Me So Ornery wrote:
During my university days in UK, I dated a couple of English guys. On the whole, my experience was that any positive or negative initial impressions/ideas of dating someone different, was quickly gone within a matter of weeks. When we are in such close proximity, you like each other for who they really are. Whether they are white/black/blue/handsome, if they haven't got a good personality, they cease to be attractive in a very short time.
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| What does it take to fall in love? |
Socially, I found Singaporeans (while in UK and in Singapore when they came back with me on holiday) quick to call me as an SPG, even though I don't exclusively or intentionally date anyone of any particular race. Yes I got the usual - angmoh got big dick, angmoh is rich (erm, one was a student and one was a builder, definitely not rich). I/He got the rude stares on the train and streets in Singapore, even though we looked as normal as could be in Singapore - t shirt, berms, flipflops.
To share a horror Singapore date: once, I suggested a quiet pasta place for dinner (price point for mains, $10-$15) on a first date. Guy (early 30s, manager or senior manager position) decided to go on and on about how he usually eats at hawker centres and this is considered very expensive. Also how he would never pay for Starbucks and is fine with 70 cents coffee. On a first date?? Really?? I quickly got the point that he thought I was materialistic and would eat frequently at non-$2.50 places. (Well, I don't see what was quite wrong with that. I eat at hawker centres and at mid-range places, nearly all of the time.) Later, it transpired that his mother was paying for his car, and that his ex-girlfriend did everything for him including his laundry. When the bill came, he hesitated and looked at me, so I offered to pick up the bill. He said no let's split it, and proceeded to collect the exact amount up to the cent from me. Needless to say, that never went beyond that one date. This really stood out because he was everything wrong in a Singaporean guy, rolled into one and taken to the extreme.
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| I like Japanese food - does that make me materialistic? |
All in all, I say love and happiness comes in all shapes and sizes, it's senseless to insist that having the same skin colour, or having grown up in the same culture equates to any kind of assurance that there will be less differences.
Peanut wrote:
This blog post and MSO's comment really resonate with me... I did marry an American and live in NYC and all. I have dated local guys in the past, but it didn't work out. The local guys I dated tended to be immature, dependent, unchivalrous (you don't have to be an MCP to be chivalrous! Carrying bags etc is just what a gentleman does!) and in general rather uninspiring. I felt like their mothers... I had to take care of them instead of the other way around. Who wants to marry a guy that can't take care of himself, let alone run a household? Also, I really don't want to constantly feel like the stupid nagging wench.
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| Will you date a man who can't cook? |
Local men lament about how we womenfolk love gweilos but really, it's got nothing to do with their foreignness per se. I can’t generalize, but the ones I met (in Singapore) tended to have their act together and are more intellectually interesting. I guess the bums are still in their home country. Do a blind test like the Pepsi-Coke one and I bet I’d pick the Ang Moh cup every time.
To add to your horror story, this guy I dated liked to bring his face to his food and slurp noisily. When I told him it was rude and unsightly, he called me shallow. Then one day we went to a French restaurant. Needless to say, he made a fool of himself. He ate the bread on the side like a peanut butter sandwich and spilled soup everywhere because he was trying to eat it from halfway across the table. When I called it quits, I said he could take his stuff back. He took this literally and even took back his gifts (I didn’t because I’m not cheap). He took back a lighter though he didn't smoke and as he was walking out the door loaded with stuff (including the Dreamcast we split the cost for), he turned around for the coup de grace, "How about the mousepad you are using?" Yes, he wanted the mousepad back too. He wasn’t being spiteful, he was just clueless.
To add to your horror story, this guy I dated liked to bring his face to his food and slurp noisily. When I told him it was rude and unsightly, he called me shallow. Then one day we went to a French restaurant. Needless to say, he made a fool of himself. He ate the bread on the side like a peanut butter sandwich and spilled soup everywhere because he was trying to eat it from halfway across the table. When I called it quits, I said he could take his stuff back. He took this literally and even took back his gifts (I didn’t because I’m not cheap). He took back a lighter though he didn't smoke and as he was walking out the door loaded with stuff (including the Dreamcast we split the cost for), he turned around for the coup de grace, "How about the mousepad you are using?" Yes, he wanted the mousepad back too. He wasn’t being spiteful, he was just clueless.
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| Yes she had a disaster in the French restaurant... |
Many, not all, Singaporean men are like that. They aren't bad, but tend to lack many of the qualities at least I find desirable. There is something about our country that seems to breed them this way. It takes real effort to break out of the mold. Those that go abroad for their degrees learn a little bit of independence. I'm very happy that Singaporeans are traveling more. They need to broaden their horizons. Now they just need to LIVE abroad more, to have their own apartment, wash their own clothes, freeze at the bus stop in winter and wilt in the summer heat as they struggle to install their air-conditioning unit.
A close guy family member is 32 and still lives with his mother. She pays all the household bills, the maids do all the cleaning, and though he earns a very healthy $6K a month, he spends it all on garbage (expensive restaurants, etc) and doesn't save a cent. Most months he's broke by the 3rd week and spends the last week eating at home since that is paid for.
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| Are Singaporean men just bad with money? |
I asked his mom why she didn’t kick him out. She said, "Rent is expensive in Singapore…" This is true, but as an uncle said, "he should untangle himself from his mother's apron and rent his own place, date women and bring them to his own home, party all night and end up faceplanting.. do all the other stupid things that young people do. Apartments expensive? Have roomies!" The rule of thumb for rent is no more than 35% of your income. Surely he can get a room with 25% of his income ($1.5K), and don't tell me he can't help with household expenses or give his mom an allowance. The expensive thing is just an excuse.
How about those that don't make $6K? Get a room for less. Contribute to the household. Save. There are a million ways you can be more independent, more man and less mama's boy. Finances aside, think about being better in other areas. Act like a gentleman, learn new things to feed your intellect, work out so you have a healthy body. Asian men also tend to lack confidence, so work on that too!
