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| Do you blame the teachers or the system? |
Limpeh: Guys thanks for doing this. If I may begin please with the tragic case in Singapore where the 11 year old boy killed himself over his exam results, it is so easy to blame and demonize the parents in this case. But can we talk about the role of the teacher when it comes to cases like that? What do you do when you have a child who's clearly failing? Do you take the parents aside and tell them to accept the fact that their kid is plain stupid?
Amy: Oh. It is a horrific story. We have students who fail of course, you can't expect every child to score straight As - some kids will get mediocre grades whilst some will fail. The problem is that a lot of parents go into denial when their kids fail - they think, okay, it was a freak accident, I'll get the best tuition teacher in Singapore, I'll get rid of his computer games and all other distractions to fix the problem. It is impossible to strike a sensible balance: on one hand, if you take away hope from the parents by telling them that nothing they can say or do will make the slightest difference as their child is just so stupid, then you take hope away from them. Without hope, they stop trying and the child will then condemn himself to failure. We want children to believe in themselves and try their best, we want to encourage them - but any optimism has got to be based on facts. So if a child scores 60 marks in one exam, you can ask the child to try to score 65 marks at the next exam for that subject - that's a realistic target. Set reasonable, achievable goals and celebrate when you do achieve those targets.
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| What do you do if the kids are stupid? |
Limpeh: Amy, so are you suggesting that it is not the teachers at fault - but it is the Singaporean parents who are unreasonable and that as a teacher, there's little you can do when confronted with unreasonable parents?
Amy: Yes. I can only speak for myself. But I've encountered so many unreasonable parents - and that's putting it mildly I feel sorry for the kids you know. We can only do so much in such cases because the parents then take matters into their own hands and plug the child into the whole private tuition circuit - they blame the teachers for being lousy and try to change things with tuition and when that doesn't work, they change tuition teachers but they won't accept that no matter what they do, their kid will still be stupid. No parent wants to accept that their child is plain dumb.
JH: But there are parents who are totally oblivious to how little they are doing to help their own children - they are blind to the fact that they are part of the problem and are often making the situation worse. Parents demonize all kinds of things as 'distractions' that will stop their children studying. Doing sports, having friends, any kind of social life, playing computer games, spending too much time on social media. What they don't realize is that another major distraction is a toxic relationship with their parents - do they honestly believe that children who are arguing with parents all the time are in the right frame of mind to focus on their studies? I've seen very strict Singaporean parents who impose their authority on their children, you know, the kind of "my house, my rules, do as I say" and they end up with such an antagonistic relationship with their teenage children that their children's studies end up badly affected. You know what the worst part is? Such parents are often oblivious to their own faults and blame their children for behaving badly.
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| "No distractions, you must study hard." |
Limpeh: OMFG. You could have been talking about me and my parents, that was me when I was a teenager.
JH: I think it is pretty common for teenagers to have some kind of conflict with their parents - some parents are better than others at conflict resolution, at 'managing' their children. There's a lot of management skills involved, you need such good people skills to be able to handle teenagers. Some teenagers have parents who use such skills at work and thus have a better home environment whilst others are not so lucky.
Amy: Indeed, you can't avoid conflict but you need to know how to resolve them when you encounter them.
Limpeh: What kind of relationship do you have with the parents of your students?
JH: It is formal and distant - to be honest, I have so many students and they each have two parents. Add to that mix grandparents who get involved along with other guardians and family members - how do you honestly expect me to even remember their faces, never mind their names? I struggle to remember the name of the many students sometimes! I'm sorry but we tend to focus on the parents of the kids who are troublemakers or those who are really struggling. The quiet ones who just study hard and don't give us any trouble - we just leave them alone.
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| We are playing the blame game here. |
Amy: JH is right, there are just too many parents to get to know. Some parents and grandparents do get involved in various school activities as volunteers and we appreciate their involvement of course, that's how I get to know some of the parents. But other parents have to work hard to pay the bills, so I can't blame them for not volunteering of course. I'm not blaming them. And unless things go very wrong, we usually don't have much contact at all with the parents.
Limpeh: So do you ever get blamed by the parents when things go wrong?
Amy: Sometimes. It depends. It varies. Some parents are reasonable, others are not. I've had parents threaten me with all kinds of things and some have followed through with complaints. In the past, complaining used to be a threat that they rarely carried through with - but nowadays a complaint is just an email away and we just roll our eyes when we hear about a complaint. It's like when I scolded this brat in my class the other day, the kid was a terror, causing so much trouble and I gave him a proper scolding. Yeah I raised my voice and shouted at him - the idiotic brat went crying to his mother and the mother went to complain, said that the teacher had anger management issues because I raised my voice and shouldn't be working with children. With stupid, shitty parents like that, of course there are going to fuck their kids up royally and when the fucked up kids do stupid shit in class, well, how are we supposed to fix this mess? We're just teachers, the kids are already damaged goods before they even set foot in our class. What can I do?
JH: What Amy said is so true, not all parents are bad but some can be really terrible. It is the same story over and over again - in Singapore, parents work very long hours, like that's just our culture. Child care is left in the hands of grandparents and maids, the quality of the parenting is dubious - you often get loving grandparents who give their grandchildren anything they desire and they bring up the most horribly behaved brats. The parents feel bad about not spending enough time with their kids, so when the kids get into trouble at school, they tend to defend their children because it reflects very badly on them if it is clear that the kid's such a mess because of poor parenting. So rather than concede that they've been shitty parents and lose face, they argue, defend their brats. When they go into that mode, they blame the teaches, the other kids, the other parents, the system, they blame everyone but themselves.
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| "I'm working late again today." |
Amy: The issue for me isn't so much their grades, I teach in a primary school - at that young age, before streaming, I get a mixed ability class. I know I am going to get a random selection of kids of a range of abilities and that's fine, I am prepared to cope with that. It's more behavioural issues that I struggle to deal with, especially when I get the troublemakers. Oh, I even have to deal with this kid with special needs and he's a borderline case - but virtually impossible to teach and so badly behaved in my class. So I have to deal with that kid whilst not neglecting the rest of the class? Mission impossible. What can I do?
Limpeh: If I may ask a cheeky question: I have written recently in my blog that most of the skills I use to make a living are not learnt in school but soft skills that I had picked up along the way. Even my sister recently said to me that she can't remember a thing from her degree and is reliant mostly on her soft skills to do her (rather well paid) job. Do your students ever say to you, "why should I bother learning this? How is this ever going to be useful to me in the real world? This is such a total waste of time." How do you respond to that?
JH: You'll be amazed - very few students actually have that problem with what we throw at them, though yeah once in a while, they react with that when they struggle, when they cannot get their heads around a certain topic. Perhaps it's a very Singaporean thing you know, students just accept that they have to study hard, that's their raison d'etre, their mission which they do accept. They want to do well in the exams and of course, their parents want to do well in the exams. What we're merely proving in the long run is that this individual can learn well, so you can put them in a work place - in an office, in a factory, in a hotel or wherever they work in the future, give them a process, a product, a certain role to play and they will be able to learn whatever they need to do. So the results prove that they can learn - the actual content of the syllabus is far less relevant because our brains simply will not retain all that information after a few years. Few adults can actually remember what they studied in secondary school.
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| Will the students remember any of this in 10 years? |
Amy: Oh please. I can't even remember all the names of the teachers in my secondary school, you want me to remember the actual content of the lessons? No way. That's not what education is about at all. JH is right, it's about learning and you've gotta start somewhere. I do feel frustrated by the limited scope of the primary school education syllabus in Singapore, but as a teacher we make the best of it. I think the MOE has a lot to learn from other European countries like Finland where they have a very different approach to primary education - it's more about learning through discovery rather than memorizing facts for exams. So teachers like us are aware of the problems... the limitations of the system, totally, but what can we do? We're trying to do our job, trying our best to be good teachers within a flawed system.There's only so much we can do within the current framework.
Limpeh: Some bad teachers go on an ego trip when they exaggerate the importance of what they teach - I remember a bad maths teacher from my secondary school days who told me that I would have no future if I didn't do well in maths. Balls to him. How do you react to that anecdote about my maths teacher?
