chinese looking guy can speak some Arabic.
English
Ironically, whilst English has no official status in the UAE, it is the most spoken language there and it is the de facto lingua franca. All signs are in English, you can walk into a train station or a bus station and speak to the staff there in English with no trouble at all. Menus in restaurants are in English and if you were to get into a taxi, rather than figure out which Asian language your taxi driver spoke, you simply defaulted to English to communicate. And when you ask for a receipt for that taxi journey, it would be printed in English of course. But does everyone speak English? It depends on where you draw the line. There are about half a million native English speakers in the UAE from countries like the UK, Canada, USA, New Zealand, Ireland and Australia - they make up just about 5% of the population of the UAE. But wait, I have excluded people like the Swiss, Dutch and Swedish expatriates who speak English totally fluently, I have also excluded the extremely rich and well educated local UAE people who do speak English fluently as well. I have also excluded expatriates from places like Hong Kong, Singapore and Malaysia who do speak English but are generally not regarded as native English speakers. Then we have the Filipinos who are 7% of the entire population of the UAE - many of them work in jobs where they are valued for their English skills, thus they would be the receptionist at an office or the front desk staff at a hotel where work in customer-facing roles. Thus isn't it totally racist to exclude them from these statistics? So whilst not all Filipinos in the Philippines speak English fluently, the percentage who can speak English to an extremely high standard amongst the Filipino community in the UAE is actually very high. So I am in a bit of a pickle here - who do I choose to include and whom do I exclude then? There are of course the many unskilled migrant workers who are slaving away doing hard labour on the construction sites in the UAE and they tend to speak very little or no English.
Let's take the Pakistani community as a case study: Pakistan is a former British colony and they make up a massive 15% of the population of the UAE. But it would be so ridiculous to treat the Pakistani community in the UAE as a monolithic entity - the well educated Pakistanis would be in white collar jobs like engineers, accountants and business owners. Then next you have those who have had some education and can speak some English but not enough to land themselves in jobs like working in a shop where they have to serve the tourists buying souvenirs. Then at the bottom of the food chain, you have the most uneducated Pakistanis who speak very little or no English at all and they have to do the most physically demanding jobs such as watering the plants in the gardens or working on construction sites in the middle of the summer, when the temperatures can easily exceed 45 degrees at lunch time. Clearly the ability to speak some English will enable these Pakistani migrant workers to access much better paid jobs - wouldn't you rather work in an air-conditioned department store when the summers get so hot? I do remember trying to communicate with a Pakistani taxi driver - his English was very limited, but nonetheless, he knew how to enter the address into the GPS system and follow the instructions to get us to our destination. When I tried to engage him in basic conversation in English, he struggled to understand English and it was clear that we weren't going to chat much. Even my Pakistani tour guide on the desert safari who seemed to have a better grasp of English couldn't veer off script - he had memorized these stories to tell us about the desert and to describe the various activities. But the moment I tried to ask him a far more complex question about the political situation in Dubai, even if he understood my question, he simply didn't have the vocabulary to offer me a cogent reply and that was frustrating; I was interested in what he had to say but he couldn't express himself in English.
After English, the next most spoken language in the UAE is Hindi/Urdu. Most linguists who class this as one language as both languages are mutually intelligible, despite the fact that they are written with different scripts in India and Pakistan. In India, this language is known as Hindi whilst in Pakistan, they call it Urdu - the two languages are also written with different alphabet systems as well, but a Pakistani person can enjoy a Bollywood film in Hindi without subtitles and vice versa. Now it is hard to get actual percentages of how many people in the UAE speak Hindi/Urdu given that not all Indians speak Hindi (there are plenty of other Indian languages like Bengali, Tamil, Telugu, Punjabi and Gujarati just to name a few and Pakistan is just as linguistically diverse with languages like Pashto, Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki and Balochi. Nonetheless, Hindi/Urdu are the most widely spoken local languages in India and Pakistan respectively, thus as Indian nationals make up 35% of the population of the UAE and Pakistanis make up 15%, that's half of the population of the UAE from these two countries. So if even just half of the Indians and Pakistanis spoke Hindi/Urdu, even then that is at least 25% of the population of the UAE speaking Hindi/Urdu though that number is probably a lot higher at between 30 to 35%. Thus this easily makes it the second most spoken language in the UAE after English and it is definitely more widely spoken than Arabic. Sometimes you can see Hindi writing in some restaurants that cater primarily to the Indian community there - I had a lot of excellent Indian food in Dubai, I would usually pick the places where they offer a menu in Hindi as well. So if it is good enough to give the Indian expatriates a taste of home, then it must be authentic Indian food.
Tagalog is the official language of the Philippines. Though it is spoken as a native language by only a quarter of all Filipinos, its official status means it is used as a lingua franca by most Filipinos to communicate with each other and thus about 80% of Filipinos can speak Tagalog to a high standard. Given how linguistically diverse the Philippines is, a lingua franca will have to emerge in this situation and thus that's Tagalog, along with English but English tends to be used by the more educated, rich middle classes. Therefore you have the situation whereby many Filipinos are at least trilingual - they speak Tagalog, English and one other language like Cebuano, Ilocano, Bikol or Waray. The Filipinos who do come to work in Dubai tend to in the service industries so if you go shopping in the mall, you are more than likely to be served by English-speaking Filipino staff. Hence what you will find is that when you walk into a shop in Dubai, the staff may be quite happily chatting amongst themselves in Tagalog but the moment they engage you, they would switch to English. "Hello sir, would you like to come this way please, my colleague will serve you at till number one." The weird thing is that English is still regarded as the prestige language amongst the Filipino community in Dubai - I was at a food court in Dubai Mall when there was a lady in the queue in front of me ordering her food in English with a very strong Filipino accent and the man behind the counter had an equally strong Pinoy accent; thus I thought, if you are both obviously from the Philippines, why don't you just switch to Tagalog then? If I met someone who was obviously from China, then I would switch to Mandarin. No, but they both insisted on speaking to each other only in English and that conversation just baffled me. So when it was my turn, I said to the man behind the counter, "Mabuhay, kamusta ka?" He looked at me, smirked as if he had taken offence and then he replied (in English), "Good afternoon sir, may I take your order please?"
Russian Русский
So as mentioned in my previous post about Russians in Dubai, there is a sizable Russian community in Dubai - though not as big as the Asian communities like the Indians, Pakistanis and Filipinos, nonetheless they have stood out for all the wrong reasons for me. The war in Ukraine has created a real enemy for the first time in my life time and the fact that I do speak some Russian means that it is quite easy for me to identify Russian people when I do come across them. Whilst there are more Filipinos living and working in Dubai than Russians, there is a massive influx of approximately two million Russian tourists every year to the UAE compared to a small trickle from the Philippines. The number of Russian tourists to Dubai has increased a lot since the war in Ukraine given that most countries in the world have shut their doors to Russian tourists but Dubai is still happily welcoming them regardless. Thus as a tourist, you're likely to meet other Russian tourists when visiting the most popular tourist attractions in Dubai like the Burj Khalifa or Aquaventure on the Palm Jumeirah and you will also encounter many Russian speaking staff working at these places to serve the many Russian tourists. I have encountered situations before where Russian speaking tourists who speak very little English struggle to communicate with the Indian or Filipino staff in places like shops, restaurants and hotels - I've always been happy to step in to help translate given that I do speak Russian. In fact there are so many Russian tourists in Dubai, you often find signs in Russian at the malls and tourists attractions, where rich Russian tourists would spend a lot of money.
