Interview: making a living from computer games

Hi guys. One of the most important lessons I have learnt about blogging is to always interview amazing people who are far more interesting than yourself, so in today's post, I am interviewing a friend from Bristol who has made a successful out of computer games. It is always great to chat to someone who is able to turn his passion into a career and of course, I am doing this with my nephew in mind, knowing that he plays a lot of computer games. So how do you go about turning a passion for computer games into a lucrative and highly enjoyable career? Well, let's speak to David and find out how.

Alex: David, could you introduce yourself and tell us what you do please?

David: I'm David 'Zaccubus' Treacy, I'm a professional gamer and computer games commentator for about 15 years now.

Alex: So, could you explain what's the difference between a gamer and a commentator in this context please?

David: A commentator for computer games is no different from football commentary or any other commentary you would get whilst watching most sports on TV. You have a colour commentator who would explain the tactics used then you have a play by play commentator, who would be talking about the action as it is unfolding, there would be a lot of interaction between the two commentators. The production value these days has increased so much, a lot of money has been invested in this industry to improve user experience. We guide the viewers who may be new to the game, we spell it out for them, make sure they can follow what is unfolding before them, make sure they understand what is happening and we guide them every step of the way to ensure they feel engaged even if they're watching it for the first time. There's an element of educating the audience about the game but also talking about the players as well as they are as important to the whole story. It is about making the whole scene more accessible to a wider audience, I think it is much easier to enter this industry than say trying to become a football commentator in the UK or doing something far more traditional like that.

Alex: You said you've been doing this for about 15 years, then you must have started very young then, am I right David?

David: Yes back when I was 14. Mostly that was pro-gaming, I was a professional gamer for the majority of that time. I spent ten years on many different circuits, playing many different games in that time. I had to learn several different new games just to make money, that's like asking a professional footballer to suddenly switch to golf or basketball and become as good as a pro to make money. Things have evolved a lot since, gaming is far more sophisticated these days, players tend to latch onto one particular type of game and they stick to it. There's much better structure and support for new players who want to get into this kind of eSports and it is more accessible, far easier for one to forge a career in it.

Alex: You broadcast regularly on Twitch - could you tell us more about it and how do you make money there please?

David: Yes, I use Twitch to live stream as I have a partnership programme with them. I get a split of the money that is made through the live stream and I get a higher percentage of the money because of this partnership programme with them. Usually you get just 50-50 if you're just starting off on Twitch but once you reach a certain amount of viewers and subscribers, then you can get a better deal in terms of that split. There are people who really like a streamer and can spend a whole lot of money on them - most people just subscribe, you can buy a month's subscription to the channel and that allows you to support the streamer to do what they do. Do log into Twitch and have a look at what I do there for free.

Alex: Do they purchase access solely to one streamer like at a time, or is it more like a Netflix business model whereby I pay one subscription to the entire platform and I can log in, surf from channel to channel till I finally find something I like?

David: It is for a particular streamer, just one at a time. You can of course buy subscriptions to more than one streamer. If you have an Amazon Prime account, there's Twitch Prime so you can subscribe to any user you like for free each month.

Alex: Could we talk about the early days when you were just getting into the industry as a teenager please, David?

David: I started around 14 years old, my parents hated what I did. They thought I was going to turn into a serial killer. There's this assumption that it was unhealthy for young teenagers to play computer games all day, shooting at things and it would turn you into a mass murderer. Nonetheless I did see the potential in this industry, I saw gamers out there who were great at what they did, winning impressive prizes like a Ferrari and huge sums of money at these tournaments and I thought, I'm really good at these games too, I could win a Ferrari too! It just started from there. I was pretty shit at school, so when I became good at video games, I was really bad at all these subjects they were trying to teach me at school like English and maths, I got so little encouragement at school but I was really good at video games. So I thought, fuck them, I'm going to play video games for a living and I'm going to make it work. When I was 15, that was the turning point - I dropped out of school, got a job, earned enough money to buy my computer and that allowed me to pick up the skills I needed in order to become good at what I do. I was very determined to succeed. I had the discipline, I put in the hours, back then fewer people were trying to make a living this way so it was more open, more fresh - like there wasn't a certain path you could follow, you just had to figure it all out for yourself. Nowadays the industry is so much more established, so if you're coming into it today, there are so many people you can learn from, people who have established great success in this industry. You can just go to a platform like Twitch and learn from the many professionals already broadcasting there. So take Fortnite for example, which I am playing now, so many people are going to Twitch and learning from there.

Alex: And is that your favourite game? I watched a recent stream of you on Twitch playing Fortnite.

David: Both Fortnite and Unreal Tournament are my favourites at the moment.

Alex: There must be so many people out there who play computer games but so few of them actually manage to make any money from it. It's like there are so many of us who go out and dine in restaurants, we pay for the privilege of doing so, but how many of us actually get paid to eat in such places like food critics? What makes you different from the average teenager who loves playing computer games? How do we start monetizing an interest - is that a tough process?