Amy: That's wrong of your maths teacher - he shouldn't have resorted to insulting you personally like that just because you didn't do well in the subject. He is the teacher, the onus was on him to not just make you understand the maths but to get you interested in the subject by making the lessons interesting. If he could do that, then you would see how useful maths could be in some areas of your life. But telling a student that he'll have no future if he can't do maths, no way, you can't say that. That's just bullying talk, even if the kid really sucked at maths, how will scolding a student like that motivate him? It has quite the opposite effect. Your maths teacher has failed in his task and he is blaming you instead - it's fucked up teachers like him who give our profession a bad name. I'd love to give him a piece of my mind.
Limpeh; Well you can't - he's dead.
Limpeh: Yeah, you forget how old I am. (Awkward pause.) Okay, let me share with you an email that my CFO sent me this morning. You're both much better at maths than I am, let's see if you can make sense of this:
Q: An IFA told me with regards to the Bond Funds she uses, " I'm not sure how much interest they pay, because they report on a total return basis. So I have a portfolio that has returned around 14% over the year to 30 September 16, but this is largely due to falling yields pushing the prices up, not due to interest on the bonds." Can you explain how that works - how do falling yields push prices up?
A: The interest on a bond is set i.e. they pay say 4%. The price is what the market sets say 105 or 120 (which moves all the time based on secondary trading) The yield is the price over the interest rate, so 105/4% = 3.8% and 120/4% = 3.3%, so there is an inverse relationship between price and yield. For our bonds, they will be issued at 100, then for the first 6 months (until the first interest payment) or so they will be sold at a “dirty price” e.g. something like 100.75 to account for the interest that will be paid in full at 6 months (which is just a mathematical calculation). After that they will be traded in the secondary market at whatever price the market sets which can be a factor of many things including risk perception, interest payments, liquidity, other market conditions etc. That's why falling yields can push prices up.
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| You don't need to be an expert in maths to work in finance. |
JH: It's not a mathematics question per se, calculating interest rates is something that's so straight forward even a primary four or five kid can do that with ease, but trying to understand the relationship between yield and price in this case involves understanding how the different variables affect each other in this relationship and the way the bonds are traded. Even if I am not stumped by the maths here - which admittedly, is not difficult at all - I still don't understand how it works. You need to explain to me how the bond is traded and why falling yields overall would artificially push the price of the bond up when it changes hands. I can see what is happening mathematically, yeah there is an inverse relationship between price and yield, it boils down to that. I just can't understand or explain that why it is happening. Maths can only get me so far. Perhaps that's why I am a maths teacher rather than an investment banker.
Amy: Well this example shows why your maths teacher was wrong to assume that you've no future if you can't do maths. Even if you can do maths well, it takes more than maths skills to figure out something like that. Maths is but one of many skills you need to do a job like that. To do what you do (ie. the trading of bonds) you need a lot more than just a good command of maths - you need to understand the product, then there's the human aspect to deal with clients.
Limpeh: That's probably why my employers put up with the fact that I am not strong in maths, I may take a while longer to understand and learn the technical aspects of the product, but I compensate that by being very good with our clients. But here's the thing - my boss explained this inverse relationship between price and yield to me, now I get it. That took him 5 minutes to help me understand how it works. Now if someone doesn't have the right soft skills to deal with a difficult client, then that's not something I can resolve in just 5 minutes. Heck, not even in 5 hours or 5 days!
Amy: I think there are good teachers and bad teachers out there - the same way there are good and bad people in every profession. I don't think it is fair for you to be so tough on teachers on your blog Alex, as you're treating just like a monolithic entity. By all means, condemn the bad teachers - I'll join you in condemning them. I know there are plenty of bad teachers out there. But you're not fair to the good ones.
Limpeh: Absolutely, I accept your point totally. If I may move on to another question please, I have been quite critical of teachers trying to give any kind of career advice because I don't think they know anything about any other career apart from teaching. If you want to become an accountant, you need to speak to an accountant. If you want to run a restaurant, then you need to speak to someone who runs a restaurant. If you want to become an airline pilot, then you need to speak to a pilot. If you want to become an actor, then you need to speak to a successful actor. You get the idea - so that's why I am so critical of teachers who try to give career advice. What do you have to say about that?
JH: Oh there's nothing to stop teachers from expressing an opinion or making a suggestion, but I'd like to think that parents know their own children a lot better than the teachers. How many students do you think I see on a daily basis when I go teach? Too many, way too many to form the kind of understanding parents will have of their own children - so let me do my job, which is to teach the student the subject in the classroom but when it comes to career advice, that really should fall to the parents rather than the teacher. If my students ask me questions pertaining to career advice, I usually make some suggestions but most importantly, I will tell them to discuss it with their parents - not because I'm fobbing them off, but their parents will know them far better than I ever will.
Limpeh: But what if, you came across a student like me - my parents were primary school teachers who were not in a position to offer any kind of career advice on any other career apart from teaching. What if you had students whose parents are simply not in a position to help in this department and then they came to you - what then? In that kind of scenario, would you try to help, knowing that they have no one else to turn to?
JH: That's a tough one. It's a can you can kick down the road you know, it's okay as a young person to not quite know what you want to be when you grow up. You don't have to commit to a career choice at the age of 13 or 14 and stick to it - what I tell students is that they need to explore different career paths that they may be interested in and keep their options open. They need to understand their strength and weaknesses and think about what kind of job would make them happy - sorry if this sounds like a vague answer, but keeping your options open seems to be the most sensible advice to give teenagers who don't quite know what to do with their lives yet. But yes, I do think it would be wrong for a teacher to start dishing out career advice about industries that he doesn't know anything about - the only sensible response would be to ask the student to find out more from a qualified expert, rather than pretend to know enough to offer any kind of useful advice. To be frank, giving career advice isn't really my job you know.
Amy: Any decent teacher should not offer advice about a topic that they don't have the expertise on - a child in my class wasn't feeling well and came to me for advice, she told me all her symptoms and you know what I said? I told her that she needs to go see a doctor and I made sure I told her parents that they needed to take their daughter to the doctor's. It's the same thing when it comes to something like career advice really - I can only really talk about teaching with real authority. My sister is an estate agent and if you came to me for advice on becoming an estate agent, then I'd just ask you to speak to my sister directly, rather than start dishing out advice based on what she has told me.
Limpeh: To be fair, I was a rare case. My nephew's mother works in a hospital whilst his father works in banking. So I'm sure my sister and brother-in-law have plenty of useful career advice to offer from their respective fields in healthcare and finance. So at least I know he's going to be okay, I hope.
Amy: There are those who have a very clear vision and they can tell you, "I want to be a doctor, a brain surgeon!" So if you get someone who has that kind of clarity and ambition, then it's a lot easier for you to then help them identify the right path to take to get to exactly where they want to be in 10, 20 years' time. But even with people like that, I still encourage them to keep exploring and discovering as they may find something else they may equally enjoy and find fulfilling. With this current generation of students, I think they're a lot more resourceful than our generation in terms of doing their own research on the internet. That's a good thing, that means they are more capable of figuring this out for themselves and are not reliant on teachers or parents.
JH: If I may speak honestly Alex, you keep going on and on about your parents not knowing anything about the big bad working world beyond the school gates and you keep portraying them as ignorant fools - however, even if they worked in another profession, in another industry, you still shouldn't have expected them to have played a more active role in planning your career path. I always ask my students to proactively plan their own career paths, do their own research and figure out what they want to do with their lives rather than allow their parents to push them in a certain direction. The fact that your parents left you on your own to make up your own mind on what career to pursue is a good thing - there are too many stories of Asian parents who force their kids down a path they hate and okay, of course it would have been nice to have had some help from your parents when figuring out something like this but I just want you to realize that things could have been much, much worse. All they did was give you bad advice, they didn't force you to do anything you didn't want to. It could have been so much worse, you know.
Limpeh: I recognize that but when it comes to talking about bad Asian parenting, I fear we are in a race to the bottom - when you go down that kind of reasoning, when you justify bad parenting with the "it could've been a lot worse" clause, then we start making all kinds of excuses to accept bad Asian parenting because there's always a worse Asian parent out there who have fucked up their kids more.
Amy: Alex is right on that one. I agree. We should always make comparisons with those who are better and aspire to do better, rather than justify the status quo by comparing it to those who have done a lot worse. The bottom line is this: do you wanna justify the way things are or do you want things to improve? What is your mindset?