Let's quickly run through some of the other languages I used on this trip: obviously, I was in Dubai with my two bosses from Peru, hence the language I used most in Dubai apart from English was Spanish as this was a great opportunity for me to practice my Spanish. It is improving rapidly but the part I am still struggling with is the difference between Madrid-standard Spanish from Spain (which I speak) and the local variant from Peru which they speak. So for example, even the word for 'car' is different, I would say 'coche' as that's how they would describe a car in Madrid whilst they would say 'auto'. Even the word for something as simple as a pen (what you write with) is different: I would say 'pluma' whilst they would say 'lapicera'. It is still the same language but good grief, the differences in vocabulary and accents is huge. Fluent Spanish speakers from Spain would be able to understand South Americans with ease the same way I can understand Australian, Irish, South African or Indian people when they speak English with their own regional accents/dialects. We also had meetings with other Latinos in Dubai, so there were some meetings where we spoke in Spanish only and that had always been a huge challenge for me as they're not going to slow down or switch to English for me in such circumstances, I would be expected just to catch up with them. The other language which I did use in Dubai was French - I had some French clients in Dubai and thus it was a pleasure to demonstrate to my boss, look I know I am not fluent in Spanish (not yet anyway) but look how fluent I am in French! Even my French client told my two bosses that I spoke French like a native speaker from France and that made me feel real good. The only other language I spoke in Dubai was Welsh actually - Wales were playing in the World Cup in Qatar so I ran into a few Welsh-speaking tourists on their way home from Qatar whilst on my desert safari and they were really delighted to meet another Welsh speaker but instantly disappointed when they realized I was not at all interested in football. Nonetheless, that was most unexpected!
Which of these languages do I speak?
I'm totally fluent in French; I also speak Welsh and Spanish to a very high standard. Then the next language that I do speak is Russian, though my ability is limited in Russian. I have seven languages that I can speak to a high standard and that does include Welsh and Spanish, but Russian is outside my that golden circle of my top seven languages - it is functional, like I can ask for directions, I can buy a ticket in a train station, I can handle the kind of conversation you would have with a shopkeeper when buying an item and if it is a relatively simple conversation, then I'm fine. I do have an equally basic grasp of Arabic and Hindi/Urdu at that level, though my Russian is still better than those two other languages as I have had a lot more practice using my Russian. Then there's Tagalog - I last visited Philippines way back in 1989 and barely remember anything of it as that was so long ago. However, as I am so obsessed with learning languages, I am always trying to connect the dots with languages like that - the biggest influences on Tagalog are Spanish, English and Malay; I speak all three obviously so I can figure out a lot in Tagalog. But obviously, there are huge gaps in my knowledge of Tagalog, I don't even dare to claim to know the basics beyond a commonly used phrases - though I can understand a lot more than I can speak. It won;t be not a hard language for me to learn but unless I was visiting the Philippines for a holiday, I don't see the point in learning it. The one language that I didn't use on this trip was Mandarin though, it's not like there were no Chinese people in Dubai - I even walked past a Chinese hot pot restaurant in Dubai Marina with a menu outside in Chinese (but I didn't eat there as I had made other plans). When I was in Dubai, China was still pursuing their zero-Covid policy and therefore there were no Chinese tourists in Dubai when I was there.
Obviously I used English most of the time, followed by Spanish with my bosses and some of my Latino clients. This was followed by French, given the number of French clients I met in Dubai. Then I used some Russian, Tagalog and Hindi/Urdu on most days, then there was that one evening when I met the Welsh football fans on the desert safari and we spoke in Welsh. The one language that I barely used on this trip was Arabic - even when I was at the beautiful grand mosque of Abu Dhabi, I approached the security guard (who was dressed in traditional local clothing) and assumed that he would speak Arabic, I then asked him for directions in Arabic. His response was, "I'm sorry I'm from Pakistan, can we speak in English? What can I help you with?" If I may be honest, I was really hoping to show my bosses just how versatile I am with all these languages that I speak and I did achieve that mostly when we had the meetings with our French clients but apart from that, it was only speaking bits of Tagalog, Russian and Urdu - but there was a sense of "oh that's Alex of course he speaks all of these languages." Whilst I can't resist the urge to seek approval for my language abilities (oh you should have seen the look on my desert safari tour guide when I started speaking to him in Urdu), I must learn to stop doing that and have confidence in myself without constantly needing others to reassure me that I am good at what I do. I've yet to get confirmation from my boss but it looks like we will visit Israel some time in 2023 so that gives me plenty of time to learn Hebrew. I am currently learning Dutch - after all, I paid for an online course to brush up on my Spanish before I started this current job and now that I have done every single Spanish lesson on that programme, I decided to do the Dutch course next as it's a language that I am very interested in and I have enjoyed the Dutch course.
Okay so that's it from me on this topic, what do you think? Have you ever visited Dubai and what languages did you use there? Do you find it weird or unusual that the official language is spoken by less than a quarter of the population there whilst English which is the lingua franca has no official status in the UAE? If you were to visit Dubai, would you make any effort to brush up on your Russian, Tagalog, Hindi, Urdu or Arabic or would you just get by with English? Would you be disappointed that Dubai is so English speaking or does that make it a lot more convenient for you? How does the linguistic landscape in Dubai compare to where you live? Please leave a comment below and many thanks for reading!
Hey Alex, if 89% of the country is expats, what jobs do the locals do? Government?
ReplyDeleteMany are connected to the oil & gas industry and are in a position to collect a lot of money - then there are lucrative government positions as well as the super rich who don't need to work. Even those who aren't in any kind of good jobs can game the system so they never become poor: education is free for UAE citizens, funded by the government and that includes degrees from any university in any part of the world. So if a UAE citizen says, I wanna do this degree in California, the state pays for everything including fees, accommodation, a generous stipend, flights home regularly to visit the family etc. The student graduates and can then say, I want to do a masters degree now etc and then another etc. And if you do return to Dubai and stop studying, there are other ways to game the system, for example, if you get married and have children, the government wants to encourage that and will give married couples generous child care bonuses per year to the point where they can literally become full time parents.
DeleteWow that's a pretty good deal in exchange for not overthrowing the monarchy! But it also means they are entirely reliant on a foreign population to keep the lights on as the locals are basically a leisure class. But then again it's really hard to become emirati, basically impossible except through marriage. The thing that surprises me is I've never met an emirati abroad despite them being highly educated. But then again if their life is great in the UAE, why would they want to leave and be without those benefits?
DeleteThere are very few Emiratis around - approximately 1.4 million UAE citizens and it is virtually impossible to get citizenship through marriage. You need to be living there for 20 years, have sufficient capital (ie. no poor people), be a Muslim, be totally fluent in Arabic and then you'll be subject to a panel who will decide if you're worthy - the panel can say no without giving you a reason if they simply don't like your face. There are people with the equivalent of the Green Card (ie. permanent residency) in the UAE like American Vince but people like him would never get citizenship as he fails to tick all the boxes (not Muslim, doesn't speak Arabic fluently). The government throws money at the locals in exchange for their loyalty, so if you're an Emirati who wants to get married, the government pays for your wedding and those weddings are lavish.
DeleteHmm no wonder nobody ever tries to seek asylum in the UAE or other rich middle eastern countries, it's not even easy to immigrate as a highly skilled migrant. I get why they want to keep the population small by not allowing immigration though, each citizen is very expensive to keep. I did hear they were trying to get more locals into the private sector by implementing quotas, since the oil wealth isn't going to last forever. But that means they're probably aiming to be a Switzerland or Singapore in the future, which still have sizable foreign populations, but the locals mostly work. However, I don't think the locals are gonna like their benefits being cut in the future while being asked to work for a living haha.
DeleteLol who does qualify for citizenship then? A rich upper middle class doctor from Saudi Arabia who wants to still live in middle Eastern culture but with more liberal rules like in Dubai? They might as well move to London if they wanted the whole bonanza of liberal freedoms. That being said, the extreme example of a UAE citizen being entitled to benefits such as lavish weddings explains why even a rich country like Germany doesn't want to admit refugees, they are a huge upfront investment in terms of housing and education. As for Vince, I wonder how he can bear the extreme heat in Dubai and lack of outdoor spaces. Unless he uses his tax free wealth to go on international vacations half of year to make up for the other half living in the desert.
