Why does my dad think that a degree in finance is important for a career in banking? He said, "它给你一个基础" (it gives you a foundation). Oh man, I remember all the times when I was growing up in Singapore when I was given such bad career advice by my parents - frankly, the only career they could advice me on was teaching as that was the only industry they had any experience in. Anything beyond teaching was totally alien to them. It wasn't a case of them telling me, "I don't know - why don't you ask your auntie/uncle/neighbour/sister etc..." They would simply give me totally wrong information and then steadfastly refuse to admit that they were wrong.
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| Do you really need a degree to work in banking? |
I have been in the working world for a long time. I know there are plenty of young people out there today whose parents are simply not in a position to give them any kind of useful or relevant career advice - and I am so glad I am able to step in and offer that advice. There were so many things I had to figure out for myself back in the day and I'm happy to say to anyone today, "hey, don't worry if you're not sure, just come here and ask me and I'll try my best to help." So for anyone who has parents who are totally clueless when it comes to career advice, this piece is for you.
I am going to share with you what kept me really busy this week (I was so busy that I shot a vlog piece but have no time to edit it). I shall illustrate to you why no degree in the world could have prepared me for what I had to do this week.
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| We're working on securitization! |
On Monday, my boss David told me that we were launching a brand new securitization vehicle and that my colleague Mark will email me the initial draft for the marketing literature on it. My first thoughts were, oh shit, what exactly is securitization? I have heard that term before, I have read articles on it in the past but I couldn't remember what it meant. So that was when I turned to wikipedia for help and read the page on securitization for a quick revision - within 15 minutes, I felt confident enough that I understood the basic principles of what it was. This was a departure from my employer's core services (which I am very familiar with of course) thus it took me into unfamiliar territory.
Later on that afternoon, Mark did email me the draft marketing literature and I read through it carefully, studying exactly what we were offering and the USPs of our proposed plans. I then made notes on why our new securitization vehicle was better than anything else that is currently available in the market. I then played the part of the client who was seeing this marketing literature for the first time and asked all kinds of questions about the product. For those questions I couldn't answer, I went back to Mark and David for more information and clarification so that I could preempt any kind of questions that may come my way from the clients. By the end of the day, I had gone from being unsure what securitzation was to being fairly confident to speak to a client about the product from a marketing perspective.
By Friday, Mark and I have consulted with some of our existing clients to understand what their needs are and have further refined our marketing literature - we have also been passing this feedback onto our product development team to see if they can incorporate all the clients' needs into the product where possible. We have been passed more information on various options and this is an ongoing process that will keep me busy for several more weeks before the product goes to market - but that's my week in a nutshell.
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| This back and forth is going to keep me busy for a while... |
Now I don't have a degree that is relevant to finance at all - I have an arts degree from a top UK university which proves that I aced my A levels to earn myself a place there (on scholarship no less), but the degree is pretty much useless. But let's say if I actually did, how different would my week have been? At the start of the process, I would have spent a few seconds thinking, "Aaah securitization - I think there was a module that covered it back in university, but that was so long ago, I am not going to rely on my memory - I'd better go to wikipedia and read up on it anyway." Apart from spending say 4 or 5 seconds having that thought, everything else would have been done in exactly the same way.
Did my lack of a degree in finance/banking impede my ability to perform my job this week? No, it didn't. Even if I did do a degree in finance which included a module in securitization, it would have barely given me enough information to go on - I would still have had to do plenty of reading on the topic anyway since I am not taking an exam on the topic of securitization, I am specifically learn about the project that my company is doing. Now that's as niche as you can get and no course at any university can prepare you for something like that, it's all about accepting new challenges and learning to climb that steep learning curve as quickly as possible
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| Is your degree serving you well? |
Besides, I graduated in 2000 - that's 13 years ago. How do you expect me to remember anything from my time at university? Ask yourself this: can you remember anything you have studied from 13 or 14 years ago? If you needed to do a project based on something you have studied that long ago, would you try to rely on your memory or would you read up on the subject to make sure you have the right information? Heck, I can barely remember stuff I worked on five years ago, never mind what I studied back at university in the period 1997 to 2000.
In any case, like anything to do with technology, the world of finance evolves so quickly - even if I did study about securitization in 1999 or 2000, I would definitely spend time reading up on the topic to see how this concept has evolved (particularly since it played such a big part in the recession that started in 2008). Please note that there's nothing illegal about securitization per se, but it is the abuse of this concept that is illegal (as shown in the Youtube clip below from South Africa). This documentary demonstrates how this is an industry where new products have to evolve quickly because the rules and regulation change with time. Hence this is why I don't believe that there is really that much advantage in having any kind of degree in finance or banking at all for what I do. The curriculum at the universities simply cannot keep up with the pace of change in the industry - that's why you have to learn about the latest, most relevant developments on the job and NOT on a university campus. This is because by the time you graduate and find a job, a portion of what you have learnt as an undergraduate has probably become obsolete and there's something brand new that has hit the market in the meantime.
My parents have overestimated how useful a degree may be in the working world for one simple reason: they are (now retired) teachers - they would like to think that everything, right done to every lesson at primary school, plays a vital role in shaping the kind of working experience you will have in the future when you enter the working world. This theory exaggerates the importance of the role they play as teachers in society.
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| Can a degree in economics give you natural business acumen? |
I clearly don't agree with my parents. I don't believe one's education that important - it is the kind of attitude that one has as a working adult that plays a far more vital role in determining the kind of career you will have. I have talked a lot about what one can do to stay ahead of the competition as a working adult - so please have a read of my earlier articles on the issue. Sure if you can get a degree from a good university, then by all means go for it - but it pains me to see so many Singaporeans pin so much hope on a degree when it will actually do precious little to help them in their working lives. There's so much more they can do to help themselves!
