An Interview With 2 Gay Teachers in London & Singapore

As a follow up to my last piece on gay teachers, I am interviewing two gay teachers - these are personal friends of mine and one of them is in Singapore, the other in London. Obviously, I did not get both individuals in the room at the same time given that we're eight time zones apart so the questions were emailed in advanced to my friend in Singapore and the interview was completed via a combination of skype and Facebook, whilst I did speak to my friend in London in person. I am going to avoid revealing any personal details of my Singaporean friend because I don't want his students to start outing him at school as a result of this piece, so I shall just call him "Sing" - short for Singapore.  My British friend Matt has no qualms about being out so he will reveal more personal details in this interview.

Would her sexuality matter in this maths lesson?

Q: Why did you choose teaching as a profession?

Matt: I did two jobs after graduating and none of them really worked out - I guess I was just not quite cut out for the corporate world and I really didn't know what to do with my life at that stage.  I had demanding bosses who would shout at you, it was a high stress environment and I hated it.  I just wanted something stable I could rely on, to pay off my student debts, so I stumbled into teaching and I like the idea of being the adult in charge in the classroom. That would be a far cry from the office where I had the manager yelling at me, "Matt! Where is that report I asked you to prepare! Matt, come here! Matt, do this! Matt, do that now! Hurry up Matt!" That was what attracted me to teaching.

The first school I worked at had a really good environment - it was a very nice school for rich kids, I managed to secure a job there through a family friend and I have heard all kinds of horror stories about teachers who end up teaching in scary schools, in really rough estates and so much of your experience as a teacher depends on the kind of school where you teach. So it was a bit of a muddled path for me to end up where I am today, but I am happy enough. I did history at university and have actually found a job where my degree is directly relevant. That means a lot to me, to be able to teach a subject I am passionate about and I do enjoy teaching.

Teaching offers an escape from the corporate world. 

Sing: After I have completed my A levels, I applied for a few scholarships as I thought I had a good chance of getting a scholarship. The only one I was offered was a teaching scholarship and my parents would have struggled to put me through university without that scholarship. My sister was unemployed at that time after having graduated for a while, so it was a combination of those factors that made me say yes to that scholarship knowing that I would have my university education paid for in full by the government and I would have a job waiting for me at the end of the process. I didn't want to end up like my sister - it was scary to see her unemployed for so long, you know.. Perhaps that's not the best reason to become a teacher, but I am just being honest with you.

Q: Did you know you were gay at the time you decided to become a teacher?

Matt: Sure, I knew since I was about 11 when puberty kicked in. I wasn't interested in the girls at school, just the boys. I started dating properly, having serious relationships when I was at university. It wasn't an issue at all. Why should it be?

What factors must you consider when deciding on a career? 

Sing: Yes of course - but please remember, I was given that career choice around the age of 19 when I had to accept or reject that scholarship. I was a teenager then. I wasn't ready to think about the more complex issues about what it meant to be gay and a teacher in Singapore then, I was simply focusing on getting through NS so I could then go to university. I suppose it was something I should have thought about a lot more - but hindsight is 2020.

Q: Has your sexuality ever posed any problems for you at school?

Matt: No. Why should it? The problems that we face are far more practical. Let me give you an example - there is a teacher in my school who has this bad habit of raising her voice whenever she gets angry. She shouts at the class in quite an undignified way and there must be better ways to control a class than just shouting at the top of your voice. I swear you can hear her scream and shout from the other side of the school.  If I had a child who is highly disruptive and noisy, I would have other ways to calm that child down - allowing yourself to be provoked isn't going to help with the situation. It is very practical issues like being able to control your students that matter in the school environment, rather than anything relating to your personal life. That 'shouting' teacher has been taken aside by the headmaster and is currently receiving very practical help on how to control a class without raising one's voice.

