Let me tell you a little bit about how I came to the UK and settled here. I first came to the UK as a student in 1997 for university, I applied for many scholarships and had received several offers. I chose to accept one from my university as it didn't come with a bond - I was wary about committing myself to a job even before my starting my degree. I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do at that age, so. I opted for a scholarship that didn't come with a bond so as to keep my options open. So in the last year of my university, I started applying for jobs and got an offer, which I accepted and started working in London. I truly enjoyed living and working in London - it is a brilliant city and the thought of returning to work in Singapore became more and more remote. After all, I had spent the first 21 years of my life in Singapore - it was now my chance to see the rest of the world! I since went on to work in many more cities around Europe and the Middle East on various contracts (Istanbul, Bratislava, Frankfurt, Dubai, Prague, Geneva to name a few) and the more I worked abroad, the more I liked it. Oh some the adventures I have had over the years.
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| Limpeh in Istanbul. |
Here's how it works in the UK - once you have worked in the UK for 5 years (time spent as a student under a student visa does NOT count towards these 5 years), then you can apply for permanent leave to remain (Singaporeans refer to this as 'permanent residency'/PR). After you have held permanent leave to remain status for 2 years, you can apply to be a citizen. At every stage of the process, you're subjected to tests (standard of English, knowledge of life in the UK, your ability to earn a living, how much money you have etc) to ensure that you are the kind of person the UK wants. There is a points system to make this evaluation more straight forward and this has been modeled on the immigration system of other countries like Australia and Canada which have been using it for years.
So why did I choose to take on British citizenship? After all, at one stage, I was a Singaporean expatriate in the UK with permanent right to remain in the UK (ie. as a 'permanent resident' in the UK) - there was no restriction on my rights to work or step up a business in the UK, so why did I take the next step to take on British citizenship, knowing that I had to give up my Singaporean citizenship in the process since Singapore does not allow for dual-nationality?
| Life in Britain has so much to offer. |
Firstly, it was far easier to work all over the EU with a British passport and I was able to take advantage of so many more opportunities, take on so many more contracts with a British passport thanks to freedom of movement of labour within the EU - I can get off the plane in another EU country and hit the ground running with full rights to work. With a Singapore passport, it would've been more complicated, far more paperwork involved etc. It wouldn't have been impossible, but it would've been more difficult and I didn't want to be disadvantaged in the job market.
Secondly, it's far more advantageous to work in Singapore as an FT than a Singaporean! Don't hate the player, hate the game - blame the PAP, don't blame the foreigners. The PAP created a regime whereby I was far better off working in Singapore as a British expatriate than as a Singaporean returning to work in S'pore - NS reservist liability, CPF etc. The system was geared towards attracting talented expatriates at the expense of locals who were expected to put up with the injustice in the name of being patriotic. Given that I am not interested in buying a HDB flat in Singapore (I already have two properties in London), can someone please give me a reason to hold on to my pink IC?
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| NS for Singaporeans, jobs for FTs. |
Well, I hear a lot of you saying, "yeah but your parents are here right? My parents are here too, that's why I am still here." If I may be painfully blunt, I never got along with my mother - I had a terrible relationship with her ever since I was a child and we drove each other up the wall. She was impossible to please and her approval was impossible to get - everything I did seemed to make her angry. My academic records (not one, not two, but three scholarships) coupled with my achievement in sports would have been any Singaporean parents' wet dream - but she still hated practically everything I did and was never satisfied. There was no mutual trust, no mutual respect.
It took us such a long time to learn how to have a civil relationship as an adults and if I may be blunt, I will never feel close to her, she will never understand me and I think it's just way too late to try to foster anything more than a superficial, polite relationship as we spent my formative years so distant and not understanding each other. It sounds really cold of me to say that, but that's the uncensored truth. Not everyone has happy childhood memories of getting along with their parents but few of us dare to talk about it publicly - here's a song from my childhood that really captured that feeling of frustration I had with my mother as a child.
The PAP would rather people like myself who do choose to leave just shut up and disappear - because the anomaly of me returning to S'pore to work as an FT simply exposes just how disadvantaged locals are under the PAP's system which is so pro-FT and discriminates against local Singaporeans (CPF, NS liabilities). Why am I being rewarded for giving up my Singaporean passport by the Singaporean system? Why aren't Singaporeans who were patriotic and held on to their Singaporean passports rewarded instead?
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| How important is one's nationality anyway? |
Many Singaporeans are simply playing into the hands on the PAP by labeling people like me quitters and unpatriotic, but they don't pause for a moment and think - hang on, there is something wrong with the system if this guy is better off in Singapore as an FT than as a Singaporean. The government did invest a lot of money in me (2 scholarships in my JC days: humanities scholarship + SSC scholarship) and the fact that I chose to develop my career abroad (rather than say returning to work for a statutory board like the URA) represents a brain drain from Singapore that has been going on for years - Singapore has been hemorrhaging talented, well educated people who can leave and do move abroad for a better life after having benefited from the Singaporean education system.
Thus these Singaporeans who do not have the option of leaving often lash out at individuals like myself who do have that option and have taken it - that's terribly misguided to say the least. Why blame us when you should be blaming the government who created such a system in the first place? If these people had the option to leave, many of them probably would as well - but that's a hypothetical question which they will often claim, "Never! I love Singapore and am patriotic, unlike you turncoat traitors!" And I'm like, yeah dude, you're stuck there, no other country will take someone like you, so you may as well love what you're stuck with.
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| You love Singapore but does Singapore love you? |
Mind you, I knew this person back in Singapore... let's call her MK. Now I mean no disrespect to MK but she would never gain enough points on the Australian/Canadian/British immigration system to ever gain entry to these countries, so she used to tell me, "Singapore is where I grew up, it is where my heart is, it is where my family is, I will never abandon it. I may not like the PAP, I do not support the PAP - of course things are not perfect here but I am staying and fighting for a better Singapore because I love Singapore and the people here, this is where I belong... blah blah blah." Guess what? A few years later, she married an Australian and was on the next plane out to Australia. (As a spouse she gets to by pass the entire points based entry system.) She is now an Australian citizen and has given up her pink IC. What happened to all her ideals about fighting for a better Singapore now eh? I suspect there are probably many Singaporeans out there like MK who would do exactly what she did if given the opportunity to leave.
This brain drain of individuals like myself leaves a gap which the government is gladly filling with foreign talents from China, the Philippines, India and other countries. Now this is leading to all kinds of social problems, upsetting the locals who have been taken aback by this influx of migrants in recent years. Allow me to point out the obvious please: rather than desperately trying to replace the brain drain with new migrants, why not try to instead retain Singaporean talent whom the government have invested so much in? How about leveling the playing field when it comes to Singaporean males who are trying to compete with FTs in Singapore with the odds stacked against them?
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| Does this bring back memories guys? |
So who do you blame in this situation? The government may claim, "if people like Limpeh didn't leave Singapore in the first place, we wouldn't need all these foreigners to come and work in Singapore. The brain drain has created a gap that we have to fill one way or another." To which I would reply, "if Singaporean males were treated more fairly under your system, then I might have considered working in Singapore as a Singaporean. Fix your system first, don't blame us for leaving when your system is so inherently unfair and discriminates against male Singaporeans." Is it a chicken and egg situation? Why hasn't this unfair system been challenged yet after all these years?
But no, the government is simply not going to do anything about the situation for the simple reason: the vast majority of Singaporeans are not able to simply leave and move to another country because countries like Australia, the UK and Canada have raised the bar of entry over the years. It was far easier to emigrate to such countries in the 1990s and 2000s, but ever since the recent recession hit, many of these countries have raised the bar of entry to try to protect their locals who are facing raising unemployment. Thus the PAP can quite easily sit back and say, "你有本事走你走啦!" (translation: feel free to leave if you think you have the ability to do so!) knowing that the vast majority of Singaporeans in 2013 will probably not have the 本事to 走 and have no other choice but to remain in Singapore.
