Let me tell you a little story about cleaning brushes. Have a look at the following picture - it is a cleaning brush made from coconut fibres, fairly common in Singapore.
Now when I was about 3 years old, there was a window which I used to climb up to and peer out of. I was an active, naughty kid and my mother knew that no matter how much she punished me each time she caught me doing so, I would will try to do it when she was not looking. So this was what she did, she got three of those coconut fibre brushes and placed them on the window ledge and she told me there a family of monsters there - a father, mother and the smallest one was the child. These little monsters would bite my fingers if I tried to touch them and they were very fierce and dangerous indeed.
I believed her. Come on, I was 3 years old okay and I didn't get close enough to those brushes to examine them. I merely believed every word she said like the gullible kid I was. Well, what did you expect? I didn't know any better as a child, I wasn't in any position to question what I was being told... until I was about 5 years old. I took a ruler and flicked the brushes off with the ruler. I picked them up with my hands and brought them to my mother - disappointed that I had been lied to. Instead, she just laughed at me as if the whole thing had been a big joke.
Children are naive and easy to deceive - such is the nature of a child's mind. It is easy to take advantage of a child's naivety (as my mother did). Now there are a few reasons why I think it's very wrong for CHC to target young children in their outreach programme.
1. Children are not yet capable of voicing their opinions and asking difficult questions.
That's not to say that children are stupid per se - but children have been conditioned to trust adults and submit to their authority. That is why we have come to recognize 'teenage rebellion' as the stage in their lives when they start rebelling against the authority of adults. Parents, does this sound familiar?
Daughter: I want to go to Sam's party this Saturday.
Parent: No you can't - you have to study for your exams.
Daughter But I have revised thoroughly, I don't need to study any more.
Parent: You can go to parties after the exams. Not before.
Daughter: I don't see how a few hours at a party at Sam's is going to make any difference.
Parent: Stop arguing. I've said so.
Daughter: You never let me have any fun!
Parent: You think I enjoy making you study? I'm doing this for your own good.
Now that may be the kind of conversation you can have with a 12 year old, but probably not a 17 year old - the 12 year old will submit to your authority but most 17 year olds will end up getting their way and going to Sam's party. What is the difference? The 12 year old will not trust her judgement enough to push her point because all her life, she has had to submit to her parents' wishes. Whereas by the time we get into our late teens and subsequently into adulthood, most of us learn to gain enough confidence to make our own judgement calls and decisions.
That is why I worry about anyone under the age of 15 being aggressively indoctrinated into religion - given that we all mature at different rates emotionally, I am picking 15 as an arbitrary point where I deem that a young person gains enough confidence to challenge an adult's point of view and offer his/her own opinion instead. At that age, the relationship also changes from that between an adult and a child to that between two adults - the adult no longer has the luxury of simply brushing aside the opinions of the child however valid.
Hence it is very easy for an adult to take advantage of this child-like naivety, when children genuinely believe that they don't know enough by virtue of their age and subject themselves to the better judgement of an older, wiser adult. These make children very easy targets to be indoctrinated into religion until they get to that age.
Now at the age of 15, I got involved in some of the activities as part of my school's Interact Club activities - these mainly involved visiting old folks home and also helping the disabled. One of my friends there said to me, "If you like doing things like that, my church also does all kind of charity activities, you don't have to be a Christian, you can come along. We're going to an old folk's home next week, wanna come along?"
Indeed, I went along and we met at his church where this middle aged lady took charge of us - we were a group of about 13-15 year old teenagers and there was a 'briefing'. During this briefing, well, I had to use the inverted commas as she was preaching to us as she knew there were non-Christians amongst us in the group. She quoted liberally but incorrectly from the bible and she tried to match current world events (such as the Iraq War) as evidence of prophesies from the bible coming true. Now even as a 15 year old, I knew she had made some basic factual errors in misquoting the bible - but I didn't have the confidence as a child to challenge her. I thought, "well she's an adult, if I tell her she is wrong, I would come across as disrespectful or rude. Or she might not believe me as I am still only a child."
With that in mind, I chose to keep quiet despite my concerns with the bullshit this auntie was spouting. Now if that had happened just a few years later, when I was 18 - there was no way I would've kept quiet. I would've stopped her and challenged her on the spot. This is why it is a lot easier to preach to children rather than adults.
2. Children do not understand religion - only adults can.
Religion is complex - Christianity is hard to understand and that's me speaking as someone who has read the bible cover to cover more than once. How is it possible to break that down to children to get them involved in religion? This is what happens: adults pick and choose the parts they like to present a simpler, watered-down version of the religion to their children. That is a dangerous process when they choose to ignore what they dislike and focus on the parts which suit their purpose.
So in fact, children are not learning about Christianity per se, but they are learning a version of Christianity that has been stripped down and reassembled for them by another human being. Until they actually become old enough to start understanding the more complex issues regarding Christian faith, they may claim to have faith, they may claim to believe in Jesus but do they understand what they are buying into?
No, they don't. They are merely being obedient and doing as they're told and this is when it can be extremely scary. You can train children to be obedient and do as they're told - but do they behave a certain way because they are 'programmed' to do so, or do they consciously choose to behave well? Let me give you an example which demonstrates just how little critical thinking goes on in a child's mind.