So if your parents are giving you grief about your education or getting a degree, just take a moment and bear this thought in mind: your parents could be wrong. In fact, your parents are probably wrong. My parents didn't have anything useful to tell me when it came to career advice - in fact, instead of giving me no advice, they told me a lot of crap that was all misleading and untrue bullshit. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I would leave you with this thought: you're going to have to stop studying one day and start working, how are you preparing yourself for this transition? Don't pin all your hopes on a degree to set you up for life - you'll be amazed how little it will do for you in the long run. If you have any questions on this issue, please leave a comment below. Thanks for reading
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| Don't pin all your hopes on a degree girl... |
Limpeh, I do believe that a degree has many benefits which many people who are unable to go to university would be unable to experience, such as the critical skills experienced and required at that level. For one thing, I doubt that many people would be able to acquire the critical skills of thinking and processing information which I experienced at the graduate school level. That said, in order to obtain these skills, one has to pay a lot of money in the thousands, or even tens and hundreds of thousands??!! Well, I was among the luckier ones, but many do not have the luxury of being paid for via scholarships and assistantships. Some actually end up with a mountain-high debt for their expenses.
ReplyDeleteIn my case, because I wanted to actually get a job as a university lecturer for a while(even if not for the rest of my life), I did two graduate degrees(a Master's and a PhD), but it is probably not the road that many take in any case. If I were to switch careers, which is possible in these times, I would have to retrain, and if necessary, take a vocational course for months to re-train. The question of the usefulness of my PhD and MA is actually something peripheral in this case. However, on the other hand, I doubt that anyone who wants to migrate as skilled labor can actually do so without a degree to his or her advantage (it helps a lot in garnering points for sure). Just my take in any case.
Aaaah Kev, this is where you and I have to beg to differ - sure there are certain professionals with technical content (medicine, dentistry, engineering etc) which make a degree a must, but otherwise in other areas like banking or marketing (which I am involved in), one doesn't really need a relevant degree (or a degree in the first place).
DeleteAs for thinking/processing information, do we really need a university to teach us that? Let's compare this to what I had to do last week - I was given a new topic, "securitization" which I knew little about. I did the equivalent of what I had to do at university: I did my research and reading and prepared my coursework (ie. marketing material) and acquired a working knowledge of the topic to allow me to do my job. Would I have been unable to do that if not for my degree? I don't think so - it is but one component of what I had to do; the rest of it was about being able to figure out what information was relevant to what the project was about and filter out the tonnes of irrelevant stuff. I think it's presumptuous to assume that one would have no idea how to do that without having spent 3 years at university - after all, whilst the subject topic (securitization) may be complex, filtering the information isn't complex per se, it is just time consuming.
As for critical thinking, good grief - how many graduates are there in Singapore and how many of them are capable of critical thinking? You can't teach someone to think critically, it is more like a personality trait and to imagine that a university can give you that... is a fallacy. It's like imagining a degree in economics can teach you natural business acumen or a degree in English can turn you into a creative writer. Creative writing is something that comes from a different place... that creativity can be polished, refined and nurtured, but it cannot be taught.
So Kev, I know you are pursuing a career in academia and I wish you all the best - but the needs of someone like me are quite different. I am relying on the skills I have picked up through work experience, I barely remember what I did at university. (I remember the wild & crazy parties though...)
About teaching creative writing, unfortunately my department totally does not subscribe to the idea that you wait for a 'creative spurt' to come and then write and write, and that when it does not come, you cannot force it. If you talk to my professors about it, you might in fact have a serious argument with them LOL. A number of them are acclaimed writers in Canada with over 15 refereed publications in their field(my university is actually the only one in Canada offering a PhD with a creative writing emphasis, although I specialized in something else, namely the critical studies track). The standard means by which the professors teach creative writing is actually to get students to workshop their drafts of writing, and there are deadlines to meet, so well, no such thing called 'waiting for the creative juices to flow' would be accepted by the professors as an excuse.
DeleteI do not technically think that critical thinking is just a trait. There are things such as logical thinking that has to be taught, such as how to recognize a fallacy when you see one, so that you do not make it, or to detect someone else's fallacy, so as to be able to establish your own argument. I actually have to seriously disagree with you on the counts of creative thinking not capable of being taught, because philosophers make a living out of teaching it actually, and that also applies to creative writing.
As for the 'real' working world such as the financial sector, yes, you probably do not need a degree, because you learn as you go along. However, the financial sector has always been a different sector from others such as academia or even social services and also, teaching sports and fitness. After all, it's based largely on meeting deadlines and handling large sums of money, as well as generating more money with money. Its logic is somewhat different from that of other industries such as academia or even social services, which are predicated on the basis that you do it because you love it or because you believe in its 'mission'(or 'purpose'), not for the pay necessarily(academics actually earn very little as professionals, and sometimes less than construction workers or plumbers to be honest. If you even look at the case of social workers and even people like personal trainers or sports coaches, it differs and can be measly at times.). The bottomline is, it really depends on the job and its nature.
As for parents' advice, well, mine gave me none, or more likely, tried to restrict me from doing what I wanted for fear that I would end up becoming what Singaporean society stigmatizes, basically, the over-qualified intellectual who cannot fit into corporate culture in Singapore and its demands for conformity. That said, I guess that I did not regret it. Perhaps, if I have advice then, I might or might not have chosen another path, but since I made my choice then and insisted on it even if I knew the odds and might even give up on it later in the long run, at least I know that it is still done out of interest. O yes, I do things out of interest, and do not care much for what 'utility' people subscribe to it socially, but that is just me :p
DeleteThink you misunderstand the point of an undergraduate degree. Undergraduate degrees exist not to teach, but to filter students through their signaling function. If you come from a "good" school, it reduces the amount of work for a recruiter, whether a head hunter or internal HR, because you have signalled your ability to learn. What you learn, well, let's just say that I've never had to specifically apply anything I learnt in university beyond basic concepts.
ReplyDeleteGraduate degrees are quite different, of course, except for MBAs which are a similar signalling device.
As you know, many times the most effective employees in a financial services company do not have a degree from a "good" university. That's because they've proven their chops through their work and P&L. But it took them a hell of a lot more to make it past that initial screening and that first job.
Hi Huichun. In this piece, I am trying to refute my parents' misunderstanding of the point of a degree - you see, there's a part of them that thinks, "I could have gone to university, but in those days, I didn't get a chance, I could have been a graduate etc..." Especially since they work in education, not having a degree has always been a big regret on their part and a big chip on their shoulders. So this clouds their understanding of the function of a degree.