David: It took a while - throughout the earlier days when I was a professional gamer, I didn't earn that much at all. Then I started doing the shoutcasting work and that all changed, it became easier to make money. You can't do all this on your own - you need a team, you need management to take care of you, find you work, you need them to help you find sponsors. I help take care of some younger star players when some of the older games that I enjoyed had gone extinct and died a natural death in the cycle of video games. That's less common these days - the companies producing the games would update the games, keep them relevant and fresh for a younger audience. The developers are putting in a better support mechanism and investing far more money into the eSports scene. The life span of a good game is much longer now. I am very lucky now to be in a position where people are coming to me with these opportunities, I'm not having to go out there to find new work, work is coming to me, all eSports related. So, quite recently, I was working for Epic Games, the company who made Fortnite, so I worked there for two years. I did many different things for them, such as creating content to teach people how to play the game, that's what I did on their Youtube channel and it was very lucrative at the time. Besides that, I also do a lot of freelance shoutcasting, there are so many opportunities out there but you have to be very good at what you do obviously if people are going to pay you very good money for any kind of work in the industry of course. I shall be heading out to Switzerland in a week to participate at an event there as a shoutcaster.

Alex: What makes you so good at your profession David? Now clearly, doctors have to go through medical school, lawyers have to go through law school - but for you, there's no clear training or career path to take to become good at what you do. Even in China today where live streaming entertainment is a massive industry, they have all these academies to train the streamers exactly what to do in order to make loads of money. So there's a lot you have to teach yourself, would it be accurate to say that? What have you had to figure out by yourself and which was the hardest part?

David: At the start, there was a lot to teach myself. Looking back, it was very challenging. But of course, there's nothing to stop any young person today going onto a Twitch stream and approaching someone who is experienced and established asking questions, to learn from them. People are a lot more accessible in this industry compared to say, professional football where there's little or no one-to-one interaction with the fans. In the gaming industry, it is accessible, you can talk to your heroes, they will probably be happy to give you some attention, it is a whole different ball game. Then I saw the different opportunities available beyond being just a pro-gamer or a shoutcaster. There's this huge industry employing so many people on the production and development side, before the game hits the market and constantly developing it as the game evolves over time. Then there are agents, managers, referees, there are even HR and administration managers, the whole scene is growing so quickly and of course, more and more new jobs are created everyday. So even if you are not into gaming, there could be a job in the industry that requires the skills that you have!

Alex: I am asking this because I have a 16 year old nephew who spends a lot of time playing computer games and I have people telling me, "hey leave him alone, not everyone wants to grow up to be a lawyer or a doctor, he could pursue his passions and maybe one day make a lot of money in the computer games industry" What do you say to that? How many such teenagers eventually become good enough at what they do that they can make money like you? Perhaps I am too cynical but I am guessing most of them will never be good enough and it'll just be a hobby which they spend money on.

David: To be a a pro-gamer, there's like a 1% chance because you need to be in the top 1% in the gaming world.

Alex: And are you in that top 1% David?

David: No. Not anymore, because of my age! I would say I am probably still in the top 3% or so today. I do tournaments more as a hobby now, for fun, rather than as my main income, to try to earn money through those tournaments really.

Alex: But why is age such a big factor here?

David: Reaction times drop as you get older. Sorry, fact of life. The teenagers have a massive advantage over me.

Alex: Wow. Really? Shit, now I feel really old in my 40s.

David: So even if you do have the knowledge and experience as a gamer, your reaction is slower as you get older. Yes, so the best in the world right now are these 14 to 15 year old teenagers, that's when they would peak as a gamer. It's crazy how good they are, I just can't do what they do, at that kind of speed. It does vary from game to game as well. Some games are far more dependent on reaction time than others, some depend more on strategy rather than just pure reaction per se - so there are some games which favour younger players. So it is about picking and choosing the right game that suits you - you have to love the game as well of course, you have to enjoy what you play if you are going to become successful at it. Becoming a pro-gamer is hard, because so many people try so hard, they have the passion, the drive, the desire but at the end of the day, they see others succeed and they don't have much to show despite having worked and tried so hard; yes, it is a harsh environment where only the very best can succeed and make a lot of money.

Alex: In short, you have to be super good, like amongst the top 1% in the world if you want to monetize this activity?

David: You don't need to be top 1% to make a living from this industry, but you'll be just surviving, you'll be scraping by, you'll not be making a lot of money if you're not 1%. It is the best of the best in this industry who are really making a lot of money and it is difficult, it is a very tough environment. And there are people who sign with a low-end team to join tournaments, they see more of their prize money being taken by the management. They are scraping by on not much money, it's not what I would consider a decent standard of living even. There are loads of people putting loads of content out there on social media, on Youtube - they are not earning money or significant amounts of money from it but they are still establishing a fan base, trying to get their name out there within the gaming community. Everyone has to start somewhere, you don't decide to become a gamer and make your first million in a short time - you need to make a lot of contacts, get a mentor or two, you need to network with others in the industry, you need to be invited to events - I attend loads of events and they are very beneficial, that's where I pick up a lot of work by meeting people, talking to people, keeping in touch with them, making these useful contacts with important people in the industry who have a budget to spend. Because I'm not as good as I used to be as a gamer, so I'm diversifying in order to continue making a good living.