Now my regular readers will know that I have been involved in gymnastics all my life and part of that is being a judge at gymnastics competitions. This was an incident from the year 2001 - when I was invited to judge at a gymnastics festival for juniors in London. I found myself judging the floor exercise event for 10 year old girls - now let me explain how it works. Every gymnast taking part is taught exactly the same, simple routine and they all perform it for the judge and the winner is the one who performs it the best. Not the most exciting competition to judge but this day was different. First, here's an example of such a routine for this age group.
Her coach and I ran over and even her coach said, "Didn't you see that wall?"
She replied, "Yes but I have to follow the routine."
Okay, for those of you who have children, I sincerely hope they have the common sense to avoid concrete walls and not run, jump or tumble into them. Look, if this girl (who was about ten then) couldn't exercise enough common sense to protect herself in this case, how is someone like that expected to negotiate the more complex issues when it comes to understanding religion? She had been simply programmed to follow instructions without question. Now you could probably get this girl to faithfully go to church every Sunday, memorize chunks of the bible - she is obviously obedient and good at taking instructions - but clearly, she is not capable of any kind of critical thinking or even basic common sense.
Surely, the honourable thing would be to back off and not indoctrinate people like that into religion until they're intellectually able to understand what religion is, rather than take advantage of their simple minds? Do the churches not care if these children actually understand anything at all whilst in church?
3. It is about making an informed decision as an adult.
Let's look at the minimum age for some things we can only do as an adult in Singapore.
Age of consent (ie. for sex): 16
Voting age: 21
Minimum age to get married: 21 (but 18 to 21 year olds can get married with the consent of their parents)
To serve national service: 18
Minimum age to buy alcohol: 18
Minimum age to buy tobacco: 18 (Smoking under the age of 18 is an offence.)
Enter a disco like Zouk: 18
Why are Singaporeans not allowed to smoke or drink alcohol under the age of 18? Or have sex under the age of 16? These are clearly laws to protect children - they are there for good reason. Children should not be indulging in activities for which they are not mature enough to make an informed decision about. If an adult chooses to ignore the health warnings on a cigarette packet and chooses to smoke anyway, fine - that's his choice to make as an informed adult. Likewise for voting and getting married - these are activities again reserved for adults because we expect people to think and function like adults before we trust them to understand the consequences of an election and marriage. Can you trust children to understand the responsibilities of marriage or voting? No, you cannot.
By that token, shouldn't we protect children from aggressive evangelists, at least before they turn 18? I know the Christians may get really angry at this stage and scream at me, "how dare you put Christianity in the same category as tobacco and alcohol, as if it is a bad thing?" Yes, but there is a minimum age for marriage as well - and you Christians go on and on about how important marriage is. If marriage is so good, why don't you let children as young as 10 or 12 get married? No? Because they're not old enough to understand what marriage actually is nor are they ready for it at that age.
This concept isn't really that alien to the Christian church in any case, as there is the age old tradition of confirmation. The rite tends to be seen rather as a mature statement of faith by an already baptised person and it is often only offered to those who have completed a course of bible study - there isn't strictly speaking an exam they need to pass before they are offered this confirmation, but it does mark a deeper, more profound understanding of one's spiritual relationship that can only come with many years of studying theology.
Now let's go back in history to the middle ages when literacy in Europe was low - people then still went to churches regularly and were probably far more Christian than their modern counterparts. However, given most barely read or write, their understanding of the bible was not based so much on what they have studied - but more a mix of tradition, hearsay, folklore and superstition. Yes these people may look extremely ignorant to our modern eyes, but isn't this exactly the kind of understand of religion that children have?
My point is this: we tend not to remain in that child like state. Through a combination of nurturing and education, we are led into adulthood where we have a very different kind of relationship with religion - whereby one either studies it, understands it and embraces it (through confirmation) or studies it, understands it and then rejects it (and becomes an atheist). Either way, I see any kind of childhood religious experience to be rather limited and vapid, compared to what how one approaches religion as an adult.
4. Parents should have a say and be involved in the process.
Now I know that many younger people will probably disagree with me on this - but I still say that as a child, if you are living under your parents' roof, if they are paying for everything and you have no money without them, then tough - they should have a say as to what kind of religious upbringing you have. They may be liberal and allow you to explore religion in any way you desire - that's fine, but that should still be a choice for parents to make.
From the parents' point of view, they bring a child into this world, they spend so much time, energy and effort bringing up the child - of course, they are entitled to have a say in the child's religion and most would want the child to have the same kind of religion as they do. As a child, if you want to adopt a different religion - that's fine, but you should not do so whilst you're living under your parents' roof without their consent.
How would parents feel about their young children being preached to? Even if they are Christian parents, they should have the right to know what kind of religious doctrines are being preached to their young, innocent children. The fact that CHC (and other similar organisations) are engaging with such young students behind their parents' backs is a major cause for concern, even for Christian parents in Singapore for it effectively locks them out of the equation.
Now this was the sermon that has provoked this very angry reaction in Singapore it was delivered by Pastor Tan Seow How from Heart of God Church The main sermon that pastor Tan delivers following his video clip revolves around giving; how important it is for youths to give (money) to the church: "If they do not give as a youth, they will never give as adults."
Yes, quelle surprise, it boils down to money. We are never far away from money - remember why we have been talking about this in the first place: Sun Ho squandered S$24 million on a pathetic pop career in America. Where do you think that kind of money comes from? Now if working adults want to give their money to CHC to support project Crossover, then fair enough, it's their right as informed adults to do whatever they want with their money. They can bet it on the roulette wheel at the casino, they can pamper themselves with luxuries or they can give it to the church: it's their money, their choice.