JH: You should see some of the parents I have had to deal with over the years. Believe you me, your parents are not bad compared to them. But I accept your point about what we are comparing it to - perhaps in our minds, we have a set of values, a set of ideals that would make the perfect parent, it is what we would fill the textbook of Parenting 101 with on the chapter of career advice. However, if all you do is compare your parents to this set of ideals you have in your head, this set of ideals that constitute perfection, then I fear you're just going to set yourself up for one disappointment after another. That kind of comparison will only leave you very miserable I'm afraid. I'm going to politely beg to differ Alex, no offence, please. Now I've seen my friends who have good relationship with their parents and the most successful ones amongst them have made the best decisions because their parents have let them figure out what they want to do on their own - that's really the only way to make this kind of decision.
Limpeh: Returning to the issue of Singaporean kids suffering as a result of unrealistic expectations from their parents. What can teachers to to improve the situation in Singapore for them?
Amy: We are not the problem, don't blame the teachers. There are a lot of fucked up no good parents out there. You need to pass a difficult driving test before they let you have a license to drive a car, but any two idiots can fuck and make a baby tomorrow and then become the worst parents in Singapore. It drives me nuts.
JH: I think it is the lack of a plan B. Most parents want to see their kids go through the usual route and end up with a degree - they don't seem to have any concept of a plan B, a non-academic option for those who don't like studying for exams to acquire a skill, to learn a trade so that they can make a living as a skilled professional without a degree. It's not like such options don't exist in Singapore, there's ITE which has been around for ages, providing quality vocational training and credit to them, they are really good. However, most Singaporean parents would rather die of shame than to let their children go to ITE so they bludgeon them through the system and end up getting a degree not worth the paper it is printed on from some third-rate private university. So they can claim, "my child is a graduate - he went to university!" but they have actually fucked their child up royally because they have wasted so much time and money on a useless degree when really, that child would have been better off going to somewhere like ITE.
Amy: Totally. And after you get your training at ITE, you can always still get a degree at a later stage if that's what you want, but at least acquire some useful skills and training that will lead to gainful employment. I'm afraid as teachers, we can talk about plan B and different options all we want but are often ignored by parents if that's not what they wanna hear. We're not the problem here, but we're not even allowed to be part of the solution - the parents are the problem.
JH: Indeed. I don't think there's anything we can do to improve the situation as teaches, sorry. I'm not sure the government can even do that much - we're talking about a paradigm shift on such a scale that it can only take place over a few decades...
Amy: (Jumping in) A generation.
JH: Exactly. I do have a question for you though Alex. Why do you look down on teachers so much?
Limpeh: Woah. Talk about putting me on the spot guys. Come on.
Amy: You have indeed gone out of your way to put down primary school teachers on your blog. I get the feeling it's mostly because your parents were primary school teachers. Perhaps you get the impression that we're so stupid we can't handle anything more than a PSLE syllabus and you feel so mighty and superior in comparison to us mere teachers. That's why people get the impression that you're arrogant. You write well but you offend so many people.
Limpeh: Okay, I am probably very harsh on primary school teachers because of the impression that my parents have given me - mostly because they seem to be blissfully unaware of many things that go on in the working world, nasty things that people do to get ahead, office politics, lying, cheating, bullying stabbing your colleagues in the back. My parents are extremely naive and ignorant in that genuinely believe that society is very... orderly. That people genuinely are honest, follow the rules, follow the law and those who are dishonest, break the rules or cheat are punished for doing so. This is what they have to teach their students because they have to establish their authority over the children in the classroom - I'm the teacher, you're the student, you're in the classroom, I'm in the charge, you must follow the school rules and do as you're told. Working in a primary school for their entire working lives has sheltered them from the worst of society and perhaps, that's a blessing of sorts.
However, that has meant that they simply cannot understand any of my challenges in the working work - why are people so evil? Why are people so dishonest? Why are people so horrible? Why aren't the people who are so unkind still rewarded despite their bad behaviour? I am shocked at how naive they can be at times, to the point where I worry that they will fall prey to some conman who will cheat them out of their life savings as they are so gullible and childish. I cannot help but notice a correlation between my parents' profession and their naive, ignorant, gullible nature. Having said that, yes the sample size for my opinion is pitifully small - just two. I remember having been very frustrated with my parents' ignorance for so many years, they simply have no clue what the hell I am doing with my life as they cannot understand anything I do despite my efforts to explain. So it is not a case of "my mother could have worked for NASA and been a space engineer but she chose to become a primary school teacher". Becoming a primary school teacher was the right choice for her as she can't handle anything more intellectually challenging than the PSLE syllabus.
I accept that many primary school teachers these days are graduates with quite respectable degrees and they had a range of career options - but they chose to go into teaching. It is not an easy path to take - I think some people are naturally good at teaching whilst others are not. Just because you're good at a subject doesn't mean you'll know how to teach it well - I've had quite a few teachers over the years who were clearly experts in their fields but sucked at explaining concepts to the class. So it is not just a question of having mastery over the syllabus but being able to communicate the lesson effectively to all kinds of students - there's an art to teaching and some teachers are naturally good at it. If you were to ask me to state the teachers who impressed me, whom I liked a lot, sure I can name quite a few and I am very grateful to them for what they have done for me. But I'm afraid they were the exception and most teachers I met were more like my parents - hence I suppose it is my poor personal experiences which have clouded my judgement. Is this fair? Of course it isn't and I recognize that I haven't been fair to primary teachers on my blog.
Thinking back to my days at VJC, none of us wanted to become teachers. I think at least two of my peers did end up in teaching, but it was seen as a last resort - like, oh well, if you can't get a decent job, there's always teaching as a last resort. The same sentiment was echoed amongst my peers at UCL, teaching was seen at best as a last resort, at worst as a sad loser's option (see Youtube video above). Well, we didn't think we studied that had, to get that far, into a top university just to end up back in a primary or secondary school dealing with kids. No, we wanted to go work for a big bank or a famous law firm. Some of us wanted to start our own business, invent a cure for cancer or even become a famous actor. Being surrounded by brilliant people at university was an inspiring experience, we wanted to go on working with other people who were even more intelligent, even more awesome than ourselves so we can learn from them. But if you get put in a primary school, then how are you going to find anyone more brilliant than you in a class full of kids? I suppose that may appeal to someone like my mother, but I am not intimidated by smarter people - I want to work for them and learn from them. I have worked for so many brilliant people over the years.
Even my own parents didn't want me to become a teacher despite them having been teachers themselves - I guess it was the perception that they didn't bludgeon me through the rigorous education system, for me to get three scholarships only to then settle for teaching. Indeed, even they condoned the opinion that teaching should really be a last resort for me, that I should pursue a different career path since I had gone to university and was clearly quite intelligent. Neither of my older sisters went into teaching so it was never really on the cards for me either. I guess there was a part of me that really didn't want to end up like my parents - I wanted something very different for me in life. I'm not trying to use this to justify looking down on teachers - I'm just explaining the kind of attitude and mindset I grew up with when it came to this topic. I'm really sorry if I have offended any teachers out there by what I have said on my blog. But I accept that you're right, it is wrong to treat teachers as a monolithic entity and I've done just that.
Amy: Okay. Apology accepted.
JH: All I can say is please do not assume that all teachers are like your parents. We're not a monolithic entity.
Limpeh: And on that note, I shall end this interview. Many thanks guys for your honesty JH and Amy. Cheers.
Limpeh: That's probably why my employers put up with the fact that I am not strong in maths, I may take a while longer to understand and learn the technical aspects of the product, but I compensate that by being very good with our clients. But here's the thing - my boss explained this inverse relationship between price and yield to me, now I get it. That took him 5 minutes to help me understand how it works. Now if someone doesn't have the right soft skills to deal with a difficult client, then that's not something I can resolve in just 5 minutes. Heck, not even in 5 hours or 5 days!
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| Are the right soft skills taught in school? |
Amy: I think there are good teachers and bad teachers out there - the same way there are good and bad people in every profession. I don't think it is fair for you to be so tough on teachers on your blog Alex, as you're treating just like a monolithic entity. By all means, condemn the bad teachers - I'll join you in condemning them. I know there are plenty of bad teachers out there. But you're not fair to the good ones.