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| Can you move to Australia? It depends on how highly qualified you are. |
Hence those of us who do leave are subjected to so much resentment... It's like poor people waiting at a bus stop in the pouring rain feeling resentful and angry when they see a rich man driving down the road in a beautiful, expensive car. "How dare you drive to work in such a nice car when the rest of us are suffering, getting wet in the rain, waiting for the bus which is crowded and already late? Get out of that nice car and come and suffer with us in the bus stop!" The driver in the nice car would turn around and simply say, "Life's not fair, I can afford a car - you can't. I could take the bus like you, but why would I when I can drive my nice car to work? Why should I suffer like you when I don't have to?"
By that same token, I get the feeling that a lot of my haters expect me to return to Singapore and suffer the same injustices they do under the Singaporean system - what can I say, misery loves company. (I did serve my full 2 years 4 months of national service from January 1995 to May 1997.) Perhaps in highlighting my story and experiences, I am reminding them just how screwed they are under this very unfair system - but isn't this simply them shooting the messenger for the message? Okay perhaps there's an element of me rubbing salt in the wound for them, but would you rather everyone kept quiet about just how inherently unfair the system in Singapore is? Ask yourself this: how much are you willing to put up with before you finally say, enough is enough, that's it, I am leaving because the government has gone too far this time. Remember the way they sneaked the MDA's Broadcast Act into the law without even debating it in parliament - what next? Are you going to turn the other cheek and keep silent every time this happens?
At the end of the day, I am a rational, pragmatic person who considered the pros and cons of holding on to my Singaporean passport vs giving it up - and after having considered all the factors I came to the decision I did and became a British citizen, especially given how I mortified I am in the way the PAP has been running Singapore in the last 10 years and the direction they are heading. For the sake of a balanced argument, I have come up with a few reasons to hold on to a Singaporean passport to conclude this piece.
1. It would be easier to buy a HDB flat. (But then again, if you're able to meet the criteria to obtain nationality in the West, you should be able to buy property on the private market without any government subsidy.)
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| HDB flats in Ang Mo Kio - do you want to buy one of these? |
2. Singaporeans don't need a visa to visit many countries - China, Turkey, Vietnam, Indonesia etc - whilst British travelers need to pay for a visa.
3. Really highly skilled individuals don't really need to worry about what passport they hold - they will be able to get the necessary visas wherever they go. Eduardo Saverin is a resident in Singapore (which country wouldn't roll out the red carpet for a man like him) - but he is not taking Singaporean nationality.
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| Eduardo Saverin |
4. Holding on to a Singaporean passport means still being able to vote in Singaporean elections and influence the outcome of future elections, even standing for elections if that's what you want (but it's not what I want).
5. The luxury of avoiding long queues when you land at Changi Airport - goodness me, when you see me stuck behind a bunch of PRC tourists at Changi Airport, give me a sympathetic smile please.
6. I suppose there are those growth dividends from the government, but all those CPF and Medisave contributions do cancel those out - so I am not sure if they're worth hanging around for given that they're only given out sporadically.
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| How much are those growth dividends worth? |
What other benefits are there to hold on to a Singaporean passport? Have you considered moving abroad? Would you if you had the chance? Would you simply acquire PR in another country but still hold on to your Singaporean passport? And more importantly, how much crap from the PAP are you prepared to put up with before you leave, assuming that they still go on and win the next three or four elections? Please let me know by leaving a comment below, thanks!
Update: Part 2 http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/part-2-moving-abroad-answering-your.html











My wife has been keen to move abroad to Australia / Canada but I am not so sure if I would be able to find a job there. She's a ex-primary school teacher in a masters in linguistics so maybe it would be easy for her to find work as a teacher (?).. I have a degree in banking & finance (SIM-UOL) and experience in corporate credit evaluation. Are corporate banking related jobs easy for foreigners to find overseas? We are one of those who always say want to leave but never come around to leaving.
ReplyDeleteHi there Poor dad, you're right that your wife will probably find work easily, as for you - corporate banking related jobs are not that easy to get into, it depends on your work experience and I don't know enough about corporate credit evaluation to tell you if that is a field that is easy to get into in Oz/Canada.
DeleteGetting the right job depends so much on being at the right place at the right time, or as we say in Singlish 'got lobang'. It's not easy moving to a new country - but a lot of it depends on whether you have friends there to help you settle in and help you get 'lobang' with jobs, employment opportunities etc. Do you already have friends in Oz/Can~?
same thinking.bro.singapore is just an island man. my number is 86869933. we should get along. email is westfire666@gmail.com.
DeleteHi there,
ReplyDeleteI love what you have written and seriously, I am considering to move out too. The Singapore system is really repressive and it's really disadvantageous to the males too. I have plans in the making and I hope to achieve the same success that you have had experienced getting out of this "democracy".
Yeah it all depends on the individual. Some segments of society benefit from pro-business policies while the rest don't. It all depends on whether present government policies have affected you to such an extent as to make life unbearable here.
ReplyDeleteIndeed tempting! Life in the UK!
http://therealsingapore.com/content/why-i-gave-my-pink-ic
Interesting comments, read the comments you have some dating opportunities out there for you if you r still single lol.
Alamak I think that Samantha is joking lah, Limpeh is waaaaaaaaay too old for her, I am 37, she should be dating someone around her own age. And I am not single but am very flattered by her attention. I am a balding older Ah Beng with a fierce stare that's all :) What do you call older Ah Bengs? Lau Bengs? That's me lah :)
DeleteNot everyone has done badly in Singapore - just look at the GDP figures, somebody must be doing well there and for those who are, they will think that Singapore is paradise. But for those of us who are more interested in politics than shopping/eating/other stuff Singaporeans enjoy, then the political climate there is a major push factor that drives us out of Singapore.
Yeah I read all the comments. I just wanted to say in response that no life isn't perfect here, life isn't perfect in any of the cities I have lived and worked in (look at what is happening to my beloved Istanbul today, it is so sad yet inspiring when you see the way the people are fighting for their rights against an oppressive government there). But then again, my point is that Singapore, like all other cities, has a mix of pros and cons - no city in the world is ideal or without faults. We simply look at the mix of good and bad points each city has to offer and then we decide, where we would be happier spending our adult lives working, which city has to most to offer in terms of what we're looking for.
Each and every single one of us will have a checklist entitled "stuff I want out of life" - this check list will be different for every single one of us as we're all unique individuals, so it's simply being able to match the conditions of each city to our check list and seeing how many boxes we can tick. Unfortunately for me, I couldn't tick that many boxes for Singapore ... so that's why I left for other cities where I could tick more boxes. But hey, sometimes, we can be swayed and one big tick can change everything - such as in 2011 when I returned to work in Singapore as an FT for half a year, why? Money. It's that simple, I was offered a lucrative contract and money trumped everything else. Once you took away that money, I was like, no thanks, without that super lucrative FT contract, Singapore isn't that attractive anymore, I'm going back to London...
The UK actually has a system that is more well set-up in the aspects of healthcare and even the owning of property and such. That is at least as far as I can recall based on my short visit to it in 2007. Canada has a similar system(which is what I am familiar with, having lived there for a while). On the various reasons which you noted and your observations about Singaporeans' aversion to those who leave the country(based often on jealousy and envy), I would agree. Titles like "quitter", "drifter", "traitor", have often been bandied around by people, and as you might remember, it was used by a particular politician to try shaming those who do leave, as if it would work to deter them.....The basis is very Confucian, in trying to appeal to "face"(mianzi), but I doubt that it works for anyone who is determined to leave, even if for a short while. It is so true that misery loves company, and having experienced that name-calling firsthand, I can totally see where you are coming from. The ones calling us out with these names are losers for the most part though, since to begin with, we got out of the country.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I met a Korean-American missionary once in Japan, who was a missionary to Burma and visiting his other missionary friends in Japan for a short while to preach. He told me that he had many Singaporean friends who moved out of the country, and they all had the same grounds for leaving, whether for work overseas or immigration: since the place is not that much better than anywhere and chances abound elsewhere, one ought to learn to make use of that and leave the terrible system behind. What he observed was also this: even if these Singaporeans did not manage to qualify for a citizenship or permanent residency in any one of the countries such as the USA, UK, Canada or Australia, they chose to live in another country such as Thailand, the Philippines and so on and develop a business there. I believe that Singaporeans have been taught to scoff at other developing countries, and even developed countries like South Korea and Taiwan, as if they are inferior, but if one takes all the false glitter and glamor of a city like Singapore aside, living in these countries might probably bring about a great deal of joy or excitement more than we might expect.
