EV 24 May 2013 14:16
In my university, we do have a choice in our internships as we have to source for and apply for the internships by ourselves (this is because my university's career services offices simply do not have the resources to find internships for every student). I know that at least 1 other university in Singapore is slightly different in that they do not give their students a choice in choosing which company to intern in.
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| Do students realize the terms & conditions of what they have signed up to? |
However, the risk of not being able to graduate on time and the heavy competition from fellow students from all universities for internships has made it very tempting for many students to accept lousy internships (ones that don't teach the students anything and are basically ways for the companies to get free labour) or the first offer that comes by. Some students basically just want to finish the internship fast and get it recorded in order to graduate on time. This is especially so if the students in question have a poor academic record so they already know that their chances of securing an internship is low. (Note: I'm referring only to lousy internships, not physically/psychologically abusive internships as I don't know anyone who has experienced that.)
I don't know if this is the situation in SIM, but if it is, I can certainly understand why the intern in question accepted the internship and went on with it. Though it is beyond my comprehension why he went on working with that company even after the internship.
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| Why did this guy put up with getting constantly beaten up? |
Hi Limpeh,
I just want to say that I fully agree that SIM is to be blamed for the situation. An intern basically is a student whose grades are at stake and has very little power vs his employer. It is the duty of the school to protect his rights to not just a bully-free place but a good internship as they sent him there. Pay is a separate matter as it is usually within the prescribed range i.e. very low minimum. That fear of getting a poor grade is enough to hold a lot of kiasu Singaporeans people back.
During my U internship days I was sent to a very small manufacturing company. Times were hard and places were hard to find, we understood the school had a hard time. This place was like a few army training sheds with no walls and had 20 unskilled foreign workers doing carpentry stuff like nailing and sawing and varnishing. But then they hired 20 tertiary students on internships to supplement. We basically did the same things as those Indian and Bangladeshi workers. I led a rebellion to AWOL off to complain up to our dean as our school supervisor was not helpful. Some of classmates preferred to stay out of trouble and just bear the 8 weeks. It was very disappointing less than half were backing my action to complain to dean. Eventually the dean sent another supervisor to check who then reported that there was "insufficient engineering" content in our internships there. It turns out later that the owner was a good personal friend of our supervisor. I won't be surprised if Alan has a few friends in SIM.
Livvy Teng 24 May 2013 16:41
Hi Limpeh!
Here to post my 2 cents worth on local internships.I went through internships in my time in a local polytechnic.The internship experience for me and my peers were mixed, depending on the company assigned. My school has a record for assigning students to small/weird/unrelated jobs or companies. Some were basically treated like cheap labour and while others (like myself) were fortunate enough to gain useful experience in a position related to our studies. Students, like my boyfriend, who did not want to run the risk of being assigned a shitty company were also allowed to source for their own internships.
During my U internship days I was sent to a very small manufacturing company. Times were hard and places were hard to find, we understood the school had a hard time. This place was like a few army training sheds with no walls and had 20 unskilled foreign workers doing carpentry stuff like nailing and sawing and varnishing. But then they hired 20 tertiary students on internships to supplement. We basically did the same things as those Indian and Bangladeshi workers. I led a rebellion to AWOL off to complain up to our dean as our school supervisor was not helpful. Some of classmates preferred to stay out of trouble and just bear the 8 weeks. It was very disappointing less than half were backing my action to complain to dean. Eventually the dean sent another supervisor to check who then reported that there was "insufficient engineering" content in our internships there. It turns out later that the owner was a good personal friend of our supervisor. I won't be surprised if Alan has a few friends in SIM.
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| Do companies know what to do with interns? |
Hi Limpeh!
Here to post my 2 cents worth on local internships.I went through internships in my time in a local polytechnic.The internship experience for me and my peers were mixed, depending on the company assigned. My school has a record for assigning students to small/weird/unrelated jobs or companies. Some were basically treated like cheap labour and while others (like myself) were fortunate enough to gain useful experience in a position related to our studies. Students, like my boyfriend, who did not want to run the risk of being assigned a shitty company were also allowed to source for their own internships.
I got my preferred internship position by making multiple requests to the relevant lecturers and internship co-ordinators. I felt many of my classmates then did not take the initiative and have a rather apathetic attitude for internships. Even with the knowledge that the school could potentially send them to a f-uped company internship. They then start complaining about under utilization of their skills/unrelated jobscope etc days into the job when they could have had the chance to improve their internship experience.
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| How hard was it for you to find your internship? |
Personally I feel internship experiences are valuable, and do not want to leave it up to a co-ordinator who does not understand my strengths, weaknesses and interests. It is also up to the individual to find and fight for what he/she wants in an internship; nobody is going to spoon feed you forever lol. Yes, the school could have done better sourcing for companies. But ultimately I feel the individual has to fight for his/her opportunity as well. If you don't ask, you don't get.