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| What is it about white guys then? |
Back to Limpeh now....
I must say, these two women made me roll on the floor with laughter because I loved their candour! I do think that there is an element of Singaporean men expecting some 'reward' from Singaporean women for having served NS and protected the womenfolk of Singapore - is it right that Singaporean women take this for granted? I'll let you guys think about that one. But should Singaporean women express their thanks by always marrying local men? I don't think so.
I do observe some similarities in both of these women's experiences. Shallow, stingy, over-reliant on their mothers and bad with money. I wonder if their experiences reflect the general Singaporean male adult population? Have these two women merely been really unlucky to have dated these assholes, or are their experiences rather typical?
I also wonder if all these unattractive traits are due to the fact that most Singaporean men do live with their parents until they get married? So I want to ask my readers in Malaysia and other bigger Asian countries where people do regularly move away from their parents' for further education and employment - are your local menfolk anything like the Singaporean men the two women above have described? Would Malaysian men put their Singaporean counterparts to shame, simply because they have moved from Kedah or Sarawak to Kuala Lumpur, thus growing up by cutting those apron strings? Is this a white vs Asian issue - or is it simply a small city state (Singapore, Hong Kong, Macau) vs big country (Malaysia, UK, South Korea) situation?
Also, I'd like to hear from Singaporean men! What do you think of the situation? Do these women have a point? Do you have a few horror stories of your own to share? Come on, spill the beans, I am all ears. Well you know me, I believe that anyone should be able to date anyone they like regardless of ethnicity, religion or nationality and the rest of us should just mind our own business. So! Over to you - share you stories in the comments section below. Thank you!!!
PS. And for the record, I do not conform to any of those Singaporean stereotypes - then again, I have spent nearly half my life in the Middle East and Europe ... Halfway around the world from my parents in Ang Mo Kio.
Update: Part 2 is ready http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/the-truth-about-men-in-singapore-part-2.html
PS. And for the record, I do not conform to any of those Singaporean stereotypes - then again, I have spent nearly half my life in the Middle East and Europe ... Halfway around the world from my parents in Ang Mo Kio.
Update: Part 2 is ready http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/the-truth-about-men-in-singapore-part-2.html
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| Do you know what Singaporean women want? |
Shucks, reading this has suddenly made me very self-conscious. I'm still a university student and while I'm not living with my parents right now (studying overseas after all), I can probably envision myself staying with them for the near future. I think the part about staying with your parents really inhibits the development of independence. But then again, females probably face the same issues here and we haven't heard from males about their point of view!
ReplyDeleteWell, I am glad you are reading the comments of these women so you are aware of the issues that matter and what pitfalls to avoid. :)
DeleteHi LIFT,
ReplyDeleteExceeded 4,096 characters again, so here's my 2 part comment. Part 1 as follow.
I have a similar experience to "Me So Ornery" -- On our first date, JN kept commenting about our dining location choice even though I only ordered a salad buffet at Sizzler which cost less than SGD$20! (Around SGD$12 + service charge + tax, if I remember it correctly.) Since I have met nice but poor guys before and I am not expecting my future-spouse to be financially superior to me, at the end of the meal, I took out my credit card and said, "It's my treat." He then commented on my Platinum card, something like, "Wah, Platinum card some more, you earn a lot of money hor!" I had to reassure him that it was because of my previous profession (IT in banking/finance) and that my new career (nursing) will not pay so much. That said, at least he had the saving grace of rejecting my credit card and paid for both our meals in cash. I offered to go-dutch, he declined, so I offered to treat him the next round -- i.e. we take turns to pay. [Don't say I never give Singaporean men chance hor!] The breaking point came when he was unable to disagree without being disagreeable.
http://winkingdoll.blogspot.ca/2010/08/facebook-exchange-what-it-means-to.html
Singaporean men know that they are looked upon as "good catch" by the many impoverished females from the neighbouring countries looking at marriage as a "transaction" ["You marry me out of poverty, I be your kua-kua Wash, Iron, Fuck, Etc."]. It is no surprise then that they assume that women who go for foreign (i.e. often ang-moh) men do it as a ticket to emigrate out of Singapore [see Glenn's comment on 12 September 2012 04:56 in "Love & Xenophobia in Singapore"]. IMHO, that is probably misrepresentation of reality. Yes, there are probably a few SPGs who marry for that visa out of Singapore, but most of the Singaporean women (whom I know personally) who marry non-Singaporean men do not need a man to get them the emigration papers. Most are high-achievers in their own right and would have no problem meeting the host country's immigration points system on their own. IMHO, they ended up marrying foreign men because they are shunned by the typical Singaporean men due the Singaporean male's own inferiority complex and/or need to feel superior.
Add to that mainstream media also repeats one old man's arcane idea's of gender roles and social "norms". E.g. The concept that "man must marry down, and woman must marry up" (resulting in the need to compare income with the lady they date, and feeling inferior if the lady makes more).
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/09/lee-kuan-yews-below-the-the-belt-answer/
End of part 1.
Part 2 of comment.
ReplyDeleteAs for Peanut's example of a man who lives off his parent(s), I have heard of such cases from friends first-hand. That said, a man who does not contribute a single cent to his parents is not the norm amongst my generation (those born in the 70's or earlier) -- I don't know about those born in the 80's or later.