DeleteI totally agree with your point that degrees are but a 'signalling device' and are more reflective of my A level grades (ie. did you do well enough at A levels to get into this top university?) and there is an element of intellectual snobbery amongst some recruiters & employers: ie. they will discriminate against those who did not go to a reputable university (ie. equivalent of top ten in the UK, if not top 5). After all, in the UK, we have 130 universities - those in the top 10 are fantastic, anything beyond the top 30 is not worth your time or money and anything in the bottom half is just like... you get the idea.
So it is my PARENTS who have misunderstood the point of an undergraduate degree - that's the whole point of my post. (PS. They're in their 70s, they are that old.) I suppose for them, it was a big deal if you were a graduate back in the 1950s and 1960s, so if you did have a degree, you're outstanding and special - but in this day and age, everyone has a degree so it takes a lot more than a relevant degree to ensure that you are successful in your career. One needs to focus on all of those other areas (aka soft skills) rather than the degree per se - and as we get older (I am 37), university becomes but a distant memory and we are more and more reliant and dependent on what we have learnt through our work experience since graduation.
And yes, in the world of finance (as in sales), if you can prove yourself (say on the trading floor) as someone who can make money for your company, who cares what university you came from (or if you even have a degree). And as for the snobbery and discrimination against those not from a top 10 university, well, that's another issue altogether but it suffices to say that not everyone is well served by that kind of snobbery and an employer would be a fool to ignore an obviously talented candidate who doesn't have the right degree.
Whoops, I have misunderstood! :)
DeleteBut I think you underestimate the costs of recruiting. A friend of mine once received a stack of resumes at a now defunct investment bank (the name exists but the firm is dead dead dead) at 7pm and was told to identify 3 candidates for the desk to interview by the morning.
In a case like that, what do you do? You ignore anybody who doesn't come from an Ivy. You pick the top two GPAs unless their cover letter makes them sound like assholes. Then you pick the sole candidate who worked for a modelling agency because, well, why not?
Search costs are expensive. If you don't fit the stereotype profile, well, don't bother applying because the first year analyst - who fits the profile - will tune you out. Unless you are superhuman.
As always, perfect is the enemy of good enough.
Oh yeah, I spoke to someone who works in IT yesterday and he gave me this huge rant that went like, "why are there non-technical people in HR dealing with IT professionals when these HR idiots barely know how to work an iPhone? And we're relying on these HR idiots to decide who is right for the job? WTF? etc." You get the idea.
DeleteYes the snobbery which exists within many industries and if you wanna get a job with a big investment bank, good luck to you. But then again, there are plenty of routes open to people who don't wanna go down that route - I am consulting to a very small company (two directors: one Cambridge educated, the other from the university of chapalang-wherethehellisthat?!) and apart from the Cambridge educated boss, I'm the only other guy in the company who has a respectable degree as far as I know - but who cares? It almost feels childish to compare university degrees like that at this stage because I value my colleagues in my team in terms of what they bring to the table when we work together, rather than which university they went to.
So - for every one investment bank which chooses only Ivy league candidates, there are smaller, more independent companies like my employers who don't believe in that kind of snobbery.
Yeah, agreed. And also, once your foot has made it through the door, what you've done professionally makes far more difference. But a "good" degree does make more of a difference than a regular degree.
DeleteThink the UK is different from the States - most universities are of relatively comparable standing as far as signalling goes. The difference between Oxbridge and, say, Oxford Brookes is large, but is not as large as that between an Ivy League degree and, say, a moderately well known school like Tufts, let alone a 2 year community college. But the cost of going to Tufts is comparable to that of going to an Ivy.
It is snobbery, no doubt about it. But it makes a difference in options, at least when starting out, and that should not be minimized. Path dependence is a thing, after all.
Unfortunately in SG all the bosses are that small minded unless you have the fortune to work for an European or American boss.
DeleteHmmmmm. Even I think that's a bit harsh - are ALL bosses in S'pore that small minded?
DeleteAnd even if you do meet one boss who's small minded (or mean, cruel or just an asshole), then you can always change jobs or go work abroad.
Hi Huichun, it's been a busy day but allow me to reply to your comment above:
DeleteI can't comment on the American system but for what it's worth let me speak about the UK system. There are basically 4 tiers of universities when it comes to 'signalling'.
ELITE: Ranking top 3 to 5 (Oxbridge plus a small handful)
Very good: Ranking top 20 excluding the elites
Average: Ranking 21 - 50.
Crap: 51 to 130.
Of course, the cut off points for these 4 tiers depend on so many factors and it is really just a rule of thumb but yeah you get the idea about the way signalling works in the UK by that token.
In my time, I have seen Oxford graduates stuck in very ordinary jobs as well as people from universities on the wrong end of the league table go on to do great things despite going to a crap university - I guess one can conclude that one's future isn't determined by your choice of university.
Not sure if my last comment got eaten. But in any case, think you're a bit too dismissive of the snobbery. It's not right to be snobbish. But having a degree gives options, and having a "good" degree gives more options.
ReplyDeleteCaveat: This only matters for the first job. As you rightly point out, what you do after the first job is what gets you your second, third and so on.
Hi again Huichun. Let's put it this way, there's a lot of things that are 'not right' in this world: sexism, homophobia, racism, snobbery etc. I'm not condoning snobbery by being dismissive of it - but I'm like, "I didn't write the rules of society!" People are snobbish and that's a fact of life - I don't condone it, like come on, think about my background. I come from a Chinese-speaking family in Ang Mo Kio - my family background is as humble as one can get compared to some of the people I met at university. I have even done project work with minor royalty at university.
DeleteIt has been a combination of luck and sheer hard graft that I actually got to where I was today - in the words on my sister, I am blessed with 小聪明 - I am streetwise and good with people as opposed to just being academically brilliant. So I want to play the devil's advocate here - sure a good degree is of course useful, but what about the element of 小聪明, being streetwise?
