I have a similar experience to "Me So Ornery" -- On our first date, JN kept commenting about our dining location choice even though I only ordered a salad buffet at Sizzler which cost less than SGD$20! (Around SGD$12 + service charge + tax, if I remember it correctly.) Since I have met nice but poor guys before and I am not expecting my future-spouse to be financially superior to me, at the end of the meal, I took out my credit card and said, "It's my treat."
He then commented on my Platinum card, something like, "Wah, Platinum card some more, you earn a lot of money hor!" I had to reassure him that it was because of my previous profession (IT in banking/finance) and that my new career (nursing) will not pay so much. That said, at least he had the saving grace of rejecting my credit card and paid for both our meals in cash. I offered to go-dutch, he declined, so I offered to treat him the next round -- i.e. we take turns to pay. [Don't say I never give Singaporean men chance hor!] The breaking point came when he was unable to disagree without being disagreeable. http://winkingdoll.blogspot.ca/2010/08/facebook-exchange-what-it-means-to.html
Add to that mainstream media also repeats one old man's arcane idea's of gender roles and social "norms". E.g. The concept that "man must marry down, and woman must marry up" (resulting in the need to compare income with the lady they date, and feeling inferior if the lady makes more).
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/09/lee-kuan-yews-below-the-the-belt-answer/
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| In Asia, marriage is still very much influenced by cultural factors. |
In my view, it is quite true with Singaporean males that because they do not stay away from their parents, they are not independent. My wife's uncle is just like that: stays with his brother's family with his elderly mother, and only spends money on himself. Still pretty childlike for a guy in past his mid-30s.
My wife had dated Singaporean guys with all the symptoms the two reader mentioned. I recall did having a few of those myself, but am glad I broke out of my shelf by the time I starting courting my wife. All in all, the two readers do have a point. Although one must consider that those who leave their homeland to work elsewhere tend to be adverturous, with marketable skills, and are goal oriented.
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| What are women looking for in a man? |
I absolutely agree that the local guys who studied abroad are way more independent than those who have stayed in SG all their lives. An acquaintance shared that he washes his clothes by hand when his parents are away...all coz he doesn't know how to operate a washing machine..cue facepalm. I also find the constant having to report your movements to your significant other behaviour baffling.
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| Can you use one of these? |
I agree with Peanut that local guys should "think about being better in other areas". An ex-colleague laments about his ever-increasing weight gain, but whinges that walking a short distance from Paragon to Cineleisure is far. Another has a sour grapes mentality towards trying anything new - Sample comment: "Huh why go learn salsa? It's not like you are going to be a dancer." I am not saying that these guys are devoid of kindness and niceness, but the above behaviours can be quite a turn off.
I find Caucasian men tend to be more engaging conversationalists, being able to listen more and even banter, as opposed to local guys who tend to give monosyllabic answers to even open-ended questions such as "Wow you've been to Scotland! Do tell me about your favourite place." To which the local guy would reply "Can't remember liow", as compared to the Caucasian guy who would go on and on about the people, the landscape and the food for instance. And yes, they "opened doors for me" and "went out of their way to make me happy". I'm not saying I need to be treated like a princess all the time, but such gestures are still sweet and do make a difference.
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| "You are my princess." |
Peanut wrote:
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| What makes a man a good catch? |
But in the end your true colors always emerge. Book-smarts cannot compensate for EQ, confidence and decisiveness. BTW, the mousepad guy ended up getting a degree from the best university in America... but he is still single and clueless and he hasn't had a girlfriend since I dated him over 10 years ago when I was 18 (or so). He figured that he would make lots of money to get a girl, but he lacks and confidence and assertiveness to be in finance or consulting, which he thought could help him achieve that.
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| Singaporean women are no longer comprising on their standards for love. |
while most guys who study abroad are generally quite independent, i have a girlfriend who married a SG dude who studied overseas and he cannot do most chores. i blame it on the mum who serves on him hand and foot. not sure if he's better now cos we no longer keep in touch but for a while she kept complaining about how he doesnt do anything. and another friend married a Malaysian (he came over to SG to study in JC) and he does do the chores BUT BUT she buys everything for him, clothes, underwear etc which i personally find strange.
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| What do you have to say for yourselves, men of Singapore? |
Winking Doll is correct about the patriarchal mindset prevalent in Singapore, and I will add, beginning with the Government. Look at the messages, subtle or otherwise, that are being put out (not necc. by the Govt. of course): Increasing number of singles? Women are being choosy. Falling birth rates? Women refusing to have babies. Men having to go overseas to find women to marry? Women are too materialistic and arrogant. Add NS to the mix, stir in misogyny, and is it any wonder that the average man feels hard done by or feels that the fault does not lie with him.
But the above (patriarchy, misogyny, living with one's parents) do not by themselves explain the lack of romance on the part of Singaporean men. I mean, look at the Mediterranean countries (patriarchy? check. misogyny? oh yes. chauvinism? you bet). It is not uncommon to find adult children living with their parents. In fact, a friend of mine lived with her Italian boyfriend and his parents for a period of time. And Italian men esp are known to be mama's boys, and mamas do anything and everything for their boys. But Italian (and Mediterranean men in general) know how to treat a woman well and make her feel special. Wining, dining and romance are in their blood and celebrated in their culture.
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| Well clearly someone has got this whole thing wrong.... |
So, is the Asian culture to blame then? I believe yes, as romance is a (recent) concept imported from the West. Also to blame is the view that a woman needs to impress the man more than the other way around...in other words, she is more desperate for a mate than he is. (There was even an article in the Economist last year on the state of relationships, or lack thereof, in Asia.) And, not to forget, having a skewed idea of what equality really means (see Puppet's remarks, not that I am picking on him/her).
(I was wondering if anyone was going to write anything about Singaporean women and sure enough I got the following comment from a brave Singaporean man on the issue.)
Puppet wrote:
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| Are Singaporean wives expected to do all the domestic chores? |
2. While that guy shouldn't have went "on and on about how he usually eats at hawker centres..." on a first date, I think his concern that his potential spouse is materialistic is valid. Women nowadays work and have their own income, but the bills are often paid by the men. If a man's girlfriend has a habit of spending excessively, then he should be concerned since he'll likely be paying for that if they get married.
For example, my father often complains about how my mother incur hefty phone bills for her long-winded conversations and huge credit card bills for clothes and shoes (which she hardly wears).
2. I think you've missed the whole purpose of a date - gosh, you've just confirmed that romance is well and truly DEAD in Singapore. Yes you can find the tombstone for romance in the Bukit Brown cemetery. Like, are you single for crying out aloud? When was the last time you tried to be romantic?
Whilst there is a balance to be struck in terms of expensive gifts and how much money one spends on a date, I think that if you are busy counting every cent you're spending on a date, then you're more interested in your money than the person you're with - and that's no basis for any kind of date or friendship. Good grief, I take my friends out and treat them regularly without counting the money as long as I know I can afford it and we have a good time - and these are just my friends! And you wonder why Singaporean think Singaporean men are stingy whilst Angmohs are generous.
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| Are white guys more generous lovers? |
3. Your parents. I think your mum needs to go to the phone shop and switch her talk plan if she is incurring hefty phone bills - I am sure she is on the wrong talk plan and you can help her find a better talk plan.
Without knowing your domestic situation, I don't want to pass any judgement on your parents - the point is that the onus is on the individual to check that they are getting what they are getting before committing themselves - that applies to mobile phone contracts as much as marriage. It seems like your mum is not only on the wrong talk plan, but she has not married the right man who would be compatible with her spending habits. Likewise, if your dad was expecting a wife who was careful with money - well, clearly he didn't marry the right woman.
Yes you should get to know the person you're dating well before taking it to the next step and if you are a Singaporean man with limited financial resources, then you should find a woman who has very, very low expectations on that front. At the end of the day, I just see all this (your parents' story + the story of all these other women here) as a mismatch of expectations. And if Singaporean women cannot find Singaporean men who meet their high expectations - whose fault is it? Society seems too ready to blame the women, but I say, it is time to blame the men as well.
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| Who do we blame for this mess - the men or the women of Singapore? |
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| Is dating and finding a spouse the same thing? |
The ladies are also of the opinion that it is perfectly ok to ask the guys out these days, as opposed to waiting around forever. Some local guys, like the aforementioned guy who can't operate the washing machine, find this to be too bold. On the other hand, when I asked him why he hasn't asked the girl he fancies out for a date, he would reply "Don't need la, can tell she's not interested" even BEFORE asking her. With guys like this, you can't exactly blame the ladies for making the first move.
And for the record, I am perfectly capable of doing chores as we do not have a maid @ home. As you have rightly pointed out, it is not expecting the guy to do every single thing around the house and rather more of being able to pull his own weight. Puppet's comments on spending habits also made me think of my ex-colleague and his wife then; they didn't share common interests such as going to the movies together (makes me wonder what they did on dates as watching movies has got to be the #1 activity couples here do) and similar viewpoints on important matters such as having kids (he wanted kids, she wanted to wait). It's strange that such topics were not touched on before marriage.
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| Singaporean men need to listen to Singaporean women to realize where they're going wrong! |
And now back to Limpeh...
Okay this is long enough. I shall leave it at this - there will have to be a part 3 because so far, I am merely quoting what my LIFTers have said, but I do see the irony here. Singapore men are such... undesirable creatures because of their domestic situation. Take my nephew for example: you have 5 women at his beck and call - 2 grandmothers, his mother, his aunt and his maid. He has never ever washed a cup in his life. The women in his life are creating a selfish monster who will make all these horror stories pale in comparison. I'm sorry if this is cruel, but I'm his freaking uncle and I find his behaviour freaking unbearable. And that's me putting it very mildly already, but it suffices to say that I can't imagine any local Singaporean woman dating someone like that - unless he resorts to marrying some poor PRC woman from some remote corner of China who will do anything to move to Singapore.