Yoda 25 May 2013 04:27
Yes, back in my time when I was doing my poly internship, some dude got posted to a small watch shop in a small shopping centre, working 6 days a week (typical retail hours) 8-9 hours each day for $400 a month. Some other friends got posted to do call centre work for the same $400 a month, working 6 day work weeks and 8-9 hour shifts without OT pay.
That is pure and open exploitation when it is a job you don't even need a poly diploma to do, and I am sure the interns could easily get the same job outside part-time paying much more... To answer some of your questions:
Q: Do you get any say to which company you are posted to?
A: In short, pretty much, no, and this is pretty much how it works at polytechnic and university level (unless Papa/mama are well connected and can get you into one of those big companies - I say this with no tinge of jealousy or envy as I refer to myself having previously been in that privileged position once). It is drilled into you how "lucky" you are to have a company willing to take you in to teach (exploit) you when you are pretty much "useless, fresh, don't know anything" etc - the things they will say about your (in)ability just to exploit young, willing labour! This is pretty much what happens in polytechnic (which I went through) and with a large number of friends in SIM, it is pretty much what happens in SIM as well.
Q: Why the hell would you go to SIM when there is NUS/NTU?
A: This also partly answers the previous question as to internship exploitation, and they are linked; I won't mince my words, but the reputation of SIM is pretty much as a university that people go to when they can't get into the local Us. Again, I am qualified to say this; I would be in SIM if not for papa and mama's money.
Yoda 25 May 2013 04:27
Yes, back in my time when I was doing my poly internship, some dude got posted to a small watch shop in a small shopping centre, working 6 days a week (typical retail hours) 8-9 hours each day for $400 a month. Some other friends got posted to do call centre work for the same $400 a month, working 6 day work weeks and 8-9 hour shifts without OT pay.
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| Would working in retail count as a proper internship? |
That is pure and open exploitation when it is a job you don't even need a poly diploma to do, and I am sure the interns could easily get the same job outside part-time paying much more... To answer some of your questions:
Q: Do you get any say to which company you are posted to?
A: In short, pretty much, no, and this is pretty much how it works at polytechnic and university level (unless Papa/mama are well connected and can get you into one of those big companies - I say this with no tinge of jealousy or envy as I refer to myself having previously been in that privileged position once). It is drilled into you how "lucky" you are to have a company willing to take you in to teach (exploit) you when you are pretty much "useless, fresh, don't know anything" etc - the things they will say about your (in)ability just to exploit young, willing labour! This is pretty much what happens in polytechnic (which I went through) and with a large number of friends in SIM, it is pretty much what happens in SIM as well.
Q: Why the hell would you go to SIM when there is NUS/NTU?
A: This also partly answers the previous question as to internship exploitation, and they are linked; I won't mince my words, but the reputation of SIM is pretty much as a university that people go to when they can't get into the local Us. Again, I am qualified to say this; I would be in SIM if not for papa and mama's money.
I hope this gives you an insight into the shit students face in the education system; this might actually be the wake-up call Singapore needs to start regulating all this intern shit. Australia recently passed laws in Victoria prohibiting unpaid internships, and they have a real union that protects the exploited, but then again, we all know Singapore gahmen is pro-business and doesn't really give a shit about peasant interns (all the minister's children obviously get nice, comfy internships at big firms)
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| A good internship can lead to your ideal job. |
Angsy 28 May 2013 18:47
With regards to the SIM internship system, critics are quick to point out its flaws. Some of the criticisms are valid, but few people actually know that the internship system is probably less than 2 years old- it was developed from scratch, and there is much to be improved on. Personally, I sourced for my own internships, so I had no complaints whatsoever.
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So there you go, those are the insights offered by my readers. I think we all agree that internships can be very valuable in helping a young student prove that s/he has some practical work experience and it can potentially be a great learning experience. However, if the students are badly treated and exploited - then the university/polytechnic has a lot to answer for the these fee-paying students have the right to expect to be treated fairly during their internships. I hope these stories will help other students think long and hard about what kind of internships they are looking for - it seems the best ones are those personally sourced, why leave such things to chance? Better be safe than sorry, don't you think?
I guess I'm really fortunate that I get to study in a US institution that gave me the opportunity to intern for the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London. My supervisor has been nothing short of brilliant and made sure that any task that he gave me would be a valuable experience for me and so far I have not experienced the so-called exploitative internship that I've heard so much about.
ReplyDeletePhew!
I was very lucky to land an internship at a local advertising agency which led me to work 3 years there after NS as well. Yup, I gave up university studies for work work experience and it paid off. I was 25 when I got headhunted for my upcoming gig in Seoul. Internships are key, so don't mess around and get a good one.