Delete5 kids? Jeezus not even wealthy families in southeast Asia with maids have 5 kids, it's maximum 3 because they're paying for everything with their own money. I suppose if the state can afford it then people can have as many kids as they want. But if the world switches to renewables, then these 5 kids will have to find a real job 10-20 years from now.
DeleteA very low number of new citizens can obtain citizenship each year - let's me explain it like this, the Emiratis see themselves as a very special privileged chosen tribe favored by Allah who gave them all this wonderful oil & gas on their land to make them very rich. Their explaining has nothing to do with Islam - after all, people from countries like Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria and Mauritania are Muslims too but they are extremely poor. There is this concept that Allah likes the Emiratis more than the other Muslims from poor countries so Allah made the Emiratis crazy rich whilst Allah allowed the other Muslims to starve and suffer a lot from extreme poverty. Thus the Emiratis may see other oil-rich Gulf Arabs like the Kuwaitis and the Saudis as their social equal but they see themselves as a superior race to the Pakistanis for example and really look down on the Pakistanis who are welcomed to work there but treated as second class citizens. Thus once you have this concept of a master race, a superior race that is favoured by Allah, you then have the duty of making sure the master race continues to exist for future generations so you have to make sure that the local Emiratis have loads of babies - that's why they literally get so much money from the government with each baby they have. As for Vince, he does have a job, but he works in a beautiful, lavish office with great air-conditioning. Unlike these rich Emiratis, Vince gets nothing from the government there and he has to earn his living there. The temperature in Dubai in late December is around 18 at night at 25 in the day making in very pleasant but when I was there just in November, it was 35 in the day and 26 at night and in summer, it's just stupid crazy hot reaching 50 degrees.
DeleteThus the rich people in Dubai just go from one indoor space to another - they drive from their homes to the office, then drive to the mall or to the gym, they socialize indoors in bars/clubs with power a/c and the only time they venture outdoors is to go swimming but even if it is crazy hot, once you're in the water you're cool. It's not that different from Singapore when most people avoid being outdoors, though I daresay some Singaporeans are used to it. I still have no idea how people can choose to have lunch at a hawker center with no a/c when it is 33 degrees at 1 pm. But that's just what I grew up with and I was fine with that back when I was a teenager, but I got heatstroke in Puerto Rico when I was sightseeing at 33 degrees so my body is no longer able to cope with that kind of tropical heat and humidity.
DeleteI'm not too surprised because even in other rich countries like in Western Europe and East Asia people can feel like their race is superior. But usually in those countries economic and political forces mean they have to take in new citizens and grant them the same rights, as shown by the rail workers and NHS worker strikes in the UK. It does surprise me how socialist the UAE and other rich middle eastern countries are. Sure most of the wealth is still concentrated at the top, but the Emiratis at the bottom still receive lots of benefits and can at least call themselves middle class by rich country standards. In the west socialism to the degree of giving out free land is very frowned upon, even in Scandinavian countries. I read an article recently saying the UAE is trying to persuade more Emiratis to work in the private sector instead of the public sector, and to do so they promise to top up their salary so they don't feel like they're earning less than working in government. People say that's a good argument for universal basic income, as topping up salaries means people don't feel like it's a better deal just to not work.
DeleteOh I used to not mind eating outdoors at hawker centers at 33 degrees when I lived in Sg. But at the time whenever I had to go back to America to keep my greencard it always felt cold whenever I visited New York, even in the summer. I've lived in the US for 2 years now, I probably couldn't bear Singapore if I visited again. It's winter time right now and yesterday it was -15 degrees due to the winter storm, I couldn't even walk a mile without my ears feeling numb from the cold.
The messed up part about this whole process is that I recognized it in Singapore as well - you see the UAE in its modern form didn't exist until 1971 as it was a British colony run by the white people from London! They have had 51 years of creating some kind of national identity and Singapore went through the same process. I always roll my eyes at how fucking awful the 'national songs' are in Singapore were, because they were written in primary school standard English by a CANADIAN jingle writer who was commissioned to do it - like they didn't even let a local Singaporean do it, they outsourced it to a white Canadian expat who wasn't even living in Singapore then and like lemmings, the fucking idiotic stupid Singaporeans just sang all those songs without questioning the origins of those songs. But at least that's just an example of how fucking stupid the PAP and Singaporeans tend to be when it comes to marketing and branding, I'm used to that brand of Singaporean extreme stupidity - it's fucking stupid but it's harmless at the end of the day, they are just making fools of themselves. But with the UAE, it is a lot more sinister. At least with the Jews, they have a rich history and tradition that goes back over 2000 years about how the Jews were the chosen tribe by their god etc etc etc - with the Emiratis, they came up with a very similar narrative in about 50 years about how they were Allah's chosen lot and favored tribe and why they are so much more superior to the other Muslims in the region who should be grateful to clean toilets in Dubai. It is an awfully sinister form of nationalism with a very racist dimension made up by an government in a country with the complete absence of any notion of democratic rule, it's scary as fuck. We had -6 degrees recently and it was delightful. I am jealous, send some snow my way. The cold doesn't bother me, you just have to dress appropriately but in Singapore when it is that hot and humid, the only way to escape the heat is to jump in the pool or find somewhere with A/C.
DeleteYeah I read about the history of the UAE. They were little more than villagers living in the desert fishing for survival before they discovered oil. They also have their own Lee Kuan Yew founder-like figure who people exalt due to lifting the country out of poverty by instituting socialist policies. Lol I was in Singapore when the SG-50 celebrations were ongoing, it doesn't take much to instill national pride in people. I mean, you see it in football in the UK where some people are die-hard fans of a club and take offense when the owners of the club prefer to focus on profits rather than winning. Well yeah, it's a business, what did you expect? That the club would be loyal to the fans?
DeleteWhen I spoke to a young Jew once, he told me about the whole "Yahweh's chosen people" and how he didn't like how exclusionary it was, considering how Jews have been excluded all their history. I think this chosen people narrative is to prevent local sympathy for migrants. Take a country like Australia which is extremely harsh to refugees who come by boat, housing them offshore in horrible facilities until they give up and go home, never giving them a fair hearing. Unlike the UAE, Australia has citizens who don't think they are some superior Aussie race, so many Australians when they find out protest asking the government to let these refugees in (and to spend lots of tax dollars on them). The UAE government can only get away with treating migrants harshly if the locals do not develop sympathy for them, hence they bribe the locals with benefits and make this narrative of superior race to do so. Not that Singapore doesn't have its own issues with poorly treated migrant workers. That's why they don't have a minimum wage, a PAP politician explicitly stated they didn't want a minimum wage to raise living standards for Singaporeans because it would also apply to the migrant worker and therefore lower living standards. Unfortunately Singapore is not that rich they can give away HDBs for free and not charge any university tuition, but many locals are too busy chasing a white collar dream they turn a blind eye to poorly treated blue collar migrants.
The UAE has tons of oil & gas, Singapore had nothing - so to become wealthy wasn't that hard for the UAE when there were so many companies lining up to exploit the oil & gas there. So their Sheikh was merely instrumental in spending that wealth to build lavish projects with the oil revenue whilst Singapore, well you know the story. It was all done in the absence of oil wealth. Singapore is different from the UAE as there are still more locals than expats, so it's a lot harder to go on a spending spree to buy the loyalty of the locals when there are far more locals to bribe that way.
DeleteOddly enough Singapore does have oil refineries, but that was something they had to make a huge upfront investment to build that any of their neighbors could have built. Do they bribe the locals at all in Sg? With functioning infrastructure I suppose... After living in America for 2 years I just realized I took for granted how efficient government services are in Sg. They may not have welfare programs, but everything runs on time. Would I go back? Probably not, since I hope to make enough money that I can deal with the things like long wait times at the DMV or high healthcare prices.