You know what the irony is? The kid is not to blame - I know it is not his fault really. Rather, I blame the adults who have not brought him up properly. They have all the best motivations in the world yet they still fuck up so badly. Now how did we end up in this situation? Apart from the maid (let's leave her out of this), the very people who have created this selfishness are his family members who are purely motivated by love - yet in bending over backwards to give him anything and everything he wants, they've done some really serious damage to his character in the process. How did they get it this wrong?
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| You know how I feel about parenting in Singapore - it sucks bad. |
I know my mother realizes that she was too strict with her own children, so she is trying to make amends by going to the other extreme by spoiling her grandchild. My sister never got any love from my mother - my mother never praised her, never hugged her, never ever told her 'well done', oh and my mum regularly beat my sister just because she's an Asian mum. When she lost her temper, she would hit first ask questions later (if ever) - yup, that's fucked up Asian parenting for you. So my sister reacts by going to the other extreme when she became a mother by being this super lovey-dovey mother who hugs her son non-stop, kisses her son, can't stop telling him how the sun shines out of his bottom no matter how badly behaved he is. She is giving him all the love she never got as a child. You get the idea - we have a lot of unresolved bullshit that is affecting the way my nephew is being brought up and it's not a good formula.
There is a lot of unresolved tension between my sister and my mum. Oh boy. I can almost sense that my sister is trying to show my mother that she is not going use the same kind of parenting techniques my mother used - that she was going to be different, be better. By that token, my sister has gone too far in the other direction - yes she's made her point but is that what is best for my nephew?
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| Can you remember what you did at the age of 6? |
My mum and sister need to go for conflict resolution therapy and work this one through with a professional. But do they talk about it? No, they tell me their side of the story but never talk about it directly, it is the elephant in the room they ignore. My mother claims, "I am giving her son the best child care in the world, if that is not love, what is that? Haven't I done enough already?" Instead of resolving this conflict about whether my mother was abusive when we were kids, no - they focus their energies on my nephew instead and the way he is being brought up is determined by what happened over 30 years ago - that's just so wrong on so many levels.
It's like when my nephew told my mother, "Mummy said that you hit her a lot when she was a girl, why did you do that?" And my mother got really upset that my sister raised that with my nephew and I'm like, "but it's true what. She is only telling the truth, you can't deny that." And my mum replied, "Your nephew is too young to understand all that." And I had to tell her, "Yeah, like my sister and I were old enough when you used to beat us up all the time. You have to face up to what you have done, rather than pretend it never happened." Frankly, I don't think my mum feels bad about having been abusive when we were kids - it was considered "normal" for Asian parents to beat their kids up abusively. She only worries now that she may lose the affection of her beloved grandson if he found out the full extent of how abusive she was back in those days. Why am I telling you this long story? It is because Singaporean men are the way they are because of the role Singaporean women play in their lives. You can't just blame the men for the way they are - you have to look at the other women in their lives and how their decisions have influences his upbringing.
However, I don't see this as a fate that all Singaporean men will befall. It is a cycle we can break out of! After all, I broke out of that mould despite being from a typical - nay, make that STEREOTYPICAL Mandarin-Hokkien speaking Singaporean-Chinese family from Ang Mo Kio. I suppose it was my rebellious nature that meant that I didn't get along with my parents (and that's putting it very mildly again - like who am I freaking kidding, we did not get along, period) meant that I was desperate to establish my independence and move away from them the moment I could. Sorry for using myself as an example, but I didn't turn out like the other male Singaporeans - and it wasn't even intentional, that was just the way things panned out after I moved away from Singapore.
So I dashed down to the nearest NTUC, grabbed all the ingredients I needed and made them a spicy fried frogs legs dish with a tangy Thai lemon grass sauce. When I presented my dish to my hosts, my friend loved it and he asked me, "Can you teach my mother how to make this dish?"
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| I love using lemongrass in my cooking. |
And I was like, "Why don't I teach you how to make this dish?"
He made a face and his mother replied, "Oh around here, I do all the cooking lah."
It was just the way it was there, his mother found it amusing that a man like me could cook - her son had never done as much as made a cup of tea in that kitchen. After dinner, I was invited to play computer games with him - but I insisted on helping his mother clear up and wash the dishes. She couldn't believe it - it was not something her son had ever offered to do. I can't remember exactly what she said but I think she was saying that my mother must have taught me to be such a good boy to help out in the house. And that's when I thought, how ironic: I am very good around the house only because I really didn't get along with my folks and was by default, forced to become fiercely independent the moment I moved away. Had I got along with my parents, would I become like my friend - just another stereotypical Singaporean man still living with his parents at the age of 36?
Part 3 coming up soon! Please keep those juicy 'horror stories' coming - we love them! Thanks ;)
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| My time away from Singapore has changed me a lot. |
Whoa, loved those stories from other LIFTers as well!
ReplyDeleteNow I was thinking why are our Singaporean men so unattractive, and your point about 5 women, 1 boy child hit home. I really do think it is the upbringing - a generation of mothers who did not expect their boys to lift a finger and in fact taught their boys that wives are expected to wait hand and foot on them. Why is this so? Maybe because a generation ago, educated women are still fairly rare and their value/measure of self-worthiness is derived from their ability to cook, clean and do everything in the house for their families. A "good" woman does all these.
There was a story about how one mother buys underwear for her adult son; I know of guys whose mothers continue to offer to buy their underwear AFTER these sons had gotten married. Come on. Is there no sense of boundaries/innate wish to cultivate independence from their sons? Or are these women desperate to remain relevant in their sons' lives, but there is so little they can offer in terms of emotional and intellectual connection, hence falling back to the "let me take care of all the little details in your life". The whole patriarchal mentality is well and alive!
But the current generation of women are actually pretty well educated. We do well in their professions; even previously male-dominated professions are seeing an influx of female presence. I can't speak for every working woman, but I don't see my value as largely generated from being able to cook, clean and be a "small woman"( 小女人). To be blunt, if I were to put a monetary value on the ability to cook and clean, that would be approx $400, the salary given to a maid. And I'm worth more than $400.
Singapore men who bitch about local women not being able to/willing to cook and clean, get a maid dude. We can offer much more than that now as a wife - we can bring in a good income, we offer good conversation, alternative perspectives and opinions, interesting experiences. But it seems these qualities are not much appreciated by local men - a large swath still want incarnations of their mothers.
Which is also why local men start to compare our ladies to foreign brides - women they perceive (is the operative word) as simple kampung girls... and whom they can lord over and be a domestic slave. Mothers-in-law prefer these little women too, they remind them of themselves. Bit narcissistic, no?
Ahem guys (and their mothers). Get with the program. The ship has sailed. Singaporean women have blossomed within a single generation, and the men seems to have failed to catch up.
And to our generation of women, let's not breed sons who have such a strong sense of entitlement. Let's train them up to have the qualities of the men we would have wanted for ourselves.
Hi again and thanks for your insightful reply again. I was going to do my next chapter about the men's perspective but what can I say, Singaporean women like you are far more eloquent in articulating your POV.
DeleteI totally get your point about the older mothers deperate to remain relevant in their sons' lives - I see that with my mother. Now I'm 8 time zones away in London so we talk on the phone and that's really it. When I am in Singapore, my company puts me up in a nice pad so I don't have to commute into the CBD from AMK and so I have a very distant relationship with my mother - and at family gatherings, I would sit down with my sisters and we would talk about stuff she doesn't understand: social media, for instance. She still doesn't quite understand what a blog is whilst my sister runs the social media PR campaigns at her company and she is so techno-savvy. We try to explain to her how it works and drag her into the 21st century but she doesn't want to progress. We would have to avoid talking about anything 'modern' to do with 'post-2000 technology' in her presence, it almost feels like the movie 'Goodbye Lenin'.
It's like she would ask me questions like, "how is your work going" and I'm like, how can I dumb it down to her level so I can explain it to her what I am doing ... Ironically, my dad TOTALLY gets what I do (even if I have to explain it in Mandarin) and no amount of Hokkien/Singlish/Malay helps when trying to explain it to my mum, she just doesn't get what I do and she is so freaked out by the fact that I get paid more some months and less on other months as a contractor. http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-generation-gap-ten-things-my.html
Instead, aha - she focusses on my nephew who is still too young to understand all this (yet) and she thinks, I am smarter than my grandson and he will look up to me as this wise old person. So she fusses over him to no end and the way she does so is by doing stuff for him - like he's going to be 10 and she still bathes him, like she gets in the bathroom, soaps him down and washes every nook and cranny. That is just fucking CREEPY. Like, she's scarring him psychologically. But whenever I raise the topic, she would say, "He got a fungal infection when he didn't wash himself properly, if I don't take care of his health, who will? You're not the one who has to take care of him when he is sick, when have you ever taken him to the doctor?" And I'm like, no one is taking any credit away from you as a great grandmother, but good grief, like when are you going to stop bathing him like that? It's not normal on so many levels.
I wonder if my mother is doing this because her son is so independent that he's spent the last 15 years away from Singapore so she focusses on her grandson instead - or are all Singaporean grandparents like that? We need to look at the roles of grandparents as well in the equation because this is Singapore - the parents are often working and it is the grandparents who bring up the kids at home.
sorry, but my mom would be like that too with my daughter.....if I let her......the word is NEEDY man! emotionally needy!!! They need someone to depend wholly on them so that they can feel useful, loved, important, etc.....
DeleteI blame this all on a lack of hobbies and (in my mom's cases) network of friends OF THE SAME AGE n background! Then they can play mahjong and hum and haw over each other's "unfilial children" and stop PROJECTING on the others in their family that love their grannies, but just want to get on with their own lives (speaking for the kids too BTW).
In this way he angmos really have got it sussed out.....my angmo friends' parents are enjoying life travelling (those with money), or doing other cool stuff and just enjoying their remaining time without needing to be the same queen or big boss in their childrens' lives!!!
Thanks for your empathy! Like I can't imagine many of my nephew's peers allows their grandmothers to bathe them like that - the boy has got to grow up, toughen up and go serve NS like his peers. The women in his life (mother, aunt, grandmas) don't realize that by being his troupe of servants/slaves, they are making it a lot harder for him to adjust to life in NS and he will suffer like shit in NS - at which point, I can turn around and say, "see I told you so?! You were wrong, I was right, as always." but that's not the kinda thing I will gain much satisfaction from.