Limpeh: Absolutely, I accept your point totally. If I may move on to another question please, I have been quite critical of teachers trying to give any kind of career advice because I don't think they know anything about any other career apart from teaching. If you want to become an accountant, you need to speak to an accountant. If you want to run a restaurant, then you need to speak to someone who runs a restaurant. If you want to become an airline pilot, then you need to speak to a pilot. If you want to become an actor, then you need to speak to a successful actor. You get the idea - so that's why I am so critical of teachers who try to give career advice. What do you have to say about that?
JH: Oh there's nothing to stop teachers from expressing an opinion or making a suggestion, but I'd like to think that parents know their own children a lot better than the teachers. How many students do you think I see on a daily basis when I go teach? Too many, way too many to form the kind of understanding parents will have of their own children - so let me do my job, which is to teach the student the subject in the classroom but when it comes to career advice, that really should fall to the parents rather than the teacher. If my students ask me questions pertaining to career advice, I usually make some suggestions but most importantly, I will tell them to discuss it with their parents - not because I'm fobbing them off, but their parents will know them far better than I ever will.
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| Are parents or teachers in a better position to give career advice? |
Limpeh: But what if, you came across a student like me - my parents were primary school teachers who were not in a position to offer any kind of career advice on any other career apart from teaching. What if you had students whose parents are simply not in a position to help in this department and then they came to you - what then? In that kind of scenario, would you try to help, knowing that they have no one else to turn to?
JH: That's a tough one. It's a can you can kick down the road you know, it's okay as a young person to not quite know what you want to be when you grow up. You don't have to commit to a career choice at the age of 13 or 14 and stick to it - what I tell students is that they need to explore different career paths that they may be interested in and keep their options open. They need to understand their strength and weaknesses and think about what kind of job would make them happy - sorry if this sounds like a vague answer, but keeping your options open seems to be the most sensible advice to give teenagers who don't quite know what to do with their lives yet. But yes, I do think it would be wrong for a teacher to start dishing out career advice about industries that he doesn't know anything about - the only sensible response would be to ask the student to find out more from a qualified expert, rather than pretend to know enough to offer any kind of useful advice. To be frank, giving career advice isn't really my job you know.
Amy: Any decent teacher should not offer advice about a topic that they don't have the expertise on - a child in my class wasn't feeling well and came to me for advice, she told me all her symptoms and you know what I said? I told her that she needs to go see a doctor and I made sure I told her parents that they needed to take their daughter to the doctor's. It's the same thing when it comes to something like career advice really - I can only really talk about teaching with real authority. My sister is an estate agent and if you came to me for advice on becoming an estate agent, then I'd just ask you to speak to my sister directly, rather than start dishing out advice based on what she has told me.
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| Do you need help finding your ideal job? Who do you turn to? |
Limpeh: To be fair, I was a rare case. My nephew's mother works in a hospital whilst his father works in banking. So I'm sure my sister and brother-in-law have plenty of useful career advice to offer from their respective fields in healthcare and finance. So at least I know he's going to be okay, I hope.
Amy: There are those who have a very clear vision and they can tell you, "I want to be a doctor, a brain surgeon!" So if you get someone who has that kind of clarity and ambition, then it's a lot easier for you to then help them identify the right path to take to get to exactly where they want to be in 10, 20 years' time. But even with people like that, I still encourage them to keep exploring and discovering as they may find something else they may equally enjoy and find fulfilling. With this current generation of students, I think they're a lot more resourceful than our generation in terms of doing their own research on the internet. That's a good thing, that means they are more capable of figuring this out for themselves and are not reliant on teachers or parents.
JH: If I may speak honestly Alex, you keep going on and on about your parents not knowing anything about the big bad working world beyond the school gates and you keep portraying them as ignorant fools - however, even if they worked in another profession, in another industry, you still shouldn't have expected them to have played a more active role in planning your career path. I always ask my students to proactively plan their own career paths, do their own research and figure out what they want to do with their lives rather than allow their parents to push them in a certain direction. The fact that your parents left you on your own to make up your own mind on what career to pursue is a good thing - there are too many stories of Asian parents who force their kids down a path they hate and okay, of course it would have been nice to have had some help from your parents when figuring out something like this but I just want you to realize that things could have been much, much worse. All they did was give you bad advice, they didn't force you to do anything you didn't want to. It could have been so much worse, you know.
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| I ended up working in finance - I'm not sure entirely how I ended up here. |
Limpeh: I recognize that but when it comes to talking about bad Asian parenting, I fear we are in a race to the bottom - when you go down that kind of reasoning, when you justify bad parenting with the "it could've been a lot worse" clause, then we start making all kinds of excuses to accept bad Asian parenting because there's always a worse Asian parent out there who have fucked up their kids more.
Amy: Alex is right on that one. I agree. We should always make comparisons with those who are better and aspire to do better, rather than justify the status quo by comparing it to those who have done a lot worse. The bottom line is this: do you wanna justify the way things are or do you want things to improve? What is your mindset?
JH: You should see some of the parents I have had to deal with over the years. Believe you me, your parents are not bad compared to them. But I accept your point about what we are comparing it to - perhaps in our minds, we have a set of values, a set of ideals that would make the perfect parent, it is what we would fill the textbook of Parenting 101 with on the chapter of career advice. However, if all you do is compare your parents to this set of ideals you have in your head, this set of ideals that constitute perfection, then I fear you're just going to set yourself up for one disappointment after another. That kind of comparison will only leave you very miserable I'm afraid. I'm going to politely beg to differ Alex, no offence, please. Now I've seen my friends who have good relationship with their parents and the most successful ones amongst them have made the best decisions because their parents have let them figure out what they want to do on their own - that's really the only way to make this kind of decision.
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| Am I wrong to hold my own parents up to a set of ideals? |
Limpeh: Returning to the issue of Singaporean kids suffering as a result of unrealistic expectations from their parents. What can teachers to to improve the situation in Singapore for them?
Amy: We are not the problem, don't blame the teachers. There are a lot of fucked up no good parents out there. You need to pass a difficult driving test before they let you have a license to drive a car, but any two idiots can fuck and make a baby tomorrow and then become the worst parents in Singapore. It drives me nuts.
JH: I think it is the lack of a plan B. Most parents want to see their kids go through the usual route and end up with a degree - they don't seem to have any concept of a plan B, a non-academic option for those who don't like studying for exams to acquire a skill, to learn a trade so that they can make a living as a skilled professional without a degree. It's not like such options don't exist in Singapore, there's ITE which has been around for ages, providing quality vocational training and credit to them, they are really good. However, most Singaporean parents would rather die of shame than to let their children go to ITE so they bludgeon them through the system and end up getting a degree not worth the paper it is printed on from some third-rate private university. So they can claim, "my child is a graduate - he went to university!" but they have actually fucked their child up royally because they have wasted so much time and money on a useless degree when really, that child would have been better off going to somewhere like ITE.
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| Would you gladly send your child to ITE? |
Amy: Totally. And after you get your training at ITE, you can always still get a degree at a later stage if that's what you want, but at least acquire some useful skills and training that will lead to gainful employment. I'm afraid as teachers, we can talk about plan B and different options all we want but are often ignored by parents if that's not what they wanna hear. We're not the problem here, but we're not even allowed to be part of the solution - the parents are the problem.
JH: Indeed. I don't think there's anything we can do to improve the situation as teaches, sorry. I'm not sure the government can even do that much - we're talking about a paradigm shift on such a scale that it can only take place over a few decades...
Amy: (Jumping in) A generation.
JH: Exactly. I do have a question for you though Alex. Why do you look down on teachers so much?
Limpeh: Woah. Talk about putting me on the spot guys. Come on.
Amy: You have indeed gone out of your way to put down primary school teachers on your blog. I get the feeling it's mostly because your parents were primary school teachers. Perhaps you get the impression that we're so stupid we can't handle anything more than a PSLE syllabus and you feel so mighty and superior in comparison to us mere teachers. That's why people get the impression that you're arrogant. You write well but you offend so many people.