All teachers in the school are expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner, to deliver quality lessons and ensure that the students have a good learning experience - as long as you do that, your sexuality is not relevant to your work in the school, it is your private life. The management at the school are far more concerned about issues like the conduct of the teachers in the classroom - such as in the case of that 'shouting' teacher, or that other teacher who is often late for work, rather than what we do in our personal lives, outside school.

Sing: No, for the simple reason that I don't talk about my personal life at school. The other teachers are aware that I am gay but it's not like I waltz into the staff room talking about what male celebrity I fancy or what kind of boyfriend problems I have. I'm not interested to hear them go on and on about the problems they have with their children and they're not interested in to hear what I have to say about being gay and single. There is a difference between colleagues and friends - just because you work with someone doesn't automatically make them your friend. That was a lesson I learnt during national service when I had to work with some people I really disliked, but still had to maintain a polite working relationship with them as I had to face them everyday. It's the same thing really.

Are you friends with your colleagues? 

Q: Have you ever had any problems from your colleagues who know that you're gay? 

Matt: No. Well, I have had my share of arguments with my colleagues over the years, but my sexuality was never the issue. I used to argue with this maths teacher all the time over the parking spaces in the school car park, but that was because she was a bad driver who often blocked me and that was so inconsiderate. That has nothing to do with my sexuality though... My sexuality has never been a source of conflict at work for me.

Sing: No, surprisingly! I don't think they're that gay-friendly, it's just that they are sensible enough not to stir up any trouble in a school environment. It's all quite cordial, if not a bit formal at times. We're dealing with teachers at the end of the day, you know. Us Singaporeans... we're peace loving, we prefer to avoid conflict.

Both Matt and Sing enjoy cordial relationships with their colleagues. 

Q: Do your students know you're gay?

Matt: No. The topic just doesn't come up in the classroom. No student has ever sat down with me and asked me, "Sir, are you married? Are you single? Are you dating someone?" I just don't have that kind of relationship with my students - I think it is very important as a teacher to come across as quite formal and set the boundaries. That way, the students will respect you and know that you're trying to be not their best friend, but their teacher and there are rules to be followed in the classroom. I have seen teachers who go into the classroom all relaxed and trying to be cool and I don't think that works! Students need boundaries and I can achieve a much better learning environment when I know I am in charge and have established my authority in the classroom. That gives me the luxury of not discussing my personal life with my students - not that they're interested anyway in my personal life.

Yesterday I arrived in a classroom early to set up something on the laptop for the lesson and I listened to a group of my female students chat about what One Direction did at some award ceremony and they were pouring over every single detail as if it was the most important event in their lives. I didn't even attempt to join in that conversation as I couldn't be less interested in One Direction I swear. But that is the situation - my students have their role models and idols they are interested in: the boys are obsessed with footballers and the girls have their singers and actors. My students know more about Harry from One Direction or Wayne Rooney than they do about me despite the fact that I have taught some of them for a few years - but that's just the way it is. I am a teacher and they're not interested in teachers. That's fine... That's the way things were when I was a student myself. So nothing has changed really, has it?

Sing: No. I don't think so. I don't think I have ever had the reason to talk about my personal life at work - I teach at a JC and I think there were a few occasions when the students wanted to know what JC and university I studied at but only because they heard that I was a scholar and they wanted to become scholars themselves. So they were really only interested in information that would be useful and relevant to their quest for a scholarship. Anything about my personal life is just not of interest to them - and you know, that suits me just fine!

Q: Some people have questioned what a gay teacher would do if a student came to them and raised questions pertaining to sex and sexuality - has a student ever come to you for advice on matters of sex and sexuality? Are you prepared and able to handle such a situation? 

Matt: (Laughs) Hell no. Are you joking? Well, that wouldn't happen because of the kind of teacher I am - I am strict, formal and I set boundaries for my students. I clearly define my role as a teacher in this relationship and as a result, they don't see me as someone who can turn to for matters like that. Maybe there are other teachers they can turn to for that kind of thing... but not me. Instead, students will talk to their friends or look stuff up on the internet for answers.