Did you take back anything from CPF?
ReplyDeleteA tiny amount - I never worked in Singapore as a Singaporean citizen (NS doesn't count as there are no CPF contributions with NS pay), but the government drip fed my CPF account with bits and pieces into my good old POSB account, so when I closed my S'pore bank account, I found a bit of money there which I wasn't expecting - like a goodbye gift from the Singaporean govt, LOL.
DeleteMy reply must have gone missing somewhere... was wondering how long it took for you to have your CPF back from the moment you gave up your pink IC? A couple of years?
DeleteOh it was fast, I think it took approximately 2 weeks. I filled up some forms and the amount was transferred into my UK bank account like magic within 2 weeks.
DeleteNot sure if I have replied to this already but here we go again - it took a few weeks. It was v efficient actually.
DeleteBtw, Happy Queen's Birthday :D
ReplyDeleteThanks - but it isn't a public holiday! I am still working as it's a Monday!!
DeleteYeap. I'm in London now and everyone's working as per normal.
DeleteHi Royston, you need to do some research - find out what country you'll like to move to (eg. Canada), find out what skills are in demand in that country (eg. nurses are highly valued and in short supply) and get the relevant skills to move to that country if you are really that keen to make that move.
ReplyDeleteI would love to migrate to Canada.. Working on it.. Can't wait to get out of this stifling country...
ReplyDeleteHey Limpeh! I chanced upon your article and I would say that your article is very well thought through. I am working in Germany but I am still holding on to my IC because strangely, I am proud to be a Singaporean even though of its several flawed policies. As a result of that, I think you can guess that I disagree with you on several points but this is not the reason why I decided to write a comment.
ReplyDeleteFor years, I have heard so much complaints from friends about PAP and Singapore. Some of them were envious of people like me who left Singapore for a job somewhere else in the world. The work-life balance and perks in working in Germany being so much better (e.g. 30 days of leaves :D). So many complaints but that is all they do. No one took the step to actually leave Singapore. I guess the fear of the unknown and leaving their comfort zone deter many.
Maybe you could write an article (if you have not already) on the potential difficulties of working in another city? I guess this might be helpful for some people who are interested in working overseas. For example, like for the concept of apartment rental or the dating scene for Singaporean guys in Europe. :D These will make an interesting topic I guess.
Cheers!
Hi Melvyn, I have already written some articles on working abroad in the past:
Deletehttp://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/for-naedyn-working-abroad-part-2.html
http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/eight-tips-for-working-abroad.html
I would leave in a heartbeat. I don't have close ties in SG, like you I had a very strained relationship with my dad and step-mother. My wife is from PRC and is not working in SG.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately China doesn't give out work visa or green slips that easily but I have the added advantage of marriage to a citizen. In fact there are so many more opportunities to make money there which are not available in SG due to the gahmen and greedy landlords (T.Holdings).
Once I secured my HDB and saved enough funds I going over and saying goodbye.
Out of curiosity, what occupation do you hold?
ReplyDeleteI am a marketing strategist and consultant who works with hedge funds - I talk more about it here http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/is-degree-really-that-important.html
DeleteI have always worked in financial services, previously I was working for a fund manager - though I also dabble in the arts scene in London to make sure I do have a healthy work life balance: works + sports + arts = a happy healthy Limpeh :)
Hi LFT,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the interesting article & blog that you've shared. I would like to be in your shoes if I could, it's pretty admirable.
I've just graduated with a commerce degree (finance major) from an Australian uni, and would like to stay on to work here but am unable to because of visa reasons (SG doesn't have a working holiday visa arrangement with OZ). Well, I'm still hoping to get a dependency visa (as my fiancee's still studying in Australia) to seek employment opportunities down under. Would be cool if you've got any advice for undergrads like me.
Btw, have a great week ahead! Cheers
Hi Fudoshin, I have already written articles on finding that ideal job:
Deletehttp://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/finding-that-ideal-job.html
http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/q-getting-job-in-finance.html
http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/q-jobs-in-banking-part-2.html
http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/2012-lesson-2-job-interviews.html
Oh great, thanks for that!
DeleteThanks for sharing your thoughts. I am thinking exactly like you, but I want to migrate to Japan. Singapore is the only country which constantly subject it's male citizens to very unfair NS reservist liability while the foreigners enjoy everything. That's why I never wanted to go back, and if can, just hit the MCs to escape this reservist. It's a waste of time totally.
ReplyDeleteI really hope after GE2016 things will become better with more Opposition MPs inside parliament, 1/3 or maybe even 50%. Despite the constant screw ups by the PAP, Singaporeans still constantly voted in the PAP with large majority. It really disappoints me that Singaporeans still blindly voted this useless PAP into power despite their screw ups. That is why, by GE2016, if Singaporeans still return the PAP to power with overwhelming majority, I will try and migrate out of this shithole country as well. No way I want to sink with the 60% idiots who enjoy being screwed constantly.
I share your sentiments ... but the question I want to ask is this: what if the PAP wins again in 2016? Then what? Are people going to wait till 2021? And if they win again then, then what?
DeleteMaybe one should entertain the possibility that the PAP will always be in charge with an increasingly vocal, unhappy, frustrated 40+% who are pro-opposition but still in the minority. Then what?
LIFT, I echo your sentiments about this. I voted for the first time in 2006 then, although I was already preparing to leave for Canada then, and after being back for a while in 2011 just for half a year or so(and having voted alongside that the second season), I have come to the conclusion that it is very likely the opposition will not actually gain much headway, considering the apathy and fear that still prevails.
DeleteAs for Ore no Blog ya nen, I am not trying to dampen your spirits, Ore, especially since I believe that moving out of Singapore is good for people for the most part, but that said, perhaps Ore might want to look again at the various possibilities. It is very hard to get permanent residency in Japan as far as I am aware(I am currently working here in the interim till summer 2014), and it does not just boil down to knowledge of Japanese to get citizenship. You need to have lived for a certain number of years and worked in Japan(not including the time you spent as a student in Japan, if you want to study there), and even after getting a permanent residency, or citizenship or being able to speak good Japanese, as an Asian of non-Japanese heritage, you will always be an outsider here in Japan. The Japanese are actually rather obvious in the way they treat foreigners, at least those of 'white' heritage, insofar as there are lots of occasions in which you can get away with things, while it might not always be that case for others who are Asian by heritage.
The point is, do your homework before you come here to Japan, and so that you can settle in with friends--even if they are not Japanese.
To Ore and Kevin, here's more info on getting Japanese citizenship:
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law
Like Ore, I used to look forward to migrating to Japan because of all the fantasy that I had about Japan. But now that I'm actually here, I wonder if I've really made the right choice. I was like one of those delirious people Limpeh talked about - those who cant leave SG and choose to love what they are stuck with - except that for me I'm stuck in Japan, not SG. Until a while ago, I used to convince myself that I loved Japan, and that I wanted to be here for the rest of my life. I did so because I have a Japanese boyfriend and I want to be with him, and I also know that he has no intention of leaving Japan. But recently I've come to terms with myself. I've accepted that I don't like Japan as much as before, but I don't have to like Japan in order to love my boyfriend. So yeah, Japan is not a bed of roses and since Singaporeans can speak English, you might as well use that to your advantage and migrate to a English-speaking country which tend to have a better environment. The Japanese are like frogs in a well - they look up to ang-mohs and treat them like a different entity, but failed to realise that being a foreigner might not necessarily mean that we must be white. It's double disadvantage to be a non-Japanese Asian in Japan - you are as clueless as any ang-moh when it comes to Japanese culture but expected to act and know everything like a Japanese. Talk about double standards.
Cheers,
Amber Chong
Hi Ore. I migrated to Tokyo since January 2013 (almost) immediately after graduating from a local University. Like what Kevin said it is most advisable to do your homework - there is no such thing as a perfect place.
