I did offer Brian an answer in the comments section but I would like to elaborate on the issue in a bit more detail since it is indeed an interesting question indeed. Now firstly, before I begin, I'd just like to mention that I have had three scholarships as a student and have been through the application & interview process many, many times and that is why I feel I am able to offer some insight into the process. Please understand that I am not here to boast about being a scholar, but I feel it is necessary to mention this as background info so you know I am speaking as someone who has been through the system.
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| So many applicants, so few scholarships! |
Over the years, I have met a range of scholars throughout my time both at university as well as at work. Yes some are genuinely talented & intelligent whilst others were simply a product of very good spoon feeding. I would've thought that the whole process of the extensive interviews would have weeded out those who got there via "mugging" and those who are genuinely going to shine at university & beyond. But of course, an interview panel is made of human beings and humans make mistakes. There are so many straight A students and only so many scholarships - the challenge is to find the candidate who will make a good scholar.
What are the people on the interview panel looking for? Let me tell you about my granduncle - he doted on me when I was a child and wanted to encourage me to study hard. As he didn't speak any English, he couldn't help me with my homework. Instead, he would reward me with a 红包 each time I did well in an exam, thus giving me an incentive to work hard. Many students and parents mistake an interview panel as a doting granduncle - they are not there to reward students who have achieved good results. Hell no, they are businessmen. Scholarships are not handed out like 红包s to reward students with good results, that is not the purpose of a scholarship! After all, they are going to invest a lot of money in the scholar, they are concerned about one thing only: the return they are going to get on this investment.
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| Yes I had a generous granduncle. |
The return on investment on someone like Ben is going to be pretty poor if you are going to send him to university only for him to fail there. The interview panel has got to get beyond the straight As, beyond the good family background, beyond the possibly very good ECA/CCA records and try to get to know the subject to evaluate him - after all, there are so many good students applying for scholarships, you have to make sure you pick the right candidate for your scholarship, not someone like Ben who would've been better off say at NUS where he would've had the local support network of family and church. Somehow, the interview panel made a wrong decision and thought he would do well at university - this placed so much pressure and expectations on Ben's young shoulders and he ended up killing himself when he couldn't live up to all these expectations. Sigh, what a tragedy.
What these interview panels do is really not that different from what I do as part of my job - now I have been involved in HR/recruitment over the years as my bosses have recognized that I am very perceptive when it comes to candidates. I know how to cut through the bullshit, ask the difficult questions and verify if a candidate is worthy. I am not the decision maker when it comes to hiring, but I am the gate keeper you need to get past if you really want that job. Getting past me is half the battle won as I only allow worthy candidates past the gates to be put in front of the big boss. I don't give a shit about good results, I want to know if you are going to be able to work effectively in the company and how you would function in the working world.
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| I am very good at finding out how a candidate processes ideas. |
This is when I have the perspective that most students, parents and teachers lack - I am able to identify the most crucial factors which will determine if a person is able to function well in the work place. Whereas most students, parents and teachers are only interested in exam results - and whilst they are obviously an indication of a person's intellect, they only give us a part of picture and there are loads of people who may not have had the best journey as a student and have gone on to do great things.
How do I suss this out? I simply talk to them and present them with a situation - take this one for example: have a read about how Jessica blackmailed Mr Two here which involves seven people (Mr and Mrs Two, Mrs North, Jessica, the spa manager, the Romanian nanny and the new girl who got sacked). Now I would like you to rank all the characters in the story from the most guilty/evil to the most innocent - and then please justify your reasoning. You see, there are no right or wrong answers - but I can tell from the way they receive information, process information and then deal with a challenge like that.
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| Do you know how to explain your choices and ideas? |
I have spent much of today in a meeting with my boss and this consultant - my boss swears by him and says that he is the best in the business and okay, I default to my boss' opinion on this consultant. When I got back to my computer, I looked up this guy's profile on LinkedIn to find out a bit more about what he has done in the past and I saw that he went to the University of Brighton. Hmmm. It is currently ranked 64th out of 120 but in previous years it was ranked a lot lower. Certainly, it has never ever been in the upper half of the league table, never mind top quarter. Nonetheless, the consultant is doing extremely well for himself today despite having gone to a university that I can only describe as "below average". Why are we using him? Because we really don't give a shit where he was educated, all we care about is if he can solve the problems our company is currently facing in our current product development cycle and if he can, great! After all, he has worked for some very good offshore banks over the years - so we know that he is relying on his work experience to solve our problems, rather than his rather crummy degree from Brighton. I bet you he probably doesn't even remember much from his time at Brighton University.
Now I have talked a lot about how to handle interviews in another post I wrote earlier this year, so I shall direct you there for further questions on interview techniques. Whilst the article was written with job interviews in mind, the basic principles are still very much the same when it comes to scholarship interviews for the interview panel are trying to find out if you are just a mugger or someone who will go on to be an asset in their organization as a working adult. That's when we look at other aspects of the candidates life to find out more about what they're like as a person and that's why parents should always make sure their children have an interesting life beyond just studying.