Given the 重男轻女 (patriarchal) mindset prevalent amongst our parents' generation (those aged 70's or older), it is not surprising to have an elderly woman serving her darling adult-son from head-to-toe. I mention elderly WOMAN specifically because I noted that it is often the stay-at-home housewife mother who spoils the adult-son, not the father. Afterall, only the male offspring will "carry the family name" ［传宗接代］, and I guess that the son upon-birth brought the mother some stature in the extended family, and relieving her of being "infilial" [不孝有三 无后为大]. I have seen such pampering within my own family. It is always the 2 older girls who would have to cover any household chores but never the boys. It is also always the mother demanding that the sisters have to "help" their brothers succeed in life, but never the other way around. I rebelled against such discrimination since young, making me a black sheep in my mother's eyes. However, if you're a male and most of your male friends are treated the same way, it would not be surprising if you don't think about this discrimination against your sisters (and females in general), and probably come to take it for granted that "females exist to serve the males". For females growing up in such families, what a breath of fresh air to be wooed by a man (ang-moh or otherwise) who would cook, clean and/or serve you from head-to-toe just to win your heart.
Times are a-changing. I have met PRCs who would cook, clean and/or serve the female of their desire from head-to-toe because of the intense competition for female affection. I have also met more independent Singaporean men (often born from the late 70's onwards) -- they had to be more independent because their mothers worked full-time jobs. I have also met Singaporean men who were not so pampered by their mothers because there is no female sibling to push all the chores to. So there is hope yet for the typical Singaporean man.
> Would Malaysian men put their Singaporean counterparts to shame, simply because they have moved from Kedah or Sarawak to Kuala Lumpur, thus growing up by cutting those apron strings?
IMHO, based on my observation comparing the typical "stay-in-Singapore-their-whole-life" man vs the typical "travel-away-from-hometown" Malaysian man, the short answer is "yes". However, I have to highlight that you are not making a fair comparison here. If you compare the "stay-in-Singapore-their-whole-life" man vs "stay-in-their-hometown-their-whole-life" Malaysian man, then my guess is that there would be no significant difference. Even here in Canada, there exists the "never cut apron strings" male ang-mohs, who of course have dismal dating score.
That is, the secret ingredient to improving a man's attractiveness is for him to cut the apron strings and come out as his own man. Which is another reason why, IMHO, the PAP policy insisting that one must be 35 or older to purchase one's own HDB as a single citizen is short-sighted to say the least. You see, the typical thrifty Singaporean man will see renting as throwing one's hard-earned money away, preferring therefore to sacrifice some freedom (by living under his parents' roof) instead.
Cheers, WD.
Thanks once again WD. I will definitely be doing a part 2 to this post given how popular it is and I will be using some of your stories! And yes, my dad moved from a v small town in Malaysia to Singapore at the age of 12 to study at Chinese High Sch - so I guess that was part of the attraction for my mum, to marry an independent man who wasn't dependent on his parents for everything.
DeleteI found the stories of the two readers really amusing. In my view, it is quite true with Singaporean males that because they do not stay away from their parents, they are not independent. My wife's uncle is just like that: stays with his brother's family with his elderly mother, and only spends money on himself. Still pretty childlike for a guy in past his mid-30s.
ReplyDeleteMy wife had dated Singaporean guys with all the symptoms the two reader mentioned. I recall did having a few of those myself, but am glad I broke out of my shelf by the time I starting courting my wife.
All in all, the two readers do have a point. Although one must consider that those who leave their homeland to work elsewhere tend to be adverturous, with marketable skills, and are goal oriented.
Right! Let's also bear in mind the fact that expatriates (not just white guys, but Malaysians, Thais, Indonesians, Vietnamese, PRCs) in Singapore are a long way away from their parents and families - so by default, this filter creates a better class of men to date, men who do cook their own meals, do their own laundry, know what it is like to have to pay utility bills and pick up after themselves.
DeleteHaving said that, to be fair - not all Singaporean men are like that. I have a good friend who lives with his mum (his dad has passed on) and he genuinely takes such good care of her - he takes her to nice restaurants, takes her on holidays abroad, buys her nice gifts and he couldn't be a better son. And in return, she is a great mum as well and she is not smothering him but has a mutually respectful adult relationship with him. He's got a great job, earning great money and very independent indeed despite living with his mum. Oh and BTW, he's gay so ladies this guy is not for you.
What is laughable is the way so many Singaporean men use the excuse of "taking care of their parents" to continue living at home with their parents - but in reality, who is taking care of whom?
Omigosh! Me So Ornery's story is sooo similiar to mine that I almost thought we had the good fortune of dating the same guy! My horror date went on to make several comments about my height ("Wah why you so tall?" ~ I'm only 1.68m..I hardly consider that tall), my laughter ("Do you always laugh so loud?") and my suggestion of the venue, which was @ SAM ("Wah why so atas?") And on top of that, he kept answering calls throughout the date. I suggested to him that we could continue this on another day, out of politeness, to which he replied smugly, "Aiyoh this is nothing..I get 10x as many calls on my busiest days", which missed the point completely.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree that the local guys who studied abroad are way more independent than those who have stayed in SG all their lives. An acquaintance shared that he washes his clothes by hand when his parents are away...all coz he doesn't know how to operate a washing machine..cue facepalm. I also find the constant having to report your movements to your significant other behaviour baffling.
I agree with Peanut that local guys should "think about being better in other areas". An ex-colleague laments about his ever-increasing weight gain, but whinges that walking a short distance from Paragon to Cineleisure is far. Another has a sour grapes mentality towards trying anything new - Sample comment: "Huh why go learn salsa? It's not like you are going to be a dancer." I am not saying that these guys are devoid of kindness and niceness, but the above behaviours can be quite a turn off.
I find Caucasian men tend to be more engaging conversationalists, being able to listen more and even banter, as opposed to local guys who tend to give monosyllabic answers to even open-ended questions such as "Wow you've been to Scotland! Do tell me about your favourite place." To which the local guy would reply "Can't remember liow", as compared to the Caucasian guy who would go on and on about the people, the landscape and the food for instance. And yes, they "opened doors for me" and "went out of their way to make me happy". I'm not saying I need to be treated like a princess all the time, but such gestures are still sweet and do make a difference.