DeleteHi Kevin, I assume you are working in Tokyo? Let's meet up over dinner =)
Kudos to you for pointing these deficiencies in the sg system so well. I'm currently in my 3rd year of working in the US, and can definitely identify with much of how the system you stated is stacked against citizens. I would like to point out a couple of things though:
ReplyDelete1) You (and I both, I guess) had the extreme privilege of coming overseas for our tertiary education. This is a luxury that is unfortunately not shared by a large majority of Singaporean Citizens
2) Not many of us (fortunately or unfortunately) share the same relationship with you as you did with your mom, and probably cannot isolate that particular segment of our emotional attachment in the same way you did.
3) Working/Living overseas come with its own set of unique challenges. Some of these really did push myself to levels of independence I never knew I had. This is not a bad thing at all, but most Singaporeans who spent their formative years in Singapore have a great deal of social capital accumulated and integrated into their Singaporean lives. I think Singaporeans hoping to emigrate should be aware of the loss of such social capital.
4) I understand that the purpose of the post is to explain why you dropped your citizenship, but what would you like to see done as a result of this? Should things change, and how? Should other Singaporeans choose a similar route, and how?
Hi Limpeh, I chanced upon your blog and have been reading almost every one of your previous posting. I am sick and tired of the way Singapore is being run, the relentless pursuit for GDP growth at the expense of everything else. I am guilty of being a whiner in the past, the NATO type of Singaporean? No-Action-Talk-Only.
ReplyDeleteAfter the release of the white paper of 6.9mil, I felt I had enough. I have made plans to leave for Australia. I am lucky in the sense that I managed to get my PR before they raised the bar. I feel that it is an uphill battle to try to convince the 60.1% of my fellow countrymen to vote otherwise. Perhaps there may be some minor breakthrough in 2016, but it will not be sufficient to turn things around.
My relationship with my dad is quite similar to yours. As I read your blog, it feels as though you were echoing my thoughts and my sentiments. Truly, respect has to be earned. One cannnot insist that he/she has to be respected just because of age. My dad is very critical towards me. No achievement of mine is good enough for him. He will always have something negative to comment. In his eyes, I am always in the wrong, guilty, arrogant, lazy. Besides telling me that in my face, he used to even say that to my friends who called up our place.
Thank goodness I have moved out. I no longer have to face endless criticism. I cannot recall any instance whereby my dad has affirm me or make a positive remark to me.
Limpeh, I think you are awesome in terms of your achievement and I like your style of writing and your guts! Please continue blogging!
JA
Thanks so much for your kind comments. I got a lot of really nasty comments and hatemail from people who thought that I had crossed the line when I confessed to having a very distant relationship with my mother - it's not that I am criticizing her per se, but such is the way things were. We were never close, I felt she never made an effort to understand me and that's fine - that's because of the generation gap and the language barrier that created such a gulf between us that cannot be bridged.
DeleteI can be nice to her, I can buy her beautiful gifts and try to impress her with my career achievements etc - but all that is just SUPERFICIAL because fundamentally, she doesn't know who her son is. And I have tried so many times over the years to try to engage her on what is going on in my life, what I wanna do, what my ambitions are, why I do the things I do - such as diving for example, my latest passion http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/yet-another-one-of-limpehs-diving-videos.html In fact I had a terrible day at diving yesterday, I wiped out big time on a dive, got 'spooked' and kept crashing for like the next ten dives, epic belly flops every time and then I got so frustrated and mad at myself for cracking under pressure - then I had to fight with my nerves, try to remain zen and do a couple of good dives before I leave the pool.
I have tried to explain to my mother why I dive and put myself out there, at the age of 37, learning a new sport that can be very unforgiving on the body - and she just doesn't get it at all. All she can say is, "if you get injured then cannot work, den how? Your boss will not be happy." I'm like, excuse me, my boss has seen my diving videos on youtube (whilst my mother hasn't) and my boss is very impressed at how good my diving is - she is horrified that I am doing diving and just wants me to stop but I'm like, can you try and listen to me explain to why I want to do this? No, she isn't interested, she just thinks I am going to crack my skull open on the diving board one day and she will say I told you so.
So it's not for a lack of effort on my part to reach out to her - she just has nothing but hatred for anything I do and I kinda got the feeling that there's some deep dark family secret as to why she cannot bring herself to like anything I do; or why anything I do is never good enough for her or why I can't ever make her happy despite everything I have achieved. Sigh.
I used to grow up thinking that I was such a freak, such a bad son, that I was such an awful person that even my own mother cannot love me, that she really hated me so much. I used to wonder why she hated me so much and perhaps it's because her own mother never loved her (oh you should see my late grandmother) ... but nowadays, I'm happy enough to be nice to her, but let's face it, we will never be close, we will never understand each other and that's not my fault - it's mostly hers.
I would say ignore those hate mails, it aint worth your time. They ought to put themselves in your shoes and walk around in them before commenting. If you dont care about your parents, dont care about their views of you, you will not feel so affected by their action and words. It is because they do matter to you.
DeleteDont we all wish we have a close and good relationship with our parents? Truth is, not all of us will be able to do so regardless how hard we try.
Being close doesn't necessarily mean they have to agree with everything you do or say. It is more about understanding who you are, your personality, your passions etc.
I agree with your last point. My dad had a terrible relationship with my late grandfather. That may result in him being lacking in parenting skills. However, I do feel that if he had bothered to reflect, he would know that he should not repeat the mistakes made by his own dad.
I had a old secondary school friend who also had a difficult relationship with her parents. She used to tell me that she would write down in her diary the mistakes that her parents made, so that she will not repeat them when she becomes one. She was determined that such poor parenting skills must end in her generation.
Thanks for your kind words Xiongmao. It's not that I don't care about my parents, it's just that we never became close when I was a child growing up and I have realized I am never going to become close to them as an adult - which is painful when I look at some of my friends who are close to their parents. You know, my parents were there from me from the day I was born and you'd like to think that they've known me longer than anyone else (well, there's also my 2 older siblings who were there when I was born in KK hospital that fateful day) - but why is it my parents hardly know me at all despite my efforts to reach out to them to explain to them who I am, whom I have become, what I'd like to do etc - they are not interested at all. But when my mother was bullied by a relative, I was one of the first people to stand up for her: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/limpeh-needs-your-help.html But between me and her ... we're just distant, very very distant and whilst the relationship is no longer antagonistic, I feel a deep sense of regret that we never ever felt close.
DeleteI don't blame her actually, I blame the generation gap, the language barrier and such were her challenges in raising a child in Singapore.
Sorry I just realized I had contradicted myself - previously i blamed her and now I say I blame the generation gap and the language barrier. I guess I don't quite know what to make of it or who to blame. I spent ages blaming myself and I suppose it's just so much easier to blame it on an abstract concept like 'the generation gap' so let all parties off the hook.
DeleteHi there, interesting read and a personal perspective on why you left SG. You have your own reasons for leaving SG. There seems to be no personal and economic reasons for you to stay and there's also sociopolitical reasons for you to leave. I don't think anyone in your shoes will want to remain. But when others have different reasons pulling them in both directions, it really is up to the individual to decide on his own, isn't it? Is any reason to stay or leave more (or less) valid than any other?
ReplyDeleteIs your personal experience typical of most Singaporeans? If not, then surely there should be more people who will stay (or even return) even if they have the chance to leave?
No, my experience isn't typical - I was very lucky to have been given the opportunities I had so as to have been in a position to choose to work abroad - one thing led to another and the rest is history ...
DeleteWhen I was persuing my studies, i heard my relative from the neighbouring country was lured to work in Singapore by some MP, her visa was applied speedily and she landed with a job in social service, however when i attained similar qualification like her, a Master Degree, i did tried to apply for many positions at this moments, not a single one responded to me.. I had a good result, and my university have better ranking that her university...so tell ne what's wrong with me...Why she as foriegner have golden apportunites and i m not..
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to hear that Hafifi - but what can I say? I've heard other similar stories about Singaporeans being discriminated by their own government ... this is such a bizarre country - find me another country where their own citizens are treated like 2nd class citizens in their own country.
DeleteHi LFT,
ReplyDeleteim came across your article from TRS and i would like to say thank you for giving me some inspirations on how to deal with the situation that we Singaporeans are facing.