Think that being good at getting a job and doing a job are two very different things. I'm sure you've run across the dude who interviewed really well, but when it comes time to deliver...
ReplyDeleteAnd staying/being promoted in a job is yet a third skill! So, all three dimensions are important - a degree helps you stick your foot in the door by getting the job; smarts/adaptability lets you perform; and street smarts/personality keeps you there.
Btw, sometimes the mobile network eats my posts, so may end up double posting every so often. Sorry about that, Bro.
No worries, if I come across a double post, I will delete the duplicate. All comments are moderated anyway due to my control-freak mentality (and the hate mail I get)... I have written a lot on the issue of job interviews before because I had to figure it all out on my own with no help from anyone and I was rubbish at it when I was so much younger and I CRINGE when I think back upon how terrible I was then... Hindsight's 2020!
DeleteHi LIFT, thanks for sharing your thoughts about the relevancy of a degree again. I have posted before but I didn't realise that you don't enter into private correspondence. I apologise for flooding your notifications/inbox/comment box. This time, I guess I'm alright with my comments being out in the open since I figured that I'm not posting nuclear launch codes anyway haha.
ReplyDeleteI'm a 22 year old girl studying graphic design in Japan. How I ended up in Japan is a long story, but to cut the long story short I took A'levels in 2009 and when my results came out in 2010, I decided to work instead of going to university as my results weren't good enough to get into law school (it was ABBB, it wasn't that bad, now that I think about it) despite having studied so hard. It wasn't that I couldn't get into university per se (I don't think my results are that bad...), I just thought that if I couldn't get into law school, I wouldn't even bother trying to apply. Looking back, I totally regret not applying back then; I might have a shot at law school. But then again I had always liked Japan so I guess I would have come here one way or another anyway.
Right now, I'm considering a few options after graduating from design school. One of the options is that I would work in a design firm for one or two years, and then get a freelance job and get married to my current boyfriend and work from home. Eventually, I hope that I will be able to earn enough money to set up my own business, but this will be a long term plan and I will see how it goes.
Another option is to go back to Singapore and enroll in NUS law school. I know I don't need a degree if I'm going to be an entrepreneur eventually, but it's been tugging at my heart for so long. I haven't completely given up on my dream of being a lawyer yet, so it always feels like something is missing in my life. The problem is, if I go down this route, I will have to be away from Japan for 4 years and more, and that means I will have to be in a long distance relationship with my boyfriend. He's Japanese, and he doesn't want to leave Japan. He also happens to be the eldest son, and the Japanese still have this tradition whereby the eldest son must go back to his parents' place and carry on his father's legacy. So I think it will be difficult to persuade him to come with me to Singapore; I will also need his parents' approval and that is near impossible I think. Plus I'm not sure if I can really get into law school in the first place; I will be competing with fresh A'level grads who will have much better grades than me and a much better portfolio. I don't have much confidence in carrying on a long distance relationship, but I also don't want to give up on us. But I can't reach a compromise if I were to go back to Singapore and pursue a degree in law.
The last option is to follow in your footsteps and go into banking haha. But instead of going to a university I will just go for internships and try to secure a job from there, since I think I will be too old by the time I graduate. I know it will be difficult to compete with many other graduates and prove myself worthy of the job, but at least I can still work in a bank in Japan. This is the best compromise I can reach I guess.
It's not always the case, though. :/ I want to be a policy analyst for international relations, and if not for the degree that I am about to earn, I wouldn't have known anything about IR theory, or the kind of training needed for analysis or in writing good analytical papers.
ReplyDeleteLet's put it this way Davin - there are some careers where you simply MUST have the relevant degree, like medicine for example. All doctors must have been through medical school at university, right? Well, all GPs at least... But in my case, I am merely illustrating how I can have an irrelevant degree and still make a career in an unrelated industry.
DeleteIt's good that you have ambition and know what you want to do - hence your choice of degree, but let me throw you a curved ball here: let's say you don't get what you want. You don't manage to get a job as a policy analyst for IR, then what?
I tell you what will happen in that case - you'll merely end up doing something else which you have not considered but stumbled upon in your job hunt and which you will think, "actually this is not bad at all lah, it's just that it wasn't my first choice..." Then your degree will become as irrelevant as mine and you will just have to climb that steep learning curve as you go along.
Just saying.
But hey good luck with the degree and future job hunt mate.
(First post was too long so I have to break it up into two parts.)
ReplyDeleteI know it's strange to consider law and banking careers when I'm studying graphic design, and while I do like what I am studying, I regret a little signing up for this course. I rushed into this decision and now I wish I had given it more thought and discussed it more with my family and friends before enrolling into design school. Drawing has always been my hobby and while it's nice to be able to enjoy my hobby at work, I can't turn it into a lifelong career. I have just finished my internship at a design firm and realised that I have made a terrible mistake by thinking that I could be a designer. It's a lot of overtime work and very low pay. If I'm going to work that many hours, I'd rather earn much more money and that would mean a career change to something like law or banking.
I could just get married and not work like many other women in Japan, but my parents are dependent on me after retirement (you know best the situation in Singapore). They have sacrificed a lot just to let me study in Japan, but I have totally let them down by making such a rash decision. They are getting on in age as well and I do have to start providing for them soon.
I have read a lot of your posts on universities and degrees, but I still cannot find any solution to my problem. Maybe because it's not a straightforward question like, which course should I study or where should I pursue my studies kind of thing. (But I do wish that I had come across your blog much earlier in my life so that I would not have made those stupid decisions.) My decision in the future involves not just me but the people dearest to me as well. Besides, I have already made a mistake, so it's also about undoing that mistake (if it's even possible). I know you are busy with work and stuff - and also the CHC saga, really juicy and fun to read, keep it coming!(I hope you haven't forgotten about the Jerard Lee vs Timetric case as well!) But yeah, if you have the time, I would really really greatly appreciate your reply. I believe your insights can help me see the light.
I'm very sorry for the really lengthy post. I really don't know who else to discuss this with, so please help. Looking forward to your reply.
Thanks in advance and have a good day!
Cheers,
Amber
Hi Amber, thanks for sharing your story.