Now I can't wait to hear what me fellow SG sistas have to share on this topic. :D
Hiya Jen, you're definitely making part 2 of this article with your story, thanks!
DeleteI have a question though, not just for you but for all the ladies with horror stories of having dated these losers - don't you get to know the guy a bit better before agreeing to go out on a date with him? Surely you should be able to smell the bullshit in the initial "getting to know you phase" before agreeing to date him? Or are these blind dates set up by your friends, "hey you should go out with my friend, I think you'll really like him"?
I would've assumed that these weren't blind dates and you did know a bit about the guy before agreeing to go out with him ... no?
Hiya LIFT, haha, glad to give you more material for your very insightful and often hilarious stories..:)
DeleteAnd yes, it was a blind date set up by my friend. If I had met him prior to this, I would most certainly have placed him in the "friend" zone. I shared the story also to shoot down those who would say that I never give local guys a chance and that I do not have an open mind etc.
I agree with WD that the patriarchal mindset does play a part in resulting in local guys expecting their spouses to be able to cook & clean etc. I regularly observe elderly ladies hobbling to fetch food for their husbands and sons @ hawker centres while the men just sit back and play with their phones for instance. No surprises then that these boys grow up thinking that it's the norm for the ladies to serve them. However, I also have to say that I have seen younger guys these days acting like absolute gentlemen to their girlfriends and holding their handbags as well (something that I would gladly hold myself..haha).
Hi Jen, thank you again! I really enjoy blogging because of the interaction I have with readers like you :)
DeleteHave a read of Puppet's comment below (as well as my reply to him) and let me know what you think - I am certain he is a male Singaporean (though there is no info on Puppet's profile to verify that).
You make me worry about my nephew though - he is one of those local guys who has so many women doing everything for him and he never lifts a finger: his mother, his aunt, his grandmother, his maid - that's 4 women who do everything for him whilst he sits back and plays with his iPad. I remember once he snatched the phone out of my sister's hand whilst she was showing me something and I was like, "how dare you? You give that phone back right now and apologize!" and my sister was like, "oh never mind lah, it's no big deal." And I'm like, whadaya mean - if he grows up treating others like that, you're creating a selfish monster out of him.
But I am just the uncle, so I don't get a say.
Sorry, I just remembered, my nephew has 2 grandmothers - so that's 5 women, not 4, who do everything for him whilst he NEVER lifts a finger. WTF.
DeleteAbout the 5 women situation, that is tricky to tackle, ESP when family is concerned. One way I can think of is introducing adult guy friends who are lovely gentlemen to him, like your gay friend for instance, to balance out whatever perceptions he may have of women at present.
DeleteWith regards to Puppet's comments, firstly, your reply to him really made me chuckle. LOLs aside, Puppet is somewhat representative of the local guys here. I'm also of your opinion that dates are meant to be FUN and c'mon! It's only just the first date; who honestly already starts thinking of marriage?!? From conversations with my friends, I have learnt that they view dates as a way of getting to know the guy better, but the guy strangely thinks this automatically means that they are interested in him. The ladies are also of the opinion that it is perfectly ok to ask the guys out these days, as opposed to waiting around forever. Some local guys, like the aforementioned guy who can't operate the washing machine, find this to be too bold. On the other hand, when I asked him why he hasn't asked the girl he fancies out for a date, he would reply "Don't need la, can tell she's not interested" even BEFORE asking her. With guys like this, you can't exactly blame the ladies for making the first move.
And for the record, I am perfectly capable of doing chores as we do not have a maid @ home. As you have rightly pointed out, it is not expecting the guy to do every single thing around the house and rather more of being able to pull his own weight.
Puppet's comments on spending habits also made me think of my ex-colleague and his wife then; they didn't share common interests such as going to the movies together (makes me wonder what they did on dates as watching movies has got to be the #1 activity couples here do) and similar viewpoints on important matters such as having kids (he wanted kids, she wanted to wait). It's strange that such topics were not touched on before marriage.
I was young and stupid... the guy was 'good on paper'. You know, it's like when you watch those infomercials... they say you can get this gizmo that does everything and your laundry too, for only 3 easy payments of $19.99! And if you call now you get free 6-pack rock hard abs! Those things sound good but invariably become white elephants.
DeleteBut in the end your true colors always emerge. Book-smarts cannot compensate for EQ, confidence and decisiveness. BTW, the mousepad guy ended up getting a degree from the best university in America... but he is still single and clueless and he hasn't had a girlfriend since I dated him over 10 years ago when I was 18 (or so). He figured that he would make lots of money to get a girl, but he lacks and confidence and assertiveness to be in finance or consulting, which he thought could help him achieve that.
Aiyo, cannot make it lah. Anyway, I learned over time and made better choices with men. Unfortunately that mean more and more 'overseas' choices... at first American-born chinese guys, then the angmohs.
I would like to add to those that would claim I am a money grubber or green-card pursuer that though both my husband and I have professional jobs, I earn more than he does. He is a university professor and I work in strategy consulting. And I earn less here than I did in Singapore due to the higher tax structure here. So much for more money or jobs in America.
Well, think about it Peanut - as students in Singapore, we were made to study so hard and learn so much academically for our future, but what about love? It's just as complex and confusing - but we are supposed to somehow figure it out through trial and error?
DeleteThe difference between our generation and our parents' generation is that of expectations. Our parents probably had much lower expectations and a much greater sense of duty to do the right thing - whilst we grew up watching romantic movies and have a much clearer idea of what we want out of a relationship, love and what kind of partner we want. Nothing wrong with that because the higher your expectations, the higher your standards and the less willing you will be to compromise - and if that all pans out, you will end up happier in the long run.
Having low standards and settling for less may mean that you get hitched, married and have kids - but would you be happier? No. Because you have lowered your standards.
So there you go - Singaporean women have raised the bar and Singaporean men are unhappy about that.