DeleteSounds like your mum and my mum should hang out and do old ladies stuff together. It's not like we don't have money in our family - but you've hit the nail on the head, my mum totally feeds of the fact that my nephew is WHOLLY dependent on her and cannot bathe without her. That's ... creepy. And she has boasted to me, "your nephew will only listen to me, he listens to me more than he listens to your sister - if you want him to do anything, you tell me and I will ask him to do it, then he will do it." It's a power trip for her. Groan.
I think some Singaporean men are just clueless, which like you said is not entirely their fault. My best friend who's just returned from the States and put it well, it's a "frog-in-the-well syndrome" and it doesn't just apply to relationships unfortunately. It's no wonder so many are being outclassed left, right and center.
ReplyDeleteGosh I hope my friends are not like that. Is it that hard that there be equity?
Hmmmm - I look at my male friends in Singapore and there is a mix lah, a full spectrum from hopeless to v independent. Let's be fair lah, I think the women who have responded with their 'horror stories' have focussed on the 'hopeless' end of the story. People with horror stories often have juicy stories to share and we read them cos those stories are often hilarious! Those who settled down with Mr Right have nothing to complain about and hence have no horror stories loh - so let's see it in that context.
DeleteRe: horror stories ...it's like you know, people are quick to complain but slow to praise. True for customer service, and true for every day life too.....
DeleteYay! first to comment! (LIFT, can I request that you strip out my identifying information if you decide to publish this comment please? I promise I'll be a loyal supporter of your blog.)
ReplyDeleteHi LIFT, (I'm not sure if I should comment (or it's wise to) on this topic but here goes.)
WOW! must say that I'm quite surprised by the amount of comments and negativity posted by the Singaporean womanfolk in general. But I can't say I disagree with the generalisations. As in everything in life, it's not all black and white. Please allow me to reveal some comments on 2 individuals I have met here in the short time I'm living in Oz.
First was a guy my wife's friend get set-up in a blind date when 'Amy' (not her real name) visited us. The first time Amy met the guy, we went along to make sure she's safe. This guy, Tom, (not real name too) is a ex-Singaporean who has given up his Singapore citizenship to cash-in on his cpf. Tom claims to be a successful accountant in a big firm with a very successful career. At this first meeting, Tom actually asked for all our telephone numbers and addresses, job titles and yearly income. (Red Flag No. 1, but very Singaporean)
Somehow, I couldn't really believe his story about his job/career. Before Amy met Tom, they had only communicated through Facebook. Tom actually asked Amy to buy packets of instant noddles from Singapore! Claiming the particular brand is not available in Oz. (Red flag No. 2)
Turns out, Tom was sacked from his last job (reasons unknown/not given) and was on welfare for the last 5 years! That's not the main problem. The main problem was that even then, Tom expected Amy to help him reinstate his Singapore citizenship and help him find a job in Amy's organisation. Basically, he was like most Singaporean man who thinks they are God's gift to woman and tends to look to the woman in their life to repair/make good everything in life that they screw-up. This coupled with his award-winning rudeness and appalling lack of social skills made him sadly a very typical Singaporean man.
This was a man who has stayed at least 8 years by himself in Oz. So it's not the time spent away from Singapore/families that changes the Singaporean man. It's his own character/development. You can take the man out of Singapore but you can't take Singapore out of him.
(end of part 1)
Hi - firstly, there's no information whatsoever on your Blogger profile and secondly, I don't get to edit the comments! I have the option of 'publish' vs 'delete' - there is no 'edit' option which makes complete sense: how would you feel if I could totally edit your comment and put words in your mouth, things that you never ever meant to say? See? There is a good reason why Blogger does not allow me to edit comments.
DeleteAs for immigrants who do not change after years of being away from their home country, well! I met this guy in his 50s who was born in Bangladesh but moved here at the age of like 2 with his parents - and his English was so bad I could barely understand him, like dude, you've spent like 50+ years in England and you've not learnt English? So yeah, there are immigrants who don't assimilate and live as if they are in their home country. It happens - and it sucks. I mean, they suck.
(part 2)
ReplyDelete2nd case was my friend, Cindy (not real name) coming from Singapore to visit with her husband and brother-in-law. In short, the man behaved like typical Singaporean man again.
After they enjoyed a generous home-cooked meal, as in your post above, only Cindy remembered to clear the dishes/help with the clean-up.
The man went to the sofa to watch TV. When they left, only Cindy remembered to thank us for the hospitality.
The next day, we took Cindy+extended family for some sight-seeing. At dinner, Cindy's brother-in-law, (who we do not know existed prior to the trip.) proceed to order the most expansive item on the menu while the rest of us ordered the normal ones. Near the end of the meal, Cindy, explicitly informed her husband to pay for the whole meal. When Cindy + my wife + the kids went to the restroom, Cindy's husband + brother-in-law immediately proceed to leave the restaurant. (Even declaring: We're going!) Leaving me to settle their bill.
The main problem is that neither Cindy's husband or her brother-in-law doesn't seem to have the social graces to appreciate that they are behaving in a appalling manner! Till this day, they think they behaved normally as Singaporeans.
So, LIFT, I think the majority of male Singaporean lack social graces, basic manners and sensitivity. Although I have also met my fair share of well mannered, socially well behaved, well adjusted Singaporeans both inside and outside Singapore. (But these are in the minority and are getting less and less. Not sure if it's the dog eat dog world Singapore environment that causes this.)
I'm not very sure if NS has a hand in molding these values but I don't remember my friends/classmates was this bad before NS. If given a choice, I would make some social grooming/manners/social behavior course compulsory before they leave NS.
(In interest of full disclosure, I'm a male Singaporean. And no, I don't behave in an appalling manner.)
NS encourages all the wrong kind of social graces, for more, please read my previous post on it: http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/avinology-and-ns-in-singapore.html
Deletewow! I read "E"'s story with open mouth BUT it sounded strangely familiar! My take on it? absentee fathers! (spoiling mothers dont help either!) I mean how many of the adult Singaporeans today had dads around in their childhood who would talk to them about how to "cho nang"? (my pitiful attempt at anglicizing dialect....meaning "being a person"). Certainly not my dad! That was woman's work, teaching kids how to behave etc. No male role models lah.....like the black make community in the States!
DeleteInteresting read. I have a few thoughts on this subject. This might be long. Forgive me.
ReplyDeleteIn defence of the Singaporean male, I do not think that all the supposed whiny guys are actually a fair representation of the majority. Or that the some of the traits of such men are negative and undesirable to all women in Singapore. Besides, some the well articulated womenfolk, there is also a goodly number of women who do want to be the "little woman", or the "Ah-Lians" who want their men to be ,well, very "MAN". And I doubt that these segments would form your regular readers.
There are a good many who find reading 8 Days to preview next week's TV serials to be more engaging than reading about skiing, politics or general affairs. In fact, reading is done on a must-needs basis. A worldly, urbane man might have the effect of making them feel poorly about themselves. Or he could elevate their life experience, yes, but knives cut both ways.
If the Singaporean man is as bad as they are sometimes hyped up to be, there would be a lot more singles than there are now.
Hmmmm - I look at my male friends in Singapore and there is a mix lah, a full spectrum from hopeless to v independent. Let's be fair lah, I think the women who have responded with their 'horror stories' have focussed on the 'hopeless' end of the story. People with horror stories often have juicy stories to share and we read them cos those stories are often hilarious! Those who settled down with Mr Right have nothing to complain about and hence have no horror stories loh - so let's see it in that context.
DeleteAlso... yes I know my writing style tends to suit a certain kind of readership and my political views also alienate a certain segment of the population, so my LIFTers tend to fit a certain kind of profile - yeah. I think that those who don't like my kind of writing will simply surf onto another website rather than come and wage war with me in the comment section, LOL.
In response to your last line: not all women have high standards, some have low standards for whatever reasons, just saying.
Different strokes for different folks, it's what makes the world an interesting or annoying place.
DeleteThe next point about housework.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I do most of the housework at home, as my wife has a career that is rather brain-sapping. So if she doesn't have the time to do the housework, then I'll do it since I run my own business and can afford to be flexible about my work schedule. I prefer happiness at home so I'll do what I can to achieve that. So the time that we do get to spend together is shared by cooking for the kids, enjoying family time and going out and about, since the vacuuming and stuff are mostly taken care of. And since I enjoy those good times, I won't be complaining. Though when the kids grow up, I'll have helpers.
Many of my married male friends do housework as well. And all of us lived with our parents in Singapore until we got married. Housework isn't rocket science. It's a matter of will. Not having done it before just means more time and effort spent. It will get done eventually. You get better at it as time goes by.
Having said that, I do also know of families where the man doesn't do housework. The wife accepts that. If she isn't complaining then why should I?
I don't believe it is so much the housework per se, but showing how much effort you are willing to put into making the relationship work. It's a way of showing emotional support by keeping the home environment clean and nice. The man who doesn't do housework might show his strengths in other ways, such as taking care of the financial worries, he might be really good at sucking up to the in-laws, etc.
I do agree that I can see why people would dislike the stereotypical Singaporean man.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, the worldly, urbane, suave and romantic male is in short supply worldwide, and not just in Singapore. I am sure Limpeh must have had your British girlfriends bitch about arsehole Caucasuians that they have dated.
I do dislike the fact that many Singaporeans will count the pennies. That there is a general lack of social graces. And that besides football and popular culture, many would struggle to hold an engaging conversation about general affairs. (I got interested in my wife, when she professed a liking for history, and said that she would accompany me to Italy.) I did also think that were I a woman, I wouldn't go out with many of the Singaporean men.
Although I do think that there are enough of the interesting, witty and lovely Singapore men about for our womenfolk. Though maybe, they are all attached to the foreign women.