But hold on a second here, if you're targeting teenage students - they don't work. They have no income of their own, they are completely dependent on their parents for pocket money. So if the church wants a share of their pocket money - well, surely the parents should have a say in the matter for it the parents' hard earned money after all.
5. And what happens when the child grows up?
Even if you do get a child to believe what you tell him there will come the day when the child will pick up a ruler, flick the brushes off the window ledge - then what are you going to do then? I have a feeling these churches don't really think about it - that's why people leave the church, disillusioned and disappointed because those who have the audacity to ask difficult questions are often scolded for not having enough faith or not trusting god's plan. But one can only remain silent for that long when one has burning questions to ask - and that's why people leave.
Churches like CHC can respond in two ways. They can do the difficult option, which is go after people like me and try to get me to come back to church. Not easy, given that I have know the bible very well and can quote verse and scripture at you if you don't know your bible well enough, I will take great pleasure in exposing you as a charlatan. No, that's why they are quite happy to leave atheists like me alone and they go for the other option: those who don't ask difficult questions. Children. And heck, even children who do ask difficult questions will not know if you're giving them a bullshit reply because they are too young to know the difference. They are going for the easy target and avoiding the more difficult ones.
But really, are they the only ones doing this?
How very low and devious of these churches to target children like that, when it is clear that it is their money they are after. Or is it? After all, is this anything new? Let me tell you about an experience I had many years ago when I worked a few weeks at this horrible Christmas attraction called Santaland at Earls Court, West London. It was a Santa-theme park and there are many Santa grottos, but on weekends and as we got closer to Christmas, the queues got ridiculously long and we had to entertain the children as they queued up to see Santa in his grotto. Yes I was one of those entertainers who tried to bring cheer to those children (and their parents, who by that time had probably lost the will to live).
One of the things we did was to ask the simple question, "So what are you going to ask Santa for Christmas this year?" And oh boy, those kids would rattle off a long list of expensive toys and gadgets they wanted, as if this big fat jolly old man would magically deliver those gifts on Christmas morning. I would always watch the parents' faces as they listed what toys they wanted and I wondered, "are you going to seriously buy all that for your child? What a nasty, greedy child you have, what a shit parent you must be, you two deserve each other, may you have a rotten Christmas, next!"
I remember walking around the Christmas market and thinking, all this crap is aimed at children. All these toy companies: Mattel, Hasbro, Tomy, Ideal Toy Company, Toy2R, Playmobil etc - they're not targeting the parents (who are the ones buying the toys), no they're targeting the children and a lot of money is spent on advertising specifically targeting children. So the child can just point at the TV screen during the ad break and scream, "Mummy, Daddy, look! I want that one! I want it, I want it!"
Good grief. Really, parents, what do you do when your child does that?
It is big business for these toy companies and they make a lot of money from this market - is it any wonder that the churches look at this business trend and think, "now there's a lucrative market we should get into if we need money for our church funds". So it's okay for Mattel and Hasbro to exploit children but not churches? We are keen to protect the children in our society from so many things - but yet we subject them to all this consumerism which is somehow acceptable, even celebrated as a way to show how much we love our children? Go figure.
There is something very wrong here, indeed, the very same parents who don't want CHC to preach to their children are the same parents who will run out to the store and buy some overpriced plastic crap after their kid watches some ad on TV and screams, "Mummy Daddy, I want that one!" Let's be fair to the churches here - yes they are being mercenary, no doubt about it - but they are a part a product of the society we lie in. Churches are run by humans and it's unrealistic to imagine that god or whatever divine being will intervene to prevent churches from being materialistic, predatory or even committing financial fraud.
Perhaps this will be the much needed wake up call to Christians in Singapore - they are often told that going to church is entering god's house and somehow god is in charge, rather than human beings like you and I. And then they are told to put their faith in god and trust god's will - effectively asking them to close their eyes and not subject the people running the church to any kind of human scrutiny. Well they can only get away with that for so long, even in Singapore. I can't wait for the CHC trial to start.
Good grief. Really, parents, what do you do when your child does that?
There is something very wrong here, indeed, the very same parents who don't want CHC to preach to their children are the same parents who will run out to the store and buy some overpriced plastic crap after their kid watches some ad on TV and screams, "Mummy Daddy, I want that one!" Let's be fair to the churches here - yes they are being mercenary, no doubt about it - but they are a part a product of the society we lie in. Churches are run by humans and it's unrealistic to imagine that god or whatever divine being will intervene to prevent churches from being materialistic, predatory or even committing financial fraud.
Perhaps this will be the much needed wake up call to Christians in Singapore - they are often told that going to church is entering god's house and somehow god is in charge, rather than human beings like you and I. And then they are told to put their faith in god and trust god's will - effectively asking them to close their eyes and not subject the people running the church to any kind of human scrutiny. Well they can only get away with that for so long, even in Singapore. I can't wait for the CHC trial to start.









Hi LIFT, just to answer your question:
ReplyDelete"… I want that toy/game!" — as parents, how do we react?
What follows applies in our family.
We cannot speak for parents who do not want to exercise often painful but always necessary good sense, in working with their often rather lovely kids.
We discuss; we train them to compare, evaluate, negotiate and think through sensibly.
And at the end, if they exercise reasoned, good judgement, they eventually get what they yearn for.
But if it's way past budget, and too frequent a want (signs of being spoilt and greedy), then as parents we exercise our rightful power to put a stop at the worst, and guide them towards alternatives at the best.