Now I have talked a lot about how to handle interviews in another post I wrote earlier this year, so I shall direct you there for further questions on interview techniques. Whilst the article was written with job interviews in mind, the basic principles are still very much the same when it comes to scholarship interviews for the interview panel are trying to find out if you are just a mugger or someone who will go on to be an asset in their organization as a working adult. That's when we look at other aspects of the candidates life to find out more about what they're like as a person and that's why parents should always make sure their children have an interesting life beyond just studying.
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| Are you special or are you instantly forgettable? |
As my reader ASDF pointed out, Ben's case is an exception and most Singaporean scholars do go on to do well at university - well I should hope so! If the majority of scholars crashed and burned, then there is something seriously wrong with the selection and interview process. But unfortunately, some people do slip through the net, people like Ben and Sun Xu who should have never ever been scholars in the first place. Of course, the system isn't perfect and can always be improved but it does work most of the time.
So in essence, a scholar should be someone who is more than intelligent, more than a straight-A student, s/he should be someone whom you know is going to be a winner, who is going to give you a profit should you invest in his/her university education. Let's put some numbers on it - we shall assume that the scholar is going to Oxford. Now the annual fees in Oxford range widely - the lower end is about £13,200 a year for something like history or maths to about £27,550 for medicine and it rises to about £50,000 for MBAs. The full list of fees can be found here. There is also a college fee of £5920 a year. There could be other supplementary fees as well related to certain modules of your course So on fees alone, we're talking about a minimum of about £20,000 a year (S$40,000) and given that most BA courses take 3 years, that's £60,000 or S$120,000. Now add to that other perks that scholars normally get - living allowances, flights etc - that could easily exceed S$200,000 depending on a number of variables (choice of course, exchange rate, how generous the terms of the scholarship is etc). That's a lot of money invested in the scholar before s/he even has worked a day as an qualified adult.
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| An education here does not come cheaply. |
Now think about it - the company sponsoring the scholar could easily just hire a graduate instead of sponsoring a scholar. After all, there are plenty of students who attend great universities without a scholarship and they will be looking for work after graduation. Furthermore, scholarships are not given out on the basis of 'need' (ie. charity cases, where you help finance bright student from a very poor family who wouldn't otherwise be able to go to university) - a company would gladly give a scholarship to a student from a very wealthy family if they believe they are going to get a good return on their investment. Oh and after all that, you still have to pay the scholar a regular salary once they start working for you - it is only at this stage that the company starts seeing a return on their investment if the scholar starts performing really well.
Do scholars therefore give their employers an extra S$200,000+ of value? Some do, some don't - it all boils down to the panels at the interviews picking someone who will be so extraordinary you will be proud to have sponsored them. Someone like Eduardo Saverin for example - yeah he's a winner, but Sun Xu, hell no he's a big fat fugly loser. Obviously, there are substantially more winners than losers, otherwise these organizations wouldn't bother giving out scholarships if it wasn't giving them good value for money.
I hope that has answered your question.
Limpeh i know a scholar who failed, but it WASNT the fault of the selection process, it was bad choice of subjects.
ReplyDeleteHe was NJC Humanities Scholar in the 80s, but did badly in 1st year; scholarship was revoked & had to pay his allowance back.
At O-level he studied pure science + literature, but in JC besides lit & math, he took history + economics which were new to him.
Too much unfamiliar stuff + insufficient time = crash + burn.
Ironic thing is, if he didnt get the Scholarship, he wouldve continued with pure science & done better, as he did get his fair share of distinctions in them.
As ex-Humanities Scholar, you know this Scholarship is for Science students who see Arts as inferior, taking their cue from society.
But you give them "Humanities Scholarship" they will deign to read soft subjects without losing their sense of being in the elite, its like an easy way out.
That said, do you think the Humanities Scholarship program is a good idea that really helps those who get it, or just another status symbol in the prestige stakes? Thanks!
Yup, I remember in my time - many students were trying to see if they could get a humanities scholarship but if they couldn't get it they wanted to switch back to science. It was a mad gamble - but these kids didn't know what they wanted, they just knew the word 'scholarship' was desirable.
DeleteI wouldn't spit into the well I drank from - I benefited from the Humanities programme at VJC. They took very good care of me as a student then. However, it is down to the individual to decide if it is the right path for him/her. Quite frankly, it my time, it was pretty hard to get it anyway, I was in 93A51, supposedly the humanities class but really less than half of us were scholars, the other half were 滥芋充数 - they had applied for the programme and MOE said "no you're not scholarship material but you're welcome to stay in that class and study with the true scholars". There was a real sense of them vs us - you know what teenagers are like ...
Hi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteI happened to chance upon your blog a few days ago via a forum and words cannot describe how grateful I am for your advice on getting an education and standing out to employers. It resonates deeply with the thoughts I have painstakingly gathered after reading up and speaking to so many relatives and strangers for career advice.
A little bit of background info on myself. I am 21 this year, male, just completed NS and about to embark on my studies at the London School of Economics studying Economics. My parents will be funding my studies with much of their lifetime savings (we are just a average middle-income family in Singapore)and it took me months to push through with the decision to study at LSE. It was painful because I had to reject a Singapore govt statutory board scholarship to pursue Engineering/Economics locally. But right now, after reading your posts, I feel more certain than ever on my decision.