DeleteBtw, I recently had a discussion with a coworker about Western Europe vs. America. He's from the middle east, and he apparently hates Western Europe because of how racist they are towards migrants/refugees from the neighboring areas (North Africa, Middle East, Eastern Europe). But he loves America and the opportunities it has given him. I was surprised because America is famous for white Americans who think all middle easterners are terrorists because of 9/11. But that got me thinking, a Black or Hispanic person in America would probably prefer to live in Germany because there are less harmful stereotypes. Sadly each country just has an underclass minority race/ethnicity, even if they treat their majority or other migrants better.
Let's think about the definition of a bribe - it's something that's offered in exchange for a special favor. Say if I get arrested for speeding and I offer the policeman some money to look the other way, then that's clearly a bribe. But if primary school teacher turns up at the school on time and delivers a lesson, then that's just the teacher doing her job - it is not a 'bribe' at all. A government offering tax-paying citizens functioning infrastructure should be compared to the teacher turning up at the school for work rather than me bribing the policeman who caught me speeding. That's not a bribe at all, as the citizens who pay for it ultimately though the tax system. Yes a lot of things work well in Singapore, but that's not a bribe at all. I compare it to when I stayed at a very expensive 5-star hotel in Dubai and received excellent service - is that a bribe for me to leave them a good review on Tripadvisor? No, it is merely a service that my company paid a lot of money for me to enjoy as perks of my job. It is not for free, someone has got to pay for it. Whereas in the case of me shoving some money into the hands on the policeman to avoid being given a much bigger fine, then that's clearly a bribe. The relationship between the citizens and the government in any country is NEVER a bribe. What is happening in Singapore is but normal (like the teacher turning up for work - she is just doing her job) and if things don't work well in the UK or US, that's our systems being shitty and terrible. But it doesn't turn what happens in Singapore into a 'bribe' - that's the wrong word.
DeleteEurope is hostile towards Muslims and migrants who are Muslims because they fail to assimilate unlike say Chinese migrants who always assimilate. Chinese migrants face far less hostility compared to the Muslims because the white people look at the Muslims and think, "why can't you be like the Chinese migrants? The Chinese work so hard and assimilate, but you Muslims refuse to even learn the local language." Ironically, Muslims in Europe who are successfully integrated are always the first to admit that a lot of the blame lies with the poorly assimilated Muslim migrants. That's why in contrast, the Chinese are always held up as the model minority.
It may not be bribery per se when the Singapore government does a good job of providing services, but from what some locals tell me the government makes it look like they're doing people a favor. It's still not a democracy and I get the general feeling the government doesn't feel like it owes it's citizens anything.
DeleteYou make a good point about assimilation. I have another coworker who was born in east Asia and moved to the US as a toddler. And when he arrived in the US his parents told him "you now have to pick a white person name to go by in school because we want you to fit in." As a result, what we call him is an ordinary English name, let's call him "Daniel", but what is on his official email address, passport, and drivers license is a totally East Asian sounding name. I like Daniel, he has good social skills, and we talk a lot about cultural differences between Asia and the west and how to bridge the gap. In contrast, the middle Eastern coworker, let's call him "Phil", oh gosh he has made no attempt to understand American culture at all. Especially upper class American culture since we both go to a snobby rich private university with many wealthy students. Phil complains a lot about small things done differently like weddings. Because in the middle east nobody gives speeches at weddings but in America lots of people do, he calls it "cringe" without realizing he shouldn't insult an entirely different culture just cuz it's different.
Hello Amanda. Allow me to respond to the following points: I still don't see it as a form of bribery. So imagine there's Jane who is a really good teacher at school, all the students love her, even her colleagues respect her for doing a really good job. Would you say, "Jane is trying to bribe the students and their parents by doing such a good job"? No, that would be inappropriate, even an insult to Jane who is taking great pride in her work as a teacher and sure, she receives a salary to do her job but the fact that she does it well doesn't mean that it is a 'bribe' - I'm trying very hard not to give the Singapore government more credit than they deserve. They run public services well in Singapore, I get it, that aspect of life is shambolic in the UK whilst it works really well in Singapore. In this case, I compare it to Jane the teacher who is doing a superb job and John the teacher who is lazy, incompetent and terrible at his job. Whilst Jane is undoubtedly a good teacher, she isn't bribing the people around her by simply doing her job well - it is John whom we need to castigate, condemn and punish for being so terrible at his job because we should hold up what Jane does as the norm and say every teacher/government should be this efficient whilst punishing John for being terrible. You've done it the other way round, you've more or less accepted the very low standards of John as the norm and the high standards of Jane as so exceptional that it would tantamount to a bribe - that's not the case.
DeleteAs for your comparison between Daniel and Phil, yeah I think you point out a good point. One of my business partners is a French Muslim whose parents are from Algeria - let's call him Ahmed (not his real name). He speaks French as a first language, English as a second language though he is kind enough to indulge me when I try to speak to him in Arabic. There were a few factors that contributed to Ahmed's success in life: his parents didn't have too many kids. He only has one other sibling, so despite the fact that his parents had working class jobs, they were not so poor that they couldn't spend on Ahmed when he was growing up and he got a decent education. His parents weren't well educated and pushed Ahmed to get a good degree as they saw his education to be key to his social mobility - sounds like common sense of course but you'll be amazed how a lot of people take that for granted. Today, Ahmed is rich, super successful, well assimilated but still a practicing Muslim and he is a shining example of how successful Muslim migrants in France can be if they play their cards right. The downfall of a lot of migrant families tend to boil down to two key factors: poor people having waaaaay too many children when they can't afford it, so the kids spend their childhood in poverty unable to afford anything and that is related to my second point: if your parents don't spend on your education, sometimes the state picks up the slack but if you fall through the cracks, then that's another generation that's well and truly screwed with all the odds set against them. Ironically, they are victims of the very poor decisions made by the parents. My friend Ahmed is a great example of how if migrants make the right decision, their kids can have a super bright future in France and become ridiculously crazy rich - and of course, Ahmed's parents are delighted at how successful and rich he is today. He is able to provide a very comfortable retirement for them and they are living in luxury in the south of France. Now what I am describing is merely what practically all Singaporeans do anyway: ie. have only 1 or 2 children, invest in your children's education. That sets your kids up for success and whilst it doesn't guarantee that you'll end up as fabulously wealthy as Ahmed today, at least the odds were not stacked against Ahmed when he was growing up in France compared to many other French Muslims who weren't as fortunate as him.
DeleteTo be fair to Ahmed: may I highlight 3 other factors please. Firstly, I know he is super intelligent - once again, we call that the genetic lottery and he got lucky. Secondly, I know he is super hardworking and that's a trait that has been a massive factor in his success (though we've had that conversation with another reader recently). It helps to be hardworking but without the presence of factor 1), ie. the intelligence to begin with, you remember everything we discussed then. Lastly social skills: Ahmed found ways to connect with me, my bosses who are Peruvian-Latino and I saw him with another Arab guy in action in Dubai. He is a social chameleon with excellent social skills - he also speaks at least three languages fluently (French, English + Arabic) so that's all to his credit and contributing to his incredible success today.
DeleteI guess the Singaporean government are just doing their jobs providing government services, but damn do they do a good job of it compared to visiting the DMV or getting my taxes done in the US. In the US having any visa processed can get months, in Singapore it's 1 appointment then yes/no. I get that politically speaking places like the UK/US believe in the free market to take care of their needs, and that good government services are mostly to help the poor, and there is less political will for that. The UK/US are terribly classist countries unfortunately...
DeleteYup Ahmed sounds a lot like Daniel's background. Actually Daniel and Phil are both from working class families, but Daniel only has one brother(East Asian families y'know), and with Phil I don't know how many siblings he has but apparently his parents were abusive and couldn't look after him so he grew up in foster care. Both are very intelligent and attended university on full scholarships, but Phil is just really annoying outside of work I think he will struggle with the soft skills aspect of working life after graduation. Yeah sure he can just get by on individual work in an education setting, where regardless of how nice you are to the teacher or your classmates it wouldn't increase your grade, but working life doesn't work that way. Ahmed can't just complain about another person's culture in public or he wouldn't have as many business partners.