So yes, the menfolk could definitely up their game, but it takes time. If women let men know what they want long enough, eventually we will get it into our thick skulls. Sorry for the long one.
Correct. On the point of urbane, suave, romantic gentlemen who know how to please their women, well it boils down to the individual - some people are better than others for a variety of reasons: their parents, their family, their peers, their cultural values, their aspirations, their influences etc. In any culture, any country etc - you will get a spectrum of men on that aspect. The onus is therefore on the woman to tell the difference and choose wisely - and if she has chosen poorly and dated a loser who gives her a relationship that spawns many horror stories: then I think the woman has got to take some responsibility for having chosen poorly and exercised bad judgement.
DeleteLastly, the generally rude and uncouth opinions voiced online should perhaps be taken as the loud voices of the minority and not the majority who are mostly reasonably polite about their opinions.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that Singaporean men who label Singaporean women as materialistic and SPG are generally insecure and at the same time have very unrealistic expectations of Singaporean modern independent women. If they expect their future spouse to play the traditional role of a submissive, child-bearing, cooking, cleaning, family care-taking wife, then they should not even be looking for one amongst the modern independent women. They should be looking for women who hold the same values and beliefs as they do. There may not be as many Singaporean women these days who hold such values and beliefs as 20-30 years ago but I’m sure they still exist.
ReplyDeleteAs an independent woman, I look for partnership in potential spouse, a man who is supportive, share similar values and interests and most importantly, treat me as equal. When I prepare the meal, he does the dishes, when I do the laundry, he folds the clothes, etc. I believe in sharing values, interests as well as chores. And of course, there is the all-important Romance! And when I say romance, I don’t mean the fairy-tale romance of candle light dinner, flowers, etc. I find romance in talking about anything and everything under the sun with my boyfriend, me washing the dishes while he dries them, taking a long stroll holding hands after dinner, watching some chick-flick movie on the couch together (it’s a sacrifice from my bf’s perspective as he hates watching chick-flick and I love him for the sacrifice), etc. It’s all the intangible little things that a couple do together that make things romantic. And did I tell you, my bf is angmoh? And I met him after I moved to Canada as skilled immigrant and we’ve been together for over 4 years.
So, IMHO, Singaporean men will have to adjust their expectations, beliefs and behaviour to match the independent Singaporean women or these very women will just leave these men behind. Alternatively, look for women who live up to their expectations of a traditional wife’s role.
Well said. A good match is all about finding a partner who is compatible with you so domestic life will work out well - like two pieces of a jigsaw that fit perfectly together. It shouldn't be a war zone. "Pick up your dirty socks! How dare you leave your dirty socks on the kitchen floor! etc"
DeleteAiyoh, I think that Singaporean women are equally guilty of some of the charges! Most of my female married colleagues cannot cook n relegate all the housework to their maids. On the maids' day off, the whole family descended on their parents n in laws for meals. Those without maids eat out, takeaway or rely on tiffin carriers catering and PRC part timers to do their housework. In this way, everybody's happy cos nobody need to do housework.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I agree that Singaporean men and also women need to move out of their parent home. I know a lot of my male n female friends who are in this situation, do not do any housework. From young, they are discouraged from doing it and overtime, laziness n a sense of entitlement take over.
Like you, I have nephews, two of them who do not do any housework at all. One is 34 n the other is 28 yrs old. Their mother ie my sister who is working, do all the housework, everything n even bought them breakfast n dinners although their home is a mere 100m away. And they are not grateful at all. Although they are drawing better pays than my sister, they don't contribute to the household expenses. She foots everything, pub bills, broadband, tel, everything! I asked my sister why and she said that I don't understand as I am not a mother. It is one big reason why I don't want any kids!
Groan, Wendy, I don't get your sister. I don't. Like totally.
DeleteBut good point: if a couple can afford to pay for a maid, that changes the equation about housework - but what about everything else, like the sexist expectations about the role of a woman? It does extend beyond housework you know.
WOW! So many comments...and great to hear from the guys that they too have horror stories about the stereotypical SG male..
ReplyDelete"Tom" does take the cake - out of curiosity, E, are "Amy" and "Tom" still together? I sure hope not! And whaddya know? "Amy" was set up by on a blind date by her friend too; sometimes it's just not that easy to say no to friends and you know that they do mean well, but their cup of tea just might not turn out to be yours. Yes, I agree in hindsight that going on blind dates are not a good idea, but we all learn from our mistakes and chalk it down to the roller-coaster ride that is Life. At least now I do know better and I can turn them down with a valid reason, "Remember the time when XX sent me up on a blind date?..."
wendy sands is right that ladies are "equally guilty of some of the charges". In the case of the couple I mentioned earlier (the ex-colleague and his wife who don't share common interests and similar viewpoints), the wife didn't know how to cook, so the husband took over and apparently he used to do most of the chores too. A female friend of mine, who got married earlier this year, is still staying at her in-laws' place while they wait for a flat and it is her mother-in-law who cooks, cleans and scrubs, which I don't exactly agree with, but well, as long as they are happy, that's all that matters.
As you can see from all the comments, it is a whole slew of factors that is leading to the rising number of singles, but mismatch of expectations seems to be the major reason. Until this gap is bridged, the number of singles will just keep rising. But hey, perhaps with your blog post, you might have just educated a whole bunch of SG men and women as well on "The No-Nos of Dating / Relationships" and the pitfalls to avoid. Having said that, just like you, I would love to hear more horror stories from both sides; it's always nice to know that you are not the only one.
Yes Wendy is right - I keep saying that a) Singaporean women can be equally hopeless domestically and b) Singaporean women need to take responsibility for having made bad choices and exercised poor judgement which have led to these 'horror stories'.
DeleteYes there is a big mismatch of expectations but I don't think the number of singles is rising because of it - the number of singles are rising because people are putting off marriage because they would rather focus on their careers. We're merely evolving as a society - our priorities are changing with the times. I will do a summary post coming up soon (this is such a big and interesting topic).
But do keep the horror stories coming, we love reading them :)
For English lessons on asking out the modern, confident and articulate Singaporean woman, please review this video:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wCmMrRX3UM&feature=relmfu
Hi Lim Peh,
ReplyDeleteI am a 26 years old Singaporean who dislikes the gov's policy of importing foreign talents, but for some reason, my inner circle of secondary school friends happened to be foreigners from all parts of Asia who have been in Singapore for the past decade. Now that when i look back at it, i figured the reason why the group of us became best of friends was because we were highly independent and we know what life means - taking charge of your own life and not whine about things. My secondary school friends have to cook for themselves, do housekeeping, iron their own uniforms and even check themselves into a hospital when they were bloody sick. They learnt to keep check of their own finances to make sure that they spend on only what is needed before the parents remit fresh funds periodically.
All these are valuable life survival skills that we had already picked up since young. Being highly independent and responsible in life. I feel that these are the skills that most locals lack. They seem to be more childish.. like they have not grown up from some fairy tale where they still have their parents taking care of them.
To be honest, I find myself unable to click well with most locals from my generation, especially those highly domesticated locals who have very little exposure to the outside world, because they tend to whine at every small thing and they never seemed to have grown up. The local girls around me seemed to be in aghast whenever i say i know how to cook, or i have to mop the floor at home. They would cast seriously disapproving look at me, like i am the uncoolest person earth and say, "i don't cook or do housework. only my mother/maid does. so ma fannn". On the other hand, local guys have morphed into some metrosexual spineless character from those chinese idol dramas where the girl is the more domineering party in the relationship - look at the number of boys carrying a girl's handbag on orchard road. Whatever happened to masculinity? i wonder.
i've dated a few foreigners and a singaporean man - asians bred in angmoh countries, asians bred in singapore and i came to the conclusion that people who had move out and really lived alone are much better because they have been conditioned to be independent at a young age. Our local men who have been living in their comfort zone need to be more man in order to attract girls. Don't tell me NS has make Singapore Men more Man. NS just simply trained a bunch of boys to take instructions properly. Anyway, in short - it's back to basic animal instinct - female wants to find a man who can take her hand. But it seems that like our local pool of men lack of these qualities.
anyhow, i'm getting married to an Asian by the end of year and migrating to his home country next year. i'm excited about the new life that awaits for me while my parents are scared to death that i'm moving to a country full of terrorists and social unrest. Duh. whatever. Live life people, at least i have something to fill the chapters of my life book.
l would like to end this comment with a quote from the "shape of my heart" by noah and the whale.
"For your heart is like a flower as it grows,
And its the rain, not just the sun that helps it bloom,
And you don't know how it feels to be alive,
Until you know how it feels to die"
Thanks limpeh, for digging out such worrying social patterns in singapore.
Hi - thanks for your comment. Good points about moving away from one's parents in order to grow up and experience independence.
DeleteNS doesn't make men grow up at all! Growing up, being independent means taking responsibility for your actions and in NS, there's the complete opposite of that. You follow orders, you check and double check what the protocol is and follow SOP - there is virtually no room for any kind of individual initiative as the soldier does his best to fit into the system and does everything the SAF way. Having said that, yes I served 2 years 4 mths of NS and I did learn a lot about getting along with people you have to work with - but it's a different kind of skill, it's not growing up per se. Growing up is about functioning like an autonomous adult responsible for yourself - just like the foreign students you talked about who learnt how to manage their finances from a young age, now that's responsibility and it's only by taking on responsibility as such that we can grow up, mature and become properly adult.
The fault lies with the parents and culture - but I do hope that Singaporean men will wake up and smell the coffee. After all, if they remain immature and continue to turn off Singaporean women ... I am hoping that *some* of them will be smart enough to realize that something is wrong and try to rectify the situation.
After all, if they don't, they risk pissing off the woman they love and that will hurt. Bad. Can you imagine? Singaporean guy falls totally in love with the girl of his dreams and she turns around and says, "piss off, you're an immature boy tied to your mother's apron strings, I need a man not a boy." Ouch. The threat of suffering a blow like that, to have one's heart broken like that - shouldn't that be enough to motivate Singaporean men into action?
...or will they simply lower their standards and go for mail order brides instead?