I am ambitious and I want to succeed in the finance sector. I want to earn big bucks and repay my parents for their belief in me and for dumping their hard-earned SGD 180k on my university education. I shall just be frank here and I would like to hear your honest opinions and advice. For the next three years in London, I am going to work my ass off for a first-class in my degree. I do have 6 months working experience in a asset management company (Fullerton Fund Mgmt) albeit in the operations department. Right now, I have a pretty good understanding of fund management industry and I will be reading up on Investment Banking and Trading next.
However, I do lack industry connections to pull strings for internships and jobs (my parents and relatives are all ordinary chinese folks) and also lack leadership experiences. Nevertheless, I will still try my best to secure an internship and subsequently a job. I will also try to involve myself in the leadership positions in the LSE Finance Society. I think in life, you need a special person to give you a chance, just to get your foot in the door and from then on it will be up to you to perform and impress. I hope I can find someone like that.
I would love to hear back from you.
Cheers.
Alex
Hi there, glad to hear that you like my blog. :)
DeleteYeah I can relate 2 u definitely, my parents are very similar to yours. I don't think you need to worry too much about trying to get a 1st class - 2:1 (second upper) is plenty enough and few people actually do manage to get a first class. Please don't be upset if you get a 2:1 for it is still a very good result ok?
Don't worry too much about what you learn at uni either - I mean if I had some intern try to impress me with what he did at university, I would be like, no, don't even try. That's course work vs the real world. I'd much rather employ someone who has shown some sparkle (eg. by winning an Olympic gold medal) rather than some swot who has mugged up on everything at university. Remember, when you work for someone, you have to learn a lot - nobody expects you to hit the ground running based on what you learnt at university.
So please, enjoy your time at LSE, do have loads of fun, interesting experiences and let me know how you get on.
Hey thanks for the reply :)
DeleteIt's kinda late back in Singapore now, but heck the Olympics are on haha.
Yup 2:1 is very good as well and I will be satisfied with the grades I get given my best effort. I agree with you on the point about the relevance of the actual course contents (especially micro/macroecons) in university - bare minimal. In the 6 months after ORD till now, I have learnt so much about finance on the job I am beginning to wonder whether it is a part-time job or an internship! But being kaisu Singaporeans, it is so hard to break out of the 'mugging' and there's a very tendency to revert back to the rote learning. Nevertheless, I will try my best to step out of my comfort zone and divert my extra time and energy for travelling and student societies and reading up on Finance!
Dude dude dude, like SERIOUSLY, listen to uncle okay? You cannot possibly predict what kind of company you will work for in the future and what kind of role they will assign you - a lot of it depends on supply vs demand. A company will decide: "we need someone who can do XYZ and ABC" and you will get the job if you can do XYZ and ABC. We will not look at your CV and decide that you 'deserve' a job and create a job for you.
DeleteThe job market is always demand driven in that sense, not supply led. There is never a perfect match of talent to jobs that need doing - so often it is a case of the employer deciding if the new guy is adaptable, can learn quickly and pick up new skills fast enough. No amount of reading can prepare you for that - it's just a question of embracing the challenge that is thrown at you and making the best of it.
So given that no amount of reading/learning can prepare you for that, then please - tolong lah. CHILL. Go watch some Olympics. Go out with your friends. Go shopping. Go makan. Go do something fun. Go lie on the beach. Go swimming.
And whilst you're in London, go do interesting things. I'm going to be totally blunt (and you will thank me for this in due course): us real financial professionals look at the bullshit that students do at university when it comes to their "societies" (like the LSE financial soc) trying to emulate the real world and we laugh at the students. Like hahahaha, do you honestly think what these students do at university is anything like the real world? Are you playing with monopoly money or what?
Here's my advice. When are LSE, don't waste your time networking with other students. Make friends with working adults outside your university - people who have already proven themselves to be successful.
Well said Limpeh. Seriously what many societies in schools do are too detached from the real world. Many structures are already there. The students are just there to run the event. Though to their credit I wouldn't say the event could be run on autopilot but largely so. Remember how student councils are run or the 'events' prefectorial boards are run??
DeleteHaving known how things run in the real world, I shun all these school leadership BS. They are too fake. I went on to join an environment organising committee outside of my school during my JC days and we spent 6 months in my A level year planning a national event from scratch. Along the way dealing with problems from logistics to sponsorship to even egos. It was a huge risk (considering weekly meetings during my A level year) but it paid off and no A was sacrificed
Part 4 http://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/university-season-4-working-as-student.html
ReplyDeleteHi Limpeh,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the insightful posts! I have been following your blog diligently for the past few months and really learned a lot from your experiences. Sorry for digging up such an old post but I think it would be more appropriate to ask here than a random, more recent post.
I am curious if you had to serve a bond for your scholarship(s) if any. I know there are bondless scholarships out there but they usually do not sponsor full degrees. Besides, on the topic of bondless scholarships, I'm curious as those scholarships seem to contradict your idea that scholarship boards are like businessmen 'investing' in scholarship holders.