Does not matter whether it's child or toddler we're dealing with.
Unlike some parents, their throwing a tantrum when unable to get what is desired, especially in public, does not move me.
Because we love our kids, we simply don't endorse such immature attempts to bully their fellow adults.
But I try to spot when our kids' hearts have gone out on a limb for something they think they really cherish, especially when merciless, ruthless commercial marketing has fooled with their innocent passions over something truly lovely.
My natural reaction then is to train together with them, to ease the frustration and help them re-channel their loves.
For example, I understand why Lego appeals to our child who likes to build, and sees wondrous possibilities in construction projects.
But he and we will not be financial slaves to the exorbitant building-blocks industry.
Also, I can feel our toddler's passion for big trucks that move about, make sounds and show lights, and can even be taken apart.
But he and we will not fall for cheap quality sold at high prices, and even for reputed brands, we avoid too many moving parts that compound the risk of quickly breaking down with heavy use.
So your heart's in the right place too, LIFT, when you wish parents would step up and help their kids along to do the right thing.
We cannot easily move large organisations where we want them to go, but we sure can move our own small teams (like family and friends) in the right direction, to the limits of our capabilities.
Nah, I just see so many parents making the mistake by thinking that just because they work hard and have not enough time for their kids, they can make up for it by buying them expensive toys and that just leads to their children becoming so very greedy at times like Christmas and birthdays, this culture of pointing at the TV ad and saying, "mummy, daddy, I want one of those!!" That's terrible. That's an awful way to bring up children. And we wonder why some kids turn out nice and others turn out nasty - it's all down to the parenting.
DeleteIt's just business as usual for these people and they probably got the idea from the banks.
ReplyDeleteJust think about it, most Singaporean young adults will have a POSB account then they first start working. Why? Because POSB went to primary schools and actively promoted their young save account to children and parents as a great way to learn the virtues of saving. As these children grew up into adulthood, these young savers will automatically convert to normal POSB accounts and become the primary bank account of many young Singaporean. Retaining a broad client base for the next generation of young adults by planning 20yrs ahead. Eventually, these young adults would learn about banking products and realise that there may be better options. They will go on to open other accounts with other banks but usually POSB tends to remain their primary account.
OCBC has started doing this several years ago with their own young savers account. They were able win the tender to be one of the 2 banks in Singapore managing the baby bonus accounts. These are government benefits given to new parents and kept in trust at these approved banks (OCBC and SCB). OCBC has done a better job at promoting this and holds about 80% share of all these trust accounts. They are trust accounts because parents are only able to use this bonus from the government for approved activities and merchants. When the new parents come to open these accounts, OCBC basically starts to promote them all kinds of children account related products, cross selling to young savers, children education endowments etc. Thus, in 20 years time, most of the young adults in Singapore will probably hold an OCBC account as a primary accounts. And by virtue of habit, probably hold on to the account as the primary account.
What some of these megachurches are doing is essentially the same thing isnt it? Start introducing donating to the churches monthly young and by virtue of habit, they will probably continue once they start working. Yes, some may drop off along the way but for the majority of those that have started, it will become a habit. Peers of the same age group will also be less likely to raise an eyebrow at their friends who are simply continuing to do what they have always been doing.
Yes I agree - that's why I say there's an element of double-standards going on here. It's perfectly okay for commercial companies (banks, toy companies etc) to target children (even though the money will ultimately come from the parents as children don't have any money of their own to spend) - but the moment churches do so, people cry foul play. Really? These are the same parents who will gladly run to Toys R Us and get their kids some useless overpriced plastic crap after the kids see some lame-ass commercial on TV about how fun this toy is. Duh. I am merely saying that we need to look at this in the wider context and re-examine the way we deal with the issue.
DeleteDon't get me wrong, I am not condoning what CHC and these other churches are doing - I condemn them in fact, leave the children alone and target adults who understand religion and let them make an informed decision as adults. My point in this article is that despite all our reservations about protecting children, our consumer society still gets to them (often with the parents' approval) and what the churches are doing pretty much the same thing.
It's fashionable (and futile) to rant about the moral deficits prevalent today (and in every major human era).
DeleteJust like the all-new fight (again) for the 'purity' of English (or French, or Chinese etc.), or in Singapore, for speaking 'standard' English, such well-meaning and misguided efforts are doomed to fail, so that the next generation would still have the opportunity to take up the moral crusade.
The problem lies in failing to understand that human nature prevails in the end.
And that inability to recognise the true grittiness of how people actually behave, is the ultimate hypocritical failing of moral purists.
One person's supposed 'holiness' is fodder for another to strike him/her down as most unholy.
The real quiet challenge is to win over your close ones, then your immediate community, and then society at large.
That's the idea of "charity begins at home".
It's hard to try and change the world, when we cannot even convince our immediate neighbours!
So condemn the condemned masses, if we will.
But it's very lonely at the top of our own ethical hill.
And painful too, with others who have sinned casting first stones down on us from up high.
Two old stories come to mind, and I'm just zipping to their morals at the end.
One is the boy on the beach tossing back starfishes into the sea to save them from dehydration deaths.
He's asked how his tiny acts would matter, when there are so many beaches in the world, with so many more starfishes doomed to die, because so many other people could not be that concerned.
To which he replies for the next starfish he's holding before toss-back: "It matters to this one."
The other story has one chap telling the other that he's thought of a new religion to start, and wonders how it can be made to succeed.
The other chap congratulates him, and suggests: "Now you only need to die for your religion."