Young people will look for answers on the internet.

Sing: No way. Never. My students come to me for advice on things like what scholarship they should apply for, what university would be the best for certain courses, what kind of careers could they go for if they did this course at university - you know, issues relating to further education. For anything pertaining to sex and sexuality, they are far more likely to go look for answers on the internet. You'll be amazed how much they know about sex anyway thanks to the internet, they're not like when we were in JC all those years ago and we were all so blur... In the absence of sex education and the internet, we had no idea where to begin when it came to sex.

Recently I heard a group of my students making a joke about double penetration in class...  What was I to do? I had to get them to focus on the lesson - of course they weren't suppose to be thinking about that kind of sex at their age. The fact that they were already talking about such sexual acts amongst themselves means that we're dealing with a generation who are growing up exposed to so much sex and porn on the internet. They're not clueless about sex and sexuality - they probably already know way too much from having watched a lot of porn.

There probably needs to be some kind of sex education programme to help this generation make sense of all that information about sex they have picked up from surfing the internet for porn, but that's not going to happen in Singapore. I'm just going to do my job and teach, I'm not paid to deal with that issue of sex education. Where do I even begin? The ministry doesn't want me to talk about sex the students, the parents don't want me to talk about sex to their children, so why the hell would I want to even go near this tricky topic when there's absolutely no incentive for me to do so? It is a minefield that I want to avoid. Please, as if I don't have enough stress as it is at work!

Q: But say if a student does come up to you today with a question about sexuality, like, "Can two women marry and have a child without a man involved?" How would you deal with that?

Matt: It is a tricky one - because you have to try to respect the student's cultural background. On the issue of sex and sexuality, I have some students with very liberal parents and some parents are very religious and conservative - and there's everything in between. If there is a specific question about say the law on gay marriage or gay couples adopting, then I can quite easily supply the accurate information - I am a history teacher after all. I will have no problems telling the students what the law states on civil partnerships which has been around since 2004 and same-sex marriages which has already become law in July this year. Gay couples can already adopt children by law in the UK since 2002 - it is nothing new. If the student wants to indulge in a further discussion about the relative morality of the issue, then I would probably tell the student that it is a topic best discussed at home with his/her parents.

Are gay teachers afraid to talk about sexuality in the classroom?

Sing: I would put on my teacher's hat and just deal with the question as if it was a purely academic debate then. I'm not going to freak out and run out of the classroom the moment a student raises the issue of sexuality. As a teacher, in my lessons, I deal with case studies and examples from all over the world, not just from within Singapore. I would explain simply that in some countries, that would be perfectly legal and in other countries, the law would prohibit it from happening and that in Singapore, the law doesn't allow for it to happen. I would then leave it at that for it would be a perfectly adequate academic treatment of the issue without any moral judgement. I'm a teacher after all - that's what I do all the time with all kinds of topics, I can deal with this, no problem.

Q: So if I may ask you categorically, do any of your students, past or present, even know you're gay?

Matt: Not that I care, but no. That's the simple answer to your question.

Sing: No, but it's not like it has ever been an issue since no one has ever asked me point blank questions on the issue or about my personal life. It's like nobody in the school knows I am Teochew - it's not because I am ashamed of my Teochew roots, it's just that the topic has never come up. I don't feel the need to tell everyone I am gay, the same way I don't feel the need to tell everyone I am of Teochew extraction. 

How much do teachers actually reveal about themselves?

Q: Do you know of other gay teachers?

Matt: Sure, you are bound to encounter them along the way - the NASUWT (teachers' union) has a dedicated LGBT group to take care of the rights and needs of gay teachers. It's like any other industry you know, there are gay architects, gay engineers, gay chefs, gay taxi drivers, gay bankers, gay lifeguards, gay journalists, gay firefighters, gay zookeepers, gay doctors, gay politicians, gay policemen... It's not like I have any real desire to seek out other gay teachers, I do have my gay friends I hang out with and I don't think any of them work within the education sector. Sometimes, it's just nice to get away from work and the people at work, to not have to talk about work and think about work.