By the way, the way you describe Ahmed is that he is the exception rather than the norm for Muslim immigrant families in France. In contrast, there are many Asian-American families like Daniel's. I suppose economically speaking East-Asia is closer to the West than the Middle East or North Africa. As in, families don't want to have many children because there either aren't many low-skill jobs available or they feel it's frowned upon to work such a job, and prefer to raise fewer kids with better education for high-skill jobs. I heard an issue in places like Sweden is that there just aren't any low-skill jobs for refugees with no college degree to work immediately, so they end up unemployed and living on welfare, which makes it harder to assimilate. But to the refugees they see it as normal to work a low skill job because back home that's what most people did. Also East-Asians aren't very religious, and even if they are they don't believe in the kind of religion that tells them to have lots of kids. In the US there are still many low skill jobs available, especially since the minimum wage isn't that high there is less pressure to make do with less staff or automate. Also, it isn't as frowned upon to have many kids if you live amongst poor white people who don't believe in birth control/abortion. I think that's the biggest difference with European Christians compared to American Christians. Europeans are all for birth control and don't like families with lots of kids because their welfare state isn't built for that.
Perhaps as a person born in Singapore and raised there, I want to point out that this is just what the Singaporeans expect of the government there - it is a social contract, not a bribe (again, that's the wrong word). The citizens of Singapore give the PAP absolute power to govern the country, the PAP pays themselves insane salaries that make politicians in America and the UK look like very poor people, but in exchange the PAP has to deliver on public services. This is not a bribe, but a social contract in the business sense. The same way I pay a lot of money to stay in an expensive 5-star hotel, in return for the ludicrous price I have paid, I am treated like a VIP superstar not because the staff are trying to bribe me, but because I had paid a lot of money for that kind of treatment. It's the same in Singapore - that's the contract whether they like it or not.
DeleteDon't forget though, in Latin America, we face the same problem. In Latin America, families tend to have too many children - like having 6 children is the norm despite both parents earning peanuts. Ahmed was lucky in the sense that his parents knew what he needed to get ahead in life but it is shocking that a lot of his peers who were in his position (children of Muslim migrants in France) did not get the kind of upbringing he got. I'd say that with his kind of sensible, responsible parents, even if he wasn't going to become wildly rich and successful like he is today, he would have at least been set up to be middle class and comfortable in France today.
Lol the million dollar salaries in Singapore for ministers make a congressman in the US seem poor ($170k/year, pre-tax). Despite Singapore's flaws, I do admit the social contract of looking the other way on social issues in exchange for efficient government services is very tempting. It's almost like the Singapore government operates like the government of the evil empire in Star Wars. Very efficient organization, even if they don't have freedom of speech or other social freedoms.
Delete6 children in Latin America? The thing is, at least in France public school is free, so there isn't a case where an Algerian family has 6 kids but can only afford to send one to school. In poor countries in South East Asia, school is not free so many parents can't even send their kids to school. But then again, going to school is a relatively new phenomenon for the working class. It used to be that to become a craftsman you joined a guild and worked as an apprentice, not sat in a classroom and took tests like a noble's son.
Btw, correct me if I'm wrong, but assimilation seems better in the UK than in continental Europe where you have immigrant enclaves which don't speak the local language and have a high unemployment rate. As a British man who lives in London, is that true Alex? But one could argue the UK accepts very little refugees in general, preferring to take in economic migrants who already come to the UK with a job offer in hand which aids in assimilation.
OK let me deal with your question - to a certain degree, yes. This is only because the default foreign/second language of the world is English, which is used as a lingua franca across the world so many refugees want to come to the UK because they already have a decent grasp of English, some even speak it fluently and thus they're thinking, if I go to the UK, I already speak the language but if I move to Denmark, then I have to learn Danish. But of course, speaking the local language is but the first step to gain fruitful employment. So that's why more of our ethnic minorities speak the local language compared to say Denmark or Sweden but that doesn't mean that we still don't have big migrant enclaves like ethnic ghettoes with high unemployment - we still do, but they speak English and that's not helped them gain social mobility.
DeleteWhy don't these immigrant enclaves have social mobility in the UK then? Or are they content to simply work a minimum wage job in a rich country because that in itself is still a form of social mobility in terms of living standards?
DeleteThat's a complex questions with many different possible answers. Firstly, if you're talking about migrant enclaves, then working a minimum wage job might seem like paradise to some of these migrants who have come from extreme poverty and thus relatively speaking, they have already achieved social mobility and are better off compared to the situation they were in before - so if you're looking at a migrant from Pakistan, is he comparing his socio-economic status to his neighbours? Other British people? Or other Pakistani people like his friends and family from his hometown? It is easy to be 'content' and satisfied with your situation if you're comparing it with people who are far worse off than you. It's not just migrants who do that but a lot of working class people. So your suggestion does correspond with my first theory, the second theory that these immigrants make the error of having children too young - so maybe they have the ambition to attain social mobility by training for a skilled job, but because they already have one child and the wife is pregnant with another, they have to work full time to put food on the table to provide for the family. Remember, that a lot of these generous social welfare are for those who are citizens and not recent arrivals, so these people have to earn the moment they hit the ground here, in very low paid jobs like security or delivery to put food on the table for their families. Their white and Chinese counterparts would probably still be in university or doing skill training whilst these migrants are already having two or three children - therein lies the difference, white and Chinese people are willing to delay starting a family, putting their careers first. Then my third theory is that there is a sense of entitlement in the UK: people are demanding that they are given nice things rather than working hard for it. There are so many strikes in the UK now and the government is standing firm: if you set a precedent and give in to every demand by the strikers, then you're encouraging this kind of behaviour and it will lead to endless strikes and a total breakdown of the economy. The migrants come to this country and instead of making sacrifices to earn more money, they adopt this British sense of entitlement and say things like, why isn't the government doing more to help people like me?
DeleteAnd the last theory is that they have given up on themselves but have transferred those hopes to the next generation, ie. "it's too late for me to get a better job and retrain because I am already in my late 40s, but my children can have a better life as long as I bring them up well - the best I can hope for is a comfortable retirement as my children would have grown up by then and can provide for me when I am in my 60s and 70s." So you have these migrants who have worked all their lives in terrible, low paid jobs and pin all their hopes on their children: this is a gamble of course. You never know what kind of child you're gonna get - the child could be super capable and intelligent or a complete useless idiot. Yet in many of their cultures, they are willing to take that risk rather than do a very well calculated cost-benefit analysis of what they ought to do if they want social mobility. They wanna have children regardless, so they put that on their list of priorities and then everything else just follows from there.
DeleteI see that in my sister in law's family. They are white but it took one generation to attain social mobility. She married a very, painfully working class husband (whom I don't like at all, I don't get along with him) and both my husband and I shake our heads in disbelief like she could have done so much better. He is rude, he has no manners and he has poor social skills. Yet amongst his family and community, he is considered a success - he got out of poverty by getting a job as a teacher and held down that job for many years. Then he was in a nasty road accident when the bus he was traveling in had a horrific crash, he nearly died and at one point, they were talking about amputating his leg as it was so crushed. He never managed to work ever since, he has received a big insurance pay out from the bus company and is officially disabled. But good grief, talk about the sense of entitlement: okay we're all very sympathetic given how he has suffered since that accident and the amount of pain he must have been through with that leg, but he now talks about himself as if he is the greatest person who has the right to judge everyone, as if like "if not for this leg, think of what I could have achieved" etc. I just shake my head and think, you're a working class teacher, just like my parents - it's not like you were super successful before that accident in the bus. Anyway in my job, I could lose both legs and still do it because I'm using my brains not my legs - I'm employed for my brains and I'm sure there are teachers in wheelchairs working you know as they're supposed to use their brains as well, but once you give someone like that a medical excuse not to work, that sense of entitlement comes out. Anyway, he has pretty much given up on himself since that accident - at least his two kids turned out okay, they went to universities and managed to get very good jobs in spite of their father's attitude. But the way I see it, his attitude is so stereotypical of what one would expect from the working classes.