DeleteGiven how ridiculously competitive NUS law is, I have to be blunt here (forgive me please), your chances are very slim I'm afraid. By all means, CALL THEM UP, speak to the registrar or someone relevant at NUS law http://law.nus.edu.sg/contactus.html and discuss your unique situation and they will be able to tell you just how slim your chances are - be it "it's worth a try" or "no way sorry". Now that's down to them, and I don't wanna speculate on what they will say. Speak to them, it's just a phone call to Singapore. You didn't get straight As but who knows, maybe your experience in Japan puts you heads and shoulders ahead of these other kids who have never ever done anything in the real world at all.
As for banking, again, I see you easily fitting into a company using your language skills (I trust you're totally fluent in Nihongo right?) - there are asset managers and fund managers who invest in the Far East: Japan + China + S Korea + others in the region and they need research staff who will be able to help them make sense of the volumes of data/information that comes through them in Japanese/Korean/Chinese so as to decide where the best investment opportunities are.
Many of these jobs would be in financial centres outside Japan though - London, New York, Frankfurt, Singapore rather than Japan per se... But perhaps there are also Angmoh companies in Japan who require a conduit between the English speakers and the locals (in this case, it's not just banking per se, but any foreign company)...
Like I said, your language skills are but a foot in the door - after that, like me, you just have to pick up new skills, learn very quickly and climb that learning curve. My French managed to get my foot in the door for my first 3 jobs (not Chinese, but French but then again, I am in London not Singapore) but I was not merely doing translating, I was doing so much more and it was a case of making the best of any situation I was given and saying, "I can do this/that" and then learning very quickly.
What you also need to do right now is to speak to people in Japan - as you're talking about working in a country I know relatively little about in terms of the job market. Is there a gaijin community you can tap into and find out what they say?
Dear LimPeh,
ReplyDeleteI enjoy reading your blog and I hope I can make it out of Singapore one day like you. I believe things will only get worse in the future for Singapore. By 2030, I can imagine a Singapore resembling the soulless Dubai.
I am currently serving NS and have finished my A levels last year. I will enrol in NUS in 2015. I have two more years to decide what to study.
My score is average ABB/C , GP is B and PW is A. Much like Amber Chong you spoke to here. Good enough to enter local university but not good enough for scholarships and competitive courses. You may like to refer here for the cut-off point (10TH PERCENTILE) of the respective courses in NUS since you haven’t been in the SG Edu system for many years: http://www.nus.edu.sg/oam/gradeprofile/sprogramme-igp.html
I applied for Bachelor of Science in Business Analytics from NUS School of Computing. It does not have a cut-off point since its new but I still got into it in the end. It is a new course starting only this year 2013, in response to the increased demand for productive usage of large amount of data available. You can read more about the course here: http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/is/ug-bsc-ba_prospective.html
I have picked my course based on future job prospects and not interest. I am not from a well-to-do family and cannot afford to pick up a Mickey Mouse university degree for I have a $30K tuition fee debt to pay off once I gradaute. I was actually interested to pick up a philosophy degree from NUS but looking at the ranking of the philosophy course (Between 50th-100th) as well as the job prospects scared me away.
1. My greatest fear is that this Business analytics degree could be another over-hyped course and NUS has overestimated the demand for the data-mining industry. In 2006, the NUS life science course was similarly overhyped by NUS (http://madnessreloaded.blogspot.sg/2006/10/what-is-worse-than-being-nus-grad.html). I have looked up on the internet and found out that SIM University (A Mickey Mouse Uni) has also offered this type of degree. Is history going to repeat itself? Is my fear unwarranted or something that I should take heed of?
2. Are there any Mickey Mouse degrees in particular that you would warn against poor people like me from taking (let’s use the NUS list of course above in this case)?
3. As a 19 year-old, what exactly can I do to plan for immigration in the future? Let’s say I currently have S$10K of savings, I don’t think spending it on expensive overseas trip is wise right? Can this sum of money be put to better use? What would you suggest I do with it?
Thank you for reading my story and I look forward to your advice!
Hi Rocky, thanks for your comment. I am currently working through something important for my boss right now (which he needs me to finish by the end of today), so I am sorry I cannot type a long reply now. I just wanted to assure you that:
Deletea) I will write a much longer reply for you, probably tonight when I finish work.
b) you sound like a very intelligent young man who knows a lot about his options, unlike some of the more clueless people out there!
Laterz dude, sorry must dash now.
Hi Rocky, I've read the curriculum of the NUS Biz Analytics programme http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/is/ug-bsc-ba_prospective.html and OMFG, run. Run far far away. What a fucking joke. What a total fucking joke and it will be a total fucking waste of your parents' hard earned money and a waste of 4 years of your life.
DeleteLook you wanna talk about 'productive usage of large amounts of data' - there are two routes to take for that. One is the hardcore maths route - we're talking about quants who work for the investment banks; we're talking about maths gurus who work in finance and are paid a lot of money for their number crunching skills. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_analyst This fluffy NUS course does NOT give you the necessary maths skills to operate at that level - not by a LONG way.
There are then the qualitative analysts - and again, this course is USELESS for qualitative analysis. For this, we're talking about the work that I do in the arena of PR and marketing where we you need to know your topic well (in my case, financial services) and anything to do with the marketing/PR aspect has to be learnt ON THE JOB and not in a classroom (what a fucking joke).
If you're picking a course for your job prospects - then what the hell are you doing, picking this fucking pile of bullshit for a course? Ditch it, FAST!
2. There are too many Mickey Mouse degrees out there - my premise has always been simple: firstly, you need to get a degree from a respectable university (ie. NUS not SIM) and beyond that, come back to me with a few courses that I can examine more closely and I'll give you my verdict. The list of Mickey Mouse degrees is just too long for me to cover here.
3. If you want to move abroad, then you need to pick your choice of country first - then you need to find out what professionals are in short supply there and would be easy to obtain a work permit for, then based on that, you should then work backwards and decide what degree you need to get you where you wanna be. As for the money, it's such a small amount it's not gonna make any difference or be of much use in the grand scheme of things, so just save it for a rainy day...?