Martyrs immortalise great causes.
How prepared are we to defend and die for our positions?
If anyone is, congratulations.
Now that one is on the way to starting a new religion of good sense, and ethical, moral lifestyle.
For the rest of us, so much of our talk is just hot air.
ha, off topic but just saw that you commented on the mambo jambo post too. so glad i'm in sg this week.
ReplyDeleteg.
I know!!! Do you know what is going to happen to Mambo? Are they shifting venue, shifting nights or what?
DeleteLatest post on the fb page says they're shifting upstairs to Phuture...
Deleteg.
But Phuture is sooooo small :(
DeleteIf you wish to discuss religion without stepping across the red line, I suggest writing up on Asiaworks, it's a social circle that you pay to get in and works like Scientology I think.
ReplyDeleteInteresting, I will look them up - thanks.
DeleteHello Limpeh, nice to meet you! I stumble on your blog on the weekend and have been enjoying picking at your articles now and again!
ReplyDeleteLSH
Eh Limpeh, LSH here again! The first message was a test to see if this damned thing works at all, since I am such a dinosaur I had to create a google account for the privilege of sending you a remark.
ReplyDeleteAm I right in supposing that whatever I post wil be vetted by you before being posted? would love to share some observations/views on your comments, but unlike you, m afraid if getting outed from the details! Like, aren't you concerned about your boss reading your blog on his response to your email (some time back)? Or your sis reading that your folks do not consider her filial contribution a plus, but they are actually subsidizing your autistic nephew? (I have one of those by the way...yes, mucho complicated.....)
What's your take on the ahem.....moral deficit in the banking industry? Seems that bankers are taking the place of lawyers on the old joke about about a good start of a shipful of lawyersbankers going down? Did you follow when the british banker "teow si" from an atas night spot in COllyer quay a couple of years? More interesting was the stream of vitrol that was poured on his memory by the netizens of Spore! In the vein of your FT kenapa Singapore hate mail!
Ok, hope you receive this....@*@*#(new fangled tech......
Hi LSH. My boss has got far more important things to worry about with our business at the moment - I could cut and paste and show you a series of emails that went back and forth between us this afternoon to show you just how tricky this current piece of crap we're dealing with; but it suffices to say that he is very, very, very busy at the moment. Things have not been going well and he's come up with a grand plan to salvage the situation and if it works, we're all gonna make a lotta money and live happily ever after - and if it fails, well I will be looking for a new job.
DeleteSo that's my boss. As for my sister, believe you me, she has her hands very, very full with her work and family, so she has no time to read my blog. Anyway, as much as I do totally sympathize with my sister trying her very best to cope with an autistic son - she knows the score lah, she is not stupid and as long as I don't misrepresent the situation, as long as everything I say is the truth, well I have nothing to hide.
I see a moral deficit everywhere I look - it's just the bankers who are in the spotlight because they are somehow expected to be whiter than white just because they have been bailed out with the tax payers' money. Look out for my latest post - it is part 5 of my adult season, a conversation with a high class escort who targets married men and then you'll see a lot of people who are probably not doing what they're supposed to do: husbands who pay for high class escorts, rich wives who abuse their maids and servants, high class escorts who target frustrated married men etc - and none of them are in banking.
Hi Limpeh, I hate technology.....I had prepared a nice long rant on the financial industry and tried to send it to you, but needless to say, something (probably myself) screwed up and its lost in cyber space.....
DeleteOK on the basis that a good rant should not be wasted, I will re-hash the salient points of said rant. Probably better that I am forced to re-work this anyway.....force me to self-edit and loose some of the bitter disappointed loser vibe.
OK, Proposition: the financial industry is an ugly carbuncle on the back of society. I formulated this theory when I was a youngster starting out in 90's in the local branch of an investment bank (German btw)....Now its (the financial industry) a horrible life sucking cancer threatening to kill its host......
As I said, at this bank I was incredibly free cos no one took me under his/her wing and there did not seem to be much to do.....after preparing the "models" etc, everyone just seemed to do their own thing.....mainly playing on the stock market!
Anyways, I kept thinking, what sort of productivity is this? Farmers grow food, workers make widgets, service providers provide the service, but what do we do? Even the other notorious desk bound pen pushers, lawyers, are part of the machinery of dispute resolution, which society needs, so how about finance?
I would submit that the machinery of finance is to allocate resources, but even in those innocent days, it did strike me that the ahem...."lubrication" and fuel demanded by the machinery was far in excess of its productivity or contribution to the social weal.I knew a whole department of chaps that sat around most of the time, but at the end of the quarter, met their targets cos "they"(?) "booked" a huge sovereign loan....not that it was anything special. They were just getting paid (way too much) for tending the lending machine......no effort required......guess that's "usury" for you....let your money do the work as they say.....but it wasn't their money (of the chaps sitting around I mean), it was the money of the depositors and customers, don't know if any of it could rightly be said to be the bank's.
ANyways, the lending is actually the most legit part of the whole caper.....I mean, I was in the IPO side, but our nice colleagues across the corridor were happily selling our stuff to THEIR customers, who I presume rely on their advice to sift the crap from the good stuff....but it was all about selling the stuff...
Well, that was in the 90's when as a matter of just principal, I didn't see the co relation between the money earned in the industry whatever service it was supposed to perform. Banker's salaries are only justified when compared with each other, but not in relation to the contribution to the common good of someone in another profession, like for example a doctor or a fireman or street sweeper....