Sing: Oh yeah, of course got lah, alamak, what were you expecting? It's so naive the way the discussion on gay teachers in Singapore has been going so far, as if there are no gay teachers in Singapore at the moment and never has been. There is like this unwritten 'don't ask don't tell' policy in the industry. The local Singaporean gay teachers are just like me - we blend in, we do what we're paid to do, we are not like those 'loud and proud' gays who attract a lot of attention to themselves. The exception though, I would say, are those expatriate teachers. The MOE has a humanities programme which involves a lot of white teachers from the UK and America to prepare future scholars from Oxbridge and Ivy League universities. There have been quite a few gay and lesbian white teachers in that programme, even from when I was a student in JC myself. Some of us knew, but most of us didn't care.

Is your teacher gay? I don't know!

To be practical about it, how can the MOE effectively bar gay teachers from becoming teachers? How are they ever going to obtain a list of people I have ever had sexual encounters with? Even I don't keep such a list, this is my private life and if even I don't keep a record of it, then how are they going to find out? We don't live in a police state where the government keeps detailed records on the activities of every single citizen. It's not like East Germany in the communist days lah. Let me give you an example of how typical Singaporean teachers react okay?

Some years back, there was this older, expatriate white teacher in my JC who started sleeping with one of the much younger Chinese teachers. None of our business of course and none of this took place on school premises, of course. The only thing was that they were both married and not to each other. I only heard about it through the students who spotted the the younger female teacher leaving the older white teacher's flat early one morning, where she had obviously spent the night. The white expatriate teacher has children back in England, so his wife regularly flies back to England for a few weeks at the time, leaving him home alone. This went on for a while and the students started gossiping about it - even the teachers started talking about it and noticed what was going on.

It is not in my nature to indulge in that kind of gossiping and I didn't care what those two got up to in their private lives. It got to the point where one of the parents went to talk to the principal about it as the parent thought that the teachers were not discrete about their activities and were setting a bad example for the students. You know what the principal did? The principal went to ask them each a simple question, "is there anything going on between the two of you?" They both answered, "no." So there, just like that. The principal then went back to the parent and explained that teenagers like cooking up stories and gossiping about their teachers, especially if it is about teachers they don't like - they can spread vile rumours and this will all blow over in a few weeks. Sure enough, those two became a lot more discrete and within weeks, people stopped talking about it. That's the way we are in Singapore, we're not confrontational, we much rather sweep things under the carpet and say, "aiyah, 不要乱讲话 lah, don't anyhow talk okay?".

Q: Some people talk about good teachers leaving a great impression on them and influencing them in a positive way, some have even talked about teachers who inspire them to do great things. In this context, do you think a good gay teacher may influence an impressionable student to think differently about homosexuality? Do you think about how you're influencing your students? 

Matt:  I think your question is flawed in many ways. As a teacher, I want to bring out the best in my students and that means identifying each student's talent: every student is different and unique. One student may be good at sports, another may be good at maths and another may be good at public speaking - I am not interested in creating clones of myself. I am good at what I am good at but I do not expect my students to be good at exactly the same things. I do use the lessons to challenge the students, make them think critically and help them learn about the world around them.

A good teacher helps each student realize his full potential - so questions I always ask my students include, "What do you want to do when you grow up? What are your ambitions? What would you like to achieve by the time you're 30? What is your greatest dream in this life? Do you believe you can achieve this dream?" It is then for me to try to do what I can to set them on the right path towards adulthood to help them become what they would like to be - and that is never a clone of myself. I doubt any of my students have become history teachers actually, no...