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| Have I been guilty of looking down on teachers? |
Limpeh: Okay, I am probably very harsh on primary school teachers because of the impression that my parents have given me - mostly because they seem to be blissfully unaware of many things that go on in the working world, nasty things that people do to get ahead, office politics, lying, cheating, bullying stabbing your colleagues in the back. My parents are extremely naive and ignorant in that genuinely believe that society is very... orderly. That people genuinely are honest, follow the rules, follow the law and those who are dishonest, break the rules or cheat are punished for doing so. This is what they have to teach their students because they have to establish their authority over the children in the classroom - I'm the teacher, you're the student, you're in the classroom, I'm in the charge, you must follow the school rules and do as you're told. Working in a primary school for their entire working lives has sheltered them from the worst of society and perhaps, that's a blessing of sorts.
However, that has meant that they simply cannot understand any of my challenges in the working work - why are people so evil? Why are people so dishonest? Why are people so horrible? Why aren't the people who are so unkind still rewarded despite their bad behaviour? I am shocked at how naive they can be at times, to the point where I worry that they will fall prey to some conman who will cheat them out of their life savings as they are so gullible and childish. I cannot help but notice a correlation between my parents' profession and their naive, ignorant, gullible nature. Having said that, yes the sample size for my opinion is pitifully small - just two. I remember having been very frustrated with my parents' ignorance for so many years, they simply have no clue what the hell I am doing with my life as they cannot understand anything I do despite my efforts to explain. So it is not a case of "my mother could have worked for NASA and been a space engineer but she chose to become a primary school teacher". Becoming a primary school teacher was the right choice for her as she can't handle anything more intellectually challenging than the PSLE syllabus.
I accept that many primary school teachers these days are graduates with quite respectable degrees and they had a range of career options - but they chose to go into teaching. It is not an easy path to take - I think some people are naturally good at teaching whilst others are not. Just because you're good at a subject doesn't mean you'll know how to teach it well - I've had quite a few teachers over the years who were clearly experts in their fields but sucked at explaining concepts to the class. So it is not just a question of having mastery over the syllabus but being able to communicate the lesson effectively to all kinds of students - there's an art to teaching and some teachers are naturally good at it. If you were to ask me to state the teachers who impressed me, whom I liked a lot, sure I can name quite a few and I am very grateful to them for what they have done for me. But I'm afraid they were the exception and most teachers I met were more like my parents - hence I suppose it is my poor personal experiences which have clouded my judgement. Is this fair? Of course it isn't and I recognize that I haven't been fair to primary teachers on my blog.
Even my own parents didn't want me to become a teacher despite them having been teachers themselves - I guess it was the perception that they didn't bludgeon me through the rigorous education system, for me to get three scholarships only to then settle for teaching. Indeed, even they condoned the opinion that teaching should really be a last resort for me, that I should pursue a different career path since I had gone to university and was clearly quite intelligent. Neither of my older sisters went into teaching so it was never really on the cards for me either. I guess there was a part of me that really didn't want to end up like my parents - I wanted something very different for me in life. I'm not trying to use this to justify looking down on teachers - I'm just explaining the kind of attitude and mindset I grew up with when it came to this topic. I'm really sorry if I have offended any teachers out there by what I have said on my blog. But I accept that you're right, it is wrong to treat teachers as a monolithic entity and I've done just that.
JH: All I can say is please do not assume that all teachers are like your parents. We're not a monolithic entity.
Limpeh: And on that note, I shall end this interview. Many thanks guys for your honesty JH and Amy. Cheers.
It's true that not all teachers are like your mom and dad. I would blame the parents first. Teachers ... trust me, if you don't want to learn, I am not going to make you learn. I will not force it down your throat until you choose death over coming to school. I do my job. I teach. I motivate. I give reminders, I steer, I care, I worry too much, but in the end, it's up to the child and the parents. If they set unreal expectations, the child breaks. Not every child is made for medical school. I believe a teacher's role us to help the child realize his fullest potential. If that means he is going to be a career cook, then so be it. I look down the tunnel. At 18, I hope the child leaves the school system as a well-adjusted adult who will go on to post-secondary or the workforce as a compassionate, global, responsible, and productive individual who will also be a life-long learner in whatever his interests maybe. If everyone is a doctor, lawyer, engineer, who is going to build furniture, nurse us in the hospital,cook in restaurants?
ReplyDeleteEven if teachers were horrible like your mom, the parents are responsible for setting the environment at home where the child is loved and supported to be the best he can be, not what his parents or teachers think what he could be. Teachers are really quite powerless compared to parents. Trust me,I really don't care if my students became brain surgeons. I care if he ends up a happy and balanced adult.
Hi Di - did I tell you that my parents are coming to visit at the end of November? Eeeeeks.
DeleteWhy eeeeks? Did your parents 'eeeeks' when you returned to Singapore to visit them? They are your parents. They raised you. Forgot that?
DeleteAre you a new reader to my blog? Did you not realize that I simply do not get along with my parents at all? Listen, my sister went on a long trip to South Korea and I realized that if I didn't Skype my sister, then I just don't speak to my parents at all. My parents and I wouldn't even have a relationship if not for the fact that my sister makes an effort to hold the family together. When I return to Singapore, it is pretty much to see my sister rather than to see my parents.
DeleteDid you think that my parents are coming to see me? Ha! No they are NOT! I invited them to come to London the moment I moved to a bigger house and have more room for guests, they kept saying no. So I invited my sister, bro-in-law and my nephew instead and because my nephew wants to come, suddenly my parents want to tag along and come just to spend time with my nephew.
I kept telling them, please avoid the end of November as I will be working in Germany and guess what my parents did? They booked the flights, to come when I was supposed to be in Germany - so they will see my nice new house, spend time with their beloved grandson in London whilst I am in Germany. Great. You actually think my parents give a shit about me? They are not even bothered whether I am here in London or not.
It just so happens that the dates for my work in Germany have shifted to mid-Nov, so I will actually get to see them when they come here - but make no mistake, their original intention was to avoid me, use my nice new house as a hotel and spend time with their beloved grandson whilst avoiding the son they hate.
Quite frankly, I don't give a shit what they do. I'm just pleased to see my sister, my bro-in-law and my nephew. My parents may have raised me but they haven't paid any attention to me since I was like 13 or 14 years old. My mother was pressured into having too many kids because her Chinese culture demanded that she had a son - then when she finally gave birth to one, she probably realized too late that she wasn't that interested in having a real relationship with her son. My parents are probably going to bitch non-stop about everything from the food to the weather so I have already told them that I will be busy with work - please make yourself at home and let me know if you need anything, but I have no intention to spend any time with them since they have been mean enough to deliberately come when I was supposed to have been in Germany.
Damn they must be disappointed that their bloody rascal of a son will actually be home when they come to London. I told you they bloody hate me.
And you thought I was the bad guy? I can't force my parents to be even half interested in what I do. I have always said this: my readers actually know a lot more about me than my own parents. Heck, they don't even know what I do for a living. What kind of parents take thaaaat little interest in their son? I swear my neighbours, my friends, my readers know more about me than my parents. I can't force my parents to like me, to even take notice of me - if they hate me that much, or if they choose to ignore me to the point where I'm like a stranger they don't even talk to, then what can I do? I just focus my energy on people in my life like my friends who actually care about me, who are interested in me - I can't help it if my parents have lost any interest in me a long, long time ago. I'm practically dead to them. They're not coming to London to see me for crying out aloud, they're coming to London to spend more time with their grandson - the in-laws spent the last holidays with their grandson so they feel they need this time with him. The fact that I happen to be providing free accommodation is just coincidental. I wasn't even supposed to be in London when they're coming. They really timed it originally to avoid me you know? Do you know how that makes me feel - to think that they will come all the way to London but they really don't want to see me?
DeleteEeeeks much? I'm just dreading having to have awkward conversations with them - like, "look I've already told you what I do for a living, why are you even asking if you are clearly not interested?"
I am not a regular reader of your blog. But I know the topics you write because occasionally, I scan through keywords. I do not agree with many of your opinions in many topics and I usually stay away from any comments. However, as far as parents are concerned, I feel you have stepped out of line. I mean the publicity you give.
DeleteEveryone has problems with their parents at certain points of their lives. You are no different. But to publicly criticizing them is a whole different matter. You think your relatives and their friends don’t read your blog? You think what you write won’t go round and reach their ears? You know it is not nice if readers gossip about you. Likewise you think your parents will like it if people gossip about them?