A bit of a background about myself: currently I am a J1 student at one of the more "branded" JCs(i shall refrain from names in case someone figures out my identity:P). I have always been keen on finding out about the working world and thankfully I chanced upon your blog which has given me some inspiration since my relatives are clueless. However, I am still undecided as to what I would do as a career in the future. I have inclinations towards Psychology but am fairly certain I would not like to pursue it as my lifelong career, I have also considered the world of finance and more recently, the government sector.
I have been considering studying abroad, mainly the UK or possibly Australia. I have heard from other sources and recruitment officers that schools in UK such as Oxbridge, LSE etc are more focused on the theoretical aspects of economics. While that gives you some foundational knowledge and of course the weight that the university's name holds on your CV, I wonder if they are relevant to the real financial working world out there. My friend once said:"I think I study so much just to produce a cert and all it does is to show my employer that hey i can study." Thus I would like to hear some wise advice on your part (i have considered NUS but not too keen since I'm not a big fan of the environment here in sg and living overseas trains independence amongst other things like getting a broader perspective and picking up useful soft skills)
Another route that I have in mind is rather elitist but I don't know if its feasible. To enter into civil service and hopefully get fast tracked based on PSC schoarship (to read perhaps a degree related to econs in UK [i heard they are forced to read a masters in Bus Adm. idk how true that is]), work my ass off for a few years in ministries, hopefully do well enough to hop off to the priv sector in 8-10 years or less and then try to get posted overseas, while saving up on retirement haha. I don't know if that's rather far fetched but any advice would be great
Thank you :)
Hello there. My scholarship at degree level was bondless - they exist but they are rare. You see, it was awarded by my university itself; my university has always prided itself as a very international university, it draws upon the brightest brains from all over the world and it is this rich cultural diversity that creates a very interesting research environment. Imagine if a university mostly drew upon students from a small local catchment area in rural SW England, it would create a very different environment.
DeleteSo there had always been a number of scholarships issued to 'deserving' students from the Commonwealth world and I had a teacher in my JC who knew exactly what I should apply for - he essentially said, "if your parents can't afford to pay for your British degree, then here is what you should apply for." I was kinda blur-blur as a JC student and when a teacher believes in you like that, I was like okay I'll just do as I'm told and hope for the best. Believe you me, I applied for MANY scholarships and spent a LOT of time filling up forms. Only one scholarship awarding body said yes - the rest said no, but that's a good enough result for me.
Perhaps it was a bit cheeky of me to apply for a scholarship as I wasn't thaaaat poor - it was more a reluctance on my parents' part to pay for a British degree as it's so much more expensive than NUS. It was my way to guarantee that I did get to study in the UK rather than go to NUS (which I know is my parents' first choice for me). But did I wanted to go to NUS? No, I didn't. After NS, I was just so desperate to get outta Singapore.
Some universities do give away scholarships to poor, deserving students from 3rd world countries - these may be extremely brilliant students who simply do not have the money to come to study in the UK. The university invests in these students and hopes that they will then go on to become extremely successful and then the university can turn around 20 years later and say, "hey you know that president who delivered that economic miracle in that African country? Well he was a scholar at our university, we spotted his brilliance years ago and look what an amazing president he became." Yeah it's that kind of gamble they are betting on and in my case, given how laid back and lazy I am - they made a poor choice as I didn't end up mega-super successful or famous.
But there you go. Some British universities do have a great tradition of 'charity' when it comes to awarding scholarships to poor but deserving students who are extremely bright and show great potential.
I suppose at the age of 18, upon the completion of my A levels, yeah I suppose I did come across as a promising prospect. Nowadays I just wanna have more fun - travel more, spend more time doing stuff I enjoy and not work so hard since I am financially comfortable.
As for your career choices, I'm sorry but I doubt I can help as I don't know you personally. It's like asking me, what is nicer: chicken rice or laksa? Ask 10 Singaporeans and you will not be able to predict the answer to that question - whether you will get a 5/5 split down the middle or if more people will prefer laksa .... why? It' all boils down to your personal tastes and perspective. It's your life mate, it's not what the best route is, it is what will make you happy, what will be most suited for you.
I hope that makes sense, feel free to gimme a shout if you wanna chat more about it okay?
GAH. Logged in and blogger cleared my comments and now I have to retype them all:(
ReplyDeleteAnyway wow thanks for the extremely prompt reply!
Ahh that makes a lot of sense for the scholarship since I initially thought it was awarded by the Sg gov and I was wondering since when they got so generous. But if it's awarded by the university itself it makes a lot more sense since I've heard quite a lot about those.
Well for me I am not thaaat poor either but I am rather reluctant in getting my parents to fork out a rather big sum to sponsor my overseas studies. A scholarship would help a lot. I am curious about the different aspects of finance and how it works (I have a vague inkling it can either be very mathematical or skewed towards Client meetingish) and despite A level economics being quite interesting I know it's a far fetch from the real financial world. Thus it would be great if you can tell me more about that area since finance is rather broad also. Your area of expertise sounds rather interesting too:)
Also, since I am not serving NS (muhahaha) and I don't have that much of a grudge against sg I wouldn't mind working here for a few years to get experience but ultimately living in UK or Australia sounds rather favorable due to the envionment there.(gosh I just read your sg-aus work hour and salary post and good grief haha)
More on myself: I'm currently on a bit of thin ice with my school due to being on second chances. Despite that, I have been almost a straight A student apart from last year.(albeit a very lazy one that didn't score high enough As to get the dean's list or high end scholarship) I am also a person whom I know will never last long at a 9-5 job since it's too boring, but I am willing to work my ass off for the first few years for experience and more opportunities-> ultimately saving me some years later on. So I guess jobs with quite a lot of travelling is fine with me.