That's a fair point... but have we raised it to unreasonable standards? Maybe we have raised it a little bit, but that doesn't change the fact that the abovementioned men really should grow up. It's not too much to ask for men to be a little bit more independent and thoughtful/ considerate... at the very least able to hold a decent conversation? Clearly you are unlike the men we are talking about, so you know what it feels like to transcend that stereotype... and you are better off, right? I think so! So even if we lower the bar... we shouldn't lower it too much. Or we would be dating orang utans (who ironically have ang moh).
DeleteGenerations are different... Yea, our parents and grandparents did not watch The Notebook, but there is something about 'if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with'. They still managed to cultivate deep companionship. Plus, were those generations as dependent as ours? Nah. It was the opposite, they had to work very hard to eke out a living. things weren't handed to them on a plate (served by domestic helpers paid for by parents).
In the older generation, parents expected their children to look after them in their old age. The generation after that, the parents were happy enough if the children could look after themselves. The generation after that one, the parents started saving and planning so that when they passed away, their children would inherit a nice sum of money and be taken care of. How things have changed.
We need to change the perception that winning in studies means winning in life. It is so much more than that. Being academically-achieved but not being a critical thinker, being smart but socially inept, being rich but miserly... :-\ bloof.
Anyway, thanks for the feature and for the great responses and insights. This is a lot of fun. I hope you don't get so popular that you can't respond to individual comments anymore!
I don't think we've raised it to an unreasonable standard - that would be assuming that the bar is set at the same height for everyone and we're all after the same things. Yes we expect more but we are expecting different things and this general increase in expectations would make it harder to find a soul mate to settle down with - but isn't it worth it in the end when you do meet someone who DOES meet your high standards, rather than doing what our parents did - meeting someone who "will do" because your standards are so v low and then get busy making babies?
DeleteHahahaha, I don't think I'll become a mega-blogger like Xiaxue, I don't have the same kind of commercial appeal as she does. Like many bloggers, I write for the love of writing and the fact that I have the privilege of interacting with my readers like you, it's just fantastic. I thank you once again for gracing my blog and sharing your stories. :)
1. I don't think it's fair to be so critical of men who are unable or unwilling to do household chores. If it is acceptable for a woman to expect men to do the chores, then why should it be unacceptable for a man to expect a woman to do the chores? A women who hates / cannot do chores would prefer a man who will do them; vice versa for a man who hates / cannot do chores. And neither should be criticised for their preference.
ReplyDelete2. While that guy shouldn't have went "on and on about how he usually eats at hawker centres..." on a first date, I think his concern that his potential spouse is materialistic is valid. Women nowadays work and have their own income, but the bills are often paid by the men. If a man's girlfriend has a habit of spending excessively, then he should be concerned since he'll likely be paying for that if they get married.
For example, my father often complains about how my mother incur hefty phone bills for her long-winded conversations and huge credit card bills for clothes and shoes (which she hardly wears).
Aha! Finally a man! Or at least I think this is written by a man. Allow me to respond as a fellow man.
Delete1. What women are after is an EQUAL status when it comes to household chores - thus they are looking for a man who is willing to pull his weight in the house, rather than expect his wife to clean up after him whilst he watches football and drinks beer. You are accusing the women here of expecting the men to do everything from them which couldn't be further from the truth - they are after EQUALITY without expecting to be put on a pedestal. For any kind of domestic arrangement to work, really both partners need to be able to pull their weight when it comes to domestic chores - unless you can afford to hire servants to do your chores for you. So please, don't be too quick to judge women who expect their men to know how to cook and do laundry. You've definitely jumped to the wrong conclusion on that one.
2. I think you've missed the whole purpose of a date - gosh, you've just confirmed that romance is well and truly DEAD in Singapore. Yes you can find the tombstone for romance in the Bukit Brown cemetery. Like, are you single for crying out aloud?
Dates are meant to be FUN, you should be ENJOYING YOURSELF on dates and if that means spending more than $10 on a date, so be it. (Cue "hey big spender!!") It is also silly to treat dating (esp the first date) as a spouse-hunting exercise, rather than just a fun event to go out with someone whom you think is attractive and have a good time. Gosh, what kind of dates have you had?
Whilst there is a balance to be struck in terms of expensive gifts and how much money one spends on a date, I think that if you are busy counting every cent you're spending on a date, then you're more interested in your money than the person you're with - and that's no basis for any kind of date or friendship. Good grief, I take my friends out and treat them regularly without counting the money as long as I know I can afford it and we have a good time - and these are just my friends! And you wonder why Singaporean think Singaporean men are stingy whilst Angmohs are generous.
3. Your parents. I think your mum needs to go to the phone shop and switch her talk plan if she is incurring hefty phone bills - I am sure she is on the wrong talk plan and you can help her find a better talk plan.
Without knowing your domestic situation, I don't want to pass any judgement on your parents - the point is that the onus is on the individual to check that they are getting what they are getting before committing themselves - that applies to mobile phone contracts as much as marriage. It seems like your mum is not only on the wrong talk plan, but she has not married the right man who would be compatible with her spending habits. Likewise, if your dad was expecting a wife who was careful with money - well, clearly he didn't marry the right woman.
Yes you should get to know the person you're dating well before taking it to the next step and if you are a Singaporean man with limited financial resources, then you should find a woman who has very, very low expectations on that front. At the end of the day, I just see all this (your parents' story + the story of all these other women here) as a mismatch of expectations. And if Singaporean women cannot find Singaporean men who meet their high expectations - whose fault is it? Society seems too ready to blame the women, but I say, it is time to blame the men as well.
Love your response! I like point 2 -- Romance truly is dead. I complained about this once to a local guy I was dating when I was in my teens, and his response was to put candles all over the apartment (carpeted). My mother came home and freaked out because she was sure the house was going to burn down.