I agree with LIFT for different reasons. I've been in the IS/IT industry for 10 years now and the only time I've heard of the term business analytics is more recently when all the telemarketers cold call my office trying to sell me some software solution.
DeleteThere is currently no position that requires this specialist knowledge and I doubt in the 4 (or 6 years with NS) after you graduate that this industry would suddenly emerge from nothing.
In fact this degree is too general to be of much use and most successful businesses already are very successful and will continue to be so with the experience of their top management and not from some fancy analytic software or analyst churning out reports from data mining.
If you want a CS related degree get something with practical usage like coding and no something that creates no value like the actuary industry.
@choaniki
DeleteWhy do you claim that the actuary industry has no value? Is insurance not important?
I didn't say that is has no value but rather creates no value. I don't have high opinion of property or insurance agents in general. But that is a story for another day.
DeleteHello there Rocky, it's 1 am and I'm replying :)
ReplyDelete1. Erm, you picked such a wide range of courses - computer, arts, science and maths, engineering - surely your heart must point you in a certain direction? There's no point in choosing something you just have zero interest in. As for that list, I would say that the only two that strikes me as useless are the 2 courses in the arts dept, with the one in communications and new media being the biggest turkey of them all. Look, I have an arts degree as well okay and it was a hard choice I had to make - I was offered a scholarship to study at a top British university to get a useless degree (but from a brilliant university) so I said yes as I was so desperate to get out of Singapore but gosh my degree is so fucking useless.
Let me know where your heart is pointing you at this stage - surely you must have a preference.
2. The rankings are reliable lah, there are several different rankings and NUS is always around the 30-something rank globally, so you do know NUS is excellent for anything of that calibre is very, very respectable indeed. As for the individual course ranking, you should put that aside and pick a course that you have some interest in otherwise you will hate your time at university should you force yourself to study something you have no interest in.
3. You will need to get qualified in the profession and gain some work experience in Singapore probably - it is highly unlikely that you will be able to get a work permit right away for that country without actually having had any work experience. Some further reading for you:
Do a google search for: limpeh working abroad and you will find the many articles I have written on the topic - read them and then come back to me as I answer many questions pertaining to work permits and immigration there.
Hi LIFT, this post came up some time ago but I though it should be shared since it takes about raising of kids so is kind of related.
ReplyDeletehttp://veritas-lux.blogspot.sg/2013/09/making-genius-children-you-can-only-do.html
The subject-based ranking for NUS is actually much higher than it's overall ranking for computing and engineering. E.g. Computer science this year is 8th, various engineering courses range from 5 to 12th, statistics is 5th, medicine is 20th, etc. I wonder who's pulling the overall ranking down =).
ReplyDeleteWith regards to the 3 courses in Computing. If you want to be globally valuable, computer science is the way to go. The other two courses basically swap out technical fundamentals for business related studies. Picking up hardcore fundamental technical skills is a must, you have to be passionate about your chosen discipline to excel. Recently there have been some undergrads securing internships directly with the big US tech companies. So I wouldn't worry about whether NUS is recognised internationally for computer science. For the big firms, the internship pay is better than the starting industry salary in SG. For those (the many) that don't get that, there's also an NUS overseas college program that gets undergrads to work in tech startups in silicon valley and to do some modules at a US university. Hence, there're opportunities for overseas experience besides the usual local experience.
Needless to say, to succeed you must have a knack for programming. If you have never done it before, and want to do a computer science course, it will be good to try your hand at it before committing. Although programming is taught from the outset, there are those that will find out they just can't do it in their first year. These people will either change courses (e.g. switch to the other 2 courses), change faculty, or worse, just flunk out.
As for business analytics, if it is a new course, it may not be as well recognized as the computer science course. I wouldn't say it is useless, many of the techs for that are usually taught at the graduate level and involves more math. SG's industry is very likely backwards in that area. They are more likely to buy somebody's solution to customize than to build their own. So you will take a gamble if you intend to work locally -- it could be big when you graduate, or not. Right now there are firms specializing in consultancy for these things in SG so there could be promise. The CS course is probably flexible (you better check that) in its advanced modules so it's probably possible to cover some modules on analyzing data in your final year by taking the graduate level courses.
Hello Limpeh!
ReplyDeleteMy heart tells me to pick one of the two engineering courses :
1) Mechanical Engineering (http://me.nus.edu.sg/prospective-students/what-is-me)
2) Industrial and Systems Engineering (http://www.ise.nus.edu.sg/BEng/index.html)
Hi Limpeh,
DeleteI did some research about Industrial Engineering. It is perceived to be a VERSATILE degree with a "niche discipline dealing with focus on management and mathematical modeling of systems." Wikipedia definition of industrial engineering included "people, money, knowledge, information, equipment, energy, materials, analysis and synthesis, as well as the mathematical, physical and social sciences"
This sounds like another Engineering course infused with Business studies and other Chapalang (Isn't that similar to Business Analytics which is a mix of business and computing?).
Interesting, industrial engineers are sometimes called "imaginary engineers".
So is this another Mickey Mouse degree ? Sometimes, I think I use "mickey mouse degree" too often but what can be a better way to describe a useless degree?
Hi Rocky, both courses you have listed sound like decent options but I must stress that you must have some interest in engineering please, otherwise there's no point in you going down this path.
DeleteI am wary of courses that try to be too versatile and teach you too many things - that's a weak degree, they try to make you a jack of all trades but master of none. In reality, with such a diverse programme, you are simply not spending enough time focusing on any one area to become well and truly properly trained in that area to become really good at it.
At university, we talk about depth and breadth ... depth = how deep you wanna drill into one subject area, breadth = how many different topics you wanna cover and there has got to be a decent compromise between the two and the weakness of the programme you described is that it is simply too broad. Too much breadth, not enough depth.
@Devil
ReplyDeleteThanks for your advice! I have tried basic programming on my own last year and it definitely is not something I want to do for a living. I may give it one more try before 2013 ends to be really sure its not suitable for me.