The debate continues!
Again, I want to stress that its all about expectations. If a Singaporean man's expectation is that his wife obeys, cooks, cleans, bears children and takes care of the family, then going for a mail order bride isn't such a bad idea. The expectations would more likely be compatible: Husband provides, wife obeys, cooks, cleans, bears children and takes care of the family in return for security. And this to me is compatibility, its not lowering of standards per se. There is no way that he is going to be happy marrying an independent woman because there are bound to be issues. Either the husband or the wife has to adjust his/her expectations and also their values and beliefs. But with the new found independence that was not found before during our parent's generation, there is no way an independent woman who has already had a taste of independence will ever regress to being the submissive obeying wife. Its like privacy, once you've experience it, you can never "un-experience" it ever again. So, its up to the man to adjust their expectations or go for mail order brides.
DeleteHave you seen those mail-order bride couples? They exist and it's like ... it's not like I wanna be cruel, but it's quite sad really. I don't think the matter is that simple really: after all, culturally, Singaporean men are still very different from these mail order brides and yes whilst they have succeeded in getting certain things they want (an obedient woman who will play the role of the traditional wife) - they sacrifice a lot.
DeleteI've seen one such couple in Britain and the wife barely speaks English... and the man is almost embarrassed about her because his mail order bride speaks broken English and the thought that comes into my head instantly is "how do the two of you communicate if you don't speak Mandarin (her language) and she barely speaks English?" And I started chatting with her in Mandarin and he was like, "don't speak to her in Mandarin, she needs to be encouraged to improve her English, she will never improve her English if she is allowed to speak Mandarin". And I'm like, woah I will speak whatever language I want - you two deserve each other. Like, okay maybe he gets a power trip from bossing his wife around like that - but is that any substitute for real love, communication and finding a true soul mate? He doesn't have a soul mate - he has a mail order bride. Yes, there is an opportunity cost involved and the men who choose that route do realize it. There is no love, say good bye to love if you wanna go down that route - call me romantic if you must, but love is such a wonderful feeling and to sacrifice it?!?! Woah.
Hi LIFT,
DeleteJust to share, I have observed some mail-order-bride couples at close range as a paeds nurse. Often (not all) the man does NOT feel that it is a sacrifice to go for a mail-order-bride, instead he feels proud that he can "afford" a (usually) beautiful woman who obeys and "respects" his every wish. Such couples pass on their 重男轻女 (patriarchal) mindset in how they treat their male offsprings differently from their female offsprings. As a nurse observing their family dynamics, I felt sorry for their daughters. Occasionally though, you will have a man who is embarrassed that his mail-order bride is clueless (sometimes even more clueless than him) about how to nurse their newborn baby and that she has difficulty understanding our explanation in English, Mandarin or other languages (often end up using a combination of demonstration, drawings/pictures and mock "sign language"). It becomes obvious that the communication between the couple is really limited. But what to do? At least he tries to bridge the gap and makes her feel comfortable -- for that I give him some respect.
So LIFT, not every husband of a mail-order-bride will feel that it is a sacrifice to go without love/romance or a connection between souls. You see, some do not consider love/romance/soulmate a necessity to a happy life.
Cheers, WD.
I agree with Winking Doll about some men with mail-order brides. To add, they may think that being able to provide for their wives is love and having a family (being married and have kids) is being happy.
DeleteHmmm. I think the saying "you never miss what you never had" applies here. I remember trying to explain what Longan is to an Angmoh who has never tasted the fruit. (I love Longans - one of my favourite fruits!) Try explaining what a Longan tastes like to someone who has never had it - it is quite a challenge. Sure I can describe what it looks like (easily enough) - but what it tastes like?
DeletePerhaps such is the nature of true love. I can desire longans, I can miss the taste of fresh longans because I have had it, enjoyed it and remember how wonderful it is. But for my white friend who has never ever encountered that fruit - how can he know what he is missing? Likewise, for the men who go for mail order brides, well - they've never had true love so they won't miss it. You don't miss what you've never had - the same way my white friend neither desires nor misses longans the way I do.
Hi Limpeh!
ReplyDeleteOmg... awesome post la. When I first read it I was like "FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!" haha.
I thought I was the only one who found Singaporean guys childish, immature, whiny and so on plus I'm only 18 so many people discount my views. I used to think that was because the guys that I met were snags (Sensitive New Age Guys) and unfortunately I realise that there are many of these snags in Singapore.
Well snags are basically guys that are very sensitive (usually about themselves rather than sensitive to those that they are around) and reading the accounts of other poor women has just reinforced this kind of prevalence in Singaporean men. Somehow they think that the world revolves around them and for some, they expect people to serve them.
Take my brother for example. He relies a lot on my parents (granted, he is only 17 this year) but it is his behaviour when handling simple things that disturb me. It's like, let's say he has something on at 12, which isn't really the time for breakfast or lunch, yet he expects the family to all fit his schedule ie we go out for brunch so that my parents can fetch him to where he has to go. On the other hand, (I don't know whether this is because I am a middle child thus supposedly more independent) I am the kind where I settle my own meals, own transport, own finance... And right now I'm staying at a hostel in a local university and I am loving the freedom sooooo much to the extent where some weeks I don't even bother going home.
And regarding the NS thing, I agree with one of the comments above, where it doesn't make a guy more "man". My friend recently went overseas for his army training and I was quite appalled by his behaviour... The first thing he did was to send me a long message on how the place was like, how he was doing and feeling. Granted, I was his friend so I entertained him (but through whatsapp why waste money on smses) and he was just like, just sms me it's alright at least I have some company, which made me feel so turned off like hello?! It's just slightly less than a month you're not going to die there don't be so dependent can you grow up but I couldn't tell him that as he is well, a snag I guess. Though I'll probably tell him when he comes back so that hopefully he'll be less needy in the future!
And in uni I guess maybe the two year gap helps to bridge the differences between guys and girls a little better in terms of maturity, but for those whose mindsets remain unchanged, there's really nothing to do about it, sadly. Which makes me wonder, is this why more girls are getting together? It is not uncommon at all to see lesbian couples in Singapore. I asked my friend (she has a girlfriend) whether she will date a guy in the future, and she said yeah why not, if the 'right' guy comes along. Speaking to my other friends who aren't straight as well (there are really so many), it's like they are all waiting for someone who basically sounds like the non-Singaporean guys that are romantic, caring, independent etc.
Where to find Singaporean men like that?
Well guess I have to keep an open mind (and an open heart I guess) and hopefully there are "normal" men out there that aren't petty, reliant or sensitive...
Thanks Limpeh for your awesome posts once again!
PS The one on the deaf community was good; I have a deaf friend in NUS and he tells me he's the only deaf student there apparently, though there are students that are hearing impaired. Makes me wonder what makes a good uni a "good" one...
Hi Q,
DeleteI am the middle child too, and perhaps that contributed to my having an independent mindset from young. I too stayed in the hostel with my elder sister throughout my university days. Initially she tried to "mother" me and I finally told her that we are about the same age (only 1 year difference) so there was no reason why she has to be "responsible for me". Since then, we hit it off quite well. Just to share from my experience, with such an independent streak, and a mother with "life scripts" (in her mind) for each of her children, you may have to brace yourself for a rough ride to independence. See my story of moving out for example.
http://winkingdoll.blogspot.ca/2012/07/a-love-story-part-9.html
Btw, I think the friend you asked may be bisexual rather than lesbian per se. Lesbians are only sexually attracted to females. According to my bisexual friends, the gender does not matter, what matters is the relationship between the partners. Thus, even if they were dating males/females casually for the moment, if there is someone special (regardless female/male) comes along, they would consider the new person. IMHO, the bisexuals are the most non-discriminatory, but then one has to be born that way, it cannot be "cultivated".
Cheers, WD.
Hi and thanks for your reply. I have 2 points for you in reply.
ReplyDelete1. NS doesn't help a man grow up at all. You are told exactly what to do, what to wear, what time to get up, what time you're having meals etc. There is absolutely no room for manoeuvre, you do exactly what you're told. Isn't that just like what it was like when we were very young and our parents didn't trust us to make our own decisions? Can you imagine a mother asking her 5 year old child, "what shall we have do dinner tonight?" No, I would worry that we may end up having marshmallows, cheesecake, chocolate milkshake and strawberry ice cream for dinner instead of a well-balanced meal with fruits and vegetables. I remember when I was like 8 years old and we were going to some outdoor event and I wanted to wear my jeans and my mother simply overruled me, "you must wear shorts, it's outdoors, too hot for jeans" - and she was right - I wasn't allowed to decide what I could wear as an 8 year old as I was not sensible enough as a kid then.
Now we're treated precisely like that in the SAF - such are the very strict rules about how we wear our uniforms, you break the rules and you get into big trouble. We are so treated like little children during NS, we don't think, we're not allowed to think, we simply follow orders the same way good little children do as they're told by their parents. We're infantilized big time through that ritual. http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/avinology-and-ns-in-singapore.html
So no, the 2-3 year gap between Singaporean men and women at university level doesn't bridge the gap at all, it's not age per se but rather, it's what you do with those years. Some Singaporean men grow old but don't grow up - it's because they are infantalized by the SAF and then their own parents, now I can see why the SAF wants obedient soldiers who merely follow orders without questioning, but fucking hell, parents in Singapore need to wake their fucking ideas when it comes to infantilizing their adult male children. It's bad parenting - and you see the product manifested through these horror stories.
2. You're wrong about the lesbians lah. Lesbians have always been around in Singapore but you're born a lesbian. Either a woman desires another woman or she doesn't - you don't You don't start dating women and having lesbian sex just because the men around you suck big time - you merely remain single or do what the rest of these women do: date foreigners! Heck, no shortage of FTs in Singapore, right? I suspect if you feel this way, you'll end up dating a foreigner and end up marrying one :)
With regards to how/why do Singaporean women date such horror stories, I just want to re-post something that Jen Lee commented on 13 September 2012 13:48 on "What Singaporean women think of Singaporean men"
ReplyDeletehttp://limpehft.blogspot.ca/2012/09/what-singaporean-women-think-of.html
Jen wrote: "From conversations with my friends, I have learnt that they view dates as a way of getting to know the guy better, but the guy strangely thinks this automatically means that they are interested in him."