DeleteWell, i guess the idea of seeing all your possessions go up in flames is kind of romantic and liberating... like in Fight Club, except without Brad Pitt. Wait, Brad Pitt was the best part. Darn.
Another point I note about Singaporean men is that they are hopeless when it comes to fashion. Now I have to qualify my criticism here - it is ridiculously hot in Singapore and unless you plan to spend the entire day in an air-con environment, then you have to be sensible in the way you dress or risk sweating like a trooper. Fair enough, right? But that means that Singaporeans men who dress for the heat are kinda like... well, shorts/berms + singlet. I've once witnessed a couple obviously on a date in S'pore - the man was dressed like that whilst the woman had obviously made some effort - hair was immaculate, face full of make up and a sexy dress + high heels. And I'm like, I wonder how she feels about him making zero effort whilst she's obviously tried very hard to look good for this date?
DeleteIn other cultures - S Korean, Japanese, British etc - one does place more of an emphasis on the way we present ourselves when it comes to our clothing. Look at the way Prince William dressed up in S'pore even though he must be melting in that suit...
I agree about the fashion aspect too. Before I go into it, there's the disclaimer bit again; I do dress in shorts & flip-flops when heading to hawker centres or just for a stroll to get groceries for example and I do not claim to be an expert on fashion either lest folks think I'm a fashion snob...gawd knows the number of fashion faux pas I've made over the years. Right, disclaimer over..
DeleteThat scenario you described was one that I saw over and over again during the recent CNY. The ladies were dressed in sexy cheongsams and gorgeous dresses and mostly wore heels and then you take a look at their partners and you would be like wut?!? All of them were dressed in some kind of slacker uniform - plain round-necked tees in bruise-y colours like black, blue and brown, berms and sandals..the contrast was stark to say the least. Even my mum started noticing this and went "Eh why can't the guys at least put in a little more effort? Going CNY visiting lei."
As for the way they dress on dates, yes, Caucasian men and men from other countries do dress casual sometimes, but they do it smart casual, as in pair a nice shirt or polo tee with casual bottoms and a nice pair of shoes. Perhaps it's also the way they carry themselves; there is a certain je ne sai quois that true-blue local guys seem to lack.
No, you haven't "ripped" me apart as you said in your reply to Anthea.
Delete1. I can accept that women expect men to "pull their weight in the house", but what is considered pulling your weight differs from person to person. It depends on one's ability to do housework properly (such as cooking), and also the willingness of his/her spouse to take on housework. Of course, if a man only "watches football and drinks beer" then he's clearly not pulling his weight, but I'm not talking about clear-cut cases like that. In most cases, the question is not so much about whether men should do housework, but how much.
(By the way, my mother rarely does housework, leaving it to my father and myself. Every evening, she just watches TV until she falls asleep on the sofa. Also, an equal distribution of housework is not fair, since my father has much larger work commitments than my mother.)
Since you claimed that women are not "expecting to be put on a pedestal", let me just say that sometimes what is NOT said is more important that what is said. Most women who expect such treatment will not proclaim it. Perhaps Foyce Le is an exception:
"I expect my boyfriend to wait for me and pick me up from work often. Perhaps this is what guys mean when they complain that I am too 'princess-like'. I also like to dress up and be wined and dined at nice places."
Retrieved from http://sg.yfittopostblog.com/2010/05/31/foyce-le-call-me-a-gold-digger-i-dont-care
I cannot be sure that those women who shared their dating experiences on your blog are as such, but neither can I eliminate this possibility.
2. I wrote "While that guy SHOULDN'T... on a first date, I think his concern... is valid." This means that I do not recommend / support his behaviour, but his concern (about materialism / excessive spending) should not be brushed aside. Otherwise, it will lead to "mismatch of expectations" about spending habits as you mentioned. You committed strawman fallacy when asserting that I've "missed the whole purpose of a date", because I did not suggest that such concerns must be addressed on a first date.
3. You wrote that my mother "has not married the right man who would be compatible with her spending habits". The fact is not everyone can make an informed decision about marriage because people can change for the worse over time. According to my father, my mother used to be quite reasonable in her spending habits but has become sort of a spendthrift.
So far, this comment thread seems to suffer from response bias; a tendency to attract responses from women who want to vent their disappointment due to unhappy relationships with SG men, rather than responses from women who have a good relationship with SG men. I hope my comment has added some balance in this aspect. Just saying.
OK, thanks for your follow up and it is interesting to hear your side of the story since most of the posts here have been from SG women and SG men who are taking the side of the SG women.
Delete1 + 3. Again, this boils down to finding a partner who is happy to do things the same way - sure there are women who are happy to run the domestic sphere whilst the husband works hard to earn money, as long as both parties are happy, who are we to judge? I have also said that the onus lies on each individual to find a partner who will live up to their expectations - and when you realize that your partner doesn't ... what do you do? Try to change them or move on? I don't have the answers as there's no one size fits all approach to this complex topic - but we all have to take some responsibility for our choices, especially the bad ones so yes, that's something for these women with horror stories to think about.
2. Likewise, you should get to know a person a bit better (via social media, via mutual friends, group outings etc) before going on the first date rather than finding out all these things on the first date and for it to come as a total shock, like "oh no, she wants to drink expensive wine, she is not happy with teh-si". OK some of these women went on blind dates (not a good idea IMHO), but there you go. If you're happy to go on a date with someone purely on the basis of "s/he is so hot!" then fair enough, go and have a good time and put your hunt for a spouse on pause for that evening - but if you are actively spouse hunting, then the onus is on you to do some homework as well, so you have to accept that responsibility if you lack of research has led to the wrong date.
3. I don't want to comment on your parents as I don't know them well enough to speak about them - but allow me to comment very generally on the issue of people changing during a relationship. Yes, I recognize of course that it can happen - people have 2 choices: they can either try to adjust and work things out as the relationship and the people in the relationship evolve or they can decide to split up if they are no longer compatible and there is no hope of reconciliation.