Sing: The teacher-student relationship is always set in the context of a classroom, the teacher uses the lesson, the subject matter to get the student to think critically about an issue: whether it is using a Shakespeare play or the issue of global warming or advanced calculus, the focus should always be on the subject matter, never the teacher per se. As a teacher, you have to put your ego aside. I have to go into the classroom and tell my students, "today we're going to learn about something really interesting! You are going to love the topic!" Rather than, "hi class, I am so interesting and we're going to talk about me me me!" If a teacher becomes too self-indulgent and starts going on and on about himself or herself, then that's a bad teacher. Stick to the curriculum. You're a teacher - now do your job.

So if I am teaching a class a lesson about global warming, I would have delivered a good lesson if I have inspired the students to think about the consequences of their actions and the impact they may have on the environment around them. That's the goal, the goal is not to get them to like me and want to be like me. That's so vain. If you're that vain and desperate for people to like you, then you shouldn't be a teacher - it is one of the most thankless jobs in the world. At the end of that good lesson on global warming, all I want is the students to take away the useful knowledge on the topic and if they forget about me in the process, that's fine. So I really don't see how a good gay teacher can possibly influence an impressionable student by delivering good lessons... a vain teacher perhaps will focus on himself rather than the subject, but then vain people shouldn't be teachers to begin with. They won't last long in this profession.

Aiyoh. I must tell you about this ex-teacher I used to work with - Tina used to get so upset if the students didn't like her and I had to remind her that to be a good teacher, you must do things that are unpopular with the students, such as making them stay back to do remedial classes when they need extra help or giving them extra homework or tests to make sure they study. I am not a popular teacher, but I am a good one. Tina couldn't get that into her head - somehow, she craved the approval of her students. She gave up teaching eventually and tried a new career as a tourist guide. Different industry, same problem - she would call me up if a tour group didn't like her and I had to ask her, "yes but did they enjoy Sentosa? Did you get them to eat durian? Did they go to the zoo? Did they have a good time in Singapore? You're a tour guide, as long as they enjoyed their time in Singapore, you've done a good job. They don't have to like you." She doesn't get it - she's just so insecure that she gets upset when people don't like her.

"The tourists loved the Botanic Gardens but they didn't like me!"

Q: I just have to ask this question. How well do you know your students? I always get the impression that because teachers have so many students, they can barely remember the names of the students. A teacher can have hundreds of students a year, but a student only has a handful of teachers a year. So students obviously have a greater impression of their teachers, than the other way around. Is that true?

Matt: Yeah, pretty much so I'm afraid. Two kinds of students stand out - those who are brilliant and the troublemakers. The brilliant ones are smart, they pay attention in class, they give the best answers and you can't help but notice them when they impress you with the quality of their work. As for the troublemakers, you remember them for all the wrong reasons. But then there's everyone else, the ones who are quite bland and just fade into the background and they're not that brilliant but they don't cause any trouble either. They are the ones I can struggle to remember. I would say that usually within a few weeks, I can remember the names of 80 to 90% of the students. Schools should make students wear name tags - it'll make my life a lot easier, especially at the beginning of the school year.

Sing: I would never admit this openly, but sometimes even after several months, my mind can just go blank when I look at a student and I simply cannot remember his or her name. Or worse, I would call out the wrong name and that's embarrassing. Like whoops, salah, sorry... Also, students sometimes remember me years after I have taught them and I ran into this former student the other day in the supermarket, she remembered me but I just couldn't remember her name. I felt bad. With so many students to deal with, we actually have a very shallow impression of our students really - the interaction is really just limited to the curriculum. I actually know very little about my students beyond their strengths and weaknesses in the subject matter, not that I am interested. I do my job and that's it. Everything else, mm si wa ye tai jee, wa mai kaypoh. ("it's none of my business, I don't want to be a busy body.")

Q: So what do you think about people who think that gay teachers like you shouldn't be teaching as you may be a bad influence on the students? 