I love the way you write and have begun reading all your previous articles. I too share the same perspective with you and would like to move out of Singapore after i graduate however with the current standards set by SAF and other countries raising the bar, chances are quite slim. :(
keep up with the good work and have a great week ahead!
currently a student right now, just ord not too long ago :)
Hi there, I will give you the same advice I gave everyone else - at this stage in your life, choose VERY carefully what you want to study. Don't study something useless that won't help you in the immigration process, choose something that countries like Canada, Australia etc will recognize as a valuable skill and you will be able to move to those countries with ease. Good luck and you know where to find me if you need help with that.
Deletehaha, thanks a lot. im taking a dip in buisness management right now in SIM, probably will take either a degree in UOL or RMIT next year but still unsure of which course to study.
Deletei like numbers and accounting and all those stuff but am unsure what my future would be in the finance industry...
btw where can i find you ? here? or do u have a email ?
Hi LFT
ReplyDeleteI dun quite understand the resent towards NS reservist. After all, we dun lose out financially when that 2wks there, neither will employers punish for this short period of absence. At worse it is a finite 10y serving and it will be the same after.
Regarding CPF, FT lose out on the employers contribution percentage. In fact, solutions are created to equalize FT opportunity cost compared to locals in this direction. *BTW i am a big advocate against having too much in CPF
Hi Josh, I welcome your questions & comments. Allow me to respond please. I can't speak on behalf of other Singaporean men, but I will speak about my own case and I am sure I share plenty in common with other working Singaporean men, yeah?
Delete1. I work for a rather small company and when things get busy, it's all hands on deck, working till midnight and everyone pulling their weight. My employers reward me for my loyalty - now imagine if they said, "we have a major event coming up in August and we need you to run the media & PR campaign for it" and I had to reply, "sorry I can't, I have to go for reservist". Now I know there are times when you can defer your reservist (eg. wife about to give birth, just started a new business etc) but simply stating, "it is a busy time for my company" is not a valid excuse to defer one's reservist activities.
So it is not about losing out financially for the time spent there, it is about what I may cost my employers if I have to disappear for 2 weeks during a crucial time. Sure by law, employers cannot 'punish' you for going to reservist for 2 weeks etc, but in the long run, it does affect your relationship with your employer if they know that they're not going to have the same problem with a PRC or Pinoy.
I like being in control of my time - so I can arrange to take holidays when I know I am going to be more free at work and yes, I do consult with my boss whenever I wanna disappear say for a nice 3 - 4 week long holiday and we'll decide when that would be least disruptive to the work I do, then they know I care deeply about my job. I am rewarded for my loyalty in the long run and I do feel a sense of responsibility, particularly in a small company where my presence is indeed felt.
Josh, you seem to be looking at it entirely from your point of view but I am looking at it from my boss's point of view. I guess if you have a job you don't enjoy, then disappearing from it from 2 weeks may be a welcome break - but I do enjoy my job and I like the fact that I am interacting with highly intelligent, highly skilled professionals who constantly challenge me to perform at my very best. I really didn't enjoy my time in NS - it was mostly trying to keep my mouth shut, keep a low profile so that you don't get tekan by the regulars who think they are so much smarter than you. Luckily for me, I speak Hokkien fluently, so I often passed as a Hokkien peng in those days so I could get along with the regulars.
As for CPF, you can't touch it till you retire (or give up your pink IC) - it's sitting in a big pot run by the government. If there are moves to help equalize the FT opportunity costs, then good for you. About time indeed.
Thank You for above information this is very useful and Global Migrate Provide Uk spouse visa Service. Global Migrate is the leading consultant company which provide best UK spouse visa Service.
ReplyDeletehttp://global-migrate.com/uk-spouse-visa.html
having the same sentiments as you,i've been living in melbourne for a short one year and i totally have the same mindset as you of not returning back. cheers
ReplyDeleteMany who have lived abroad come to the same conclusion as they then have something to compare to - it's only those who have never ever been living abroad properly who then default to the 'Singapore is the best' mindset as they have nothing else to compare it with.
DeleteHey LIFT, I do think that having the chance to compare two places would give one the benefit of making a choice between either, so to say, at least on the count of preference. As we all know, Singapore is one of the various countries, which in all its ego and so on, will never allow for citizens to hold two passports. However, I have heard of those who, after having visited extensively or even lived in other countries abroad, still choose to say that "Singapore is the best" or even go to the extent that these other countries 'suck'. It baffles me for the most part, and I can only attribute it to mere ignorance or bigotry (if not being brainwashed about certain things concerning the system overseas in other countries).
DeleteThe most recent article you wrote about departures and your responses to the people who attacked or said disparaging things about London and Europe seem to affirm that especially, because those people were coming across as petulant kids who were too spoilt to acknowledge the real world outside of Singapore. In other words, they are the frogs at the bottom of the well. I sometimes wonder if it is also not true that some people, even despite having traveled outside of Singapore, continue to bring this intolerance of other cultures along with them inside themselves.
How you become PR in Singapore again? "Fake FT"!!!.haha haha!I worked almost work 10 years in Germany. Like anyone have chance to fly off, I will do.
DeleteI have no idea what the hell you're trying to say, if you think that trying to post in Singlish is cute, well it isn't as I have no idea what you're trying to say. Who are you trying to address as there are quite a few people here on this thread? I'm not a PR in Singapore, I'm a British national working/living in London and have not set foot in Singapore in about 2 years and even back then, it was a short visit to see my family.
DeleteHi Limpeh,
ReplyDeletean interesting piece you've written here and indeed thought-provoking. I am a Singaporean who had been living and working in UK for 7years before moving to Norway 2.5years ago, thus living away from Singapore for almost 10 years now. I still have my pink ic and my bright red singapore passport, I am still holding on to them not because I can come up with millions of 'advantages of being a Singaporean' reasoning. I am holding on to them because they are part of my roots, they are part of who I am, just like the singlish I speak =)
I don't think Singapore is the best but at the same time no country is. Singapore is where I was born and bred and it will always be part of me.
Have a good day ahead!
Best Wishes,
Ailing
Hi Ailing, thanks for your comment. May I point out the obvious? You're a woman, right? You're not a man (well, I would assume that Ailing was a woman's name).
DeleteA lot of the disadvantages associated with being Singaporean applies to men (ie. NS + Reservist) but not women (why?!?!) so your experience is clearly different from that of your male counterparts.
Go on, please share your millions of advantages by all means, but spare a thought please for your male Singaporean counterparts and realize just how lucky you are compared to them.
Should one pledge blind loyalty to a country just because one was born & bred there? Or is that loyalty subject to some element of quality control? You seem to be full of lovely, warm fuzzy nostalgia when talking about Singapore - is that warm fuzzy feeling enough to compensate the way the PAP is ruining Singapore?
Brutal facts! Good rebuttal!
DeleteHi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteNice article, possibly one of your best I have read to date! It basically sums up how we feel about being in Singapore now (given that we are planning to migrate to Oz). Of course, besides being behind you in this cycle, I think we are also far less talented :p
Anyway, for LIFT readers, Neurotic Ramblings of a Singaporean Couple documents our migration process to Australia. It's still in progress so wish us luck!
Currently we are waiting for the next invitation to apply for PR on June 17. The Missus has passed her IELTS, Skills Assessment (secondary school teacher) and has submitted her EOI to Australian Immigration... Hope the info on our blog helps! (we don't get paid for it and there are no immediate plans for ad revenue. we just love to blog!)
- Neurotic Ramblings
Thanks guys, I love your blog :)
DeleteThis piece wasn't planned - it started as me replying someone who asked a question in a comment, I exceeded the word limit and thought, I'd turn it into a blog post and then boomz - like 67k hits in 24 hours on my blog, not counting the many more who read it on TRS and over 9000 likes on FB. Crikey.
Hi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteI am just curious how long did it took you to consider before giving up your sg citizenship?
I am in a dilemma myself. I have been in the UK for a year already, really liking it, met a great boyfriend and i am considering emigration in future. But the downside would be convincing my parents.