The first option does require a lot of effort on both parts to want to work things out - but it is really the only option available: allowing things to fester when two adults grow further and further apart only leads to more misery in the long run. I ask you, what is the point of sustaining a relationship under those conditions, when you don't even care enough to make the necessary adjustments to allow the relationship to evolve to a new level of understanding under those conditions?
those SG men sound horrible! i married a Malaysian BUT BUT he was born in SG so he grew up in the same environment as all the SG dudes just that he doesn't have to serve NS.
ReplyDeletei am quite lucky in the sense that my hubby cooks and we split the chores evenly, he vacuums i mop, we both iron our own clothes. he has been staying with his parents up to the point til he got married but he was always quite independent.
while most guys who study abroad are generally quite independent, i have a girlfriend who married a SG dude who studied overseas and he cannot do most chores. i blame it on the mum who serves on him hand and foot. not sure if he's better now cos we no longer keep in touch but for a while she kept complaining about how he doesnt do anything. and another friend married a Malaysian (he came over to SG to study in JC) and he does do the chores BUT BUT she buys everything for him, clothes, underwear etc which i personally find strange.
Eurgh! There's something v creepy about a man who relies on his mum buying him his underwear!
DeleteWinking Doll is correct about the patriarchal mindset prevalent in Singapore, and I will add, beginning with the Government. Look at the messages, subtle or otherwise, that are being put out (not necc. by the Govt. of course): Increasing number of singles? Women are being choosy. Falling birth rates? Women refusing to have babies. Men having to go overseas to find women to marry? Women are too materialistic and arrogant. Add NS to the mix, stir in misogyny, and is it any wonder that the average man feels hard done by or feels that the fault does not lie with him.
ReplyDeleteBut the above (patriarchy, misogyny, living with one's parents) do not by themselves explain the lack of romance on the part of Singaporean men. I mean, look at the Mediterranean countries (patriarchy? check. misogyny? oh yes. chauvinism? you bet). It is not uncommon to find adult children living with their parents. In fact, a friend of mine lived with her Italian boyfriend and his parents for a period of time. And Italian men esp are known to be mama's boys, and mamas do anything and everything for their boys. But Italian (and Mediterranean men in general) know how to treat a woman well and make her feel special. Wining, dining and romance are in their blood and celebrated in their culture.
So, is the Asian culture to blame then? I believe yes, as romance is a (recent) concept imported from the West. Also to blame is the view that a woman needs to impress the man more than the other way around...in other words, she is more desperate for a mate than he is. (There was even an article in the Economist last year on the state of relationships, or lack thereof, in Asia.) And, not to forget, having a skewed idea of what equality really means (see Puppet's remarks, not that I am picking on him/her).
I like your analysis Anthea - NS + misogyny = Singaporean men refusing to admit that they are at fault when damnit, they are! I am male, I served NS, I am from Ang Mo Kio and Limpeh is completely taking the side of the Singaporean women here (hence this series of articles on my blog).
DeleteIs romance a western concept? Hmmm - I have watched plenty of Korean and Japanese movies with romance/love as a theme and they do celebrate a certain idealised vision of love ... but so what? We are westernised, we have consumed too much "Sex and the City" to turn back the clock so these are our expectations. We don't need to explain ourselves or have to justify why we feel this way.
As for Puppet, LOL - I've already ripped him apart, Limpeh style.
I wonder if all of this might in some indirect sociological way be similar to or have similar causes as the situation in the UK where girls are outperforming boys academically.
ReplyDeleteHey all, the next instalment is ready! http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/the-truth-about-men-in-singapore-part-2.html
ReplyDeleteInteresting post, actually I do wonder what Singaporean women think of Malaysian men. Usually I have heard opinions of the other way around (SG men on Msian women) and they mostly sound like a city boy falling for a girl from a village with greener grass (oh they are so demure/soft/good housewife material). About SG girls with MY guys, it seems rather mixed (they are more gentlemanly vs they are suaku kampung boys). anyone care to clarify?
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of the points about SG men actually though I'd say that SG men do have their qualities as well, though those qualities aren't enough to attract women (especially Singaporean women). What's strange is that although they are hot in pursuit of women from less developed countries, they claim that these women are pursuing them!
Well yeah, they have money. Even an SG guy who earns S$3000 a month washing dishes at Sakae sushi would come across as a very rich man in somewhere like Laos or Myanmar.
DeleteAh yes, many SG guys I've met think that they appeal to girls because they have more money.
DeleteThey also believe that they are more mature than their Malaysian counterparts because of NS as well. Mature I don't think so but more physically fit yes, this is a plus point for SG guys vis-a-vis Malaysian/other Asian guys to be fair.
Your previous reply prompted me to add this, as I was originally from Myanmar and have kept close ties with the community here and back in Myanmar. No, Burmese women do not desire Singaporean man, even the village girls who might think that S$3000 is a lot of money.
ReplyDeleteBurmese man definitely know how to romance their woman and treat them with respect. When my dad married my mom, she couldn't fry an egg while my dad can wipe up a new year's meal. Over the year, they each have compromised to complement each other. My mom can cook splendidly and there were years when my dad stayed home to let my mom develop her career. Growing up in Sg, my local friends often comment how my dad dote on my mom on a crazy level ( in their eyes) and how their Chinese mcp fathers will never do that. I just tell them it pretty much the norm and that just how you treat women there, with respect.
I don't understand the thinking of many (not all) Singaporean men even though I grew up here and most of my friends are local Chinese. Even time a woman points something out, they get SO defensive. I know many might feel that Sg being a cosmopolitant city the mindset should be more forward than say a country like Myanmar. Can't be more wrong. The mindset some local men have towards the women is quite disgusting.