I read this somewhere and I find it ringing true and I think I will make it my motto somewhat, 'before you think about making money, think about making yourself valuable (to the company) first'
Oh and if I would like to do something related to finance what degrees do you find favorable since you once listed economics and finance degrees to be rather useless? And that something more specific would be great.(I actually wouldn't mind a major in psych. Then hop to finance but it seems like that's not likely in sg)
Once again thanks for the fast reply and hope to hear from you soon:)
No lah, there are loads of organizations that give away scholarships, you will be surprised. If you are seriously interested in scholarships, then you need to do your research - decide what area of study you want to undertake and find out what institutions (universities, private companies, government bodies, etc) give out scholarships and you will be amazed what you can find. However, sorry to state the obvious, but you do realize that competition is extremely intense for these scholarships and you will be up against the very best students. Nonetheless, as in my case, you only need one to say yes to you and even if two say yes, you still have to pick one of the two. And the idea of serving a bond isn't all that bad - it does give you some certainty upon completing your degree rather than worry about having to apply for jobs.
DeleteAs for finance, there are so many different aspects of finance to go into - some are extremely mathematical and some (as in my role) require ZERO mathematics. Like seriously, I don't use any mathematics at all apart from putting together my invoice and making sure I get paid the right amount and claim all my expenses: that is like primary 3 level maths where I get to add big numbers together. Think about a big bank is HSBC, they employ about 250,000 professionals worldwide. You are not seriously imagining that all 250,000 of them do EXACTLY the same job? No, of course not, if I were to start listing the VERY VERY long list of different kinds of positions available at HSBC, I would be typing till tomorrow.
There are a few paths to take to get into finance: the most usual is to get a good degree and then enter a graduate recruitment scheme. That's when the good banks directly mop up the best graduates from a good university and then train them up - they don't give a shit what you studied at university, what they care about is that you are a) intelligent and b) show potential. Any kind of academic training of economics or finance at degree level is so far removed from the real world that it is virtually useless.
In any case, there is a serious problem of grade inflation at the moment at British universities - that means that too many students are graduating with 2:1/second upper or first class degrees. What do recruiters do in this case if everyone is coming up with great results? They play it safe by hiring people from top universities (that's what league tables are for) and shun those from universities lower down the league table. So take heed: your A levels are going to be more important than your actual degree, cos your A levels are gonna determine which university you get into and if you get into a crap university at the wrong end of the league table, then you may as well not bother.
Otherwise there are loads of smaller companies in the financial services sector who will offer fresh grads a chance - not everyone starts off working for a huge giant like HSBC. It is a completely different culture working for a company of like 10 to 30 people and some people prefer that environment as it is more informal and a lot more dynamic. There are also greater opportunities to innovate and take your own initiative in an environment like that, rather than being a small cog in a big corporate machine.
I am not going to "tell you more about finance" since there is sooooo much information on the web - I expect you to do your own homework and reading rather than expect me to spoon feed you information like that. Tsk tsk.
Anyway, I gotta dash to my next meeting. Feel free to write more and ask me questions after you've done your research on what area of finance you wish to get into.
Haha I knew I would get something along the lines of 'go do your homework'. Well I would when I get more time on my hands. I've actually done some research before but it was so broad and confusing and not very insightful so i was hoping to glean some useful advice from Limpeh first.
DeleteMy dad works in a section of risk management in a local bank. However his work seems rather technical and not that interesting, though there might be aspects of risk management I'm not too sure. You would be surprised at how un-insightful some of the career talks from alumni are. A totally...how is that supposed to help me with anything? kind of talk sigh.
I forgot to mention that there are teachers in my school who would bend backwards to help students secure scholarships and possibly list out scholarships they should apply for, not to mention give them additional opportunities to fatten up their portfolios. Alas that only applies to those whose names are big among the teachers or those on multiple dean's lists, which I'm not on yet. Though the graduate scheme sounds interesting and is probably a good method if I do reach there one day.
Haha though maybe you can tell me a bit more about the various departments in banks such as HSBC after I've done my research though I'm not against smaller companies.
No worries though I wouldn't even consider a overseas degrees if its not first tier, why waste that money might as well stay in sg! I have also heard how competitive scholarship applications have become (last time even AAAB can be considered for PSC but now anything short of straight As? not even the first round!). I wasn't aware of the grade inflation but I suppose that's inevidently happening anywhere, though the universities I'm looking at in UK shouldn't be affected.
The idea that A levels matters more than the degree sounds new haha after all, all the IP kids are worried about what degree to pick and how many As to get. Well, I will be raking up things for my portfolio so I will get a decent shot and acads wise, as long as I study and put in some effort things should be fine.