I have a 'good' relationship with my parents; but i would say that it is more of the political and mutual respect kind, as i am not that close to them and can never pour out my heart to them. The main problem is that they want me to return to sg after my graduation to help them out and they have been trying to see if i am gearing myself towards that direction. I have to put a smokescreen whenever chats like that occurs. I am actually very happy and liking the life in UK that I am seriously considering migration. When I am back in sg, i feel like there is a swirl of warm air surrounding me and no matter how much i bath, i feel horrible. I don't want to go out much because my skin will be flushed red and even if i turn the air conditioning on at home, i feel cold. I don't understand why i will feel so especially when the temperature is set at 20+ degrees celsius and far higher than the average in UK, and then I fell really sick. I really want to go back to UK soon.
My boyfriend wishes that we would settle in the UK in future, and I am really considering taking up UK citizenship in future. However I wish to obtain the right of abode visa and work a few years before giving up sg citizenship. I feel that it would be better if I obtain the UK citizenship through my own merits rather than through my future husband, although sometimes I wonder if there is really any difference between them.
I really don't wish to strain the relationship with my parents, and I hope that they will understand me and my choice. The good thing is that I still have a few more years before i graduate, so it leaves me time to set my plans. I checked the UKBA website but the information given is not really precise, do you know any other place where I can get more information?
cheers! :)
Hi Jas Linda, thanks for your message.
DeleteI know I cannot give you a short reply given the nature of your questions - so if I may ask of you please to bear with me, I will do a full post for you to deal with the various points you've addressed, okay?
Hey Jas Linda, here it is just for you: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/q-jas-lindas-dilemma.html
DeleteMe thinks there is no such thing as a best country. Every country / city has its good and bad. I travel extensively and I miss Singapore whenever I'm out. Because of the Timezone, because of company, because of family and friends.
ReplyDeleteAt the sametime, I hate SG"s weather, and I hate the PAP for their policies over the past 8 years. I love NZ's landscape, but think their economy won't suit me. I like Paris and I stayed there for months, but it was just very lonely despite having very good friends. Every city / country have it's quirks, and we just need to make lemon into lemonade.
I have filled in my British Citizenship application form!
ReplyDeleteI've been in the UK for 8 years now. I don't think I can live in Singapore anymore..the culture is so different. I don't think I will enjoy working in Singapore anymore. UK is a much nicer place to work!
Oh.. I'm looking forward to getting my CPF money! haha!
Hi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteI recently stumbled onto your blog. I am truly amazed. You are perhaps the most prolific blogger in Singapore sociopolitical scene. Your posts are frequent, regular and long but I normally finish them after I start reading because you are indeed a good writer. You answer to most of your commenters and your replies are usually well thought through and long. In terms of quality, I would rank you as second after Singaporean Mind(singaporemind.blogspot.com) who is highly analytical given his engineering training.
I think that some people in our government may not be pleased with what you have been writing but I have no doubt you have been winning many fans. May I know whether you have gotten into any sort of trouble or minor inconvenience with your writings before? This is of interest to me as I am also a blogger but nothing compared to you, of course.
Hi Hyomx2, thanks or your kind words.
DeleteAs for your question, the answer is no, no problems/trouble etc. The only thing which irks me (which I can live with) is that people talk about me on the forums (like EDMW, AsiaOne etc) and bloody hell, they get their facts WRONG. Hey, if you wanna bitch about me, criticize me, at least get your facts right first lah - don't just make up bullshit about me.
There was this stupid blogger who wrote this piece on his blog to attack me and bloody hell, like HALF the things he said were completely untrue and I'm like, come on, you can do better than that! I don't mind if people don't like me, I don't even care if people hate my guts - but I do get really pissed off if people make up lies and come up with completely untrue bullshit about me.
Having said that, the fact that people actually wanna talk about me is beyond me - what's so interesting about me? I'm no celebrity :)
Aw man. :( I had a massive comment and it got thrown away for some reason...
ReplyDeleteHere we go again...
For those who aren't as academically strong as Limpeh was, didn't go to the best school(s), didn't have a family that could send them overseas to study...
...you can still get out. You can still make it.
Cross fingers for me. My current employer is sponsoring me for Australian PR when I hit 2 years in October 2014. And hopefully by the end of 2015, I'll have that PR, and be on the road to citizenship.
In terms of background, I'm very different from Limpeh - in the ways I listed above.
My family was quite poor. I had good grades, but never scholarship material. I'm from the generation that wasn't allowed to go to college or university if you failed your 'Mother Tongue' - hello F9 in Mandarin! So I went to Temasek poly instead. Higher education in another country? Lolololol. ;)
Additionally, my family was really fucked up. To the extent of setting legal precedents in the late 80s. Fun. Result: As a single female, for my entire 20s and early 30s, before I moved to Australia, I lived alone, with zero family support. I paid my own way from the ground up, starting with true entry level jobs. I had some jobs where I slept under a table in the office, on a piece of newspaper. Oh, and that office had fleas.
It took me 10 years to save up enough money to even *try* applying for an Australian visa. I managed to snag a 475 though, and got to Melbourne on it. I have some super close friends in Melbourne, whom I consider to be my real family. They put me up, and supported me and... and were just really - the idealised version of what family is 'supposed' to be for the 6 months it took me to land a job with my current employer. My employer then converted my 475 regional visa to a 457, so that I could work for them in Melbourne. And now, as mentioned above, in October of this year, they'll back my PR application on the employer sponsored route.
So for those of you who didn't start with all the 'advantages'. You don't need them. I'm not saying they don't help. They damn well do. After all - 10 years to save enough to even try for a visa.
But if you really want to 'jailbreak'. If one of the things you've wanted since you were 10 years old or so was to get the Hell out of Singapore - do it. Start saving. Start working towards it. It can be done.
Even should my application fail *omg please no* - the fact that I've gotten this far... is an indication that it can be done.
@Limpeh
You rawk. Thank you for this post. I've shown it around to many people because it is so so so spot on.
Your story really inspires me so much! I also just started my own journey and have a very long way to go. Come from poor family background also. Did average academically. But I did one thing right. Chose the right course to study lol. I'm saving as much as I can now.
Deletehi Geoffrey! glad you found my story inspiring.
DeleteIt even has a happy ending! :D
I got my PR in June 2015, and am on the way to citizenship.
Furthermore, the huge pay difference between my Sg life and my Oz life has allowed me to sponsor my spouse, who was an even poorer peasant than us, from Croatia.
We met over 15 years ago, but nothing was ever possible because we were both dirt poor. But after 4 years in Oz, on Oz pay... I was easily able to save more than enough to make things happen.
I wish you the very best of luck. Peasant power!
@Limpeh
Thank you again for your post. I'm pretty sure it's given many people hope, and a place to share.
Hi limpeh !!!! I have left some questions for you on this page, appreciate if you could reply? I sent the questions a while ago but so Farreply hahaha sorry to rush you and all but I kind of need those answers urgently and you are rthe only one with sufficient experience and expertise to help me
ReplyDeleteFiona, I can't find any traces of the questions you left a while ago - did they get posted at all? You will need to repost them as I can't find them.
DeleteHi LP,
ReplyDeleteWould love to set up a meeting with you locally in London. Partly to 'interview' you for my own work and partly to chat about this as the Medishield Life thing has woken up a lot of sleeping chickens so to say. Could you kindly email me at arnie@7thTribe.co.uk ?
Arnie, you realize I am currently on holiday in Singapore?
DeleteWhat is life like in the uk? I'm considering moving there, is there anti Asian/chinese sentiment there in everyday life work wise and social wise?
ReplyDeleteI'm looking at moving to London or maybe one of the Scottish cities.
Thanks limpeh
Joan thanks for your comment but I am appalled by your question.
Delete1. Life in the UK is pretty awesome, I wouldn't be here otherwise if I was not happy. As a highly skilled professional, I have a long list of countries that I can move to and I have lived and worked in many different countries, but I have chosen to make London my home.
2. I can't fucking believe that you can actually have the audacity to suggest that there could be "anti Asian/Chinese sentiments" here. Good fucking grief. This sounds like the kind of racist crap my parents would have come up with. In assuming that white people are racist, YOU are the one being racist.