And of cos due to my opinions, many a local men who meet me for the first time immediately label me SPG. Thing is I've never dated an Ang moh before.
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DeleteOK, I stand corrected. I don't know much about Burmese culture - I was just trying to pick a poorer Asian country to illustrate my point. I'm sorry if I have misrepresented your culture. To be honest, the only Burmese people I've met in Singapore was my sister's former maid and the maids of other Singaporeans and they weren't being paid much at all. But no, I've never talked to her about that topic on love & Singaporean men. I was just making the point that a Singaporean man will come across as rich to someone in rural Myanmar because it is a fact, whether or not the women of Myanmar will desire the Singaporean man because of their relative wealth, that's another matter and you have clearly explained that point. Thanks anyway.
DeleteI totally get your point but since you mentioned something about men for other parts of Asia, you comment on Myanmar was a good opportunity to talk a little about how Burmese man behave. So I made my comment. Thank you for this series because IMHO Singaporean women do get bashed pretty often by their men. It seems that with the progress of the country, the women have moved on and the men are still stomping their feet over the changes. Understandable since the older ways favor the men but it's really about time the men get with the program.
DeleteYes - you made a good point about women and men moving at different paces with regards to a country's change. Singapore is a rapidly changing country, but obviously not all Singaporeans are evolving as fast as their country.
DeleteI loved your observations! Personally, I'm a Singaporean girl who has been living overseas since I left for university and gradually stayed away for work. I'm 27 now and although I would love to date a Singaporean man, I often find myself getting really vexed with their attitudes and behavior in general. Especially when I know how a lady is supposed to be treated (from personal and immediate circles' experiences and observations), I can't quite swallow how Singaporean man could feel ungentlemanly behaviors are socially justified. In my understanding, being a gentleman is like being a lady, it should transcend all nationalities and is part of good respectable character and personality.
ReplyDeleteTo start off, they may be great as friends but to grow to an intimate level is challenging due to their myopic and lack of depth/ perspective arguments presented in a healthy banter that I find is necessary to let any relationship grow deeper and stronger. Their lack of ability to engage in a stimulating conversation is what I find rather disappointing as they normally would only be interested in affairs directly affecting them and not on ancillary world current affairs. While I don't expect people to know a lot, I would appreciate if Singaporean guys would not snub off saying, 'this is not important to me, don't know don't care...' I find that when I speak about current affairs with foreigners, they tend to give their personal point of view/ take on the issue despite not knowing too much about it and I find this openness and willing to learn attitude very attractive. So somehow, the potential for a worldly experience with a Singaporean guy seems very limited due to their lack of willingness to expand their horizon out of their comfort zone.
Then, there are the tiny bits such as the lack of personal hygiene and poor grooming habits. Tiny things such as burping loudly in public and eating nosily are really a turn-off but they somehow find it is perfectly normal in a civilized world.
Another point I'd like to make is the realization about how Singaporean guys love to gossip about women to each other. It really ticks me off when men whose standards for women are higher than their standards for themselves. Younger Singaporean guys also have the tendency to poke fun at girls just for the sake of their own pleasure. How does that sound right?
The last point is perhaps the whole concoction of ungentlemanly behaviors, lack of worldly experience and desire to expand horizon and the paucity of personal grooming make them rather unpalatable in contrast to other men in the world. Any woman in the world wants to feel like a girlfriend/ wife not a mother but I somehow feel like I'm a mother when I'm with a Singaporean guy! Why? That's because they don't initiate romantic moves and take a lot of things for granted.
I find it rather sad that most of my encounters with Singaporean guys turned out this way.
Hi Ally, thanks for your comment. I was just going through your list and wondering - surely some of those attributes belong to men of other nationality as well? Or do you think they are far more 'Singaporean'?
DeleteI can relate to Exolectrik. I found this blog because I am trying to find a current social problem. (For business opportunity and value creation)
ReplyDeleteCould I politely ask everyone to try this simple experiment? Try saying “May all sentient beings be well and happy. May they all be free from suffering caused by diseases, enmity and grief”. Assuming this sentence takes you about 8 seconds each, it would take you about 2 hours. If you say it 1 million times (2 hours a day), you will need about 2.7 years to reach 1 million. That is the estimated population size for Singaporean men age 20-40. So my first question, would be how many Singaporean men or women have you dated to come to this conclusion?
I think there is a very beautiful phrase. “We are who we attract.” Why is this so? A thief would be fearful of leaving his/her belongings on the table. A kind person who sees the beauty in other people are happier even if they are “wrong”. When we point a finger forward, three will point backwards. Our anger and disappointment are often the results of our own insecurity just like a bucket of water with a hole that cannot be filled up completely.
There is also a common misconception that foreign women/men are inferior. A person’s right to life and “value” cannot be easily measured. If even God or Buddhas do not judge us, what right do we have to judge others?
Different people have different strength, no sentient being is more superior than the others, and we all have to leave this earth one day empty handed. No sentient being is perfect, so if we are not perfect ourselves, shouldn’t we be more patient of other. Thus life is not measured by how successful you are nor how much you possess because all these are transient. Don’t forget no one gets out of life and letting go is often more difficult than it seems. I personally feel life is measure by how many people’s life have you touched.
Lastly, we can never change other people but ourselves and by changing our views and focusing on ourselves (growth), could we find REAL happiness.
Lastly, would you be surpised that EVERYWHERE people are complaining about EVERYONE else? Its not just Singapore.
Look inward, happiness is there. Take care.
"Finances aside, think about being better in other areas. Act like a gentleman, learn new things to feed your intellect, work out so you have a healthy body. Asian men also tend to lack confidence, so work on that too!"
ReplyDeleteit's usually only the nerdy, unattractive asian men who have trouble with confidence; attractive asian men tend to be booming with confidence because they know that any asian girl would go for them. if anything, there are actually more asian girls who lack confidence than guys