I share her experience. For me a date (or several dates) is to get to know the person's personality first. Then if that's ok, we can get to know each other's values better and so forth. It still does not mean that I am "interested" in him as a significant partner. I am "slow to warm up" on that front.
[It catches me by surprise on the rare occasion(s) that it happens,
e.g. http://winkingdoll.blogspot.ca/2012/09/met-someone-interesting.html ]
To illustrate the typical stages of dating...
A date/chat over tea/coffee = I don't think you are a creep or a jerk, so it is often good to expand my social network.
A date/chat over a meal = I would like to observe more about your personality and/or social graces. Btw, yes, I observe very carefully your body language when interacting with the servers (waiter/waitress) because I want to see how you view people "beneath" yourself.
Subsequent dates/chats over meals/movies = I would like to observe more about your general attitudes towards life and other people.
Subsequent dates/outings = Ok, your company is pleasant enough to hang out with.
Visit my premise = Ok, you're "safe" (i.e. not some weirdo or psycho or creep or jerk) enough that I am ok to share with you how I live my life. Btw I may do a bit of tidying up, but no major "clean-up" for me. If you like what you see, good. If you don't like what you see, please move on.
Visit your living premise = I would like to find out how you live your life, especially if you are a slop or a mummy's boy or your sisters' darling little "baby" brother.
If I invite you to my home alone and cook instant mee or heating up some frozen food or leftovers: If it is after a great dates/outings together, then I am checking out if you expect to be treated like a "king" even when we are both equally tired. Otherwise, i.e. you came to my door hungry, that means I feel sorry for you that you cannot manage your own basic survival -- i.e. you're not likely to get a subsequent solo-date with me.
If I invite you to my home alone and cook specially for you (i.e. a proper meal, not instant mee or heating up some frozen food or leftovers): then yes, I may be interested enough to make an effort to impress you. In addition, I would like to hear your life story at a location where you can take your time to tell me about it (i.e. no time pressure to leave).
As you can see from the above, a lot of the initial "dates" are IMHO really just informational gathering at a "natural" pace. But the men often take it that I am "interested". Sometimes they give me the "hurt" look when I talk as if we are merely ordinary friends or acquaintances. Or worse, they start going down their checklist of potential-spouse filtering-questions!!! [E.g. "How much money do you earn?", "How much money do you spend a month?", "How often do you buy new clothes?", "What is your highest education?" Yikes!]
Groan. This is what I mean about Singaporean men being clueless about dating!!! It's because they have to suddenly shift gears and change directions to go from "you cannot talk to girls, a girlfriend will distract you from your studies and make your life misery!" to "quick get a wife and have kids!" - that's why you have these Singaporean men who have never ever had a girlfriend all throughout their student/NS days and then suddenly, as working adults, they try to start dating but they are starting from ZERO with virtually no experience to go on and this desperate need to please their parents by finding a wife ASAP. Hence this attitude - which makes them probably quite unpleasant to date. After all, romance doesn't come naturally - practice makes perfect and these Singaporean virgin men have nothing to offer in the romance department.
DeleteHello Winking Doll,
DeleteYou seem critical of men who have a "checklist of potential-spouse filtering-questions" like "How much money do you earn / spend?", "What is your highest education?", etc.
However, have you considered that you aren't terribly different from them? Some men ask those questions directly, whereas you observe the behaviour of whomever you are dating. Both are "informational gathering" in different forms.
There's nothing wrong with "informational gathering", but please do not apply double standards.
Hi Puppet,
Delete> please do not apply double standards.
I beg to differ. Observing behaviour is to gain OBJECTIVE first-hand data to understand if values are similar or otherwise. IMHO, asking questions and taking the answers at face value is a pretty unreliable way of gaining important and sensitive information about your potential mate. The answers you get are SUBJECTIVE self-evaluation by the person giving you the answers. What makes you think that the other person would tell you the truth? Even if he/she has no intention to lie, does he/she have enough self-awareness to honestly appraise his/her own situation? E.g. I know of people who are/were perpetually in-debt and yet will deny their poor personal financial choices. E.g. I also know of wealthy friends who will never leak the truth about their family background until they consider one safe enough for their "inner circles".
In any case, IMHO, questions such as "How much money do you earn / spend?" are rude when one is only starting to get to know one's date. Didn't your parents/elders teach you that it is rude to ask people about their personal finances? Haven't you heard of the Chinese phrase 谈钱伤感情 ["talking about money will hurt the relationship"]? Anyway, what makes you think that the woman is not financially independent or expects to live-off her future husband? I want to point out that your comments implicitly assume that the man is always the one footing the household bills, but frankly IMHO it is probably a reflection of the circles that you hang out with. Amongst my circle of friends (we are talking about my generation where double-income families are the norm), most contribute equitably (e.g. an agreed % of income) to the household expenses, some women even bring home the bacon on-top-of having to care for the family. IMHO, men are as prone to being bad at personal finances as women. Just take a look at the 4 common downfall of individuals -- 吸喝嫖赌 ["smoke/drugs, alcoholism, promiscuity, gambling"] -- are there more men or women afflicted with such major downfall?
As for "What is your highest education?", please lah, what can you deduce from a piece of paper? I have seen street-smart non-graduates, and dumb-ass graduates. So really, what is the point of the question? Or are you still stuck in the LKY's mentality of "men must marry down, women must marry up"?
I am not saying that there is no value in asking questions of one's potential mate, but one has to ask intelligently. There is such a concept as "doing the right thing, at the right place, at the right time" [天时，地利，人合]。Is it the right thing, place, and time? That's for you to gauge. If you don't get subsequent dates, then the answer is you've dropped the ball.
Cheers, WD.
1. I wonder if you really understood my point about not applying double standards. My point is NOT about whose method of gathering information about a potential mate is more accurate or objective. I'm suggesting that it is hypocritical to criticise men who have "checklist of potential-spouse filtering-questions" when you have a checklist too. You wrote that you prefer men who have social graces, respect people of lower societal status, don't "expect to be treated like a king", etc.
DeleteOn a side note: I don't know the most objective way of getting such information, but I think that observation isn't foolproof either. EG: You observe that XYZ is rude to a waiter, but he could be polite to his friends and relatives. If you only observe one side of XYZ, you may make the wrong inference about him.
2. I can agree with you that questions about money are rude when "one is only starting to get to know one's date". I've expressed that in my reply to Limpeh on 14 Sep 2012:
"...I do not recommend / support his behaviour, but his concern (about materialism / excessive spending) should not be brushed aside. Otherwise, it will lead to "mismatch of expectations" about spending habits as you mentioned. You committed strawman fallacy when asserting that I've "missed the whole purpose of a date", because I did not suggest that such concerns must be addressed on a first date..."
One should avoid discussing money matters on a FIRST date, but that does not mean it is always unacceptable to do so; there'll be a mismatch of expectations if a couple doesn't examine such issues. Avoiding financial issues to not "hurt the relationship" is hiding from reality, like an ostrich burying its head in the sand.
While women generally splurge on shoes, handbags, clothes and cosmetics, I agree that men are prone to wasting money on "smoke/drugs, alcoholism, promiscuity, gambling". However, concluding that "men are as prone to being bad at personal finances as women" is no excuse for not talking about finances, or for anyone to spend excessively.
3. You claimed that my "comments implicitly assume that the man is ALWAYS the one footing the household bills". I think you've slightly misread my comment on 13 Sep 2012: "...the bills are OFTEN paid by the men". I did not deny that there are women who contribute an agreed % of income to the household expenses. Women complain that they have to earn while taking care of the family, and so men should be doing some housework. Fair enough if women who work are also paying the bills, but this doesn't seem to be the case for many couples. (Let's not argue whose circle of friends is more representative of most couples.)
4. I think you've gone too far in claiming that I am stuck in the LKY's mentality of "men must marry down, women must marry up". Please don't tell me you inferred that from the question "What is your highest education?", because I did NOT direct that question to you; I quoted it from your comment to describe the kind of men you seem critical of.
Hi Puppet,
Delete> I think you've gone too far in claiming that I am stuck in the LKY's mentality
Do you have an axe to grind? You seem take my words out of CONTEXT just to launch straw-man attacks. Please read my FULL sentences/paragraphs and previous comments before jumping to conclusions. It looks to me like it's the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to going too far in making claims.
Let's look at the context of the "checklist of potential-spouse filtering-questions" question.
> I wrote on 16 September 2012 23:17: "As you can see from the above, a lot of the initial "dates" are IMHO really just informational gathering at a "natural" pace. But the men often take it that I am "interested"... Or worse, they start going down their checklist of potential-spouse filtering-questions!!!
So we are talking about INITIAL DATES here. IMHO, initial dates are where I decide if that person is someone I want to befriend beyond acquaintance level. Can I build trust with this person? Personally, I would focus on whether that person would make a good friend, and forget about whether the person would make a good spouse at this point. E.g. I would not care how my friends manage their personal finances, so it wouldn't bother me at this point as long as they are not borrowing money from me or making use of me for financial gains. E.g. Neither would I care what level of education my friends have so long as they are socially engaging. While there may be overlaps in the friend-vs-spouse checklist, there are differences between what I look for in a friend and what I look for in a spouse. So IMHO, I am not applying double standards when I was gathering OBJECTIVE DATA about a person who may be a potential FRIEND (and maybe potential spouse) compared with the "cut-the-chase" (a.k.a. "would you fit into my ideal of a spouse") questions posted by the men. If you have a different opinion of what constitutes acceptable questions when it comes to dating, go ahead -- I was not directing my comment at you specifically, nor am I here to change your ingrained opinions.