I remember you were once sick in Singapore. Who looked after you? Your friends? Neighbours? Colleagues? Your readers? Wasn’t it your parents? If that is not love, what is?
I remember you mentioned your parents were 'not concerned’ about what you do for a living, how you fare at work and so on. They never once asked you that. But that is your opinion of how your parents should show concern. To them, they showed concern by looking after you when you were sick.
As for your point your friends and others know more about you than your parents, you have a good point. The other side of the coin is that probably their neighbours and friends know about them more than you do about them too. Thought about it?
LFT, I really do not agree with many of your opinions on many topics. That’s why I stay clear off your blog. However, I feel that you have done injustice to your parents, your family and yourself by washing dirty laundry in public. Everyone has family problems. Most just bite the bullet and remain silent, because if you spill the beans, for sure it would flame the tension further. Is that what you really want?
Eeeeeks indeed! They will drive you crazy. How selfish not to find a mutually convenient time to visit. I remember my mil did the same thing. Did not consult with us a good time to visit.
DeleteHowever, you will have a good visit with your sister. That will be just great. You can do this. Be the bigger person. Smile. Be polite. Be firm. Be gracious. Be a good host without being a pushover.
As for Hermit --- they raise you, but it is their job. The love and respect from a child has to be cultivated and maintained over the years. Raising a child can be done by a nanny. Big difference. Raising a child is easy if you have the resources. Loving your child unconditionally and having that special bond ... now that is purely from the heart and soul.
DeleteHow very Asian of you to think that just because they are his parents, he ought to welcome them with open arms.
Hermit, the following points are for you:
Delete1. You do not need to agree with me to want to read my blog. I present my opinion and that's based on my experiences (which are undoubtedly different from yours) and I hope that I at least write in a well enough manner to make reading my opinions a pleasant enough experience - if by the end of that, you don't agree with my opinion, that's fine. I never expected all my readers to agree with everything I say, simply leave a comment and tell me your POV and why you disagree with me and that's what my readers do. Don't feel the need to stay away and not read just because you disagree with me. The only reason why you should stay away is if you think I write poorly and reading my posts is a reading awful experience and you'll rather do something else - if that's the case, then by all means, go to another website, please.
2. My cousins read my blog and yes, I have 8.75 million page views, so there's a part of me that hopes that my parents will hear that I am saying awful things about them on my blog. You see, when my mother heard about my blog, she told me to stop writing because I will "ma zhengfu" (scold the government) and I made it clear that simply 'scolding' people on your blog doesn't get you any hits - you need to present it in a way that is compelling, interesting and I never just scold the PAP per se, I simply compare the situation in Singapore to the situation abroad and allow Singaporeans to come to their own conclusions once they are armed with that information to make that information for themselves.
But what you need to understand is this: ever since I was a child, I have always defied my parents. They ignored me as a child. When I was sick, my sister would take care of me - my mother would ignore me. Bet you didn't know that eh? When I had problems, I ran to my sister because I know my parents wouldn't care. How do I put this simply to you Hermit - you don't know what my childhood is like, you weren't that - you make so many assumptions about my parents without knowing the role my sister played. And your assumptions are based probably on your own experience, but you're so so so wrong on so many of your assumptions. My parents never took care of me when I was sick - they ignored and neglected me to the point where they wouldn't even notice if I fell very sick. I made a habit of annoying them by defying them, doing the opposite of what they told me to do just to get their attention - it was ridiculous of course, but to a child, making them angry that way seemed to be the only way they would pay any attention to me. If I was a 'good boy', I would get ignored and for some crazy reason, as a child, I actually want them to notice me, pay me some attention.
3. But as I explained - my mother isn't very highly educated or intelligent, she is a very traditional Chinese woman and was put under a LOT of pressure by her family and her in-laws to have a son and she felt it was her duty to do so. But once she got a son, there was a sense of, now what am I supposed to do as a mother? She had no clue and did all the wrong things, she was a terrible mother mostly because her mother was a terrible mother. She drove me up the wall and no I refuse to suffer in silence - I really don't see the point of confronting her as she is too stupid to have a mature discussion about it, so I talk about my issues on my blog. And if she hears about it and gets upset - quite frankly, I don't give a shit. For me, it's more important to get this off my chest than to maintain some kind of facade that we're a happy family - we're not. We're like the most dysfunctional family you could find in Ang Mo Kio with so many problems. But why should people in dysfunctional families feel the need to keep quiet and not talk about their problems?
Delete4. I will continue to talk about how awful my parents are on my blog not just because I am a nasty, mean, spiteful, unkind person, but because they told me not to do so and I will always do the exact opposite. And I also believe that others in my position, others with bad parents should not be suffering in silence, they should at least be able to reach out and speak to someone about their situation and seek comfort. We can't pick our parents and we can't change the situation - but what we can do is offer each other comfort. I've had so many meaningful conversations with others who have been through what I've been through and that means a lot to me - when was the last time I had a meaningful conversation with my parents? I don't know - 20 years ago maybe? or even longer?
5. I live in the UK today and left Singapore in 1997. I only visit my family once every few years and I was welcomed as a guest each time. Heck, my American friend Charles visited the UK and stayed a few days with me - he fell very sick as well and I took care of him, not because he is a family member, not because I love him - but simply because he was there in my house and fell ill. Taking care of the sick person in your house is the decent thing to do that I would offer any friend of mine. It is not some grand act of love - it's merely a small token of kindness that should be offered to any friend. If you think that small token of kindness is enough to make up for the tons of crap my parents gave me over the years, well you and I have to beg to differ.
6. Any kind of relationship is a 2-way street. If they cannot be asked to find out what the heck I am doing with my life (eg. what job I am doing), then how am I supposed to have any basis to establish a relationship with them? For example, I took on a new job this year and I had a meaningful discussion with my sister about the pros and cons of my old job vs my new job. I can't have that discussion with my parents as they don't know what my old job was and what my new job is - they don't care to find out. What can I do if they're not interested?
7. And no, I am going to continue washing plenty of dirty linen in public on my blog - not going to change the habit of a lifetime. I've always done the complete opposite of what my parents told me to do and it's always turned out just fine. I don't intend to change the habit of a lifetime. And I'm not going to listen to you Hermit just because you told me to do something, I've merely explained to you why I do things the way I do. You may not like it, but there's a lot of things in life that you're not going to like - my reaction to my parents is just going to be one of those things you don't like and can't fix / change.
For my dearest Ms Talasi:
Delete1. Can you imagine how furious I felt when I found out that the dates of their flight were smack in the middle of my stint in Germany? You know what their reasons were? My mother was paranoid of the cold and thought that it would be increasingly colder week by week as we progressed towards the end of the year - that's completely BULLSHIT of course. Weather is unpredictable and changes day by day, week by week. It bounces around like a yo-yo, depending on so many factors. Her assumptions were based on complete rubbish yet she insisted on visiting on those days despite the fact that I had very clearly told her DON'T COME DURING THAT WEEK I WILL BE WORKING IN GERMANY. I WON'T BE IN LONDON. Yet she insisted.
2. She bullied my sister and my bro-in-law into booking her the flight she wanted. They tried to reason with her, fine mum we'll get you the flight but let us choose the airline - we'll take a good airline. No, she wanted SQ or nothing despite the fact that it was so expensive. My sister even offered to get her business class tickets on another airline and she screamed no, I want Singapore Airlines. My mother barely travels, she knows nothing about airlines - she's a complete and utter ignorant swaku when it comes to travels; yet for some reason, she got completely fixated on flying SQ and we're talking about flying SQ in a period when it is the end of year holidays in Singapore = v limited availability + super expensive. So not only did she end up coming on those dates which I told her to avoid, she made my sister pay so much more for the flights than if they had chosen another airline like British Airways. What the fuck?!?! Only my sister has that kind of patience with my mother. I would just say, forget it, I don't wanna see you if you're going to behave like a brat.