And when you see how the story has unfolded, even without the rigging, ponzi schemes and frauds,even what is legal is far from conscionable.....asset managers fobbing off the dross to their less favoured clients, charging considerable "fees" for the privilege of doing so.....standard operational procedure when every cog in the wheel is operated by self interest. Its like the machines in Terminator that took over from the humans and became a self-perpetuating and self serving thing in itself! Seems that the price society is paying for resource allocation bears no proportion to its true worth to society!
OK, that's it.....my original rant included stuff on likening the financial industry to the self protecting aristocracy during medieval times, with everyone outside being the rubes or serfs.....but I'll spare you that for now.....until the SERF UPRISING !!!
Erm, I have a simple response to that: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Excuse me, gotta get back to work - I actually do work in asset management y'know :)
DeleteYou know, LIFT, LSH's last two words form my follow-up question to you.
DeleteFor now, you join the overlords when you can't beat them.
But where would you be with the eventual serf uprising?
Do you think you would, or then could, just change camp?
Do the serfs admit overlord lackeys amongst their ranks then?
Or would you throw in your bets then with the overlords, laughing scornfully: how can the serfs ever succeed in their uprising?
I mean, look at the Commies, including China!
And serfs always get crushed for fertiliser whenever they try!
That would be true, of course, until serfs do overthrow overlords and dispose summarily of lackeys.
And then, history tending to be cyclic, today's serfs become tomorrow's overlords, and repetition kicks in.
Hi Alan and Limpeh,
Deletethanks for reading my rant Alan.....well, I noted Limpeh's previously sharing that following his bosses' brave new plann, he will soon by in champagne or....sh#t!!! Made me immediately think of the "risk taking" behaviour in the financial industry that everyone is beating their breast about.....but not nice to say lah, don't know Limpeh well enough to say that eh!
And doesn't it all tie in with Alan's previous comments that we each have to follow our own moral compass and not think that something is OK just becos everyone else is doing it?
Anyway at present the uprising is just a trickle of protest, with occupy wall street etc, and gahmens all over the world acquiring a little more bollocks to tackle the industry cos they are embolden by the serfs' indignation and its also a good diversion to heheh....their own incompetence in borrowing and spending too much (the Debt crisis).
But I think that the serf uprising is far far away if it ever comes....by which time Limpeh will have enough to retire in the Carribean or Bali or Geneva.....but in the unlikely event that his firm takes one risk too many, there is always show business!!!
I agree and disagree. I was raised by a Catholic family, but like you have suggested they took a hands off approach as regards to my faith. However they did get alarmed when in Pri 4 I wanted to be a Muslim and my classmate's mother actually wanted to adopt me, mainly because most of my friends were Malay at the time. I was more or less forced to abandon this idea, but I was very much into it until secondary school. (And yes it's true part of it was a culture of religious advise dished out by my Malay teacher during lessons, I took Malay as a second language). Until today I have a soft spot for Islam and devout Malay Muslims, who quietly go about doing their work and religious duty without any fuss, and have Malay friends who don't bother about my religion and me theirs, we get along swell. 1 influence has stood, I don't like pork.
ReplyDeleteAnyway in secondary school, I mixed less with Malays, and at 2 stages was brought to protestant churches. The first age (13-14) didn't work for some personal reasons and by the time I went to the second, I was above 16 and could understand things a bit clearer. That was Trinity Christian Church, (think CHC in the 80s). They too worshipped in Halls (WTC) and were building their own church. But what put me off, was the impetus to compel youths to follow their ways unquestioningly. Other religions were the devil's work, other churches too were wrong and like the first church i attended, the Catholic Church took a 'hell of a pasting' (pun intended) for idol worship and was taught to be the 'Whore of Abomination' in Revelations. Now because of my catholic background (although non practising). I was very put off by this. I know Catholics (I knew) weren't saints, but to describe them with such vile things were very unfair in my opinion.
The sudden 'bursting into tongues' during services was alarming. Here I am with my friend, next moment he or she would start talking in some foreign language, and say it's tongues and it's the Holy Spirit talking! But essentially what they were doing was trying to get young people into their lifestyle and ways, hoping we would naturally stick with them into adulthood and beyond. Like CHC, services were concert like, and yes we had to donate but the emphasis then was more to 'secure us' and hope we would bring other youths along. Of course every newbie would be strongly encouraged to accept Christ as his/her Saviour and with so much pressure almost all would say yes. (That's how CHC also boast of winning over thousands and thousands of souls). Technically as a Christian, I can't oppose this, doing so would be encouraging others to reject the Holy Spirit, a big sin if not the biggest in Christianity. But I think the method and the in your face thing is wrong. Anyway I only attended Trinity because I was interested in my friend's sister and because my friend was such a nice guy whose company I enjoyed, I was very naughty and he was so decent. Anyway when his sister said she didn't like smokers and drinkers, I knew my chances were slim to none, so that put off the church for me.
So the whole thing put me off religion until I finally decided in my 20s that Catholicism with it's more relaxed outlook and leaving the level of worship to individuals was the one that suited me best.
ReplyDeleteSo this where I agree and disagree. I agree that at 13-16 is very unsuitable for a child to be exposed entirely to religious doctrine without adult supervision, that there should be some approval by parents or guardians. But I disagree that parents must have the final say or no say (as in my case). My parents leaving me to my own devices, nearly meant me going into something far more radical. In the end, I did however end up following the choice they would have wanted me to take, but that's because the 2 churches I attended contradicted each other a lot and vehemently opposed the faith I was brought up in.