As for the Business Analytics course, I wouldn't want to take the risky gamble and end up losing, with S$30K debt and 4 years wasted.
You mentioned that "many of the technologies for that are usually taught at the graduate level and involve more math" is taught at the graduate level" and this worries me. Did you mean that a Bachelor degree for a job in this field is utterly useless and you have to pay more money for a Masters degree? That's a rather cruel joke for NUS to play on their graduates.
Hello Limpeh, do you think an Ivy League/ Public Ivy degree will significantly increase the chances of landing a good MNC job, based on your experience? I am particularly worried as I remembered my dad once mentioning that almost all his company's new employees were all ivy league/public ivy/oxbridge graduates and that got me quite worried
ReplyDeleteHi there. The short answer is of course an Ivy League/Oxbridge degree is going to boost your chances of getting a good job anywhere, that goes without saying. But if you don't already have such a degree (or if you're in a mediocre university), it's not the end of the world.
DeleteHere's the fascinating thing about Linkedin - we're embarking on a new project right now for my company and I am dealing with a lot of new people for the first time and I usually read their profiles on Linkedin to get a good idea of their backgrounds before engaging with them. Guess what? There are plenty of successful people out there who had crap degrees from crap universities but have gone on to do amazing things in their careers anyway so it's not like you're condemned to working in McDonald's just because you didn't make it to Oxford.
From an employer's POV, I am looking for a number of qualities when I am selecting a candidate for a job. A good degree is just one of many ways to prove yourself and stand out from the crowd - you need to think of other ways to prove to an employer like me that you're better than everyone else out there.
Based on what little you have offered, that's all I can say - if there's anything else that still worries you, please respond and let's talk about it, ok?
Rocky, many people do go on to get a masters degree after their BA/BSc, it's quite common really. It's not like you have to - but it is something that many people do, even those from top universities (Ivy League/Oxbridge) do go on to get masters degrees for a simple reason:
ReplyDeleteWhen you get your first degree, you are v young and have probably not worked at all - you are not quite sure where you are going with your career. Then after working like 5 - 10 years, you know exactly what area of expertise you want to develop, then you go back and get that masters degree at that stage, knowing that it is something that is going to serve you very well. Of course, a masters degree is just one of many options to improve yourself - there are other shorter courses that one can take as well.
But that's a very Singaporean attitude to look at it I'm afraid, that you must always have a piece of paper to prove that you can do something rather than just freaking getting on with it. I have learnt so freaking much in my job and I am always climbing some learning curve - am I learning all this to pass an exam? Hell no, I have a job to do, I'm too freaking busy to bother with paper qualifications and exams. That's why I am answering you at 1:42 am in the morning cos I've been working so freaking hard. So it really depends on what you do with your working life and where your career takes you.
Hi LIFT,
ReplyDeleteI’m a 19 year old girl taking a business diploma in sim(bad idea I know, I regret) after withdrawing from np-nursing last year(it’s a long story) I’ve always had average grades, L1R4 was 18 and even in poly too, just Bs and Cs, sometimes Ds. I guess I just didn’t take academics as serious as the rest in Primary/secondary School? Also, my mum wasn’t like the typical Singaporean mum who forced me to study/go for tuition (In secondary school and when I got my O levels result I felt like she didn’t care) Hence, I didn’t receive any advice with regards to my studies after o levels (I should’ve/could’ve retook the o levels) from my parents; they left me to choose what I wanted, my posting was to MI arts stream but more attracted by the poly life I decided to go for nursing which was a bad choice, not what I wanted. Unfortunately for me, I only came across your blog this year.
Now, taking my studies seriously (I guess? and since its so ex -_- don’t want to waste money) I get As and Bs, maybe it’s just the papers that are set easy lah. I have to agree that it’s a waste of money taking biz diploma/degree. How I got to taking the diploma was because I had a friend studying there who told me about what she was studying, a short 15 month diploma after finishing it, I could continue with a second year biz degree (uol, rmit, etc). Having that thought in mind, I applied (don’t know what I was thinking at the time, perhaps along the line ‘I can haz a degree and then work to provide for my parents’ I’m the only child, you see. Plus, I didn’t want them to worry about me they never needed to anyway.) Right now for sure I am not going to be taking that route, gained more knowledge after reading your posts hahaha Besides, I don’t want to be stuck in SG forever with that biz degree though.
I have interests in Asian cultures and different languages. I am learning Korean right now, planning to learn Japanese and French in the future.
I’m considering these uni choices:
East Asian Studies in UofT (http://www.artsci.utoronto.ca/futurestudents/academics/progs/eastasia)
International Studies in Underwood International College http://uic.yonsei.ac.kr/
Or East Asian Studies in EastAsia International College http://eic.yonsei.ac.kr/contents/main.htm
Both are colleges under Yonsei University in Korea. I’ve shortlisted these two since studying in UofT would be costly.
However, I’m unsure if this diploma will have the universities accept me (hence the regret of quitting np) as it will not be recognized as a high school equivalent? I will take the SATs after completing it, next year in May, but will it be enough as qualification wise? Is there more I could do? I’m scared if I can’t get into uni, I wouldn’t know what to do. Sorry if I sound clueless I’ve made bad choices and I don’t want to make bad choices to my future anymore.
Thank you for taking time to read this and hope to hear from you soon!
Cheers,
Michelle
Hi Michelle, thanks for your comment. Can you answer this vital question please: what kind of job do you want to do when you enter the working world? Right now, that should be your primary consideration. It's not just a question of getting a degree in a subject you're interested in, it should relate to what you want to do when you graduate and start hunting for a job.
DeleteHello LIFT , i hope you remember me.
ReplyDeleteI just want to seek your opinion on this , its pretty urgent.
Do you think maths degree is a mickey mouse degree?
It's an okay degree.
DeleteThe bottom line is that the university matters far more than the degree. I have only heard people use the phrase 'mickey mouse university' and perhaps when they use the phrase 'mickey mouse degree' it means a degree from a crap university at the wrong end of the league table.
Heck you can go to Oxford or Cambridge and do some useless degree but you will still have little problems finding a job.