Well thanks again, till I find out more about the niche areas of finance then I shall bombard you with questions. Though the particular field you are in sounds interesting, the idea of asset management in finance isn't too bad :)
Well I am not going to spend time telling you about information that you can find on the internet - I don't believe in spoon feeding, I believe that when you take the time, energy and effort to do your own research, the process would lead you to valuable conclusions as to what areas of finance suit your talents and what areas are just not interesting to you.
DeleteFurthermore, I think the exercise of me telling you about the different departments of HSBC is a complete waste of time because a young graduate NEVER gets the option of dictating to the bank, "oh i want to work in this particular department, please arrange a desk for me in that office and give me a good personal assistant." Not unless your father is the CEO of that bank. No that's not gonna happen, get real and smell the coffee.
Rather, the reality is going to be more like this: upon your graduation, you apply for literally hundreds of jobs and then you may get a few offers if you're lucky and then you pick the best option out of all the offers you have. Some of the positions you apply to would be your dream job, others would be more like, "not really what I am looking for but it's a good company" or "not really ideal for me but I think I am suitable for the role" etc. Let's get real here - if you are only going to apply for positions that are your "dream jobs" - then be prepared to be unemployed for a ridiculously long time. You simply take the best option that comes along first because it looks v bad if you are unemployed for a very long time and then you are building up work experience in the meantime before trying to make a lateral transition into an area where you would like to pitch your career towards.
So my point is that it is not about what the various departments exist in HSBC (like dude, FFS, seriously, it's all on their website so why the hell do you need me to tell you about the various departments when it's all on their freaking website? Come on lah, are you that freaking lazy that you cannot be asked to go to hsbc.com and see for yourself?) Kindly demonstrate to me that you're willing to help yourself before asking me to help you, because I like helping people who are ready to help themselves, but I dislike people who are too lazy to even read a website.
So - please go and do your homework and then come back with some concrete questions. I must stress though, that it is one thing to identify an area you'll like to get into, it's another to try to actually get your dream job. Heck, think of how many young ladies would like to be supermodels but how many of them actually end up making a living by strutting down catwalks in fashion shows? Very few actually make it. The same odds exist in finance. It's tough, bloody tough. It's too easy for you as a JC student to sit there and think "ooh I wanna be an asset manager" but how you get from being a fresh grad to managing a pool of assets is the difficult part and the best thing you can do for yourself right now is to get straight As for your A levels and get into Oxbridge. That would give you a head start in the process.
Tsk tsk Uncle Limpeh, play nice. Even if your bosses may be rather mean at times. To be fair, when you were 18 I don't think you were that informed/had such great amounts of information at your disposal, good for me I have wise people like you to advise me :D
DeleteAnyway, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't intending for you to list out the different jobs available at HSBC, that would be a waste of time. I was actually referring more to the general area of job scopes for people in different roles such as financial consultants in asset management.
Either way, I've done some of my homework and sorry for the late reply since I'm in fact stuck in school at the moment. I was looking more at corporate finance, asset management and investment banking. However from what I've seen, it seems that applied math is rather needed in the industry. Common jobs seem to include obviously accountancy, number crunching, sales/marketing/ meeting clients. Also, financial modelling (which is some of what my dad does) and research analysts. Most of these seems rather mathematical in nature and some/most banks require a degree in accountancy/stats. Thus I'm very curious as to how you managed to secure your first few jobs and get a foothold in the finance industry in UK.
In terms of asset management, the hierarchy seems rather straightfoward where it takes years of experience to work up to being a portfolio manager which is higher up in the food chain. I know I am not a very sales person but I don't mind aliasing with clients ultimately. However, are there any other pathways for those in private banking in asset management since the norm seems rather youth burning and not that exciting after a while.
Furthermore, I am still in the process of looking for a dream job actually, thus the uncertainty. Finance is certainly not a breeze but accountants usually do fine if they last long enough and get enough experience (though I heard the job is terribly boring with high burnout rates for those in the Big4). Its impossible to imagine myself getting a big nice office with coffee makers when I enter at a graduate entree level. However, I feel that its nice to keep my end goal in mind as to where I hope to see myself at in the next say, 15-20 years.
Also, I know that straight As and a good university is half the battle won to securing a good job along with soft skills and connections. But what to do? that would have to wait another 2 years and meanwhile I'm trying to rake up as much advise and experience as possible while I'm still free. Thanks once again.
Hello. I am glad you've done your homework. Keep going. I shall skip to the part where you asked a question directly for me.
DeleteI got my first job in sales - that's right: http://limpehft.blogspot.com/2013/05/q-lets-talk-about-sales.html Now that was not my first choice but given my language skills it got my foot in the door and I worked my first job in sales, second job in sales, third job in sales before I moved to a smaller company where I was able to negotiate a move into marketing given that marketing in a B2B sphere directly deals with people in sales and having proven myself in sales, I knew my target audience very well. In an ideal world, sure I would have liked to have started out in marketing without having to take this roundabout route via sales to get into marketing, but at the end of the day, life is complicated: life never presents you with a straightforward road to walk down, it is always full of twists and turns and unexpected bends. I don't think any career advisor would ever warn you about that as that would render their job obsolete if they just sat back and said, "what's the point of trying so hard to plan when you often cannot get what you want, you take what you can get and then change your plans, making the best of the situation."