Had I attended just 1 or had their 'selling points' been a tad less 'hardcore', I think I would have followed blindly, not realising that there was much more than meets the eye, or that I should be more discerning in making my choice.
But in the same token I appreciated my parents letting me make my own decision. Religion should always be a personal choice. But I think the best would be them playing some sort of advisory role.
I think every church or religious organisation have a right to state their case and win people over, even youngsters. That usually is a core tenet ( spreading their faith). But the duty of the parent or guardian must be to advise, to warn and be advised of what's happening in these organisations. The final choice would remain that of the child, it can be at ages over 18, but also for those below, with the caveat that a review must be made when older and more exposure to what others are teaching, not just this 1 organisation.
Let me turn his around Sir - if you did have a child who wanted to do pursue a religion that you felt was bad for him/her at the tender age of 15 or 16 and you tried to intervene, only for the child to turn around and say, "my life, my religion, my choice, you can't stop me, you can decide what your religion is for yourself but not me" - how would you feel then?
DeleteI would feel that at that age, the parents should have a say as I wouldn't trust a child that young with important decisions, that's why parents have a say in most thing in a child's life from curfews to pocket money to choice of schools, friends etc. However, yeah once the child is an adult, then at 18 - the relationship is different.
Nonetheless, there is still that grey area as Singaporean men would do NS then spend a few more years in further education, which means they can be adults at the age of like 24 with no money, fully dependent on their parents for financial support as full time students - so they are old enough to be adults but financially still in that child-like state, dependent on their parents for everything. What then? I don't have a one size fits all answer for this - but it then up to the young adult to convince his/her parents that, "hey, I know what I am doing, trust me." And whether or not the parents are convinced depends v much on the daughter's/son's track record.
I think then the issue of supply is very important. Children at younger ages must be brought to heel by cutting off supply when they want to do things which the parents don't agree.
DeleteThis usually works, kids at that age for all their bluster know that without supply, they can't do things they want or join friends, and can usually be made to see sense when funding is cut or threatened.
Of course curfews as well is another tool.
Funny you say this about 24 year olds, I have 24 year old son (adopted, incidentally he's Muslim too and I have never imposed my beliefs on him) who is dependent on me still, and yes I cut off supply or limit it, when I disagree with the way he's doing things. Of course he's an adult and I sympathise with him, but he's gotta learn responsibility and sometimes the hard way is the better teacher.
If not good old fashion tongue lashing also works.
Btw, the Sir name is misnomer, actually this google account I registered as sirnelspruit, I dunno why only sir appears not nelspruit. I actually wanted to register as Nelspruit after the South African city that hosted some World Cup games, but the name was taken, and adding sir was recommended. So nelspruit would be a better way to call me than sir. I should be calling you sir, instead.
I acknowledge the power that parents still have over children until they come of age.
DeleteHowever, I would not treat them like dogs to be heeled, such that one day when they are set free, they can then turn their fangs on me and tear out my throat, for playing my control to the hilt.
Or would I expect loving licks for all that restraint?
Similarly, I wouldn't describe my withholding their privileges as cutting off supply, because all too easily this concept is abused, and I could just get away with 'accidentally' cutting off their basic rights as human beings!
Then when they are finally independent of me, they can just cut off their supply of rightful gratitude to me, saying, "You know all those years I showed affection to you? Yeah, that's only because you could've choked off my supplies any time!"
We reap what we sow.
Teach our children in a mercenary way, they can easily become mercenary in the end towards us.
Monkey see parents, monkey do.
I strongly feel the mindset is crucial.
If people use what I give back on me to hurt me, then I refuse the cycle of abuse.
If our kids use what I give back on me to hurt me, then I refuse the cycle of abuse.
Same actions, same outcome — they're brought back to the fold.
But if others see that as making them toe the line, I wish to emphasise teaching principled living by example.
If one does not see that difference in upbringing attitude counts, despite the same actions, then consider a gun shot for practice, and a gun fired at a living thing.
Same firearm, different poses, different outcomes.
But to answer your scenario about a 15 year old, I would absolutely forbid it to begin with, if he/she follows my decision then good. But if this creates too much tension, then I might relax it a bit, and only allow him to follow under certain conditions. Breaking it would mean no supply or curfew. Of course it's important to engage your kid, parents today must be more friend than parent. You must be aware of such things in his/her life the moment it enters, not wait until the last moment.
ReplyDeleteIf you had kept tabs on your kid and engaged them, then this issue can be easily handled when he or she is exposed. Your kid would trust your decision and not do things blindly, consulting you or advising you of what they have been told.
The internet is a wonderful tool and there many examples where a parent can explain his case by getting them to look at all these reviews.
It's only when you leave it too late that all the problems start.
Well, I feel that when one gets to one's late teens, when one emerges from childhood into adulthood - the onus is on the young person to prove to the parent that YES I am sensible, YES you can trust me, YES I am going to do the right thing. That trust and respect is earned through conduct and example, not something that is automatically given on one's 16th, 18th or 21st birthday. Heck, I see some adults in their 40s and 50s who have never ever done anything to earn the respect or trust of anyone.
DeleteI positively agree with Sir's (Nelspruit) espoused approach here, just as I disagree with the previous directions in the previous comment thread.
Delete—
I also agree with LIFT's 'earn trust and respect'.