Matt: They are such morons. Such total idiot I swear. Why would I be possibly leading their children astray just because I'm gay? Do they think I am going to tell their kids to try gay sex or go experiment with drugs or something stupid like that? Some people just assume the very worst of gay people and they are basing their judgments on these ridiculous assumptions. They have no idea what the hell they're talking about, they don't understand the teaching profession and they don't understand their role as parents - they're total morons. Children don't become gay just because they learn that someone they know is gay - you can't catch it like a cold, it is not an infectious disease. You don't become gay just because you have a neighbour or cousin who is gay. It is not contagious!

As for all the morons who claim that "oh the science is inconclusive, we don't know if it is nature or nurture yet" - I say, bullshit. These morons are such bloody idiots, someone please save them from their own stupidity. If they don't know enough about the topic, they should just shut the hell up and look at what is happening in the schools up and down the country where loads of gay teachers have been working for decades, doing a very good job.

We are lucky in the UK because we have a sensible government who enshrined gay rights in the law, so gay people are indeed protected from the bigory and ignorance of those morons who don't have a clue what the hell they are talking about but want to have a say on the issue. Thank goodness our government protects us from such morons in our society. So these morons can say what they want - the law is on our side. By that token, I feel sorry for gay teachers in places like Singapore or the Middle East where they don't have the law on their side. I imagine that they must have to keep a very low profile whilst at work - that can't be nice for them.

Sing: Aiyah, this is Singapore lah, what do you expect? It's not like in the West, we've got a long way to go. There are so many ignorant people in Singapore who are so misinformed.  People will talk a lot of bullshit all the time about gay teachers, some homophobic bigots will write some pieces on the internet - people may talk about it on social media and then forget about it again. At least there's no witch hunt to try to catch gay teachers - that's the kind of extreme reaction we've not seen yet in Singapore, fortunately. Things could be far worse... but things could be better.

Maybe I should go and work somewhere like Australia, Canada or the UK as a teacher, where I don't have to put up with all this. Let me finish serving my bond first, then we'll see - I am very tempted you know? I may go work abroad as a teacher, or leave teaching altogether... I am exploring my options, but in the meantime, I am happy enough where I am as things are okay for me here lah.  I'm counting my blessings for now, but I'm also thinking about my future.

Q: Have you any advice for gay people who are considering teaching as a career?

Matt: The advice I give gay people would be the same advice I would give anyone gay or straight: think carefully if this is the right career choice for you as you will need to spend a lot of time training to be a teacher before you start working. You don't want to waste all that time and money only to discover that you don't like teaching. Try to get some experience, maybe as a teaching assistant, to be in a school environment and then you can decide if you really want to do this. Try to gain a wide range of work experiences in different industry before making your choice.

Sing: Don't worry too much about the gay thing lah, there have always been gay teachers around in Singapore. Otto Fong is an exception because he chose to be out of the closet, but others like me just get on with my work and my sexuality has never been an issue as long as I am reasonably discrete. It's no big deal, really. I've not had any trouble, but that's mostly because I've done my job well as a teacher and that is what it boils down to.

There are far more important things to worry about - for me, I have always wondered 'what if', like what if I didn't take that teaching scholarship? I have a friend from JC who didn't get a scholarship - he went to NUS and joined a really good company upon graduation. They're now sending him all over the world, I see his Facebook updates and he's popping up in Brazil, South Africa, Sweden, South Korea, Hungary, New Zealand, Kuwait, Mauritius, Kazakhstan, Peru.. So many exotic places! I am jealous you know, of course I am lah, but I can't allow myself to think about things like that. There are good things about teaching as well and I may not teach for the rest of my life - who knows? I am still young.

What if Sing had done a different job instead of teaching?

Thank you very much for talking to me and sharing your thoughts on the issue. I hope my article featuring these interviews will throw some light on the issue of gay teachers who are out there working, because you guys exist, you're waking up early every morning, going to school to work hard. It pisses me off that sometimes people talk about you as if you don't exist, so I appreciate the opportunity to share your stories on my blog. Thanks again - I really enjoyed talking to you guys and learning about your experiences. 

As usual, if you have any comments, you know the drill - leave a comment below, thanks for reading.