Alex: Can you give me some examples of the kinds of paid work you have found in the industry through networking?

David: For example, I have dealt with companies that manufacture different components and accessories and as an expert in the industry, I act as a product development consultant for them to tell them what a gamer would want and need, so their products would be right for the consumers they are trying to sell to. It is a big industry, these products are not cheap and the manufacturers have a lot of competition to try to flog us all kinds of gadgets, so they clearly need to come up with something that will definitely be useful and can make them a lot of money. Then there's the production side, so for example you can go do some kind of media course and then learn the tools you need to go into video game production - that's one route that has been taken by many. You have to be hungry for the opportunity, you've got to approach companies and tell them, "I could do this for you, let me try to show you what I can do." You might have to do a bit of unpaid work to prove yourself but it is a good time for young people to try to get into the industry given that it is growing so quickly. Don't pigeon hole yourself in one area of the industry, don't say "I want to do this and nothing else" - keep an open mind, keep exploring your options. There's also content creation, journalism - there's so much media dedicated to this industry now and you can find different ways to make money from it. Then think about the amount of products and merchandise that gets sold, there's always work for salesmen in the industry and they earn loads of commissions. Many pro teams are spending a lot of money on their players to help them develop their mind and body.

Alex: Well. It's just that I am an older man who took a very different career path, I work in a very different industry and I have a different perspective. I think it is great for someone to find something they are passionate about for their careers, but I want to see how this can lead to a career that will allow a young person to eventually be able to earn a living and pay their bills. So as an uncle, I look at my nephew spending so much time or even too much time playing computer games - I don't know how to react. Do I encourage him to pursue his passions? Does he have what it takes to make money in this industry? Or even if he is not amongst the world top 1% or even 5% in the games he play, can he still somehow find a career in this industry doing what he enjoys most whilst still being able to earn a living and pay the bills?

David: I have seen young people who have the full support of their families when they embark on their careers so they are thus able to focus on developing their skills and becoming better at what they do. I had none of that from my family unfortunately. You need that at the very beginning, before you actually can sign with a company who will want you as part of their team and then it becomes their job to take care of you, taking some pressure off the family. If I had support from my family, I would have gotten so much further, so much faster, if I didn't have to have that constant fight with my parents, trying to prove myself to my family, that would have made such a massive difference. I was at an event recently in Poland, this kid about 16 years old brought his dad along - like his father wasn't going to allow that child to travel to Poland to this event on his own as he was only 16, but you should've seen his dad. He had never ever seen anything like that before, he was blown away by the whole situation, seeing his son compete professionally at an event like that. He saw how much money was invested in the events, how many corporate sponsors there were, how well set up the whole structure was and how well his son was taken care of - he was speechless. I was talking to him, he was asking me for advice about what he should do next for his son. But it was evident that this 16 year old kid was truly amazing at what he was doing, he was a real talent. If your nephew is really interested, then you need to support him and be there for him.

Alex: Surely what you're describing is contingent on my nephew having any real talent in eSports. I must confess, I don't touch computer games at all, I have no idea what games my nephew plays, I have no idea if he is any good at them, I know nothing. So what if my nephew is not that great at it, what if his scores are average or above average but he's definitely not in the top 5% in the world, what then? What if he is just average? Some players actually have fairly mediocre scores. What if he has passion but little or zero talent? Should I still encourage him to attend eSports events? 

David: Well, they would realize and give up soon, eventually. It's pointless at the end of the day to pursue something that you're just not particularly good at, if you just can't learn fast enough. There's an element of honesty, like if you know you're bad at something, then you'll just eventually move on and find something else that you are good at doing. Few people would spend so much time on something that they are crap at. They will develop new interests, find something else and that's what young people do. For myself, even if I didn't go into pro-gaming, I would still be working somewhere in the industry because I am passionate about this, this is where my interests lie. And if it is what your nephew truly enjoys and is passionate about, then he can find a job in the industry one way or another. There's nothing to stop your nephew from attending events to learn more about gaming, volunteering at such events to make more contacts and networking with others who love gaming as much as he does. Give him a chance to find out for himself what he wants. Try to follow exactly what he is doing, find out more, always talk to him and find out what he thinks. That's the only way you're going to find out how good he is and what he is capable of. Open his eyes to the options he has, discuss things like a media or game development course that could then lead to a career in the gaming industry - the rest is up to him.

Alex: Well David, thanks very much for your time and your help today. I hope my readers will benefit from this interview!