Let me state categorically: that if racism was a problem here, then I would be living here. So clearly, no there is no racism here. Singaporeans are the ones who are so fucking racist in always assuming this ridiculous situation of mutual hatred: oh i hate white people therefore white people must hate Chinese people. Just fucking stop it - maybe my father would come up with fucking racist shit like that, but I am appalled that younger people like you are just as disgustingly racist. That's just fucking bullshit.
Chinese people are disgustingly racist towards anyone who have darker skin tones - it's a Chinese thing, your culture fucking sucks when it comes to racism. But thankfully, British people are not as ignorant and racist.
Sorry to have to scold you - but fucking hell , I daresay you deserve a scolding for being this fucking ignorant.
Just for you Joan http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/who-is-your-worst-enemy-take-look-in.html
DeleteHi LIFT,
ReplyDeleteI am a SPR and a PhD degree holder. I have received a contract to work in Belfast for 2.5 years. Do you think it is wise to leave my job in SIN and go?
My concern is that I will lose my SPR and if I want to come back to SIN to work in the future, it maybe difficult to get SPR again. The other concern is my parents in MYS. Also, the last concern is of getting a new job in UK before my contract ends in Belfast.
It is a tough decision and I hope to get some advice from you who had went through similar stuffs like this.
Would be good if we can talk in private (eg: email etc).
Please advise and help. Thank you.
Hi Nicholas, there's a very good reason why I never enter into private correspondence with my readers. Your case isn't unique and if we discuss it here, then our discussion could help many others who are facing the same challenges. But if we do this privately, then it will benefit only you (that's kinda selfish, don't you think?) - besides, when we discuss it here in the open, many more of my other readers may join in and offer good ideas that even I haven't thought of, another good reason to talk about it openly. It's not like you've done anything wrong and have something to hide, so why are you keen to talk in private then?
DeleteAsfor your SPR, you need to renew it every 5 years, you don't need to report to the Singaporean authorities everyday to prove to them that you're still living in Singapore, working in Singapore etc. It is not North Korea. As long as you can prove that you are still living/working in Singapore when your PR is up for renewal at the 5 year mark, that's good enough to satisfy the authorities. I don't know if that would coincide with the time you would be in Belfast - but say you got your PR 4 years ago and you leave for Belfast tomorrow. Your renewal would be due when you are in Belfast, that could create complications and lead to you losing your PR. However, say you got your PR granted yesterday and you leave for Belfast tomorrow, you could potentially leave and return long before your PR is due for renewal. That's the nitty gritty of the renewal business.
If you are clearly skilled enough to get that job offer in Belfast, that you can easily apply for other jobs in the UK whilst you're here and they don't give out work permits willy nilly to just about anyone - it shouldn't be a problem for you to get another job to continue working in the UK at the end of that contract or extend the contract at that company in Belfast. But that's not the key issue here - the key issue is where you see your future: Singapore or the UK? Which country would make you happier? It's not like you can take your parents with you to either country, so you need to think ultimately about what your priorities are. Reply and we'll talk about it here.
Hi LIFT,
DeleteThank you for the reply. I see your point here and I am fine with discussing my issues here.
I have left SIN to further studies earlier and still managed to retain my SPR and got lucky in renewal before the expiry date earlier this year. However, I only managed to renew a year and just working for 1.5 months. So if I were to leave SIN now, I am certain that I can bid goodbye to SPR as the Belfast contract is until end of 2018.
Just wondering, let's say after my Belfast contract under Tier 2 visa, I manage to get another job with another employer in UK. Does my time spent under Belfast contract now roll-over towards the 5 years minimum stay in UK to before I can apply for a UK-PR?
Well, I had stayed in a Caucasian country before and life was good, relaxing and less stressful. In the long run, a UK citizenship is attractive but my only worry at the moment is job security. I will be doing my post-doctoral training in Belfast and to be honest the life span for this whole post-doctoral thing is short unless you go as independent researcher (which is damn hard) or you move into the industry. I am just not too sure if I should take this gamble given what I have at the moment. I apologize that I may sound like a wuss but at the moment it is abit difficult for me to decide =(
Hi Nicholas,
Delete1. Thanks for agreeing to discuss things openly here.
2. You will have to fundamentally make a choice about whether you see your future in Singapore or the UK (or another country). Don't 'settle' for Singapore if you really desire to be elsewhere. Choose Singapore if it is your first choice. I don't know you well enough to tell you what you ought to do - but perhaps you can tell me what your first choice is (and then pursue it please).
2. Yes, any time you spend working in Belfast will count towards that magic figure of 5 years (the threshold upon which you can obtain UK PR, or ILR as we call it here).
3. Mate, there's no job security anywhere in the world. Nothing is for certain in any country, please let me make an important point: your job security ultimately on how skilled you are, how much in demand you will be for your talents, how awesomely talented you are. That will determine how secure your job situation is: there are unemployed, poor people in any rich country in the world - they are in that situation because they don't have the right skills/education/training/talent to get a job, what the hell does the country's GNP/GDP got to do with anything? All I can say is that despite the fact that you're obviously smart enough to qualify as a highly skilled migrant in the UK, I am appalled that you are looking at this whole issue of job security from the most ludicrous, nonsensical angle. It's all about YOU, YOU and YOU - it's about Nicholas Lau. Get it?
hi limpeh, I'm currently deciding between singapore and british citizenship as i have both and am striving to be an honest human being and don't want to cheat the government by ticking in the box which says i don't have a foreign passport. i served my two yrs NS and as everyone else i found it mostly extremely boring zzzzzz. my mother is british living in uk, father is Singaporean living in SG. I'm leaning towards the british as i spent most of my formative yrs there, 8-18. To be honest if Singapore had let me train in my sport of choice, Gymnastics, whilst i did NS, as i competed in the SEA games for them, then i would have more heart to choose Singaporean over British. BUT as a result i gave up Gymnastics, my life dream was to one day compete in the Olympics. pls could u give ur opinion on my situation, thank you very much for this article btw.
ReplyDeleteDear FS, surely having spent time in Singapore serving NS, you should have already had a chance to see what life in Singapore is like - ie. what the culture is like, what it is like living and working with Singaporeans, what life is like for you over there. What were the things you liked about living in Singapore, what were the things you disliked etc. But then having spent 10 years in the UK, you could compile a similar list for the UK.
DeleteYou then put the two lists next to each other and compare the two: therein lies your answer. I can't tell you how to choose because everyone has a different set of criteria, different things that will bring them fulfillment, happiness and inner peace. I know what is right for me, but I can't impose my choices on anyone else without first know them very, very well. Thus because I barely know you, it is meaningless for me to try to advice you on this and all I can tell you to do is to listen to yourself. Your thoughts are probably a big messy tangled jumbled random stream of consciousness at the moment - that's why I propose writing them down on a list (or use an excel spreadsheet or whatever works for you) and then compare the two countries in a very systematic manner. Do not listen to others who will sway you on one or two issues. For example, whom are you closer to in terms of your parents and whom would you rather keep 8 time zones away?
My mother just said something incredibly stupid to me today on Skype and it just made me think, okay, that's why I live 8 time zones away from you and why I don't mind not seeing much of you because I'm spared of your stupid crap when I am 8 time zones away. I'm off to Berlin for work later today but will blog more about it later.
I came across your blog today and this made me even more motivated to migrate out of Singapore, may I know what would be your advice for me between moving to the UK and moving to the US?
ReplyDeleteWithout knowing anything about you, there's just no way I can give you any kind of meaningful advice - I have no idea if you have a degree, what your academic background is, what kind of career you would like to have, I know absolutely NOTHING about you. How the hell am I supposed to advice you on that basis? Unless you're willing to tell me a bit more about yourself, we can't have this conversation.
DeleteGreat blog!
ReplyDeletei am Amransan left singapore in 2010 and even sold my HDB flat 1 week before we left so that there no safety net to come back!
2014 i took up Australia citisenship and gave up my singapore citisenship 3 months later without a blink!
i made sure my baby was born in Australia.
now 2020 for the past 10 years everyday is a blessing everyday i wake up smiling :)
cheers!