IMHO, each individual has a right to decide how they want to go about the dating game. I was merely expressing my opinion that someone with a focus on filtering potential-spouse at the initial dates would not fit my cup of tea. Maybe there are other women/men out there who would appreciate such "efficiency" in love/romance, but not me. So there, it is up to the individual, there is no right or wrong -- I was expressing my opinion and my honest feelings, nothing hypocritical about that.
You can disagree with me on the matter but yes, I value objective data above subjective data. IMHO, a person who treat those (in his opinion are) beneath him rudely is a reflection of his upbringing and value-system. If you think that is ok, sure, go ahead, that is your value system -- not my problem.
> You concluded thus at 27 September 2012 08:14, "but he could be polite to his friends and relatives. If you only observe one side of XYZ, you may make the wrong inference about him."
Sure, go ahead if that is your value system -- that it is ok to be rude to those beneath oneself, so long as one is polite to one's friends and relatives. I hold a different value belief. My belief is that, "You can tell the true grace of a man by how he treats his enemies and/or those beneath him." So even if a person (regardless man or woman) treats his/her friends/relatives well, if they treat strangers beneath them badly, then IMHO that person lacks social grace going by my value system.
So sure, by your value system, I am making the "wrong inference". But by my value system, I am making the "right inference" as to who I want as my friend/spouse. I am not here to argue which value system is superior. Go ahead, keep yours.
Now that we have gotten the "checklist of potential-spouse filtering-questions" out of the way, let's move on to your next straw-man attack.
Delete> You wrote on 27 September 2012 08:14 (bold emphasis added by me): One should avoid discussing money matters on a FIRST date, but that does not mean it is always unacceptable to do so; there'll be a mismatch of expectations if a couple doesn't examine such issues.
> In response to what I wrote on 25 September 2012 10:57 (bold emphasis added by me): IMHO, questions such as "How much money do you earn / spend?" are rude when one is only starting to get to know one's date.
First off, let me agree with you that a couple should at some point discuss about their finances. That said, please read what I wrote carefully. Did I say NEVER discuss money? Please don't put words into my mouth.
> I also wrote on 25 September 2012 10:57: Didn't your parents/elders teach you that it is rude to ask people about their personal finances? Haven't you heard of the Chinese phrase 谈钱伤感情 ["talking about money will hurt the relationship"]?
Do you understand what your parents/elders/Chinese-phrase are trying to teach when they said "it is rude to ask people about their personal finances"? Did they mean NEVER to talk about money, even with your future-spouse? To use an analogy, if your parents tell "you don't be naked with others around", are you going to take it out of CONTEXT and apply it as "don't be naked with others around in ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, and not even undress for sex with your spouse"? Please apply some common sense in understanding the CONTEXT of a statement(s). Again, you seem to have deliberately taken my words out of context just to raise a straw-man attack here.
> women generally splurge on shoes, handbags, clothes and cosmetics
DeleteI agree, most women do splurge on the above consumer items. That said, most men I know have specific (consumer items) "toys" that they splurge on too. E.g. Expensive photographic equipment (camera, lens, etc), expensive computer or electronic games equipment, expensive audio equipment (sub-woofer, surround sound), expensive mobile phones, etc, expensive cycling equipment, expensive fishing equipment, expensive scuba diving equipment... and the list goes on-and-on. I am not here to start a battle of the sexes on who wastes more money. IMHO, who splurges on what does not matter as long as each individual manages his/her personal finances to meet his/her personal financial objective; and in coupledom, the couple keep communicating about their shared budget/expenses openly to decide if they are on track.
Let's look at who foots the bill next.
> You wrote on 27 September 2012 08:14 (bold emphasis added by me): ...the bills are OFTEN paid by the men. ... Fair enough if women who work are also paying the bills, but this doesn't seem to be the case for many couples. (Let's not argue whose circle of friends is more representative of most couples.)
Based on my circle of friends, "the bills are OFTEN paid by the men" does not hold true. [I wonder if we have different ways to ascribe who pays the bills.] In addition, I question if your "but this doesn't seem to be the case for many couples" conclusion is fair. If you had qualified it to be based on your observations, then I have no bones to pick over your conclusion because my observations lead me to a different conclusion. So based on my observations, you have made 2 generalizations that are unfair in its conclusions about women.
As for the LKY's mentality of "men must marry down, women must marry up", ok I accept your explanation of your usage of my words.
DeleteIn conclusion, I have no issues with men/women having a checklist of what they want in their potential spouse. In fact, I have my potential spouse checklist too.
http://winkingdoll.blogspot.ca/2010/11/10-ground-rules-for-love.html
IMHO, each person has his/her unique checklist -- even if he/she never wrote it down or verbalize it; even if it is something as simple as "must have chemistry". It is the timing of the questions for which I had expressed honestly how I felt about how some of my dates went. If anyone finds me too critical, too judgemental, or whatever not, so be it -- everyone has a right to his/her own opinions.
What I do not accept is people putting words into my mouth and/or taking my words out of context and then attacking me based on his/her assumptions. If such behaviour continues, then I see no point in continuing a non-constructive discussion. It would be like 木鱼和金鱼 [different perspectives, neither is right or wrong].
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_MrxEZQlZo
1. Scope of discussion
DeleteYou claimed that you're talking about initial dates here. Yet you also wrote "Sometimes they give me the "hurt" look when I talk as if we are merely ordinary friends..." and this is a big hint that you're not talking about a first date: how can they feel hurt if they never had any previous contact / date with you?
That statement hinted that you did not intend to confine the discussion to ONLY initial dates, so you cannot accuse me of putting words into your mouth when I wrote "One should avoid discussing money matters on a FIRST date, but that does not mean it is always unacceptable to do so". Instead, blame it on your slip of the proverbial pen.
Your parents telling you "don't be naked with others around" is a false analogy. That advice has a specific context: "with others around", but the saying "谈钱伤感情" makes NO distinction between the context of a first date and that of a steady relationship. Again, I'm not putting words into your mouth since you did not clearly limit the context to ONLY initial dates; I'm free to discuss beyond that.
2. Double standards
You wrote: "I am not applying double standards when I was gathering OBJECTIVE DATA about a person... If you have a different opinion of what constitutes acceptable questions when it comes to dating, go ahead". But I never had any issue with your checklist for a good friend or spouse.
When I said that you're being hypocritical or applying double standards, I was NOT referring to the criteria on your "checklist" or your method of gathering information. Refer to my comment on 24 Sep 2012: "There's nothing wrong with "informational gathering", but please do not apply double standards."
Instead, I was referring to your BEING CRITICAL of men who have such a checklist when you have a checklist too. That's what I mean by applying double standards.
I elaborated on 27 Sep 2012: "My point is NOT about whose method of gathering information about a potential mate is more accurate or objective. I'm suggesting that it is hypocritical to criticise men who have "checklist of potential-spouse filtering-questions" when you have a checklist too..."
(I feel that either you didn't read my comments carefully, or you're trying to dodge this point I'm making by raising an irrelevant issue like "objective data about a person". But I'll focus on key issues ahead instead of accuse you of red-herring fallacy. Well, I guess I just did.)
3. Finances
DeleteBy the way, you have conveniently omitted the second part of that saying; the entire proverb should read "谈钱伤感情，谈感情伤钱". I think it's quite unfortunate if you were only taught the first half.
"who splurges on what does not matter as long as each individual manages his/her personal finances to meet his/her personal financial objective" is rather contradictory. If one thinks that it doesn't matter what he/she splurges on, then he/she is unlikely to achieve any financial objective. Any goal cannot be achieved just by luck; it takes conscious effort.
You wrote "in coupledom, the couple keep communicating about their shared budget/expenses openly to decide if they are on track". However, this happens only if both couples are committed to not splurge in the first place. If a couple subscribes to that "谈钱伤感情" mentality, then they won't bother to control their spending.
More importantly, tensions arise if both have different financial objectives, which I called "mismatch of expectations". If only one person is paying the bills, then I'm afraid the other person doesn't feel the pinch of paying and may continue to splurge.
"the bills are OFTEN paid by the men" and "...this doesn't seem to be the case for many couples" are parts of the same statement, not two separate ideas. You cannot argue that I've made two unfair generalisations about women based on your observations, otherwise I can also argue that based on my observations, women generally don't pay the bills. That's why I said "Let's not argue whose circle of friends is more representative of most couples".
You "wonder if we have different ways to ascribe who pays the bills". Here's my take: if my wife (I'm not married yet) spends on luxury goods such as shoes, handbags, clothes, cosmetics or excessive phone bills with her own money, then of course I've no say (though I'd express concern if I think it's reckless). If I'm paying for my wife's credit card bills, then I'll surely be upset if she's splurging on luxury goods.
Now, what's considered "splurging" depends not only on the amount spent, but also on my/her income level and how much of that luxury good she already has. For example, if she already has as many shoes as a caterpillar would have if it wears shoes, or has many new clothes which she hardly wears, then buying an additional pair of shoes or clothes is considered splurging.
However, if she's taking care of household chores instead of working, then to be fair, I'd let her spend more of my money than I'd otherwise, since she could have spent more if she's working. I'm not sure if you'll accuse me of treating her like a maid since it may sound like I'm indirectly paying her to do household chores. However, I don't see anything wrong with valuing her contribution; it'd be unfair to her if I don't. Moreover, I could have paid a maid to do those chores, but that money can't be spend on my wife then.
> Yet you also wrote "Sometimes they give me the "hurt" look when I talk as if we are merely ordinary friends..." and this is a big hint that you're not talking about a first date: how can they feel hurt if they never had any previous contact / date with you?
DeleteFreaking creepy! Men who assume that they have a "hold" over you just because you meet them again beyond the very 1st date! Mind you, those chaps had not even kissed me yet! Most had not even held my hands yet! None had established an agreement that we are dating-exclusively yet (i.e. not seeing other potential mates). But to think that Puppet is arguing that they have a right to feel that they have a "hold" over me. Freaking creepy!
LOL, I think Puppet has just illustrated why some Singaporean women will not choose to date some Singaporean men -- i.e. men who like to make assumptions like those made by Puppet above. Fret not though, not all Singaporean men are like that, otherwise I would not have 2 born-and-bred Singaporean brothers-in-law.