So despite the fact that I had marketing in mind, the companies that I had applied to all said the same thing. "We have NO openings in marketing at the moment, we have a small marketing department we are very happy with but hey, we're always looking to expand our sales team and you're more than welcome to join our sales team if you will do sales." Well something along the lines of that. Marketing is this coveted role that few people can lay their hands on, whereas such companies gladly churn and burn loads of sales staff. So given that I could NOT get my first choice, I went into sales and thrived in that environment despite not liking it initially but hey, I made the best of what I had before me and became stunningly good at it.
I then got to the point where I outgrew the company I was with (I fell out with the boss whom I felt was holding me back and the office politics of that place was getting nastier and nastier, some of my best allies left and the writing was on the wall) - then I had a choice: either I could go to another Russian company (very nice job offer and I got along so well with the guy who would have been my boss in the London office) and do more sales but for more money; or I stepped away from sales and try my luck in other parts of the industry (and indeed, dabble in another industry altogether.) Guess what? I held out for the sales role at the Russian company then they came back and said, "I'm so sorry, but looking at the kind of salary you command, we can hire two people in our Moscow office at that rate and they've decided to change their plans and expand the Moscow office instead but maybe if we are ever in a position to considering expanding our London office, you're first on our list." Damn.
DeleteSo remember what I said about life throwing you a curved ball? I left finance and said bye bye to it (in my mind, for good) - dabbled in finance, luxury food & beverage and then boom: old client of mine tracked me down, asked me out for lunch. This eccentric American ran a hedge fund and then said to me, "the hedge fund has taken off in a big way and I need more talent on my team and I want you." That put me in a bargaining position and I said, "I'm not doing sales." And he replied, "we don't need to sell a fund that is doing so well, it sells itself, but we do need someone to do investor relations." And I thought, okay, call that marketing and give me some marketing responsibilities and you've got a deal.
That went very well for a while, then that hedge fund ran into difficulties in 2012, the owners disposed of it and I thought, great, time to leave finance for good. Then the same American guy rose like a phoenix from the ashes and started another fund and guess what? He got me to play the same role again. And I said, "you know my rates if you want me."
The biggest irony of them all is that when I was so desperate to establish a career in finance, all I could get was sales and fair enough, it was a foot in the door but I didn't realize I would spend so many years stuck in sales with my foot jammed in that door and getting nowhere. But when I finally said, okay forget it, I'm gonna try to do something else altogether as I have so many other ideas about what I would like to do with my life (esp in media - which I have great interest in) and leave finance, that's when the good job offers came in.
But another principle I would like to share with you from my experience is this: you only need one person to believe in you. There was that guy from the Russian company who totally believed in me (but alas he couldn't make it happen), then there was the American guy and I only need one person at a time to believe in me enough to give me a job.
As for your other questions: are there any other pathways into private banking and asset management? No, not really. I actually know that industry really well since the hedge funds I had worked for primarily targeted private banks.
The fact is these people recruit when they have an opening - ie. somebody has quit and that leaves a gap they need to fill but often it is a one in one out flow. I know someone from a family office in London who tells me that he only got his job there because he had the right expertise and experience, they're not in the business of hiring and training up fresh grads, they need people who are ready to hit the ground running.
What he said does echo with my experience - ie. young man, go prove yourself and come back to me in 5 years' time and show me what you've done with your working life. Yeah it's that bloody brutal I'm afraid. A coveted place on a graduate recruitment scheme would sort it all out, but you have got to plan for "what if I don't get snapped up on one of those recruitment schemes then what?"
I would also add that a lot of what you define as a dream job will be shaped by your working experience - a lot of it will boil down to a process of elimination: ie. what you don't want to do, what you don't mind doing, what you absolutely hate, what you perform well at etc. All that you wouldn't know until you step into the working world, so you really ought to keep an open mind on that issue.
OK I have written aplenty. Let me know if you have any other issues.
Sorry, typo and I cannot edit the comments: "dabbled in MEDIA and the luxury food and beverage sector". I left finance to work in media initially as I have great interest in modern media & entertainment and I still do.
DeleteYay thank you for the insightful and lengthy replies. You must be in a better mood from the lack of meetings hahaha. I think I got more than I bargained for when I was asking for advice.
DeleteOh dear I must have missed out the sales post somehow since the link didn't appear in your numerous education/job/interview posts. I'm rather surprised that you got through via sales since that's not something I have been considering. Well one question that comes to mind is the difference between marketing and sales since I usually hear them being lumped together. However, after reading up a bit on from the internet I suppose it makes sense why marketing is highly sought after, personally marketing looks a lot more appealing than sales -> I really don't like salesmen they left a sour taste the other times. From what I seem to understand, marketing is more of well studying and analysing the market to ultimately boost sales instead of directly interpersonal selling. Also, it focuses more on client relationship instead of a one-off thing so as to get long term benefits where generally both parties are happy...is that right? I'm also curious as to whether marketing works like sales where your salary is dependent on commission? That doesn't really make sense for consultancy roles though...unless they are providing more of analysis and advice?