Hey Alex, those are very comprehensive and convincing theories. Like I can't fathom having children before finishing my education or establishing a career first. I'm still in graduate school, but suppose I went into industry at 21, I'd wait till I married a guy and earned enough to buy a house and have savings locked away before even thinking of having a baby. But like you have said a few times before, I have opportunities in front of me that 80% of society doesn't have. And therefore it would be a huge opportunity cost for me to stop studying and marry a guy and have a baby right now. For the poor immigrants that come to the UK, they probably didn't have much opportunities anyway back home, since even secondary school may not be accessible to everyone in poor countries let alone university. I think East Asia is in a more unique position where ancient China was a relatively advanced society for its time, and Confucian principles and the imperial examination meant most East Asians think education is the key to social mobility. Lol the Chinese had the A Levels and standardized tests all the way back in the year 600 AD, when the imperial exam to enter the civil service began.
DeleteIt not only is a gamble to bet on your kid, but its a gamble to bet on your kid while not giving them a good leg up in life by raising your own social status first. It's much easier for a kid to succeed if they had money for enriching hobbies like gymnastics or chess club, or even any book they wanted, compared to if they had no money at all, and their education was solely provided by the state. During the pandemic many kids fell behind in school because their parents couldn't afford a computer or even a smartphone for them to join classes over zoom. Sure a poor kid may turn out to be a genius, but a genius in a deprived area is gonna suffer compared to an above average person in a middle class setting with as much educational resources as they need.
Wow that is a very interesting story about your sister-in-law's husband. So technically he could keep working with one bad leg, but he chooses not to and just lives off disability, yet tells everyone "look what I could've been!" Lol, as if he was a professional football player like Lionel Messi about to win the world cup before the bus accident. Sounds to me like he's just feeling sorry for himself and using the injury as an excuse for not succeeding as highly as he thinks of himself. Is your husband's family working class? I think you last mentioned they're middle class, but why did his sister marry that guy then? Does she work? Where did she meet him? I'm really curious to know. Though to be fair, being a public school teacher is not as working class as say being a truck driver, at least in terms of education. A teacher has to at least go to university, even if they don't make a lot of money afterwards. PhD students also have to be bright and come up with new ideas/inventions, but they also get paid minimum wage. Medical residents too! Last I heard the NHS pays residents only 12 pound an hour. However at least that monetary situation is temporary, while being a teacher is an actual lifelong career where the income doesn't rise much. But anyway, to a middle class woman, I think a teacher does count as middle class at least in terms of education. I do know some PhD students married to public school teachers, male ones too. Mackenzie Scott, a billionaire, was briefly married to a science teacher, though he taught at a private school.
Well this is when we have the benefit of a good education to calculate the odds and we know how to stack the odds in our favor and we can recognize when the odds are very poor. What you have described in terms of a poor working class family having loads of children and betting on the children to turn out rich enough to support the parents through their elderly years is an example of someone betting on an unlikely outcome with poor odds - we're way too pragmatic Amanda, we will work that out pretty quickly in our heads but then again, that's the benefit of a good education and the academic rigour of analysis that comes with it. It helps us work things like that out very quickly and that's why we make good decisions which perhaps we have taken for granted, but just look at around you and the number of people who make irrational, poor decisions which trap them in poverty generation after generation.
DeleteWell, it's not that simple when it comes to my SIL's husband as he was seriously injured in the bus accident - people died in that accident and his leg was so badly mashed up in the twisted metal we all assumed he was going to lose the leg. But keeping the leg meant being in constant pain from the serious injuries and it's not the disability per se that keeps him from working but the constant pain. I'm not making excuses for him, there's a panel of doctors who decide when someone can be signed off as disabled and that's their decision in a country where we are quite strict about such criteria. In any case, my SIL's husband's family are painfully working class: for example, all his siblings are unemployed and on benefits because they're all too 'sick' to work. A combination of obesity, alcoholism and other diseases (like diabetes) have rendered them all way too 'sick' and conveniently signed off as disabled to avoid having to work. I still can't believe how my SIL didn't run a mile when she met her husband's family but then again, I'm not close to her, not close enough to raise that issue.
My husband's family is sort of working class with money - allow me to explain. His father was a top scientist at a university and his mother worked with computers throughout her career, that's not the same as being a bus driver or a waitress. So they were educated family but they didn't know what to do with the money and there were times when I am shocked at his ignorance about certain social rules that anyone who was upper class would know - there is a gap between being so rich your children play with the princes and princesses of the royal family and being so poor you struggle to put food on the table: I would say that my husband's family is in that gap between the two extremes. They were educated but there was that lack of "we must present ourselves as a rich, aristocratic family who belong with the upper classes in British society!" No, there's a sense of "why bother, the upper classes would never accept us anyway, as long as there's money in the bank and food on the table, who cares about class identity." Whereas for me, I feel like I do have something to prove - I am an immigrant very keen to show the folks back in Singapore that I have become very successful in the UK. Whereas for my husband's family, they're alright and feel they have nothing to prove beyond being able to send all their kids to university. So they're not quite working class in that they have no money and no education (even his parents were both graduates and his father had a PhD, extremely rare in those days) but how can I say this without sounding like a judgmental biatch - they lack the finer polish that the upper classes would have when it comes to their manners. I came from the gutter in Singapore, so I thought I had nothing to lose by learning the manners of the upper classes of British aristocracy but that's just me.
I guess we've been given good advice on how to be rich and/or stay rich. And having kids definitely isn't the way to do that. Many people with kids are poor, while many people without kids are less poor on average. But people do have "wishful thinking" on their minds. That's why in medicine during clinical trials we have double-blind studies, where neither the participant nor the scientist knows what drug is being used. This is to prevent the scientist from being so wishful that their new drug works that they pick their drug as the "winner" instead of the placebo when there might be no effect, or the drug is harmful.
DeleteOh I forgot about chronic pain. I guess it's the difference between living with pain or losing a limb. That's a very working class family in terms of employment and health outcomes. I mean, I'm not one to judge someone just for being poor, maybe they're very nice people. If they're happy and the husband isn't abusive to his wife or children then it is what it is. I have been on many dates over the past couple months, with men of an entire spectrum of social class. And although I tend to click very quickly with the upper class guys of similar childhood and education, that's no guarantee we have similar interests and will fall in love. I mean there was one dude who came from a very rich family in Chicago (his dad owns a law firm) that moved things really fast as soon as he found out I went to private school. I felt really intimidated by that, and by the 2nd date (at one of the most expensive restaurants in town) I called it off because we just didn't have similar hobbies. Just because I grew up with ambassador's children and he grew up with the Chicago elite doesn't mean we're automatically in love.
Oh I know what you mean by working class with money, since one of my friends is a prof who is exactly that. He grew up working class in Malaysia, went to the US for his PhD, then worked in SG as a prof. He is so cheap he lives in the student dorm as the resident prof because they charge him no rent. And despite being high ranked and making good money, he doesn't socialize much out of work. No country club hangouts like my Dad used to do, so he's not well connected with the elites of Singapore despite being very well educated and working at an elite institution. Like one of my Dad's best friends is the son of one of the top 5 richest men in my home country, which he obviously met at a country club for elites. Anyway, back to the prof, he is a socially awkward man who would have trouble making friends at a country club anyway. But regarding what you said about being a judgmental biatch hahaha, I don't think it's judgmental at all. I think what you mean is, your husband's parents are content with being financially secure but are not sampling all the things that a financially secure life has to offer. And that's fine. Those other things they are missing out on require really good manners, and not everyone wants to invest the time into them. Sometimes I think because I grew up upper class I hide a lot of anger just to be polite when I shouldn't, and it is a headache sometimes. My dad was obsessed with manners after he got wealthy, he even owns books just about table manners. But he was a very ambitious man who wanted to climb up the social ladder as high as he could, and reveled in being able to establish rapport with interesting people very quickly.