3. My parents didn't so much as 'raise' me but fought me every step of the way until I was old enough to leave the home. There was no relationship whatsoever, they failed to earn my respect because (as Di explained) they assumed that I should and must respect them unconditionally no matter how unreasonable and stupid they are. My sisters did A LOT of the parenting where they totally failed me and I owe my sisters a LOT. That's why I am close to my two older sisters and not at all close to my parents. Family relationships are complex, I didn't wash my hands of my family altogether because I still have two sisters whom I am super close to. And one of them is coming to see me in London with her son, that's awesome.
I remember an episode of Family Guy where the 'pope' said, "the bible said honour your parents - it never said anything about liking them". I'm not religious, but I love the way they explained that difference.
Di Talais posted: "How very Asian of you to think that just because they are his parents, he ought to welcome them with open arms."
DeleteIsn't that stereotyping? How would it sound if I said, "How very Westernized to think that you can lampoon your parents in public"?
To LFT, I gave my input. You have different idea, that's fine with me. I have nothing left to add. For now, at least.
She gets her way because your sister, bless her heart, lets her. I suppose that was to shut her up. Anyway, the tickets are booked. You just prepare yourself mentally to host her. Breathe. You can do this.
Delete@Hermit - you know the saying, if the shoe fits wear it? I'm a total jiat-kentang banana, yellow on the outside, totally white on the inside. Tell me something I don't know - I'm very westernized? Duh, no shit Sherlock.
Delete@Di - I have no idea how my sister does it. My mum has done a lot for my nephew, that's why. The whole thing about bullying my sister into booking SQ was ridiculous. My sister knows that she has more chance with me being understanding than getting my mother to see sense - there are cheaper tickets with other airlines available on other dates, my sister even offered to upgrade my mother to business or first class but my mum decided to be as difficult as she can and insist on the one airline where availability is v limited. So if she complains that economy class long haul was uncomfortable for her back blah blah blah, I am going to be so nasty about it knowing that my sister did offer her 1st class on another airline. My mother is unreasonable and stupid - this whole SQ episode takes the cake.
LFT, my comment was for Di Talasi. I wanted to illustrate the stereotyping in his/her comment. I never meant to say anything about you being Westernized or not.
DeleteHermit, your response, "They are your parents. They raised you" therefore ... was stereotypically Asian. If you don't want to be stereotyped, don't say stereotypical nonsense like that. This blind loyalty and filial obligation is sheer nonsense. As I have said, if you have time and money, you can raise a child. To love a child, now that's a spiritual experience. As a mom who adores her son, I can't imagine not having him in my life. Heck, I would plant myself in his apartment every chance I get. Why would I bother visiting him if he were on a business trip? I wouldn't want him to change his business plans either because I want him to be stress free. I will more than give him medicine when he is sick. I will coddle him even when he is a sick adult because I will look for every chance to show him I love him. It will bring him back to when he was younger when all was safe with Mama. If anything, I have to remember not to suffocate my son with love. Alex's mom ... that's a 180. She forgets he's her son. Luckily for him, his sisters stepped up to show him love. God gives us angels.
DeleteHi Di, I just think that my mother has missed an opportunity - I don't think I'm such a bad person that she should wash her hands clean of me. If she actually got to know me, she may actually find some positive traits that are quite interesting. But the fact is, she makes zero effort to get to know me and I feel like, okay, fine have it your way. I can't impose myself on you and force you to take an interest in me - if you like what you see, then you will take an interest but I can take a hint if you're not interested in getting to know me.
DeleteThe whole thing about insisting on rushing to London as soon my nephew is done with his school term for the year "because November is not as cold as December" - like hello? That's complete bullshit. It can snow in October - it can be 22 degrees on Christmas day. It's called WEATHER, it changes - that's why we have weather forecasts. But based on that assumption that November is going to be warmer than December and some ridiculous motion that she must fly SQ, she bullied my sister into booking the flights for the dates when I was supposed to have been working in Germany. Talk about a slap in the face - she has gone out of her way to tell me that she really doesn't care if I am in London or not when she visits London, as long as she gets to spend time with her precious grandson. Like she doesn't care if she sees me or not - I don't know if anyone has parents who would behave like that, I think my mum has sunk to a new low.
But like you said, angels. My sister is an angel in my life and she's coming to see me. I'm grateful for that and will spend time with her. I knew I have always had a terrible relationship with my mother - I'm not pretending otherwise.
Di Talasi, I find it ironic that I see you exactly as how you described how you see me. If you think that filial piety and respect for parents is ‘stereotyping Asian’, whatever that means bcos Asian culture is so diverse it doesn’t mean a thing ….then the dichotomous argument would logically be disrespect for parents and non-loyalty to them is “non-Asian’ or ‘Western’. But that too means nothing because non-Asian can mean African, Hispanic, Mid-East whatever.
DeleteI gave my counter argument to your Asian argument to show you the illogical stance. Instead, you take my analogous example as illogical (which is, bcos it’s supposed to mirror your argument!) yet, take your illogical stance as logical!
The argument that if you have money and resource you can raise children is yet another ‘in the box’ thinking. Money and resource is of great help. No doubt. But the real ingredient, which is parents’ and communal care, is the most important. There are many children in third world who have scarce resource. But they have their parents and their community who look after their needs. They do well to survive to carry on their heritage and culture… for hundreds and some even thousands of years. Definitely not as comfortable as those in developed countries, but they are doing fine.
@Hermit, try not to judge someone until you have walked a day in their shoes. I have an equally cold relationship with my parents and i haven't been back to their home on Lunar New Year for 20 years and counting. When i fell sick with dengue no one was there for me. When i went under the knife on GA i was alone and had to get my god-sister (no blood relation) to fetch me from hospital since i couldn't walk properly.
DeleteSo yup parents really don't need to care or show love to their offspring just because they are blood related. In fact the mother dogs tend to ignore and nip at their puppies once they are a few weeks old so it is a good time for them to go to new owners.
Thanks Choaniki.
DeleteHermit: you are deliberately being disagreeable. I don't know why. You sure had no problems telling off Alex for his reactions to his parents' visit. I still maintain that your comment was very Asian. Your logic is that they are his parents; therefore, Alex should not dread their visit. How logical is that?
DeleteAs for the third world kids ... yes, they may get their basic needs met by their parents and community, with obviously less money and less resources, but what does that have to do with that special bond and love? How do you know they love their kids unconditionally? Some do. Some don't. Having enough to eat does not mean the families all have that special relationship we are talking about and which Alex does not have with his parents. Money and resources can raise a child. Less money and resources can also raise a child if there is help. Duh, obviously!What's your point? Are we splitting hairs over rhetorics to feed your fragile ego? Are you so upset that I think you are more and more stereotypically Asian with every word you write? Your insistence that he ought to be glad to have his parents over is illogical. Just because they raised him? Where is your logic? So what they raised him? So what?! It was their job. Where was the loving bond that a child needs? Alex has every right to feel however he wants to feel about the impending visit. It is not for us to tell him how he should feel. If he feel, "eeeeks!" then "eeeeeks" it is. Who are you to question his reaction? Stop your Asian pontifications.
Di Talasi, me deliberately disagreeing or you? I hv said that I let things be with Alex. Why are you still at it? Well if you want to be stereotyping Asians by linking filial piety and respect as ‘Asian’, that’s your choice. As if other cultures don’t have that.
DeleteSo we agree that money is a resource. Where we disagree is that it is an important factor it shapes the child’s growth. Notice how so many rich and famous people, in spite of their resources have wrecked family lives? You think their multi-million dollar divorce cases help the mental growth of their children? Compare that to the third world children who play in a carefree manner with their siblings, cousins, neighbours and friends. No internet, no facebook, not social media, no family car, no family holidays. But they are so happy. Because their family is well knit!
If you think I am stuck with “Asian culture”, whatever that is, you are stuck in your own thinking money is everything. Pleeeeze.
Sigh. Please read again. I said having money and resources can raise a child. I also agreed that having less money and resources can raise child with help from the community. That said, it is not enough. I never said money can shape a child. In fact, I said the contrary. Putting food and clothes require money and resources, but they are NOT ENOUGH. The special bond is a different thing altogether that money can buy. Alex was not poor. His parents provided. Yet he was lacking in many ways. So, putting food on the table is not enough. They raised him --- they fed him, clothed him, sent him to school --- NOT ENOUGH.
DeleteMy issue with you is judging Alex on his reaction to his parents' visit.