Ok, I am not going to reply to further to this line of comments. Obviously Puppet has very different views on how to manage relationships. I shall respect his right to his opinions.
My reasoning behind "how can they feel hurt if they never had any previous contact / date with you?" is not as far-fetched as you seem to imply. I just can't imagine a total stranger falling in love with you on a FIRST date and then feeling "hurt" when you don't treat him as a romantic friend. That's why I inferred that it's not the first time they've met you at the time they felt hurt or disappointed (when you rejected them as a romantic partner).
DeleteI did NOT argue that "they have a right to feel that they have a "hold" over me" (whatever that means), and I did NOT assume that they have kissed you or held your hand! This is your straw-man attack.
Instead of refuting my arguments or assumptions, you're calling me names like "freaking creepy" and the kind of man "some Singaporean women will not choose to date". You merely responded to my first point on scope of discussion and ignored the rest, so I guess you've nothing useful to say about the other points. But must you resort to calling me names (ad hominem)?
Let's turn this around: is it fair to say that you're the kind of woman some Singaporean men "will not choose to date" because you call people names when you feel like you're going to lose an argument?
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DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteThough I have just glanced through this article as well as other related comments and previous versions, it appears that there is a never-ending cycle of identifying the root cause and then coming up with the conclusion that leads to square one. As much as it is interesting to read about opinions and experiences, it would appear that the situation is at an impasse.
ReplyDeletePardon me for being blunt - I don't think this is productive at all. Though I do understand the merit of expressing opinions, feelings and sharing experiences - if it does not end up coming with a feasible solution in the end, the discussion is moot.
To put it in harsher words, all these typing is likely a waste of time, other than giving instant gratification.
Now then, the purpose of me writing here would be in the hopes to spur discussions about how to bridge the difference in expectation between perhaps the SG men and women (who seems to be the target population here), rather than another exposition of the existing situation which one could easily find somewhere else in the web.
However, a caveat that might render my contribution futile - I have absolute zero experience in terms of dating, relationships of this nature and what not (so I reserved my opinions in this matter, choosing to listen more before speaking).
But what the heck, I'll give it a shot anyway :-)
Hi and thanks for your comment.
DeleteSuch is the nature of social commentary - I can only analyse a situation, I can try to prescribe a solution but it would be so arrogant of me if I claimed I could solve all the social problems I talk about on my blog. Sometimes, I don't have an answer but it doesn't mean that I can't talk about it and have a discussion with my readers - they obviously enjoy discussing it with me (just look at the volume of the comments here and the lively discussion). Sometimes, that is enough for me, simply to generate a discussion amongst my readers.
my opinion is be in son or daughter, the singaporean parents expect their kids' other halves to be doing more than their kid, else they will feel that their kid is at the "losing end" or being taken advantaged of perhaps?
ReplyDeleteHello, nice to meet you, Mr Limpeh. I am Eugene, a recent polytechnic graduate. I stumbled onto your blog thru The Real Singapore today, one of your articles “What Singaporean women think of Singaporean Men” struck a chord with me. I felt that I should share my views because I also believe that some part of the fault should go to the teenagers as well, I will elaborate more, however it will cover mainly about the male view.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that the problem why Singaporean Men/Teenagers fair so badly in the dating scene could have stemmed from various factors like parents, lack of confidence and total cluelessness about dating.
I saw your post talking about how parents have harmed their children social health by mollycoddling them and due to their paranoia. That paranoia have manifested in a ugly way, they send their children to a same-sex school in fear that their children might end up screwing a girl and having a baby out of wedlock or just wanting their child to study hard and not be distracted.
In my opinion, I find this to be stupid, they have harmed their child’s interaction skills because they have no knowledge on how to interact with female due to not even knowing one to begin with (until they move to JC or Polytechnic or a Mixed school) and still this does not guarantee that he wouldn’t have a baby out of wedlock.
Both female and male both operate on different spectrum too. Females are more passive aggressive individuals who tend to be not so open about their hatred, and they bully people in a more manipulative way unlike boys who are more aggressive and are much more open with their attitude, confront you and use violence etc. When they finally go into JC, polytechnic or ITE. HUZZAH suddenly everything change, there are some who could adapt easily, well most of them take quite a while or never develop it, they will be quite disadvantaged when compared to someone who have a mixed school background. I find it extremely hard to explain this accurately, but let just put it in such a way, you raise a cat in a human home kind of environment then you suddenly toss him back into the wild, how do you expect him to survive? Some of them might survive, but a good amount of them will perish.
Furthermore, for most people, their only female they know is your mother, aunt, sisters and grandmother, which is not a great reflection of the generation of the female they will interact on a daily basis when they go JC or work etc. It is like using a 1980s approach of dating to deal with a 2000 dating world. It wouldn’t work, the world today is different.
I have friends who are great at interacting with people, but when interacting with people from the different sex, totally clueless or they play the “as long as I am nice to her, she will somehow fall in love with me.” Well I am not saying not to be nice but some people took that advice too far and do their work for them, constantly message them (clingy) and lot of other stuff which sort of put the girl on a pedestal and make the guy look like a needy individual.
I will end here with a real-life example because I think I wrote too much and I always have difficulty expressing my viewpoint thru words, I do better by showing example.
Friend A – Good looking, RI student, good socialiser. Ultimate package, girls like him.
Friend B – Average looking, neighbourhood school, good socialiser too.
Friend A was the ultimate package, he come from a prestigious school, smart, likeable, sporty and sociable however, he only manage to get 2 relationships, all of those collapse very quickly with 3 months. Why? He place them on a pedestal, he will always pay for their meals in restaurants, pay for the movies. (Not that I opposed, but don’t do it every time la.), he don’t stand up for himself, always compromising, the list goes on. In summary, he became a doormat, which is quite sad actually.
Friend B knows how to handle girls in general, came out confident (dare to go out and ask for girl’s no., you don’t see that in Singapore often), he know how to handle himself and pretty much don’t take crap attitude from girls. Don’t like me? Play hard to get? No problem. Hook up with another girl next week, he never change himself when pursuing a girl. Unlike A, he is not a doormat, he know how to stand up for himself, he is street smart and what people would call a player/ jerk etc.
ReplyDeleteThe only similarity between them? They are good socialiser. Apart from them, they are miles apart in terms of dating. When friend A broke up in a relationship, all he did was whine and say “NICE GUY FINISH LAST” instead of analyzing what went wrong and asking B for advice. B is now happily settled in a long term relationship while A is still single.
Writing down some of the points are hard as some of them are usually better off said as it is very hard to put them down in words.
I will conclude here for now. Thank you for reading!
Maybe you can help me understand my friend's comment after I shared your post (which I highly recommend) on my fb page:
ReplyDeleteI just read this. He's entitled to his opinions, but he's a joke. He's comparing us to people with more open cultures? why not asians with asians? It's like comparing a lawyer's speaking skills with a librarian. I'm naturally a big mouth, and Im capable of conversing well. I cook, I clean, and at 21 years old in an under middle class family, I saved up 20+ k by myself. I am the only child and I'm faithful to my parents.
That being said, I honestly rather not date a modern woman. Why? Simply put, a modern woman's priorities are different. I want my child to grow up with traditional values and know about filial piety and grow up with his/her mother and the grandparents playing a core value in his life. You know why they always said Asian kids grow up more disciplined compared to Ang Moh children. And you'll also understand why we are considered more " Conservative"
Reiterating my point in a more down to earth context, a local modern girl most likely is more open to sex, clubs, drinks and whatnot ( may not be entirely true). Do I do that? No. Why should I settle for someone not on the same frequency as me? It boils down to upbringing. I enjoy life as it is, and honestly, call me inferior or what not, I will not be happy with someone with such an attitude as in the long run, it will strain my family and alter my child's perspective on life.When I have a child, I absolutely DO NOT want him/her to think it's alright to club and fuck freely. He can call me inferior, or having a backward mindset, but keep in mind that I can bring up a family with a wife that has not slept with numerous men/ dated like a 7/11 machine.
In conclusions, would I want to wake up and date/marry a modern woman, like let's say yourself, or perhaps your friend? The answer is obvious. NO. I respect my mother and my father and I've seen them live happily and have a fulfilling life. They are each other's first, and so were my grandparents. It's a working solution, and I'd rather stick to it, marry a conservative woman and be happy rather than marry a "modern" woman and worry when she's out clubbing/drinking or whether she's high enough to go sleep around before returning home. As for careers, I'm more than happy to be the breadwinner in the house and let my wife have the duty of upbringing our child in a strict, filial manner, with strong emphasis on respect to elders and humility. I don't want a maid/nanny to take care while the career woman is out working. ( If you would want to say, why not grandparents take care, I reiterate the point about the author saying that we're adult-children living with our family, which is implying that we should keep away from them. Ergo, we should not let our children grow with them in fear that they might develop this "disease" ).
Hi Hweemin,
DeleteWell, what can I say, he's a male chauvinist pig stuck in the last century - he's obviously got the gift of the gab and is quite articulate, that's why he can defend his POV eloquently and whilst he is certainly entitled to his POV, I say girl, run - run away from someone like that if he is even vaguely interested in you.
At the end of the day, I am sure he would find some very traditional Chinese woman who has shares his POV and they would go on to raise a very traditional family. But if you don't like what he is advocating, then simply agree to disagree with him and leave him be.
Love is all about finding someone you're on the same wavelength with at the end of the day. I have unfortunately a dear friend in Singapore make a dreadful mistake - she was so desperate to win her parents' approval she married a traditional Chinese man (who sounds a lot like the guy you have quoted) as she thought he was the kind of husband they would approve of (well, they did, initially). But he treated her so badly and they fought so much (she is far too modern for him) that it ended up being a very unhappy marriage, it nearly ended in divorce when she got pregnant and now that there are children involved, she is stuck in a terribly unhappy marriage and even her parents are like, "we didn't force her to choose that horrible man, she made that choice not us". Groan.