On the topic of my SIL's husband, he is no catch - he has no looks, he has no social skills, he literally has no redeeming features. The fact that he happened to be on that bus when it had that horrific crash at least led to a massive financial settlement (well as a passenger on a bus, you're entitled to arrive at your destination alive and in one piece) so at least now he doesn't have to work. But the way I see it, my SIL was the eldest child of two extremely religious Catholic parents who didn't allow her to wear make up, go hang out with her friends and do stuff that normal teenagers did (sounds familiar right? That's exactly what my mother and eldest sister went through - parents who were super strict.) My guess is that she said yes to the first man who asked her "would you marry me" because she was miserable at home, didn't get along with her parents and was just so so desperate to move out - add to that the social expectations of women that age to get married, settle down and have kids. That's exactly what my mother went through, so there's an element of 'compromise' by saying yes to the first guy (as opposed to Mr Right). There's an element of settling for less than the ideal outcome but a lot of people do that with jobs, partners, relationships - life is never perfect and it would seem cruel to judge a woman for settling for an imperfect outcome given the circumstances. I can understand I suppose but I will definitely not sugar-coat it by pretending "oh they're happy" - bullshit, that's sugarcoating a piece of turd and that doesn't turn it into nice candy even if you covered a piece of turd with a lot of sugar. My SIL's husband's family are NOT nice people, quite the opposite, they are a horror freak show but she settled, she compromised, she settled for less. And that's just the harsh reality of life that's downright ugly - I don't see the point in sugarcoating it for you.
DeletePart 2 coming up below.
And as for my husband's family's attitude towards class - don't forget, they're Irish migrants from a very poor part of Ireland. There was so much blatant, nasty anti-Irish racism on the part of the English back when my husband's family moved to England (my husband and his parents were born in England, but his grandparents were born in one of the poorest parts of Ireland). The Irish were seen as the scum of the earth who had moved to England to do the jobs that even the poorest English people refused to do - that was before they had ethnic minorities to vent their racist hatred on, so the Irish were at the very bottom of the food chain in that generation. So even for the Irish who managed to get a degree and good jobs (like my husband's parents), there was a sense of "that's very good for an Irish person already" - it sounds horrible, but the bar was set a lot lower for the Irish in those days (we're going back one or two generations) and thus with that kind of mindset very prevalent in the Irish community, the fact that both my husband's parents had degrees and had well paid jobs was already seen as "the best outcome than an Irish family could possibly hope for - what more could you possibly want"? I roll my eyes and think, you're at best lower middle class, there are so many more ranks up the food chain to advance to become a lot richer and become upper class but there was the anti-Irish racism back in those days which meant that an Irish family could never be seen as upper class and thus rather than try to aspire to be upper class (and be rejected by the English upper class), they just never even tried in the first place. Go figure. I see a lot of similarities between my family and his actually.
DeleteBut also, I have to point out that a lot of this anti-Irish racism has disappeared in the last 30 years. Irish people in the UK have assimilated to the point where there is virtually no racism against the Irish for a variety of reasons: it has evolved instead. So for example, I look down on my SIL's husband not for the colour of his skin or his ethnicity/nationality (he is Scottish) but rather it is personal, it is against his lack of social skills, his brash working class nature (oh I could go on listing his many personal faults) but that's not racism. Discrimination has evolved and the presence of more black and Asian people in the UK now means that the true racists are not going to go after the Irish who are white, they're going to target the blacks & Asians instead.
DeleteOh I forgot that your husband is already in his 50s which means your sister in law is of a similar age. Yeah women back then didn't have that much freedom. Being religious just adds even more of a pre-written script to a woman's life. Get married, have kids, "happily ever after." Umm, it sounds like your husband's family don't really get along with each other. I guess your sister in law wasn't told growing up "you're pretty, smart, charming, you should find a man who makes you happy because you're such a catch." Well I hope she doesn't regret her decision.
DeleteI knew your husband was Irish but it seems he was born in England so I didn't know how far back the Irishness went. Yeah the Irish were terribly mistreated by the British to the point that the Republic of Ireland became its own country in 1922. But nowadays the Republic of Ireland is even richer than the UK so it's hard to be as racist towards them. This mentality of "they won't accept us anyway", I hear that from black people who don't want to go to university and pick a major where they don't see any black professors or black students. Some people will be racist, but if a minority doesn't try to challenge these spaces then they will lose out, and the racists will be justified in their views that the people they hate are lesser and can't succeed.
Also I'd like to point out the upper class aren't a monolithic entity. There's new money and old money. And then there's also well-travelled international business dealing rich people, and rich people who hardly leave the country or have met a single foreigner. Examples of the latter are lady Hussey who recently got fired by Buckingham palace. Usually the upper class people most welcoming of diversity are the well-travelled new money, like yourself actually. I'm also in that category and am very shocked when I meet old money people who think I'm automatically okay with making classist jokes.
No in fact my husband was the youngest child and given the way the ages of the siblings were spread out, my SIL is in fact in her mid-60s already. Yeah she isn't young and that's why I find it easier to relate to her kids than her, given that I'm a bit closer to their age and I generally find it easier to communicate with younger people. But if you can imagine the kind of restrictions a woman from a very Catholic, very religious family faced back in the day - at least they made her study hard to go to university but she wasn't allowed to go out with her friends, she wasn't allowed to socialize, she had to attend church regularly and she had many tasks including taking care of her younger siblings + the grandparents. I see a lot of similarity between her and my sister (and mother) given that they faced exactly the same pressures. And look, I didn't know her when she met her husband (I was only a baby/toddler in the late 1970s) but the world back then was a very different place for women. It would be unfair to judge her choices back then on modern standards but the UK in the late 1970s was such a different place for women and thus her choices had to be seen in that historical/cultural context - I am not trying to justify her bad choices, but I am trying to explain why she had settled, she decided to compromise like so many women of that generation. Even my husband told me there were times when he thought his sister's husband treated her badly but he didn't feel in a position to say, "just get a divorce, you don't need that loser." Why? Cos everyone's going on but he is so injured after that accident on the bus, whilst that may be true of course (yes he nearly died in that bus crash) but it still doesn't excuse his very poor behaviour and complete lack of social skills. Again, you have to factor in my SIL's age - she is in her mid-60s. Women of that generation view divorce in a very different light compared to people of our generation. I hate to mansplain it to you but mind the gap Amanda, things have changed so much for your generation and the world was a very different place back in the 1970s and 1980s for people like my SIL.
DeleteIt's a myth that the Republic of Ireland is rich - it is a tax haven for a lot of companies wishing to take advantage of their low-tax regime so there is a tiny minority of Irish people who are very rich but where my mother in law used to live until she died, goodness me, it is so freaking poor. There's a lot of rural Ireland with very, very few job opportunities for young people. People from places like that pack their bags and move to London for a better future.
Oh wow your husband's sister in law was really from a different time. I also think back then in society people didn't consider the woman's happiness. There were no romantic comedies about a strong independent woman with a fulfilling job trying out multiple guys until she finds one that makes her happy. She does sound a lot like if your eldest sister got married out of duty instead of staying single. No I don't think you're mansplaining it, there's a very neutral tone to the explanation. I grew up in an age where divorce is pretty much normal, if someone doesn't make you happy or is abusive then you should cut them from your life. But then again I'm not religious, and for a long time it was religion that said that marriage is sacred and forever, since most weddings are in churches. It sounds like your SIL's marriage is a lot like your parents and she got married to have kids, and stayed together for the kids.
DeleteY'know, surprisingly I also wasn't allowed to wear makeup or go out either lest be called an immoral slut by my abusive mother. That was despite the fact she was wearing makeup and going out all the time. It was just a lot of hypocrisy in her case. And for a long time I just assumed I was asexual and didn't want to get into a relationship anyway. I have a boyfriend now, but it took a lot of therapy to get over thinking that going on many dates was shameful/immoral. I just gotta say though, thank god for birth control. I get that 50-60 years ago sleeping around was seen as immoral because you might have unwanted babies due to shoddy birth control, but nowadays with modern technology its largely a solved problem.