Though I suppose your career progression actually makes a lot of sense since the experience in sales must have helped a lot in paving the way for marketing ultimately. Though haha true that life has a funny way of leading us to destinations, sometimes in extremely roundabout ways, just got my first roundabout last year. Hmm but isn't investor relations also part of a marketer's job to kind of satisfy clients? I suppose though marketing is highly sought after also because they are way more valuable than salesmen since the connections would prove to be a lot more useful, so much so that clients refuse to work with the particular company unless its this person they are dealing with, that puts him in a very lucrative position I've heard.
Now that you've mentioned it, I think recruitment schemes seem to be the easiest ticket if one has the skills and luck. And regarding needing an employer to 'talent spot' and trust your skills, I suppose you are in fact a very lucky and skillful man in the big bad finance world haha.
Okay, for once I've hit the 4096 limit so I will break it up into 2 replies...
Here's the second part:
DeleteOkay I have somewhat of a bigger question and another smaller question left. Let me start with the smaller one. It seems that you didn't mention much about my concerns regarding math, but given how you progressed in your career it makes sense that you don't have to deal with math, you just deal with people and more people and possibly paperwork haha. But still it seems that the other routes that are not directly related to sales seem to tie in a lot with math, so math is still rather important, i.e at least a good foundation in math/stats or skills with excel would be advantageous yes?
Onward to my bigger question, I'm not sure if you can help me with this since I don't think you are that familiar with the situation in Singapore when it comes to civil service but I might as well give it a shot. It goes back to my first post regarding some sort of a semi-dream rough plan I have which is to somehow get my foot in the private finance sector rather higher up in the food chain through civil service. Is that really possible....? To enter civil service via scholar route and work my way up to something reasonably decent like a director and hop to private and ultimately land myself in areas related to marketing or private banking? Given that somehow I must do something rather PR-ish in the government of course. Or is that possibility close to nil even if I do embark on the scholar's route and make it to a director level in my late 20s/early 30s.(that's apparently the min needed for fast tracked scholars to have a shot at a future) A lot of ifs I'm banking on here haha.
Well I think that's all the questions I have for now, meanwhile I shall pick up Wolf of wall street and The Dip for leisure reading, sounds interesting and those are good books right? And believe me, I am trying to do elimination for my future jobs since I can't seem to make up my mind on concrete dream careers either haha, that being said, damn A levels is starting to sound stressful when I'm beginning to see the value of the As at least for the next 5-7 years yikes :S
A few points for you:
Delete1. There is a close relationship between marketing and sales. You're right in the sense that marketing looks at the big picture, how to brand the company, how to improve our communication with our target clientele, how to improve the image of the product etc - whilst sales is all about "get the client to sign on the dotted line so I can get my commission for that deal". It's the sales people who tend to get more respect in the company though as you can have the most fancy marketing campaigns in the world but if you do not have sales guys getting the deals to bring home the business then nobody is going to make any money. My credibility as a marketing consultant is that having been on the sales end of business, I understand the needs of the sales team hence I am able to deliver marketing campaigns that are not based on my arty-farty need to be creative, but on the very practical considerations of the sales guys.
2. IR (investor relations) is slightly different - it's glorified customer services but at the end of the day, it is this no man's land between sales and marketing where you have to try to retain existing business. It is far easier than sales because you already have the client's money and you just have to do whatever you can to keep them happy.
3. Ref: maths. It depends entirely on what area of finance you wanna go into. I don't use maths at all because in both sales and marketing, it's 99.999% about communicating with the client - it's me and my big mouth, I talk and I talk and I listen and I talk some more. It's all about that and I do NOT use any maths whatsoever. I am playing to my strengths as well: I am a good communicator, I'm not great at maths. Listen if you are good with maths, then by all means consider the career paths where maths is important. But what you need to understand is that I never felt happy with maths, maths and I have always had a bad relationship since primary school. So I have made it a point to steer away from roles where maths is important - and fortunately, I have other strengths which have allowed me to do so successfully.
4. Now I cannot give you a definitive answer on the civil service route you mentioned but I can offer an opinion and it's up to you to take away what you want. I think the kind of people looking to for a career in the civil service are very different from those who excel in the private sector especially when it comes to finance. It does seem like an unusual route at least - because those who are aspiring for a career in the civil service would stick to where they have established a good track record, rather than uproot themselves and try to re-establish themselves in a different industry where they have few allies. I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be my first choice as it is not just unorthodox... it doesn't make sense.
I do know of a guy who was a scholar who got posted to the London office of the Monetary Authority Singapore - he then completed his bond and then moved on to work for a French asset manager. But I asked him, "when you got your scholarship, did you know you were going to end up in your role at MAS?" He said no, when you accept the bond and the scholarship, you could end up anywhere and it's pretty much up to them. You can't say I'll take the scholarship and then dictate the terms of it to the organization offering it to you."
I'm working on another piece based on these discussions for you. In the meantime, I must dash to the next meeting!
Have a read here: (written with you in mind)
Deletehttp://limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/8-questions-for-students-deciding-on.html
Cool
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