ReplyDeleteHi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteMy friend just recommended me to visit your blog yesterday. Just from spending one day of reading through some of your old post, I had learn plenty from your viewpoint and experiences. So I would like to share my experience here in regards to internship at SIM. I am a fresh graduate from SIM UOL. I cannot speak for others as I am the very few people among my friends who bothered to look for an internship; from my experience, it is extremely tough to score an internship if you are from SIM UOL. One reason would be that internship is not mandatory for us, another reason would be, almost every firm would definitely prefer NTU, SMU and NUS students.
I had sent out 200+ CV+Cover letter since year 1 till date, seeking for an internship. My response rate? Not even a single firm wanted to give me an interview and only less than 10 bothered to even my application or enquiry. While it may sound like I am exaggerating, but this is the truth. Of course, sensing that I must be doing something wrong, I went around seeking for help to improve CV. I got my SMU friend's resume writing class notes, scour through the net, went to kino and browse through all the books with regards to job hunting. I also ask my friends to proof-read it endlessly, and once a HR lady from UOB who was nice enough to spend 30 mins helping me edit my resume. So, when I was in year 1, I thought I was simply not good enough, that's why. Later, I spent my holidays improving myself by reading up on financial literature, teaching myself to build financial models and keeping up with financial news. I had spent most of my money on books and my financial news subscription every month. It doesn't hurt that my results are good from my year 1.
I decided to try again in year 2 with greater confidence. Nope, once again.. No response at all. I sent out about 100+ CV+Cover letter in each year. Almost every cover letters I sent out, I made the effort to tailor it specially for different firms, likewise for my CV. I tried not to let these bring me down, and I never gave up trying even in year 3. During my year 2 holidays, I poured whatever little savings I had to take CFA level 1, and it really drained me as I was mostly paying my own stuff and study loan. Luckily, I passed my CFA level 1 and was placed really high globally on Bloomberg Assessment test. Once again, my results in year 2 lined with my expectations, while not remotely near cohort topping, I am extremely close to first class honours by year 2. With that, I thought that I fought for a better chance at internship even as I am graduating. And finally in April this year, that chance seemed to have arrived. I applied for an internship position through SIM and was granted an interview with the school first. At one point in the interview, the interviewers asked me, "why don't you have any relevant internship experience???". I was really taken aback! However, throughout the interview, I felt good and the panel of 3 interviewers told me that I was the strongest candidate they had interviewed and asked me to prepare various extra stuff so they can help push me for the internship. Sadly, the firm did not give me an interview opportunity. And later, I was acquainted with the person who got interviewed by the firm and score the internship. Through some connections he managed to land an prior internship during his year 2 holidays and with "relevant internship experience", the firm decided to interview him and gave him the internship position. Wow... I was really sad, especially after I peeked at his resume and see that I definitely did do plenty more and perform better than him, both in academic and my CCA. For my CCA, I was a martial arts club captain in SIM and won medals for the school yearly. Whatever I had done so still, still ain't good enough to help me score even an interview with any firm.
Throughout my time in SIM, every person whom I knew scored an internship, did it through connections either through their families/friends or some secret dark arrangement, and they are mostly from well to do families. Unfortunately, I did not come from a well to do family with good connections. Moreover, this was my own fault for mocking at the notion of studying while I was in poly. I did Business management in NYP, and my GPA was 3.0/4.0 only because of my projects. I had scored either A or distinctions for all of my projects and poly internship, hence, pulling up my lousy exams score. But I was not good enough to make it into a local Uni, which till today is one of my biggest regret. Yes, not studying in poly was a stupid mistake, and nothing I do now can change that. I can only move forward.
ReplyDeleteI had just finished my final exams in May and begun my job hunting for about 1 month now. I tried cold-calling and emailing firms to enquire open position. Additionally, I started door knocking jobs and sending enquiries out by snail mail to firms I only had address. Still without response, I recently built some financial models and wrote equity report, to bundle together with my CV+Cover letter. So far, I still have no interview lined up. But I am not giving up and made sure I learn something new everyday to improve myself. I never had problem with interviews so far and I am confident with my skills and abilities. I am also prepared to answer most technical questions or even financial history questions. All I need is an interview from those firms I had applied to. I thought what I did so far were enough... until I read your blog and found inspiration. Thank you Limpeh. I was feeling really down the past week, but I have now snapped out of it. I just gotten myself a part time serving job to earn some extra dough, decided to continue with my intermediate level Japanese studies and meanwhile find ways to network into the industry. Your blog has been an inspiration to me. Thank you again!
i am studying in an aussie uni (g8) but my grades are not very good, i am thinking of apply intern at local big 4. Is it advisable if i state that i can volunteer unpaid work for them in my resume?
ReplyDeleteI don't think it makes a difference, after all, saying that you'll work for free is just giving them a blank cheque to exploit you, it smacks of desperation. At the end of the day, if you can get an internship at Google or the UN, then sure, do it for free and it'll be worth it for the experience, but otherwise, it really boils down to where you get placed in your internship, how you are treated and how useful that experience will be in terms of serving you in the long run. Good luck.
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