Oh really? I thought they had a tech industry or something similar, but I was aware of big tech companies using Ireland to avoid paying corporate taxes in the US. I forget that even in the UK there are very poor places like West Wales or Middlesborough, places with accents that sound very traditionally working class.
Yeah my SIL being in her 60s falls between my generation (I'm in my 40s) and my parents' generation (70s/80s) and thus I have to be careful not to judge her by my standards as her world is very different given her age. Anyway, being me, I tend to feel a lot younger and think a lot younger, thus my mentality, my mindset is a lot closer to yours Amanda given you are younger. But women back then had fewer options and it was often other women who oppressed women - if you weren't a wife and mother, you were judged to be a 'bad woman' by other women who did become wives and mothers. It was that kind of peer pressure which forced a lot of women to 'settle' in those days and let's not sugar coat it. Settling for less, compromising was the norm then but it doesn't mean for the moment that the woman who had to settle for less is happy - women like my SIL and my mother are not happy with the situation and I bet they are probably jealous of people like my sister who remained single rather than sleepwalked into a miserable 'settle for less' marriage. The fact is we only need one job, one spouse so a lot of people 'settle for less' and that's just a fact of life - we rarely ever get the ideal outcome and I accept that is because life is imperfect, but I steadfastly refuse to sugarcoat this aspect of life. It's like when you suggested that my SIL's husband's family could be nice people, hell no - they're a freak show from a horror house, an example of how badly wrong things can go with zero redeeming features. But for my SIL, her two main motivations are: a) I have children and have the responsibility to be a good mother, b) I have a husband who has been in a horrific accident and it's my duty as a wife to take care of him whilst he is so injured and continues to recover. So everyone looks at her and thinks, she is such a good mother and wife, she is so dutiful in caring for her husband after that horrific accident = she's such a good woman etc, her whole society tells her that she's doing everything right and that does keep her where she is regardless of whether or not she's genuinely happy. Imagine if she left her husband after he was in that accident, then her society would turn against her.
DeleteAs for Ireland, there are really only two big cities there - Belfast and Dublin and the rest are small towns with very little going on. Most young people move to Belfast and Dublin or think, why stop there? They move to London or Frankfurt for better opportunities. An Irish passport holder has unlimited access to all of the EU plus the UK (the UK gives Irish citizens special privileges and they can come and live and work here in the UK, no limitations, no paperwork required). Ireland is a relatively big country but it is losing a lot of well educated young people who simply move away - it is good at funding education, you just make sure the schools are well funded but then they are stuck in the situation whereby these young people don't have any jobs in the countryside and they just leave. The local government then thinks, phew, thank goodness they've left for London as we don't have to pay them unemployment benefits if they can't find a job locally in the Irish countryside. But what that means is that you have villages where the average age is 65 years old and all the productive young people have left for the big city a long time ago.
In fact if you were to compare the three women: my SIL, my mother and my sister, then my sister is the one who is in the best position because she was the one who did not settle for less, she didn't compromise at all like the vast majority of women of her generation. I hope that by sharing these stories with you Amanda, you will get the moral of the story: put your own happiness first and never compromise, never settle for less because you're worth it.
DeleteOh so not only is your SIL a wife and mother she's also a caregiver to a disabled family be member. She's doing a lot of unpaid labor that women have been doing for millennia. I guess back then women had a lot riding on marrying a good husband, and we're frowned upon for having no husband. I have a boyfriend now but it makes me really appreciate being single. When I was single and I felt like randomly driving out of the city to see a waterfall, I could because I didn't have plans later that night. I also don't have to answer my phone all the time when single. I can even spend days trapped in my room working on some scientific problem. There's pros and cons to a relationship, but now I don't think it's so bad to be alone if one chooses it.
DeleteSounds like Ireland's got a brain drain problem like certain poorer countries in the EU. I wonder what it was like growing up LGBT among religious Irish people. Probably the same as growing up LGBT in rural USA, where people dream of moving of moving to LA or New York, or some big enough city where nobody cares if you're LGBT.
Well as for my SIL, she is a nice enough person but it is clear to me that her judgment when it came to her choice of husband was poor and this had many cultural factors of course - but once they had their children + the bus accident, there was no turning back and she has been making the best of an imperfect situation. I do feel bad for her, of course I think she deserves much better but at the same time, she's an adult so you have got to hold her responsible for her own poor judgment and bad decisions. As for the LGBT in Ireland, they run away to the big city the moment they can do so! Usually Dublin isn't far enough, they usually pick somewhere like Manchester or London to escape to.
DeleteLol I don't feel so bad about being such a picky person with regards to relationships anymore haha. But I never liked the narrative that women had to be wives or mothers and I wasn't gonna let that get in the way of my science career. I think you've said before that for someone to be happy, they have to actively want it and make plans and take actions to be happy. And if someone doesn't have those dreams and motivation, then nothing will happen, even if they're miserable. Lol Dublin isn't far enough. I guess if you have to move, might as well go for the best jobs and biggest gay dating pool you can find. Even straight liberal people don't like moving to small towns. A friend of mine told me his boss was changing jobs and moving to a smaller city and offered him a job at the new company, and my friend said "no, I don't have a girlfriend yet, and I don't want to date conservative girls."
DeleteIt goes way beyond dating when it comes to being gay in a big city like London, New York or Chicago. In a big city, I can be gay in the company where I work and not give a damn about the reactions as everyone in a London company has already met loads of gays in the big city, so I'm just another gay - whereas in a small village in Ireland, people might freak out as they've never ever met a gay before and would have all kinds of prejudices. Like even in my gymnastics club, I never have to hide my sexuality and nobody bats an eyelid - that's why gay people like living in the big city, nobody cares if you're gay and the same cannot be said about life in a small village.
DeleteOh I forgot about employment discrimination or even housing discrimination against LGBT people. I just checked Wikipedia and Dublin only has 1.4 million residents in their metro area. That's even smaller than where I live, and I don't think people are that comfortable being out of the closet here because it's not as liberal as New York, LA, or Chicago. Oh one of my gymnastics coaches is gay and he's a very visibly feminine type who loves Taylor Swift. But gymnastics tends to attract very liberal people so he's very well liked by everyone.
DeleteI'd like to think that your fellow gymnasts will care more about whether your coach is good at his job or if he is a nice person, rather than about his sexuality per se or if he is effeminate. That's just something we would take for granted in a big city like London, but unfortunately for small town LGBT folks in the countryside, that's still a problem for them.
DeleteOh I just meant I'm glad people are accepting of a visibly gay gymnastics coach at my gym, because that's not something people take for granted in this city due to the high number of religious Christians. Abortion isn't even legal in my state. In New York or London it's the norm to assume that even if the people around you are straight or religious, they're tolerant of other beliefs.
DeleteBtw I forgot to mention Daniel has a boyfriend, and he told me he isn't out to everyone at our relatively liberal university because he can't be sure he isn't talking to a religious Christian when he first meets someone. If we were in New York city, it is heavily frowned upon to be a religious Christian loudly saying you hate gay people. That would be treated as a hate-crime. But in our city they're the majority so they get away with it by saying "you must respect my religion."
DeleteI can appreciate that - when I was in Dubai, I was careful whom I mentioned I was gay to. If the other person was white, then I had no problems divulging that fact. But if the other person was Asian/Muslim, then I would simply avoid the topic. We were in Dubai after all and it wasn't a risk worth taking. But in London, I wouldn't have this issue at all.
DeleteYeah I understand why you said Singapore has a long way to go after repealing 377a. Without anti-discrimination laws like in London or New York, you have to be careful who you divulge your LGBT status to because if someone did react poorly they could get away with it.
Delete