I just want to point out that one's grown-up kid may simply earn the trust and respect of friends and others around him or her, and deliberately SNUB one as a parent and act contrary to expectations, simply because one has been too difficult a parent in his/her growing up years.
Until, that is, the child finally has his own children, and wises up to the sacrifices his/her parents went through.
Or maybe not even then, if the original growing-up relationship had been too harsh.
As parents then, the long-term investments failed from lack of heartfelt nurturing.
The more heavily a parent comes down on a child, the more defiant a child of unresolved resentment might hit back when finally an adult.
So careful, one reaps what one sows, parents included.
But when one regards one's kids fundamentally as true friends would, with love and respect yet unyielding integrity, then why do they reciprocate similarly even after growing up?
Hi LIFT,
ReplyDeleteJust to share, my first visit to an evangelical church as a teen (around 14 or 15 years old), more than 2 decades ago. From what I remember, there was psychological techniques used to pressurize teens to converting to Christianity.
http://winkingdoll.blogspot.ca/2012/07/my-teen-visit-to-evangelical-church.html
Cheers, WD.
Thanks WD, will have a read of it later.
DeleteYes, I read winking doll comments, and yes, that was the culture then. And probably is now too in many 'mega churches'. I remember just before this CHC saga broke in 2010, they used to visit my friends block (rented flat) and get all this old aunties and uncles to attend a Chinese service every Sunday. My friend is similarly from a poor background and has to depend on welfare for survival. These CHC guys would go round the whole block and persuade as many people to go for the Chinese service, they had hired a big bus to ferry them. After or before the service, they would provide a free meal. (Yes they were asked to donate during service but for this group, it was really voluntary, because many were poor to begin with)
DeleteMy friend went along and yes, was put under pressure to attend every week and become Christian. But he didn't like it because the whole services lasted around 2-3 hours and all this issues of salvation etc after sometime become too much for people like them to absorb in over 2 hours.
So every week they would come and try to get him and others to go. But the response became less enthusiastic as the weeks passed by, moreover I told my friend to stop attending, if it was too tiring. But without fail they would knock on his door every Sunday and then visit during the weekday to scold him for not attending and making him promise to attend on the Sunday next.
A short time later, the scandal broke and this CHC thing died a natural death as far as his block was concerned. The 2 things that struck me, was that it's highly likely, these people would have somehow been told to accept Christ during the visits and faced with such pressure it's no surprise that many would say yes. CHC then could trumpet to the whole world that they have 'won' another 50-100 or more souls depending on the no of blocks and buses. This would then be used as some justification to show their members and the larger public of their outreach, and for that matter now, the Crossover project with an astronomical sum of 339,000 souls now being bandied around, from Taiwan I think.
But the catch here, is that if another church came and did the same thing, that church would also claim to have won over the same number of souls. My friend is a classic case, there have been Christian people coming to his block for a number of years, some have genuinely helped, him and many others have attended their churches too, under compulsion or voluntary. I would assume that these churches would have definitely also claimed in some way or the other to winning over souls.
The moment you put the question and more or less make the person say yes, that's it, score another 1 for the good guys. Or to make things simpler, just count the number of new faces and state these are the new 'scores or victories'. But when you look deeper, you realise, hey, what's the big deal? Are these 'newly won scores' really sincere or understand fully, or have they already been chalked up by another church, and you're just sharing the score - tompang case. (In the police we had this policy, when a detective arrested someone, he would put the rest of the team members in the report, 'tompang case' as we called it, to show teamwork and help some other detective who has been unable to make an arrest, keep his scores up or show something for his work).
So don't be surprised if you were to question each and everyone of those 339,000 souls or any 'newly saved souls' at any of their events, a large bulk these 'souls' are actually tompang cases from other churches. I'm not saying all figures are wrong, I'm sure some were genuine converts.
Finally, the 2nd thing, now that CHC has stopped coming over, what would the view be of these people who once attended, all the ah sohs, ah peks etc? I'm sure you would find many like my friend being called back-sliders, or worse, supporters of the devil for rejecting the church's teaching!
Man, like yourself, this CHC thing is really captivating, I think I've commented more on this than the GE of 2011, where I actually had a few people I've known standing as candidates.
Delete1 point that bugs me and I hope gets answered is what has happened to Sun Ho, her Crossover project, her Hollywood stay and her musical chart busting rise to the top (if you wanna call it that)? All the focus has been on KH and his cronies, maybe because they are facing charges, but Sun has some answering to do me thinks.
After spending 23 million, what happens to her American music career? Does she plan another foray? Has she won over 'hundreds if not thousands of souls' for CHC, even for Christ for that matter? After getting 4 No 1 hits *according to the selling point to the CHC members*, has she retired from the big time? Heck even Madonna and others carried on into their 50s, or did some global tour or other. What happened to her mansion in Hollywood? Is is still rented by her? I gather she's back here for the past 2 years now more regularly. What about her American and Jamaican friends, her butler, maids, cars, Malibu vacation etc? Surely she's not leaving all that behind? After all she's an international star according to her faithful followers. Or has she decided to return and become a pastor again at CHC?
And what about this Crossover, is it now dead in the water, with it's sole talent (more beneficiary to me) now disappearing from the international stage and leaving those sinful Americans to wallow in their sins? Is anyone planning to Crossover in her place, or as 1 of her followers explained in FB, she does the initial foray and the CHC takes over? Is CHC opening a branch in LA or Hollywood, or members flying in and out of the US, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the poor?
Come come, Sun, time to speak out and explain and put back-sliders, and evil-doers like me to shame.