So really, the question for you is this: where do you intend to do this maths degree? If it is NUS/NTU then you're fine.
Hello LIFT you have been real helpful! Really loving your blog. Thanks for the fast reply.
ReplyDeleteMy only worry about doing NUS maths is that i wont have much job prospects after i graduate because its like strictly teaching? (If i do pure math). Cause my parents talk about how narrow this course can get me and tell me to do accountancy as it is much more practical.
I am thinking of choosing chemical engineering in NUS as its a more specialised degree and i am good in maths and science so this course could be for me. Frankly speaking, i am being practical here by choosing chemical engineering even though you said earlier to other users about not choosing a course for job prospect , i chose chem engi as its related more to maths and science and i can still do teaching even with an engineering degree unlike maths which cant open up my job options.
I ask this becausw its urgent and i am in a dilemma and the application date is closing soon. I am just worried about my future career and this is kinda a big choice to make.
Side questions, my brother told me study business is pretty lame cause they make you know everything but not much depth and you can learn all this outside. Is business degree really that useless? But a good degree with a good class in a reputable uni can land you into the job at least right? : D
OK going to a good university like NUS is most important. But apart from that, yeah it is necessary to choose a) a course that you will be interested in cos there'll be loads of studying and you can't study something you have little interest in and b) it should be relevant to your career choice.
DeleteSo by that token, maths is a respectable degree that will give you plenty of job options (apart from teaching): many investment banks for example love maths graduates for the quant departments.
As for your brother's advice, totally true: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/the-myth-about-business-degrees.html
Thank you lift!
ReplyDeleteHi LIFT, I'm in an almost identical situation as theyoungrocky, currently choosing between industrial and systems engineering and civil engineering. Based on your comments regarding industrial engineering in NUS being too broad, making it a weak degree, do you think that choosing civil engineering over industrial and systems engineering will be a better choice of degree?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't think that it would just come down to the content of the degree that is going to make a huge difference - it is up to you to make sure your CV is strong by engaging in plenty of other activities to prove yourself: internships, sports, foreign languages, team work etc. Nobody is going to give you a job solely based on your degree - we will look at the much bigger picture.
DeleteAlright. I do understand where you're coming from. Also, I know you mentioned that the rankings a of universities are fairly important. I'd like the chance to work overseas in the future if possible. Given that the global ranking of nus is above ntu by a fair bit, will it be better to choose nus over ntu. Or do you think that both uni are pretty much the same in terms of their prestige/how recognised they are globally?
DeleteIt would really depend on your future employer - some employers will google the rankings (well it takes just a few minutes to find that information) but I suspect that most employers will just lump any Singaporean university into the category "others which I don't know anything about - could be good, could be shit, who knows, I can't be bothered". So by that token, it doesn't matter really when it comes to dealing with a foreign employer - you'll be lucky if they have even heard of NUS/NTU in the first place.
DeleteHi LIFT, I'm in an almost identical situation as theyoungrocky, currently choosing between industrial and systems engineering and civil engineering. Based on your comments regarding industrial engineering in NUS being too broad, making it a weak degree, do you think that choosing civil engineering over industrial and systems engineering will be a better choice of degree?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about getting a degree that focuses on specific languages or translation/interpretation then? E.g. bachelors in Korean/Russian/Japanese Language and Lit etc. Or bachelors in translation and interpretation of one or several languages
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about then about degrees specialising in certain languages (e.g. Korean/Japanese etc Language and Literature) or like translation/interpretation of one or several languages?
ReplyDeleteHi Yifei thanks for your question. You have dug up a post from 2013, I still work in banking today. I don't think you're going to like my answer. I imagine that you're someone who has a deep passion for Japanese and/or Korean and want to do a degree in it - I have been in a similar position before and I did French as part of my degree along with spending time in Paris-IV Sorbonne on exchange. The problem is that as a Singaporean (I am guessing from your name that you are Singaporean) you are going to have serious competition in that field from the following:
DeleteA) Korean people who speak English fluently
B) Korean people who speak Chinese (Mandarin) fluently
C) White people from countries like US, UK, Australia who speak Korean fluently
D) Chinese people from China who speak Korean fluently
And then repeat the list above, replace 'Korean' with 'Japanese'.
If you want to work in a field where you are specializing in translation and interpretation, you need to be of mother tongue standard (ie. not advanced, not competent, but mother tongue perfect) in those languages. That's why people who go down this field tend to be totally fluent in just 2 languages. So I have a Korean friend who studied in the UK for a long time, his English is perfect - so you're never going to compete with someone like that who is a native speaker of Korean and has lived a long time in England. To be an interpreter, you need to be oh so perfect in the language. I fell apart totally when I stepped up to be an interpreter in Shenzhen in 2018 spontaneously, thinking, hey I deal with Chinese colleagues all the time, I can be an interpreter (I volunteered, I wasn't paid for it), I excelled in translating Mandarin to English and did a much, much better job that the local interpreters on that front because I have a much richer vocabulary in English to draw upon. But I really, really, really struggled translating from English into Mandarin and one of the event organizers literally jumped on stage, stood next to me and helped me out when I couldn't find the right technical terms (it was at an high tech engineering event for crying out aloud) and at that point I realized, I was waaaaaay out of my depth and I didn't prepare enough to do that kind of interpreting which involved technical jargon. https://limpehft.blogspot.com/2018/05/notes-2-my-nastia-liukin-2012-moment.html?view=sidebar
I hate to say this but you're probably thinking about doing such a degree because you love those languages - I get that, I have a similar passion for French, Spanish and Italian (and I do speak all 3 fluently today). But the question is what the heck are you going to do with such languages - would it get you paid work and would you ever be able to compete with native speakers from Korea/Japan who have studied English to a very high standard? My answer is that you should pursue your interest in these languages of course but always have a plan B. So I am in a position to make good money because I am using my languages in the context of banking, so it is banking + languages. You need something like engineering + languages or some other highly valued skill + languages because languages enough simply isn't enough to help you get work or good grief, you will end up teaching languages and that's probably not what you had in mind to end up as a teacher in a school in Singapore. Let me know your thoughts on this Yifei.