You just contracted yourself. You said 'their family is well-knit". You just agreed with me.
As to how you know so much about the emotional wellness and stability of a third world family is a good question. Trust me. They have their own issues. Don't be naive.
I think that Hermit may have confused two issues here: just because people don't talk about an issue doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. For example, I know my sister and mother argue and fight all the time. Oh boy. It usually begins with my mother making an unreasonable demand, my sister stands up to her and eventually realizes there's no point in arguing with my mother as she is incapable of being reasonable and eventually giving up and letting my mother have her way, no matter how ridiculously unreasonable she may be. My mother will never 'lose' an argument even when she is in the wrong, she's resort to emotional blackmail and lies (oh the worst part of it is that she is a really bad liar as she's too stupid to lie convincingly) and it's just painful trying to see her continue an argument like that making a total fool of herself. So we usually give in to her cos we feel sorry for her. You get the idea.
DeleteBut if you go to my sister and ask her about her relationship with her mother - she'll only say very nice things about my mother because she doesn't want people to think poorly of her or her family. It's this Asian thing, you don't wash dirty linen in public - you smile and say everything's great even though you're crying on the inside. Well, I don't believe in handling things like that, but my sister (who's a lot more Chinese/Asian than me) actually does.
I think Hermit wants me to behave like my sister - to keep my complaints to myself, to simply smile and say "everything's great" even when I realize that I do not have a normal mother - I have an autistic mother who has turned out to be a real nightmare at times. I suppose some people should assume that I should give in to my mother's unreasonable, bullying behaviour just because she 'raised' me but that's not the case: as children, we had no choice in the matter, we put up with her most irrational behaviour. But now, we as adults, can treat her like the adult she is rather than just giving her anything she wants.
In an ideal world, sure filial children should pamper their parents and give them what they want to make their lives more comfortable. But that's assuming you're dealing with a reasonable person of course: what if the person you're dealing with her some kind of mental illness/disability (as in the case of my mother) and thus makes totally unreasonable/irrational requests? What then?
Typo: "The special bond is a different thing altogether that money can buy."
DeleteI meant "The special bond is a different thing altogether that money can't buy.
Di Talasi, if you know that we both agree on key points, why are you still arguing? Now I repeat. I have said more than once that I have decided not to touch on LFT's case. So why are you bringing his case up yet again? Need something to disagree on?
DeleteIn any case, you didn't even dare acknowledge that the fact that the ones with tons of money in the world still have domestic family problems.
OK, I give you something to disagree with me. I still won't touch on any individual cases, including Limpeh's. I give generic case. In any relationship, it takes two to tango. An adult child cannot say that his parents are this and that, when he as an adult has the ability to change things for himself, unlike a little child who has little influence and gets affected by whatever happens around him. Sometimes in life you just need to let things go. Imagine carrying a huge baggage on your back for decades. Isn't that eroding your quality of life? And you allow to do it to yourself?
That is precisely my point. Money alone can raise a child but it cannot buy that special bond. I have already made that argument from the get go. Pay attention.
DeleteWe are not talking about the emotional baggage we all carry around. We are talking about whether we ought to be loyal and filial just because our parents raised us.
Anyway, I have had it with you. You argue for the sake of argument, and you are wasting my time. No matter what you write from here on, I will not respond. You are a vexation.
Di Talasi posted: “That is precisely my point. Money alone can raise a child but it cannot buy that special bond. I have already made that argument from the get go. Pay attention.”
DeleteNo, that was not your central point. Your central point was that I should let LFT be, which I have long ago. Stop creating an item of disagreement when none exists.
Di: “We are not talking about the emotional baggage we all carry around. We are talking about whether we ought to be loyal and filial just because our parents raised us.”
In many cases where adult children feel upset or bitter about their parents, isn’t the main ingredient that drags on that bitterness due to baggage-carrying rather than filial piety or lack of it? Drop that baggage and note how light and easy life would be.
Di: “Anyway, I have had it with you. You argue for the sake of argument, and you are wasting my time. No matter what you write from here on, I will not respond. You are a vexation.”
Nobody asked your opinion in first place. I was responding to LFT’s main article. You butt in, got yourself mixed up with what the issue is about, and now feel vexed?
Dear Alex,
ReplyDeleteMay I offer a differing perspective? Like your parents, I too have a mother who is a teacher. She, however, was the polar opposite of yours. I was always left wondering why my own teachers in school could not be as caring and as motivated as she was. Perhaps it is due to the fact that she is a teacher of the humanities. Like you, I would also be classified as a 'jiak kentang', and maybe this is why!
Or perhaps it is a matter of seeing 'bad teachers' simply as a product of the 'uniquely Singaporean' system? Your parents do sound like very old school conservative chinese-ed types, so you have my sympathies - combining that with an authoritarian approach to pedagogy and parenting sounds like a terrible recipe.
I find your struggles very fascinating because they highlight areas of tension that have arisen due to Singapore's rapid development. What place do Eastern values have in a Western world, and vice versa? (I find the rise in conservative/charismatic Christianity amongst Singaporeans a particularly disturbing trend, but we can talk about that some other time) The concept of blind 'respect for your elders' is in itself an illogical power dynamic. EG: If I had an 'elder' who murdered someone, should I respect that person? No. I probably would not because I am judging that person on his/her actions. By that same logic, we should judge people by how they treat others/us. Meanness begets meanness. It's really that simple.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I will respond later today when I have the time - right now, I have to rush to meet my boss in exactly 40 minutes :)
DeleteI guess I owe you a response, I was v busy yesterday with work.
DeleteI agree with what you said, the only thing I would point out is that I have already written a piece a while ago addressing this very issue, if I may refer you to it please if you haven't already read it: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/the-double-generation-gap.html
Hi LIFT, I dont presume to know about your parents, but I too have "traditional Chinese" parents. This is what I came to understand after numerous clashes & heartaches between them & me:
ReplyDelete-They feel hopelessly lost in modern society, most of Western culture is incomprehensible (esp re attitudes to sex etc). Even the extent S'pore has changed in 50 years, has them spinning & struggling to cope & adjust.
-They know theyve failed you, youre much smarter & successful than them. Its a mark of shame as parents, that they played ABSOLUTELY NO PART in making you who you are today, except in a reactive way when you defy them which is probably a source of much hurt, guilt & regret.
-You actually intimidate them. Your globe trotting, high flying jet setter lifestyle, multiple language proficiency & ease among foreigners are ALL completely alien, they dont know how/ where you learnt this stuff which confounds them making them feel perplexed & inadequate.
-Im even willing to bet they dont dare look directly at you when you talk to them, avoidance of eye contact = insecurity/ inferiority. You belong to another, better world theyre not privy to, it scares them that youre like a stranger, yet you are their son & they totally love you, but dont know how to express it.
This is how my parents behave too, its how they treat me & my siblings. They deserve pity, being thrown into the deep end of the pool & cant swim. BLAME IT ON CONFUCIUS!
Hello and thanks for your thoughtful comment. Allow me to respond to what you've said.
Delete1. Yes my parents do feel totally, hopelessly lost in modern Singapore given the way they do not understand or use modern technology at all (mobile phones, internet etc) and they seem to be stuck in a pre-internet time warp, being unwilling to embrace modern technology as society evolves. Add to that my fathers' refusal to speak English, oh dear.
2. I don't think they think that they've failed me - they will go into denial and claim credit if you confront them about it, they wouldn't wanna 'lose face'; but deep down inside, who knows how they feel?
3. But yes, the way I defy them has always been a source of hurt, guilt and regret - but they will always blame me for being a bad son. I can live with that, I really don't care if people (be it my parents or anyone else) thinks that I am a bad person. It can be extremely liberating to turn around and say, "I'm not a bad person, I'm a fucking evil nasty piece of shit, get it right." People think they can hurt me when they say I am bad, but when I tell them I'm even worse than they think - well, that takes that power out of their hands and I laugh.
4. I'm not sure if I intimidate them - they're just so oblivious to what I do anyway, in order for me to intimidate them, they need to know enough about whom I am, what I do etc to be intimidated: do they even know enough? I am not sure. I doubt it.
5. I don't think the eye contact thing is true with my parents anyway.
Follow up: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/shades-of-grey-my-family-are-visiting.html
ReplyDelete