Hi LIFT,
ReplyDeleteMy friend claimed that for guys who give up SG citizenship, they can never get SG PR
Do you know of any male ex-SG citizens who got PR later?
Hi there, you've stumbled upon a post from 2013 but thankfully Blogger still informs me that you've left a comment here. Now what your friend has said is weird to say the least and I'll try to analyze it because it makes no sense at all.
DeleteLet's begin with how you feel towards Singapore. If you love life in Singapore and want to have a future in Singapore, then you would hold on to your citizenship and live in Singapore as a citizen. But if you hate life in Singapore and want to leave Singapore, then you would go live/work abroad for many years and then eventually naturalize as a citizen there, so you effectively cut off all ties with Singapore when you eventually emigrate to that other country. Those are the two most logical paths. But what you're proposing is completely illogical.
Let's start with the immigrants from places like India, China and the Philippines who are desperate to move to Singapore and gain PR status in Singapore - they do it because Singapore is a much better place to live, work and bring up their children than the countries where they come from. So they do LOVE Singapore (and probably have good reasons for doing so) - but what you're suggesting is that a Singaporean guy gives up his SG Citizenship (presumably because he hates Singapore), moves abroad, naturalizes as a citizen of another country (a process that can take 5 to 10 years depending on the laws of the country) and then decides to have a change of heart and want to come back to Singapore after having spent 5 to 10 years in another country? That is highly implausible and illogical for a simple reason: if you liked Singapore so much, then why did you leave in the first place? And even if you left to go work in another country like the UK, you don't need to naturalize as a British citizen - there are many Singaporean expatriates who live & work in the UK whilst still holding on to their Singaporean passports & citizenship so as to allow them to return to Singapore at any time they wish.
OK because of the word limit on comments, part 2 is coming up below. Hang on.
Part 2: Giving up your Singaporean passport is a big decision - I think you neglect the fact that it is really, really, really DIFFICULT to gain citizenship in another country. They don't give those out like candy at the airport once you arrive in the new country. In the UK for example, you have to work here for 5 years, then you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (ie. the equivalent of PR status) and then after having had PR status for 2 years, then you can start the process of applying for citizenship during which, you're obliged to give up your Singaporean citizenship by renouncing it as Singapore does not allow dual-nationality. It's a lengthy, difficult process that involves a lot of bureaucracy and red tape, like you've grossly underestimated the amount of red tape involved. Oh and the UK is still one of the easier countries to emigrate to - it's even harder to get an American passport these days and it takes even longer to naturalize as an American citizen. But let's stick to the UK as an example, so the minimum time for most people would be 7 years to naturalize as a British citizen - many Singaporean expatriates in the UK stop just short of that, they gain their PR status in the UK whilst holding on to their Singapore passports so they can freely access both countries, both back and forth between the two as often as they like and that seems to be a compromise that suits them really well. Whereas you need to really fucking hate Singapore to wanna have to burn that bridge to say, "I'm NEVER going to live in Singapore again so I don't want a Singaporean passport. I don't even want my kids to be entitled to Singaporean citizenship so I'm making sure I'm burning that bridge for good." Yeah people who burn that bridge clearly hate Singapore because remember, you don't need to burn that bridge - many Singaporean expatriates in the UK have kept that bridge open by opting to be Singaporean expats in the UK with PR status in the UK.
DeleteSo let's be clear: this is an option one would take if you only really fucking hate Singapore so much you would want to burn that bridge for good. And yes I'm one of those people who took that option because I have many good reasons to never ever want to live in Singapore ever again. However, I find it puzzling for someone to go through this process which you have raised in your hypothesis:
Step 1: This person leaves Singapore for another country to work.
Step 2: After 5 to 10 years, this person gains citizenship in the other country and then decides that he fucking HATES Singapore so much that he burns that bridge by renouncing their citizenship.
Step 3: This person then has a change of heart and then returns to Singapore, changes his mind about Singapore - he wants to now live/work in Singapore, he now wants to obtain PR status in Singapore.
Step 3 just does not make sense. Not at all. Why would someone change their minds just like that? If this person is from Singapore, he would have already had enough information to decide if he loves or hate Singapore. It is extremely unlikely that he would go through step 2 whereby he decided he fucking hates Singapore so much that he burns that bridge and then realizes, oh no I've made a terrible mistake, I wanna return to Singapore as Singapore is the best country in the world. No way - if that love for Singapore is there, then this person would simply do that the thousands of Singaporean expats in the UK do: gain PR status in the UK but keep their Singaporean passports so they have the best of both worlds and can easily move back & forth between both countries - that's a lot more logical. Part 3 coming up below.
And now part 3: if this is a cynical ploy to try to gain better work conditions in Singapore as an expat than a local (no more NS liabilities for example), there's another major flaw in this - to obtain a British passport, you need to have worked in the UK for 7 years during which time, you would have gained valuable work experience, built up a good network of contacts in the UK and more to the point, you would have missed out on at least 7 years of work experience and networking in Singapore. You are at a major disadvantage thus because you're effectively an outsider, trying to break back into the Singaporean market and you're competing with locals with far better local contacts and they would have had much better work experience in the local context that would be far more useful to an employer than someone who has just spent the last 7 years abroad. This is a major opportunity cost involved in spending that much time away from Singapore if your ultimate aim is to establish a successful career in Singapore. Again, if you do love Singapore so much, then you wouldn't want to spend that much time living abroad - let's be logical here. If you do want better work conditions, a better package from your employer, then there's a much easier way to do that then to try to go through all that trouble to gain citizenship elsewhere, renounce your Singaporean passport and then return as an expatriate. No, it's far, far easier to simply become so bloody good at what you do that your employers will treat you like a VIP.
DeletePart 4 coming up below.
And finally part 4! Another reason why your friends may have postulated this is because they may be asking, "what if I move to the UK or Canada and things don't work out there, would I be able to return to Singapore?" Let's stick to the UK for the sake of the argument - let's say you get a work permit for a job that you work at for 7 years to finally be eligible to apply for British citizenship (time spent here as a student does NOT count towards the 7 years), surely - let me state the obvious fact here: 7 years is a bloody long time. I'm not saying that the streets of London are paved with gold, no they're not. Not every Singaporean who shows up in London becomes mega rich and successful - but within that 7 years, you would have had ample time to realize if you're going to make it here or if you're better off returning back to Singapore. Heck, within my first year of living in London, I already realized that I was going to be far better off in London than in Singapore. It is highly implausible for someone to wait 7 years to make that decision and then make such a fundamental error in that decision making process - it's a simple yes or no question. Do you love Singapore? Are you going to be better off back in Singapore or not for your future? And if you can't figure that out after living 7 years in the UK, then the problem lies with you, not the country you live in.
DeleteNow I'm going to talk about personal responsibility. If you're smart, well-educated, resourceful, insightful, intelligent, you have good social skills and are prepared to work hard, then you will succeed and be rich no matter which country you live in. If you're stupid, lazy, unmotivated, unskilled, uneducated and essentially a useless bum, then no matter where you go, whether you're in Singapore, Australia, China, America, Malaysia or the UK, you're going to fail. So I don't buy into this "if things don't work out in the West, I wanna be able to return to Singapore" argument because this is the person blaming the country for his failure rather than accepting personal responsibility for it. It's a moot point in any case: if you're such a failure, then you're unlikely to qualify for a work permit in the West anyway. Guess what? You think the West gives out work permits for useless bums? No, they only want the most highly educated, highly skilled professionals who can contribute to their societies. So if you're a useless bum in Singapore, you're probably never going to live in the West and then get to blame that country for your failures. You're gonna be stuck in Singapore until you realize you're too old to even qualify for some of these work permits. Oh I have seen that happen to some of the people from my JC who are miserable in Singapore and desperately want to move abroad, but because of their lack of relevant work experience they can never ever obtain that work permit which would allow them to do so and hence they're stuck in Singapore still in their mid-40s and now they realize they are never ever gonna get out of Singapore. Oh it's a LOT harder to move to the West than you think. This is what a lot of people don't realize - focus on making yourself so incredibly good at your career than you will be successful no matter where in the world you go. You need to take personal responsibility for being super successful rather than blame the country you live in.